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Shuttleworth Proposes Overhaul of Desktop Notifications

Thelasko writes "Mark Shuttleworth is considering a controversial overhaul to the way Ubuntu manages notifications." I'm not thrilled with all of the changes proposed, which would mostly value simplicity over confusion at the expense of flexibility and permanence. But anything that would make more people read over and specifically approve the wording of error messages and other notifications is a good thing.

306 comments

  1. Huh? by timeOday · · Score: 5, Funny

    Can't I just dump a stack trace to stderr and be done with it?

    1. Re:Huh? by Eudial · · Score: 5, Funny

      Can't I just dump a stack trace to stderr and be done with it?

      But then the user might miss it! Clearly, when our programs crash, we must hook things up so that it automatically kills X11, opens up vim, splits the screen into subscreens with a stack trace, dmesg, hexdump of the core, etc.

      --
      GAAH! MY PRINTER IS ON FIRE!!! PUT IT OUT! PUT IT OUT!
    2. Re:Huh? by calmofthestorm · · Score: 5, Funny

      Doesn't windows have that feature?

      Sorry for the troll, couldn't resist;)

      --
      93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
    3. Re:Huh? by byolinux · · Score: 2, Informative

      I use emacs you insensitive clod! We've had that feature for years!

    4. Re:Huh? by gzipped_tar · · Score: 3, Funny

      But... but you must make sure the trace dump comes in pretty, anti-aliased, glossy fonts!

      --
      Colorless green Cthulhu waits dreaming furiously.
    5. Re:Huh? by DittoBox · · Score: 1

      I don't want to have to use a plush voodoo keyboard to get to it though.

      --
      Good. Cheap. Fast. Pick Two.
    6. Re:Huh? by sgt+scrub · · Score: 1

      you mean like tail -f /var/log/syslog right?

      --
      Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
    7. Re:Huh? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2, Funny

      It does, but the default color scheme for Vim-win32 port they've used is blue. This, combined with the perceived inability of the casual user to interact with it in any way and receive any response to one's activities other than another annoying beep is what led Windows users to name this feature the "Blue Screen of Death".

    8. Re:Huh? by johny42 · · Score: 2, Funny

      I wonder if anyone's ever tried :wq on BSOD. It might just work...

  2. KDE 4 anyone? by brunes69 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This looks to me almost exactly the same way KDE 4 notifications work. Just a slight change in the bubble look.

    1. Re:KDE 4 anyone? by ndansmith · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It also looks almost exactly like Growl for OS X.

    2. Re:KDE 4 anyone? by 3vi1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You're right. I'm running Kubuntu 9.04a2 right now, and this is how notifications are done - right down to the colors.

      I'm not saying it's a bad thing to add them to Gnome - it would probably even help when running KDE apps under Gnome and vice/versa as long as they have a standardized API.

      HOPEfully, Shuttleworth recognizes that this is *not* new and can make it play nice with KDE instead of having his guys create a completely different standard.

    3. Re:KDE 4 anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Except with Growl the user can dismiss the notification, and (if specified) use the notification to go to the program/document that issued it.

    4. Re:KDE 4 anyone? by swillden · · Score: 5, Informative

      HOPEfully, Shuttleworth recognizes that this is *not* new and can make it play nice with KDE instead of having his guys create a completely different standard.

      In the article, Shuttleworth says they're working with KDE.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    5. Re:KDE 4 anyone? by FictionPimp · · Score: 1

      Exactly what I thought. Just with less features.

    6. Re:KDE 4 anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So why not just use Growl? It's mature and full of win.

    7. Re:KDE 4 anyone? by vigour · · Score: 3, Funny

      HOPEfully, Shuttleworth recognizes that this is *not* new and can make it play nice with KDE instead of having his guys create a completely different standard.

      In the article, Shuttleworth says they're working with KDE.

      What? you actually RTF? I thought people stopped doing that here around 2004?

    8. Re:KDE 4 anyone? by NotBorg · · Score: 2, Funny

      I propose the new standard be called I. It's half way between G and K.

      All in favor say I.

      All apposed say G or K depending on your preferred religious background.

      --
      I want this account deleted.
    9. Re:KDE 4 anyone? by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      That's just his way of attaching himself to other people's work.

      Few KDE developers seem to think Shuttleworth does much of anything for KDE

    10. Re:KDE 4 anyone? by djcapelis · · Score: 3, Insightful

      > In the article, Shuttleworth says they're working with KDE.

      Unfortunately their track record of actually doing this is very bad.

      So I expect them to do what they always do, which is notice a problem that exists in GNOME that KDE has had a sensible solution to for quite some time and then propose a GNOME-centric standard like libnotify (which is what they're doing) and encourage it's use everywhere. What's more annoying is that the solution they end up implementing often ends up being worse than what existed in KDE. Sometimes KDE then ends up adopting the now dominant cross-platform standard and has to do various tools to work around the braindamage that's been caused.

      (For instance, see how qdbus is the only thing that makes using dbus actually bearable because it basically provides a dcop like interface to dbus.)

      It is, to say the least, frustrating.

      --
      I touch computers in naughty places
    11. Re:KDE 4 anyone? by darkpixel2k · · Score: 3, Funny

      In the article, Shuttleworth says they're working with KDE.

      What? you actually RTF? I thought people stopped doing that here around 2004?

      Back in 2005, they posted an article that we're supposed to start reading the articles again. Didn't you read it?

      --
      There's no place like ::1 (I've completed my transition to IPv6)
    12. Re:KDE 4 anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the *what*?

    13. Re:KDE 4 anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what they always do, which is notice a problem that exists in GNOME that KDE has had a sensible solution to for quite some time and then propose a GNOME-centric standard like libnotify

      Where by "GNOME-centric" you presumably mean "written in C".

      Seriously, the KDE project has only itself to blame: if it created portable libraries that weren't written in a bastardised version of C++, then maybe those would be more likely to be adopted as standards. Since KDE insists on inventing its wheels in non-portable ways, it's hardly surprising that the rest of the world says "nice idea, but we'll write our own" and reinvents them portably instead.

    14. Re:KDE 4 anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      DBus is still somewhat slower than DCop but I'm sure there must be advantages to using it.

    15. Re:KDE 4 anyone? by vigour · · Score: 1

      In the article, Shuttleworth says they're working with KDE.

      What? you actually RTF? I thought people stopped doing that here around 2004?

      Back in 2005, they posted an article that we're supposed to start reading the articles again. Didn't you read it?

      No I was too busy not reading articles on digg to read articles on slashdot.

      There was me thinking digg would be the new slashdot, silly me.

    16. Re:KDE 4 anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean their ONE KDE guy?

    17. Re:KDE 4 anyone? by djcapelis · · Score: 1

      > Where by "GNOME-centric" you presumably mean "written in C".

      Yeah that's actually not what I mean at all.

      --
      I touch computers in naughty places
    18. Re:KDE 4 anyone? by djcapelis · · Score: 1

      It's apparently more robust and there are some actual advantages in places, but the actual interface was terrible and the system was utterly unusable until the KDE guys ported their toolset to it and gave it the same interface DCOP had.

      --
      I touch computers in naughty places
    19. Re:KDE 4 anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I propose the new standard be called I. It's half way between G and K.

      iThink that iLetter has been iTaken

  3. Should do expirementation in Fedora by pembo13 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    They should have the devs do the experimentation work in Fedora, and then incorporate the final product into Ubuntu and others. At the very least it would be good for cross distro relations.

    --
    "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
    1. Re:Should do expirementation in Fedora by Nursie · · Score: 2, Informative

      Why?

      They consume debian, not fedora.

      It might be good for cross-distro relations but it seems a bit much to force them onto another, fairly well separated distro just for that.

    2. Re:Should do expirementation in Fedora by Sir_Lewk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because Fedora almost always does what they do, only a release before them?

      --
      "linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
    3. Re:Should do expirementation in Fedora by nicolas.kassis · · Score: 1

      lies

    4. Re:Should do expirementation in Fedora by Sir_Lewk · · Score: 2, Funny

      What an eloquent rebuttal.

      --
      "linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
    5. Re:Should do expirementation in Fedora by paradoja · · Score: 1

      As eloquent as the original argument, isn't it?

    6. Re:Should do expirementation in Fedora by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd have used mod points to mod it up either way.

      It's kind of funny because it very clearly and tersely reflects an opinion. You have yours he has his.

      Also, it's all that is needed. Your post was a bit trollish because you didn't back it up with much of anything substantial. You just loosely stated an opinion and it was loosely countered without excess fluff.

      You didn't get it, so you retorted with something you hope will get you nerd snob appeal points.

      You end up losing because it looks like you took it personally. Welcome to the Internet, you're not supposed to give a shit what other people say.

      Now you're in a real pickle because I've no doubt pissed you off too. So now you have a choice to respond to me and let me know I got your panties in a bunch, or let it slide.

      I'll let you off the hook, I guess. I'll AC this post since no one has to respond to ACs... unless they want to.... nudge nudge wink wink.

  4. confiuration by oliverthered · · Score: 3, Insightful

    a little off topic, but some configuration tools would be nice. You know for the general public. until ubuntu can do that it's going to be no where near desktop ready for most people.

    --
    thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    1. Re:confiuration by Nursie · · Score: 2, Informative

      Umm, what are you having trouble with? Which bit is missing for you? (genuine question)

      Gnome on Ubuntu has a whole load of stuff accessible from the System menu. The only time I touch the text files at the back is when I'm experimenting with them. For ordinary users there already are a set of admin guis that are pretty consistent and powerful.

    2. Re:confiuration by camperdave · · Score: 1

      I've been using Ubuntu for a year or so. Never edited a config file by hand (exept for /etc/hosts, but that was before I saw the gui for it). Some configuration stuff is not where I first went looking for it, but it all seems to be there.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    3. Re:confiuration by QuantumRiff · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I've had a pain in the ass time doing dual monitors. Not to mention, one of my monitors can pivot (rotate) 90 degrees.. (its nice to see 2 whole pages of text when your typing on a "long screen", instead of a widescreen) but last time I looked, there is no easy way to adjust that either..

      --

      What are we going to do tonight Brain?
    4. Re:confiuration by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      No wonder you have a pain in your ass! Most people have a hard time shoving one monitor up there, never mind two! And then rotating it? You're hardcore.

    5. Re:confiuration by mweather · · Score: 1, Informative

      That's not Ubuntu's job, it's Gnome's. Try KDE if you want more configuration tools.

    6. Re:confiuration by Aphoxema · · Score: 1
      --
      "Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
    7. Re:confiuration by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not the Ubuntu way. The Ubuntu way is to treat your users like idiots, and hide everything from them. It's almost as bad as OSX.

    8. Re:confiuration by Nursie · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Dual monitor config can be a pain, it's true.

      The nvidia-settings app (which should be available from the systems menu) is the easiest way I've found to do this on nvidia systems. On intel chips I've had trouble too. If you want different resolutions on each you can be in for even more pain.

      Changing res without needing to restart X has definitely got better, but I'm not sure how you'd go about autodetecting and switching screen orientation on a screen like that.

      Agreed, this area needs work.

    9. Re:confiuration by windsurfer619 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Maybe you haven't used the latest version of Ubuntu, but Intrepid has got a very nice set up for configuring monitors. There's a rotation drop-down menu that lets you chose any orientation, and each monitor is labeled and freely positionable. It also gives you the option to mirror the screens if you want.

    10. Re:confiuration by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, that's the card manufacturer's fault at the moment, for producing non-xrandr or non-xserver1.5 compatible drivers. For nvidia, you need nvidia-settings; for ati, you need amdcccle; and for intel chips, the System->Screen Resolution config applet should work the right way, because intel aren't being asshats.

      On the ati cards I've used, the driver is so borked wrt randr that I have to turn off Gnome's randr autodetection, via gconf-editor at /apps/gnome-settings-daemon/plugins/xrandr/active. After that, enabling ati's BigDesktop mode actually works, and rotation works fine, but is slow.

      The quick 'n dirty way is to learn the xrandr tool, like 'xrandr -o right' for rotating a display clockwise. It's pretty easy to make shortcuts for these in the Gnome panel or menu, too. Not ideal, but that's not Ubuntu's fault.

    11. Re:confiuration by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      xrandr --output LVDS --right-of VGA --mode 1280x960 --rotation left or some such; you work out a handful of these for your typical configurations, and toss them in an FVWM menu. At least that's what I do with my Eee 701, which gets used 3 ways: alone, with an external monitor, and with an external monitor (here the Eee is below the monitor), keyboard, and mouse (here the Eee is rotated on its side, next to the monitor).

    12. Re:confiuration by tylerni7 · · Score: 1

      I know a lot of you are saying that the GUI tool works for multiple monitors on Ubuntu... but I'm guessing you haven't tried it, or at least not much.
      I currently have 3 monitors, all different sizes, and one of them rotated, each as an independent X screen. The automatic configurations can't come close to figuring that out.
      Two monitors on one graphics card can be set up, but all of the things I have tried doing just mess up configuration file.

      However, the OP said for ordinary users, there are GUIs to configure thing. I don't think that most people really run more than one monitor.
      Also, it takes a bit of reading documentation, but editing the xorg.conf file by hand isn't that hard, and Linux offers a whole lot more options for desktop configuration with multiple monitors than most OSs.

      (Also, QuantumRiff, if you add the line Option "Rotate" "CW" #or CCW to the screen subsection in xorg.conf, it will rotate that screen. You could use XrandR as other people suggested, but I've not had any luck with that)

    13. Re:confiuration by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Thirded. That said, I have a custom ACPI script for my T61 that I use for the screen event that lets me do all kinds of nifty stuff with my Intel X3100 and xrandr, just using an xdialog prompt to select presentation or multi-monitor modes and such. Gotta make sure that there's a large enough virtual size, and force allocate more video memory, but it works alright.

    14. Re:confiuration by orielbean · · Score: 2, Insightful

      it's easier now with LCD vs CRT.

    15. Re:confiuration by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Oh man. He did say "doing two monitors"... O_o

    16. Re:confiuration by FishWithAHammer · · Score: 1

      Well, that's the card manufacturer's fault at the moment, for producing non-xrandr or non-xserver1.5 compatible drivers.

      Wrong answer. As far as the end user is concerned, it's Ubuntu's fault, and I have a hard time disagreeing with them.

      (Yes, Linux is being held to a different standard than Windows. You get that kind of scrutiny when you're the little guy. Sucks, but true.)

      --
      "You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
    17. Re:confiuration by FishWithAHammer · · Score: 1

      The quick 'n dirty way is to learn the xrandr tool, like 'xrandr -o right' for rotating a display clockwise. It's pretty easy to make shortcuts for these in the Gnome panel or menu, too. Not ideal, but that's not Ubuntu's fault.

      Oh. And this is Ubuntu's fault, too. Sorry, but them's the breaks.

      --
      "You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
    18. Re:confiuration by FishWithAHammer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And this is acceptable to you? This is exactly what you shouldn't have to do.

      --
      "You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
    19. Re:confiuration by mdf356 · · Score: 1

      The xorg.conf that NVidia spat out didn't work. It had a one-line error that I had to fix by hand after some google search (it put in 'Screen 0 "Screen0" 0 0" instead of 'Screen 0 "Screen0"', and with such a small change my video would no longer come up). Then I had to put the Rotate CCW line in by hand too.

      But I too have dual-head with one rotated in Ubuntu. After fixing nVidia's crap.

      Oh, and when I just had one monitor and I tried to rotate it with the System panel it didn't work either. I forget what happened exactly but I had a bear of a time getting something visible so I could fix it.

      --
      Terrorist, bomb, al Qaeda, nuclear, yellowcake, kill, assassinate. Carnivore is dead... long live Echelon.
    20. Re:confiuration by MSG · · Score: 1

      GNOME has a nice tool that allows you to configure the position, resolution, and rotation of your monitors. On a Fedora system, it's under System->Preferences->Hardware->Screen Resolution.

