DHS To Grab Biometric Data From Green Card Holders

An anonymous reader writes with this excerpt from Nextgov: "The Homeland Security Department has announced plans to expand its biometric data collection program to include foreign permanent residents and refugees. Almost all noncitizens will be required to provide digital fingerprints and a photograph upon entry into the United States as of Jan. 18. A notice (PDF) in Friday's Federal Register said expansion of the US Visitor and Immigrant Status Indicator Technology Program (US VISIT) will include 'nearly all aliens,' except Canadian citizens on brief visits. Those categories include permanent residents with green cards, individuals seeking to enter on immigrant visas, and potential refugees. The US VISIT program was developed after the Sept.11, 2001 terrorist attacks to collect fingerprints from foreign visitors and run them against the FBI's terrorist watch list and other criminal databases. Another phase of the project, to develop an exit system to track foreign nationals leaving the country, has run into repeated setbacks." Reader MirrororriM points out other DHS news that they're thinking about monitoring blogs for information on terrorists.

Comments

US citizens will be next?

[stupido]

Give it a couple of years and another homegrown terrorist. The only thing holding them back is that citizens, uh, vote!

Re:US citizens will be next?

[slugtastic]

Nothing a little propaganda can't fix.

Re:US citizens will be next?

[cayenne8]

I love this quote from the article : "Almost all non-citizens will be required to provide digital fingerprints and a photograph upon entry into the United States as of Jan. 18. "

I guess the 'small' exception to this are the 'few' illegal alien, non-citizens coming in periodically from the southern border.

So, if you want to avoid HS survellience, just come across the border along TX, AZ, CA.....and don't register. It has worked so far, I doubt they'll be changing that anytime soon....

Re:US citizens will be next?

[BSAtHome]

It doesn't hold them back. It takes a bit of getting used to. A homegrown terrorist would likely make it go a lot faster.

I really like to see the outcry of "we want security" the next time something happens. It looks like the US is shutting down step by step and heading directly into the dark ages. Who wants to deal with a bully? So, US citizens, if you are so afraid to die, you surely are more afraid of living.

Re:US citizens will be next?

[Toll_Free]

Do you not realize that it takes a picture to get an ID card?

Do you not realize that it takes a fingerprint (at least in my home state) to get an ID card?

Do you not realize that every fucking citizen in the US has given up a fingerprint or picture already?

What fucking slippery slope are you guys talking about? I mean, for real here.

Taking a picture of everyone entering the country, as well as a fingerprint.

OOOOoooOOhhh, let's get scared.

SINCE EVERY FUCKING CITIZEN WITH AN ID CARD HAS ALREADY GIVEN UP THEIR PICTURE.

And if the government actually wanted your fingerprint, getting it off a can, anything in your trash, etc. wouldn't be too hard, would it.

Give me a break. Requiring foreigners to submit to the same thing everyone else in the country has to. Man, that's SCARY, huh?

--Toll_Free

Re:US citizens will be next?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is this troll modded "insightful"? It says right in the submission that there's an exception for Canadians, never mind TFA.

Re:US citizens will be next?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you not realize that it takes a picture to get an ID card?

Ok.

Do you not realize that it takes a fingerprint (at least in my home state) to get an ID card?

And what shithole of a state do you live in? Not everyone lives in a shithole state.

Do you not realize that every fucking citizen in the US has given up a fingerprint or picture already?

No, in fact they haven't. That's the point.

More importantly, The sep 11 hijackers had legitimately issued id, in their own names.

Re:US citizens will be next?

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, the south border not North. Is it any wonder the majority of the world sees the whole of the USA as retards when they dont know which country they border in which direction.

Re:US citizens will be next?

[theshowmecanuck]

I find it hard to understand why many Americans don't understand why people in the world are sick and tired of America, and have lost most of their respect for the country. Especially as this article demonstrates, they are now treating many of their friends as criminals and enemies. After years of living and working in the U.S. I no longer want to have anything to do with the place, especially after being made to feel like a criminal the last time I went down there. I know... some nutbar patriot will yell at me "so stay the f**k out blah blah blah"... this is another problem with many down there. Patriotism blinds people too much to see the flaws of the current mindset there. A good example is how after the ridiculous Iraq war started, people would label others unpatriotic if you voiced your objection to it. Now of course, most in the U.S. realize this was a bad war entered into by a lie, poorly executed, poorly managed, and a waste of people's lives. But at the time, even the media lost their objectivity. Anyway, the reasons I feel like I do should be considered a symptom of the current state of affairs in the U.S. and a cause of concern. There are a lot of people outside of the U.S. that I talk to that don't like the U.S. I used to always take the side of the U.S. in conversations with them. I like the place. I liked the place. I now find it very difficult to side with America's point of view and actions, and don't side with America nearly as much in conversations with people. It no longer welcomes people... it eyes them with distrust and makes you feel like an outsider when you arrive at the border (hi welcome to America... foreigner... smile for the camera, give me your fingers). Distrust is only marginally this side of outright dislike and xenophobia. America, get some help, take off the tinfoil hat.

Re:US citizens will be next?

[kramer2718]

That's right. Soon the only people not in the government db will be those who entered the country illegally outside of designated entry points.

Re:US citizens will be next?

[BeerCat]

Bravo! well said!

(and to all those with mod points out there - mod parent up. You know it makes sense)

Re:US citizens will be next?

[BeerCat]

That's right. Soon the only people not in the government db will be those who entered the country illegally outside of designated entry points.

...or those who are running the government db.

(what, you thought they would be honest enough to include themselves?)

Re:US citizens will be next?

[flajann]

Paranoia in the US reigns supreme. Apparently, it somewhat does as well in Canada. But I am not sure that the annoyance going on with crossing from the US into Canada is not just 'tit for tat' of the nonsense that happens with Canadians attempt to cross into the US, or if Canada has taken on some paranoia of its own.

The last time I tried to cross the Canadian border was so annoying I have not bothered going back to Canada in a long time. Every since 9/11, paranoia has been reigning supreme.

Of course, tracking fingerprints and pictures will not make anyone more secure, since (a) the probability of dying from a terrorist attack is tiny in comparasion to many other daily dangers we embrace everyday without a second thought, like driving, for instance, and (b) the would-be terrorist organizations, if they are really all that inclined, need only find fresh recruits who have not been fingered by the FBI or Homeland Insecurity yet.

41,000 people die on US highways every year. How many people die in the US from terrorism every year? The attention to the so-called threat does not mesh with the actual facts and the real risk factors.

So I am not impressed in the least about any of this crap. Just another excuse for the government to stir up fear to create its own "need".

Re:US citizens will be next?

[flajann]

In my State, you have to give your picture for ID, but you can instruct the State NOT to keep said picture on record.I kinda like that. One of the many reasons I love New Hampshire.

Re:US citizens will be next?

[J. T. MacLeod]

You talk about all of those aspects as though they are unique to the US. In case it's somehow not blindingly obvious, they're NOT.

Japan already takes the measures mentioned in the article. The outrage was minimal.
Other countries have just the amount of blind patriotism and jingoism that let atrocities breeze by. No one seems to notice!

Keep focusing on the US, though. I know it's more gratifying to the ego to criticize entire groups of individuals as a whole, especially when they're presently king of the molehill. It sure beats introspection and humility!

Re:US citizens will be next?

[theshowmecanuck]

I will give you that. Canadian border (so called) guards are really a pain in the ass. Really, they are glorified tax collectors who will rip your car apart looking for something they can apply a duty to. They grill Canadians to see if you might look guilty and they can then have an excuse to search your vehicle. "Where are you going, whey are you going there", etc. etc. etc. My brother one time finally lost it and asked said to them, "look I'm a Canadian coming back to Canada, you can't deport me, so why are you giving me such a hard time." They searched his car for three hours in retaliation. They won't say it was retaliation, but we all know what happens when you step on a rent-a-cop's ego. And they are rent-a-cops. When they get word that bad guys might be trying to cross the border (like suspected murderers on the run), the Canadian border guards run away. This happened a couple of times in 2006 at the Peace Arch Crossing in British Columbia/Washington State (Highway 99/I-5 respectively). But at least you know they are after money and not treating anyone any different. Up until the last time I went to the U.S.A. I hated crossing into Canada more. But now, the U.S. wins the 'onerous prize'.

Re:US citizens will be next?

[theshowmecanuck]

I credit any other country that is doing this (and especially EU countries and Canada) to forced paranoia spreading from the U.S. These countries have to do business with the U.S. (you can't change economic patterns over night). They need to softly assuage America's fears by saying "see, we're being safe too... stop holding up our travellers and shipments and causing economic chaos."

Re:US citizens will be next?

[Anonymous Coward]

What a silly comment this is. I have a passport, a DL from a small eastern state containing a well-known Institute of Technology, and a few other pretty laminated cards that claim to be some sort of ID. No fingerprints given up, ever.

Re:US citizens will be next?

[Ian Alexander]

Giving up certain biometric information might be the norm for citizens of a country but until the US-VISIT program was announced I'd never heard of it for people who were only visiting. It's certainly not normal for any country I've ever been to and I've been to Canada, Mexico, the UK, Kenya, and India in my lifetime.

Re:US citizens will be next?

[flajann]

...Up until the last time I went to the U.S.A. I hated crossing into Canada more. But now, the U.S. wins the 'onerous prize'.

Yes, indeed. The last time I came back from Canada, the US ding dongs gave me a very hard time, and was deliberately trying to work up my ire. It's as if these guys have nothing better to do other than to harass border crossers.

To which I say, what's the point? What is gained by bad-assing people crossing the border? It's really takes from the whole idea of a "good getaway" if you are always being steamed at the border.

For me, it's a 3-4 hour drive to the border, and it's not something I look forward to. I suppose neither country sees any point in making it a pleasant experience for the tourist dollar. Gee, Canada, I am coming to your country to spend MY money there! Holy smokes. Maybe I'll just keep my money on this side of the border or save it for a more welcoming country.

Re:US citizens will be next?

[tnok85]

Texas, Arizona, and California border Canada?

Wow, I need to update my maps.

Re:US citizens will be next?

[ps2os2]

You are quite right (about how bad the world sees the US. Bush and company have set any gains we have had in the last 50 years. For that alone he should be impeached.

To get back to the main issue here there isn't really anything that can be done, IMO (that satisfies everyones concern about privacy).
Since Bush and company are literally stomping out all our rights (they have done so with prisoners at Getmo. ) Personally I think we should create a devils island for all the Bush people (including him) and put a fence around it to last 100 years, just in case any of them survive past the first year. Of course no lawyers are permitted and no food either.

Re:US citizens will be next?

[wannasleep]

The point is that to get a green card you must be cleared with the FBI, have almost every cavity of your body manually inspected, your picture and fingerprints taken and have a full medical check-up. So, what's the point of taking picture and fingerprints again every time a green card holder crosses the border? Do you really feel safer because DHS do it?

Re:US citizens will be next?

[Anonymous Coward]

Japan is far more ethnically homogeneous and it's unsurprising that there was minimal protest to laws which affect non-ethnically Japanese. The US is quite a different case.

Re:US citizens will be next?

[albertost]

Dont update anything... He's obviously talking about the border with Mexico

Re:US citizens will be next?

[Anonymous Coward]

Patriotism blinds people too much to see the flaws of the current mindset there. A good example is how after the ridiculous Iraq war started, people would label others unpatriotic if you voiced your objection to it.

Now of course, most in the U.S. realize this was a bad war entered into by a lie, poorly executed, poorly managed, and a waste of people's lives. But at the time, even the media lost their objectivity.

Sigmund Freud once said something regarding this, though I can't find the exact quote right now and I hope I get it right. Regardless of how right or wrong a war is, once a nation has gone to war, its citizens must support its troops or else be labeled unpatriotic or even treasonous. It is acceptable to be against the war as long as you support the troops.

Re:US citizens will be next?

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? I have never had any attitude or problems crossing back into Canada at land crossings and airports. They usually just look at my passport and say "welcome home". The US border guards are always assholes, but I havent really had a problem with them either except when applying for a work visa. When I did that, they basically called me a terrorist and threatened me left and right. It was a very unpleasant experience. I got denied and had to try again the next day. I had my lawyer call ahead and talk to the supervisor before I even got there, and then they were just fine. However, I now dread working in the US at all, and I do some extremely important work. Im never going to apply for another visa at the border, if I am going to be treated like a criminal Id rather just avoid the whole thing.

Re:US citizens will be next?

