Slashdot Mirror
Amazon.com Reporting This Holiday Season Their "Best Ever"
In a refreshing break from all the doom and gloom, Amazon.com is calling this holiday season their best ever. Reporting a 44 percent rise in the number of items sold, they are refusing to provide actual dollar amounts, so it is still a very subjective measurement. "Amazon customers ordered more than 6.3 million items on Dec. 15, compared with roughly 5.4 million on its peak day last year, the company said. It shipped more than 5.6 million products on its best day, a 44 percent rise over 2007, when it shipped about 3.9 million on its busiest day. The company did not provide dollar figures and wouldn't say whether the average value of orders had changed, and the jumps it reported Friday are in line with increases Amazon has seen since it started releasing the figures in 2002."
to shop...
People are going to look for better deals, and when some item can be found for 20 to 50% less online, often with free shipping, of course they are going to turn to the big internet sites.
Why Amazon? Is it just name recognition? They're probably the largest online retailer. Are they "the online walmart" like the article says?
See Slate's Amazon.con: How the online retail giant hoodwinks the press for details on why this story is idiotic:
Some, but not all, of these accounts went on to concede that Amazon would not provide revenue data for the entire shopping season, or even for its "peak day." Nor would Amazon confirm or deny that one or both of these revenue figures exceeded those for 2007. Without this information, we can't possibly know whether Amazon had a good year in comparison either to other retailers or to its own sales during the previous Christmas shopping season.
The same reasoning or lack thereof applies to the Kindle (which I don't like for its DRM and other problems), since Amazon won't release sales numbers for it.
So, did Amazon have their best ever holiday season? Maybe: but we're unlikely to know enough about the metrics used to make this claim to know.
Just because they sold more items doesn't mean they made as much of a profit as they would have during a non-holiday season.
People are buying more tangible items at cut rate prices instead of handing out gift cards - this helps retailers anywhere move more items.
The kick-to-the-balls is when the profit enters the equation - if the profit margin on those 6.3 million items was razor thin (or there were more "loss leaders" than usual) then this report is crap.
every time a company reports weak growth or a drop in revenue they always say something like this to make it seem nice.
I remember one time i had symantec stock and they reported 4% earnings growth and no future guidance. 4% growth is as good as negative growth. of course the press release started by saying that Symantec reports record revenue and earnings per share.
same thing with amazon. the dollar amount probably stinks so some poor analyst spent a weekend mining the data to try to find a way to put lipstick on a pig
Pointless to respond to an AC, but Amazon has been continuously profitable since 2003.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begs_the_question Just sayin'
I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
Is anyone else totally disillusioned with consumers for things like this? The worldwide economy is crumbling because people didn't know how much was too much. And now, after people know that, they *keep* *buying*. Big screen TVs, _thousands_ in gift cards, other expensive purchases, when they should be starting to save up, conserve. When will people learn?
Website coming soon.
Aren't you guys tired of doing this on here? The fight is over, the meaning has changed. Get on with your lives.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
The big-box retailers taking over all the specialty shops across the US are actually reducing the diversity of goods available locally (the ACE hardware actually has more depth than Lowes in many areas for example). So aside from the obvious lower prices and "dropped at your door" convenience, there just aren't any local options for lots of us living in generica if "best Buy" doesn't carry your desired trinket.
Sheldon
Taking sales from smaller vendors?
Essentially if they won't say dollar amounts that means the assumption is correct that profit is down per shipment.
The media has been rooting for a recession since Clinton left office.
NPR especially, going so far as to tell me how this is basically the great depression. Yet, everywhere I go I see people driving SUV's to the various outlets to buy crap they don't need.
Amazon represents the second-best reason for a free market economy: efficiency. They can bring you goods and services cheaper than their competitors, you win, they win, competitor looses.
Oh...and I drink YOUR milkshake.
THL phish sticks
Not sure who the 'you guys' are here, but if you mean 'people who have a passive understanding of the English lexicon', then I guess that would make sense. And to answer the question, no we never tire of pointing this out. I get a kickback from Logical Fallacy, Inc. every time I correct someone ;0)
I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
Who gave you the authority to define this?
Or in other words: Since when is you opinion relevant to us?
Or in other other words: No it hasn't. Get over it, or learn basic logic.
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
Another order that I did place from a manufacturer website did come OK and on time, but it was a nail-biting experience. Although the website offered second-day delivery as an option (actually it was one of those outsourced shopping cart sites), the confirmation e-mail that came directly from the manufacturer said "5-7 business days". I replied to that e-mail asking what was up, but never got a response.
I worry about the day when Amazon gets too big and starts becoming evil (e.g. censorship), but for now, I am a happy and loyal Amazon customer.
Doesn't Amazon deal mostly in credit cards ( id est consumer credit ) ?
Doesn't that mean we'll all be fucked when the bills start to roll in and people default on them?
Since you don't cite any useful data and just offer your word, I'm going to have to ask: Jeff, is that you?
