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A Teacher Asking Students To Destroy Notes?
zwei2stein writes "I found this question with far-reaching implications in the off-topic section of a forum I frequent: 'My economics teacher is forcing us to give up all of our work for the semester. Every page of notes and paper must be turned over to her to be destroyed to prevent future students from copying it. My binder was in my backpack, and she went into my backpack to take it. Is that legal?' Besides the issue with private property invasion, which was the trigger of that post, there is much more important question: Can a teacher ask a student not to retain knowledge? How does IP law relate to teaching and sharing knowledge? Whose property are those notes?"
You wrote them? They belong to you.
This is called theft, there is no other word for it. File a police report immediately.
easy solutions:
a) photocopy the notes
b) type them up to begin with
c) leave ITT TECH and go to a real university
Nature journal lied in Britannica vs Wikipedia Ask to retrac
Theft, unlawful search and seizure, destruction of property..... You could go nuts with this. This can't possibly be legal.
Alchemist: Be Thou For the People
1) With the school. 2) With the local police. 3) Contact a major news outlet. 4) Refuse going to that class until settled. 5) Contact local ACLU type outfit. Write down the event now, while it's still fresh.
Is the purpose of a college class to give a student knowledge of a field of study? Or is it to just award a credit towards a degree?
Sound to me that the lecturer thinks it's the latter, which is a problem. Those notes are a valuable resource to any student who wants to retain that knowledge, whether for future classes, a job after college, or just for the pure love of knowledge for its own sake. The student has paid for those notes in time, effort, and money. Asking him to give them up is short-sighted and stupid. Taking them from his backpack is theft.
*Do* file a police report, *do* talk to a lawyer.
*Also* scan all the docs into .pdf and put them all online.
Letting criminals like your prof get away with their crimes (theft is a crime, and illegal) only encourages their deviant behavior (normal people don't steal, your prof is a deviant).
You paid your tuition so that you could gain knowledge.
Forcing you to give up your notes is effectively saying that you must retain everything in your head, which is ridiculous.
They're your notes, you paid to be able to take them. She has no right.
And even beyond that, it's unreasonable search and seizure by a civilian (what would that fall under, larceny?) for her to go into your backpack without your permission. File a police report and involve the administration of your school.
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
You don't "copy" class notes, you write class notes. In your own words. There is a big difference. You are the author.
Perhaps he himself didn't pay, but his parents, if they are law abiding citizens, did pay their taxes to fund his education.
Are you serious? You allowed the teacher to go into your backpack, which is your private property, and take something which belonged to you, while doing nothing about it? Not even the cops can go into your backpack like that.
Why are so many people so freakin spineless?
I don't want to sound like an internet warrior here, but dude, if a teacher tried to do that to me, I would prevent them, pushing / punching / kicking them if I had to as a last resort.
(No, this does not make me a 'violent idiot' as someone else stated, it just means I have enough backbone stand up for myself in person with ACTION rather than on the internet with words. ACTION is the only sort of standing up that really matters, when it all comes down to it.)
You do know that you have the right to defend your personal property, right? Man up.
Yes, I know this could lead to repercussions from the university, such as being threatened with expulsion - that's when you get lawyers involved.
There's no way to say how it would pan out, but you have the advantage that, in the eyes of the law, you are in the right and they are in the wrong - provided you don't pull a weapon or beat them to death, anyway. That equates to a lot of potential negative publicity which the university probably doesn't want.
If you make a big enough stink about it, they'll most likely just let it slide eventually - though it will be tough for a while.
You might get kicked out, but Jesus H Christ man, you cannot go through life acting like a minnow and bending over when you know what someone else is doing is wrong.
STAND UP for yourself for god's sake. Let the chips fall where they may. When you get to the end of your life, you aren't going to wish you were nicer to that teacher (instead of punching them square in the solar plexus), but you will probably regret allowing people to trample all over you and never quite getting what you wanted.
This has been a public service announcement.
Hold it. You may actually deal with a sensible school board. Yeah, sounds funny, but such things exist. They may be very interested in settling this quietly, return the notes and do what they love to do: pretend nothing ever happened. And that's basically what the OP wants, if I got him/her right.
Once you blow it up and it gets news coverage, they can't simply return the notes and sweep it under the rug. They'll probably start to make up some big excuse why this is necessary in an attempt to save face, the student gets all sorts of troubles... Realize that schools have a lot of abilities to make oyur life really miserable if you're a student there.
So far, the principal could still be unaware of the problem and be on the side of the student.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Does it actually matter if the story is true or not, as long as it gives a topic for discussion? It is claimed to have actually happened, and it provides a good topic for exploring the community's beliefs about personal rights.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Agreed. Her goal is to prevent cheating. That may be laudable in and of itself, but this is a stupid way to go about it, for all kinds of reasons. It's probably illegal. And ineffective at stopping cheating.
Also, the teacher has put herself into a lousy position. If she gives the student a poor grade at the end of the term, then he can file a grievance claiming that she actively prevented him from earning a higher grade by destroying his notes. That's solid grounds for a complaint. Furthermore, it sounds as if she did this to the entire class. They've all got grounds for that claim.
By destroying the notes, the teacher has also destroyed any trust the students might have had in her, and seriously undermined her own credibility. She's lost any claim to impartiality here. No one can teach effectively under those circumstances, even an otherwise good teacher. It's stupid.
And worse, it's destructive. She's actively preventing her students from learning. As a college teacher myself, I am outraged. This is not acceptable professional conduct.
The student should immediately file a formal complaint with the teacher's department and the dean. I strongly suspect that the teacher will be removed from the class and replaced by someone else, as she is in no position to finish out the term now.