      It seems to be conventional wisdom that Ubuntu is easier to use than other GNU/Linux distributions, but I have far fewer issues with my Fedora (GNOME) desktop (and laptop) than the Ubuntu users that I know. For that matter, I have fewer issues than the OS X and Windows users that I know. ;)

    21. Re:confiuration by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 2, Insightful



      I'm the end user. I'm far more loyal to my software vendor than I am to my hardware vendor. If Nvidias hardware won't work with Ubuntu because they want to keep playing stupid tricks with their binary drivers, then it is not fit for purchase, and I will buy from someone else.

      Pretty cut and dried.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    22. Re:confiuration by blincoln · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Also, it takes a bit of reading documentation, but editing the xorg.conf file by hand isn't that hard

      It's not editing it that's hard. It's figuring out what to put in it. Especially if it's broken your GUI so you can't use a web browser to search for the arcane settings that your monitor requires. No, lynx doesn't count.

      What surprises me is that there doesn't seem to be a utility/online database of various monitors and their specs. If the autodetection doesn't work, you're basically on your own and have to track down the horizontal sync and vertical refresh rate ranges, which is stupid.

      --
      "...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
    23. Re:confiuration by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if you have nvidia card search synaptic for nvidia-settings

    24. Re:confiuration by Dan+Ost · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But by learning to do it this way, he's not hostage to whatever configuration GUI is packaged with whatever distro he happens to use.

      There's value in learning this stuff even if you don't *need* it.

      --

      *sigh* back to work...
    25. Re:confiuration by tylerni7 · · Score: 1

      I have yet to see Linux fail to detect every monitor that is plugged in correctly. Usually if you have multiple plugged in, you can just reboot with one to get online and then try to fix the problem. (Although I usually just use links myself if I am in that situation, I don't know why that shouldn't count...)

      The GUI tools in Linux do have a drop down list that you can select the make and model of your monitor from, and it will get the data it needs from that. There is probably the same list somewhere in a command line utility, but I don't know.
      Any semi-recent monitor should communicate all the details to your computer with I2C anyways, so I guess the developers figured it wasn't necessary.

    26. Re:confiuration by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      And if I where him...I wouldn't touch Intrepid with a ten foot pole. While Intrepid improved on some things, other things took a step backwards. Damn you nm-applet and pptp, curse you to hell.

      Actually it's not all that bad, it just requires some more work then 8.04 did. The monitor stuff is nice, but usually I go with ATI/Nvidia depending on the card I have. I'd suggest waiting for 9.04, but hey that's me.

    27. Re:confiuration by windsurfer619 · · Score: 1

      I guess it's just luck, then. nm-applet has been fine for me and all my friends. I don't even know what pptp is.

    28. Re:confiuration by Doctor+O · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and said monitor configuration tool failed to display *any* set of usable or even standard resolutions for me on any machine on Ubuntu *ever*. Usually it has only one weird setting, that being 864 x 472 or something to this effect, at a whopping 60 Hz. I have no idea why this is the case, Kubuntu works just fine on the same machines.

      Coming from FreeBSD I use hand-written Xorg.conf files anyway, but I always wondered if I was the only one and why such an obvious bug won't get fixed. That's what Mr. Shuttlewise should be working on, instead of plagiarizing Growl and acting as if it were a novel idea.

      --
      Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk?
    29. Re:confiuration by atraintocry · · Score: 1

      It can be pretty hellish in Windows, too. Granted, it's nothing on the level of having to set up configs for X, but I think dual monitor setups are one of those things that by their nature will never be pretty. My Mac gets it right on the whole as far as resolutions but there's still plenty of issues with individual apps and where they choose to put their dialogs.

      If you're saying it's difficult because it's the CLI, I have to disagree. Confusing GUIs are very easy to make and *all* graphical OSes are full of them. What you trade in fanciness at the shell you gain in precision.

      Ever notice how Excel balks when you try to save a CSV file, then prevents you with multiple yes/no dialogs, then acts like you never saved the file when you go to close? (Clearly, MS Office is not ready for the desktop.)

      I mean, I agree with you on the whole. There's plenty of room for improvement. Configuring X by hand is like being transported back to pre-plug and play days. But dual monitor setups is one of the first places I'm willing to cut any OS some slack.

    30. Re:confiuration by von_rick · · Score: 1

      nm-applet has been a pain in Intrepid. When you have to manually set the network parameters, it converts the subnet mask to a netmask format and nothing you do will get it to work. I think there is a newer version out which addresses that.

      --

      Face your daemons!

    31. Re:confiuration by von_rick · · Score: 1

      There's value in learning this stuff even if you don't *need* it.

      Perhaps FishWithAHammer is in the housewife/grandma category :p

      --

      Face your daemons!

    32. Re:confiuration by Myopic · · Score: 1

      Yepp. And there's also value to not learning this stuff.

    33. Re:confiuration by laddiebuck · · Score: 1

      Are you off your head? This is pretty much how Windows does it, except Windows doesn't let you choose rotation. No other solution would meet users' needs either -- they must be able to choose the relative orientation and dimensions of the monitors. How on earth otherwise do you propose doing it -- magical incantations, or a valet standing next to you?

    34. Re:confiuration by laddiebuck · · Score: 1

      I apologise, the new Ajax shit confused me, I thought you were replying to comment #26213261. Let me retract what I said. :)

    35. Re:confiuration by pionzypher · · Score: 1

      pptp is used for for vpn. nm-applet simply refused to work when trying to configure a connection for my job. I ended up editing the configs by hand and run pon to start it.

      I assume that is what your parent was referring to. I've had other flakiness with nm-applet, from wireless to crashes. These things are apparent on all my systems.

      That said, installing wpa_supplicant solved most of my wireless issues, and the vpn works. 8.04 has a few outstanding bugs, but overall, the configs are pretty damn nice.

      --
      I'll believe in corporations having personhood when Texas executes one... - advocate_one
    36. Re:confiuration by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OMG, after I finished imagining that it I laughed so hard that now everthing hurts >.

    37. Re:confiuration by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um, why, exactly?
      I keep hearing things like this from people who, it seems, would prefer one short and simple command to be replaced with some awful, ugly, inaccessible, confusing GUI app that adds no value, hides half the options from you, and makes guesses about what you want which are *always* wrong - but these people never give any indication of *why*, beyond 'well, Windows users are afraid of words and typing'.

    38. Re:confiuration by vigour · · Score: 1

      That's not Ubuntu's job, it's Gnome's. Try KDE if you want more configuration tools.

      Why were you modded troll? You are right, if you want a ridiculous(-ly good) amount of GUI config options use KDE. However, I'm lazy and used to Gnome, so I stick with either Gnome/Openbox, or LXDE, which also uses Openbox.

    39. Re:confiuration by David+Gerard · · Score: 1

      FWIW, I'm finding Kubuntu Intrepid (KDE4) way superior to the KDE4 I was running before on Hardy.

      KDE 4.1 is still not IMO consumer-ready, I still need to sysadmin it too much, but it's highly usable and I'd never choose to go back to KDE3. I'm very much looking forward to KDE 4.2.

      --
      http://rocknerd.co.uk
    40. Re:confiuration by ancientt · · Score: 0

      Absofrickinloutly! People get used to using the tools that they've painstakingly learned over the years and think "Hey, I rock! More people should be like me." Okay, fine, I can agree that a good set of platform independent skills are useful, but it is a philosophy, not a solution to a specific problem.

      When I sit down on an unfamiliar machine, I expect to be able to do some things without having to consult a help file. The pointer moves up when I move the mouse toward the back of the desk, it doesn't have to be that way but it makes it easier to start using it.

      User friendly means that I can guess how to get what I want. I love vim (and tolerate vi) but that doesn't mean I want to edit a text file every time I want to do something. My servers may not have gui's but when I sit down to browse the web, I don't want to need to configure a text file for my browser to work within normal ranges.

      If your program doesn't do what people need it to do and they have difficulty fixing it, then it is your fault and not theirs. I'm looking at you Firefox! Opera, Konqueror and Firefox 2 show pictures correctly, but not FF3 and they say it is the fault of the X config, it is not a bug. Bull.

      There is no File menu in Office 2007? What kind of crack smoke fest led tot hat brilliant decision? Do you know how many people have needed me to point it out to them weeks, WEEKS! after upgrading from Office 2003?

      Make your program do these things in this order:

      1. It must actually work
      2. It should be easy to use correctly
      3. It should be hard to use wrong
      4. Make it efficient and/or beautiful to your own preferences
      --
      B) Eliminate all the stupid users. This is frowned upon by society.
    41. Re:confiuration by David+Gerard · · Score: 2, Informative

      Unfortunately, when the original poster said "Nvidia card" I went "uh, yep."

      Nvidia is responsible for, what, 50% of blue screens on Windows? And anyone expects the Linux drivers to be better?

      Intel's drivers are fantastic, which is just a little to do with employing Keith Packard to do nothing but hack on X all day long. AMD/ATI will get there in due course as they negotiate the tricky straits between open source expectations and the lawyers. Nvidia will only respond to market pressure and Nouveau ever making it out of alpha.

      --
      http://rocknerd.co.uk
    42. Re:confiuration by David+Gerard · · Score: 1

      That's GNOME. There's a reason I use KDE: it doesn't feel like a two-dimensional straightjacket.

      --
      http://rocknerd.co.uk
    43. Re:confiuration by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 1

      When I sit down on an unfamiliar machine, I expect to be able to do some things without having to consult a help file.

      Tough shit. Expectations are a bitch, aren't they?

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    44. Re:confiuration by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tried XRandR?

    45. Re:confiuration by NotBorg · · Score: 1

      Just do a few searches for tutorials. Visit a few forums and see what gets stickied as solutions to common problems.

      Every time the solution involves editing some file and/or opening a terminal window... you're on to something that is not user friendly.

      Windows tutorials start with "click" and Linux tutorials start with "At the sh prompt type..."

      In a recent survey the a text editor is still the number one way to configure X. Sure the survey may not reflect all users, but if I were to guess I'd say that there are still quote a few users who end up using a text editor (or terminal) and not just for configuring X.

      Think about all the times you've seen the solution "sudo apt-get". Why wasn't the user asked to go click something? These are the type of things that are still kicking Linux in the face.

      I'm telling you, if you are curious what sucks about a product, work the general broad access tech support. Places that noob users find easily like linuxquestions.org and Ubuntu forums are a good place to look.

      --
      I want this account deleted.
    46. Re:confiuration by Yfrwlf · · Score: 1

      You just have to be careful with who you blame. Software vendors are trying to make money too, so don't just assume they're saints. ATI gave Ubuntu "exclusive drivers" at one point even, so it's possible that they could team up and make an API that Nvidia would be slower to adopt or whatnot. Plus, of course, there's inter-distro wars going on even though it's all open source, but even so there are ways of making things more proprietary, at the very least for average users who wouldn't know how to compile stuff.

      Regardless though, I agree with you, Nvidia seems to be be much slower in trying to work with any kind of Linux standards, but maybe those standards need more organization, too. Careful who you blame. ^^

      --
      Promote true freedom - support standards and interoperability.
    47. Re:confiuration by Nursie · · Score: 1

      I upgraded to Intrepid. Xorg refused to start when my laptop was in nVidia mode (I have a weird vaio with two vidcards and a switch) and the machine was in the dock. Switching nVidia drivers did nothing, using old ones, up to date, new beta drivers, anything.

      Annoyed me so much I went back to my first love, Debian, which I've ben using on and off for over a decade now. Everything works just fine :)

    48. Re:confiuration by Elrond,+Duke+of+URL · · Score: 1

      It's also a pain because finding useful info online for this is very difficult. This is because so much work as been done and a lot of help you find on the Net is already outdated. There's also some confusion/problems regarding temporary versus permanent dual monitor config.

      At work I've got a workstation with an ATI Radeon X300 video card and there are two panels plugged in (one on the DVI plug, the other on the VGA plug). The panels are also different resolutions. Trying to get this dual setup working was a huge pain.

      Much info pointed to Xinerama, but that seems mostly obsolete. Fortunately, unlike Nvidia's drivers, the ATI ones (OSS or proprietary) seem to do configuration the "X way" as opposed to their own way. I tried again and again to configure this in the xorg.conf file. I wanted it to use both screens by default, at start, and for all users.

      The alternative was to use the Xrandr extension, but that only works while X is running. On the bright side, it worked beautifully. The xrandr tools found both screens and configured them properly even with the different resolutions. But... it does not persist from session to session and each user must do it themselves.

      My eventual solution was to figure out the proper set of xrandr command line calls and put them in a script. This script is then executed when gdm starts. So far this is working, but it's hardly elegant.

      --
      Elrond, Duke of URL
      "This is the most fun I've had without being drenched in the blood of my enemies!"-Sam&Max
    49. Re:confiuration by donscarletti · · Score: 1

      Yeah, Ubuntu only has graphical configuration tools for things like Network, Printers, Users etc. If you want to set up something like BIND to serve up DNS for your domain, or Apache to host a little bit of PHP you need to edit configuration files by hand. What's more, other common day-to-day tasks have no graphical interface such as compiling and linking c source code and forwarding ports over an SSH session. The Graphical User Interface to nmap is very rudimentary, without even providing a port scanning wizard; finger and traceroute are almost as bad. If I asked my mother to reverse engineer some open source drivers for my nVidia 9800 she wouldn't even know how to disassemble the binary driver without using the command line. It's clearly not ready for the common user.

      --
      When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
    50. Re:confiuration by ancientt · · Score: 1

      Not really, not for me anyway. Developers who make software which is easy to use get paid better than those who don't, so my expectations are usually fulfilled.

      EditPlus and Winzip are great examples. There are dozens of text editors and compression tools, many free, but people still pay for the ones that are easy to use.

      My ego may know few bounds (check my previous posts) and you may enjoy a feeling of superiority (I checked your previous posts) from learning complex software, but most people would rather get a job done easily than feed their superiority complex and they vote with their wallets.

      I've developed a little in C and Java, but when it comes time to do something quick, I use perl, bash and php. I've done LFS and Gentoo from Stage 1, but when I want a quick gui, I boot Slax. Objectively I can see that my programs are better with more complex languages and my system is faster and more efficient when custom built, but 95% of the time, I choose easy.

      --
      B) Eliminate all the stupid users. This is frowned upon by society.
    51. Re:confiuration by FishWithAHammer · · Score: 1

      Nvidia is responsible for, what, 50% of blue screens on Windows?

      Never had a single one on any of my hardware. Then again, I've never had an ATI driver bluescreen either, so I guess I'm lucky.

      And anyone expects the Linux drivers to be better?

      An end user can be forgiven for expecting Linux to work correctly, as it's so often touted to do. If it doesn't, the end user will blame "Linux", not nVidia. You are attempting to offer technical reasons to an end user. That's simply stupid of you; an end user doesn't care.

      --
      "You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
    52. Re:confiuration by David+Gerard · · Score: 1

      "Never had a single one on any of my hardware."

      That number's Microsoft's, and Nvidia noticeably failed to deny it.

      I do realise an end user shouldn't expected to care. They expect their hideous shit to just work. And they expect a pony. With stripes. And a propellor.

      --
      http://rocknerd.co.uk
    53. Re:confiuration by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      let me see,

      Wireless card. Didn't autodetect, download (or even point me in the direction of) the bytecode and install.
      Samba. Had to manually edit the files.
      Etc....

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    54. Re:confiuration by Nursie · · Score: 1

      There are a lot of weird little things like this around. I have a startup script that copies one of several xorg.conf files into place depending on what hardware gets detected, as my laptop has two graphics cards and behaves differently in its dock to not in its dock.