No sig for you!!
You must be new, here.
And YES, I realize your user ID is lower than mine.
Your ad here.
http://auction1.taobao.com/auction/item_detail-0db2-b0bf5f8eb13a92c64cf0d9deac0f835a.jhtml http://auction1.taobao.com/auction/item_detail-0db2-7a6aa46ac129f79681330e58f33c9be9.jhtml http://auction1.taobao.com/auction/item_detail-0db2-8c4b5c783b12b10d2c98ab5aedb1fd5a.jhtml
Neither you nor I gets to define language - it's use does. The "wrong" form of "begs the question" has entered the mainstream, no matter what you say about it. More significantly, I don't think anyone here was confused by it's use in this context - so it wasn't even an error worthy of correction in the first place.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
That begs the question... is it REALLY over?
Your ad here.
'people who have a passive understanding of the English lexicon'
Let me improve your understanding somewhat: language changes over time. ;p
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
I love Amazon's sell-your-own-stuff service as much as I do the site itself. I finally decided to get rid of the college books I'm never going to touch again, and Amazon makes the entire process insanely simple. In the past week I've made a few hundred bucks and it took almost no effort.
Also, the Amazon music store is fantastic, there's no way I'm going back to iTunes. Real MP3s, 256Kbps, and they sell long songs individually instead of making you download the whole album.
You're all idiots. No one cares what you think about colloquialisms or formal logic.
i remember one year our gross was up 1000's of %, due to the fact that the year before was pitiful. with the wall street of deceit stock markup FraUDsters, almost any lie/misinformation warrants a slew of follow-up lies, combined with years of follow-up misinformation.
"usage does" is still way better style than "it's use".
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
http://www.M2Mz.com
Release Date for Videos, Music, Books, Games
Amazon's fulfilment business is up, but that doesn't mean Amazon itself is selling more. More and more, Amazon is doing order processing for others. The fact that they're focusing on number of items shipped rather than revenue probably means revenue didn't go up.
Let me help you there, chucky:
2007: 476 million
2006: 190 million
2005: 359 million
2004: 588 million
2003: 35 million
2002: -149 million
Really, is this shocking information? That Amazon is profitable?
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Lol... I'll concede that.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
I don't think anyone was confused by mainstream media calling the year 2000 the 'birth of the new millennium', but that didn't we should quietly accept that error. After 8 years of a Dubya and his verbal hackery, I think I am just a bit hypersensitive to verbal missteps.
I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
Begs for the question. Perhaps instead of just pointing at the problem; you could provide a solution.
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
If 4% growth in a mature company isn't good enough, then you need to recalibrate your expectations. The big gains in growth and stock price are just after a start-up and IPO. No business can grow at high rates forever, eventually the market for their product/service is saturated.
Language may change over time, but it seems these days that the new meaning is already represented by an existing expression and that the old meaning doesn't have a new or alternate expression. It's this loss of expression that drives me to correct people's writing and speaking.
The "new meaning" of "Begging the question" is already available as "Raising the question".
When you use words intelligently you'll find that your point is often much more clearly understood. Changing language in the means mentioned primarily distracts and confuses the intention of the speaker.
-- i am jack's amusing sig file
Re-read your own post. Something about glass houses comes to mind :)
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
A 44% increase in items sold is nice, if the kind of items are similar to those sold last year. I wonder, however, what part of the raise comes from individual mp3 songs sold through their (very good) online music store. They don't say, so it makes me wonder what the motivation for their silence is. Hmmm...
So, did Amazon have their best ever holiday season? Maybe: but we're unlikely to know enough about the metrics used to make this claim to know. well said
What he meant to say was:
Find a different term for "a statement that implies an unanswered question", since "begging the question" is the term educated people use to describe a logical fallacy involving an improper assumption. You can call it anything you want, just don't call it something that already has a meaning. If you do, your misunderstanding belies your attempt at sophistication.
ACK! I am infected.....
I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
Right on???
Of course, a net profit of 476 million on sales of $14 billion is very thin. Only 3.4%. 10-15% is considered good net profit.
My blog
Can you buy a gun from Amazon? They seem to sell everything else nowadays.
The comment was fully compliant with the literal meaning of the phrase.
Unless "the question" is some fat guy in a suit with a cat on his lap that one pleads for mercy before, I think you may want to revisit your use of the word "literal."
Besides the obvious economy being in the crapper, why would someone spend $36 for a Bluray at Best Buy when you can get the same Bluray from Amazon for $22. Pretty much anything you buy at Best Buy amazon has for far less. A few months back, I looked at 500GB drives at Best Buy. They wanted like $250 for it, when I purchased it at Newegg for $150. Amazon had the same price, however I will buy from someone else before I go to Amazon. I really can't stand their CEO so I try to avoid them. But, when push comes to shove, I will buy from them.