It's too early to file a legal challenge, but the student would be well advised to consult a lawyer immediately to discover what the legal options are in case things go badly.
If i understand correctly , the problem is the some students cheat by copying over the tests and homework.
All the teacher has to do is give different tests and homework for each class. How hard can that be ? My teachers always worked this way.
Having your homework/tests is great way to know your mistakes and learn from them. I don't see why students have to suffer because the teacher is too lazy to do her work.
Slipping shoelaces ?
Well you can't do anything now since you consented to her taking them by letting her in your backpack. Sounds like you just got a lesson in 4th amendment rights. Never let anyone, including authority figures cop teachers, have your personal property ever. Even if you have nothing to hide.
The correct thing to do is to go to an appropriate dean (which one depends on how the school is structured - in the university I attended, it could have been the dean who oversees the professor, or the dean of the college of my major, or the "dean of students") and explain that the professor opened your backpack without your permission and took from you notes which you wrote on paper you paid for, and that this is theft and you want your notes back. If they are reluctant to act, explain to them very politely that you're trying to help them by not making this criminal theft a matter for the police, and won't they please consider doing something about it?
And having printed an unenforceable rule makes it valid? Why is this?
That's pretty disgusting. Not only for the obvious invasion of privacy (reaching into the bag - not for suspected contraband) but mostly because the teacher never changing the curriculum.
This is the epitome of terrible teaching, to me. The teacher could no longer give a fuck about 'freshening things up' and instead will drone on, with *exactly* the same material, year after year. The kids in the class will pick up on that vibe and will never experience the joy that *can* be found in the material.
That is the sackable offense.
.
I had no idea theft was a civil offense. I mean physical theft where you take away some person's property, not the copyright violations that some people call "theft" today.
Thanks to the MAFIAA, people seem to be blurring the lines between philosophical discussion and actual physical violence where someone's property is forcibly taken away.
Hey folks, write this down: TAKING AWAY A BINDER IS THEFT. COPYING A FILE IS NOT THEFT. Is this clear?
This is a matter that could be reasonable resolved without going to for the last resort straight away.
Neither I nor my parents ever signed a contract for me to attend my school. How does fine-print stand up?
How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
Right. Additionally this is a teaching concern. If the teacher is so concerned with cheating that they are willing to go to such great lengths to prevent it then perhaps they would best be counseled by their peers.
This seems to be a case of the teacher being too lazy to mix things up from year to year. Additionally (Especially at a college level) You are paying for that class, and those notes are one of the few means available to re-study the material from. If I got wiff of this ahead of time, my notes would be at home. If necessary - I would negotiate a review of the situation with the teachers boss before agreeing to anything, and that teacher would basically have to take my backpack off me to get at my notes, which I will likely assume to be a form of assault and respond in kind (which means pushing their arm away and leaving (Hey - this isn't my house, I have to retreat before striking back))
No, I am not an English major. My posts are subject to typos and incorrect grammar. Do not expect perfection.
This suggests a bad teacher/professor. If your students can get by simply by copying notes, then you are not teaching the subject properly. Students need to learn to apply the subject, not just repeat memorized notes.
In a properly taught class, all the notes and books in the world available to you during the exam won't save you unless you learned and understand the subject.
--Won't that be grand? Computers and the programs will start thinking and the people will stop. - Dr. Walter Gibbs
Many responses here seem extremely excessive, especially on a site that is usually quick to criticise going heavy-handed with lawyers. Why go with the weapon of last resort and eliminate all the other options provided for the purpose?
Try being reasonable and diplomatic. That won't limit the heavier options later on and can actually benefit them - here in the UK you are generally expected to extinguish reasonable options before going to court (either way it'll certainly look better).
Try simply explaining that you require the notes to maintain the knowledge for use in later life and have no intention of handing it out to others. Carefully explain that the notes are your property, both physically (you bought the paper) and intellectually, making the position clear but leaving the teacher's own mind to envision the potential for legal action. You DID supply the paper, and there isn't any slide handouts in there, right?
If that still doesn't work, advise the teacher that she should not destroy the notes while you explore other options (being careful to be non-threatening). At this point there may be a more friendly teacher you could approach who may be able to mediate and tactfully resolve this without fuss. People change their minds more readily when it is a friend/colleague/peer presenting their perspective, and where there is minimal consequence from being wrong. Why be all confrontational? This goes both ways: it's an opportunity for YOU to discover you are wrong, in a manner with minimal consequences for you...
If that fails, keep elevating it one step at a time. That would probably involve a parent writing to the teacher, the headteacher and next attending a PTA/PTO meeting.
Still not resolved? No doubt there are still more options and then, ultimately, court and/or newspapers. The intermediate steps will only benefit these options, not reduce them.
Organisations and society in general provide numerous means, checks and balances to sustain your rights. It's such a pity when people ignore them and skip to the option of last resort - courts are supposed to be there only for when society and organisations fail to provide fairness and justice.
Can't these people consider proportionality and appropriateness? Is it really necessary to harm a teachers career and potentially the school for the sake of some notes, without even bothering to make some common sense attempts first?
Ya know, that's a good point. This is GOVERNMENT that we are talking about. A teacher can no more copyright her notes, than a Congressman can copyright his speeches in the House, or a president copyright his emails in the White House, or the FCC chairman copyright his documentations/rulings.
It's the People's property. All things in government belong to the people, and is public domain. Some of it might be kept secret for defense purposes, but eventually it gets released. This teacher is a government employee and all things she creates while on the government clock belong to the People, and in the public domain.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall