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Universal Disk Encryption Spec Finalized

Lucas123 writes "Six of the largest disk manufacturers, along with encryption management software vendors, are backing three specifications finalized [Tuesday] that will eventually standardize the way encryption is used in firmware within hard disk drives and solid state disk drive controllers ensuring interoperability. Disk vendors are free to choose to use AES 128-bit or AES 256-bit keys depending on the level of security they want. 'This represents interoperability commitments from every disk drive maker on the planet,' said Robert Thibadeau, chief technologist at Seagate Technology."

237 comments

  1. Disk vendors are free to choose by SpaceLifeForm · · Score: 5, Insightful
    What about the owner?

    Why should this be trustable?

    --
    You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
    1. Re:Disk vendors are free to choose by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The drive is "trusted" because the "owner" isn't.

    2. Re:Disk vendors are free to choose by Kamokazi · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's a standard for hardware encryption so you don't have to worry about interoperability. If you're that concerned, load up Truecrypt and pick what you want.

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    3. Re:Disk vendors are free to choose by MrNaz · · Score: 3, Funny

      The SS?

      1955 called. They want their bad guys back.

      --
      I hate printers.
    4. Re:Disk vendors are free to choose by Eivind · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A standard is a good thing. Assuming you can get at the encrypted blocks, this makes it possible to *test* that a certain implementation is conforming to the standard. This gives better guarantees than simply to trust the undocumented, untested encryption invented by some manufacturer.

      There can be bugs in the standard, offcourse, but it's going to get heavy scrutiny by very competent crypto-heads, so any obvious mistakes should be discovered quickly.

    5. Re:Disk vendors are free to choose by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      It's called competition. I know that if I led one of the six, I would ask my research development to periodically test if all the others are doing what they should. If not, I would make sure that everyone would hear about it.

    6. Re:Disk vendors are free to choose by noidentity · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Why should this be trustable?

      I think we can fully trust manufacturers to take a shortcut and implement this as dual ROT-13 encryption, perhaps with a delay thrown in to make it seem like it's doing something. How would the average user determine whether the magnetic patterns on the disk are encrypted anyway? This seems very similar to the issue with electronic voting machines, only worse. Encryption on the host machine seems far superior, since the data is never traveling over the I/O bus unencrypted, and it's much easier to verify that the data is actually being encrypted.

    7. Re:Disk vendors are free to choose by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      Really? There is no such thing as the Secret Service?

      High school called, they want your social studies grade back.

    8. Re:Disk vendors are free to choose by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      I see you've used HTTPS for Subversion, where the canonical implementation stores your passwords in clear-text in your home directory, and raising a concern about this gets you told "if your client isn't secure, you shouldn't be doing source control from it".

      This makes explaining to people why you will not allow them to use the same passwords for Subversion on HTTPS as they use for their email and X logins a bit of a problem.

    9. Re:Disk vendors are free to choose by Monkeybaister · · Score: 1

      I think if there was a bad implementation, that the government wasn't getting their fingers into, they would be opening themselves up to lawsuits that would hopefully crumble the company.

      Big businesses are likely to start using these to encrypt confidential data on laptops, maybe even desktops. So if they find out through a data leak via one of these drives and it's not encrypting with the encryption advertised and that's what lead to the leak, then the drive maker is going to get sued for the cost of the leak, the cost to replace every single drive the company used (possibly with a competitor's), and probably some more on top of that for being so stupid. Oh, and then every other business customer will sue to have all their drives replaced with ones that will actually protect their data.

      Think of companies like Microsoft or IBM finding out the huge number of drives they bought for every single laptop they have isn't actually protecting the data they need by law to protect.

      I would only worry that the manufacturer or the government has a backdoor because the government would probably protect the manufacturer then.

    10. Re:Disk vendors are free to choose by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why this knee jerk reaction ?

      Security is based on trust. always and ever. If you do not trust some identity to provide security, don't do business with them. That is the choice you have as owner.

      This is valid for car keys, condoms, credit cards, sunblock factor 60 and, yes, encryption products.

    11. Re:Disk vendors are free to choose by SlaveToSoftware · · Score: 1

      Ahh.. ROT13.... I remember the jokes.

  2. itsatrap? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    How can we trust their implementation?

    1. Re:itsatrap? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      at least on linux they use the native dm-crypt layer

    2. Re:itsatrap? by mebrahim · · Score: 1

      Maybe open source hardware make things a little better, although it is not the solution on its own.

  3. It's not an encryption spec... by (Score.5,+Interestin · · Score: 5, Informative

    ... it's TPM glue for hard drives. The spec says almost nothing about encryption and authentication, it's just a bunch of TPM command and control mechanisms for hard drives. The IEEE P1696 working group is the one working on secure hard-drive encryption. Unfortunately the TPM people have better PR people than the CS and EE types doing the IEEE work do.

    1. Re:It's not an encryption spec... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      That should be P1619, not P1696.

    2. Re:It's not an encryption spec... by this+great+guy · · Score: 4, Informative

      The parent poster made a typo in the IEEE project name. It's P1619. Their main full disk encryption spec is XTS-AES, and is currently implemented by the Linux dm-crypt layer (cipher name aes-xts-plain), and by OpenBSD. I have been using it for almost a year on my laptop.

    3. Re:It's not an encryption spec... by (Score.5,+Interestin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The parent poster made a typo in the IEEE project name. It's P1619.

      You're right, sorry, typo while trying to get first post :-). Their home page is here, and they've had their specs out for nearly two years. How can any group that has an official Wine Tasting Standing Subcommittee be a bad thing?

    4. Re:It's not an encryption spec... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you actually took a look at the spec, you'd realize that this has nothing to do with the TPM. The specifications released by the TCG Storage Workgroup indeed describe a command architecture. However, its sole purpose is to allow the owner to control access to ranges of LBA that he himself defined - typically mapped to partitions -.
      Each of those LBA ranges is encrypted with an independent key by the drive hardware. Upon power-up, the user authenticates to the drive and unlocks the ranges he/she is interested in accessing.
      This is solely for the purpose of protecting against data leakage in case of laptop/drive theft. As a side benefit, it also provides the user a quick way of erasing the drive by erasing a single cryptographic key.

      Also, the work done in IEEE1619 to standardize the XTS mode is completely orthogonal to this work. The TCG specification allows drive manufacturers to use the XTS mode if they so choose...

    5. Re:It's not an encryption spec... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Anybody out there know if this will automatically use the aes engine in my geode lx if I turn this on? It would be a neat feature for a webpad, for sure. Especially one with no swap to mess things up.

      --
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    6. Re:It's not an encryption spec... by pipatron · · Score: 1

      So you mean that the CPU should send the data to the drive for storage, the drive should then encrypt it by sending it back to the CPU, and the CPU should then send it back to the drive a second time, but now encrypted? Sounds like some part here is unnecessary...

      --
      c++; /* this makes c bigger but returns the old value */
    7. Re:It's not an encryption spec... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Try to stay with me here, I'm not talking about the on-disk whole-disk encryption which can be used to prevent you from getting to your own data without any control since the drive firmware is closed. I'm talking about using the crypto layer to Linux device manager to do the encryption, and I'm talking about offloading that from the CPU (where it normally runs) to the AES coprocessor in my CPU. Next time, if you keep up, I'll let you have the carrot. The data is encrypted before it is even sent to the disk.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:It's not an encryption spec... by pipatron · · Score: 1

      In that case, it seems that dm-crypt *can* use the geode lx, but there might be some issues with unsupported key sizes.

      --
      c++; /* this makes c bigger but returns the old value */
    9. Re:It's not an encryption spec... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Sounds fairly unsurprising. I just visited the processor support page and downloaded all the patches. I don't know if I actually need any of them or not :) The only thing in my DT360 I don't know will work on linux is the wifi which is a VIA USB jobber. I suppose I could nab the wifi card out of my rokubox, I'm fairly certain that will work. Hell, it's probably way better than what's in my machine now, too, and it has an external antenna jack. I already have a patch which cures ACPI and backlight for DT360 (thank you, mag. dr. klepp. did I remember that right? anyway.)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  4. trust by Iamthecheese · · Score: 1

    That information is not available. The PDF linked to as "the spec" is merely a press release, and the other linked documents aren't any better. It seems like they haven't really agreed.

    --
    If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
  5. ok by larry+bagina · · Score: 1

    everytime you turn on your computer, you need to enter a password to access the hard drive. That's not going to work so well if your computer is sitting in a data center on the other side of the country.

    --
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    These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    1. Re:ok by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What if your computer sits on your desk in your house?

    2. Re:ok by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Funny

      Just phone in a threat to an elected official, and the NSA will unlock the drive remotely for you. A handy service, and so responsive...

    3. Re:ok by jandrese · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hard drive encryption doesn't really offer much to a machine sitting in a data center though. The real value is on laptop hard drives where there is a much greater chance of having your machine stolen at some point. Built-in full disk encryption will help prevent the crook from getting at all of your data.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    4. Re:ok by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or within the duffel bag of a laptop-thievin' ninja?

    5. Re:ok by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I disagree. It simplifies end-of-life data protection.

      When the hard drive dies, or you discard the machine, you no longer have to physically destroy the drive to protect your information.

    6. Re:ok by yahwotqa · · Score: 1

      Such computer should be equipped with a remote console interface.

    7. Re:ok by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      I disagree. It does both.

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    8. Re:ok by anss123 · · Score: 1

      Just phone in a threat to an elected official, and the NSA will unlock the drive remotely for you. A handy service, and so responsive...

      Great tip. This will solve all my current problems.

    9. Re:ok by jandrese · · Score: 1

      However, it also decreases the chance of recovering data from a failed drive if your backup system has a malfunction and a drive goes.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
  6. Seagate's stragegy.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    brick your hardrive. Now it's secure.

    1. Re:Seagate's stragegy.. by MrEricSir · · Score: 1

      Can I cut to the chase and just put a brick inside my computer?