Maybe this economy will get some brick and mortar stores to re-think their pricing strategy.
until (succeed) try { again(); }
Comment removed based on user account deletion
But at the bare minimum, there's a solid conclusion from this that "more crap being bought online than last year".
Planet Zebeth - Metroid with a twist
But that's not how language works. "Educated people" can speak any way they like, but if the rabble poaches a cool-sounding phrase from you, why do you get all up in a huff? Or is that part of the whole elitist thing? Being huffy?
Anyway, in most cases context can be used to discern meaning. Surely if you big language aristocrats can handle homophones and words with multiple meanings, you can tell what someone means through context?
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
I wonder what portion of these items were copies of The Tales of Beedle the Bard, a new supplement to the Harry Potter series. It costs under $7, so it would bring down the average cost per item.
Just a note: Providing numbers without a link does not qualify as a citation. For example, I could disagree with your numbers and say:
2007: -100 million
2006: -89 million
2005: -14 million
2004: -35 million
2003: -12 million
2002: -25 million
When you use words intelligently you'll find that your point is often much more clearly understood.
Sorry, but no person who claims to be intelligent could possibly be confused by the original post by emeraldemon. Did anyone really think that he was referring to Amazon's use of circular logic?
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
what? Walmart operates on a 3.4-3.6% net profit margin
are you saying walmart is not doing well?
http://www.hoovers.com/wal-mart/--ID__11600,period__A--/free-co-fin-income.xhtml
10-15% is considered good net profit.
Depends on the industry. Walmart in '07 made 12.7 billion on 378.8 billion of revenue. That's almost exactly the same margin.
Amazon is very up-front with investors that they use cash-flow per share as their main metric rather than earnings per share.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Amazon is a publicly traded company, chucky. Anyone who can't find these numbers is either stupid or lazy. Here.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Damn easy, great selection, good delivery options, cheap, no crowds... brilliant.
You neglected one extraordinary feature that no one else has mentioned in any of these comments-- no sales tax. When it comes to high-dollar electronic purchases, I always go to Amazon or Newegg. Brick and mortars can not compete when they have to pile on a sales tax. For instance, I just bought a Nikon D90 camera with a couple of lenses. Sales tax in Austin, TX. boosted the price more than a hundred dollars over what Amazon was charging.
As the economy continues to crumble, more people will probably recognize this cost-saving opportunity and Amazon will be able to brag amount recession-resistant sales figures. Not that this article indicates they have actually made more money than in previous years.
Seth
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
Glass houses...
hmmm...
Growing pot in Antarctica in the greenhouse?
Yes! that _must_ be it!
-nB
whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
10-15% is an average gross margin for non-boutique retail. After overhead, making any money is good, and 3% isn't terrible when your sales number begins with a b.
Back when there were smaller stores, the margin was typically 40%. But those days are over, and why I chuckle every time I hear someone complain about the service at a Best Buy or whatever. America traded in knowledgeable electronics dealers for cheap, plastic, slave-labor constructed garbage that are a tenth of the price and last about as long. That is, if you don't break the connectors that are glued to the pcb instead of screwed to plates, as they used to be. Now those same stores employing kids are charging three hundred dollars to fix the crappy electronics they sold them in the first place.
Ah well. There is no free lunch. But there are a lot of people who aren't smart with their money. What were we talking about again?
Sorry, but no person who claims to be intelligent could possibly be confused by the original post by emeraldemon.
I found it mildly confusing for a split second, long enough to realize that the circularity I was expecting wasn't present.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
With that sort of attitude I would recommend shopping elsewhere until they treat their staff properly.
Aren't you guys tired of doing this on here? The fight is over, the meaning has changed. Get on with your lives.
The phrase "begs the question" in the context that it is all-too-frequently used simply makes no sense. How do you beg a question, exactly? I know how to raise one, but I have no idea how to beg one. Absolutely nothing is gained by using the word "beg" to mean "raise" -- something it never does in any other context.
This is why many of us continue to point out the actual meaning of that phrase. It's stupid to use it the way people do. It makes no sense. Just because a lot of people regularly use those words to mean something that they don't actually mean, doesn't mean everyone else should just accept it as meaning that. Sure, we understand what they're saying when they use the phrase, just like we understand what is meant when someone writes "alot", or "loose" instead of "lose", or "would of", or "prolly". But that doesn't make those things correct.
"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." -- Albert Einstein
Huh, and I was under the impression mental nimbleness and logical deduction were few of the things that made up intelligence.
When you use words intelligently you'll find that your point is often much more clearly understood. Changing language in the means mentioned primarily distracts and confuses the intention of the speaker.
But when 90% of the population is misinterpreting what you're saying as something else, then you are but an old man, pissing into the wind. Language is a means of communication, not a symbol of the elite. If that's what people think it means, that's what it means. "Begging the question" in its colloquial form would be a helpful phrase to have around, and those who have bothered to learn its obsolete, true meaning will appreciate your deftness when you use it correctly, but you're just a pile of odd dinosaurs that haven't accepted their own extinction. I spent years of my life trying to correct terms and phrases like "I could[n't] care less" or "Always in the last place you [would] look", and I'll continue to do so, but I don't expect the world to change just because I'm obviously right in the face of bland stupidity. Acceptance of the inevitable can bring peace, though one should never give up hope.
I am the richest astronaut ever to win the superbowl.
Funny because for me this Christmas season has showed how bad the economy really is. The malls and shops were relatively slow over the Christmas season. You could barely tell it was Christmas this year. In past years its been a zoo, but this year its was just like a normal weekend. The downtown mall near my house didn't decorate or have a Santa this year, and the only store I encountered with a line was EB. The high end stores seemed the hardest hit. I was in the sony store on the weekend before Christmas and was the only person in the store.
You know, I could care less, irregardless of how you may feel....
Do you have ESP?
Not to mention that some "changes to the language" are a step back when it comes to clear communication. "I could care less", I'm looking at you. Sometimes, ignorance is not an excuse to do something different.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
Nobody likes an etymology geek, Scully.
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
The problem is that we've moved beyond that stage and now even the big established print media can be spotted using the new meaning. Give up, it's over. There is absolutely nothing that you can do to effectively change this new idiom.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Changing language in the means mentioned primarily distracts and confuses the intention of the speaker.
Unless that is what the speaker wanted to achieve in the first place or that his audience had changed the meaning first.
"I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
-Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
language changes over time
So what? The way you use the phrase is wrong, and it's wrong right now.
Is it correct to call a cat a dog because by the year 2704 it might have become the generic word for a carnivorous quadruped?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Language is a means of expressing ideas. Using it is an art and those who are more skilled at that art can express themselves better than those who are less skilled. And it doesn't matter how many people misuse a language construct, word or phrase, those who use it correctly will always be more skilled than those who don't. So in one sense, the fight is over. Using "begging the question" incorrectly does convey the meaning that the user intended. But it also conveys a lesser understanding of the English language that is likely to manifest itself in other ways.
Personally, when I see people mispronouncing words and misusing phrases like the one in question, I use them as subtle queues that the person using them is less intelligent and adjust my behavior accordingly. It may be that their misuse is the only area in which they lack intelligence and the impact of their misuse is almost entirely mitigated. But that's very infrequent and the misuse is much more commonly a good indicator of their lack of aptitude in other areas. And correct usage of commonly-misused constructs is an even better indicator of the opposite. When I hear someone talk about someone's forte and pronounce the word correctly (the 'e' is silent, not accented), it's almost always an indicator that the person is well-read and deserving of my attention to whatever they say. And I can generally observe their speech patterns for areas in which I may be making mistakes in my own speech.
I suppose it all depends on how you view language. If it's just a tool that you use to accomplish the tasks in your everyday life, then don't worry about all the complexities. But if you see virtue in mastering it and feel that it can help you more fully express the person you truly are, then learning the subtleties of languages is vital.
"Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!"
Is it correct to call a cat a dog because by the year 2704 it might have become the generic word for a carnivorous quadruped?
My argument is not that in the FUTURE the phrase will be correct. My argument is that the "incorrect" version of the phrase is ALREADY the main usage. The NY Times used the phrase 17 times last year, and only 2 of those were used in something approaching the "correct" way... and one of those was a quote. When the editors at the Times can't even stop the incorrect version of the phrase in their own publication, it's over. You've lost.
And, yes, if it is the year 2704 and you find yourself speaking 2000-era English you would probably be checked into a loony bin.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
and when I mail items overseas or receive them from overseas, I never mark them as "gift" if they were actually purchases
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
I think you need to tone down the superiority a bit. Education != intelligence, though I'll concede that the two are often strongly correlated. Bear in mind that anyone born in the last 20 years probably will not be exposed very often to the original meaning of the phrase "beg the question", and you should not dismiss all young people as unintelligent just because they grew up in a different time.
By the way, "forte" is not used in the French meaning - it is closer to "le fort" in French, which would be pronounced "for". So you can say "for-tay" (the Italian), and be wrong. Or you can say "fort", and be wrong. Or you can say "for" and be correct, but by doing so failed at communicating in English. I'll continue to say "for-tay", because then everyone will know what I mean, even if the haughty don't think as highly of me.
So, if you were speaking with me you would judge that I am not well-read. While I may or not be by your standards, your judgment would be incorrect on this particular point because I would be making a deliberate choice and not a grammar error.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
That begs the question, can a popular misconception about an expression change the meaning of the expression itself...
sorry, just had to say it.
I use them as subtle queues
How does that line up for you?
Just sayin'
I think you mean "I am just saying that you are using that phrase incorrectly."
p.s. This is why we got beat up in high-school, why we don't have girlfriends, and why we're never invited to social functions.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
Interestingly, your link is to the NY Times effectively apologizing for misusing that phrase, and reaffirming their desire not to do it again in the future. Maybe I'll "give up" when they do. ;)
"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." -- Albert Einstein
I ordered a new XBox and various other stuff for my kids 9 days ago, and had it shipped 2-day using Amazon prime. Still haven't received it yet. What is especially annoying is I live closeby both Amazon and Microsoft headquarters. :-( Good news is my kids missed snow since moving here and we got plenty of that instead.