[theshowmecanuck]

Yeah... that was my experience when getting my visa the last time. Coupled with the photograph and finger printing, it seemed to really intend to make you feel like an outsider and not welcome. So I take that to heart.

Re:US citizens will be next?

[TechyImmigrant]

>The point is that to get a green card you must be cleared with the FBI, have almost every cavity of your body manually inspected, your picture and fingerprints taken and have a full medical check-up. So, what's the point of taking picture and fingerprints again every time a green card holder crosses the border? Do you really feel safer because DHS do it?

It depends what they're doing it for. They took my fingerprints as part of the green card process. If they're taking my fingerprint on the border as some sort of tracking, that's really dumb. They have my name, number and fingerprint already. If they are taking the fingerprint to match against the green card fingerprint database as some sort of biometric authentication that I'm really the guy associated with the green card, then that makes some sort of sense. Although in the big picture it is a waste of time, green card abuse isn't the greatest threat to my day to day health and safety.

Re:US citizens will be next?

[Richard_J_N]

Indeed. I, and my family have voted with our feet and our wallets. We used to come from the UK to the USA for 2 holidays a year, but decided to go elsewhere (mainly Europe or Canada) as a result of the fingerprint requirement. When the USA decides it wants to be hospitable, we'll come back; as long as they want fingerprints, we'll stay away. [I should add that we have "nothing to fear"; we just value our privacy.]

As we are financially fortunate, I estimate that the change in our vacation habits alone has diverted about $100k from the US economy.

Re:US citizens will be next?

[theshowmecanuck]

As we are financially fortunate, I estimate that the change in our vacation habits alone has diverted about $100k from the US economy.

I have a spare bedroom and am in Canada. Just in case you are interested. :-p

They are just thinking about doing that!?!?

[deft]

In a world where wiretaps, illegal searches, etc are very big issues, how on earth is simply keeping track of public and readily available, likely easily searchable blogs not an obvious choice over the other ways to gather information??

If slashdot had a terrorist corner, id expect the DHS to log in now and again. anything less would be negligent.

P.S. they should post anon. you know, for security.

Re:They are just thinking about doing that!?!?

[yetijoe]

Well that is our government for you... go ahead and do activities (wiretaps, searches) that can be very questionable. But we will wait until how long to start writing simple and cheep bots that go out and look from information that might be readily available on blogs. Then again cost is never really a consideration with government (they just say it is).

Re:They are just thinking about doing that!?!?

[TubeSteak]

In a world where wiretaps, illegal searches, etc are very big issues, how on earth is simply keeping track of public and readily available, likely easily searchable blogs not an obvious choice over the other ways to gather information??

Wiretaps happen in real time at chokepoints.
Illegal searches are relatively narrow.

Blogs = the internet. And searching that is a much harder and broader task.

I'm not defending the illegal government actions, just pointing out that what they've been doing is vastly easier than monitoring *the internet* for terrorist chatter.

Re:They are just thinking about doing that!?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

In 1954 the US and UK governments launched a telecommunications surveillance act and managed to tap pretty much every phone on earth. I believe it was called echelon back then.

A few years back, it was called predator. Now I believe they are calling it TIA, for total information awareness.

It isn't a matter of if it can be done, it is a matter of what it is being done for.

Because it is being done.

Re:They are just thinking about doing that!?!?

[Score Whore]

You do realize that the point here is not to compete with Google as an internet search engine, right? When was the last time someone blogged that they were going to stuff half a kilo of heroin up their ass and sneak it across the border, then rob a bank? The point is to try and improve security. While taking someone's fingerprint isn't going to stop them from committing a crime -- once someone has identified themselves by doing so (robbing a seven-eleven, raping a college co-ed, smuggling drugs or weapons) -- it provides a starting point for the investigation. Information like who they crossed the border with, what cities they are from, emergency contacts, etc. can be useful in ferreting out criminal networks.

Remember these people are guests in the United States. Like any other situation where a person is a guest, they don't get to come in and make themselves at home, sleep on your sofa and eat out of your fridge.

Re:They are just thinking about doing that!?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you for the suggestion. We will look into that.

-Dean Harold Smith

Re:They are just thinking about doing that!?!?

[lysergic.acid]

according to hitwise blog traffic comprises only 1.19% of all internet traffic in the UK, and the percentage for the US may be even lower since the market share of blog sites is 1.09% in the UK and 0.73% in the US.

so, saying "blogs = the internet" is not very accurate. monitoring blog sites would be far easier than trying to monitor the 6.2 billion overseas phone calls Americans make each year. unlike the voice data from phone calls, it's far easier to sift through the text data that constitutes most blog traffic. blogs are specifically designed to be easily monitored for updates with technologies like web feeds (RSS & Atom) which allow for easy syndication by encoding semantic information into the serialized data.

additionally, a very robust searching/indexing infrastructure is already in place on the web. there are even blog-specific search engines like Technorati. blogs are a means of publishing & broadcasting information on the web in an easily searchable format. in contrast, phone calls are a form of private 2-way communication.

Re:They are just thinking about doing that!?!?

[ZekeSpeak]

Remember these people are guests in the United States. Like any other situation where a person is a guest, they don't get to come in and make themselves at home, sleep on your sofa and eat out of your fridge.

If you wish to treat guests to your country in such a manner then I guess I'll choose somewhere more welcoming when I go on holidays or business.

Re:They are just thinking about doing that!?!?

[Score Whore]

No intent to be rude, but you won't be missed. There are many people from many countries that will have absolutely no problem with this.

Re:They are just thinking about doing that!?!?

[Falconhell]

Just because you say there are many people with have no problem with this does not make it true.

The people who "dont have a problem: are most like
illegal immigrant , or people from countries with similarly totalitarian governments anyway, You are right, I am sure Russians and Chinese will be used to such treatment.

I certainly would not consider traveling to the US
whilst such draconian measures are in place.

I would have thought a considerable reduction in tourism would be missed.

Re:They are just thinking about doing that!?!?

[Score Whore]

Just because you say there are many people with have no problem with this does not make it true.

Of course you have evidence for all your claims? I mean since you feel it is a valid argument to say "Just because you say ... does not make it true", you've got supporting evidence, right?

And in case you lacked the wisdom to read the linked documents, here's a quote for you: "From its inception on January 5, 2004 to the present, USâ"VISIT has biometrically screened more than 130 million aliens at the time they applied for admission to the United States."

I'd say 26 million people a year qualifies as many.

Now I'd like evidence for these claims of yours:

1 - The US Government is "similarly totalitarian" re. Russia and China.
2 - There will be a "considerable reduction in tourism" re. this new rule.

Personally, I don't think you have the capability to prove either one. That is, I'm going to paraphrase you: Just because you say it, doesn't make it true.

Re:They are just thinking about doing that!?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Overseas tourism having fallen by 17% in the past few years certainly says something.

Re:They are just thinking about doing that!?!?

[aaarrrgggh]

I don't get the point of asking green card holders for their fingerprints at the border; it is already stored in the green card itself. The only logical use is identity verification, which isn't really a privacy concern. The green card process pretty much kills any hopes of privacy!

Re:They are just thinking about doing that!?!?

[Tynam]

There's already been a "considerable reduction in tourism"; all the TSA screwing around at airports has tanked the tourist trade. Most people who can be discouraged from flying in already are; it's one of the factors that's been hammering the economy. Not likely to get much worse.

Re:They are just thinking about doing that!?!?

[Score Whore]

Since you failed to provide a source for your number, I stuck "overseas tourism 17%" into Google and got zero hits relevant to people coming to the U.S. I think you made that number up.

Great... How much longer till 1984?

[TheReaperD]

This doesn't effect me as I am a citizen. That said, this is getting ridiculous. This data doesn't do DHS any good for terror tracking as there has been research suggesting that the overwhelming amounts of information is a hindrance rather then a benefit. All it's good for is when the DHS, FBI, DEA, ATF, etc. decide they don't like you, they can dig through the data to find any trivial issue to drag you into an interrogation room and work you over.

Thankfully, with Obama becoming president, the odds of you getting Gitmo'd have reduced drastically. But, don't think that the three lettered thugs with badges will let this option be removed from them so easily. Only time will tell. I hope they reduce the base to rubble when we leave so it can't be easily reopened.

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[akcpe]

The grammar nazi in me urges a link to: http://www.drgrammar.org/faqs/#44

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[jcr]

This doesn't effect me as I am a citizen.

I disagree. Tolerating routine violations of privacy for one class of people desensitizes us to routine violations of privacy for everyone.

Thankfully, with Obama becoming president, the odds of you getting Gitmo'd have reduced drastically.

The odds were always far lower than the odds of getting killed by a drunk driver, but that's beside the point. The problem is that our government has gotten away with imprisoning people without charges for the first time since the Roosevelt administration, and the public outcry was negligible.

-jcr

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[yetijoe]

Be careful what you wish for, they might do it with the detainees inside...

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[ScrewMaster]

I disagree. Tolerating routine violations of privacy for one class of people desensitizes us to routine violations of privacy for everyone.

I would go a little further and say that systematic abuse of any class of individuals, no matter how unpopular, is something worthy of caution. Take punitive taxation of smokers, just to pick an example. I've never smoked, never will smoke, think it's a spectacularly bad idea ... but I still disagree with heavy taxes applied to cigarette sales. Why? Because if we tolerate governmental mistreatment of one group (no matter what the justification) the odds are they'll eventually do something that hits closer to home. Keep firmly in mind that a significant fraction of our leadership and senior bureaucrats are either sociopaths or have a few well-intentioned screws loose. Either way, it's best not to give them too much authority, because they'll misuse it.

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[Anonymous Coward]

This doesn't effect me as I am a citizen.

Indirectly it does. The current draconian and downright unpleasant entry procedure is already enough to put of a number of tourists to the United States. Expanding this to green card holders and permanent residents will likewise have an impact on the number of people who are willing to move to the United States. Both of these things will impact on the economy, both directly and indirectly.

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[rtfa-troll]

This doesn't effect me as I am a citizen.

Wrong.. Brazil has a policy of exact reciprocity with border regulations and (at least in theory; I think they often don't care in practice) takes Americans finger prints. Even more interesting, the UK is beginning to do exactly the same thing (take fingerprints of non-citizens), following on from the US example. US people are of course, not citizens of the UK.

However, part of your point is right. It's very difficult to get people to fight something where most of the time they aren't aware of a direct influence on their freedom.

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[jcr]

I have a somewhat different reason for opposing punitive taxation of smokers. First, taxation for behavior control is a terrible idea in itself; it's not the place of the government to command us. Secondly, the more money government gets by whatever means, the more government we'll have.

Either way, it's best not to give them too much authority, because they'll misuse it.

As PJ O'Rourke put it, giving money to governments is like giving whiskey and car keys to adolescents.

-jcr

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[nurb432]

It will also be slowly expanded to include citizens.

Give them an inch, and they take a foot.

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[ScrewMaster]

I have a somewhat different reason for opposing punitive taxation of smokers. First, taxation for behavior control is a terrible idea in itself; it's not the place of the government to command us. Secondly, the more money government gets by whatever means, the more government we'll have.

Either way, it's best not to give them too much authority, because they'll misuse it.

As PJ O'Rourke put it, giving money to governments is like giving whiskey and car keys to adolescents.

-jcr

I agree: we're talking about social engineering, and that rarely works out well, no matter how well-intentioned. And frankly, as an American I don't want to live in an engineered society.

Unfortunately, the U.S. Federal Government not only has the car keys, but the entire liquor cabinet as well. The situation has only worsened in that regard since the recent Federal takeover of a substantial part of the financial sector. Now, maybe that was a necessary move, and maybe it wasn't ... time will tell. But nevertheless the Feds now wield unprecedented power. It's more than a little unnerving.

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[hwyhobo]

All naturalized citizens have already gone through this process. It is only small groups of US-born citizens who have never applied for secret clearance, civil service jobs, or any others requiring background investigation. In other words, if you have managed to live sheltered somewhere under a rock, you have never been fingerprinted. Otherwise, it is too late for an outrage. Mind you, I am not making any emotional judgments one way or the other, I will leave that to others. I am just stating facts.

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn right.

And anyone who thinks Obama is going to make that much difference is smoking opium.

The USA is almost certainly in terminal decline, the final phase of empire.

Read Morris Berman's Dark Ages America and reflect on the trillions (sic) of $$$ borrowed by the US (mainly from China) in order to finance PNAC's illegal and immoral invasion of Iraq.