      I hope they make 3.5" bricks...

      --
      There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
    2. Re:Seagate's stragegy.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Headline: "Apple Sues Seagate For IP Infringement..."

      Where_have_all_my_files_gone?

    3. Re:Seagate's stragegy.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      brick your hardrive. Now it's secure.

      Actually it could be ... I work in IT for a police agency and if a SAN is decommissioned at the moment we retain all the drives indefinitely, even after they have been securely erased. If they could be bricked as well we would do it.

      Just counting down the years until the drive store is full and we need to start drilling them too :)

    4. Re:Seagate's stragegy.. by fracai · · Score: 1

      Hah! Why did you have to go and post anon?

      http://support.apple.com/kb/TA37301

      --
      -- i am jack's amusing sig file
    5. Re:Seagate's stragegy.. by iMouse · · Score: 1

      Forgot to log in before I posted. Double-posts I'm sure are frowned upon. :-P

      You gotta admit, they could have just told the OS to pop a "This Disk Is Unreadable" message, but they didn't. Instead, they gave people a small heart attack until they read the document.

    6. Re:Seagate's stragegy.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To be fair, if the HDD is bricked, no unauthorized personnel can access your data.

      However, I work at Seagate and I can tell you that there are two keys for every HDD we make, one to access the data, one to change the key (thus cryptographically erasing the data). Thus, if you forget the data key you can freely reset it with the other key, however, you can't access the data with the second key.

      Thus the drive is not bricked if you forget the data key, but the data is essentially gone.

  7. A few questions... by Rog-Mahal · · Score: 1

    When are drives conforming to this standard going to be available? Also, the article mentions using this type of encryption to, say, lock up a laptop and keep a kid from using it. That seems to imply that there will be some kind of user interface. Wouldn't the encryption keys be unwieldy and hard to remember? If it's baked into the hardware, what about swapping drives between machines? If users are able to create their own passwords, wouldn't these drives be just as crackable as any other?

    1. Re:A few questions... by jamstar7 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If the keys are burned in, are they then supplied to the various law enforcement agencies to make things easier on them?

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    2. Re:A few questions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the keys are burned in, are they then supplied to the various law enforcement agencies to make things easier on them?

      First hack will be to diddle the key so no one else knows.
       

    3. Re:A few questions... by clampolo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I worked for a company that shipped encrypted firmware. We were required to send the keys to the NSA.

    4. Re:A few questions... by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 1

      If the keys are burned in, are they then supplied to the various law enforcement agencies to make things easier on them?

      No need. A list of all possible encryption keys can be generated easily, and they've been told how to do this. They just need to try them sequentially...

      --
      Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    5. Re:A few questions... by Atlantis-Rising · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And yet, somehow I don't believe you.

      To be more specific, I find it illogical to assume that the NSA would require you to provide them with the keys and at the same time let you talk about it.

      Given this, I am suspicious of your claim in the extreme.

      --
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    6. Re:A few questions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe the ninja watching his house went for a quick coffee break?

    7. Re:A few questions... by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Good point. clampolo, care to comment?

      clampolo?

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    8. Re:A few questions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jeeze, take off your tin foil hat already. Why would the NSA care that people are informed of this? They'll just shrug and say "Yeah, we have agreements with the hardware manufacturers, so what?". Thwarting evil can require access to hidden information. This is the NSA's frikkin' JOB.

      Captcha: "override". Fitting, eh?

    9. Re:A few questions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yup, and a list of all possible 200-page books can be generated easily*. To find any given book, you just have to go through the library of Babel in sequence.

      *for certain values of "easily". All it takes is a series of nested "for" loops covering all letters of the alphabet. You just need as many nested loops as there are letters in a book.

    10. Re:A few questions... by robert899 · · Score: 1

      To be more specific, I find it illogical to assume that the NSA would require you to provide them with the keys and at the same time let you talk about it.

      Perhaps the product is not classified but falls under some sort of export control. Forking over the key is a requirement prior to selling the product outside the USA.

    11. Re:A few questions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To be more specific, I find it illogical to assume that the NSA would require you to provide them with the keys and at the same time let you talk about it.

      (S)he doesn't work there anymore, so (s)he can now talk about it. The NSA cannot legally censor speech since it is a government agency.

    12. Re:A few questions... by clampolo · · Score: 1

      Perhaps the product is not classified but falls under some sort of export control. Forking over the key is a requirement prior to selling the product outside the USA.

      Yeah, that sounds about right. I worked for a major semiconductor company. The stuff was always on bleeding edge foundry processes so it was probably under export controls.

    13. Re:A few questions... by jamstar7 · · Score: 1

      Maybe so, but aren't they supposed to get a warrant first? I believe I read it ...

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
  8. They key words by dmomo · · Score: 4, Funny

    here are "on the PLANET". Looks like they've got a bit more work to do before EVERYONE agrees to do this.

  9. Dumb Question by sstpm · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Can any storage gurus explain the real-world benefit to this? Is it currently impossible to encrypt a RAID volume built on two different manufacturers' disks?

    1. Re:Dumb Question by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      No, not if you are using software. The idea here is to build encryption into hardware, so the performance will be vastly better.

      But if the encryption is in hardware, then it better be interoperable! Otherwise, imagine if you had to substitute an odd brand in order to rebuild an encrypted RAID array, even if just for emergency purposes. If the encryption were in hardware, and the implementations were not de facto identical, then it wouldn't work.

    2. Re:Dumb Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is why you use software raid and software encryption. On linux, raid and encryption are stackable and you can have devices that are encryption on top of raid spread across disks from different manufacturers. Fedora even lets you set this up easily during installs.

  10. Why not just use TrueCrypt? by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 5, Informative

    Why not just use TrueCrypt pre-boot system partition encryption? The benefit of a hardware standard is not immediately clear to me.

    1. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by PitaBred · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because the hardware standard doesn't use your CPU for the encryption and decryption? Specialized hardware will always be faster and use less power to do a specific job than general-purpose hardware like your CPU.

    2. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by MSG · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Specialized hardware will always be faster and use less power to do a specific job than general-purpose hardware like your CPU.

      Not "always", and not "and".

      Specialized hardware will usually be faster than the CPU, and will usually yield an overall faster system by virtue of the fact that the CPU is free from those tasks.

      However (and purely as an example), Linux's software RAID is faster than many hardware RAID controllers, and a system lacking a dedicated hardware RAID controller very well may use less power than an equivalent system with one.

    3. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by MrNaz · · Score: 3, Funny

      The vast and growing chasm between CPU power and the crunching needs of personal computing have rendered this argument obsolete. Please upgrade to MS Arguments 2009, or the open source alternative, OpenMouth v0.9b3

      --
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    4. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by Eighty7 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      No one knows who wrote TrueCrypt. No one knows who maintains TC. Moderators on the TC forum ban users who ask questions. TC claims to be based on Encryption for the Masses (E4M). They also claim to be open source, but do not maintain public CVS/SVN repositories and do not issue change logs. They ban folks from the forums who ask for change logs or old source code. They also silently change binaries (md5 hashes change) with no explanation... zero. The Trademark is held by a man in the Czech Republic ((REGISTRANT) Tesarik, David INDIVIDUAL CZECH REPUBLIC Taussigova 1170/5 Praha CZECH REPUBLIC 18200.) Domains are registered private by proxy. Some folks claim it has a backdoor. Who Knows? These guys say they can find TC volumes:

      http://16systems.com/TCHunt/index.html

      For these reasons, I won't use it. Encryption is important and TC looks great and makes great claims, but TC should be more transparent.

      from: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7otuy/who_wrote_this_software_an_excia_agent/

    5. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by dfn_deux · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      I wish I had a mod point for this, but mine expired yesterday. This is true and insightful and exactly the sort of comment that slashdot needs to see more of.

      --
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    6. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by dido · · Score: 5, Interesting

      However (and purely as an example), Linux's software RAID is faster than many hardware RAID controllers, and a system lacking a dedicated hardware RAID controller very well may use less power than an equivalent system with one.

      Speaking from experience, this seems to be true only of the 'fakeraid' setups that you see on cheap RAID controllers, which aren't really hardware RAID at all. They cheat and instead use firmware that executes on the main CPU to do the RAID, making them no better in principle and more often than not worse in performance than the Linux kernel's heavily optimized high-performance software RAID implementation. True dedicated hardware RAID controllers, such as the HP Smartarray, IBM ServeRAID, and the RAID controllers you see on fiberchannel SANs, are actually quite rare except in enterprise setups, and they are in general much faster than the Linux software RAID implementation.

      But of course, nothing stops a manufacturer from doing bad engineering and making a product that has a dedicated piece of hardware that actually does the job slower than the main CPU would. And performance is not the only reason to make a dedicated hardware implementation of some bit of functionality. It could be done for "trusted computing" purposes for instance, in which case, it doesn't matter that it's slow, just that it keeps control out of the hands of the main CPU.

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    7. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by Wescotte · · Score: 1

      I thought it was a fact that dedicated hardware (properly designed) is ALWAYS faster than software.

      I plead ignorance here as I don't know much about RAID but I wonder if the reason software raid (can) be faster is because they have poorly implemented drivers? Or conflicting design with how Linux operators?

      If this is in fact not the case would you perhaps point me to further evidence of such cases as I think I would find it very interesting.

    8. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by troll8901 · · Score: 1

      Also recommended are Lotus Humor for Humans 3.1 and IBM Common Sense for Humans 1.4 as well. Both closed-source unfortunately.

    9. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      It's not that hardware raid is faster on $$ controllers, it's that its battery backed and makes it possible for the storage system to commit the transactions they have in the caches.

    10. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I tried this util. using tc6.0a to create a 1GB file volume with a 512k hidden both of which were serpent-twofish-aes wrapped, tchunt failed to find it.

    11. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by BuckoA51 · · Score: 1

      All TC hunt seems to be doing is finding files with the .tc extension. That is something I can do in windows by opening the start menu and searching for ".tc"

    12. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by amorsen · · Score: 3, Interesting

      True dedicated hardware RAID controllers, such as the HP Smartarray, IBM ServeRAID, and the RAID controllers you see on fiberchannel SANs, are actually quite rare except in enterprise setups, and they are in general much faster than the Linux software RAID implementation.

      Smartarray is dead slow for RAID5, and RAID1 in software doesn't tax the CPU. RAID controllers are only worth it because it can be hard to get Linux booting reliably from a software RAID 1 with a failed disk. As for RAID levels other than RAID1 and RAID10, don't.

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    13. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by amorsen · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The best RAID coprocessors are made by companies like Intel and AMD. You can find them under names like "Xeon" or "Opteron".

      Shamelessly stolen from Alan Cox.

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    14. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by sdiz · · Score: 1

      I tried this util. using tc6.0a to create a 1GB file volume with a 512k hidden both of which were serpent-twofish-aes wrapped, tchunt failed to find it.

      I guess you are using the alpha version?
      http://16systems.com/TCHunt/alpha.html

      Only locates TC volumes between 15MB and 100MB in size. The only purpose of this is to limit the usefulness of the alpha version. Unrestricted versions of TCHunt search for volumes between 19KB and 1TB.

    15. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by wdef · · Score: 1
      Use loop-aes: http://sourceforge.net/projects/loop-aes/

      Its author (Jari Ruusu) frequents the email list and answers questions. Loop-aes is actively in development and has a changelog. It is highly stable and in general well-regarded.

      If you want a wrapper to simplify use, even with multiple encryption, you could try my script tripl, which is about to get an update: http://tripl.sourceforge.net/

    16. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Hardware raid is not always faster than software. Often the opposite is the case. However, speed is only one factor, the other is CPU offloading.

      If you are running a CPU-heavy computation, I/O speed is not so much the important thing, as making sure that every CPU cycle is available for the computation.

      However, if your main bottleneck is I/O, the main CPU can do a lot more "raid-stuff" than the much slower CPU on a raid card. While the main CPU may be 3 GHz, 8 core, the RAID one may only be a couple of hundred MHz with a passive heat sink. You don't see a lot of raid cards with a 3 GHz multicore CPU where the heat sink and fan will block the five adjacent slots.

    17. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by Cruicky · · Score: 1

      It's a simple entropy scanner, nothing more. You can prove this by doing the following like I have done. Generate a 75MB file from /dev/urandom using dd, copy it to a Windows machine, then run TCHunt. It will find the file you made, even though it isn't a TrueCrypt volume.

    18. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL. Not only did it not hit my truecrypt volume. But it did find my collection of test WAVs!

      GAAAWD how I'd love to see someone try to crack "pink_noise_m3dB_1min.wav"

    19. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Still, good luck finding my encrypted Truecrypt header, with the rest of the file steg'd into pictures using my custom steg program that i remember mentally!

      I go through with a hex editor and change it back manually!
      You kids and your decompressors.

    20. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      Their FAQ states that this is not the case, and ignores file name and extensions. I did notice only .tc extensions in the screenhots, though, so maybe it's snakeoil.

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    21. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 1

      does it false-positive on simple compressed files, too?

      --
      -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
    22. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by AlecC · · Score: 1

      The problem with most "hardware" raid controllers is that they are actually software raid controllers: there is just a fairly conventional CPU on the Raid card doing exactly the same as the main CPU would do. Not many actually calculate the parity in dedicated hardware. The ones that do will give much better performance.

      --
      Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
    23. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cold. Boot. Attack.

    24. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by fracai · · Score: 1

      Pffht, just means you haven't uncovered the keys I used when I altered the /dev/urandom generation source to output my TC volume. What better way to protect your data than to mirror it in every *nix computer on the planet?

      --
      -- i am jack's amusing sig file
    25. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does OpenMouth v0.9b3 support the new "Foot" plug-in yet?

    26. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by MasterOfMagic · · Score: 1

      Because pre-boot system partition encryption only works on x86/x86_64 and only for Windows.

    27. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      The vast and growing chasm between CPU power and the crunching needs of personal computing have rendered this argument obsolete. Please upgrade to MS Arguments 2009, or the open source alternative, OpenMouth v0.9b3

      wait - that almost sounds sorta like choosing between "wife" and "girlfriend" ..

    28. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by groffg · · Score: 1

      Benefits are as follows:

      1. The unencrypted portion of the disk (boot record) can still be tampered with: a. planting passphrase-stealing code in boot code for later retrieval b. brute-forcing the passphrase

      2. The user might only need to type in a short PIN number rather than a long passphrase. Often, the weakness of an encryption solution isn't the encryption, but bad practices on the part of the user, including bad passwords. A hardware-based solution means that a strong, cryptographically random password is generated, and then unlocked by a weaker password/PIN. However, the hardware chip restricts the number of guesses an attacker can make, meaning the entropy of the password/PIN is less relevant.

      4. Resistance to cold boot" attack. This attack exploits the fact that the contents of RAM can be read even after shutting down a machine, meaning that cryptographic keys held in RAM can be obtained. Hardware-based full disk encryption (FDE) solutions retain the key (in a safe, tamper-resistant memory cache) rather than ever copying it to main memory.

      Ultimately, the reason for the focus on hardware-based FDE has a lot to do with economics and little to do with conspiracy theories. Private enterprise knows that government and corporate mandates to secure mobile media mean that the demand for FDE will rise. Companies that are responsive will flourish; others will lose market share. Solutions that are later found to fail or have a backdoor in any form will be subject to massive liability, such as lawsuits, as well as massive divestment. It's economics, not geekdom, that is driving hardware-based FDE.

    29. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seems like this could be used to tie unique drives to unique drive controllers, or it could be intended to specifically prevent that. it works both ways but unless your the admin its no longer your hardware.

    30. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by swillden · · Score: 1

      Speaking from experience, this seems to be true only of the 'fakeraid' setups that you see on cheap RAID controllers, which aren't really hardware RAID at all.

      Not in my experience. For one data point, a few weeks ago I set up a system both ways, and ended up using MD because it performs better.

      The system was a Dell blade server, with six 15K RPM SCSI U-320 drives connected to a PERC4 RAID controller. The CPU was a quad Xeon (actually, a pair of dual-cores, IIRC). One of the six drives was smaller, and used as the boot drive, the other five were striped together in RAID-0.

      Linux MD-RAID kicked the PERC4's ass, by a good 30%, at least for RAID-0. I don't think we tried RAID-5, unfortunately, but I don't think the results would have been any different. A fast Xeon can do parity calculations at a rate of *gigabytes* per second, so no common array of drives can feed (or take) the data fast enough that the CPU is a limiting factor.

      Given that, the assertion that the RAID card is FASTER than your main CPU is just silly. You're basically asserting that the engineers who designed the RAID card are incompetent, because they built vastly more capacity into the card than will ever be used. Of course they don't do that. Instead, they look at drive performance and choose an approach that meets those demands, whether with a small stock CPU or an ASIC or FPGA.

      Now, where the RAID card does win is when the main CPU is already busy. If your CPU has to stop doing other useful work in order to crunch parity bits, then offloading that work onto the RAID card makes sense. However, processor performance growth has been outstripping I/O bandwidth, so this is less of an issue than it used to be. If keeping up with the full bandwidth of your disks only consumes 5% of your processor, the advantage of hardware RAID is less than if it consumes 50%.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    31. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by swillden · · Score: 1

      I thought it was a fact that dedicated hardware (properly designed) is ALWAYS faster than software.

      If the software is running on sufficiently fast hardware, you're limited by the I/O bandwidth of the drives. At that point, hardware and software RAID should perform identically.

      Keep in mind that the parity calculations we're talking about are very simple. A modern Opteron or Xeon could keep up with the calculations for a drive array that delivered gigabytes per second, but neither drives nor their I/O channels are that fast.

      That being the case, the only performance advantage of hardware RAID is in offloading that (small) bit of work from the main CPU, and you only realize a benefit if those CPU cycles are used on some other task, rather than just idling.

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      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    32. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by swillden · · Score: 1

      It's not that hardware raid is faster on $$ controllers, it's that its battery backed and makes it possible for the storage system to commit the transactions they have in the caches.

      That's doesn't improve performance. It allows the OS to kick the data out of its own buffers sooner, but it doesn't increase sustained throughput, and it's not like most servers are really hurting for RAM to buffer up writes.

      It does improve reliability in the event of a power failure, but servers should be on UPS power anyway.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    33. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Were the drives attached to the PERC4 when you did the software RAID? If not, was it possible you were limited by PCI bandwidth? That's one thing I've noticed... MD performance is severely affected by where the drives are attached. I get 15-20MB/s slower transfer rates if I attach my SATA drives to a PCI card instead of the internal SATA ports, which are on the PCIe bus.

    34. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 3, Interesting

      All TCHunt does is look for random data. If you append 100MB of /dev/urandom to a file and run TCHunt, it will "recognise" it as a TrueCrypt volume.

      This is not a secret. This is how encryption works. Obfuscating your data inside a apparently plaintext structured format is called stenanography and is another subject entirely.

      The changelog is here

      Discussions on using CVS and other version control are scattered throughout the forums without apparent quoshing by the admins. Yes, old versions of the source are not available - unless you already downloaded them, of course.

      The MD5 hashes changing for the installer was just that - they rebuilt the installers with some of the new setup (like offering the option to disable the pagefile) from the version 6 installers, but the binaries inside remained identical. Doing this is rather poor practice because it raises this sort of question, but hey, you trusted the first file signed with their PGP key, why not the second? The TCHunt guys have an archive of old TrueCrypt versions, but they won't let you download them now for bandwidth reasons ; it might be illuminating to pick through the various MD5 versions and compare the actual binaries installed.