If you're going to go heavy on Amazon, prime is a good idea - then you get 2 day shipping free (well, paid for) on all your stuff. I never signed up, but that's largely because 2/3rds of what I get is third party stuff.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
I shopped almost exclusively on Amazon this Xmas because I couldn't get out of my house due to the weather. I'd imagine many others did as well and this helped Amazon hit their new record sales.
Begging the question is a technical term and, as such, isn't really subject to the whims of the drooling masses. It's just like Gigabyte - sure, it's an abuse of SI prefixes, but so what? The people who coined it know what it means. Likewise, any sort of specialized language is going to laugh at the idea that an outsider has any sway in the definition.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
A pox on thee and thy house! If the Queen's english hath served thine forefathers soundly, surely it serveth thee to this present day!
Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
Actually, that guy is one of their "internal police". They make his internal memos available in blog form because, well, they are interesting.
I know that the editorial staff at the Times clearly hasn't given up - and I think it reasonable to hold their writers to the old standard if only to avoid the wrath of white people. I just don't know why people go around hunting forums for minor errors, as if they are the forum editor or something.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
And with this latest bit of chicanery, it seems they've changed the metric to "items ordered per share."
Amazon is a publicly traded company, chucky. Anyone who can't find these numbers is either stupid or lazy. Here.
Why the fuck do you keep calling people "chucky"?
Yeah, I hear they sink ships.
Actually, it hasn't changed. The phrase just has an additional meaning when used in a transitive context which has no possibility of confusion with its meaning used in an intransitive context, since it is always clear whether the context is transitive or intransitive (and, additionally, the new transitive definition has a neat relationship to the old intransitive definition: "to beg the question" [using the intransitive sense] is exactly "to beg the question at issue" [using the transitive sense].)
(And, frankly, the new definition makes the old one make some sense in English; the original source of the intransitive use is a poor translation from Greek through Latin to English, the intransitive use is more natural use of English words, and so provides a more natural English framework for the old, intransitive use.)
So what? Languages have multiple ways of expressing the same ideas all the time, and since the new use of "beg the question" only is used in a transitive context (a particular question must be the direct object of the expression), and the old use of "beg the question" can only be used in an intransitive context (it doesn't take an object) there is no ambiguity between the two uses. The new use doesn't interfere with the old use at all.
There is no loss of expression, so please stop.
When citing a source as an authority on the English language, try citing an English language newspaper. NY Times indeed. It's not The Times. Bloody colonials.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I just don't know why people go around hunting forums for minor errors, as if they are the forum editor or something.
I don't think people necessarily go around looking for it (I certainly don't), but rather it just pops out at them and annoys them.
Personally, in the case of this particular phrase, I found it to be a stupid, nonsensical, and annoying phrase before I even discovered that there is a correct usage. As a result, I cringe whenever I encounter it, not just because it's being used incorrectly, but because it just makes no sense.
I just prefer it when people use words that actually mean what the speaker is trying to say, and the word "beg" simply does not mean what the speaker is trying to make it mean in that context. Is it too much to ask that people say what they mean?
"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." -- Albert Einstein
That's an odd defense of the old, "correct" version, which uses "beg" and "question" in ways even farther from their normal English senses, as what it is really about is about assuming the point in discussion, not "begging" anything that resembles a "question".
The new, transitive sense of "beg the question" uses the words in their normal meanings, eliding a few. That is, it means "beg [an answer to] the question". This has, as noted above, a much closer relation to the use of the words in english than their use in the old, intransitive, "correct" sense to refer to the petitio principii fallacy.
Actually, quite a lot is gained. For one thing, it provides a framework that is quite sensible in English and readily understood, and in which the old, "correct" definition actually makes sense; the intransitive "beg the question" becomes a specialized case of the new, transitive form, where one "begs [the answer to] the question [underlying the debate]."
The so-called "actual" meaning of the phrase can only be used in an intransitive sense. There is no confusion with the new and more common use transitive use of the phrase, and the two actually fit together nicely. You seem to be engaging in reflexively pedantry that has nothing to do with communication, and everything to do with wishing youngsters would, figuratively, stay off your lawn.
"those words" is not a proper antecedent for the pronoun "it". If you are going to obsess about people using words correctly, you should work harder on the basics yourself.
Its not "just like that" at all. We're not talking about nonstandard spelling, or choosing wrong but phonetically-similar individual words. We're talking about using an idiomatic phrase with a clear meaning that emerges very naturally from the meanings of the individual words, which can be used only in contexts grammatically distinct from those in which an older meaning of the same phrase can be used, and which has a clean, obvious relationship to the older meaning (likely because the newer meaning is a modern back-formation from and rationalization of the older use, which does not naturally fit the normal meanings of the words except as viewed through the new meaning.)