      Getting it to run two screens at different resolutions *without* coming up with some virtual screen real estate that encompassed both screens and allowed you to move stuff into areas you couldn't display, that was a problem. A problem Xinerama addressed pretty perfectly, though of course the 3d effects and Xinerama didn't work together. When I upgraded to Ubuntu Intrepid it seems that Xinerama was gone. That's another of the reasons I went back to Debian.

    55. Re:confiuration by chhamilton · · Score: 1

      Assuming you've got a reasonably modern version of X, and a somewhat capable video card, then xrandr does exactly what you're looking for. Mind you, it's a command-line application, but it's definitely not hard to use. A frequent Ubuntu contributor made a nice little GTK GUI front-end to it called urandr. This does exactly what you want (configure per-output rotation, resolution, etc). The only caveat is that you need to have configured X to have a big enough virtual screen size (x.org, Screen section, Display subsection, Virtual keyword) to support any anticipated output resolutions (combined size of the entire desktop across all outputs).

    56. Re:confiuration by FishWithAHammer · · Score: 1

      Well, when you sell your product (Linux, in this case) as "super reliable" and "solid" and "never crashes or reboots like Windows"...meh. You get what you deserve.

      --
      "You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
    57. Re:confiuration by FishWithAHammer · · Score: 1

      Except that that's not what an end user says, that's what a Linux geek says.

      An end user says "what? This doesn't work? Screw this, where's my Windows?".

      --
      "You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
    58. Re:confiuration by David+Gerard · · Score: 1

      Indeed. Apple reliability will take Apple hardware control.

      --
      http://rocknerd.co.uk
    59. Re:confiuration by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 1

      I am an end user, not a geek of any sort. And I spend a hell of a lot more money on computers than the average man on the street, so I'm a particularly important end user. The majority of my family and friends use either Linux desktops or Mac laptops. Most people I know avoid Windows these days if they can manage it. This might not be the Year of the Linux Desktop... but it's sure as hell the Year of Broken Windows.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    60. Re:confiuration by FishWithAHammer · · Score: 1

      In other words...you're not an end user, you're a Linux geek. Thank you for agreeing with me.

      --
      "You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
    61. Re:confiuration by FishWithAHammer · · Score: 1

      Pretty much. (Though I refuse to use OS X on my own machines--it's annoying as hell, IMO.)

      --
      "You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
    62. Re:confiuration by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 1

      No, I'm not agreeing with you.

      I've never compiled anything from source. I've never hacked anything to do with my install. I don't enjoy mucking around with code to figure out how it works. I don't enjoy mucking around with config files to tweak things. I don't have a beard, and I'm not fat. I'm good at talking to people. I never had any trouble meeting women. I have friends, and a girlfriend. I have outside interests that have nothing to do with computers, like music and athletics.

      I'm not a Linux geek. I just use it, because it's superior, it's free, and I can work with confidence that some money grubbing corporation isn't going to remotely sabotage my computer.

      So, basically, I'm saying... fuck off smartass.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    63. Re:confiuration by FrankieBaby1986 · · Score: 1

      Frequently when I restart my computer (most often while connected to a USB dock with audio) my volume control forgets its setting. Meaning I end up with volume buttons that do nothing and so I need to change the default mixer setting.

      Ok, minor inconvenience maybe, but where is it?

      System->Prefs->Sound? (here it is!)

      System->Prefs->Default Soundcard? (sounds right, but its not!)

      System->Prefs->Volume Control? (nope)

      System->Prefs->Multimedia System Selector? (nope)

      Also related, but more obviously seperate is:
      System->Prefs->Pulse Audio Preferences.

      Some degree of unification of settings need to occur. All these options need to be consolidated and put in one, sensible place.

      --
      ERROR: SIG NOT FOUND (A)bort, (R)etry, (F)ail?:
    64. Re:confiuration by steeviant · · Score: 1

      Just try setting up dual monitors in Mac OS X, No system preferences doesn't count... no particular reason why, it just doesn't count.

      You have to set them up using a teletype machine connected to a usb serial converter that doesn't have OS X drivers, and use MDA monitors too, because I said so... and you have to do it using only a mouse because keyboards don't count.

      and you have to do it blindfolded because eyes don't count either.

      In fact you have to do it with both your hands amputated before you die of blood-loss because, inexplicably hands don't count either.

      See how you can engineer any ridiculous crap you want by setting up a stupid scenario, then claiming stuff "doesn't count".

    65. Re:confiuration by steeviant · · Score: 1

      let me see...

      My Linksys USB wireless adaptor was detected and configured DHCP instantly in Ubuntu, no setup required at all.

      Samba, ftp, scp all work fine after point and click installation in syntaptic without any additional setup.

      Windows XP on the other hand has only a handful of included drivers, requires all sorts of pointing and clicking to enable public SMB sharing and is incapable of sharing by ftp or smb limiting it to LAN sharing only.

      Every time I want to install an application in Windows I have to visit a different website, download a file in some random compression format, possibly extract it somewhere before attempting to install it, then click "Next" about 20 times in a row, and then search for a menu that is named after the software's author rather than the application I just installed before I can run it.

      To top it off *I* then have to keep each individual application up to date or put up with *another* program running in the systray for that purpose...

      Etc.

      Face it, Windows just isn't ready for the desktop.

    66. Re:confiuration by Nursie · · Score: 1

      That's the bit that gets me, this virtual screen stuff. I don't like having a box drawn around my monitors, I want my screen resolutions to be the desktop,odd shaped and lumpy as it is.

      Otherwise you end up with things drawn offscreen, or just bits of hidden real estate. Xinerama did this stuff well but seems to have been shelved.

    67. Re:confiuration by coolsnowmen · · Score: 1

      I know I'm a little late to the party but:

      I think it has to do with ease/reliability.

      In the windows world, you have two trusted ways of giving advice to change/fix something and they are both hard to describe without being there or without screen captures.
      Regedit, and the standard guis.

      (For the record, I have seen PLENTY of windows solutions that say "save the following to a .reg file, and execute it"
      IMHO, this is worse than command line, because there is no "man" page for the command to figure out what exactly the command is supposed to do.)

      In linux, even if there exists a gui, because of choice, you don't want to say "in kde, do this, but if you have gnome do this, but if you have xfce...".

      So you say a one off command line, because
      1) it is compact, 2) it works, 3) and is desktop-manager independent

    68. Re:confiuration by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      so how do you add shares and users to samba, that's part of the setup too and it doesn't happen automatically.

      maybe your wireless card didn't need any bytecode. Also the wireless setup didn't even do a iwlist scan and display a list of points I could connect to. Windows does much better than that and ubuntu should be able to do even better than windows.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    69. Re:confiuration by steeviant · · Score: 1

      Here's how I got SMB working... I made a folder and called it Public, then right clicked on it and selected sharing options, then I clicked "share this folder", and "allow other people to write to this folder" and finally "Guest access".

      Now granted, I'm not using this machine as a corporate file-server, but those options are all I need to be able to create shares that other people on my network can get access to. If I wanted to create a new samba user, I can do it just like in windows, by adding a new user and then restricting the share to only that person... or I can use unix permissions if I want to get more fine grained... I fail to see how it's any harder than Windows in any respect.

      Yes, I have the option to tinker "under the hood" but I haven't.

      As for the wireless driver, grow up.

      How is it Linux's fault that you bought a piece of junk that doesn't have drivers for Linux? By buying poorly supported hardware, you reward the manufacturer for failing to properly support their product and encourage them to save a few dollars by doing the same for their next crappy piece of hardware, where's the incentive to improve things if users are so stupid that they think it's Linux's fault that it doesn't work.

      So thanks a lot for making things worse for the rest of us, and then blaming Linux.

    70. Re:confiuration by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      "What surprises me is that there doesn't seem to be a utility/online database of various monitors and their specs. If the autodetection doesn't work, you're basically on your own and have to track down the horizontal sync and vertical refresh rate ranges, which is stupid."
      SAX has that feature and yes it is wonderful. I think more distros should pick up SAX since it is now GPL.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    71. Re:confiuration by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      Here's how I got SMB working...

      Tried that, I can access the share from Linux but not from windows.

      As for the wireless driver, grow up.

      Your precisely the reason Ubuntu isn't ready for the general public. You fail to see that if linux wants to be gpl and doesn't want a stable ABI then it's going to have to adapt, do things like reverse engineer drivers and yes point you in the direction of them instead of pretending they don't exist.

      It would have been easy for ubuntu to do this, but it doesn't. and I fail to see why that prevents them doing a iwlist scan to show available access points too.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    72. Re:confiuration by steeviant · · Score: 1

      Your precisely the reason Ubuntu isn't ready for the general public.

      It's very flattering that you think I'm personally attributable for the slow uptake of Linux, but I seriously doubt that my influence spreads that far.

      Tried that, I can access the share from Linux but not from windows.

      Works for me... maybe your Windows machine had it's firewall turned up to maximum annoyance?

      You fail to see that if linux wants to be gpl and doesn't want a stable ABI then it's going to have to adapt, do things like reverse engineer drivers and yes point you in the direction of them instead of pretending they don't exist.

      No, what I fail to see is how any of that absolves you of the personal responsibility of buying something that actually works with your system. It's like buying Halo 3 and then whining on the internet that it doesn't work on your PS3 and blaming Sony.

      It would have been easy for ubuntu to do this, but it doesn't.

      I couldn't agree more that making it unnecessarily hard to get stuff working is pure folly, but I'm left wondering what ancient hand-me-down version of Ubuntu you dusted off that didn't have a GUI for managing restricted drivers like the ones for my Nvidia graphics or your poorly chosen wireless device. It's been my experience that Ubuntu is far more pragmatic about matters of non-"free" software than most other distributions.

      and I fail to see why that prevents them doing a iwlist scan to show available access points too.

      That's probably because you're delusional... I'm able to see a list of wireless networks by clicking on the network icon in the notification area, able to install restricted drivers without touching a command-line, and able to share files pretty easily with Windows and OS X machines over SMB.

      Are you sure you've actually used Ubuntu? Because it sounds an awful lot like you're, you know, just pulling big smelly things out of your ass and then putting them on the internet.

    73. Re:confiuration by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      can't remember the exact version of ubuntu I installed but it's the 64bit version one before the current version I upgraded to the current version just after it came out.

      Also, updated the kernel the other day. It didn't copy across / setup my wireless driver files or the nvidia driver. not exactly friendly.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
  5. lame by sveard · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So the entire summary is Thelasko's opinion , with a one sentence description that links to shuttleworth's blog? Perhaps a true summary of proposed changes in Ubuntu desktop notifications would have been more informative.

    1. Re:lame by FugitiveMind · · Score: 1

      Basically, they want something similar to Growl on OSX.

    2. Re:lame by Thelasko · · Score: 4, Interesting

      So the entire summary is Thelasko's opinion , with a one sentence description that links to shuttleworth's blog? Perhaps a true summary of proposed changes in Ubuntu desktop notifications would have been more informative.

      Well after years of posting long winded descriptions and never getting published, I started posting one sentence summaries. Of course, Murphy had to show up with his stupid law...

      Anyway, I originally found the bit about this being controversial here. I decided to go straight to the source and post from Shuttleworth's blog, rather than a third party's.

      --
      One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
    3. Re:lame by fm6 · · Score: 1

      "Long winded" and "single sentence" are not your only choices. You'll notice that submissions are much longer than this one. One-sentence summaries are good, but a little additional explanation is helpful.

      If your prose makes people's eyes glaze over, it's probably not the word count as such, but the content-to-word ratio. Try working on that.

    4. Re:lame by FictionPimp · · Score: 1

      Wow, that link you have shows how far behind ubuntu has gotten.

      "As always, things can easily change between now and Ubuntu 9.04 (due out April 2004)"

      We are just now on 8.10 and they predicted 9.04 to have a 2004 release...

    5. Re:lame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We are just now on 8.10 and they predicted 9.04 to have a 2004 release...

      Is that a joke? Ubuntu release numbers are dates in the form of YY.MM -- i.e. 8.10 was 2008-October, 9.04 will be 2009-April. Nevermind that Ubuntu's first release was october 2004 anyway...

    6. Re:lame by FictionPimp · · Score: 1

      The article the parent linked had the line I quoted above.

      Thus my comment.

    7. Re:lame by Thelasko · · Score: 1

      "Long winded" and "single sentence" are not your only choices. You'll notice that submissions are much longer than this one.

      When I say "Long winded" I mean about as long as the average submission. I just became tired of putting that much thought into something no one will ever read. I was counting on the staff to RTFA and add to what I wrote, and they did. (Thanks Timothy! I take back everything I ever said about you) Realistically, there is quite a few things that are controversial about this proposal, if you want to know more, you should RTFA!

      --
      One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
    8. Re:lame by sveard · · Score: 1

      Well then, just don't let it happen again

    9. Re:lame by fm6 · · Score: 1

      Well, I have an acceptance rate of about 20%, and my submissions are probably on the long side.

    10. Re:lame by andy.ruddock · · Score: 1

      And seeing as the blog entry is dated "Tue Dec 23 2008" and the release of 9.04 is mentioned in the future tense, you didn't consider that this might possibly be a typo?

      --
      God: An invisible friend for grown-ups.
    11. Re:lame by Goaway · · Score: 1

      And you didn't consider that this might possibly be a joke?

  6. In favour by invisiblerhino · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I like it. Maybe I'm alone here, but note in the article that Shuttleworth says that some notifications are important and should be treated differently (as "persistent panel indicators") - but there's no reason why you should have to click on "Wifi stopped working" and "Wifi started working", hence distracting you from what you're doing. Exploring new ideas is more important than whether they're good or bad, especially four months ahead of release.

    --
    xterm -n 8
    1. Re:In favour by cratermoon · · Score: 1

      With several or even dozens of components and programs all popping up notices about ephemeral events, the modern desktop can be a total mess, and really distracting. Anything that would put all the various notices into a single stream would be good. In general I agree that there should be no controls on the notification buttons, in general. Maybe there should be a way to click on it and it goes away. I mean, what if the notification is an IM from your lover "hey sweetie, meet at the usual spot at 5:30" and your spouse walks in the room?

    2. Re:In favour by uhmmmm · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you're concerned about your IMs being displayed as a notification, there's a reason there's an option to turn those off. They default to off in Pidgin, last I checked too.

      I disagree about not being able to interact with notifications. It's one feature I use all the time with Pidgin. It pops up a notification when a contact signs on, and the notification includes a button to open a conversation with them. Perfect for those times that the notification reminds me that I had wanted to talk to this person for some reason. The button it completely relevant to the message, and avoids a fair amount of work in figuring out where I put the buddy list window and digging through a lot of contacts to find the one that just happened to sign on.

    3. Re:In favour by mcgrew · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      I mean, what if the notification is an IM from your lover "hey sweetie, meet at the usual spot at 5:30" and your spouse walks in the room?

      If that happens then you're an asshole who just got what he deserved - a divorce, child support, and probably a breakup with your adulterous slutfriend.

      That preacher guy that's causing all the controversy about Obama says that divorce is a greater threat to marriege than gay marriage, but he's wrong. The biggest threat to marriage isn't gay marriage or divorce, but adultery and your incredibly stupid attitude toward it.

      As the former spouse of a slut who had several affairs during our marriage, please forgive me for thinking you're an absolutely disgusting asshole, and please forgive me for hoping you get taken to the cleaners by your poor spouse (who has my deepest sympathies, I was where (s)he is now, poor thing)

    4. Re:In favour by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd be happy to see 'Wifi Started Working' in Linux. And maybe 'RAID is actually compatible with motherboard RAID' messages. And 'Shut the fuck up about "fakeraid"' messages.

    5. Re:In favour by calmofthestorm · · Score: 1

      Yeah this kind of crap and lack of multiple desktops were the two main reasons I left Windows a few years ago. I later found Microsoft's TweakUI that lets you disable those stupid balloons that, in windows at least, never say anything useful ever, and another Microsoft addon that lets you do multiple desktops.