You guys ain't going to be able to afford to fix your broken, dysfunctional country.

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[nurb432]

Right, but much of the current tracking is not a 'coordinated' effort by the HSD.

Its that encroachment is what im concerned about.

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[Shakrai]

The problem is that our government has gotten away with imprisoning people without charges for the first time since the Roosevelt administration, and the public outcry was negligible.

Umm, you realize that we are at war, right? With people that don't follow the accepted laws of war. What should we do with them? Bring them into the United States and run them through the civilian justice system?

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[Ian Alexander]

Not necessarily but it's really not too much to ask that their basic human rights be respected, is it?

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[vaporland]

This doesn't effect me as I am a citizen.

no, but it may affect you eventually...

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you really?

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[jcr]

What should we do with them? Bring them into the United States and run them through the civilian justice system?

We should issue letters of marque and reprisal, and offer rewards for their capture. Back when we ratified the constitution, we had a very similar situation with the barbary pirates. If they're captured, they should be tried, convicted, and executed or imprisoned as the jury may find.

-jcr

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I'm 25 in February. Heck. So what like negative 24 years for the next 5 days?

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[Uberbah]

If there's a public outcry and the media ignores it, did it really happen?

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[Shakrai]

Not necessarily but it's really not too much to ask that their basic human rights be respected, is it?

Hey, if your issue is with torture then I'll join you for the protests. If your issue is with holding them without charges then you'll be protesting without me. Combatants are held for the duration of hostilities -- I don't recall anybody complaining that we weren't giving trials and due process to all the Japanese and German POWs that we captured.

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[Shakrai]

We should issue letters of marque and reprisal, and offer rewards for their capture

I think that's a great idea. It would never happen in the modern world though. More's the pity.

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[Anonymous Coward]

The long-term cost of smoking to society is estimated to be around $7 per pack of cigarettes smoked in medical care and lost productivity. Taxation is one way of internalizing these costs while at the same time increasing the incentive to not smoke. There's a Time article that covers a few other points for and against the taxes.

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[jcr]

I think that's a great idea.

It worked pretty well against piracy in the mediterranean and the caribbean in the late 1700s and early 1800s.

It would never happen in the modern world though.

Oh, I'm not sure of that. Some of the countries with coastlines near Somalia are getting pretty fed up with today's pirates.

-jcr

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[Shakrai]

Oh, I'm not sure of that. Some of the countries with coastlines near Somalia are getting pretty fed up with today's pirates.

The only reason those pirates are getting away with it is because nobody has the political will to take them out. That said, a lot of nations gave up the right to issue letters of marque under the Declaration of Paris. The United States wasn't one of those nations though -- we could still issue them. Seems to me like it would have been an effective way to go after Al Quada.

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[moortak]

We have no way to win a war on terrorism. It is a tactic, not an enemy. Holding someone until the end of hostilities with no charges in an endless war is a pretty bad idea.

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[Anonymous Coward]

Give them an inch, and they take a foot.

That's, "Give someone an inch and they'll take a mile." Unless of course you meant to say "Give them an inch, and they will sever your foot", in which case you are likely right.

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[ScrewMaster]

The long-term cost of smoking to society is estimated to be around $7 per pack of cigarettes smoked in medical care and lost productivity. Taxation is one way of internalizing these costs while at the same time increasing the incentive to not smoke. There's a Time article that covers a few other points for and against the taxes.

Oh, there are always good justifications for major social-engineering projects. And this is one that a lot of people (mostly non-smokers) have no problem with because they don't feel it affects them ... let those nasty smokers pay for their own bad habits. The problem, as I said before, comes in when the Feds decide (for whatever reason) that they're going to come after you for some other heavy-duty tax to save you from yourself. I mean, what are the consequences, say, of a diet heavy in fast-foods? Should be taxing the hell out of Big Macs? The social costs of diabetes (and other dietary-related conditions) are comparable to tobacco. What about driving? People die from that all the time, both from traffic accidents and pollutants. Electric power? Thousands of people die every year because of power-plant emissions ... some number from cancer caused by thorium emissions from coal burning. There are many, many products and activities that cause long-term harm to human beings. Do we tax them all?

It's a bad road to be going down.

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[Shakrai]

Holding someone until the end of hostilities with no charges in an endless war is a pretty bad idea.

And letting someone go who has professed a desire to kill Americans is an even worse idea.

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[jcr]

And anyone who thinks Obama is going to make that much difference is smoking opium.

Speaking of Obama and smoking, it looks like anyone who was hoping for an abatement of the war on drugs is out of luck.

-jcr

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[sjames]

I am a citizen and I am certain that it affects me in several ways.

First, some of my friends are here on a green card. I resent my tax money being spent to harass my friends.

Second, I would like it very much if what little decent reputation my country still has wasn't pissed away at my expense.

Finally, each time these crazy paranoid TLAs manage to grab a chunk of my tax money to implement their latest Stasi dream, they get bolder about grabbing both my money and my rights.

After Obama closes Gitmo, I'd really like to see him phase out funding for DHS, and DEA, but that might take some doing.

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thankfully, with Obama becoming president, the odds of you getting Gitmo'd have reduced drastically. But, don't think that the three lettered thugs with badges will let this option be removed from them so easily. Only time will tell. I hope they reduce the base to rubble when we leave so it can't be easily reopened.

Oh sure, Obama might close Gitmo and stop looking for terrorists. But if you think that means the invasion-of-your-privacy tour has ended, you're dead wrong. It will just be used for different purposes.

For instance, someone has to pay for all of the programs. How else but through enhanced levels of taxation? NY state just invented dozens of new taxes, including "entertainment", fat-tax, and soon to be bit-wise taxes. These would not be assignable or collectable without big brother, deep-packet-inspection techniques. All will be done "for the common good" and "for the children".

Clinton tried to make deadbeat dad status an FBI Top-ten crime. No doubt, new technologies will enable the state to make you an unperson overnight if you fail to pay up, even for kids that aren't yours. Disable your vehicle via satellite for immediate impound, flag your ID to negate all purchase transactions (we're not far from being cashless already - witness Ebay's latest Paypal mandate), sequester your mail, track your remaining cash/assets with RFID - it will all be justified by the new nanny-state.

Re:Great... How much longer till 1984?

[moortak]

We need either trials, releases, or conditions under which this war could be won or lost. i would rather have a few nuts running loose killing people than a massive erosion of the concept of due process.

Redundant (not this post, but these fingerprints)

[whoever57]

In order to become a resident alien (green card holder), fingerprints and photos are already taken by the DHS (was INS). So how is this going to help? Can't they digitize the existing fingerprints?

Well

[jav1231]

"Almost all noncitizens will be required to provide digital fingerprints and a photograph upon entry into the United States as of Jan. 18."

I have no problem with doing this to non-citizens. I realize this will result in extrapolations into citizens, killing children, torturing puppies and the like but I'm saying tracking non-citizens is just common sense.

Re:Well

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? Would you be willing to visit another country if they were going to keep your fingerprints and photo on file? Do you think this might have ever so slight an effect on tourism?

Re:Well

[BeerCat]

but I'm saying tracking non-citizens is just common sense.

Of course, if it really was "common sense", then it's the kind of thing that would have been in place for decades. Ergo, it is not "common sense", but yet another "security theatre" response.

Re:Well

[Xugumad]

Hell, as a non-citizen considering trying to move to the US (to be with a US citizen), I don't have a serious problem with this. Moving country is an exceptional event, and even before the whole terrorism scare it would be quite reasonable to check things like you're not letting in foreign spies.

I would look for them to say they'll get rid of the data if you become a citizen, but beyond that this isn't any more unreasonable than anything else you're asked to do to get a green card.

Re:Well

[Anonymous Coward]

...it is not "common sense", but yet another "security theatre" response.

Fear is their business and business is good.

Re:Well

[Anonymous Coward]

I think its rude and unwelcoming. I feel embarrassed as a US citizen to be subjecting you to this, even if it doesn't bother you. Unless you're coming to work here at a nuclear power plant or some other sensitive area, this is just for show. Even if it did offer some measure of security, It hardly seems worth it.

Re:Well

[dave562]

The technology wasn't in place decades ago. The technology is here now, and so it is happening. The internet grew out of a military communications network. It was initially used between RESEARCH institutes. The entire foundation of the network has this kind of thing built into its DNA. Hell, when the system was first built you could "finger" pretty much any box out there and see who is logged in and doing what. That was a big fat privacy invasion right there.

Re:Well

[Toll_Free]

Yeah, 150 years ago we had fingerprinting capabilities, border patrols like we have now, data mining capabilities, wierdos and wackjobs wanting to kill anyone related to democracy or an agenda that doesn't agree with their own, etc.

The list goes on, and so does the drivel. Bottom line is this is a non-story, as fingerprints have always been required. The only story here is they will be kept on file, digitally, as well as pictures will be taken: Which happened as soon as people got here ANYWAY, so they could get a fucking ID card.

--Toll_Free

Re:Well

[Toll_Free]

The data will be kept regardless.

Try getting a picture ID card without giving up a picture. Or a passport, or anything else government related that requires a picture.

And if your scared of your fingerprints, I guess you better cut your fingers off.

TinFoilAssHattery on Christmas. Jesus Fing Christ.

--Toll_Free

Re:Well

[Anonymous Coward]

How would you like having your prints and mugshot taken next time you travel to a foreign country?

Re:Well

[jcr]

tracking non-citizens is just common sense

How about preemptively incarcerating members of some other class of people that you despise? That worked out so brilliantly when FDR did it to the Japanese-Americans, didn't it?

Get bent.

-jcr

Re:Well

[BeerCat]

Bottom line is this is a non-story, as fingerprints have always been required.

Ah, that's "always", as in "we have always been at war with Eurasia... err, always been at war with Eastasia"

Re:Well

[Myrkridian42]

Of course, if it really was "common sense", then it's the kind of thing that would have been in place for decades.

Yes, because the government always gets it right the first time.

Monitoring Blogs

[the eric conspiracy]

Sounds like a good way to poison your monitoring database.

Re:Monitoring Blogs

[pomegranatesix]

Yup, monitoring blogposts is going to be TOTALLY useful. I can already see the blog posts that they'll have to be reading through:

"Dear Allah,
It's me, Muhammad. How do you deal with peer pressure? I mean, like, my friends have been pressuring me to join the jihad against the infidels. They've all joined the jihad, except for me. I really want to, but my mom won't let me. She's so uncool! What should I do?"

or

"Today I tried to talk to this hot chick in my engineering class, but she totally ignored me. Well, fuck that bitch - in a few days I'm going to be partying it up with 72 fine-ass virgins! YEAH! And that bitch will burn in hell with the rest of the infidels."

or

"Ugh! Service with homemadebombs.com is HORRIBLE! I ordered 300 pounds of ammonium nitrate, and it took them FOREVER to ship. When they did, they only shipped me half my order! I'm still waiting for my bulk shrapnel to come in. I'm never going to do business with these guys again."

Re:Monitoring Blogs

[ScrewMaster]

Sounds like a good way to poison your monitoring database.

I have the feeling there's more noise than signal in there already anyways. If you're collecting data that is ostensibly this important (I mean, what's more important that stopping terrorists?) then you tend towards a myopic, packrat-like view ... don't throw anything away, don't get too selective, because you might miss something, might not be able to bring up some important factoid on command. So, these guys just squirrel away anything and everything and don't worry too much about filtering.

Matter of fact, that's not the only resemblance they have to squirrels. But we won't go into that right now.

D.H.S.

[MRe_nl]

der heutigen Stasi.

Monitoring blogs for terrorist info?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do terrorists normally maintain blogs detailing their activities and upcoming events?

Has Osama bin Bloggin'?

With all this information collected ..

[koutbo6]

since biometric security relies on information that is unique to an individual, couldn't such moves undermine biometric security efforts? what if all this information falls into the wrong hands?

Closing stages of republican administration

[unity100]

these all are the eggs laid by the top management republicans staffed those organizations with. leave aside creating them in the first place.

unbelievable isnt it ? they are 1 month from being fired, yet still try to force their agenda.

actually not. self centered, extremist right groups tend to lose perception of reality after a point. nazis at the closing stages of the war, or nixon still saying he is an honest man, are examples of that.

Boycott the U.S.

[Anonymous Coward]

Like the title says let them fester in their own Bible thumping fanaticism. Don't buy ANYTHING American. See how long they last.

Re:Boycott the U.S.

[Ian Alexander]

I already don't buy anything made in America. It's kind of hard to when you live there!