THANK YOU SIR please take my firstborn manchild.
Down with Gibibyte. i don't need to sound like I'm stuttering when I'm not.
... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about.
Speaking of Prime, one thing my family learned is that a single Prime subscription can be extended to multiple people (scroll to "How do I share Amazon Prime with members of my household"), and they don't have to live in the same location. That surprised me--I guess Amazon has a loose definition of "household". $80 for Prime for one person didn't seem worthwhile, but split between 4 people (living in 3 different places!) that all use Amazon occasionally, it made a lot more sense.
Why don't you make like a tree...
Personally, when I see people mispronouncing words and misusing phrases like the one in question, I use them as subtle queues that the person using them is less intelligent and adjust my behavior accordingly.
So how should the above sentence cue me to adjust my behavior with respect to your intelligence?
Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
To me, fighting over someone using a phrase in a transitive sense as "wrong" because the phrase means something different when used in an intransitive sense which is impossible to confuse with a transitive use revealse a lesser understanding of the English language that is likely to manifest itself in other ways.
The use of "subtle queues" in this sentence is precious.
Misuse may be a sign of simply a different regional background and dialect, or of ignorance, assuming that any misuse must be a large or small sign of "lack of intelligence" is, at best, a rather hasty and poorly thought-out conclusion.
Both are, per most dictionaries, correct in English, and the monosyllabic form you hold out as the one true pronunciation has the potential for ambiguity with the more common English noun "fort", while the disyllabic form is unambiguous in English, which is often desirable.
Since one use is transitive and must always specify the question being "begged" (the newer one), and one is intransitive and cannot (because its not really about "questions", despite the words in the phrase), there is no room for confusion between the two uses, and no reason for anyone who understands the older, more established, intransitive form to complain about the use of the newer transitive form.
Its like the verb "hurt", which can mean "experience pain" when used intransitively ("I hurt") or "cause [someone or something] pain" when used transitively ("I hurt you"). The two meanings coexist, and there is no confusion between them.
I would argue that if you complain about usages that don't conflict, both of which are well-established even if one is older, the same is true.
Lots of technical terms make their way into language. "Parameters", for instance. No one is trying to tell people who study logic to stop using the phrase "beg the question", but it is funny to watch the logic folks trying to stop the unwashed masses from doing the same. Especially when a logical analysis of the situation would lead them to the conclusion that their actions are futile.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Chucky is a moron.
Occasionally people act like morons, and then I confuse them with Chucky.
In particular, Chucky does things like make a post on Slashdot refuting someone's facts that can be checked with the first hit on Google. Yeah, Chucky's pretty dense.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
The "correct" usage is in a different grammatical context (intransitive vs. transitive) and is also stupid, nonsensical, and annoying, being made acceptable only by the extreme age of the stupid, nonsensical, and annoying bad translation that brought it into usage.
There's no need to avoid the Latin name of the fallacy (we use ad hominem or reductio ad absurdam without problem, why not petitio principii?), and if an English name were needed, "Assuming the premise" would be more accurate and clear, rather than a word-by-word translation that ignores the meaning of the words in context.
This is no less true of the "correct" meaning. Neither "beg" nor, especially, "question" usually means what is used to mean in that phrase. Of course, that's why either use is an idiom -- a phrase in which the phrase has a meaning as a whole which is not simply the meaning of the words that make it up.
It is if you are defending the older use of "beg the question" against the newer use.
Bloody colonials.
Be nice to us, or we'll start our own language standard. We'll start switching "s" around with "z" and pretty soon you'll have to start calling our version "American English".
By the way, the same thing seems to be happening on your side of the pond.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
How does that line up for you?
Be nice to him... he's special.
(Hey, I'm just using his own standards...) :)
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
The phrase just has an additional meaning
You... you mean... we can all just get along???
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Is it too much to ask that people say what they mean?
Yup. Idioms and cliche seem to be part of human nature. You might as well ask people to stop following home and clothing fashions.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
We had an abnormal amount of snow in the two weeks before Christmas, and I've read that this winter has been generally harsher across the nation. Perhaps more people decided not to brave the crowds.
Another factor might be the general belt-tightening this season due to the economic downturn. For a given product, it's highly probable that Amazon has it cheaper than the local Best Buy, or has a refurbished or used unit for less. (But mind the shipping costs!)
And finally, perhaps we've reached some sort of critial mass, where a significant number of shoppers have switched permanently to online shopping (as opposed to the fad it was during boom.dot.bust).
This statistic makes me hopeful, because it shows that perhaps people haven't stopped spending, they're just doing it more wisely.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Well then fuck you. That translates into "Have a nice day" in the New English.
No need to be snarky. I intended to sound silly, based upon the summary saying Amazon didn't provide dollar figures - neither did the OP. Sadly my funny bone wasn't awake at that time this morning; I couldn't make it work and gave up, yet still clicked Submit.