      As much as I am a linux fanboi, windows can be decently usable once you mod it to hell but I prefer the out of box experience of linux, 'cause frankly I think like the nerds who build it so it tends to work out:-)

      --
      93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
    6. Re:In favour by somersault · · Score: 2, Funny

      Maybe there should be a way to click on it and it goes away. I mean, what if the notification is an IM from your lover "hey sweetie, meet at the usual spot at 5:30" and your spouse walks in the room?

      Then perhaps you should disable desktop notifications in the preferences for VirtuaGirlfriend, or keep your mechanised Real Doll chained to the bed?

      --
      which is totally what she said
    7. Re:In favour by fudoniten · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Yes, but, as he says in the blog, that could be handled differently.

      When I have notifications on in Pidgin, I have to disable most of them. Otherwise, people signing on, signing off, messaging me, etc, generate almost constant dings and pop-ups. I especially like the semi-transparent click-through-ability of the notifications on display. I hate it when I'm about to click 'close' (or on another desktop), and a popup appears at the last second, causing something entirely unexpected to occur.

      I'm in favour!

    8. Re:In favour by Duradin · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      What we really need to do as a culture is to separate legal marriage, religious marriage and "romantic" marriage from the umbrella heading of "marriage".

    9. Re:In favour by mcgrew · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      So I'm assuming you're posting AC so as to not undo the "troll" mod you just placed? I heve never in my life experioenced any pain anywhere ner as severe as my ex-wife's adultyery, and I've gone through a headon auto wreck, and when I was 7 I broke both my arms.

      None of that was near the pain of the heartbreak. If you've never had a spouse step out on you, you have no idea how painful it is. I let her go because I couldn't stand the pain anymore.

      I did get professional help after she left the last time - and note that she didn't just leave me, but our then-teenaged daughters as well. The shrink diagnosed "adjustment disorder with depressed mood" and prescribed Paxil, which I was on for a year and a half (where "The Paxil Diaries" came from).

      Other then the adjustment disorder, which is a temporary condition brought on by the kind of thing I was going through, I was pronounced perfectly healthy. I've since started drinking a bit, but then again I haven't had a drink since Friday, haven't wanted one.

      Nice troll BTW. PS - I'm offtopic but the AC hatefully responding is insightful? WTF??????????

    10. Re:In favour by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree, although I think there just needs to be a standard set of behaviors.

      I think left clicking should always close the notification, no "X" button to hunt down about it.
      Then reserve right clicking for 'relevent action', like popping up the window.

        The OP example is fine. 99% of the time I like pidgin's notifications.
        1% of the time I'm showing something off to someone and don't need them to know PrettySara17 is flirting with me.

      I shouldnt have to go into every single app that generates these just to toggle it every time I say "hey, come look at this".

      Btw, a good replacement for your example is gnome-do's pidgin plugin. I find most of my IM's are opened with that now. Jus thit the hotkey, type a bit of their name, tab, 'chat', and its open. Half the time I keep my buddylist window hidden now.

    11. Re:In favour by jackb_guppy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Use other system designs to help.

      Each message needs an importance. Say 0 to 100. 100 being really important. Let user pick how important to care about. BUT ALWAYS LOG THEM. Real important will show up and be clicked on to go ahead. Un-important will just be in the log.

      Don't place stupid things to "fly by".

    12. Re:In favour by kkiller · · Score: 1

      It's an interesting idea, but there are some notification that I will want to click on. Amarok popping up that I have a new song playing is fine, that's something I don't need to interact with, but Pidgin telling me I have a new message is something I need to respond to. Having to click into Pidgin sounds like a cumbersome option, rather than just being able to click the IM notification when it first appears.

    13. Re:In favour by mollymoo · · Score: 1

      I like it. Maybe I'm alone here, but note in the article that Shuttleworth says that some notifications are important and should be treated differently (as "persistent panel indicators") - but there's no reason why you should have to click on "Wifi stopped working" and "Wifi started working", hence distracting you from what you're doing.

      Why do you need notifications for WiFi being connected/disconnected at all? Just change the icon in the system tray / menu car / panel / whatever. The big change to notifications should be to get rid of the 95% of them which just say "I did exactly what I'm supposed to do and everything worked fine". Tell me when something unusual happens, tell me when things go wrong, tell me when I need to take action; but don't waste my time telling me everything is running normally.

      --
      Chernobyl 'not a wildlife haven' - BBC News
    14. Re:In favour by Kent+Recal · · Score: 1

      Thank you, your post was successfully saved. I and others have read it already and more people will be able to read it in the future.

    15. Re:In favour by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Good point.
      The funny thing is that it made me think of what could be a great new feature for Pidgin. A buddy basied todo list.
      If you wanted to chat with a friend about some subject wouldn't it be handy to have a way to add a a TODO to your IM? When a buddy that has a pending TODO comes one it would then pop up with a dialog asking if you want to start a conversation and would even remind you with the Subject. You could then start chatting or dismiss the TODO.
       

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  7. Is /var/log really so hard to remember? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    "tail -f" is all the notification you need.

    1. Re:Is /var/log really so hard to remember? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      -1, Troll? This was obviously a joke, considering that anyone who knows their way around /var/log knows why this does not fall under "desktop notifications", not that half of you would even stop to consider that before carrying out your precious first impression. When I see moderation like this it makes me want to do some real trolling so that the trigger-happy Special Ed mods can know the difference. You know, make them waste their mod points demoting Anonymous Coward posts that have words like "nigger" that you know they will respond to, like fish to bait or moths to a fire. I can't be the only one who responds to shitty moderation this way.

  8. Users read? by smooth+wombat · · Score: 5, Interesting

    But anything that would make more people read over and specifically approve the wording of error messages and other notifications is a good thing.

    People can't follow written instructions when dumbed down so far that a six year old can follow. What makes you think people would read what an update to an OS does?

    Case in point. We sent an email to everyone in our organization, including consultants, on Thursday afternoon (1:41 PM to be exact) specifically telling people to restart their machines, not turn them off, so Microsoft's critical update could be applied. We also told them in the same email that this procedure should be followed until further notice. Here is the relevant part:

    Microsoft has issued a critical security patch that corrects a vulnerability problem with Internet Explorer. Tonight, the Client Support group will start applying the patch to all desktops/laptops within the agency. Therefore, we are requiring that all users follow the recommended procedure of daily restarting workstations. Upon a successful restart of your workstation you will be at the Windows sign-on screen.

    Perform these steps before you leave each day.
    1) Close all open applications as you normally would.
    2) Click Start button\icon on the task bar at the bottom of your screen
    3) Select Shutdown from the available list of items
    4) Select Restart from the list of values - This is important - you must select "RESTART"
    5) Click OK - Your PC will reboot itself to the Welcome to Windows sign-on screen - from there we can apply the corrective solution


    On Monday, when I checked a log file, there were roughly 30 machines in my building alone that were turned off on Friday night rather than restarted. There were others in the field who had done the same thing.

    We know they restarted their machine on Thursday night as requested so for them to have their machines off would mean they had to physically change the value from Restart to Shutdown, completely ignoring the email that was sent to them 24 hours before.

    Only those who truly want to know what is going on will take the time to review updates. The rest will just click a button or not bother reading what is put in front of them.

    --
    We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    1. Re:Users read? by timeOday · · Score: 1

      I took the statement - "anything that would make more people read over and specifically approve the wording of error messages and other notifications is a good thing" - to refer to distro quality control (akin to code reviews for error messages), rather than anything about end users. End users will not disrupt their work for computer maintainence until it is necessary for them to get something done.

    2. Re:Users read? by gQuigs · · Score: 1

      And waste all that power over a weekend! Plus, your instructions are confusing :P. No really, I had to read them twice.

      Also, why can't they just logoff?

    3. Re:Users read? by Windrip · · Score: 5, Insightful

      <cluebat>
      Other humans do what's important to them, not what's important to you.
      </cluebat>

      <description type="job">
      You don't control people, you control machines.
      You do your job so others can do theirs.
      </description>

      If it's that important to perform a remote restart, drop a widget on the machine that enables remote control.

    4. Re:Users read? by nategoose · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So you wanted people to leave their computers on all weekend? You must hate the environment.

    5. Re:Users read? by RealAlaskan · · Score: 1
      Since you know that they went out of their way to NOT restart, I would guess that they have had bad experiences with critical windows updates, and weren't going to be part of the experiment.

      Those are your knowledgeable users, who read and understood your message.

    6. Re:Users read? by smooth+wombat · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Also, why can't they just logoff?

      They could log off at night but since these are Windows machines, updates and patches don't get applied until a machine restarts. The SMS package, as far as I know, doesn't force a restart after updates are applied.

      By having people restart every night it also prevents them from staying logged in so long that their password expires and then having them call the helpdesk to complain they can't get into anything. Two weeks before their password expires, they get a notification screen reminding when they do Ctrl-Alt-Del. If they never logged out, they would never know to change their password because they would never get the notification.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    7. Re:Users read? by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      The email you sent is ambiguous at best. If I got that email, I would have done the shutdown as instructed on Thursday night, but I would have assumed that you would be done on Friday morning. From that point on, I would continue working as I always had. Powering off a PC that isn't going to be used for nearly 3 days sounds like a good way to save the company a pretty penny, and that is what I would have done.

      In short, your email sucked if the behavior you wanted was a restart shutdown EVERY night. It should have read something like, "From this point forward we are changing the recommended daily restart procedure to a requirement." Good communication is more than just saying something. It is about saying the right thing to get the appropriate response. In your case, you didn't actually ask for what you wanted.

      Which brings us back on point. Mr. Shuttleworth deciding to look closely at how and when notifications are presented, and what they say, will do more for Ubuntu's popularity than any other single thing he could possibly do. Having timely information that leads to the actual source of a problem makes errors trivial. Bothersome interruptions from notifications of inconsequential things you can't do anything about, or misleading error messages, make people hate computers and those that write programs for them.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    8. Re:Users read? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      It wasn't a matter of illiteracy, it was a matter of those thirty people simply ignoring you and your antienvironmental instructions, you wastrel.

      Leave the PC on all weekend? Wasteful madness. Some of us give a shit about global warming, yet you want us to leave our PC on ALL WEEKEND.

      Next time don't pick a Friday. Some of us care about the planet we're leaving our children. Better yet, don't have your users leave the PCs on at all; you can take a small productivity hit to patch the machines and save the planet on bootup.

      You obviously don't care, but apparently thirty of your users do.

    9. Re:Users read? by jimicus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      OK, where to start... I'll leave aside the wording of your email, seeing as most people will glaze over as soon as they see it's from IT in the first place.

      1. Your email is more than 5 lines long. IME, most people don't read beyond the first few lines so there's no point in bothering with any more than that.

      2. You expect your end users to jump through hoops for nobody's benefit but your own. Wake on LAN should deal with PCs that are turned off, if they're not turned off I leave setting up a remote reboot script to your imagination.

      3. Rewritten email:

      "We will be applying updates to your PC, part of which will involve remotely rebooting your system at 20:00 tonight. Please notify us if this is inconvenient".

    10. Re:Users read? by gQuigs · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's hilarious :).
      One of the reasons you make them restart is because the notification system just isn't good enough.

      BTW, I know I've seen Windows force restarts before.

    11. Re:Users read? by mweather · · Score: 1

      Why didn't you just have them log off? Besides, it's nothing that can't be fixed by WOL.

    12. Re:Users read? by _14k4 · · Score: 1

      Your problem? You should admin the network so that these requirements can be forced. Lock it down, man!

    13. Re:Users read? by somersault · · Score: 1

      or them to have their machines off would mean they had to physically change the value from Restart to Shutdown

      Or perhaps they just press the power button for ACPI shutdown instead of going into the menu?

      --
      which is totally what she said
    14. Re:Users read? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey Eco-Warrior,

      Did you type this from your solar-powered computer? If not, you're wasting electricity to type your environmental diatribe.

      That's what hipsters such as yourself would call irony.

      -derChef

    15. Re:Users read? by raddan · · Score: 1

      I have a better one:

      "Please RESTART your computer before you go home. You read that right: restart, NOT shutdown."

      I'm all for removing users from the equation somehow. I don't mean in this case. I mean, in general.

    16. Re:Users read? by Toonol · · Score: 1

      The problem isn't that people don't understand your instructions. The problem is that they simply didn't care, or perhaps even delighted in not following your instructions.

      There were certainly times when I 'passed' on certain procedures sent out by IT; especially when practically every update slowed the machine, locked it down further, or upgraded software to more bloated and less useful versions. Of course, many patches were good, such as the mentioned security patches; but users get passive-aggressive. People feel possessive over any tool they use eight hours a day, every day, and resent other people asserting control over 'their' machine. That's maybe not strictly rational, but people view it as if you came into their cubicle and rearranged their desktop.

    17. Re:Users read? by smooth+wombat · · Score: 1

      In short, your email sucked if the behavior you wanted was a restart shutdown EVERY night.

      What part of,

      Perform these steps before you leave each day.

      isn't clear? It tells the person to do this each day. Not just that one day, but every day.

      The only thing that could have made things more clear, and something I suggested but was of course rejected, would have been to say:

      Machines should not be turned off unless specifically told to do so.

      We, like every organization, have idiots working for us. And they're the ones who of course have the most problems because they can't/won't read.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    18. Re:Users read? by firewrought · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In short, your email sucked if the behavior you wanted was a restart shutdown EVERY night. It should have read something like, "From this point forward we are changing the recommended daily restart procedure to a requirement." Good communication is more than just saying something. It is about saying the right thing to get the appropriate response. In your case, you didn't actually ask for what you wanted.

      Amen! I would lead with:

      "Restart every night to protect your computer."

      Put your request/demand/question at the top of the email, then followup with details about what you want and why you want it. Make it terse, so people can read it fast (in Outlook AutoPreview, even). Bake an even terser version into the subject line ("Restart Every Night"). This lets you get your point across before the reader can hit the delete key.

      Incidentally, most readers aren't interested in why you want something or the idiot's guide to doing it (if it's a known operation like "restart"). You need these details (for a big audience), but your message penetration will be lower if you lead off with them. Just tell people what you need of them. Other low priority information includes: how the decision was reached, what policy enforces it, and what vague alternatives might be hand-wavingly considered in the future. Never include grovelling and never lord it over your users: you are speaking professional to professional.

      Pro tip: if there's an intrinsic motivation for your reader, mention it second (after your request but before the details). Saying "to protect your computer" speaks to the typical office worker's needs waaaaaaay faster than "Microsoft has issued a critical security patch that corrects a vulnerability problem with Internet Explorer." I can live for a few hours without IE, but I can't do anything if my workstation isn't running. On the other hand, if there's no motivation for the reader (or if it's trivial, or if it's hard to understand, or if it's a threat of punishment), you're better off burying these details in your verbiage.

      --
      -1, Too Many Layers Of Abstraction
    19. Re:Users read? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We, like every organization, have idiots working for us.

      Yes, I think you have proven that point wonderfully.

    20. Re:Users read? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      There's a difference between using electricity and wasting electricity. How can anyone on slashdot be so stupid as to not understand such a simple concept?

      Moron.

    21. Re:Users read? by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      We, like every organization, have idiots working for us.

      Did you make any attempt to contact the users who shut down their computer and ask *why* they did that? Or did you not bother because they're obviously "idiots" and they couldn't possibly tell you anything useful? Be careful, you might actually learn something new!

      80% of any job, including IT work, is psychology. If you don't know how to get other people to do what you want, you'll have a very hard time at work and life-in-general. In this case, updating the computers is really your job, and you have the tools in place to do it all remotely without any user interaction at all, so that's what you should have done, as other commenters have pointed out.

      In short, talk to your users.

    22. Re:Users read? by QuantumRiff · · Score: 1

      and of course, why do you go to start to end?? why do you go to shutdown to restart?

      --

      What are we going to do tonight Brain?
    23. Re:Users read? by FictionPimp · · Score: 1

      The best solution is developing a system that doesn't require your users to do anything. It's trivial to reboot every workstation on campus at midnight.

    24. Re:Users read? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      You had to read them twice? You must be a fucking idiot, or English is your 4th language.

    25. Re:Users read? by IceCreamGuy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hah! I have the same problem. I actually have a Splunk search saved that I check every morning telling me if anyone's operating with an expired password. I call them up and usually ask "Have you noticed that you haven't been able to print anything for 24 hours? That you haven't been able to access any of the shares? No? Well, anyways, please logoff and log on again, Thanks!" People really would go for weeks without logging off, not being able to print or access network data and just not tell anyone about it.

    26. Re:Users read? by causality · · Score: 3, Insightful

      <cluebat>
      Other humans do what's important to them, not what's important to you.
      </cluebat>

      <description type="job">
      You don't control people, you control machines.
      You do your job so others can do theirs.
      </description>

      More like "other humans assume that the IT department enjoys creating work for the hell of it and that smoothly running systems which can be maintained by following simple written instructions are somehow not in their interests". How is patronizing the GP like this supposed to remedy that? You can look at an undesirable or less-than-ideal situation (i.e. the apathy of users) and accept it as the reality of the situation and work with it without ever needing to make excuses for it or justify it. Personally I find that quite a bit more appealing than saying "know your role" or "you're just the help" as though this attitude is the only way to serve others. I'm not necessarily even saying that these things aren't true; I am merely questioning the need to place so much emphasis on them.

      If it's that important to perform a remote restart, drop a widget on the machine that enables remote control.

      This part is good constructive criticism. When I mentioned "accept the reality of the situation and work with it" above, this is more like what I was talking about. Why create avoidable problems by asking users to manually follow instructions (however simple) that can be automated? I think the actions we would take to deal with this situation would be quite similar; it's really your point of view (and yours is a common one) that I'm addressing. I would handle this in a remotely administered, automated fashion because it's a better solution, it's more reliable, and it doesn't create unnecessary friction, not because I'm worried about whether it's sufficiently humble for my station. In my opinion, that attitude is one of the more regrettable products of corporate culture.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    27. Re:Users read? by smooth+wombat · · Score: 1

      In some of the cases, I have talked to the people and re-explained they should not be turning their machines and why we are asking them not to do that. I've even walked them through the process to make sure they understand what has to be done.

      Same results but again, as I stated earlier, if they can read all the directions for how to restart their machine, the part about doing this every night shouldn't be that hard. In fact, they have to go out of their way to change from restart to shutdown so obviously they know what they're doing and choose not to follow directions.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    28. Re:Users read? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Referring to 8pm as "20:00" is inconvenient for me.

    29. Re:Users read? by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      You do your job so others can do theirs.

      exactly. and they hinder him doing his job without any reason. a coworker who willingly hinders you at doing your job for no reason whatsoever deserves a written warning from his manager.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    30. Re:Users read? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Maybe their job doesn't require them to print or use shares. Besides, forcing frequent password changes just uses up lots of yellow stickies.

    31. Re:Users read? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      not trying to troll. But why should users have to do anything to there PC besides use the apps on them to do whatever it is they do at work (stockbroker, inventory management, accounting, etc.). Either the IT department should figure out a way to apply patches that don't adversely affect the users or the IT department should do it manually themselves. The IT department, being good geeks that they are they will figure out that this sucks and try to figure out another way (run apps in virtual machine via a different OS maybe or whatever).

    32. Re:Users read? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they hinder him doing his job without any reason

      that "without any reason" is misplaced. In the first place, because IT is an overhead department, i.e. not generating revenue for most companies. As IT, you always have a subordinate role towards the people that work to get you your paycheck. Second, he demanded a timely affirmative action from his co-workers (who might not be as technically-minded as he is). That means
      a) the co-worker must make a mental (or physical) note to remind him for something 4 hours from now
      b) if leaving the PC running at night is common practice, that action is an added action, not normally performed by the user.
      c) he indicates that they use the pull-down menu style for shutting down a PC. If a user presses OK before realizing that the pull-down menu was in the wrong position, you don't really expect him to wait for it to shut down, and then power-on the machine again?

      Like another poster said, in a managed environment you can just use a remote command to shut down or reboot the pc. It can even be scripted, so it can be scheduled at midnight. In an un-managed environment, there's bound to be some unpatched hole on the machines that you can exploit to reboot the machine. So he even demanded action that was completely unnecessary.

      And the final point, what's that with leaving desktops running at night? They must have a fixed-price power plan.

    33. Re:Users read? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We know they restarted their machine on Thursday night as requested so for them to have their machines off would mean they had to physically change the value from Restart to Shutdown, completely ignoring the email that was sent to them 24 hours before.

      Only those who truly want to know what is going on will take the time to review updates. The rest will just click a button or not bother reading what is put in front of them.

      Jeez dude, calm down. 24 hours is a long time; maybe they just forgot, and shut down out of force of habit?

    34. Re:Users read? by jimicus · · Score: 1

      I have a better one:

      "Please RESTART your computer before you go home. You read that right: restart, NOT shutdown."

      Not really. You're back with the problem of people not doing something because it's not convenient to them.

      Remember that as far as your average end-user is concerned, they expect to have to mess around with their PC about as much as they expect to mess around with their toaster. And "mess around" in this context means "do anything which isn't directly related to the job they're paid to do". You can moan about this all you like (and on /., lots of people will moan at great volume) but at the end of the day the whole fscking point of IT is to provide and manage IT. Not to delegate that onto end users.

    35. Re:Users read? by mollymoo · · Score: 1

      So, instead of a couple of people spending a couple of days rolling out a password change system that actually works with the way normal people use their systems, you decide to cost everyone in the organisation five minutes or more of their time and force them to lose all state on their systems every single day?

      Can you put that on your CV (resume) so I don't waste any time if you apply for a job? Thanks.

      --
      Chernobyl 'not a wildlife haven' - BBC News
    36. Re:Users read? by mollymoo · · Score: 1

      It's not about being humble, it's about knowing the purpose and aims of the company. If the companay makes widgets, the purpose of IT is to help the company make more and better widgets to sell because selling widgets is what pays everybody's salaries. Making your users do unnecessary work to use their tools is bad because it means they're spending less time making widgets to sell. There are too many IT people who think their role is to have an excellent computer system, while forgetting that the only definition of "excellent" which is relevant is the one that helps the company make the most and best widgets. If that means keeping your chief designer happy by letting him use his ancient software on Windows 95 then Windows 95 is an excellent choice of OS.

      --
      Chernobyl 'not a wildlife haven' - BBC News
    37. Re:Users read? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you wanted people to leave their computers on all weekend? You must hate the environment.

      Why do you hate America?????

    38. Re:Users read? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not use WSUS and set a deadline? The AU client will then install that on the deadline. Users get told they need to reboot because the patch has *been* installed.

      (with this option, the default automatically changes to 'install updates and shut down' and the update gets installed automatically prior to shutting down. If you have a deadline set, then the patch will be installed and the user told to reboot by that deadline. If you have scheduled it to automatically install patches at, say three am, any computers left on will get patched by themselves.)

      Sounds like you like making work for yourself and other people. There's no need for remote administration of patch installation.

      What I did was modify the login script to remove the COM registration of XML data islands. Made immune when the computers are rebooted.

    39. Re:Users read? by Jurily · · Score: 1

      Here is the relevant part:

      Microsoft has issued a critical security patch that corrects a vulnerability problem with Internet Explorer. Tonight, the Client Support group will start applying the patch to all desktops/laptops within the agency. Therefore, we are requiring that all users follow the recommended procedure of daily restarting workstations. Upon a successful restart of your workstation you will be at the Windows sign-on screen.

      Perform these steps before you leave each day.
      1) Close all open applications as you normally would.
      2) Click Start button\icon on the task bar at the bottom of your screen
      3) Select Shutdown from the available list of items
      4) Select Restart from the list of values - This is important - you must select "RESTART"
      5) Click OK - Your PC will reboot itself to the Welcome to Windows sign-on screen - from there we can apply the corrective solution

      That's way too fucking long for anyone who's not interested. Try "WARNING: When you're done, Restart the computer instead of Shutdown! Click [here] for details."

      The link then explains.

  9. WT...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful
    FTA:

    Our hypothesis is that the existence of ANY action creates a weighty obligation to act, or to THINK ABOUT ACTING. That make notifications turn from play into work. That makes them heavy responsibilities. That makes them an interruption, not a notification. And interruptions are a bag of hurt when you have things to do.

    Then what, exactly, is the purpose of the notifications? If not to invoke immediate action, then just send an email summary at the end of the day of all the "notifications" that happened in the last 24 hours. Short of showing changes in a network state, what would be urgent enough to show immediately, on top of all other windows, but not important enough to want to address at the same time?

    "Your download is complete." I'll want to open the file.

    "You have new email." I'll want to read the email.

    "Your mom cried when she read your heartwarming birthday card." I'll want to pick up the phone.

    What are these mysterious notifications that won't invoke a desire to perform some sort of action from the user?

    1. Re:WT...? by Clandestine_Blaze · · Score: 3, Funny

      What are these mysterious notifications that won't invoke a desire to perform some sort of action from the user?

      Microsoft's notifications usually invoke a desire to throw the computer across the room.

    2. Re:WT...? by mcgrew · · Score: 4, Funny

      "You have unused icons on your desktop"

    3. Re:WT...? by jimicus · · Score: 1

      OT, but how the hell do you kill yourself with pastry?

    4. Re:WT...? by Clandestine_Blaze · · Score: 1

      I wasn't quite sure, but I'm assuming that you would just keep eating, and eating, and eating...

    5. Re:WT...? by cromar · · Score: 1

      Look, sometimes it's nice to know you have a new email or a file has downloaded, etc without being interrupted from your word processing or web browsing! I have to agree with the article here. For instance, Growl is awesome - it provides a way to know what is going on with my system while not having to interrupt my work by grabbing the mouse and clicking on a button just because I have a new email (which I may want to read now, in 10 minutes, in a couple hours, etc).

      It's pretty nice. There's an iTunes plugin that pops up notifications when a new song starts playing - imagine that being a modal dialog box. How annoying!

    6. Re:WT...? by fudoniten · · Score: 1
      Sometimes, I'm sitting around browsing Slashdot. If a new email arrives, I want to get to it immediately.

      Other times, I'm working, and the damn email can wait. I'd rather just ignore it.

      The point he's making is that, if the notification is clickable, then I suddenly have to decide what to do in the three seconds that the notification is onscreen. I experience a little mini-panic when one pops up. Then, whether I'm working or not, I lose my train of thought.

      If the notification is non-interactive, I can safely ignore it. If I am just browsing the news, I can read it and react appropriately. If I'm working, I just zone it out.

      I'm hoping that if my status is 'busy', the notifications won't even show up, or at least most of them won't.

    7. Re:WT...? by bwalling · · Score: 1

      What are these mysterious notifications that won't invoke a desire to perform some sort of action from the user?

      They're for the rest of us who are actually working on something and not waiting for the next distraction. It's nice to see the first few lines of an email for a second or two and be able to glance at it to decide whether it is worthy of interrupting what I'm working on. It's annoying that the notification is clickable because there are times when it appears directly under where I was about to click, so rather than perform the operation I intended, the system now opens an email that I didn't want open. You shouldn't spontaneously change the behavior of clicking in a region of the screen. The 'alert' that Outlook uses happens to appear on the screen in the same place that I dock the 'properties' pane in Visual Studio, so I frequently have an email pop open when I wanted to change an attribute of a control.

    8. Re:WT...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [1]+ Exit 1 find / -name '*.jpg' | mail user@host
      which I don't wish to handle until I'm at a stopping point. OTOH, I won't get this notification until I'm at a good stopping point...

      Let's see Shuttleworth come up with some improvement on that, eh?

    9. Re:WT...? by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Which is why you choose your notifications wisely, and give power users the capability to disable certain classes of them if they want.

    10. Re:WT...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Restarting computer NOW! 10...9...(ha ha! loser!)...2...1...

    11. Re:WT...? by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Being able to click the notification doesn't mean you have to click the notification.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    12. Re:WT...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Speak for yourself.

      "Your download is complete." I'll want to open the file.

      No, I'll want to continue fapping to this porn movie

      "You have new email." I'll want to read the email.

      No, I'll want to continue fapping to this porn movie

      "Your mom cried when she read your heartwarming birthday card." I'll want to pick up the phone.

      Damn, I really didn't need that mental image right now

    13. Re:WT...? by swillden · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What are these mysterious notifications that won't invoke a desire to perform some sort of action from the user?

      For me, all of the things you mentioned, and many more.

      Yes, I MAY want to open the file, read the e-mail, etc., but often I don't want to do that right now. I want to know that I could, but I don't want to stop what I'm doing.

      At first glance, this means that I should want a notification that I can click on to invoke the corresponding action if I want, and ignore if I don't. The problem with that is that it raises another question: When should the notification go away?

      If the answer is that it should stay until I dismiss it, then that means that every notification that pops up interrupts my work because I have to look at it, decide what to do and then dismiss it. Until I do, it'll stay there and keep annoying me. Thus, with that approach, a notification is an unavoidable distraction.

      If the answer is that it should stay for a period of time and then go away, that makes the issue worse because now I not only have to make a decision, I also have a time limit for my decision. If I don't click fast enough, then I miss the opportunity the notification is giving me. In addition, if the notification is about something important, I may miss it if I'm away, so this means that important notifications must also be displayed -- and the associated actions accessible -- in some more persistent way, other than the notification. If the notification information and action can be accessed some other way, though, then how does it help me to have the notification and be able to click it?

      I like Shuttleworth's answer. A transient, transparent notification that is either readable or ignorable, and which doesn't interfere with my work both because it's brief and because I can see, type and click right through it provides me with a cue to pay attention to the more persistent indicators in the system tray, but distracts as little as possible.

      The key is that behind nearly every transient notification there must be a persistent but very unobtrusive notification -- a system tray icon being the most obvious form. That notifier provides a clickable area that will allow me to quickly and easily jump to the associated application, so there's no need to be able to click on a pop-up notification. If I want to read my e-mail, I click on the mail app icon. Same with the download manager, or Wireless config app.

      Those very unobtrusive notifications are good for staying out of your way, but bad at letting me know when there's something I may want to pay attention to. That's where these non-interactive notification bubbles come in. Because they're translucent and transparent to mouse clicks and keystrokes I can continue my work completely uninterrupted, other than perhaps -- at my option -- briefly shifting my attention long enough to read them.

      They don't demand any interaction at all, though, and don't get in the way of whatever I'm currently doing. If I choose to act on them, that's only a click on the appropriate icon away.

      We'll have to see how it works in practice, but I think the concept makes a lot of sense.

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    14. Re:WT...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Solution: Provide alternatives (full/partial/no interaction) in a preferences dialog. Everyone's happy.

    15. Re:WT...? by fprintf · · Score: 1

      I really like the notifications I get under my Windows system. Seriously. When I get an IM, it pops up in a box with a hyperlink showing the first few words of the message. The same, if a bit longer, happens with emails. Both notifcations show who it came from, gives me an opportunity to interact, and if I choose to ignore it they dissolve into the background never to be seen again. I like it.

      On the other hand, some notifications I can do without like "Rebooting your system in 5 minutes" without an opportunity to decline.

      --
      This post brought to you by your friendly neighborhood MBA.
    16. Re:WT...? by andy.ruddock · · Score: 1

      You have seen Steve Balmer?

      --
      God: An invisible friend for grown-ups.
    17. Re:WT...? by bwalling · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, some notifications I can do without like "Rebooting your system in 5 minutes" without an opportunity to decline.

      Open Task Manager and kill the associated process. I do this to installers that have a 'Click OK to reboot' and no option to decline.

    18. Re:WT...? by nbates · · Score: 1

      But it means you have to consider if you want to click on it or not.

      I'm thinking about my notebook's OSD indicating that volume is up, volume is down, brightness... I can't click on those (even if they could have added clicking on them as a feature to turn volume up and down).

      A notification is just that, a way to let you know something.

      Also, think about what happens when you are about to click something and POP! a notification that you end up clicking instead.

      That sounds far fetched, but happens to me a lot of times.

    19. Re:WT...? by nbates · · Score: 1

      Except the user who wants to install the OS and start working instead of start option-hunting. Or those that don't know how to do it.

      For example, did you know you can turn those annoying "OMG You don't have firewall" popups off in windows?

      You can. But I think it is a semi-obscure feature (at least it is a feature I just found out).

      Linux is about options. But that doesn't mean having all the options in every distribution. It means having the option of switching distributions.

      Ubuntu philosophy is that of Gnome... less options to make things simpler. And the lack of customization is a common source of criticism. But you have KDE if you like full customization. So why bother?

    20. Re:WT...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "You appear to be writing a letter."

    21. Re:WT...? by cyclomedia · · Score: 1

      The clue is in this part: >That makes them an interruption, not a notification. >And interruptions are a bag of hurt when you have things to do. I for one turn off as many notifications as possible. If i get a new email i dont mind a tray icon appearing that looks like an envelope but i DO NOT want a notification, or the taskbar button to flash, and i certainly do not want it to leap to the front of the screen. I would like to get on with doing whatever it was i was doing and check that tray icon once every hour or three to see if any emails have arrived. On a slightly side rant this is somewhat related to the way my mobile phone OS (Sony Erricson) annoys me. I leave my phone on silent 98% of the time - unless i'm expecting a call basically, and if i get a missed call i'll phone that person back, or sms them or email them at MY convenience. But my mobile shows a red icon and a splash screen saying basically "OMG YOU MISSED A CALL!!" and i have to open an option menu, scroll down three items and select "Dismiss" to make the splash and icon go away, it then says "ARE YOU INSANE!? IF YOU DON'T RING THEM BACK RIGHT NOW CIVILISATION MIGHT END!!?!?". And I click "Yes, Fuck Off" There's a Ray Bradbury short story about this, it's a good few decades old so muses about intercoms, fax machines and telephones but it ends with a guy sitting at his desk not getting any actual work done because he's constantly switching between them, all to the background of muzak. Sound familiar?

      --
      If you don't risk failure you don't risk success.
    22. Re:WT...? by FrankieBaby1986 · · Score: 1

      I also have a time limit for my decision. If I don't click fast enough, then I miss the opportunity the notification is giving me. In addition, if the notification is about something important, I may miss it if I'm away, so this means that important notifications must also be displayed

      For IM notifications, Download completions, Email Notifications and other such notifiers, The clicking option is solely for convenience while the person is at the computer. The time limit need only be long enough for me to see it while I am sitting there.

      If it is that important, such as an email notification, printer jammed message, or updates available notification, I will get this convenience pop-up AND a tray notifier so I am aware of it when I return to my computer, or if I want to action on it later.

      The important thing to realize is that pop-up notifications were intended for CONVENIENCE. So I feel that yes, they should be clickable.

      --
      ERROR: SIG NOT FOUND (A)bort, (R)etry, (F)ail?:
    23. Re:WT...? by swillden · · Score: 1

      The important thing to realize is that pop-up notifications were intended for CONVENIENCE. So I feel that yes, they should be clickable.

      But a properly-designed UI makes it just as convenient to click the systray icon as the popup notification, and making the popup clickable both subtly demands attention AND also means that you can't click anything under the popup until you get rid of it.

      I'll have to try it to be sure, but conceptually I really like the idea of non-interactive notifications. I think the most interaction they should have is that mousing over them should make them go almost completely transparent, to make sure they don't interfere with using whatever is underneath them.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  10. Old-school UNIX. by serviscope_minor · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Old-school programs often had a messages window which contained notifications. You could view or dismiss it at will, and it was unintrusive. Try running xfig for that old-school feeling. In some, it was even embedded in the main window, so it was always there.

    Or to get closer to the point, there's always xterm... Messages appear and scroll by eventually, but they have nothing except their existence oaasociated with them. No buttons, no links, no hideous, evil, modal dialogs and so on.

    --
    SJW n. One who posts facts.
    1. Re:Old-school UNIX. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Indeed. For me, that's Eterm. It is started at login, has no borders for me to click on, does not show up when alt-tabbing (skip window list), is not resizable or movable, and its stacking is "below all windows".

      Basically, it turns a part of my desktop space into a terminal. And I always start with typing screen rtorrent. You gotta love Enlightenment for it to work, though...

    2. Re:Old-school UNIX. by ducomputergeek · · Score: 1

      Err you mean like "Error: lp0 on fire"

      --
      "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
  11. That mouse over/under behavior... by Radhruin · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Having the notification bubbles disappear when you mouse over (well, under) them doesn't seem usable. The user will see the bubble and want to interact with it in some way. Mousing over should decrease opacity and allow the user to interact with the dialog, such as immediately remove it or click on it to bring up the application that spawned the notification. I'm very familiar with computers, and it still seems very strange to "mouse under" something.

    1. Re:That mouse over/under behavior... by Radhruin · · Score: 1

      What I meant to say was, "increase opacity."

    2. Re:That mouse over/under behavior... by FugitiveMind · · Score: 1

      You just described exactly how Growl notifications on OSX work.

    3. Re:That mouse over/under behavior... by fudoniten · · Score: 1
      Well, he's making exactly the opposite point. You should maybe read it first. You're free to disagree, of course, but you should at least know what you're disagreeing with.

      His point is that the ability to interact with notifications means that you have to decide, in the two or three seconds that the notification is on-screen, whether or not you want to interact with it. That's distracting, which makes notifications annoying.

      Personally, I'm with him. I hate it when I try to switch desktops, close a window, open my IM client, or whatever, and a notification pops up to block my click (or catch it and do something unexpected).

    4. Re:That mouse over/under behavior... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps having them ''duck'' out of the way would be a better way of visually cuing the actual behavior?

    5. Re:That mouse over/under behavior... by Radhruin · · Score: 1

      I know the point he's making; I read the blog post. I don't know why you assume I didn't. I'm saying that I believe it is unrealistic to expect that a user will not attempt to interact with a notification on the screen if it's there. More than likely they will be entirely confused when the mouse goes "under" the notification, which is unlike anything else on the system.

      His point is that the ability to interact with notifications means that you have to decide, in the two or three seconds that the notification is on-screen, whether or not you want to interact with it. That's distracting, which makes notifications annoying.

      You don't have to decide anything, actually. You can read it or not. Having the ability to interact with the notification doesn't change anything about the interaction with the notifications up until the point the user decides to interact with it, which I believe the user will do initially anyway regardless of whether he can actually interact with it or not.

      Personally, I'm with him. I hate it when I try to switch desktops, close a window, open my IM client, or whatever, and a notification pops up to block my click (or catch it and do something unexpected).

      This is a valid concern that can be addressed in other ways, but I don't think the way highlighted in the article is a good one because, again, users will not expect that their mouse will go under the notification. I guarantee a non-insignificant number will sit and wait for the notification to go away before clicking on something they want underneath. This is indicative of an interface that is not as intuitive as it could be.

    6. Re:That mouse over/under behavior... by swillden · · Score: 1

      The user will see the bubble and want to interact with it in some way.

      That is exactly the problem he wants to solve.

      A notification bubble that is interactive will provoke a desire to interact. Non-interactive bubbles will train users to treat them as pure notifications, which can be completely ignored if the user is busy, and which don't interfere in any way with the user's current task.

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    7. Re:That mouse over/under behavior... by swillden · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think your error was actually a better idea. Mousing over the non-interactive bubble should decrease opacity so that it interferes less with using whatever is underneath.

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    8. Re:That mouse over/under behavior... by bar-agent · · Score: 1

      Perhaps having them ''duck'' out of the way would be a better way of visually cuing the actual behavior?

      I think so. Plus, if you get bored, you can chase it around with the mouse. :-)

      --
      i'd hit it so hard, if you pulled me out you'd be the king of britain [bash.org]
    9. Re:That mouse over/under behavior... by TuringTest · · Score: 1

      You don't have to decide anything, actually. You can read it or not.

      Do you realize that "or" is a decision? It wastes resources in the wetware processor. This is what Shuttleworth is trying to optimize through a new design.

      Interaction design is not only about physical actions, it's also about mind processes and cognitive load.

      --
      Singularity: a belief in the "God" idea with the "demiurge" relation inverted.
  12. Sounds like UAC? by Auroch · · Score: 0, Troll

    It almost sounds like UAC or that permissions window in OSX ... Isn't it great to see linux innovating, again?

    --
    Quartz Extreme and Core Image. Are there any other real reasons to spend all that money on generic hardware?
    1. Re:Sounds like UAC? by Radhruin · · Score: 1

      Huh? It sounds nothing like that. If you want to draw a comparison, it looks and sounds a lot like Growl notifications on OS X.

    2. Re:Sounds like UAC? by mweather · · Score: 1

      UAC? No, that's sudo, and it was around for over two decades before the first line of code was written for Vista.

    3. Re:Sounds like UAC? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but it was never implemented graphically until osx/vista. Before, if you didn't su/sudo something, it just didn't work.

      But, hey, thanks for reminding the world why everyone hates freetards.

    4. Re:Sounds like UAC? by Filip22012005 · · Score: 1

      Nope, it had graphics as well. At least KDE has had that for ages, and I'm sure Gnome is no different.

      --
      When the policeman of the tie, rule you violate, hello punishment of the kitty?
    5. Re:Sounds like UAC? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's called gksudo/kdesu, retard.

    6. Re:Sounds like UAC? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ever hear of kdesu?

      Moron.

  13. Looks like Growl for OSX by igb · · Score: 1

    That mockup looks like my desktop: OSX with Growl notifications for mail.

  14. The model for success. by gandhi_2 · · Score: 4, Funny

    This is one case where I think that Microsoft has been the industry leader.

    White lettering on azure field, clearly states the information, and no user can ignore it or work past it.

    "A problem has been detected and windows has been shut down to prevent damage to your computer..."

  15. Pretty... by Brad_McBad · · Score: 1

    But it's only a minor UI change, instead of a yellow box with an 'x' I get a floating translucent one...

    But why can't changes like this be put on the GNOME roadmap, instead of having ubuntu drive linux UI development?

    1. Re:Pretty... by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Because the GNOME guys didn't come up with, and may not want, it.
      Because this is not "linux UI development", it is Ubuntu specific UI development.

      Remember boys (and girls, if the three of you are reading this) Linux doesn't have a GUI, it has various flavors of X Windows. X Windows doesn't have a window manager, it has 15. X Windows doesn't have a desk top environment, it has at least two that I know of and possibly more.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    2. Re:Pretty... by Yfrwlf · · Score: 1

      "it is Ubuntu specific UI development"

      Which is wrong. It's open source software, and everyone should have access to it, easily, regardless of which distro they are using. If Ubuntu wants to support a software project, they're more than welcome to. If they want to make a plugin for Gnome, or have an alternative to Gnome's pop-up system, or whatever, they are more than welcome to make it, but anyone should be able to install it regardless of what distro software bundle they are running.

      Stop supporting proprietary Linux development that is purposefully slanted toward specific distros. Support Linux software that's for everyone, with clear places to download, clear and cross-distro easy installation methods, clear documentation, and a clear website for it. Not some oh btw we did this thing *ahem* I think the source code is in here someplace, good luck compiling it..*ahem*...

      --
      Promote true freedom - support standards and interoperability.
    3. Re:Pretty... by yanyan · · Score: 1

      And the X.org foundation people respectfully request that you don't refer to it as X Windows.

    4. Re:Pretty... by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      Hmm. I think that if there were no distro-specific apps, there would really be no need for different distros. But, I could be wrong.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    5. Re:Pretty... by Minwee · · Score: 1

      Remember [...] Linux doesn't have a GUI, it has various flavors of X Windows.

      It has the X Window System. If you're going to be pedantic, at least try to be right.

  16. What to do with stuck notifications? by Clandestine_Blaze · · Score: 1

    I am quoting Mark Shuttleworth here, from the article:

    The most controversial part of the proposal is the idea that notifications should not have actions associated with them. In other words, no buttons, sliders, links, or even a dismissal [x]. When a notification pops up, you won't be able to click on it, you won't be able to make it go away, you won't be able to follow it to another window, or to a web page. Are you loving this freedom? Hmmm? Madness, on the face of it, but there is method in this madness.

    This goes with the "There should be no actions on notifications" bullet point from the article. This leaves the user with no recourse other than to kill the notification agent in case a notification becomes stuck. While this is only the display agent, there should always be an "exit" for the user.

    We want to make notifications truly ephemeral. They are there, and then they are gone, and that's life.
    [snip]
    If you miss it, that's OK. Notifications are only for things which you can safely ignore or miss out on.

    I left in the relevant text. At first glance, it may seem like the approach that they are going to take with all notifications, but the second point they make is:

    We think there should be persistent panel indicators for things which you really need to know about, even if you missed the notification because you urgently wanted that coffee. So we are making a list of those things, and plan to implement them.

    So this is a little better. If something is broken, there will be an indicator somewhere that will always let you know. For all other things, like someone logging in or your wifi connecting and disconnecting, it'll pop up and fade away. If you're there to see it, great. If you're not, then great. This isn't an entirely new concept. In Windows, if my wifi goes dead, I'll get a disconnection notice, which will fade away forever. In the system tray, I'll have a visual indicator in the form of a red X over the wireless icon.

    One question I have - is this new notification agent something that will just sit in front of libnotify and take care of the aesthetic properties of the notification, or will the two work separately? I guess I just want to know the relationship between this agent and the libnotify daemon.

    1. Re:What to do with stuck notifications? by ciggieposeur · · Score: 1

      I gotta wonder what the point of an ignorable notification is though. If I can ignore it, how does knowing about it help?

    2. Re:What to do with stuck notifications? by Martin+Soto · · Score: 1

      This goes with the "There should be no actions on notifications" bullet point from the article. This leaves the user with no recourse other than to kill the notification agent in case a notification becomes stuck. While this is only the display agent, there should always be an "exit" for the user.

      What makes you think that interactive notifications are less likely to get stuck than non-interactive notifications? This all boils down to the reliability of the notification daemon, not to the interaction style. If the daemon displaying an interactive notification suddenly hangs, you won't be able to interact with the notification anyway. You'll have to restart the daemon.

      I would say that a daemon that can only display non-interactive notifications will probably be simpler, and, thus, more likely to be reliable. We'll see how Canonical's implementation fares in this regard.

  17. So... it's growl by Reality+Master+201 · · Score: 1

    It looks and acts like growl. Not that that's a bad thing - it'd be a great feature to have on Linux.

    What'd be cool is if they'd support growl's network protocol (or work with them implementing a common one). It'd be nice to have servers send me small status updates this way, rather than through emails or whatever.

  18. Perfect. by Aphoxema · · Score: 1

    I think what SABDFL said is just about perfect. While I can appreciate being able to click a notification to go to the instant message I receive, I'll be far more likely to alt-tab to it instead.

    I would like themes, though. I'm spoiled on Growl, check out my brainstorm idea... http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/15447/

    --
    "Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
  19. Here's my proposal by Atrox666 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Every so often the interface should generate a dialog box that says: "Are you an idiot Y/N" If the user consistently answers no then the dialog boxes disappear. If they just click yes on every box in front of them then the operating system trojanizes its self to save other people the effort.

    1. Re:Here's my proposal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's make this more fun and use something like these:

      Delete all your email?
      Format hard drive?
      Set walllpaper to goatse?
      Kill all running programs?
      Transfer all your money to anonymous coward?
      Randomly reorder desktop icons?
      Change user password to a random string of characters? ...