Re:Boycott the U.S.

[hwyhobo]

I already don't buy anything made in America

And this came up how?

Re:Boycott the U.S.

[Ian Alexander]

It must have been this subtle, easy-to-misinterpret phrase that occurred in the post I was responding to:

Don't buy ANYTHING American

Re:Boycott the U.S.

[hwyhobo]

It must have been this subtle, easy-to-misinterpret phrase that occurred in the post I was responding to

Yes, it must have been very subtle, since it is nowhere to be found.

Re:Boycott the U.S.

[Ian Alexander]

You must not be trying hard enough. I get a post by an anon coward with a zero score when I hit the parent button. See: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1073255&cid=26230671

Re:Boycott the U.S.

[Ian Alexander]

Also, the phrase had to occur SOMEWHERE in this discussion since I just copied and pasted the text. Last I checked Mac OS X wasn't able to copy-and-paste from delusions.

Re:Boycott the U.S.

[hwyhobo]

Thank you, I can see it now. For some reason I couldn't see any "Score: 0" posts. Must be a setting thingie. Yeah, copy-and-paste from delusions would be an interesting feature. I get an impression some of the executives I know use it extensively.

May be I am stupid...

[bogaboga]

...but could somebody explain to me how capturing these data enhances "National Security."

It might be a waste of time because folks who harm this country's citizens are more oftem willing to die. That is after harming the country anyway.

Secondly, our borders are porous to the extent that we've failed to stem the flow of drugs despite spending close to a trillion dollars on "border security."

I just do not understand.

Re:May be I am stupid...

[dave562]

Bad guy A drives a car to target B and leaves his finger prints all over the place. Target B gets destroyed but the biometric evidence is left behind. Law enforcement collects the biometric data from Bad Guy A and runs it through the big data warehouse in the sky. They then presumably know all that there is to know about him. At the very least, they know where he came into the country, where he has been living and from there, perhaps who has been associating with.

I know a guy who works with the Secret Service and very well might be one of the primary agents protecting Obama once he gets into the White House. We've had long conversations about what the government does and what their capabilities are with regards to intelligence gathering. Despite all of the rhetoric about big brother and loss of privacy, I'm quite comfortable knowing that unless I'm actively trying to destablize the government, they don't care about what I am up to.

Re:May be I am stupid...

[jcr]

I'm quite comfortable knowing that unless I'm actively trying to destablize the government, they don't care about what I am up to.

Do you trust all future administrations with anything they might find out about you? Don't forget that Dick Nixon and Bill Clinton both illegally accessed IRS records on their political opponents, for example.

-jcr

Re:May be I am stupid...

[dave562]

I realize I am going to sound like someone who "doesn't" have anything to hide, but I don't. That's not to say that I support whole sale eavesdropping and privacy violations because I don't. However, I'm not planning on engaging in any crimes or activities that will draw attention. I know felons, both state and Federal, for crimes ranging from computer crimes, to serious drug cases. In all the cases, those people have deserved what they got and knew what they were doing was illegal.

Of all the people in law enforcement who I know, they are all focused on protecting society and locking up people who want to cause harm to others. I know that there seems to be a popular perception of political persecution. Our country certainly is corrupt. Our officials are just better at hiding it than their counterparts in places like Mexico. But just based on the experience I've had with the law enforcement community, trampling on our civil rights are the last thing they want to do. They have real problems to focus on, like drug gangs and other violent enterprises.

Re:May be I am stupid...

[DigitAl56K]

Despite all of the rhetoric about big brother and loss of privacy, I'm quite comfortable knowing that unless I'm actively trying to destablize the government, they don't care about what I am up to.

Today. But as their technology programs are expanded they may be forced to care about what you're up to. What happens the day a computer data-mining program decides that your purchase, travel, or association activities are too far outside the norm (perhaps not even specifically troublesome) and flags you for investigation? It would be irresponsible of them to ignore this and future laws will probably accept this as a reasonable basis for investigation, if they don't already.

You have the expectation that the government will always make rational decisions and policies. It's funny what can and has been rationalized.

Re:May be I am stupid...

[dave562]

What you are talking about already happens. If you try to buy certain chemicals, the DEA cares. If you try to purchase a bunch of fertilizer the BATF cares. If you move around certain amounts of money, the IRS cares.

We live in a country with a justice system. Just because you might be investigated for something does not mean that you're going to jail. If you have a legit reason to be in possession of something then you don't have anything to worry about. If you're a professional chemist, you can get precursor chemicals. If you're a farmer you can buy large quantities of fertilizer.

Look at what happened with the Maryland PD when they engaged in illegal intelligence gathering. It came out. It made national headlines and they had to knock it off.

If you want to live a paranoid dellusion feel free. I spent a lot of my life in the same place. I was freaked out about my privacy. I was using PGP back in 1992. I did lots of Federally illegal things. Once I grew up and started acting lawfully, I really stopped caring about what law enforcement was up to. Once I had some in depth conversations with both Feds and local cops, I realized what their intentions really are. They simply don't care about what you and I are up to. Unless you're plotting violent insurrection or engaging in large scale drug distribution operations, they don't care. You can whine and cry about how much the country sucks and they will respect your right to do so.

Re:May be I am stupid...

[Anonymous Coward]

You would not say this if you were Muslim, of Arabic decent, had a beard.

Re:May be I am stupid...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm quite comfortable knowing that unless I'm actively trying to destablize the government, they don't care about what I am up to.

Then you've missed the point. What if the government develops to the position where you cannot challenge laws and officials are not elected. Would it still be ok? Are you "quite comfortable" with that too?

Re:May be I am stupid...

[Anonymous Coward]

Nor if you are a brown man (be it a hindu or muslim)

Re:May be I am stupid...

[Anonymous Coward]

A guy in the "secret" service telling you the governments capabilities, which are presumably secret. Very professional indeed.

And if your assertion is that he was telling you things that are NOT secret..ie public information, care to provide a link so the rest of us can be as comfortable as you?

Also, I have a friend who works in the banking industry and he might very well be personally overseeing the bailout. We have had long conversations, and based on those, I feel comfortable putting my money in private equity funds selling the opportunity to buy bridges in brooklyn.

Re:May be I am stupid...

[gnud]

Despite all of the rhetoric about big brother and loss of privacy, I'm quite comfortable knowing that unless I'm actively trying to destablize the government, they don't care about what I am up to.

The problem is, who decides what 'actively trying to destabilize' means?

Re:May be I am stupid...

[radtea]

...I'm quite comfortable knowing that unless I'm actively trying to destablize the government, they don't care about what I am up to.

I wonder if George Washington or Thomas Jefferson would have been quite as comfortable about that as you are, seeing as the freedom to be "actively trying to destablize the government" was a right they were willing to die to protect.

American was founded by anti-government terrorists who wanted to create a new government that was far more limited than the one they had been fighting. The limited government they created has been eroded over the past 200+ years and replaced with the Leviathan you have now, which is limited only by its physical inability to actually process all the information on citizens (or should that be 'subjects'?) that it collects.

Re:May be I am stupid...

[Monchanger]

The founders did not attempt to destabilize the monarchy, despite their ill will towards- and actions against the crown. They chose to declare independence from the empire and found a just society which avoided the possibility of tyranny. There's a big difference.

The right they fought for was a constitution, ensuring a democratically elected government which worked for the people and did not abuse them. Despite Republican claims they did not chant the "small government" mantra- they sought States' rights, so that people could live according to their own beliefs without an over-arching figure dictating unnecessary laws that were unnecessary for the protection of the union (e.g. federal "marriage protection" and anti-abortion laws).

What has eroded is the ability of a government to be limited in a much more complex world than the one in which our forefathers lived. I would love keep the taxes I pay to the department of transportation, but maintaining airports and highways is a little more important to me. Sure, there's waste, and that should be addressed, but to say government should be "limited" is simply naive acceptance of a cheap electioneering tactic.

Want to make government smaller? Vote out incumbents, demand your representatives pay attention to citizens' lobbying rather than corporate, and go work for it to replace an incompetent bureaucrat with a better one. Posting rhetoric here won't push your agenda far.

Why not Canadians?

[similar_name]

Whatever argument that is made for this project, the exception for Canadians smacks of racism or at least culturalism (is that a word?)

How come no one ever complains that Canadians take our high paying manufacturing jobs in the north. Is it because they're white?

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally against this and just want to point out that it has more to do with not trusting those that don't look and act like us than anything else eh.

Re:Why not Canadians?

[xra]

Because we are the 51st state...

Re:Why not Canadians?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because (Canada is) the 51st state

Not quite yet. But give that slimey minority-supported douchebag that is trying to cling to the title PM a few more months in power and we will be.

Re:Why not Canadians?

[Mashiki]

Might have something to do with we sell you more oil then opec, more forestry products then you farm, more unrefined and in some cases refined goods you produce, more bulk raw minerals including diamonds. That if you want to keep oil flowing from alaska, you play nice, and if you like using our ports you do the same.

We also export people in the winter to the sunny southern US to keep it alive down there. On top of that we don't take anything, we have our own industry that lives on it's own. You decided you wanted cheaper and shipped your jobs to china/mexico and everywhere else. But don't worry! Up here, you can find that we have our own thriving manufacturing jobs that are slowly in decline along with the rest of the world.

Generally you don't go pissing in the guy's cereal when they're the ones supplying you with the goods and providing you with most of your base wealth, along with an entire new generation of brains because your edumucation system is in slow decline.

Re:Why not Canadians?

[homer_s]

we have our own industry that lives on it's own.

Really? You make your own micro-processors? How about rubber? Aircrafts?

Re:Why not Canadians?

[Anonymous Coward]

ever heard of bombardier?

Re:Why not Canadians?

[Score Whore]

...and if you like using our ports you do the same.

Actually, we don't give a shit about your ports, we have plenty of ports of our own and many of them don't get buried in snow five months a year.

Generally you don't go pissing in the guy's cereal when they're the ones supplying you with the goods and providing you with most of your base wealth, along with an entire new generation of brains because your edumucation system is in slow decline.

It's a two way street there. Don't get too smug, Canada needs the US more than the US needs Canada. And no, you don't provide the US with wealth, goods are only imported because it's cheaper to do so than to manufacture them internally. If ever the dollar returns to parity with the looney for an extended period of time, Canada will start hurting.

Re:Why not Canadians?

[ScrewMaster]

edumucation system

Sounds ... sticky, somehow.

Re:Why not Canadians?

[Anonymous Coward]

Aircraft:
http://www.bombardier.com/en/aerospace

Rubber:
http://www.rubberassociation.ca/about_rac.html

And it looks like AMD doesn't even have manufacturing facilities in the US (though, Canada and the US both have Research and Development facilities):
http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/AboutAMD/0,,51_52_502_15156,00.html

What do you think Canada is? Some third world country?

Re:Why not Canadians?

[Mashiki]

Aircraft yep, rubber we can make from base or synthetics, microprocessors it depends. We do have a few micro-fabs here.

Re:Why not Canadians?

[Mashiki]

Actually, we don't give a shit about your ports, we have plenty of ports of our own and many of them don't get buried in snow five months a year.

Actually you do. Our ports don't, vancouver never freezes and halifax is open 10+mo a year. The only ports that freeze are in the great lakes, you know the ones that ship out the majority of the grain to the rest of the world.

It's a two way street there. Don't get too smug, Canada needs the US more than the US needs Canada. And no, you don't provide the US with wealth, goods are only imported because it's cheaper to do so than to manufacture them internally. If ever the dollar returns to parity with the looney for an extended period of time, Canada will start hurting.

We don't need you, as much as you need us. That's the current reality of the world economy. We're a net exporter of finished and unfinished goods. Not a net importer. If you don't understand that, I'll explain. It means that if you throw a hissy fit, we simply say 'our market is now europe' and they buy our goods, or japan, or anyone else. While you're very good at consuming our goods, and tell me something do you even have the manufacturing base left to make anything? Or has it all been bulldozed over or left to rot. While we haven't had the manufacturing decay that you have, it still exists on some levels say textiles.

In the end it doesn't really matter if the Canadian dollar reaches US parity again, when the government already realized that having one free trade agreement doesn't guarantee a steady source of trade, and more are needed. And we can bank against the AUS, Yen and Euro.

Re:Why not Canadians?