Either way, when one is presenting a point of view and they're suggesting it's based on fact, I don't see the fail in asking them to provide sources. If they're trying to make a point it's up to them to establish a sound basis for it.
No sig for you!!
Intelligently meaning adhering to alisteme? What if discrete morphology and "misusing" the word leads to an ultimately more clear language? Ancient languages had hundreds of ways to express verbs, the meanings change for a reason. I'm all for syntax, but at some point we have to "refactor" the language before it collapses under it's own weight from adding new features to the lexicon.
Home Depot and Lowes sell a lot of shit like building materials, lumber, kitchen cabinets, and appliances that True Value doesn't carry. We need both types of stores.
"Be grateful for what you have. You may never know when you may lose it."
http://evilspeculator.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/2008-12-29_amzn.png They can tell whatever they want. But if you look at the picture as a trader, you'll understand that is about to change.
Sounds like you're the moron if you have problems remembering whether someone is a stranger on the internet or your imaginary scapegoat (upon which you project your own shortcomings).
Lowes: EPIC FAIL*
*debatable
You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
those numbers are pro forma. They're profitable, but not as much as implied.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
I don't remember the year, but back when The Screen Savers was still on TV, I remember them making a big deal out of the first time Amazon turned a profit for a quarter. Given that they were canceled in 2005, it had to have happened before then.
"I'm not sure I like the fugnutish tone you used in your post!" -RogL (608926)-
Well, then have a nice day to you, too.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Oh, sorry - I didn't catch the humor and thought you were being a jackass.
Nevertheless, his "facts" are not hard to verify, are widely known, and the gentlemanly thing to do would be to click on the first link in Google to see if he's right before flaming him.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Listen Chucky, I made that all up. I'll type real slow so you can understand: I... called... you.. Chucky... because... you... are... an... idiot.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Those are GAAP numbers from the SEC filings, not pro forma numbers AFAIK.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Great selection, great customer service, super prices. For everything else, there is Amazon.
"it's a recession when your neighbor looses his job, and a depression when you loose yours".
Indeed, Amazon's MP3 store is probably the first truly viable alternative to the iTunes Music Store in terms of buying digital music. Amazon kindly provides for free a downloader program that allows you to put a playlist of the downloaded music right onto the playlists in iTunes or Windows Media Player 11, which means it's really easy to copy the music right to your portable music player.
With a presidential candidate who can't remember how many households he owns, it's not that surprising ;)
This is the sig that says NI (again)
I doubt, there exists another online retailer with the choice of items as wide-ranging in both domain and quality/price as Amazon's. Comparing the company with McDonald's, which offer fewer items than most other restaurants and at lower quality (though for lower price) is silly.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Hmm, I can't see anyone pointing out the obvious thing here:
Amazon has sold a lot because their stuff happens to be really cheap right now, which it is because amazon is not trying to make a profit. They're just trying to get rid of the stuff they have already bought. I bet they've take a huge loss, but will argue that thats better than being stuck with a lot of stuff you can't sell.
You meant either "cues" or "clues" I think, but never mind, I got the broad sense of what you were saying :-)
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Presumably they count the cash flowing in from their investors as part of that? I don't see how that's a better metric than earnings.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I have written to the editor. He assures me that the offending "journalist" will never work for that publication again, not even in the pseudo-tabloid section you linked to.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
"It" (if it refers to anything at all) refers to the situation, not the subject or object previous sentence.
Would "I left the stable door open and all the horses escaped. By the time I got home they were long gone - I just had to accept them" be correct? I think not.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
He didn't say they were. He mentioned what he tends to think of people who express themselves incorrectly or inelegantly. it's not even intentional. As Oscar Wilde said, every time an Englishman speaks he makes another Englishman despise him.
I'll assume we're still talking about begging the question here.
Given that:
1) Some people may not be sure whether you intended the right meaning or the wrong one.
2) Those who know the right meaning are likely to think you don't know what you're talking about, even if you do, and flame you for it
Wouldn't the best solution be to find an alternative phrase, or better yet, two?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Actually, I wasn't so much defending the older use of the phrase as I was attacking the newer use. I personally don't use the phrase at all, either to describe the logical fallacy or to substitute "beg" for "raise".
Basically, my point is this: if you insist on using an idiom, at least use it correctly. Otherwise, just use the words that actually mean what you're trying to say.
"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." -- Albert Einstein
The journalist can always work over here. If you have a British accent, people automatically assume that you are sophisticated... surely a duke or duchess of some sort.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
While there are advantages and disadvantages to each, it's not black-and-white. In my opinion, it is too simplistic to look to one metric as a "main" metric, but at least Amazon is upfront about it. They make an argument in their 2004 annual report, right at the front.
I have to admit, it's not a bad argument, and they did manage to survive the dot-bomb... mainly it seems that they would like to take the emphasis off of growth and look more at the long-term health and sustainability of the company.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
That's an odd defense of the old, "correct" version, which uses "beg" and "question" in ways even farther from their normal English senses...
