Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Releases Internet Explorer 8 RC1
mikemuch writes "IE8 has left beta as of noon Pacific time today. The development team now considers the browser platform- and feature-complete, but won't say how long until it goes gold. PCMag.com got an early look and has posted a full review of Internet Explorer 8 RC1. The release candidate differs only slightly from Beta 2, most notably in tweaks to its InPrivate Browsing feature, aka porn mode. That feature has been decoupled with InPrivate Filtering, which blocks third-party content providers from creating profile of your browsing habits. RC1 also improves on performance, especially in startup time, but still trails Firefox and Chrome in JavaScript speed. Protection against the relatively new threat of 'clickjacking,' where a site tries to get you to press buttons underneath a sham frame page, has also been added — the first browser to include such protections. Versions for 32-bit and 64-bit Vista, as well as for 32-bit XP are available, but Windows 7, which will ship with IE8, is stuck with an older beta for now."
They can keep all their little incremental security and interface updates. What use are a few little tweaks in IE8, when Firefox offers me add-ons like adblock plus, noscript, slashdotter, etc.? Besides, I can always open a site with IE Tab if I need to.
Firefox is even nice enough to spell check my form entries for me (it caught me misspelling "incremental" just now).
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
As opposed to what, Firefox?
Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
If you use any version of IE and you are not:
1) Using it out of the box just to download another browser, or
2) A web developer who needs it on a test box
Then GTFO idjit.
Protection against the relatively new threat of 'clickjacking,' where a site tries to get you to press buttons underneath a sham frame page, has also been added â" the first browser to include such protections.
No, not the first. Maybe the first to be shipped with the functionality turned on by default.
It's just that, with FireFox, anything that isn't related to bare simple display of HTML pages, is usually tucked into separate plugins.
But the Noscript plugin has featured click-jacking prevention almost from the next day after click-jacking came in the news.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
I don't really care about their tabs, 'Awesome Address and Search Bars,' privacy or really anything else while they still only score 20 on the Acid3 Web standards test. IE has historically been such a pain in the ass for the entire world because of poor adherence to standards. The article says Microsoft takes standards seriously but the test says otherwise.
Heh. Not in comparison to Firefox, but my copy of Konqueror on KDE leaves both of them in its dust.
But aside from resource demands (and I'll wait until I can try it properly before I make any judgements), IE8 looks quite nice. I'd certainly be willing to try it out if they made a version for non-Windows systems. How about it Microsoft - fancy branching out?
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
Yeah the obligatory complaint about those 30% or so that keep using 6 (according to my stats). Maybe with 8 out 7 will become the 6.
As opposed to any other story, which doesn't pose any value to a decent percentage of the crowd? Nothing appeals to everybody, so why make snarky comments about a known fact of life?
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
I still use Opera + IE6. Why IE6? Stability. These damn browsers never give up the memory they've taken, although chrome does a better job because it actually runs each tab in a seperate process. With IE6 I open a window, browse youtube, close site, and the memory is returned. I use Opera with javascript turned off, a low overhead browser that will save all my pages if a crash occurs.
The only way to open IE at the house is in the "run" tab, the wife and kid don't know where that is.
The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
I was about to install it when I noticed: Internet Explorer 8 Beta 2 and Visual Studio .NET (version 7.0 from 2002) are currently incompatible. If you install Internet Explorer 8 Beta 2, Visual Studio .NET will crash. No workaround is currently available.
Yeah, I kind of need .NET 1.1 to work for some parts of my job.
Yes, when Internet Explorer 8 is released, Microsoft will finally have implemented decent support for CSS 2, a specification published over a decade ago. I hope everybody here on Slashdot will join me in welcoming Microsoft to 1998. Truly, they deserve all the credit they are going to get for being so ahead of the curve. Keep innovating, Microsoft! Don't let those slow-coaches at the W3C hold you back!
Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
Fair enough, but for real bonus points, you need to go for a score of 5, Troll/Flamebait. ;)
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
Not necessarily, give it a try. You may be surprised.
o_O
Of course we won't be using it to browse the web, but for those of developing for the web it's handy to keep up with this stuff.
Before I RTFA, I was going to make a snide remark about IE's refusal to follow web standards.
Skimming through it, I was surprised to find the article praise IE 8's 'improved compatability' -
"In my standards-compatibility testing, IE8 RC1 passed the Acid2 Browser Test (which evaluates CSS support) with flying colors. But on the Acid3 Web standards test, a program that focuses on DOM (document object model) support and JavaScript, IE8 RC1 did the same as Beta 2, getting a score of 20 out of 100, still much better than IE7, which only got a score of 12. But compared with Firefox 3's 71, Chrome's 79, and Opera's 100, IE still has a long way to go. "
So! My snide remark still stands.
What a joke..yay.. conditional stylesheets...
Can I loathe them for shipping Windows 7 with a beta version of their own browser?
Help fight poverty: Punch a poor person.
No? What's that? Microsoft closed out the bugs as "works as intended?" Fail.
In case it's not clear, I have a firey hatred for IE8. Not so much the product itself, but what it represents. What it represents is a flagpole in the ground stating, "We're going to stand in the way of progress for our own selfish reasons".
While I can understand that Microsoft feels that the market is slipping from their grasp, I cannot support their methods of attempting to compete. Which is to say that they are using their power to prevent competition rather than building a superior product. As Joel pointed out in his excellent article on the Windows API being lost:
If you truly want to understand what is wrong with this browser, take some time and go through these examples:
http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/wrongWithIE/
Those only scratch the surface of what is really wrong with IE and Microsoft's stance on improving their web browser. For further reference, RC1 of IE8 gets a 20/100 on ACID3. This compares poorly to FireFox3's 56-59/100, Webkit nightly's 100/100, and Opera dev version's 100/100(!).
Developers need to band together and stop hacking our sites for IE. Users who wish to use IE should either be directed toward download links for one of the many alternatives, or forced to deal with a degraded view of the site with a polite comment to upgrade. And by degraded, I mean "it works, but looks awful". If that right there doesn't sell users on getting an alternative browser, I don't know what will.
(Yes, I am aware that many businesses can't take the hit. But we have to start somewhere. And that somewhere can easily be everything from your personal site to your new venture that's betting on early adopters of advanced web technology. IE's market share is already plummeting. If we can get enough momentum, we can near-eliminate this unsightly browser from the web. Remember Netscape 4's inability to keep up? This is the exact same situation all over again, except this time the solution is not a total mono-culture.)
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
I wonder if the put the option to make favorites available when offline back in IE? It's not in IE 7 anymore. It was actually kinda useful for traversing and downloading webpages to store offline for use while traveling. Though I must say HTTrack does a fine job of it.
Does it support uninstall feature? Aaaah, I knew it. They still have some catching up to do.
It's a huge improvement, they score 50% higher than IE 7.
That is 21/100
Pathetic
IE shipping with a feature before FF has it ( private browsing mode).
Well that's something you don't see every day.
I have left slashdot and am now on Soylent News. FUCK YOU DICE.
I gave IE 8 a test drive on Vista 2.0b. I was not impressed. Plugins? What are they? But the biggest pain in the ass as far as I am concerned is that the IE crapware STILL does not support the incredibly simple function of resumption of interrupted downloads. This is typuical Macro$lut bullshit.
Mod him flamebait, but he does have a point. Bashing MS is lame. It takes no wit.
Copyright 2010. All rights reserved. This comment may not be copied in any way including, but not limited to caching.
There may be a number of good technical and use-oriented reasons not to bother with IE8. I don't know the details on it just yet. But it could be twice as good as the next browser and I still wouldn't use it. Not after what Microsoft did to us all with earlier versions. The standards compliance problems have been infuriating for developers. How much human effort has been wasted trying to cope with this? And the vulnerabilities have made popular computing a diseased seething mass. How many geeks have had to spend evenings or whole weekends taking care friends and family members' systems?
All of that and Microsoft let IE rot for how many years? Half a freakin' decade in the midst of humanity's glorious ascension into a networked era? It took competition forcefully wedging its way into IE's monopolistic stranglehold before Microsoft got off their asses to do anything.
Well, it's too late. Fuck off.
I'm no battered wife. I know that MS isn't "really a good husband, he just..." whatever. I'd rather other people not drag me into another round of this same neglected-until-it-matters-to-Microsoft bullshit. The fewer people who use IE, the better.
Firefox includes all sorts of "security" stuff turned on by default, some of it both pointless and really annoying, like the click-4-times annoyance when you want to visit any https site that doesn't have its SSL certificate signed by one of the worthless central authorities. Some of it is also useful, like popup blocking. "Clickjacking" prevention seems like it'd go in the same category of stuff, if Firefox were interested.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
This has been a very active couple of days for MS stories. Lots of big things happening between layoffs and beta releases.
Let's look at some facts though.
Windows marketshare is 90%.
IE's marketshare is 70%
Slashdot users run somwhere between 47% and 70% MS Windows based OS.(http://slashdot.org/pollBooth.pl?qid=1516&aid=-1, http://slashdot.org/pollBooth.pl?qid=848&aid=-1)
In the last four days Slashdot has had 9 MS stories ( source: http://slashdot.org/search.pl?tid=109)
In the last four days Slashdot has has 97 stories posted ( source: http://slashdot.org/search.pl )
What percentage of stories about MS have run in the past four days?
9/97 = 0.092 * 100 = 9.2%
Facts hardly look as bad as you make them out to be.
-Malakai
A Dragon Lives in my Garage
Not until they ship Windows 7. Then, if they do that, have at it.
I agree that IE lagging on CSS support is a major PITA for web developers, but I don't think Netscape's CSS2 support was that great in 1998 either. Of course, I didn't know what CSS was in 1998, but I don't think it was exactly in wide use at the time, at least relative to the awesome <marquee> and <blink> tags.
All your base are belong to Wii.
IE8 has left beta as of noon Pacific time today.
Doesn't this sound like some wartime political report or something? "Leaving beta" as if it's an actual physical act of moving somewhere else?
"President Truman boarded the naval vessel at 2PM local time, and departed on his return voyage to the US from the island archipelago."
... and then they built the supercollider.
Did everyone else get the Google Chrome page-ad when loading this page?
I'm not sure why you got modded troll here, but that's how I set things up for a lab back in the college days. Any trace of the 'Blue E' was hidden and replaced with the orange fox, its label changed from 'Mozilla Firefox' to 'Internet'. Management became a lot easier from that point forward.
We're all hypocrites. We all have hidden parts, it's the contrast between them that make us more a hypocrite than others
* When you are composing your +5 Insightful masterpiece of a post that utterly eviscerates a company for an alleged GPL copyright violation you have to do so while listening to your multi-terrabyte pirated(aka copyright violation) music collection.
I notice one of the features listed is the ability to prevent third parties from tracking your web browsing habits, which would presumably mean "anyone other than the owner". Since Microsoft believe in retaining ownership of the software and licensing it to you, do they consider themselves a third party? Or is this just a convenient little "block the competition, while leaving a loophole for us"?
Pfft. I had to take it off of all the computers here. It broke some many websites it was a total joke.
Just because something is a standard doesn't mean it is a good standard and I wonder about CSS being a good standard.
I congratulate the committee that created it on actually getting something out the door, that is an accomplishment for any committee. However, I don't think it is too much to ask that the new standard actually work better then what was already there. Tables were clunky and misused, but for formatting a web page, they still work better and are easier to understand. It's frustrating to spend days trying to get CSS to render something simple to only tear it all out and redo it in tables in a few minutes.
Was there really a huge demand for floating elements back in 1998?
XP professional x64 edition is supported using the same version as server 2003 x64.
There don't seem to be any downloads for any version of windows on itanium though.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
A 20? My mobile client gets three times that!
nonconformity at work
Ah, the marquee tag....
There was a beautiful time when this set of gamer forums I went accepted HTML in posts. They fixed that after one thread exploded in tags ending tables and just completely ruining the entire rest of the page. And, yes, there was immense abuse of marquee and blinking text and smilies.
If his gay lover is anything like IE, I'd certainly hope so. No one should be exposed to that kind of depravity.
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
...The latest IE also solves a problem that's a leading cause of browser slowdown...
Yea right, you have gotta be kidding me, Microsoft must think we are idiots.... I did not stop reading the article at that point (but should have) and just laughed, poor, poor fools that keep buying the marketing BS.
My suggestion to all, do NOT adopt any new product offerings from them for at least a year after they are released. You will probably be glad you waited. Not only will you get them cheaper if they are legitimate improvements, you will avoid unnecessary hassles and problems by letting others work them out for you. You have to admit their track record of late has been dismal at best.
The newer operating systems (since mid XP, Vista and now Windows 7) slowly bloat up and slow down, no matter what you do. There are many reasons, most that we the end user can NO LONGER control â" even a little and/or prevent from happening, thanks to auto updates, audit, compliance and validity checks, etc....
I was not surprised to hear a caller on Leo Laporte, The Tech Guy s radio show just this last weekend mention that he attempted the normal method of re formatting his PC's hard disk and re installing all his software to get his computer running faster again like it use too and it simply would not work. Leo as usual asked him a few intelligent questions about how he went about it and what exactly he did and to each and every question the callers responses were intelligent and right on the money. It was obvious he knew what he was doing, had done it before, but this was the first time it simply did NOT work. Leos response was classic and not unexpected for any and all that have listened to him for years. Basically that is should not be doing that. Too funny and too sad for all that use Microsoft Operating System and the Internet Explorer browser. The slow down, loss of privacy, general bloat that causes slower and slower internet surfing over time due to Flash tracking BS, cookie tracking BS, spyware, Viral injections, etc...; can NO longer be fixed via a re format and re install of all software.
I knew this would happen sooner or later, with the CWA, auto detect, auto update BS that we have to deal with to use their software, however I did not expect it to happen this soon. I sincerely thought this type of Microsoft forced bloat would not happen until some time next year after the Windows 7 early adopters were forced to install Vista via updates, compliance checks and having no other supportable option and/or upgrade path.
Yet another violation of trust in my opinion.
I should have stopped reading there, but I read the article to the end and read this under Security and Privacy around page 3 or 4 of the article I believe. I admit that I did smirk and laugh at combining IE with Security and Privacy....
Well, call Microsoft a copycat once again, but IE8 does a little more than just duplicate this capability...
Another funny one there, is it just me or does Microsoft continue to implement more and more functionality found in Linux, FOSS and Open Source software. Too rich. Further in that page it stated....
Microsoft reps claim that their engineers agonized over making sure that Shift-Enter took you to the desired site.
I have been using Shift Enter to launch URLs from graphics, URLs copied into OpenOffice.org Writer and other Open Source software under Linux for years now. It is one of the many reasons I say Linux is my share point, because you can copy/paste from almost anything to anything with Linux application software.
IE8 can block the script while still giving you access to the site. In my testing, Firefox failed to block the sample XSS site provided by Microsoft,
Is your Internet Throttled? Install DD-Wrt, OpenWRT or Tomato to learn the truth! Google: 1Gbps/1Gbps: 5 Communities
You'd have had a point if, in 1998, there was any other browser, released or in beta, that had full CSS2 support. But there wasn't. In fact, the one that was closest to supporting it at that time was... IE.
Ubuntu 8.04 shipped with Firefox 3.0 beta.
Internet Explorer looks ready to give Firefox 3 a real run for its money.
The CSS specification includes support for display: table; display: table-row; and display: table-cell;
which are quite useful when you need table-like layout.
Shame IE never supported them. Until *drumroll* IE8 - shame they aren't doing so well on other fronts.
But, fortunately, you can work around this. Yes, it is a bit more work, but that is not the fault of CSS.
Additionally, working around it just takes a little getting used to.
Those singing the praises of table layout in some cases just never got the hang of a more fluid layout. Hopefully you're not in that camp.
-- perl -e'print pack"H*","6e656d6f406d38792e6f7267"'
On Mine (all the same machine)
IE8 = 12
FF = 71
Safari = 75
Chrome = 79
Opera = 100
However, IE8 only got 7, till it popped up with "this site wants to run mxl 3.0(or something)" and I clicked ok, but im ok with that, as I use Opera 99.99% of the time anyways...
More Specifically
IE8 8.0.6001.18371
FF 3.05
Safari 3.2 (525.26.13)
Chrome 0.4.154.29
Opera 10A B1229
Can I loathe them for shipping Windows 7 with a beta version of their own browser?
How do you know that they will?
myselfmusic
correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't ff just barely pass the acid 2 test when ff3 came out last year?
Issue One: IE8 RC1, when in standards mode, no longer reserves space for the vertical scrollbar if it isn't needed by the current content, rather like Firefox. Unlike Firefox, the '-moz-scrollbars-vertical', IE8 wants 'overflow-y: scroll;' in the body portion of the CSS. The problem: IE6 and IE7 both react ... badly to that, by putting a *second* vertical scrollbar to the left of the main one, but which only spans from the top of the canvas to the bottom of the content (not the bottom of the canvas). Note, the overflow-y thing DOES work in FF3 (didn't bother testing in FF2).
Pedantic-Man's(tm) Solution: Use the following CSS conditional statement for the body tag in your CSS*:
<!--[if IE 8]>
overflow-y: scroll;
<![endif]-->
Go ahead and keep the -moz-scrollbars-vertical in your html tag in your CSS for FF, and enjoy the sweet taste of multi-browser happiness.
* Void where prohibited by law.
yup, in the software release life cycle, release candidate comes after beta. check this out for more info on the software release life cycle
Its not that I hate them for the quality of the browser not released yet, despite having probably a 100 chances to do something right, but because of all the years I spent having to deal with buggy and bloated code from a company whose business model embraces mediocrity and dishonesty -- on multiple levels. A leopard does not change its spots. They can't be trusted, period. They have done much more to harm the advance of technology than to help it. That's what chafes most people's arses. They are the problem (or part of it), not the solution.
I bet there are at least two other ways open IE on your computer
Climate Progress - Hell and High Water
I was curious to see what they'd done since the last beta, so I installed it this morning. I had to reboot not once, but twice (once to uninstall IE8 beta2 and again I'm guessing so that it could hook into some OS files that were in use.)
After restarting the second time, it popped up some shenanigans about some add-ons not being enabled and some being out-of-date and not working. Huh? There's apparently two dozen different plugins and "helpers" installed, including 3 java widgits, a slew of Adobe stuff, and a whole lotta live.com and other MS cruft. Hmmm... Gotta admit, I have no idea what half this stuff does and I'm in Computer Security. Can you imagine the average user figuring out which one of these is the rogue add-on responsible for stealing their credit cards and redirecting their search queries to a click fraud site? Firefox's extension system is a breath of fresh air compared to this.
IE8 beta2 scored a pitiful 21/100 on acid3, RC1 now scores 20/100. Apparently acid3 is not yet a development target for MS. Seeing as their answer to web developers wanting more freedom to be creative is to "do it in Silverlight", it doesn't surprise that MS is dragging their feet here. I honestly wonder if half the stuff acid3 tests for will ever see the light of day in a top 500 website. I suspect FFx + Chrome + Safari + Opera and others will need to achieve greater than 50% market share before MS gets serious about SVG and company.
I find it amusing that IE8 gives users control over rendering like "older browsers" for incompatible websites (read: websites that were designed to work under the standards-ignorant IE6).
On the plus side:
- as for most modern browsers, it seems to render most of the top websites reasonably well.