[McLuhanesque]

The reason this doesn't apply to Canadians has to do with cross-border transport of both finished goods and raw materials. Truckers from both Canada and the U.S. routinely cross the border to minimize transportation distance (among other things, like providing just-in-time inventory supply). Doing the whole fingerprint/photograph thing would interfere significantly with commerce and manufacturing in both countries, so that's why the exception.

Re:Why not Canadians?

[similar_name]

What about Mexico? Goods don't cross there? And terrorist would never enter through Canada right? I thought this was about security, why the huge loop hole (5,525 miles of it)?

Yes there is more trade with Canada, 49 billion dollars worth in Oct of 08, but there was 40 billion dollars worth with China and 34 billion with Mexico source, they don't get an exception.

Do you believe that if Mexico did more trade with us, that we would make an exception for them?

Re:Why not Canadians?

[Score Whore]

Actually you do.

Yeah, because of the fifty busiest ports in the world, Canada has one on the list (Vancouver) and the United States has six and five of them move more cargo than Vancouver.

The only ports that freeze are in the great lakes, you know the ones that ship out the majority of the grain to the rest of the world.

This confuses me. Not the freezing ports part, but the grain shipping, because the US exports twelve times as much grain as Canada. With 22% going via California, and the next 16% going via Washington and New York.

It means that if you throw a hissy fit, we simply say 'our market is now europe' and they buy our goods, or japan, or anyone else.

Yeah, because Asia is going to totally want to import goods from a half way around the world where it's twice as expensive to produce the goods, than they will from multiple countries right next door where labor is cheaper. I mean why import goods from Malaysia into Japan when you can ship stuff from Canada.

And yeah, I agree, it's going to be totally trivial for Canada to find new markets for 80% of their total exports. Not.

While you're very good at consuming our goods, and tell me something do you even have the manufacturing base left to make anything?

I don't know. Maybe air planes, heavy equipment, trucks, microprocessors, DRAM & flash. Then of course we have things like tanks, airplanes & submarines, aircraft carriers, fighter planes & submarines. And there are vaccines and medicines.

But, hey, we import our socks, so yeah, I can totally see why you'd think the US isn't capable of producing anything.

The only reason the US imports manufactured goods is because it's cheaper. Barring protectionist policies, every industrialized country does the same.

Re:Why not Canadians?

[yabos]

"... Aircrafts?"

Ever heard of Diamond Aviation with a manufacturing plant in London Ontario Canada? Which also happens to be next to the London International Airport.

Re:Why not Canadians?

[radtea]

Because Americans and Canadians don't so much engage in cross-border trade as build things together. In the (soon to be defunct) automotive industry it is not uncommon for a finished vehicle to contain parts that have crossed the border a couple of times in the course of manufacturing.

Border impediments would hurt Americans in the only thing they care about: their wallets.

Getting worse than the old USSR?

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember the fear of being asked for "Your papers?" in the old USSR?. This is going to be just as bad - this junk needs to stop. How you you feel as an American citizen, when going into another country, and being fingerprinted, retinal scanned, etc.

Lack of privacy, unreasonable search, etc..... I say no way.

Re:Getting worse than the old USSR?

[Alex Belits]

Remember the fear of being asked for "Your papers?" in the old USSR?

No. And I lived there. USSR had single document -- passport -- serving as the primary ID for everything. "Your papers?" stuff was from Nazi Germany, where government was extremely concerned about losing track of ethnic minorities, what seems to be the exact equivalent of this "effort" in US.

Re:Getting worse than the old USSR?

[moosesocks]

Like it or not, the bill of rights doesn't apply to non-citizens. The government is well within its rights here, and this sort of thing isn't terribly uncommon in the world of customs and immigration.

As far as I can tell from TFA, the new program doesn't include tourists or students... only people intending to reside within the US on a long-term basis.

The only thing you have to worry about as a US Citizen is our image abroad. I'm not thrilled about these measures.... however, sarcastic political hysterics and lies rarely ever help change things.

Re:Getting worse than the old USSR?

[Ihmhi]

So all a terrorist has to do is come into the States under the auspices of being a tourist or student. Lovely.

Re:Getting worse than the old USSR?

[SwedishPenguin]

The program doesn't include tourists and students because that's included in another program, and has been for several years now.
I know this because I was a student in the US for a period of 6 months in 2005 and was required to surrender my fingerprints to enter the country.

Re:Getting worse than the old USSR?

[ClosedSource]

"Like it or not, the bill of rights doesn't apply to non-citizens."

Where in the bill of rights does it say that?

Re:Getting worse than the old USSR?

[sjames]

Actually, it does! The Constitution applies to the U.S. government, stating what it may and may not do to or for ANYONE.

In the few cases where the Constitution means for something to apply only to citizens, it is spelled out quite clearly (things like voting, being eligible for the presidency, etc).

Re:Getting worse than the old USSR?

[rve]

and this sort of thing isn't terribly uncommon in the world of customs and immigration.

I don't know. I travel a lot, and the USA is the only place where I'm finger printed and photographed every time I enter, and where I'm required to provide all the addresses where I'll be staying. The airline is also required to provide my credit card number and other personal data to homeland security prior to every flight.

I'm also required to fill out a form stating that I'm not a terrorist.

It's not that I presume to have any rights in a foreign country, just that I don't entirely agree with your statement that this sort of thing isn't terribly uncommon in the world of customs and immigration. China and Russia don't do it for example.

As far as I can tell from TFA, the new program doesn't include tourists or students... only people intending to reside within the US on a long-term basis.

Tourists and students were already included in this, as I understand it, what's new is that it is being extended to legal residents.

The only thing you have to worry about as a US Citizen is our image abroad. I'm not thrilled about these measures.... however, sarcastic political hysterics and lies rarely ever help change things.

"Image" abroad is an intangible thing that doesn't directly affect anyone. Does any American really care what foreigners think of them?

You might be more affected by reciprocal measures when traveling abroad. If another country were to start treating American visitors the same way, there would be a diplomatic incident.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2004-01-06-brazil-usa_x.htm

They're already doing this?

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, last time I entered the country (a couple months ago), they're already taking every non-citizen's fingerprints. The lines were really long.

Re:They're already doing this?

[Anonymous Coward]

No. The lines you saw were all non permanent residents and non citizens - i.e. people on various types of visa. They form one section of lines. The other is for permanent residents and citizens which are usually faster. I have been to both of them at various times in last 5 years.

Re:They're already doing this?

[f1vlad]

Yeah, indeed. Last time I entered was before 911, while being non-citizen or non-resident for that matter -- didn't need to do anything like that.

Tagged slipperyslope

[n3tcat]

for obvious reasons

Pathetic

[Anonymous Coward]

terrorists increasingly use the Internet to plan bombings, recruit members and spread propaganda.

The security services already know who the PNAC nutjobs are. Who cares what communications tools are used if they're going to let known perps get away with their actions?

Really hope this goverment goes bankrupt!

[GlobalColding]

Seriously, I really hope this corrupt government goes bankrupt before they finish off choking the Constitution and the People of this great country. They are spending the money they do not have.

how exactly is it new?

[BigGerman]

I entered US as a refugee in 91 and got green card in 94. I was photographed and fingerprinted on both occassions. What is big deal?

Re:how exactly is it new?

[Angstroem]

I entered US as a refugee in 91 and got green card in 94. I was photographed and fingerprinted on both occassions. What is big deal?

That you still didn't manage to even get a decent sense of the language of the very country you reside in for almost 18 years now?

Re:how exactly is it new?

[moosesocks]

I entered US as a refugee in 91 and got green card in 94. I was photographed and fingerprinted on both occassions. What is big deal?

That you still didn't manage to even get a decent sense of the language of the very country you reside in for almost 18 years now?

I believe that should be "you've resided in"

English is a difficult language. Get over it.

Re:how exactly is it new?

[Meumeu]

That you still didn't manage to even get a decent sense of the language of the very country you reside in for almost 18 years now?

He's only trying to speak English as badly as Americans...

To help the non-germanophiles . . .

[PolygamousRanchKid]

der heutigen Stasi.

. . . this means something like, "today's Stasi."

The Stasi were a nasty and creepy bunch of East German secret police: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi.

They ended collecting *so* much information, that they couldn't analyze it all:

The MfS infiltrated almost every aspect of GDR life. In the mid-1980s, a network of civilian informants, Inoffizielle Mitarbeiter (IMs, Unofficial Collaborators), began growing in both German states; by the time East Germany collapsed in 1989, the MfS employed an estimated 91,000 employees and 300,000 informants. About one of every 50 East Germans collaborated with the MfS â" one of the most extensive police infiltrations of a society in history. In 2007 an article in BBC stated that "Some calculations have concluded that in East Germany there was one informer to every seven citizens."

The lesson here is that if you are collecting a lot of data, that doesn't necessarily mean that you are collecting the right (and useful) data.

Re:To help the non-germanophiles . . .

[dave562]

They also didn't have big fat data warehouses and NLP programs to sort through them. By the time the law enforcement community is actively capturing data on you, they have a really good idea of who you are. They are tagging the data correctly and probably doing so with the intention of bringing a court case against you. Even if the case never comes, as might be the case when they are observing "persons of interest", they are still applying the same processes as if they were going to eventually prosecute the subject of the surveillance.

Re:To help the non-germanophiles . . .

[ScrewMaster]

The lesson here is that if you are collecting a lot of data, that doesn't necessarily mean that you are collecting the right (and useful) data.

And that even if you are collecting the most valuable data, if you swamp your facilities for rapidly analyzing said data, you might as well not bother collecting it. Granted, the U.S. Federal Government has far, far more powerful analytical capabilities than the East German government ever had ... but they're also collecting data on a vast scale without, it would seem, much thought as to what they're collecting or why. Furthermore, even mass quantities of relevant data can be subject to errors in interpretation and algorithmic/statistical failures of one kind or another. Patterns can appear in the data that aren't really there ... when law enforcement efforts are based upon such analyses, innocent people get hurt.

Of course, the current thinking seems to be "well, you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs". Personally, I'm not interested in being an egg.

Re:To help the non-germanophiles . . .

[MarkvW]

Verry interesting!

Even with advanced computer technology, data collection as undertaken by the Stasi, would require a big bureaucracy. Acting on any information mined from that data collection would require an even greater bureaucracy. I doubt that any half-aware political society would tolerate that kind of expense--especially when it results in significant annoyance.

On the other hand, the US has been putting up with the obnoxious TSA for a long time. . .. Hopefully that officious bureaucracy will be mellowed out in the new administration.

Re:To help the non-germanophiles . . .

[gorbachev]

"They ended collecting *so* much information, that they couldn't analyze it all:"

Which is precisely the problem in the US right now. Or at least was immediately after 9/11, when the Government outsourced data collection to private companies as documented by No Place to Hide.

Immigration experiences to US - prints, bah.

[Zarhan]

I've been to the US numerous times, all on business trips (I get paid to travel there). Anyway, back in 2003, Dallas, on first trip ever, I was basically waved through...not so bad even coming with an completely empty, unstamped passport.

Unfortunately, ever since then, on multiple trips (Immigration checks at NYC, Chicago, Philadelphia, Boston) the fingerprints have been the least annoying part.

When the US-VISIT scheme was introduced, I went through the DHS website and looked into the privacy and data storage implications. Basically the PDF docs on the site showed such a horrendous architecture that I was pretty confident that my fingerprints will be safe in bowels of a system that probably won't ever really work (and I'm not a US taxpayer so I don't care that much where their money goes).

This was confirmed on my arrival to PHL - I thought that since I've been on multiple visits before that the officer probably has all my info on her screen the moment she wipes my (machine-readeable, not yet biometric) passport.

Guess what? I have scandinavian letters in my name (ääääööö). The officer asked me under what name I'd like to enter the US - should she type in my name with ä => ae or ä => a conversion. I gave the ä => a version since that's what everyone is in reality using... but kinda felt a bit let down of the awesome border security procedures...I'm starting to realize where all the Usama/Osama problems stem from. I thought that they'd at least use, say, the passport number if not the "code" field as primary key...At least if on some trip I land in trouble I can just claim "No, it's just a misspelled name, I'm really that other guy..."

Point I'm getting here: Fingerprints are minor piece of annoyance that add a bit to the travelers problems. For me, the privacy implications were pretty well addressed by DHS docs. The guy that interviews you at the border is the first person who you meet in foreign country - it's his behavior that gives the first impression.

The annoying part has been the attitude of almost all occasions I've basically felt that arrogance of "YOU ARE NOTHING, WHY THE HELL SHOULD I LET YOU IN, you pitiful European". Some vindication came on the last time in:

I was recently in Minneapolis IETF, and went through Chicago again (to change planes to Minneapolis). I don't know whether it was "economy is down, this foreign guy might bring in some serious money" or the fact that it was Obama's home town and everyone was still in great post-election mood and they forgot to be jackasses - but the guy at the desk was really nice. He ofc asked all the same questions as every other time - where I'm going and why - but the attitude made me actually feel welcome to the US. He basically apologized that they have to these days take the whole hand (prints from all fingers) but also said how much better the reader is compared to old one, told me that if I'm planning to spend any time in Chicago he could name a couple of good steakhouses - before stamping my passport and sending me on to the baggage carousel.

Now, timewise it wasn't any faster than any previous visits - same 5 minutes to process me - but I actually felt a bit happy after 16-hour flight (with transfers).

Mind you, I've gotten the "I'm welcome" feeling in EVERY other country I've visited, ever. At all borders they've acquired the same information - why I'm there, when I'm leaving and what I'm planning to do - but I'll be glad to visit Canada, UK, Thailand, Japan, Australia, NZ, and even Russia again - as a tourist, spending my own money.

If I'll get the same experience on my subsequent US business trips as I got on my latest one, I might actually come in again as a tourist, bring friends, and spend some of my own money, too.

Re:Immigration experiences to US - prints, bah.

[TheSpoom]

I find that the ratio of USCBP border agents who are nice versus annoyed to even have to deal with you is about 1:10.

I'm pretty sure making people feel uncomfortable is part of their training under the auspices that it'll make them slip up on something if they're lying.

And don't feel bad... it's not any better for Canadians, or at least, not for me.

Re:Immigration experiences to US - prints, bah.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm an American and find the boarder agents hostile. They sometimes don't trust a USA passport that is in their own database and want additional identification. The bureaucracy isn't against you because you're European, but rather because you're human. It is there to keep people out, and functions best when it keeps everyone out.

Re:Immigration experiences to US - prints, bah.

[lahvak]

I have number of very similar experiences. I live in Michigan, and have several extended family members in New England that I visit quite often. The shortest way to drive from Michigan to New England is through Canada. I have traveled his way number of times in past several years. It's always the same: when entering Canada, you are welcomed by a pleasant officer, who asks the usual questions you get asked on any other border crossing, plus if you have any firearms in the vehicle. Then they let you in the country with a smile. When entering back into the USA, the officer is invariably grumpy, with an attitude like "you are lucky if I let you back in the country, punk!", for both Americans and foreigners.

Re:Immigration experiences to US - prints, bah.

[syzler]

And don't feel bad... it's not any better for Canadians, or at least, not for me.

Or for Americans. I am an American and travel with an American passport. Upon the return of my last trip, amoung other questions I was asked "Why are you returning to the United States? What do you do for a living? Where are you going to sleep tonight?"

Hmmm, Why would an American who lives in American and travels with an American passport be returning to America? I'll give you a few moments to ponder that one sparky. The really odd part was that my answer of "I live here" was not satisfactory to him.

Re:Immigration experiences to US - prints, bah.

[PCM2]

Upon the return of my last trip, amoung other questions I was asked "Why are you returning to the United States? What do you do for a living? Where are you going to sleep tonight?"

Nice try, Limey! Yer high-falutin' Queen's English gives you away!

Re:Immigration experiences to US - prints, bah.

[moosesocks]

If we're going for anecdotal evidence, the UK always gave me trouble with my student visa (which oddly enough aroused far more suspicion than it would have, had I simply stated that I was a tourist)

Re:Immigration experiences to US - prints, bah.

[Anonymous Coward]

I was born in the US and lived here my whole life. I am a citizen. On trips to Canada, I arrive with a US passport and a US driver's license, driving a car with US license plates. I've noticed that the Canadian customs people are polite, friendly, and professional. On the way back, I feel the arrogance of "YOU ARE NOTHING, WHY THE HELL SHOULD I LET YOU IN, you pitiful American".

The Canadian questioning is sort of funny though. The first thing that they ask you is your country of citizenship. As soon as you answer US, they ask you if you have any alcohol, tobacco, firearms, or fireworks in the car.

I always think, "I feel so stereotyped, you insensitive clod!"

Re:Immigration experiences to US - prints, bah.

[atrocious cowpat]

"The annoying part has been the attitude of almost all occasions I've basically felt that arrogance of "YOU ARE NOTHING, WHY THE HELL SHOULD I LET YOU IN, you pitiful European".

Seconded (or thirded, fourth'd, whatever, didn't bother to read the other replys). What really killed me was my last entry, when the DHS officer spoke worse english than I do (a feat quite hard to accomplish). The whole process feels almost designed to put you off visiting the USA. I mean, they had these sort of motivational posters everywhere, telling the DHS-personnell that they were something like "the calling card of America" (paraphrased) since they would be the first contact any visitor has with the USA. The general feeling of annoyance and unpleasentness, however, was so deep and felt so institutionalized, that I've come to believe it's being done on purpose, and the posters are some kind of cynical joke.

#51

[Sinus]

In fact, Canada is the largest state in the union!

Re:#51

[laddiebuck]

By population, it's only second, after California.

Re:Redundant (not this post, but these fingerprint

[Anonymous Coward]

They probably plan to compare the prints used for entry (re-entry) with the prints on file to make sure it's the same person.

Re:Redundant (not this post, but these fingerprint

[f1vlad]

If you entered USA before 9-1-1, fingerprinting weren't taken. If you then haven't left USA since then, they simply don't have your biometrics. If you left and re-entered USA they'd fingerprint you at a point of entry.

You misunderstood whoever57's post

[hwyhobo]

You misunderstood whoever57's post. He wrote, "In order to become a resident alien (green card holder), fingerprints and photos are already taken by the DHS (was INS)". He is correct. Everyone who ever applied for a green card had his fingerprints taken. It had nothing to do with physical crossing the border. It was a part of the application process. The name "FBI" appeared on the fingerprint card. So the question still stands, why can't they digitize them?

Re:You misunderstood whoever57's post

[ScrewMaster]

The name "FBI" appeared on the fingerprint card. So the question still stands, why can't they digitize them?

They probably are. Probably already have been. If they have a set of prints on file from your original resident alien application, and you leave the country and return, they'll compare the old vs. the new. If the prints from your re-entry to the U.S. are different ... well, now there's a potential problem. If in fact you're using someone else's prints, it just means that if you leave you better not come back.

Re:You misunderstood whoever57's post

[hwyhobo]

Precisely. Therefore, this is nothing new with regard to the green card holders or applicants.

Re:You misunderstood whoever57's post

[ScrewMaster]

Precisely. Therefore, this is nothing new with regard to the green card holders or applicants.

I agree (from what little I know about immigration procedures), but the headline just sounded so much more impressive, "DHS to Grab Biometric Data from Green Card Holders." My understanding is that they've been fingerprinting immigrants (and potential immigrants) for a long time now. As a citizen, if they start insisting on taking my prints, or that of my girlfriend (who is naturalized) I'd feel differently. The less I have on file with such people the happier I am: I just don't trust them to administrate such databases wisely (or legally, for that matter.)

Re:You misunderstood whoever57's post

[hwyhobo]

We agree.

Re:Redundant (not this post, but these fingerprint

[Anonymous Coward]

What whoever57 is saying is that they already have the fingerprint and photo of _every_ greencard holder, not because they enter the country, but because they received a greencard. It's part of the process. They take the photo's and fingerprints, digitally, before they create and send the card.

Re:Why not Canadians? REALLY?

[new2_60605]

Just another case of a stupid politician trying to grab headlines... They already do this but for some reason the IT guys at the DHS and the IT guys at the INS cant interface their databases to share info... WAY TOO MANY RETARDS IN CHARGE OF OUR SAFETY! Is this really going to make us safe? REALLY? Out of 1 million immigrants MAYBE one might be considered a threat, and just because they create the database does not mean they will stop the threat before they cause harm. Half the guys involved with Sept 11th were on a 'watch list' what the fuck were they watching them do besides kill life as we know it in the free world. My parents were emigrated to this country to embrace freedom 20 years later people who are coming to th is country to to embrace the ideals of a free society are being told they are being tagged and tracked like livestock because its not as free as we advertised. Just hang a sign on the statue of liberty that says no vacancy... unless you're white or a rich corrupt arab. (All visitors except Canadians? What about Mexicans they share a border with us? Oh thats right they are brown people.) That is as arbitrary as saying any one without blond hair and blue eyes... wait wasn't that hitler's idea? Obviously its a different level of hate but its still hate... and it does not take long on a slippery slope...

because it has worked so well

[speedtux]

They're doing this because they have caught oh-so-many terrorists using that fingerprint and face data so far, right?

keep in mind...

[speedtux]

Japan is doing the same thing, and I suspect other countries are as well. I think European nations just quietly scan your passport, including picture. Relatively speaking, the US isn't all that bad.

Of course, I think the US should lead by being more open and more liberal. I don't see what all this data is really good for.

Re:keep in mind...

[Anonymous Coward]

"I think European nations just quietly scan your passport, including picture. "

Wrong. As an Australian who's worked in the U.S, the Netherlands and France, the U.S. system is far, far worse. The European system is set up such that people can relatively easily enter the country, (I've had my passport stamped without the guy even looking at it), but to actually live there requires an incredible amount of bureaucracy to prove your identity before you can get paid, get an apartment, get insurance, open a bank account etc.

Contrast that with the U.S. system of border control mentality whereby once you're past the gate you're in "God's own country" and there is the illusion of freedom with little government intervention. Rather than the U.S. coming to the realisation as the Europeans have that porous borders are a fact of globalisation and they actively aid wealth creation and distribution and therefore reduce the reasons for alienation, the U.S. will cling to this border protection policy despite increasing cost.

The real cost won't be measured for another 10 years or so. The U.S has historically only progressed because of immigration, and an increasing climate of fear is guaranteed to drive the best and brightest to other shores.

Old Saying

[PenGun]

We have met the terrorists and they are USA.

They already have green card holder's fingerprints

[marcmerlin]

They already took all my fingerprints (all 10) twice before doing the background check and giving me my green card. I wasn't thrilled about it, but eh, I suppose I can't entirely blame them for it.

How is taking the damn things again every time I enter the country going to help anything or anyone?

Does this kind of program even work?

[matchlight]

Every time I read about this kind of thing... more surveillance, finger printing, suspicionless checkpoints, etc, etc...

I think two things:

1. WTF. I'm not a crimial, and the majority of people aren't either and yet we're all subjected to this kind of BS.

2. Does it even work? Why are countries making all of these efforts and the citizens are the last to hear about it.

Will biometrics really make a difference at the borders? The first thing I think of are ways that a person could get around this .. and you know the US border is still pretty open.

By water or land people cross the borders all the time.

This all started with 9/11 by people who were in the country legally... so ya, this just doesn't make any sense to me and makes me more frustrated with our governments.

Re:Does this kind of program even work?

[BeerCat]

Why are countries making all of these efforts and the citizens are the last to hear about it.

Because those selling the "solutions" are really good at their job, and those buying have difficulty saying "no"

Good, and so what ?????

[Toll_Free]

Good.

Nothing can be had with a fingerprint and a picture.

If you don't believe me, stop picking ANYTHING up, don't handle a FUCKING thing gloveless, and don't EVER leave the house.

I guess refugee's better not attempt to get a drivers license, either. Nor public benefits, since both (at least in my state) require a fingerprint and / or a picture.

Fuck, getting paranoid about having your picture taken. Gee, that's A LOT tinfoil hat. Since nearly, if not ALL, of us have a government issued ID card with at least our picture on it.

HOLY MOLY, beware, all immigrants are going to be held to the same standard as..... Get this, all citizens.

--Toll_Free

You already need it.

[guruevi]

This is old news. I'm a resident alien since 3 years. They took all 10 fingerprints an eyescan and a blood sample as well as mugshot pictures. A fingerprint and a picture is on your resident card

Re:Redundant (not this post, but these fingerprint

[tita]

This is true. I just went through the green card process and they actually took finger prints of every finger and both my hands twice in the application process. Once for the initial green card and then another time for the extension after the first 2 years.

Anonymous Coward.

[Anonymous Coward]

As a Canadian, I won't enter the US with this kind of BS, even thou supposedly I'm not "subjected" to this. As far as i know they will take your finger prints anyways for entering the US via airplane. And as far as I'm concerned, fuck any country who wants to treat me as a criminal when I first enter the country.

Seriously, fuck right off!