I wasn't actually defending the old use, I was merely attacking the new use. "Beg the question" meaning "raise the question" just sounds stupid, and "beg the question" meaning "assume the premise" is the result of a poor translation, so I don't like to use either one.
The new, transitive sense of "beg the question" uses the words in their normal meanings, eliding a few.
No, I think in most cases, somebody simply heard a phrase, assumed it to mean something it doesn't, and now it has caught on. It's a simple bastardization of the English language born from ignorance, not a clever new idiom.
"those words" is not a proper antecedent for the pronoun "it". If you are going to obsess about people using words correctly, you should work harder on the basics yourself.
Let me slide on that little slip, and I'll ignore your "reflexively pedantry" in the preceding block, or the "Its not" in the next one. ;)
We're talking about using an idiomatic phrase with a clear meaning that emerges very naturally from the meanings of the individual words...
Again, I disagree, as I really don't think anyone consciously chose to create an idiomatic phrase, they simply misused a phrase they had heard but didn't understand, and now it has spread.
"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." -- Albert Einstein
Sell at a loss but make up for it in volume. Is it 1997 again?
Only three things are certain; death, taxes, and apocryphal quotations - Ben Franklin.
I'll assume we're still talking about begging the question here.
Sorry, I was unclear. I was referring to "forte", which I choose to pronounce "for-tay" despite knowing the background of the word. I was trying to point out that there are a lot of smart, educated people who perhaps don't have a sophisticated background and choose to speak in a more, um, egalitarian vernacular. I once worked with these two guys from Northeast Philly who each had a PhD in Physics, and who could turn on the smart-talk whenever they needed to, but in everyday conversation spoke like they were straight out of their old neighborhood.
I agree with you on "beg the question" and avoid it's use altogether. The way I speak, I'd be more likely to say "So I have to ask, ..." rather than "Well, that begs the question, ..." And if discussing logic, I'd probably just say that one's reasoning is circular, since I'm not into using jargon unless necessary.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Amazon is fudging the numbers, I know several people who ordered things as early as August and were offered additional "free" items. While the items they paid for came in relatively quickly, the "free" items were delayed and eventually came in just before Christmas. I suspect Amazon rigged the shipping to make non-Christmas purchases and items appear under their Christmas season figures.
The other point is that things like units sold, or revenue or whatever, don't matter as far as I am concerned. The only thing that matters is PROFIT. Amazon selected a meaningless statistic from numerous meaningless stats and is pushing it out there. If Amazons profits were up, you better believe they would be pedaling that number to investors/creditors, since I have heard nothing on profit, I suspect it is "not good" or unknown.
Respect the Constitution
who invented "beg the question" anyway? honestly. it's stupid.
we have this ability to assemble and understand complex sentences out of simple words. we don't have to have a dictionary entry for every phrase. if you want to strongarm an ordinary looking phrase with a new/special meaning, good luck, sometime it works, sometime it doesn't. when it doesn't, the invention sucks, the innate language wins.
If you are a frequent buyer at Amazon you often get deals not available for everybody else.
I have a wish list with several items that I save for later and everyday one of those items gets a "special discount" and it's displayed in the front page( usually 5$ off). Funny thing is that if I logout or use another account the price goes back to normal.
I also got free credit for their "on demand" movie store and magazine subscriptions.
If you stop entering their site for a few days you usually get an email with reminding you of future "gold box" deals in the department you showed interest.
The problem with this is that online shopping may become addictive, specially with their 1-click option enabled.
Here in California, after the low level retards in government tried to illegally pass a bevy of new taxes (including a sales tax) in the middle of a major recession via weasel words in the bill, I know lots of people who shopped online out of state for that reason.
So many people just want to keep as much money out of this shithead government's hands now. This current California Legislature is going to go down in history as the dumbest pack of fuckheads ever to hold office.
I am one of the millions who regularly used Amazon, to the point where I relied on them- long story short, I did not receive a batch of goodies that were counted on as Xmas gifts. Customer service was borderline. I am disgruntled. I wonder what the future holds for Amazon? How many folks will be addicted to the price and ease of ordering (as I was) versus those who receive a huge disappointment and and begin to look elsewhere (that's me know). But where are the alternatives to Amazon? MS live search with money back, one of the eBay products, Yahoo or Google shopping? What are your choices for shopping?
I don't think the word (with the e, the feminine form) exists as a noun in French, I've only seen it used as an adjective/adverb. And they don't pronounce it for-tay. But you probably knew that.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
That's if they don't mistake you for an Australian.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Yeah, in French it would be spelled "le fort" and be pronounced "for". So saying "fort" is, IMHO, just as wrong as saying "for-tay". The standard usage, wrong or not, seems to have morphed into "for-tay". Anyway, I find that everyone knows what I mean when I say it - though I usually use the word niche.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.