    2. Re:Here's my proposal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      while zenity --question --text="Are you an idiot?" --ok-label=Yes --cancel-label=No; do sleep `seq 60 30 600 | shuf | head -1`; done

    3. Re:Here's my proposal by nbates · · Score: 2, Funny

      Do you not want not to format the hard drive?

      Yes, I do
      Yes, I don't
      No, I do
      No, I don't
      Wait... what?

    4. Re:Here's my proposal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I was using an interface that abusive and crappy, I don't think I could answer "no" in good conscience.

  20. Yuck by SCHecklerX · · Score: 0

    As if notifications weren't intrusive enough already.

    1. Re:Yuck by pipboy9999 · · Score: 1

      As if notifications weren't intrusive enough already.

      I would have to agree, I hate the way they always seem to appear right where I need to interact with the program I am using. Or if you accidentally move your mouse over it, they stay on screen for ever thinking you are actually paying attention to them.

      --
      Yeah, I've got nothing...
  21. Re: configuration by The+Salamander · · Score: 1

    I've had a pain in the ass time doing dual monitors. Not to mention, one of my monitors can pivot (rotate) 90 degrees.. (its nice to see 2 whole pages of text when your typing on a "long screen", instead of a widescreen) but last time I looked, there is no easy way to adjust that either..

    For what it's worth, both 2nd monitor and rotation are easy GUI options in KDE. I haven't used Gnome in many years...

    Plugged a new monitor into my laptop and it just works.

  22. configurable? by spectro · · Score: 1

    I am cool with these notifications as long as there is a "disable all these annoying notifications" button somewhere.

    - Wireless on/off?, just change the little icon in the bar
    - Updates?, just show something I can hover to check

    I don't know you but, besides pulseaudio, annoying little notifications are the only thing I would like to rip off Ubuntu.

    --
    HTML is obsolete. It's time for a new, simpler and richer markup language.
    1. Re:configurable? by Larryish · · Score: 1

      Pulseaudio has some issues, for sure.

      Something that I DO like about it is the way it handles networking of sound. I have a 5.1 surround system hooked up to my main box, and every machine in the home office (my dev box, my wife's Ubuntu box, and my little girl's Ubuntu box) can play audio through the surround system just as if the audio were being played on the main machine.

      The music files are served of a k6-500 Debian fileserver.

      It is nice being able to sit in the living room playing music using my wife's laptop, with the music being served by a different machine and played through the 5.1 surround system with no wires whatsoever being connected to the laptop.

      It is, IMO, well worth the occasional problems with Flash audio (which are the only hiccups I ever experience, literally.

  23. Wake on LAN? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Any machine built in the last decade or so supports it. Makes life easy for you, and you don't have to waste everyone's time and electricity.

  24. Update hell by British · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In Windows land, it seems just about dang near every application you install has notification annoyances when you start the PC.
    1. Java Virtual machine seems to get an update every other day. This is just great, since I don't have enough java VM versions on my add/remove programs. Thanks!
    2. Windows Media Player will irritate you with a media update every day, it seems.
    3. Can't forget Itunes! What minor revision do you have now that doesn't seem to do much for me? Hey, what's all these extra applications you think I should install as well?
    4. Macromedia Flash, ahh, can't forget that one.
    5. HP Printer drivers. Just screams "me too".
    6. Probably Steam has an update too.

    And that's not even the usual update patches from Windows Update.

    Don't turn your computer on in over a week, and you'll be going through 20 minutes of updating stuff. There are times I wish software WASN'T updated so frequently.

    1. Re:Update hell by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 1

      Add to the list:
          - Network devices that have never been connected warn you they aren't connected.
          - Notifications of systems updates, even though you haven't been connected for the past week!?
         

      --
      Jumpstart the tartan drive.
    2. Re:Update hell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It sounds like you'd really appreciate Linux. Have you tried it?

    3. Re:Update hell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just do not update from a stable version unless there is good reason. If the update is critical, you'll hear about it and upgrade accordingly. Going through updates these companies force on you is just a time consuming hassle 95% of the time if I had to throw a figure out there.

      I have not updated _many_ of my applications because nearly all of them are minor tweaks or fixes with a bunch of bloat. If it is working prefect for me now, why bother?

    4. Re:Update hell by EmperorArthur · · Score: 1
      That's why every GOOD program has options like disable updates, and background downloading.

      Windows even has options to do that for some of the Network stuff.

      Course, I'm a fan of having one simple control panel or file to configure things like:
      • Notification transparency
      • A Notification DENY list
      • Time until notifications disappear on their own
      --
      So lets pretend that we've just completed writing this code, as opposed to having just completed sabotaging it -Altera
    5. Re:Update hell by Nightspirit · · Score: 1

      Adobe reader is the worst. Why the hell does a pdf reader need to be updated every week? And before someone suggests foxit reader, it isn't that great for tablets. And don't get me started with itunes. How apple can convert windows users with that obnoxious POS I'll never know. The only reason I have it is for the fitness podcasts. Thankfully I use nod32 for my antivirus so at least that mostly just leaves me alone.

    6. Re:Update hell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Windows even has options to do that for some of the Network stuff.

      You're a hero. So, how do I configure my network interfaces such that they never appear in the systray, whether they are connected or not? The only way I have found was to disable the interface completely.

      A Notification DENY list

      I can help you with that:
      HKCU/software/Microsoft/Windows/Explorer/Advanced/EnableBalloonTips=0

    7. Re:Update hell by FrankieBaby1986 · · Score: 1

      Perhaps it wouldn't be so bad if MS had included a proper, unified installer/updater/uninstaller interface and strongly influenced software to use it.

      Imagine a package manager for everything, provided by MS so that there wouldn't be ten different kinds of package managers causing the same problem again.

      --
      ERROR: SIG NOT FOUND (A)bort, (R)etry, (F)ail?:
  25. Other options by Explodicle · · Score: 2, Funny

    Hover translucency is OK, I guess. I'd rather have my cursor to push an always-translucent notification away, or squish it against the side of the screen, or do something else that actually got it out of my way. And it should shake when it's something really important. And flash! Mandatory PC speaker sound effects! Rumble mouse support! A frowny face graphic that becomes more sinister as the problem becomes more severe! Insert the warning text into the music you're listening to as replacement lyrics! THOSE BASTARDS NEED TO KNOW THIS STUFF!!!!!

  26. MS-Windows too by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Another team has started a port of Growl to MS-Windows:

    http://code.google.com/p/growl-for-windows/

    Given the way things are, maybe Growl should simply be port to Linux, so that the same themes can be used?

    --
    Jumpstart the tartan drive.
    1. Re:MS-Windows too by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 2, Informative

      Turns out the closest Ubuntu project is http://www.mumbles-project.org/

      --
      Jumpstart the tartan drive.
  27. Mystery Girl by D+Ninja · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I love this remark from the article about notifications -

    They are gone like a mystery girl on the bus you didnâ(TM)t get on, and they enrich your life in exactly the same way!

    The first thing I thought of was, "So...they don't."

  28. Re:welcome to 2004, Linux by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

    So Linux users can finally get what Mac users have had for four years?

    No, sounds more like new Linux users can get what old linux and older unix users have had since before Apple existed. Writing messages to the console.

    Good to see apple catching up at last. I hear they've even got virtual desktops, too.

    --
    SJW n. One who posts facts.
  29. Seems nice enough. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I was halfway through writing a post saying I didn't like the lack of interaction at all, but I changed my mind halfway through.
    Frankly, this'll work far better than any current system. I hate multiple options on a notification that programs often do, it's annoying. This way notifications are just what they say on the tin. They tell you something.
    Now, that said, I think the answer to the interactivity disappearing is already there. Tray Icons. Pidgin does this well. If you get a message, when you click on the icon, it raises the window. So you can have a notification from pidgin, then interact with the tray icon, rather than the notification (it would be good to have a picture to link the two).
    That said, what I'd most like to see is basically what the G1, or rather, Android has. It's notification bar adds an icon when an application needs to tell you something, when you drag down, you get a list, then you can hit one to deal with it. It's effective, gives you lasting notification, so you don't miss things, and allows interaction. Combine this with the current statusbar cleverly, and it'd work well.

  30. Re:welcome to 2004, Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    So Mac users recently got what GNU/Linux users have had for over a decade?

    Revolutionary! :-)

    (let's face it: software development is an iterative process, where it often makes sense to take inspiration from other people doing similar things. As everyone does this, it's not a bad thing, in fact it helps spur innovation.)

  31. Wrong tool for the job by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    It is exactly this notion that Shuttleworth is challenging. You see notifications as a sort of transient dialog box that implies action. He sees them as, well, notifications. I am inclined to agree with him. If you might want to read your new email, why only give yourself a 3-second window in which to click the notification? Does your interest in reading the email (or opening the file, etc.) disappear after a few seconds? What if you're busy now, but want to read the email later? Transient notifications are the wrong tool for the job. Put a clickable mail icon on your panel to signal that there is unread mail. Use the pop-up notification only to provide a heads-up about there being new mail. If the user is busy (or away from the computer) they will still want to read their email once they have the attention to spare.

    And don't you dare suggest that notifications should be permanent until the user dismisses them! That's intrusive and obnoxious.

    1. Re:Wrong tool for the job by nasch · · Score: 1

      What benefit does it give the user to be unable to click on the notification to read the email? If the mail icon is sufficient notification, don't pop up the notification at all. If it's not sufficient, let the user click on the notification bubble if they want to - or not if they don't want to.

      Shuttleworth seems to think that if users can do something with a notification, they'll feel like they MUST do it. I'll buy that if he has research to back it up, otherwise I'm skeptical.

    2. Re:Wrong tool for the job by Yfrwlf · · Score: 1

      I think you both have good points. The parent's point is that you don't need to click on a bubble, you can click on the icon or trayed program or whatever instead, your point is what's the harm and I agree. There can be multiple ways of doing different things, so why not let the user decide how they want to do them. Notifications/reminders/etc should certainly be options though.

      I think the reality is, it's easier for many users just to click on a bubble, then there's even less thinking required. You don't have to search for the icon that is blinking, you just click on whatever pops up, sort of like a game show buzzer, then the desktop environment just delivers whatever it wanted to tell you about on a silver platter right to your FACE.

      --
      Promote true freedom - support standards and interoperability.
  32. Re:welcome to 2004, Linux by mweather · · Score: 3, Informative

    Gnome users. Linux users who use KDE already have this and had it before OSX did.

  33. LOL by Beelzebud · · Score: 1

    I love hardcore Linux users. Always wondering when the Year of the Desktop Linux will arrive, and for the most part, always kicking and flailing anytime something is introduced that takes the User into account. From reading the article (cardinal sin) and watching the video they posted (OMG) I think a system like that would be pretty cool.

    1. Re:LOL by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      To play along as a hardcore Linux user:
      The notifications area should be a dynamic desktop which looks like an xterm and constantly greps for the relevant syslog lines. And you'd better not highlight the search text. I want plain text without attention grabbing. Green on black prefered, but I suppose you could make it configurable.

  34. Good response by msimm · · Score: 1

    Before I switched over to IT I did administration and business management for a larger organization (we managed management at smaller satellite offices). One of the most important things I learned there was when you add or implement policies peoples reaction to them will be directly proportional to the level of convenience or inconvenience.

    It's really pretty simple if you stop and remember most people are already really quite busy, frustrated, over-worked, etc. And of course it's tricky, but if you stream-line your business processes with the goal of simplifying or improving things for your users you can turn the tables on them and in the process make it easier to get your own job done. I think we have a tenancy to consider the importance of what *we* need to get done without having the time or interest to see how it directly impacts others, which results in resistance and requires more work (monitoring, baby-sitting) for ourselves.

    --
    Quack, quack.
    1. Re:Good response by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 1

      One of the most important things I learned there was when you add or implement policies peoples reaction to them will be directly proportional to the level of convenience or inconvenience.

      So... Send them a .job (scheduled tasks file) that will do it for them?

    2. Re:Good response by jimicus · · Score: 1

      No, that may or may not work depending on privileges that they have, it requires them to jump through hoops and frankly, unless your PCs are very tightly managed from the day they're built onwards, may or may not work.

      Far better to take advantage of the remote control features that any modern OS offers.

  35. Re:welcome to 2004, Linux by abigor · · Score: 1

    Exactly. It's sad to see an entire discussion with hundreds of comments discussing the pros and cons of something that is old news on every other major desktop in existence.

  36. Error messages which will be read? by SEWilco · · Score: 2, Funny

    There once was a file named mybest.gif
    whose owner wanted to replace it.
    That act it did not permit,
    the file did not have the write bit,
    and out this error did spit.

    1. Re:Error messages which will be read? by SEWilco · · Score: 1
      On a dark and dreary night I searched far and wide for the answer to your quest and despite the best of my efforts I must report that there were no results to be reported within the database which you told me to search. Please take a deep breath, relax, and try another inquiry if you wish, my master.

      Humbly I remain,
      Your User Interface.

  37. Neat idea by motang · · Score: 1

    Love the mockup, hopefully it would transitions into something like that in 9.04

  38. Good Thoughts by jonesy16 · · Score: 1

    I agree with most, if not all, of the proposed changes to the notification system. I agree, for example, that notifications are just "extra information" if you happen to be present and shouldn't require interaction. However, that's not to say that I don't think it would be convenient to have a gesture/keystroke shortcut that causes a predetermined interaction with a notification type. For instance, it would be convenient for me if there was a short snippet about each incoming email, displayed in a notification, as opposed to "1 new message". That way I could know if the email was worth checking or not. If it was, it'd be nice, at the time of notification, to hit a key combo or something that took me straight to mail to see the new content. While I think that's a great idea, I have no idea on how to implement it in such a way that doesn't negatively affect other users.

    I think one of the longest standing problems with Linux is the tray / notification area. Too many competing methods, sloppy looking icons, and inconsistencies that create a negative experience for the user.

  39. Shuttling Feet by PrivacyDeath · · Score: 1

    As soon as notifications start annoying me just like windows XP notifications did, you will hear the sound of my shuttling feet moving to another operating system.

    1. Re:Shuttling Feet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yup - nothing like setting up a new Windows box to realise just how much of this f*cking crap is thrown at you.

      You have no anti virus. Hey, I found a new device (especially worrying if there IS no new device, because it's notifies you of guaranteed trouble). If you do this, this happens. Hey, I found a network. A new program was installed (oh, and let's pop up the release notes and start it, preferably without asking). I have hidden some menu items you will need next week so you can entertain yourself looking for them. Program x/y/z or plug-in a/b/c has a new version, shall I stop you from doing anything useful while I get the upgrades? Windows Update has found new reasons to force you to reboot. Windows Update wants to reboot and will keep f*cking annoying you by popping up that reboot box in a way guaranteed to make you say "reboot" and lose your work. BTW, did you know there's a wireless network nearby (I know I told you this about a 1000 times over the last 10 minutes, but I'll keep doing it until you switch OFF the wireless - at which point I'll switch over to reminding you that you have no wireless available - same frequency). Oh, and your printer jammed.

      I'm normally an average, gentle person who goes through life pretty much as an ordinary citizen, but I must admit that getting this crap in my way makes me want to devise ways to make whoever came up with that idea die very slowly, painfully and miserably.

      Like locking someone in a room with Barry Manilow playing at a volume that collapses eardrums (and still be audible through bone induction), forcing them to use The latest version of Office on Windows Vista Business on an Intel P4 with 521MB of RAM whilst being stuffed up the rear end and the nostrils with powder made from roasted dynamite chilly with just enough water to make it slide. And that's just the first half year.

      Hint to Shuttleworth: do whatever you want but ENSURE IT CAN BE SWITCHED OFF. Simple principle: if I can afford to ignore I. DON'T. EVEN. WANT. TO. KNOW. And if must come onto my screen I. WANT. TO. HAVE. MEANS. TO. ZAP. IT. OFF. MY. SCREEN. ASAP.

      Right, I'm off. Got some chillies to roast. You have been warned.

  40. It's a very wordy instruction by jesterzog · · Score: 1

    Without actually having seen your situation, it does seem as if you've given people something very wordy, and the most important parts of it seem buried in lots of stuff that's not so important. If that's only the relevant part of the email, how much other stuff was around it?

    What happens if you get straight to the point and simply start the email by saying something like "Please restart your computer tonight, and DO NOT shut it down. Detailed instructions about how to do this are below." For anyone who actually cares about why or how, you could then continue with a "This is because..." section.

    Reading what you've shown, the most important part of the instruction is hidden in the middle of a paragraph. It starts off with a phrase about Microsoft issuing something, and some people will just ignore it from that point because Microsoft isn't something they really care about, and you're not obviously telling them to do anything.

    It's also expanding a very simple instruction into a daunting wordy 5-step process that most people won't need to understand in that much detail. This is one of the reasons that I often find Microsoft KB instructions frustrating to follow, because every time they suggest something like editing a registry key, the actual relevant part gets hidden in the middle of a lengthy process that's dumbed down and designed for a person who's never seen the registry before, and surrounded by warnings about how editing it could cripple your system, etc etc.

    A 6 year old with nothing better to do than impress someone might read the whole thing, but an adult who's trying to focus on their day-job for which they're employed will probably try to locate what you're actually saying in as short-a-time as possible and ignore it if they can't find it in the time they have.

  41. Support the full freedesktop.org specs, Mark by kwilliam · · Score: 0

    Hate to be a Negative Nancy here, but I gotta disagree with Mark on this one. Notifications should have actions associated with them. I don't WANT to see "Wifi signal lost" followed immediately by "Wifi signal found". (My Windows installation does this and it drives me crazy!) The only important type of notification is one that prompts a user response, such as "CD burning finished" (action: eject), "Bob sent you a chat!" (action: reply), or "New kernel installed" (action: reboot). I WANT to be interrupted to be told these things. And I can handle notifications that present multiple actions to choose from. Example: "Download finished!" (actions: Open file, Open containing folder) If it's a freedesktop.org spec, support the FULL spec, or we'll risk the spec becoming obsolete. Only supporting a subset will do to notifications what Internet Explorer does to CSS.

  42. Isn't the mechanism already there? by jyro1980 · · Score: 1

    I don't understand how is it different from what exists already. The mechanism is already there:

    [CLI] notify-send "Hi there!" -t expire-time-in-mseconds [/CLI]

    does the same thing. If app wants to make sure user doesn't miss it: give expire time as 0. If app wants to convey critical message there is urgency option (-u).
    I am sure some graphics work can make the notifications prettier (like growl on macosx); but the mechanism is already there. And the decision of whether to demand action from user, is left to apps.

  43. Easy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Just write software that never crashes.

  44. How about a way to disable them? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It would be nice if these was someway to disable the darn annoying volume display that comes up when you adjust the volume.

    But there isnt!

    ARGH!

  45. It's a closed source thing by jesterzog · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think this is just a side effect of the relatively fragmented nature of closed source software. Vendors don't work together or allow anyone to modify their products because of IP issues, which is why you don't see distro-like entities re-packaging existing apps so they'll work together nicely and upgrade nicely, as happens with open source.

    Also once something's installed, it's in the vendor's interests to be as in-your-face as possible to make sure you remember it's there. Hence all the loading-at-startup splash screens that you'll often see on a Windows PC, and update notifications... because every vendor wants to individually make sure that all users know about their latest offerings.

    1. Re:It's a closed source thing by hey! · · Score: 1

      It's really a kind of brain-dead marketing attitude, as in "there's no such thing as bad publicity". Why does Microsoft go through the trouble of renaming and moving the same old control panels every major release? It's to let you know you got the upgrade you paid for. HP likes to pop up windows to remind you that you have a relationship with them.

      Open source is full of sloppy user interface engineering too, but for some reason focus stealing isn't part of the culture. Maybe it's because the software tends to be designed by people who use it.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  46. Dear Mr. Shuttleworth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I love desktop innovation, I really do. I use Ubuntu on every machine I own and I use it exclusively. No Windows.

    I hate to bring this up seeing as how your awful excited about adding new features but I would like to ask you for something.

    Can we please get what we already have working? Bluetooth completely barfed all over the place with 8.10. I'm still cleaning that up.

    Sabayon (the app not the distro) is a mess and hasn't worked well in two releases (despite still being in the repos). I need that to work.

    VPN. The voodoo in 8.10 to get PPTP or OpenVPN to work is nasty. A kind soul made it work weeks later and you still have to download his fix from the PPA even though he submitted his patches. This should have worked OOTB IMHO.

    Look I could go on here but I won't. Do you think we might put just a little energy into making what already exists work before trying to add anything new? Posting as AC to avoid the obvious karma whoring.

  47. Re:welcome to 2004, Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Gnome has had notifications forever, too. People donÂt really understand what this proposal is about.

  48. And and extension to that is... by davecb · · Score: 1

    Many moons ago at Siemens Sietec, a colleague did a similar notification/error popup, but didn't think to make it go away without your clicking it.

    However, the cool thing was what happened if you right-clicked it or clicked the "more" button: it displayed a series of messages, starting with the most meaningful to the user, usually written by the GUI designer. This was followed by messages from farther and farther down the call stack, until you got so something quite user-unfriendly like "invalid block count at inode #16538128".

    The sequence could be pasted into email by users if and only if they were inconvenienced by the thing the message reported.

    In effect, the message producer was an exception mechanism, handling both minor exceptions to the expected behavior and also more serious ones, and at each level the handler could and often would add their interpretation of the problem.

    The engineers loved the very precise pointers to the problem, and users enjoyed knowing that they could hand the nerds something useful, and not be grumbled at for reporting a problem but not knowing the solution(;-))

    --dave

    --
    davecb@spamcop.net
  49. NO POPUPS EVER AGAIN --- PLEASE!!!! !!! by gd23ka · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Seriously. I rarely use windows at all but the few times I do one thing really pisses me off completely
    You're typing text and all of the sudden some crap application (windows or 3rd party) decides it wants
    to popup either a splash screen or some alert dialog box.. and immediately the focus is taken away from
    the text window and given to the dialog box...

    Tell you what Windows assholes: Nothing you can popup is more important than what I'm typing. I don't
    give a fuck whether Outlook wants to compact my inbox. Don't pop up when I'm typing. It's like slapping
    the keyboard out of my hand.

    Here's how notification and popups need to be solved. Have a short queue of icons representing popups
    on the right upper corner of the screen. There can be a configurable message beep for each item (or one
    beep for multiple items should a lot of them popup at once). The icons can't blink or otherwise try to
    distract. If I click them the dialog box folds down Mac OSX style. I can configure it to expire dialog boxes
    if I chose to ignore them. In that case the application gets told the dialog has been cancelled. Optionally
    I can tell the application that I'm ignoring its popup and it is also then blacklisted for that dialog or for
    any dialog for that matter.

    The only time I can actually envision an exception to the icons not blinking or being distracting is if
    the OS or an app is reporting a catastrophic event (about to lose power, disk errors etc.).

    So I've been bitching about Windows but this is something I'd like anybody designing a desktop to
    think about.

    1. Re:NO POPUPS EVER AGAIN --- PLEASE!!!! !!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps you're so filled with self-righteous indignation that you never bothered to find out how to configure that. It's trivial to disable focus-stealing in most Window Managers, including explorer.exe (Windows XP's default WM).

      I'll get out of your way now, and allow you to continue ranting about things you know nothing about.

    2. Re:NO POPUPS EVER AGAIN --- PLEASE!!!! !!! by gd23ka · · Score: 1

      You wouldn't happen to have instructions handy on how to do that? I'd love to have a wad of registry keys I can just let
      regedit eat and be done with it. Other than that I don't think I'm ever going to have the energy and the time to burn to
      look into this.

      It's not that a high priority thing for me because I'm using OSX but still it would be neat for those few times I have to
      sit in front of a windows machine.

      Thanks

    3. Re:NO POPUPS EVER AGAIN --- PLEASE!!!! !!! by TuringTest · · Score: 1
      --
      Singularity: a belief in the "God" idea with the "demiurge" relation inverted.
  50. Re:welcome to 2004, Linux by pizzach · · Score: 1

    I actually run my computer without notifications. It's one of the reasons I chose Gnome to begin with. It always bugged the heck out of me how programs liked to pop up distracting bubbles.

    So with this I should have made it back to 2004. If I can figure out some of these other tricks, I should be able to return to my home time in 1984. The fashions back then were so much better.

    --
    Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
  51. Expiring passwords=useless (rant) by Nicolas+MONNET · · Score: 1

    I have to endure this stupid nonsense, where we have to change password every month,
    and it must have enough different characters,
    and it must have at least one number,
    and at least one punctuation,
    and you can't reuse a previous password, ...
    to achieve what?

    Care to guess what everybody's password ends up looking like?
    qwerty!1
    qwerty!2 the next month
    qwerty!3
    qwerty!4
    qwerty!5 ...

    Result = opposite of intent

    My luks passphrase has only letters, and you won't bruteforce it, trust me.

  52. An easier way... by El_Oscuro · · Score: 1
    1. Send email to everyone warning their machines will be rebooted at midnight, so they should save their work before they leave.
    2. As a domain admin:
      1. Create a text file with a list of each machine to be rebooted
      2. Create a batch file with the following:
        @echo off
        for /F %F in (machines.txt) do shutdown -r -m \\%F
    3. Submit it as scheduled job to run at midnight
    --
    "Be grateful for what you have. You may never know when you may lose it."
  53. Take a cue from computer games? by gringer · · Score: 1

    There are a few computer games that I have played that have notification systems. They are usually somewhat unobtrusive, give some indication that an event has happened, but don't show you the message or event until you interact with them.

    One in particular that I'm thinking of is Theme Hospital, where a little icon would pop up at the bottom of the screen and slide across, waiting for you to click on it to see the message (and deal with the situation as necessary). Once the event was dealt with (sometimes even without your interaction), the icon would disappear. There were different icons for information / decisions / visits, which made it easier to prioritise your management of the notifications.

    Other ones I can think of were "goal/achievement reached" notifications (different game). You'd know something had happened, but not what it was until clicking on the message area of the screen.

    --
    Ask me about repetitive DNA
  54. Hi, I'm Mark Shuttleworth.. by Linegod · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... and I'm going to tell you about things that already exist, that other people are working on and make it sound like it's exclusive to Ubuntu.

    Thank you for your time.

    --
    -- I care not for your foolish signatures.
  55. Never Interrupt the Workflow by awol · · Score: 1

    I think it is an experiment worth doing.

    I have spend about 15 years designing systems for the financial markets and almost without fail, at first instance, a customer will say "Such and such" an event is really important and the User must have something pop up and tell them. Well, it isn't.

    What I mean is that you really need to understand the "workflow" of a given situation and given that understanding it is almost always true that one should never interrupt the work that a User is currently doing with something that they "must" do to proceed. All you will do is annoy them.

    In every situation I encountered above, the customer came to understand why interrupting the workflow is never a good idea.

    These notifications are a good idea from that perspective. Besides if something really is "that important" there will be a better way of managing it than these kinds of things.

    What is interesting to me is the question of what is the best way to make these notofications appear. Again in the environment with which I am familiar, the "ticker" model seems to be a strong one. The most common implementation being a "page" (sometimes very small) of messages scrolling by with colour being used to indicate importance/severity/careworthyness. I reckon that the mock up shown is pretty good but I suspect that "colour coding" is a useful/necessary addition.

    --
    "The first thing to do when you find yourself in a hole is stop digging."
  56. With Line Breaks... by cyclomedia · · Score: 1

    The clue is in this part:

    >That makes them an interruption, not a notification.
    >And interruptions are a bag of hurt when you have things to do. I for one turn off as many notifications as possible.

    If i get a new email i dont mind a tray icon appearing that looks like an envelope but i DO NOT want a notification, or the taskbar button to flash, and i certainly do not want it to leap to the front of the screen. I would like to get on with doing whatever it was i was doing and check that tray icon once every hour or three to see if any emails have arrived.

    On a slightly side rant this is somewhat related to the way my mobile phone OS (Sony Erricson) annoys me. I leave my phone on silent 98% of the time - unless i'm expecting a call basically, and if i get a missed call i'll phone that person back, or sms them or email them at MY convenience. But my mobile shows a red icon and a splash screen saying basically "OMG YOU MISSED A CALL!!" and i have to open an option menu, scroll down three items and select "Dismiss" to make the splash and icon go away, it then says "ARE YOU INSANE!? IF YOU DON'T RING THEM BACK RIGHT NOW CIVILISATION MIGHT END!!?!?".

    And I click "Yes, Fuck Off"

    There's a Ray Bradbury short story about this, it's a good few decades old so muses about intercoms, fax machines and telephones but it ends with a guy sitting at his desk not getting any actual work done because he's constantly switching between them, all to the background of muzak. Sound familiar?

    --
    If you don't risk failure you don't risk success.
  57. Improve by increasing irrelevance? (and solution) by solprovider · · Score: 1

    "Notifications are only for things which you can safely ignore or miss out on." Fred explains well -- do not display anything that nobody needs to see.

    The best portion of this proposal is everything using Mark's API can be safely disabled completely. The bad is wasting effort on something completely useless. The worst result is splitting the interface for applications communicating with people. This interface does not allow actions, therefore any communications requiring actions must use a different interface so using this project requires multiple interfaces for communicating with people.

    Programmers were (and most are still) not trained about usability. A good interface for a messaging system would have been easy if dialog boxes with standardized buttons had not become common. Windowing systems also kept the modal model from the single-thread paradigm. Multi-threading has been used for performance rather than interfacing with people.

    Specifications: Only the front-end application can force message window to front. Applications can check whether a message was answered and receive the answer, preferably asynchronously, but people can switch applications freezing the current application if the response was mandatory and urgent. System may limit frequency of additions and checks by applications to prevent overloading. Every message appears in list interface and log(s). Reactivating a message moves to the top of list. List remembers first time, last time, and number of appearances. People can remove messages from list without using application-defined actions (to prevent fear that application dialog box's close action has other consequences.)

    The new API is simple. Only the first string is required in each function. Answers are the text of the parameter (so changing the order has no other effect.)
    Synchronous (application waits for answer, gaining focus automatically reopens message):
    action = ask_wait("Question", "Action1", "Action2", "Action3");
    Asynchronous (application can continue):
    ask_log("Question"); - Add to list without move messaging to front, and continue.
    id = ask_new("Question", "Action1", "Action2", "Action3"); - Add question, move to front, and continue.
    ask_again(id); - Move question to top of list and move messaging to front.
    action = ask_get(id); - Empty string if no answer.

    Should be easy to create library for use with Gnome, KDE, and Win32. Simplification includes:
    - Window title cannot be specified.
    - One standard font without decorations. This avoids Gnome's practice of using bold for the first line so the critical question at the end is less visible.
    - No images. Some systems add icons to indicate type of dialog. These types are unnecessary. People only care if they need to choose an answer.
    - Text is required for actions, hopefully ending the reign of OK|Yes|No|Cancel dialogs.

    Future possibilities include:
    - Filter/sort list by application and whether actions exist.
    - Incorporate the messaging system as a status bar in applications.

    An early version of this text was posted on the original article. The comment either will not appear until moderated or failed moderation. My website contains an expanded version.

    --
    I spend my life entertaining my brain.
  58. woosh by Sir_Lewk · · Score: 1
    My original comment seemed trollish because it *was* a troll. My responce to his reply was in a similar, lighthearted, tongue in cheek statement.

    Welcome to the internet, where people are not always trying to be as serious as you.

    --
    "linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)