It pissed me off that Japan started this B.S. and now I will never go to that country ever in my life because of this.

I can't believe the B.S. toll free is spewing... If you are subjected to having your finger prints taken so that you can have things like a drivers license, why in the hell do you put up with it?

Haven't you ever heard of human rights? Or even the right to privacy? Just because you choose to bend over and take it, doesn't mean that visitors to your country should be forced to do the same. Do you honestly believe that there are that many terrorist coming to your country to feel like this is OK?

Re:Anonymous Coward.

[jcr]

fuck any country who wants to treat me as a criminal when I first enter the country.

I agree with your sentiment, but please don't conflate a country and its government.

-jcr

Re:Anonymous Coward.

[Falconhell]

True, it is not like the people of the US voted this government in to office twice is it?

The people are the country right?

I think you are missing the point

[Anonymous Coward]

In USSR, all citizens were supposed to carry their passports at all times, and show them to the police and other authorities whenever they demanded to see it, or face detention. It's like having to have a driver's license while driving, only for just being there.

For example, my friends who chose to wear their hair long learned to never forget their passport at home.

In major cities like Moscow, your passport had to have a stamp permitting you to live in that city, or you had to have papers showing that you are there on business. You could not just come to Moscow and live there, you needed a permission and that stamp.
 

Re:I think you are missing the point

[shutdown -p now]

In USSR, all citizens were supposed to carry their passports at all times, and show them to the police and other authorities whenever they demanded to see it, or face detention.

Not "were", "are". There's no USSR anymore, but the rules haven't changed in Russia in that regard.

Re:I think you are missing the point

[Alex Belits]

In USSR, all citizens were supposed to carry their passports at all times, and show them to the police and other authorities whenever they demanded to see it, or face detention. It's like having to have a driver's license while driving, only for just being there.

No. Who told you that?

For example, my friends who chose to wear their hair long learned to never forget their passport at home.

Your "friends" lived in USSR in early 60's when things like that still bothered cops? Then passports wouldn't help them.

In major cities like Moscow, your passport had to have a stamp permitting you to live in that city, or you had to have papers showing that you are there on business. You could not just come to Moscow and live there, you needed a permission and that stamp.

That's propiska, residence registration, you moron. It means that you have an apartment or house in the city. Government provided apartments for token rent, so when you moved to another city you had to go through official channel exchanging apartments, buying a house or getting employer/school-sponsored one. People didn't have to spend anything significant on rent -- having a place to live was considered a basic right, however having it in, say, center of Moscow, obviously was not.

Re:I think you are missing the point

[megaditto]

Government provided apartments for token rent, so when you moved to another city you had to go through official channel

I think that's exactly the parent's point: Russian citizens had (have?) no Freedom of movement. The fact that you see nothing wrong with that is what's scary.

Re:I think you are missing the point

[Alex Belits]

Americans have "freedom of movement" (actually freedom of not telling the government that they have moved) at the expense of a right to a dwelling, and 30%-50% of their income being eaten by rent or mortgages.

After living in both countries I can assure all of you that "right to a dwelling" alone provides more impact than all your piddly "you have a right if you are rich enough, otherwise you are screwed" rights.

Re:I think you are missing the point

[Shakrai]

After living in both countries I can assure all of you that "right to a dwelling" alone provides more impact than all your piddly "you have a right if you are rich enough, otherwise you are screwed" rights.

So you'd rather live where the Government tells you than have the freedom to decide that for yourself?

Re:I think you are missing the point

[megaditto]

So what percentage of their income do the Russians pay for their government-assigned housing and utilities?

Re:I think you are missing the point

[Romwell]

When I've been to Moscow in 2003, you could catch some real trouble by not carrying a passport if the police stops you for whatever reason (they are fighting terrorists and crime too, you know). Temporary registration is not propiska, you moron. You have to obtain a registration document to stay for more than three days, or you can be legally detained. A bunch of legal firms assit with this process, here's some info about what it is (if you can read Russian, that is, which I doubt). Can't speak for the USSR times, but I would not assume it was nicer back then. In Ukraine, you could be detained for (I don't remember, but at least)up to 24 hours for identity verification if you don't have a document establishing your identity. For the "USSR is omfgtotalitaristic !" crowd: mind you that over there, they actually use the Passport as the main identification document, as opposed to the driver's license in the US. And if you get stopped by a cop in the US and you don't have a driver's license on you, you might be thrown in jail as well (although legally they don't have they right, practically they do excercise this "right"). Also let me remind you that the driver's license contains your current address, which you are required, by law, to maintain when you move.

Re:I think you are missing the point

[daem0n1x]

Oh my god, those evil commie bastards!

I live in a democratic capitalist country in the EU and the law requires me to carry my ID card all the time. And I guess the same happens in most democratic, capitalist countries.

Re:I think you are missing the point

[Loki_666]

No, the government does not tell you where to live. Propiska is simply a stamp registering where you live. Without a propiska you can have some problems with buracracy and administration if you need anything, and theoretically im sure the police can give you some hassle over not having it.
Also, I have never been stopped in the street by the police, on the roads by the menty -not sure how to transliterate this... its a bad word for police- a few times... occasionally for speeding, but they are more interested in driving licence, insurance, maybe a bribe, and occasionally want to discuss English football.

One thing for sure. Since coming to Russia i feel a lot more free than i did living in the UK. Could be just the government are a lot more skilled here at giving the illusion of freedom.... the politicians in the west are pure amateurs when compared to Putin and his gang ;-)

Re:I think you are missing the point

[Loki_666]

This is 2008... Russia is a democratic capitalist country now. There isnt much left in the way of government housing. Utility bills were quite well subsidized but have been creeping upwards over the last few years. Soon be reaching western levels!

Re:I think you are missing the point

[Alex Belits]

In USSR times? About 1% of income. Its main purpose was to make sure there is an ongoing record, actual costs were heavily subsidized (government had all the profits from government-run industry, so it didn't have to rely on taxes that were similarly low/token amounts for individuals).

Re:I think you are missing the point

[Alex Belits]

When I've been to Moscow in 2003, you could catch some real trouble by not carrying a passport if the police stops you for whatever reason (they are fighting terrorists and crime too, you know).

Only if you are arrested, and they can't identify you (but so you would in US).

You have to obtain a registration document to stay for more than three days, or you can be legally detained.

That's for the categories of foreigners who don't have to get a visa. They still have to be registered _somewhere_.

A bunch of legal firms assit with this process, here's some info about what it is (if you can read Russian, that is, which I doubt).

Not only I can read Russian, the text you have linked says the above right in the first sentence!

Re:I think you are missing the point

[Shakrai]

Since coming to Russia i feel a lot more free than i did living in the UK

So how many of it's citizens has the UK poisoned with polonium-210 lately? I'm glad your happy but I'd take living in the UK over Russia any day of the week.

Re:I think you are missing the point

[operagost]

Which brilliant philosopher deduced that it's one's "right" to force others to pay for his housing, again?

Re:I think you are missing the point

[operagost]

What's the reasoning behind carrying your papers with you at all times? What is the penalty for not doing so?

Re:I think you are missing the point

[daem0n1x]

1. Public safety, i guess. Not a big deal, just a small piece of paper or the new one, a small, plastic smart card.
2. Being taken to a police station and wait until they can identify you.

The only situations when I'm asked the ID card by the cops is in car-related situations (pulled over, fines or accidents) or when I'm out for a drink and the bar is raided for some reason (not usual now, since I don't go out much).

Re:I think you are missing the point

[Alex Belits]

Obviously not the one who deduced that judicial system should only serve those who amassed astronomical amount of wealth (likely by robbing and scamming the rest).

Re:I think you are missing the point

[Alex Belits]

Last time I checked, Berezovsky did not represent Russian (or USSR) government while hiding from FSB in UK and making martyrs out of his underperforming employees.

Re:I think you are missing the point

[Loki_666]

I dont know actually, i dont work for the UK secret service.

More waiting in lines?

[boer lee]

I wonder how much this will add to waiting times when clearing passport control at airports. I am also afraid that this may be the end for green card holders to use the US citizen lines after January 18.

If only I was convinced that it actually helps fighting domestic terrorism. It may just give more business to US passport forgers.

Drinking from a fire hose

[cpghost]

The lesson here is that if you are collecting a lot of data, that doesn't necessarily mean that you are collecting the right (and useful) data.

It's like the NSA drinking from a fire hose: they are collecting so much more data than they can analyze in real time! Such data is only useful post factum, to retrace what happened (cf. 9/11). The chance to catch something useful in time and react proactively is extremely slim.

So the question is: is it worth it to undermine informational freedom of citizens (and here non-citizens) and give Government a huge database that could be used to silence opposition by blackmailing or that could leak data to third parties like, say, private investigators, just to facilitate forensic investigations? Some may say yes, others would say no.

Monitoring spam for terrorist activities

[cpghost]

blog traffic comprises only 1.19% of all internet traffic in the UK

Contrary to spam... which BTW is an excellent tool to hide terrorist communication channels and to defeat traffic analysis. I'm wondering that paranoid governments have not yet criminalized spamming on grounds of terrorism, i.e. enact CAN(T)-SPAM v2.0.

Already done

[Rene S. Hollan]

When I applied for (and subsequently received, in 2006) my green card, a photo and fingerprints were taken.

Re:Already done

[frusengladje]

Yeah, when I got my my green card like 15 years ago, they required all 10 fingerprints, as well as a photo. And as someone has already mentioned, your picture and fingerprint are prominently displayed on it.

Personal experience

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a greencard holder married to a local, resident since Aug. '98... I've been out of the country, oh, say 25 times since then, and was fingerprinted on 75% of re-entries... what's the fuss? If you hold a greencard they ALREADY have those fingerprints. Object to that if you can find a good reason.

Re:Personal experience

[TechyImmigrant]

>I'm a greencard holder married to a local, resident since Aug. '98... I've been out of the country, oh, say 25 times since then, and was fingerprinted on 75% of re-entries... what's the fuss? If you hold a greencard they ALREADY have those fingerprints. Object to that if you can find a good reason.

Me too. Similar numbers, came in 1999, American wife, I travel a lot. Except I've been fingerprinted 0 times. They clearly don't like you very much.

Dude...

[lxs]

Reader MirrororriM points out other DHS news that they're thinking about monitoring blogs for information on terrorists.

Dude, I totally saw Bin Laden at the local supermarket yesterday.

What is new

[Iluvatar]

I see a lot of comments wondering about this. To clarify, RTFA: "...provide fingerprints upon re-entry."

Translation: each time you enter the country, instead of waiting on the 2-minute line and just wave your document(s), you'll wait on the 30-to-60-minute line and have your prints and photo taken. This is not about availability of the data (that is not new), it's about extra formal procedures at the borders.

Furthermore, the arguments about document forgery mentioned in the linked article also apply to US passports. After all, they are also issued by a US authority, like green cards. So, clearly that is the next logical step, except it may be a bit tougher to pass (simple: US citizens vote, non-citizens don't). But the new rules for permanent resident aliens should be a good move to prepare the public.

As to how useful all this data collection is: as someone currently stuck waiting for a visa because the new USCIS database system is not functioning properly, without a timeframe for fixing it, I have some doubts. At least I was formally warned about the presence of bugs in the system and potential indefinite delays, but I chose to be (too) optimistic -- so I cannot really blame USCIS for having to reschedule my trip.

Re:Redundant (not this post, but these fingerprint

[LabRat]

I would imagine to verify that the person entering the country on a green card is the same person who applied for (and was granted) the green card is the motivation. The prints *are* digitized...and that's the point to compare the digitized ones on file with the ones you present at the point of entry. However, since it should be fairly easy to verify one's identity at the Point of Entry via the picture that (should) pop up on the CBP officer's screen when the green card is swiped...I'm not sure I understand the benefit of this new initiative fully, either. I would imagine that it's easier to fake a set of finger prints (via latex glue-ons) than it is to fake your face to another human under fairly intense scrutiny in person...but what do I know (besides the honorary immigration law degree bestowed upon anyone who has successfully navigated the system to LPR status LOL)? In the end...it might not actually help security but I suppose it can't hurt to have another layer of verification.

And to those crying about privacy yadda yadda...this system is for entry into the country. Nothing about being a permanent resident says anything about being able to waltz through a point of entry without inspection and/or scrutiny. Don't want to be fingerprinted (again..as parent post points out)..don't cross the international borders ;) Let me know when this program is rolled out to cross state borders and/or get on a domestic flight..then I'll join in on the chorus of outcry.

Re:Redundant (not this post, but these fingerprint

[whoever57]

Once for the initial green card and then another time for the extension after the first 2 years.

"Extension"? What is it about Permanent in "Permanent Resident Alien" that the USCIS (INS) doesn't understand?

Hmm..

[roland_mai]

It's quite strange that prisons are filled with mostly citizens! I think this is part of their stupid initiatives that yield no results.

Except Canadians?

[billybobmac]

I was travelling with a Canadian passport. I arrived at San Francisco, with a subsequent connecting flight to Toronto. The agent asked me the usual questions, I showed him my ticket etc... He then asked me to look at the camera and place my fingers on the scanner. This was in 2005, and had I had never seen this before and he said that all foreigners travelling in the US had to do this. Why was it that even though I was a Canadian on a short visit (transiting), was forced to get finger printed even before this?

Re:Redundant (not this post, but these fingerprint

[justinlee37]

If they don't check your fingerprints when you come into the country to make sure they match the fingerprints your green card says you have, then there's no point in knowing their fingerprints in the first place as impersonating someone else would become trivial.

Re:Redundant (not this post, but these fingerprint

[Ian Alexander]

There are conditional green cards which expire after two years. They're for certain circumstances such as when you get your card through marriage to a citizen and you've been married for fewer than two years (guess they don't want people getting hitched just to earn residency status). http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=fe17e6b0eb13d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCRD&vgnextchannel=4f719c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD

It's really random

[Sycraft-fu]

Part of the problem is that there's little to no accountability in the DHS so assholes get to stay. Another part of the problem is it doesn't pay all that well so they don't get the best and brightest, as it were. So you get a real mixed bag. I've had people who were extremely polite, I've had assholes that were looking for a way to keep me out (I'm a US citizen so they can't).

On the Canadian side of the border (where I usually travel) I've found they are usually politer, but not always and generally not much more competent. One time I was there I had a real nice guy that was clearing me, but the guy in the next lane over was being a complete ass to two girls, who were citizens. Another time I had a girl who asked me a ridiculous number of questions trying to be through because the dual citizenship thing confused her (I have two passports and no stamps).

The US border I think is likely to take a while to get any better. DHS is a total mess and even if Obama's crew wants to clean it up, it'll take time. PLus there's only so good it'll ever get. When you pays low wages, you get low quality workers often.

It's security theatre

[Sycraft-fu]

Unfortunately this kind of shit happens all the time. Hell we do it at work. Not collect fingerprints and such, but implement useless, onerous security procedures. It comes from this idea of We Must Do Something!!!111 that happens when people get panicked. The result is almost never well thought through and thus works poorly.

In our case it deals with personal information like SSN and such. Problem: Computers have personal information on them. Hackers might get this and we might get in trouble.

The solution? An extremely inefficient and time consuming scanning procedure, an encryption requirement but no standard on how, and a whole bunch of paranoia. We've spent many many man hours Doing Something(tm) without really accomplishing anything useful other than having some CYA documents signed. In the end, I imagine we'll get a minuscule increase in security with a massive increase in headache.

Same shit here. Countries realize that unsecured borders are a problem. The world has become a small place, it is a problem if a criminal sneaks from one country to another. However in their effort to deal with it, they are doing stupid shit rather than useful shit.

sadly ....

[taniwha]

it's par for the course, and isn't new - I've been travelling to the US for 30 years now, even lived there with a green card for a while - surly border people who don't know how to be polite are just the way the US does it - I always give them a smile, and say "good morning", let them ask whatever, have a standard quick joke available about my job, even though I've just got off of that 12 hour trans-pacific flight - I've never been searched, never been hassled (but ALWAYS ALWAYS make sure they know you have left the country, unlike other countries the US doesn't do that part of the bookkeeping very well, for US Visit they depend on your airline doing the paper work - there's no emmigration forms or checkpoints in the sense that other ciuntries do it) Now if they were smart they'd do what every other country does - lull the bad guys into a false sense of security by being nice to them - then pounce

Re:Redundant (not this post, but these fingerprint

[PCM2]

This issue has bounced back and forth in the courts a few times. I was issued a Green Card in 1978. It was a permanent card -- as in, when I turned 18 in theory I would still be carrying the same card with a picture of me as a child on it. Cards issued even earlier than mine inexplicably had wavy lines printed right over the photograph, like a canceled postage stamp.

Then one day, when I was in high school, my family all got letters saying that our cards were no longer permanent, and that not only would we need to go get new cards ASAP, but we would now need to report to the INS to renew the cards every few years (at our expense, of course -- and it wasn't cheap). Part of getting the new card also meant we needed to be fingerprinted, and I believe the fingerprint was incorporated into the new card.

Several years went by before I dealt with the INS again, but it seemed to me that a pattern of steadily eroding rights of immigrants was not advantageous for me, so I began the process of becoming a U.S. citizen. At that point I was told that citizenship applications were actually being processed faster than Green Card applications, because of the backlog under the new Green Card laws. Presumably there were lots of people whose Green Cards had expired, but who had not yet been given an appointment by the INS, and therefore they had a hard time getting work.

I became a citizen, but after that I heard the original decision had been reversed and that permanent resident alien status was now considered permanent again. I think you might still need to keep the photo up to date on the card, but the process is not as odious as it once was (and doesn't require as much in fees). Though I could be wrong. As a U.S. citizen it is no longer my concern -- until they pass some law that distinguishes between naturalized and God-given citizenship, in which case they'll be able to start taking my rights away all over again.

As a side note, I enjoyed becoming a U.S. citizen so much that I've since become a UK citizen, too. I hear tell they know how to do it over there, these days -- they'll take away your rights no matter what your immigration status is! ;-)

Green Card holders already comply...

[vaporland]

My wife is a green card holder, and DHS took retinal scans and digital fingerprints when she was processed for her work permit, prior to our final green card interview. The amusing thing is, all of this work is outsourced to Northrup Grumman.

Everyone at the processing center was an NG employee, and I must admit, they were courteous, quick and efficient. Nothing like when we went to apply for her Social Security Card.

The funny thing about the green card processing center is that when you leave, they ask you to fill out a comment card "and let us know us how well we are doing our job". Since they had just taken her fingerprints, and same prints were all over the comment card, I advised my wife to comment positively, so she did...

Hopefully we won't see the inside of Room 101 anytime soon...

hmm...

[subrato]

Of course we all know people who want to do something illegal in any country would make sure that enter through legal means... Also only illegal immigrants are really responsible for all attacks ... All citizens are just patriots ...

Why trust Canadians?

[Gray]

It is ironic to me that the US insists on fingerprinting green card holding permanent residents and UK citizens who went to Iraq; yet my Canadian fingers, who've never sworn any kind of allegiance to the US, or fought in the desert, get in no sweat. What is with that?

Re:Why trust Canadians?

[ScrewMaster]

yet my Canadian fingers, who've never sworn any kind of allegiance to the US, or fought in the desert, get in no sweat.

Yeah, well, if twenty million Canadians ever migrate illegally to the U.S., that might change. Funny though, when I last went to Canada on business (couple years ago) getting in to Canada took about 45 seconds ("Good evening, sir. Business or pleasure? Very good. Enjoy your stay.") Coming back was a bit more complicated even then, and a lot more time-consuming. Heck, I was flying back home from LAX a while ago, basic domestic flight, and I was in a looong line waiting for the security checkpoint (the line actually ran up the stairs a couple of floors) when this dude in a TSA jacket comes along asking everyone to "have their papers ready." He got a number of double-takes (mostly from older people.)

Re:Why trust Canadians?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, well, if twenty million Canadians ever migrate illegally to the U.S.

I would suspect the reverse is significantly more probable.

Re:Redundant (not this post, but these fingerprint

[Anonymous Coward]

In order to become a resident alien (green cardholder), fingerprints and photos are already taken by the DHS (was INS). So how is this going to help? Can't they digitize the existing fingerprints?

They already are digitized. 12+ years ago I got my "green^Wgreen^white" card after getting my picture and fingerprints taken in a backwards 3rd world country in a nonsophisticated manner on special paper with black ink. In my youth, I thought it would end in a folder somewhere, lost to United States technology once all the papers had been filed.

I was surprised this year. I thought I'd be inking my hands a second time to renew the card... a machine with a glass pad showed modern-looking digital line-art against a white background. In 8-inch height I saw the old print and a changing scan of my current finger, and NOT in the grany 72dpi non-grayscale Black/white standard that the government seemed to be exclusively using for things. Then, and up to about 5 years ago, I got chances to see my digitized public highschool transcript, scans of U.S. government documents from back in the mid-nineties and early pixelated digicam pictures that showed Gulf war stuff that journalists could not afford analog transmissions of. Very low quality stuff.

The immigration staff have you trace each finger over and over when the screen points out discrepancies in red, even labeling the lines by medical terms. The resolution must be around 300dpi. I don't know if the prints were scanned years ago at that granularity (doubtful!) or if they forced their embassies to pull up old records and rescan them. They must have just stored them here in the states for "later analysis" until new tech became available... I can just imagine someone getting paid 7 dollars an hour to feed thousands of these into special scanners, all without my knowledge. Then, the data is shipped over to my locally appointed center a few days before I get there

Inkless as the process is, it hurts to think I'll have to be scanned every time I leave the country on leisure trips.

Until the govt. starts fingerprinting ALL Americans, new and OLD alike, in tipical security NAZI / paranoid-network-admin kinda way, they leave blindspots to all those not scanned in: nationalized citizens/professional criminals/sleeper second-generation terrorists. ...Security like that would come at the expense of our privacy. We can't own land in the states and property can be taken away by courts, robbers and divorcees. With all the tracking I feel like I own my body less and less.

A mind is the only thing left to keep to the grave. It must be cherished. Giving it away by sharing experiences on blogs may make yourself leave a mark in people's hearts, but it's a crummy way of losing to everyone the only truly owned belonging (private memories)

It doesn't matter

[ztransform]

Truth is, with the UK and the US and other countries demanding biometric information from non-citizens the moment you step outside your borders you will be on a database somewhere.

Let's say you return and commit a crime in your home country.. all the police have to do is make an international request for biometric information on you, and some other country will respond and say "it's THIS individual with THIS passport!".

So each country that pretends to cater to their citizens by NOT storing biometric information is only "protecting" the liberties of the poor and stupid who will never travel.

Re:Redundant (not this post, but these fingerprint

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, I had mine taken multiple times during the process. They have my pictures in their preferred angle for facial recognition. And they look at my past history before giving me the card. Why waste my time at the border.

You forget

[Anonymous Coward]

>Japan is doing the same thing

At the "request" of the US. Your country's brilliant idea (assuming you're an American).

redudnancy

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a greencard holder.

When I first applied, almost 4 years ago now, I had to go in for biometrics where digital photographs and fingerprints were taken.

The irony is, I now have to renew my greencard, and they want me to do the biometrics AGAIN.

Did my fingerprints change in the last 4 years? Or is their system just so messed up that they can't effectively link fingerprints with a person? Or are they just trying to make sure I'm still the same guy?

Mind you, I am the one who has to pay a biometric fee every time, so one kind of has to wonder if it's not just a way to get more funding to maintain their system...

Re:Redundant (not this post, but these fingerprint

[sjdude]

So how is this going to help?

Since when does helping have anything to do with the DHS does or with any of the bogeyman "terrorist" propaganda or spying on its own citizens that the US Government has engaged in for the last 8 years?

No Real-ID for me

[Plugh]

I am proud to have been one of the many people who worked to ensure New Hampshire will never comply with Real-ID, or any national ID card that may come in the future.

It was a lot of work, but the demonstrations were fun :)

Re:Redundant (not this post, but these fingerprint

[Anonymous Coward]

until they pass some law that distinguishes between naturalized and God-given citizenship, in which case they'll be able to start taking my rights away all over again.

Well, you could try to run for President...

Common Sense

[Anonymous Coward]

In a failing economy unless you are seen working and useful, your livelihood is at stake.

So create work for yourself at the cost of others.

Find the least path of resistance to create such work.

This applies to everyone who is employed.

Greencards have a fingerprint image and a photo

[nedlohs]

on them already.

So it's not like they are getting anything new - maybe an updated photo but given the number of security cameras in most places they check your visa that also seems like nothing new.

USA

[SlashOtter]

All I have to say is, WTF? Enjoy your subjugated freedoms. Y'think Obama will stop this one? LOL - the USA is crazy.