- it has some privacy thingamajig which allows you to manually disallow sites one by one from storing cookies on your system (or at least that's how I interpretted the vague MS description)
Yeah, but I eventually had to close it when I realized how insanely annoying the web is without AdBlock Plus.
And with the release they're gonna party like it's 1999!
Protection against the relatively new threat of 'clickjacking,' where a site tries to get you to press buttons underneath a sham frame page, has also been added â" the first browser to include such protections
NOScript does this for years.
Yes, but THEY don't know any of those, either.
The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
as a web developer, im still having to deal with IE6 to ensure cross browser compatibility, and a little lost on the versioning now. how many shitface versions of ie out there that i have to test for x browser compatibility as of now ? 3 ? 5 ? 234,643 ? will it ever end ?
Read radical news here
"WebSlices give you an easy way to access frequently updated Web data, such as eBay listings or sections of a news-site page. When you hover the mouse over a content area on a page that supports this IE feature (...)"
Uh... And of course that's not something that completely goes in the opposite direction of standards, right? Making YET another thingy that only works in IE and requires specific code?
I guess I'll be waiting for IE10 before remotely thinking about the possibility of eventually using it very occasionally.
Step back a distance, emotionally, and look at your post, compared to his. If you're honest, you'll realize that your post is much more deserving of a 'fanboi' moniker.
Or, 'fanboy', if we want to use English.
The only way to open IE at my house is with Wine. Fortunately they don't know where to get a copy of IE.
I want this account deleted.
Yeah... I get it. Table layouts in Java, GTK, whatever dialog/form/window toolkit you use is GOOD, but on a web page, it's bad. Lets ignore the fact that browsers had table rendering mastered over 10 years ago... lets all just look the other way in the face that it is easier to follow.
In the realm of the world wide web, if you don't use the trendy technologies, you're a "n00b".
"When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
How does this handle conditional html. I make all my websites in valid html4+css and then include a special style sheet for ie6, and an other for ie7 to patch for those. And there have been a problem where ie8 even in ie6 render mode would not include the stylesheet for ie6, because it knew that it was really ie8. (A similary problem, happend if you used the hack to install ie6 and ie7 at the same time. They would both handel conditional html like if they were ie7.
And does the IE6 and IE7 modes, include standards mode? (The one triggered by a valid html tag, og does it only include ie6 in tag soup mode?
Might be interesting to use ie8 for testing, if I am to build a new website again, if it really can emulate the ie6 standards mode.
Really?
I thought these guys were one of the first. They had CSS2 support in... 1999?
But they aren't releasing a free-to-the-masses browser, and it looks like the company hasn't been doing much lately.
A large proportion of the desktop installed O/S's installed out there, where browsers count, are from Microsoft (like it or not), so yes this IS news for nerds.
the one that was closest to supporting it at that time was... IE
What does that mean, exactly? I think they're probably still the closest to supporting it, while modern browsers actually support it.
I am literally 3000 tokens away from the chaotic crossbow --Stephen
Well, they screamed about the glories of the unregulated market, now let them pay the price. They consistently produced inferior product lines for too long, and now we do have choice in open source.
Living in Chile
Damnation and hell for you and your kin for all of eternity. I hope the money you received burns right through your pocket and into the ground you stand on. May your petard be hoisted and forever flutter in the stench of foul winds and acrid smoke. May the bird of short-sighted bitterness fly up your rectum and build a rocky perch where only the seeds of deceit and low-mindedness find purchase until the end of time.
Sheesh. Where did you get a copy of my wedding vows??!?!?
You're just like Microsoft, I say, just like Microsoft!
Does anyone know how they are going to release this? Will it be a forced upgrade for all?
On the other hand, konqueror doesn't work with a lot of sites, and on Linux even Firefox will break on many sites, such as toyota.com
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
You imply calc is more complicated than StarCraft.
This is a true story: 6 mo. ago I got a new xp pro box at work. After I installed IE8 beta I started getting BSOD in the mornings when I came in, like Windows was doing something in the middle of the night and just froze. IT support took the box away and could not find anything wrong so they brought it back but mentioned that they noticed there was a new IE 8 "update" so they installed it. I booted it up and lo and behold IE6 is now the default browser, and no matter what I do I cannot get it to upgrade to IE7. The installer would just quit before it's finished. Finally had to re-image the machine.
What I'm saying is - if there is ANYTHING that will convince most IT shops to move away from IE 6 finally would be a relief for me as a web developer and for most PC users in general. (kinda like saying Windows 7 HAS to be better than Vista, right?)
Interestingly, the 'toyota.com' site opened on my FF (3.0.5) running on linux with no apparent display problems. What does it do on your computer?
Have a look at soylentnews.org for a different view
NoScript isn't a browser.
For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
Come on over to the Dark Side... complete your migration young padawan - we have sudo.
Seven Days with Ubuntu Unity
I tried installing it with crossover and no dice. Will keep trying though, but I do suspect that I won't get it right...
Seven Days with Ubuntu Unity
No, I'm fairly sure Firefox 3.0 beta shipped with Ubuntu 8.04.
"It doesn't cost enough, and it makes too much sense."
I can't find the download links for IE8 final on microsoft.com, only RC1... Any the only links with this story are the ads to download Google Chrome :)
I'm not sure how you missed the point so spectacularly.
Not only is there CSS to do the things people used tables, for, but table has always been an abuse of the semantic intent of that HTML document tag, muddying it and confusing parsers. Yes, HTML could use more tags, but tables are hardly necessary.
And setting aside the semantics, people who actually have to restyle your table layout later (when rewriting the site is not an option) will have every reason to curse you.
The decoupling of the layout CSS offers is a powerful tool.
And, no, web pages are not, and have never been intended to be, mapped to application UIs. Is nice that they can, but that's a very limited case, and not even the main use of web pages.
"Explore the intricacies of HTML and CSS here: http://www.htmlhelp.com/ , http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ , http://www.brainjar.com/ , http://www.htmldog.com/ , http://css.maxdesign.com.au/"
-- ZofBot db
-- perl -e'print pack"H*","6e656d6f406d38792e6f7267"'
Yes, when Internet Explorer 8 is released, Microsoft will finally have implemented decent support for CSS 2, a specification published over a decade ago. I hope everybody here on Slashdot will join me in welcoming Microsoft to 1998. Truly, they deserve all the credit they are going to get for being so ahead of the curve. Keep innovating, Microsoft! Don't let those slow-coaches at the W3C hold you back!
Be careful here in your sarcastic flaming. ;-)
Firefox 3 doesn't support CSS 2.1.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
meh, some number of developers will decide IE6 support isn't worth the effort which will cause some IE6 users to actually look for an alternative. Eventually, IE6 will only be used for internal apps that will never be upgraded and not regular browsing. Similarly, IE7 will eventually fade away.
*sigh* back to work...
Better provide the bugs btw...
I'll spare Bugzilla though...
1. Bug 2056: display: run-in not implemented
2. Bug 115199: @page in CSS2 not implemented
3. Bug 132035: Support all page-break-* CSS2.1 properties
4. Bug 137367: Implement orphans and widows
Those are needed for CSS 2.1 support. IE 8 doesn't suffer from at least bug 115199 there, I know that for sure. The thing is, is that Microsoft aimed for full CSS 2.1 support in IE 8 rather than e.g. Acid3 work.
It can be argued whether it's more important to focus on e.g. DOM standardizing behavior for the Acid3 test scores, or to support a decade old standard completely. From how I put this, I hope at least someone, somewhere, will have a sligthly better understanding of why Microsoft *are* doing what they are. You may not agree with them, but perhaps at least understand.
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Previously I'd tested current and nightly versions of Safari/Webkit, FireFox, Opera and IE. I tested IE8 RC1 on the same machine under the same conditions. Results here. Short story is that RC1 significantly outperforms Beta2, but still falls short of the competition. It also seems to have added some regexp code that lets it perform freakishly well on Dromaeo's "regular expressions" suite.
I think the point is more that if I lay out a page with tables ("Oh the humanity!") then I'm done. If I try and lay out a page with CSS, I have to lay it all out so it works, then create three different versions so that it renders in all the broken versions of IE, plus Safari and whatever else I want to support.
I'm sure that if you're getting paid by the hour, all that time spent doing browser-version tweaks is great. But for a lot of folks who don't want to bother with laying a page out three or four times, tables are fine.
As an aside, I'm not sure I get your point about maintainability. If I change the page layout, of course I'll have to create a new table structure. But I'm not clear on why this is inherently more difficult that creating a new CSS layout, and then doing all the browser-specific tweaks.
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The only way to open IE at the house is in the "run" tab, the wife and kid don't know where that is.
And if they ever figure it out, you can always run a transparent web proxy to block the MSIE user agent for all sites except Microsoft.com :)
Agreed. Google is good at this - Gmail has been the best web-based email since it launched, and Google seems intent on improving it. Every time I turn around it's faster or has more features, and my storage keeps going up and up.
That's the kind of thing that generates fanatic users who tell their friends to switch. My perception of MS is that they only play catch-up, and generally fail to emulate their competitors well. It doesn't exactly inspire loyalty.
Fine...
Safari 3.2.1 (525.27.1) = 75
Chrome 1.0.154.43 = 79
Firefox 3.1 b2 = 93
Opera was already the latest.
The point is you can add hundreds of styles to a single document (see csszengarden.com for hundreds of examples that work even in IE, using basic CSS) with a single included file.
In many cases, accessing the HTML is not as easy, and requires rewriting a great deal of code, or code templates.
As for the 3 different versions, that is utter nonsense.
Most people who have spent more than a few days getting the hang of CSS learn the few rules for working around IE (see haslayout.net which also gets into the abominable hacks that were crammed into Trident).
The other 3 browsers (Safari, Firefox and Opera) so long as you don't get too fancy, work fine with almost no surprises.
So. Basically, you make a style, easily, then you make a separate stylesheet for IE. Done.
Basically, you're defending this approach because yes, that's all there was when you and I started this sort of thing 15 years ago or more.
But you know, even then CSS was in the works to deal with the frustrations of hacking it into HTML.
Times have changed in past 15 years.
Deal with it.
-- perl -e'print pack"H*","6e656d6f406d38792e6f7267"'
If I were you, I would support any kind of IE update to version 6. IE 6 must go away in one way or another.
For the performance? Well, don't push the thing as it has "tabs as processes". What matters is Windows getting a good, more secure (compared to unfixable IE6) and said to be more standards compliant HTML framework. Other than that? Just don't launch the thing.
If you really want to use Win2K, I suggest you convert to Opera. They have a very good history of never abandoning their users (they even support win98!) and thanks to their mobile developer culture, they always take security and performance as first priority. When you say "This is it", you can also use same browser on Linux with same settings too.
Of course, I hope you run a good firewall/AV combination there. Blaster doesn't really care what browser you use :)
But at what point should they stop? Should Firefox include pop-up blockers? After all, plugins allow someone to not install it if desired -- even the pop-up blocker.
Indeed I'm partisan to the idea that anything that doesn't directly have to do with rendering HTML pages, should go into plugins. - even if those plugins are bundled by default with the main installer (the same way the bug feedback is a plugin although packaged with the installer).
* Pop-up blockers
* Spell checkers
and lot of similar functionality would better go into plugins - even if those plugins go through mozilla QA and are installed by the mozilla installer.
This could enable people doing bare minimal browser installs (obtain the same level of functionality and ressource requirement as, say, Dillo) if they want.
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On both 32-bit and 64-bit Linux the vehicle menus are inaccessible (the infamous flash-is-top-layer-no-matter-what issue, rendering DHTML menus worthless when a flash object is below it, the 360* views are inaccessible, and most of the other flash features on the site don't work. I need to either boot to Vista (which I won't do except to run games) or use my notebook.
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