      If someone is concerned about back doors, they can audit the code, and build it themselves. (don't respond to this with the Ken Thompson compiler back door proposition). Undoubtedly there are people that do this, although they are not equipped to sign their builds with the TC foundation PGP key.

      As a popular encryption soft, I have no doubt it comes under scrutiny. I might trust it a mite more if it was signed by Bruce Schneier's key though :-)

    35. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by Glendale2x · · Score: 1

      Even if you have a UPS your power supply can still flip out. Usually at 3am. Stupid cheap caps are everywhere these days. Likewise I've seen a UPS and its batteries fail more times than the mains. Self test time? Oops, time to turn off! So many things can go wrong. Controllers with battery-backed cache should be given strong consideration if you're building something with the intent to be reliable.

      Of course make sure you test the battery on your RAID card, too. At least when it fails it just shuts off the write cache, not the whole enchilada.

      --
      this is my sig
    36. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      For disk encryption, CPU IO is more of a problem than processing speed.

      Crypto pipes everything through the CPU, blowing away cache and interrupting other tasks. You also can't use DMA to load from disk to RAM when doing CPU crypto.

      It's about IO.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    37. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by gillbates · · Score: 1

      The benefit of a hardware standard is not immediately clear to me...

      1.) Normally, software encryption stores the keys in main memory, where they can be stolen by an opportunistic virus, or someone running your system image in a VM.

      2.) As I haven't (yet) read the standard, I cannot say this is the case, but it is possible that the disk uses the hash of your password as the key. As such, the key is never visible to the CPU at any time, and can't be compromised by viruses or VMs. Furthermore, such a scheme is more immune to cold-boot attacks where the residual RAM image can be used to recover the key.

      --
      The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
    38. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank god, I don't think the quad core processors out there are up to the task of disk encryption.

      Thats bullshit. This is a backdoor scheme and nothing more.

    39. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by dfn_deux · · Score: 1
      I've had plenty of experience with "true" hardware raid cards to be able to say that in the best cases they will be faster than software on a given system, but if you use the same money you spent on the specialized hardware instead on improving the base config and using a more traditional non-raid drive controller you can often match or exceed the performance and you will always have a more clear upgrade path as you needn't be tied to a given manufacturer or involve your self with a build a temporary data store migrate between older and newer hardware. Look at Sun's ZFS storage boxes that use non-raid sata and sas controllers as an example. Even some of netapp and EMC boxes are primarily general purpose hardware inside and just use highly optimized software raid with tight integration into software volume management and filesystem.

      Look at people who spent big bucks on SSL cards or TCP offload ethernet cards only a few years ago and are now left with hardware that is slower than software only solutions for these tasks on more modern GP hardware.

      Of course there are some edge cases where this doesn't matter as perhaps you need the absolute highest performance right now and are already maxed out on the rest of the GP gear. Or maybe in some very atypical load situations.

      --
      -*The above statement is printed entirely on recycled electrons*-
    40. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not that hardware raid is faster on $$ controllers, it's that its battery backed and makes it possible for the storage system to commit the transactions they have in the caches.

      That's doesn't improve performance. It allows the OS to kick the data out of its own buffers sooner, but it doesn't increase sustained throughput, and it's not like most servers are really hurting for RAM to buffer up writes.

      This is wrong.

      The AC specifically referred to RAID controllers with battery backed or non-volatile buffers, which have a different purpose than unbacked RAM installed in a server or a cheaper RAID card that loses its contents when software or power fails.

      For a database server that must commit transactions to stable storage before moving on or an NFS server required to commit writes before replying to a request, adding non-volatile write cache that allows for instantaneous response, absorption of bursts, and reordering of actual writes definitely does help. Buffering ordered writes in volatile RAM that were supposed to be committed is not an option.

      It does improve reliability in the event of a power failure, but servers should be on UPS power anyway.

      A UPS doesn't help in case of an OS crash, reset button push, or power cord being pulled.

    41. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by swillden · · Score: 1

      Yes, the drives were attached to the PERC4 in both configurations.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    42. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by swillden · · Score: 1

      Even if you have a UPS your power supply can still flip out.

      If you're building something intended to be reliable, you should be using a machine with redundant power supplies.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    43. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by swillden · · Score: 1

      Buffering ordered writes in volatile RAM that were supposed to be committed is not an option.

      Well, if you constrain the problem space sufficiently, and in the right way, then of course battery-backed HW RAID is the best option. No one has claimed that HW RAID never makes sense.

      However, for all of the other cases, SW RAID is cheaper, more recoverable, and at least as fast.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    44. Re:Why not just use TrueCrypt? by e4m · · Score: 1

      No. It seems to being doing more than just basic entropy. ent reports that sparse TC volumes are not random, yet TCHunt finds them.

  11. Pardon my ignorance by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2, Interesting

    but has it been pretty well established that there are no significant backdoors, or backdoor techniques, related to the existing AES algorithms? I.e., 128 and 256?

    What good would hardware encryption be unless we were pretty well assured that even the NSA would be stymied?

    It is not a matter of doing anything illegal, of course, but encryption is encryption. If there are reasonable methods available to break it, then it ain't.

    1. Re:Pardon my ignorance by Eric+Smith · · Score: 5, Insightful
      The main risk isn't with weaknesses or back doors in AES, even though it's possible that there is an as-yet-unrecognized weakness.

      The risk is that the drive may, unbeknownst to the owner, cache and store the encryption keys somewhere inside the drive, either on the media or in nonvolatile memory, making it available to those that know where to find it.

      Even if the standard drive firmware doesn't do that, how would you know that the firmware of the drive wasn't modified sometime after manufacture and before purchase to install such a back door?

      If you were an agent of some government that wanted to be able to access data on disk drives whose owners believe them to be encrypted, what better way to do that than to either convince the drive vendors to install a back door for you, or to let you tamper with the drives at some point in the process? That would eliminate a whole lot of hassle for you, and there are only a few drive vendors you'd have to subvert.

      I think I'll stick to LUKS and dm-crypt. It's not a perfect solution, and it's still possible that someone could subvert my encryption, but doing it in the software I have some measure of control over clearly makes it harder for them than doing it in hardware that I have no choice but to trust blindly.

      Am I paranoid? Sure. Probably no one is trying to steal my keys or my data. But the likelyhood of the existence of a back door has NOTHING to do with whether the bad guys (or maybe the good guys?) are interested in my data. Even if no one intends to steal my data today, once a back door exists it can be used against me in the future.

    2. Re:Pardon my ignorance by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Those are certainly risks that I had not considered in advance. Encryption is obviously worthless if it can effectively be bypassed. I have made that point myself in other contexts (DRM), but didn't think about it in this case.

      I don't know LUKS but TrueCrypt has been as solid as anything, and I really don't need full-partition encryption anyway which seems to be a weak point in this field. At least with TrueCrypt, they generally have to guess even what algorithm(s) you used.

    3. Re:Pardon my ignorance by dfn_deux · · Score: 1

      TrueCrypt suffers from much of the same blackbox behavior as the parent post explains with regards to this hardware encryption scheme. Open, Free, software based encryption is more secure in that it is open to analysis every step along the way, however it suffers from a different set of potential pitfalls that go along with crowd sourced designed by committee software. I'd choose the more open solution personally, but just because you have the source code doesn't mean that you or any other interested party has properly validated it against potential flaws in the implementation of even the most mathematically sound encryption. You all remember the recent fiasco with ssh key generation on debian based distros I'm sure.

      --
      -*The above statement is printed entirely on recycled electrons*-
    4. Re:Pardon my ignorance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Part of the review process that was used to designate Rijndael as AES was a public review period in which it was subjected to cryptanalysis by hackers like Bruce Schneier (many of whom, like BS, were motivated by the fact that they had their own horses in the race). Nothing of the like was reported. (Note that AES is a known algorithm, not closed source - though I don't know if it's OSS). If there's a backdoor, it ain't a trivial one. Crypto is always an arms race, but AES should be good for the maximum usable life of the drive: but no guarantees.

    5. Re:Pardon my ignorance by mcrbids · · Score: 1

      It's almost a certainty that HDDs keys are being sent to deh gubbmint, allowing them to read data that nobody else can. Making whole-disk encryption easily available, however, still provides a security benefit since in most cases, companies want to prevent the stupid breaches that you hear about incessantly: >9000 credit card numbers were found to be compromized today when l33t megacorp exec's laptop was lost...

      In these cases, the use of encryption prevents them from having to say: "Aw shucks, geez, we're so, like sorry, you know!" to all their >9000 customers. My company's client-based software application uses a natively encrypted file format tied to the user's password to provide this level of security.

      However, if you are truly paranoid, you can run your own software encryption on top of the hardware encryption.

      Remember, if security were a data field, it wouldn't be a boolean value, it would be a real number. It's a scale and even things like obscurity provide some security benefit. Putting stuff into a public web folder that's undisclosed, that has no index file, and doesn't index directories is *better* than putting it into a disclosed folder, with directory indexing on. In this case, obscurity works something like a password: you have to know the exact full path of the file to view it. While not the best, it does provide some security benefit.

      You don't want to *trust* obscurity, but even strong encryption is simply an extreme form of obscurity. (EG: you have to know the exact passphrase to view it) It's just a matter of degree.

      --
      I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    6. Re:Pardon my ignorance by Eric+Smith · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Remember, if security were a data field, it wouldn't be a boolean value, it would be a real number.

      Yes. But even more important to bear in mind is Bruce Schneier's admonition that security is a process, not a product. Far too many people will buy these FDE disk drives, and then blindly assume that since they have bought "security", don't have to do anything else, and that their problem is solved.

      That's not a criticism of FDE; it happens with every kind of security-related hardware and software. However, the more security products people buy, the more likely they are to get lulled into thinking that it's a solved problem.

    7. Re:Pardon my ignorance by horza · · Score: 1

      A lot of flaws are in the implementation rather than the algorithm, though there could be one in that too. Given track record, it is safe to say there will be a back door that enables the NSA to access it. I assume the hard drive manufacturers will have their firmware 'checked' for flaws, or in fact provided with a certified 'standard library', which will contain it. The question is whether it is computationally hard, meaning NSA resources to crack it. In which case it's still worth having against casual theft.

      Encryption - the art of making accessing the material more expensive that the material being accessed is worth.

      Phillip.

  12. I bet they'll ALL have major backdoors built in! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I bet they'll ALL have major backdoors built in!

    Question: what are the SPECIFICATIONS for this, anyway? I've heard enough about drive resident crypto to be worried about things like secret specifications / implementations geared toward industries like DRM providers to help them "hide" / access control content on your OWN hard drive at the hardware level, backdoors, et. al.
    q.v.
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/01/10/everything_you_ever_wanted/

    Presumably this AES implementation is different than the CPRM related link above, but it is moot if AES is considered secure / auditable of the details of how the drive itself stores / uses the secret key are not well assured. If the drive encrypts / decrypts the data onboard, it must have an API to receive and control the secret key and encryption parameters. Nothing at all would prevent a malicious implementation from keeping a copy of the secret key in FLASH or on a hidden spot on the disc surface or whatever. Full disclosure of the data encryption algorithms / keying scheme and an independent host software means to read the *encrypted* disc blocks and (in host software) duplicate the crypto algorithms would permit the host to be (somewhat) assured that the "on disc" data blocks were even being stored encrypted with the expected algorithms / formats. Although malicious firmware could simply read actually unencrypted data on the disc and encrypt it "as expected" for an auditing readback if it wanted to fool the reader. As long as the data surfaces are "black boxes" accessible only via this "black box" storage controller we really have no idea WHAT it is doing in a proper and trustworthy fashion.

    Why would anyone really trust encryption done by a such "black box" piece of commodity hardware?

    The temptation on the part of manufacturers is too great to have sloppy / weak / backdoored implementations due to pressures from sources like oppressive / intrusive governments, data recovery concerns / options for industry, et. al.

    All the GSM phones have been intentionally weakened in their "security through obscurity" crypto algorithms to permit snooping. Even if there are "somewhat potentially secure" algorithms available for GSM, IIRC it has been established that they intentionally misuse them via keying / option choices to weaken the result and permit easy disclosure of the traffic if the operator / government desires. Intentionally or unintentionally the security of a lot of DECT telecom gear has basically been rendered moot due to bad design according to recent /. articles. Companies that get their security systems hacked (e.g. that recent mass transit / crypto card situation) would rather sue to quiet the news about the insecurity rather than be humbled / shamed and make a properly secure system.

    Weren't several prominent secure USB / "secure disc drive" vendors exposed and found out to be using basically no actually useful security even the ones that claimed to be using AES actually WEREN'T in any useful manner encrypting anything?

    Look at seagate in the news.. they practically have to be having millions of drives turning into dead bricks in a very public scandal before they'll even ADMIT they have a firmware problem and issue a firmware update to fix the problem. Is this the sort of company you want to TRUST to proactively audit / update crypto algorithms and systems whenever there's the slightest vulnerability found (I assume key disclosure / loss / data corruption vulnerabilities are most likely rather than failure to implement AES itself properly)?

    What "consumer level" hardware actually DOES have effective security through cryptography using openly available / auditable algorithms and specifications? Next to nothing? GSM SIM cards -- intentionally weak, non-public algorithms / implementation parameters. "Smart cards" -- very often secret algorithms and / or critical implementation details are used to prevent p

  13. Security you cant verify is useless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is useless and insecure.

    Can I please get the sourceode to the firmware and verify it and then build a new set of firmware to use on the device?
    I mean, I want to make sure there isnt any funny backdoors and stuff.

    I cant? Well, No problem. Ill just continue to use the one I am already using then.

    Security vithouth being able to verify it is useless. CryptoAG told us that.

  14. that is true, Defective by Design. by twitter · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I thought this kind of talk was over the top, then I read the article.

    The specifications enable support for strong access control and, once set at the management level, the encryption cannot be turned off by end-users. ... it can't be brought back up and read without first giving a cryptographically-strong password. If you don't have that, it's a brick. You can't even sell it on eBay."

    No reset so that you can repartion the thing? Users are supposed to trust the hardware won't betray them? No way. It's like they are trying to clog landfills with these things.

    The whole article reeks of "trusted path" and other defective by design tech beyond the obvious "oops, I forgot the password" inevitability. To be trusted by sane users, the controller boards must come with easy to change free software doing the dirty work. If not, all sorts of malicious features can be hidden that negate all benefits of hardware encryption. These things could turn themselves if "premium" content is ever placed on the drive and then accessed with a "non trusted" OS, for example. Your data is never secure when you use non free software, it is always at the mercy of the software's owner. This kind of "firmware" is something that should be rejected.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

    1. Re:that is true, Defective by Design. by palegray.net · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I sincerely hope this post isn't being modded "-1" simply because is belongs to Twitter. In this case, he's absolutely right. Why the hell would you trust a third party to provide trusted firmware code that manages crypto keys for your organization without access to the source that makes up said firmware? You would be an absolute idiot to take this path, and probably accused of criminal negligence should improper data disclosure ever reach the point where a federal prosecutor got involved in a case where the data in question "Really Mattered."

    2. Re:that is true, Defective by Design. by Lucky_Norseman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What prevents a trojan from turning on encryption "at management level" thus holding all your data hostage until you pay up for the key?

    3. Re:that is true, Defective by Design. by hairyfeet · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As much as I hate to say this, don't mod him down simply because he is twitter, because in this case he has a point. Why would you trust some large corporation not to hand the keys over to any government upon request? Why would you trust them not to have a back door installed, if for no other reason than to save on support costs when the "dee dee dees" lose their keys and call tech support? And if there is one place I would WANT the source code available it would be crypto. There are plenty of FOSS encryption programs out there where crypto experts have gone over the code with a fine tooth comb looking for weaknesses, simply for no other reason than they themselves use it. But I am supposed to ignore all that work for this stuff cooked up by three mega corps and with no source code and just a "trust us" that there isn't a back door?

      So while you may not like twitter and his "M$" rants(please use MSFT twitter, the M$ thing is annoying) I'm afraid he has a very good point here. We have seen absolutely NO reason why we should trust this, and we have every reason not to. And when it comes to keeping important data secure from prying eyes I want to see the code. While I myself won't be able to make heads or tails of it I'm sure that there are plenty of crypto guys than can and will. So for me no source equals use Truecrypt. At least I know it doesn't have built in back doors.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    4. Re:that is true, Defective by Design. by AlecC · · Score: 5, Informative

      If you read further down, it says you can do a global reset, which loses the key and unlocks the disk as full of encrypted garbage, "with a few keystrokes".

      --
      Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
    5. Re:that is true, Defective by Design. by jggimi · · Score: 1

      What prevents a trojan from turning on...

      I recall that when the ATA security features were added to the ATA standard, it included the Security Freeze command. The command disables access to the security features -- passwords and data security erasure -- until the drive is power cycled. The intent is to disable attacks on ATA security from within a compromized OS.

      Normal operations allow ATA security commands -- setting passwords, conducting erasure -- to be executed by the operator from within the BIOS console prior to boot. And such BIOS features are commonly available on laptops.

      It is my understanding that modern OSes which are follow the ATA standards will issue the security freeze during hardware probe. At least, my *BSD systems do, and I've seen indications that even Windows does.

    6. Re:that is true, Defective by Design. by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 1

      You would be an absolute idiot to take this path, and probably accused of criminal negligence should improper data disclosure ever reach the point where a federal prosecutor got involved in a case where the data in question "Really Mattered."

      Warmer... warmer... warmer...

      Who would find this an appealing alternative to the status quo?

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    7. Re:that is true, Defective by Design. by billcopc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think they're basically modernizing the old ATA security lockout, as made popular by the original Xbox. I do agree it's rather domineering to not include a "clear password" option. Sure, you'll lose the encryption key and the data is lost, but I'd much rather have a blank drive than a bricked one. This sort of draconian "security" is a sysadmin's nightmare, as now you can't just reimage a drive any old way, you have to reimage it in the target PC. If that board dies (as Dell/HP machines just love to do), you have to toss out the drive. You can't boot it elsewhere :P It will result in a few more hard drive sales at a hefty premium, but the benefit to end-users and their employers is hugely trumped by the nuisance caused by this "feature".

      And twitter, take a chill pill with your open-source FUD. You're making us all look like religious fanatics. FOSS is about choice, not war.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    8. Re:that is true, Defective by Design. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you forget/don't have the password, you can use the drives, but you'll lose all the data when doing it. The encryption is always active on these drives using an internal key. What is really activated when you "enable encryption" is setting a password on the drive (which is different from the encryption key). You can reprovision the drives, which will get rid of the password protection, but it also changes the internal key, so all your old data is scrambled and unrecoverable.

    9. Re:that is true, Defective by Design. by adolf · · Score: 2, Informative

      It is my understanding that modern OSes which are follow the ATA standards will issue the security freeze during hardware probe. At least, my *BSD systems do, and I've seen indications that even Windows does.

      This doesn't matter. I've seen my share of odd virii living inside of the boot sector.

      A particularly clever virus or trojan could even go forth and re-write the BIOS to disable the "security freeze" function you speak of. It sounds far-fetched, until you realize that BIOS code is generally written in assembly, is generally unprotected, generally doesn't change much over time as systems evolve, and generally has some free space available for extra code. Such a hack would be easy for a weekend video game cracker to create.

      I, for one, don't like this spec one bit.

    10. Re:that is true, Defective by Design. by Eravnrekaree · · Score: 1

      I certainly do agree. It makes me quite angry and there are all sorts of malicious ways this thing could be used. It could be used by hardware/companies/media companies etc to deny your rights to the material on your own drive. Its not even necessary because encryption can be done by the software which the user can control and make it work the way they want it to. The way this is built into hardware puts it more out of user control which makes it eisier for malicious people like MPAA, who I believe are a greater threat to our security than any cracker, to abuse it and use it against users.

      It makes me mad if I have to pay extra for all of this encryption circuitry for something i dont want, and wont use, because I prefer software encryption.

    11. Re:that is true, Defective by Design. by dedazo · · Score: 1

      You realize that he added you to his "people who hate me, free software and Slashdot because they don't say enough bad things about M$" list, right?

      If you're not careful, he'll do a full write-up on you.

      There are several reasons why people might be modding him down regardless of what he's saying - and yes, even I will admit he actually has a point in this case. But you do reap what you sow, eventually.

      --
      Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
    12. Re:that is true, Defective by Design. by horza · · Score: 1

      billcopc, it is you spreading the FUD in this case. As AlecC points out above, the article clearly states this is NOT the case. FTA:
      IT departments will also be able to repurpose drives using the encryption standard by cryptographically erasing them with a few keystrokes.

      Also there is nothing that indicates that the drive will be locked to any external device, the key is held on the drive itself. Hence you should be able to unplug and plug into any other machine without any problem.

      Phillip.

    13. Re:that is true, Defective by Design. by horza · · Score: 1

      The parent post is wrong on so many levels it's hard to know where to start. First of all how can any company deny the rights to the material on your own drive? Or since it's whole disc encryption, the question should actually be: how can any company lock you out completely from your new hard drive? The MPAA would not be able to do this.

      As for preferring software encryption over "encryption circuitry", it IS software encryption but put into firmware on the drive. The fact it's standardised means that Linux only needs to write one driver to an open spec for full Linux support.

      With the encryption on the drive you are freeing up the CPU. You can add a second layer of software encryption onto your drive for especially sensitive material, but don't forget that the hardware encryption protects your swap partition which your software encryption probably doesn't.

      Phillip.

    14. Re:that is true, Defective by Design. by Lord+Ender · · Score: 0, Troll

      Get out of your mom's basement and work in real IT.

      It is incredibly important for IT departments to be able to encrypt users' data. It is also important that those companies can prevent users from disabling the crypto.

      And making the drives valueless to thieves? That's just icing on the cake.

      This is good stuff.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    15. Re:that is true, Defective by Design. by Lord+Ender · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's a meaningless question. A trojan can encrypt using software or hardware. This technology doesn't make any difference to trojans whatsoever. Your data is just as encrypted.

      This is why the word "owned" is used when a trojan takes over. It can do anything it wants with your data.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    16. Re:that is true, Defective by Design. by Sancho · · Score: 1

      A particularly clever virus or trojan could even go forth and re-write the BIOS to disable the "security freeze" function you speak of.

      A particularly clever virus could encrypt your data secretly, anyway. In fact, it's already been done.

      Well-written encryption at the firmware level is a good thing. Unfortunately, I don't agree with a design that doesn't let you perform a low-level format of the drive if you forget the password. My guess, though, is that the eBay comment is not accurate. It probably comes from the fact that people have sold drives containing sensitive information on eBay in the past--with this type of encryption, that will no longer be a problem.

    17. Re:that is true, Defective by Design. by danw5k1 · · Score: 1

      GP is not wrong. It's all part of trusted path computing.

      The bios can enable or disable the encryption to the disk.

      The bios can refuse to decrypt the disk if a non-approved OS is loaded.

      Windows in "approved" and downloads a movie, but won't let you copy it to anything other than an encrypted drive.

      There's no way to use the disk in another machine, there's no way to pull "protected" data off the disk.

      Game over.

      It's not a big deal if you don't need/want the disk encryption, but it'll certainly be annoying if *other* hardware disables when running a non-trusted os.

    18. Re:that is true, Defective by Design. by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      Such a hack would be easy for a weekend video game cracker to create.

      I, for one, don't like this spec one bit.

      They'd have to do that for each Bios though. You're need to decompress the Bios (Bios specific algorithm), find the ATA code, patch it, fix any checksums, recompress the Bios and then reflash it.

      Reflashing is tricky to do on an arbitary machine too because you need to do it for chipset - the flash chip programming algorithm depends on the flash chip used and the io ports to turn on Vpp are depend on motherboard chipset.

      And if people started to do that, the motherboard vendors would just build in some sort of anti reprogramming protection. Not hard to do really, you just make sure that Vpp, the flash programming voltage, is turned off until some motherboard model specific password is written to a hardware register. Or the Bios vendors could have a secure Bios where some code in an OTP (One time programmable flash block) could decompress code from reprogammable flash blocks and verify a signature before starting it. This is a hard thing to hack. The trusted code contains a public key and knows how to verify a signature. The private key used to generate a signature is kept secret by the motherboard vendor.

      Now it's not really clear how secure various Bioses are. Some desktop motherboards have hardware jumpers to disable Vpp in hardware. I don't know of any laptops that do this, but the chipset might implement security.

      Actually there's a deeper problem. The chipset is designed to allow you to use one physical flash chip for both the system and video Bios. Each motherboard ODM probably does the packing in a slightly different way. Hell, if they just pack one image after another and the images are different sizes depending on version, you'd need to figure that out too. You could work out which bits of flash are system bios and which are video by reading the chipset registers of course, but then you'd have to write code for all possible chipsets.

      Seriously, this is much harder than you think, even if there is absolutely no security implemented. The fundamental problem is that writing to the Bios is not standardised. The motherboard ODM will take a Bios from Award or Phoenix as a developers kit which is a mixture of source and object code, add some code from the chipset vendor to initialize the chipset, do the same thing with the video Bios code from the GPU vendor, and build an image from that. They'll also write a Bios flasher utility. E.g. the Asus one won't work on a Acer. Hell the Asus one might be model specific too. ODMs will change flash chip vendor every so often if they can strike a good deal.

      Each combination of laptop model, Bios version, chipset, flash chip and ODM is a different test case.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    19. Re:that is true, Defective by Design. by adolf · · Score: 1

      Maybe I'm trivializing this, but:

      How many versions of awdflash.exe do you suppose there really are?

      And:

      It's not hard to decompress BIOS (if it is in fact compressed in ROM to begin with, which doesn't seem likely): All you have to do is execute it.

      Then you just look for the bytes that inform the CPU to instruct the ATA drive to avoid being sabotaged. It doesn't matter where they are in the BIOS. Make this JMP somewhere else where code has been inserted which can set up drive encryption, or replace the string with something which does nothing. IIRC, there's empty areas in a modern BIOS reserved for things like this, for add-in etherboot ROMs and such.

      Recompress (again: is this really necessary?), flash, done. That Asus's flash utility might not work on an Acer doesn't mean that they're not performing exactly the same instructions to accomplish the actual flashing process.

      Remember, it does not have to operate perfectly. If this simple procedure bricks 25% of machines, has no effect on 50% of machines, and successfully locks down the remaining 25% of machines with an unknown AES key and a ransom note, then it's working quite well enough.

    20. Re:that is true, Defective by Design. by Alsee · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There is a bit of a difference.

      In the standard current case you would need to read-encrypt-rewrite all several hundred gigs of the drive. I would guesstimate that would probably take over an hour to complete. If you realize something is wrong you could simply hit the power button and nearly all of your data will still be retrievable.

      With this system all of the data is encrypted. If I'm understanding the system correctly the owner is forbidden to know his encryption key. The system maintains a list of access profiles, you enter your password linked to your access profile, and then the drive internally generates or accesses the actual encryption key. Malware could potentially create do something like creating new access profile locked to some new password, and then delete or reset your access profile. That would involve only a few dozen bytes of data, and it would be completed almost instantaneously. All of your data is effectively destroyed instantaneously, unless you can get the unlock code from the attacker.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    21. Re:that is true, Defective by Design. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I sincerely hope this post isn't being modded "-1" simply because is belongs to Twitter.

      Personally, I think someone who has been caught repeatedly using sock puppets to promote his own shouldn't be modded down, but banned for life.

    22. Re:that is true, Defective by Design. by palegray.net · · Score: 1

      It is agreed that his puppetry is bizarre and intensely annoying, but it doesn't mean he's wrong all the time.

    23. Re:that is true, Defective by Design. by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      Bios do decompress themselves, at least for the menus. Maybe the SATA locking code would be uncompressed, I'm not sure.

      I still think you're underestimating the complexity of finding the code in the Bios and patching it. A human could do it, automating the process is not so trivial. There are after all a lot of ways to send a command to a drive, even a drive one one interface (there are two at the moment, AHCI for native SATA and ATA for IDE and SATA in emulation mode). If you asked two people to do it, they would each produce slightly different code and hacking it out would require a different set of bytes being patched.

      If you just scan for the command byte, you'd probably get a lot of hits. Change 'em all and you'll brick the machine.

      Awdflash is updated regularly, according to this guy

      http://pages.sbcglobal.net/jefn/bootblock.html
      Always ensure that you use the correct version of Awdflash.exe! Phoenix/Award regularly updates Awdflash.exe program to support ever-changing hardware.

      See, all boards with an Award Bios can't be flashed in the exact same way.

      You couldn't use this in malware since you need to boot into Dos.

      Asus have a Bios update tool which runs unders Windows which they make sure works on all their boards

      http://support.asus.com/technicaldocuments/technicaldocuments_content.aspx?no=714

      It's not like all of their boards use the same instructions to do the update though. An update tool needs to have a driver, essentially for each board it supports. That's the reason awdflash and the Windows Bios flash tools often have to be updated when they launch a new board.

      And you have to support AMI Bioses too.

      Actually someone tried this before

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIH#Virus_specifics

      CIH spreads under the Portable Executable file format under Windows 95, Windows 98, and Windows ME. CIH does not spread under Windows NT, Windows 2000, Windows XP or Windows Vista. Non Microsoft operating systems are not affected. CIH infects Portable Executable files by splitting the bulk of its code into small slivers inserted into the inter-section gaps commonly seen in PE files, and writing a small re-assembly routine and table of its own code segments' locations into unused space in the tail of the PE header. This earned CIH another name, "Spacefiller". The size of the virus is around 1 kilobyte, but due to its novel multiple-cavity infection method, infected files do not grow at all. It uses methods of jumping from processor ring 3 to 0 to hook system calls.

      The payload, which is considered extremely dangerous, first involves the virus overwriting the first megabyte (1024KB) of the hard drive with zeroes, beginning at sector 0. This deletes the contents of the partition table, and may cause the machine to hang.

      The second payload tries to write to the Flash BIOS. Due to what may be an unintended feature of this code, BIOSes that can be successfully written to by the virus have critical boot-time code replaced with junk. This routine only works on some machines. Much emphasis has been put on machines with motherboards based on the Intel 430TX chipset, but by far the most important variable in CIH's success in writing to a machine's BIOS is the type of Flash ROM chip in the machine. Different Flash ROM chips (or chip families) have different write-enable routines specific to those chips. CIH makes no attempt to test for the Flash ROM type in its victim machines, and has only one write-enable sequence.

      Note it only worked in 16 bit Windows. Now the 430TX chipset looks like it has the Bios connected to the ISA bus.

      http://www.intel.com/Assets/PDF/datasheet/290562.pdf

      It mentions a hardware write

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    24. Re:that is true, Defective by Design. by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      The only thing in your statement that is meaningful is that the user would be less likely to notice performance problems if his data is being encrypted using the drive's firmware--IF the hypothetical virus is written crudely.

      Well, yeah. But no virus writer would use this new system, because he wants the system to be bootable to deliver his ransom message. So, basically, your entire hypothetical situation is absurd.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    25. Re:that is true, Defective by Design. by Alsee · · Score: 1

      the system to be bootable to deliver his ransom message. So, basically, your entire hypothetical situation is absurd.

      It's not absurd at all - in fact that is exactly what they are designing this new drive system to do. Either a limited boot mode for management, and/or booting the actual operating system and locking you out of your application/data compartments on the drive. They want to enable each application to control its own locked down drive compartment.

      Even without these new drives, Trusted Computing has essentially the same issue. If even a single bit gets flipped in a critical location a certain file(s), the Trust-chip will lock you out of your identity and your applications and data utilizing the Trust system. It's all encrypted, and the chip will refuse to give you any of the crypto-keys locking down your computer.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  15. Tomorrow's headline... by syousef · · Score: 3, Funny

    Universal Disk Encryption Spec Cracked. Available on 0dayz haxx0r b0ardz!!!

    --
    These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
  16. Do STD's make it easier to 'see' encrypted disks? by ivi · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So, do[es any of] these standards make it easier for a gov't or other organization to notice that someone (eg, a journalist) has got his/her data (eg, article, photo's, interview audio, important video clips, etc.) encrypted on a device, ie, as they try to sneak from, say, within a war zone (closed to journalists) back to friendly soil?

    If so, which encryption software (eg, Trucrypt, etc.) - that DOESN'T adhere to standards - will save this journo's life and/or media, in the above situation?

  17. Passwords for harddrives by Britz · · Score: 1

    There was (still is) a possibility to set a password for hdds. It was in the news, because it was not possible to get to the data if you couldn't remember the pw. So it was advised to set it or disable it. Because if a malware got to it first they could set some random password and you would have no access anymore.

  18. Re:Do STD's make it easier to 'see' encrypted disk by jjohnson · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You're kind of missing the point. If our hypothetical journalist is caught crossing a border, the guards won't pull the hard drive and check the make, and then hook it up to their own gear to see if it's encrypted or not. They'll point their AKs at the journo and make him turn his laptop on. If he refuses, they shoot him. If it prompts for a password and he refuses to enter it, they shoot him. If he claims he forgot the password, they'll toss him and his laptop into the back of the truck to send him to the capital to receive 'enhanced interrogation'. No encryption software will save his life. The guards probably won't know or care about encryption.

    If I were that journo, I'd encrypt the files themselves and rename them crash.dump and put them in the Windows directory so I can turn it on, let them scan for jpegs and avis and find nothing, and be sent on my way.

    --
    Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
  19. Well if data isn't encrypted ... by Nicolas+MONNET · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If the password protection is only blocking the drive's firmware, but the data is not encrypted on disk, it's a very weak protection. Someone stealing your disk only has to find a disk of the same model, and exchange the platters.

    1. Re:Well if data isn't encrypted ... by calc · · Score: 1

      As I understand it, at least with the recent Seagate 7200.11 fiasco exchanging the board no longer works on newer hard drives.

    2. Re:Well if data isn't encrypted ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You DO realize it would be a lot easier (i.e., not requiring a "clean room") to just switch the actual controller boards, right? ;)

    3. Re:Well if data isn't encrypted ... by makomk · · Score: 1

      That doesn't work - the password is almost certainly stored on the platters too. (Of course, pretty much all drives seem to offer a way of removing the password without knowing it, given the correct software. Also, all modern drives have a nice serial connection for manufacturer testing and diagnostic purposes, and I think generally this can be used to disable the password too.)

  20. Problems abound... by Vertana · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If someone has Truecrypt on their hard drive and the police raid your house for some server and they take that encrypted drive, there is nothing stopping you from saying, "I forgot my password... oops." But if you trust the hardware, then what stops the police from going after that hard drive manufacturer and putting the legal pressure on them to provide a back entrance and/or technical help? The idea that the government won't put a legal squeeze on the hard drive manufacturer the second they think they've come upon a child pornography/warez/other horrible illegal things seems absurd to me. I understand that manufacturers of things like flash drives and such have had hardware encryption before, but it hasn't been widespread and mainstream. When you throw in the "average citizen" factor, I think we'll see all kinds of challenges and laws spring up.

    -- And as always IANAL, but I do read Slashdot!!

    --
    "The best way to accelerate a Macintosh is at 9.8m/sec^2" -Marcus Dolengo
    1. Re:Problems abound... by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 2, Informative

      That was called 'Trusted Computing', and formerly it was called 'Palladium'. It's a toolkit built into some modern motherboards to do robust encryption, and authentication, and most especially DRM. And Microsoft planned to be the root authority for signing and issuing keys, and storing the private keys "for recovery and law enforcement purposes".

      Be very, very frightened of any such approach of storing centralized keys.

    2. Re:Problems abound... by hairyfeet · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You want to know how the child pr0n guys get away with it? I know that I will probably get flamed for bringing this up, but out of curiosity I asked a buddy I was going to school with that worked in the state crime lab how come all we ever see on the news is these morons in their basements looking at child pr0n instead of the rings that are actually making the crap. According to him it is because the actual producers don't make this garbage and then post it to forums where they can be traced. By the time it is posted to some forum it has aready passed through so many hands as to be untraceable. Instead they use the mail of all things!

      According to him once you are "in" the group everything is passed by encrypted DVDs. He said they have busted guys in the past which they knew were part of a network, but because nearly all their "product" was so heavily encrypted they could only bust them for the product unencrypted on the HDD and for the kids they molested. And since they are already looking at 400+ years getting them to cough up the keys or name names? Yeah right.

      So if you want to know how the child pr0n rings can operate for ages while they bust some guy diddling in his basement to the crap that has been floating around the net for 20 years, that is why. They aren't going to trust HD firmware based crypto anymore than we are. After all they are looking at 100s of years in the pen and so have a VERY good reason to go overboard with the crypto.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    3. Re:Problems abound... by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      In the UK, "Oops, I forgot the password" means two years in jail (five for terrorist or paedophilia related investigations).

      That's one reason.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    4. Re:Problems abound... by ACMENEWSLLC · · Score: 1

      We have people with password protected documents. These people leave and their replacements need the password.

      We have several brute force tools at our disposal to unlock these documents. We throw this on our VMWare cluster and let it run until it finds the password.

      The government has at it's disposal some of the worlds fastest computers. Leaps and bounds quicker than anything consumers have.

      If they can get your files, they can brute force the encryption open. The weakest link is your password. They can open your encryption very quickly if you have anything less than; a password with upper and lower case, numbers, special symbols, and super long. Most people use quickly reversed passwords, at least from experience in the hundreds I've had to brute open. What's to stop the FBI from breaking into your home, hiding a camera over your keyboard, and watching you type the password?

      And while these drives try to solve that issue by toasting themselves if you enter the wrong password too often, nothing stops the government from tweaking the firmware so that it doesn't toast it for them. Drive recovery firms can take the platters out of a drive and put it in another drive to recover data. Even if there is some key unique to the drive that ties to the platters to try and address this issue (doubt it) that key has to be stored somewhere.

      Encryption is a great thing. It makes it more difficult to get data. This is great to address the issue of lost drives that end up in the wrong hands such as laptops with credit card information. The average thief is not going to be able to get the data. He will replace the drive, sell it, and move on. This does nothing to hide things from the federal government.

       

    5. Re:Problems abound... by eth1 · · Score: 1

      There's nothing stopping you from using additional encryption on top of the encrypted drives for something you want to hide from the authorities if you're worried about some sort of key escrow. However the encrypted drives would at least keep your bum covered if your laptop is stolen (which is far more likely).

    6. Re:Problems abound... by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      compromised physical security invalidates all other security. As you have said, they could install a camera or bug your keyboard or use TEMPEST or any number of other techniques. Those of us who use these tools are seeking strong protection and we know that when individual citizens are singled out for special attention by a government there are practical limits to any sort of protection, but that does not diminish the fact that proper cryptography properly used provides substantial security or at least as good as it gets for the individual citizen.

  21. No thank you. by palegray.net · · Score: 1
    From the article:

    ... can be used across all hard disk drives, solid state drives (SSD) and encryption key management applications ...

    I'm supposed to trust my crypto keys to a third party? What particular dealer do they think is supposed to supply me with the kind of crack that would cause me to find this acceptable? I didn't write the code that runs their firmware, and I didn't compile anything from their shop either (reference On Trusting Trust by Ken Thompson, circa 1984, for background).

    1. Re:No thank you. by Bronster · · Score: 1

      encryption key management applications...

      I'm supposed to trust my crypto keys to a third party?

      Man, it's all about you, isn't it.

      This sort of shit is _really_ useful in a business, where the business security people have a master key that they can use to recover your data when you forget your password (yet again).

      You might even have a friend or family member that you trust enough to keep a separate key that can read your data if you screw up your passwords or, y'know - DIE. So that your descendants don't lose everything you've ever done because it's locked behind personal encryption. Some legacy that brick is going to be.

    2. Re:No thank you. by palegray.net · · Score: 1

      In what business networking world do end users have direct control over the encryption used on files owned by the company? Man, it's all about setting up your LAN so users can't screw entire departments, isn't it?

    3. Re:No thank you. by Bronster · · Score: 1

      Er, the world where they have full disk encryption enabled on their laptop, and they have a password to access it?

      That's the sort of world where if you had encryption on the drive then a management interface that exposed a way to say "also encrypt all new keys so this public key has access".

  22. Furthur "Edition" Separation by iSzabo · · Score: 2, Informative

    It looks like they're using the "Opal" standard as a way of selling essentially the same hard drive slightly crippled since if you don't have the key for the thing you "can't even sell it on eBay", whereas admins can "cryptographically erase" their data with ease. Does this mean that the well priced one has a one-key no-reselling system, and the artificially inflated "server" class one can be rotated? I'm going to ere on the side of "companies get together in order to hurt us all" and fear the worst.

  23. Put your own encryption on top of the drive's... by thorndt · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Nothing says you can't use Truecrypt or what have you on top of the hardware-based encryption built into the hard drive.

    This way you'll have AT LEAST as much protection as you would've with just your software-based encryption.

    --
    - The race is not [always] to the swift, nor the battle to the strong. -
  24. Why is this a rights issue? by scourfish · · Score: 1

    The idea isn't new. Hard drives already have the ability to lock users out if a code isn't entered correctly; the XBox used this. The paranoid seem to be coming at this from a "Oh no they're gonna lock me out of my own data" type of deal; but the benefits aren't intended to lock your upgrade hardware down to your brand, PC wise (Compaq tried that a long time ago, it didn't work.) An encryption standard could be good. There are plenty of perverts out there, afraid that their friends will discover all of their nasty bestiality fetishes, who would love to be able to encrypt their hard drives. If the standard is open, then it would be a lot easier for them to swap their drives filled with illegal horse and furry porn into a new computer.

  25. Re:Do STD's make it easier to 'see' encrypted disk by Eivind · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This use-case is more or less dying out though. Because transporting bits across a border by having someone hand-carry them is just too large a risk, assuming it's the kind of bits the government of either country would rather not have crossing the border.

    Much better to transmit the bits out, in encrypted form, over some kind of network. Even if there's no internet, you can always do it over satelite-phone or something. Yeah, I know that's like $3/minute, but how many minutes do you need to transmit the ascii-text of an interview or something ?

    It's sligthly more of a problem if it's something largish, particularily if it's HD-video though, but even this problem is going away. Even if you're in Iran, it's not very hard to find an access-point with a megabit or more of capacity.

    There's no question; the safest way to store "dangerous" bits on your laptop while crossing a border, is to NOT store them on there at all. They can't find what is genuinely not there.

  26. last part they needed for completely secure DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They needed to own your hardware at the lowest level before they could implement a DRM based OS that completely controls access to every bit on the computer. And the DCMA guarantees jail time for breaking the encryption on your own hardware to get your own data out.

  27. True Crypt Source by RationalRoot · · Score: 5, Informative

    What' is this then ?

    http://www.truecrypt.org/downloads2.php

    Source Code ?

    I have not compiled it, nor gone through it in detail, but it looks like source code to me.

    D

    --
    http://davesboat.blogspot.com/
    1. Re:True Crypt Source by AusIV · · Score: 3, Informative

      When TrueCrypt released version 5.0, they lacked a 64 bit version. Myself and a couple of others on the Ubuntu forums hacked at the source until we got a 64 bit version to compile and run smoothly. It may not be an OSI approved license, but the source is definitely there for those who want to pick at it.

    2. Re:True Crypt Source by the_other_chewey · · Score: 2, Informative

      What' is this then ?

      http://www.truecrypt.org/downloads2.php

      Source Code ?

      I have not compiled it [...]

      I have. It works.

    3. Re:True Crypt Source by tobiasly · · Score: 0, Troll

      If you read the post, he doesn't say that source isn't publicly available, he says there are no change logs or version-control comments available. Simply releasing a tarball of the source code goes against the spirit of most OSS projects, because it doesn't allow others to easily see what changes were made, when they were made, and why.

  28. And use ROT 13 for good measure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That will throw them... heck, do it once more to be doubly sure...

  29. In other words... by The+Real+Tachyon · · Score: 1

    All this sounds like to me is that enough governments finally agreed on a standard that they want the HD manufacturers to use. I would say this is about the point where the tech industry is getting into bed with government like the telecom industry did back in it's day.
    Trusted computing platform. Built in, black box hard drive encryption. And with the recent 'bogus Chinese Cisco routers that might have enemy sniffing capabilities' scare I'm sure routers and other core Internet architecture are in the process too.
    In my mind this is the real reason to push open source. For protection from a police state as much as protection of free choice.
    It gives good reason why things like Asterisk, Vayatta, Linux/BSD, etc. are important and why we need them to have significant market share in core communications areas to insure initiatives like those I mentioned don't become defacto standards.
    IMO anyway....

  30. A few comments... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here are some comments that may not be obvious from the story.

    (1) While all of the HDD vendors have been involved with the spec, not all HDD vendors have agreed to the TCG version yet. That is, the Opal spec was approved, but there is also an approved Enterprise spec that could be used (previously, Enterprise was targeted only at RAID servers, but the spec is applicable to laptops & desktops). In other words, there may still be some fracturing within the industry until the final standard is selected.

    (2) Microsoft, who typically is very involved with drivers and application support for standardized HW, is notably absent from the article

    (3) Microsoft is driving a related spec under the IEEE-1667 umbrella, which does not current include encryption, but does include the ability to handle access control (credentials).

    (4) Pre-boot authentication is not currently supported by BIOSes or widely by ISVs (e.g. Wave). There's still a lot of work to do here.

    (5) Compliance testing is still not completed by the TCG, and therefore, current implementations toward the existing spec likely vary.

    Also, for those who are wondering if there are backdoors to these solutions. Note the following:

    (a) The first HDD encryption solutions may or may not have back doors. It's obviously not in the TCG spec, but the TCG spec does not specifically prevent a HDD manufacturer from adding other firmware to create a backdoor for them or uncle sam (no such agencies).

    (b) Once HDD encryption solutions hit the streets, hackers will likely attack the products and find weaknesses. The community will, in turn, reveal the relative strengths of these solutions.

    (c) Mid to long term, the HDD encryption drives will likely be requested to be FIPS certified, which is under NIST. FIPS 140-2 or 140-3 requires a lab to review both the hardware and firmware designs in order to gain compliance (i.e. check for security holes and backdoors). FIPS testing will go a long way to confirm the quality of these FDE solutions.

    Cheers

  31. Yes this is all true by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

    but in the end what it amounts to is trust. In general today, I would trust a private supplier of free software (that has been thoroughly examined in broad daylight by experts in the field), even if it is "proprietary", over something supplied by my government. Simply because in the case of the government, there is strong motivation to "fudge" things a little.

    Obviously (though some companies still don't get this), "security through obscurity" is a waste of everybody's time. TrueCrypt, while not "open source", has still been willing to put up with open examination, and in fact has challenged people to break its security. I believe its credibility is pretty high. Which does not prove anything, of course.

    1. Re:Yes this is all true by hairyfeet · · Score: 1, Informative

      Uuuhhh.....Maybe I missed something here, but how exactly is TrueCrypt Not "open source"? When I pick downloads at the bottom of the page it has a nice link that says source code, which you click and it take you to this page which says, and I quote "The complete source code (in C, C++ and assembly) of the latest stable version of TrueCrypt.". So how exactly are they NOT open source? And as many folks out there that use TrueCrypt and as many security experts that recommend it I am sure that the source code has been looked over with a fine tooth comb, if for no other reason than those that would like to brag "I found a hole!". So maybe I am missing something here, but I always thought Open Source meant anyone could download the source files and check the code. Is it fake code or something?

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    2. Re:Yes this is all true by sabt-pestnu · · Score: 1

      I agree, it meets the definition of Open Source, in that you can compile it yourself.

      That in itself does not make it secure, though. Particularly, while I can read C++, I know little of encryption algorithms. I could check for buffer overflows easy enough. But I wouldn't necessarily know that some particular operation made a crypto routine crackable in N time instead on e^N time.

      And that's if I took the time to run over the entire code base.

      Having not followed your link, I am only assuming that the code base consists of C, C++ and assembly in various amounts. If it was describing 3 separate versions of the code, I'd pass out popcorn for folks watching the ones trying to read and understand the assembly version. (It'd probably be permanent job security, that.)

    3. Re:Yes this is all true by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      From the way I read it the program appears to use ASM for the low level "hooks" and the C and C++ for the higher stuff. And while I agree that it is pretty heady stuff, that doesn't make it any less open source, does it? I mean, lets be honest here, how many of us actually CAN understand that deep low level crypto stuff. Hell I don't even see how kernel developers get all that hardware to play nice with each other without blowing a blood vessel!

      But as a lifelong Windows guy I can say that one of the things I like the most about the FOSS out there is that I don't HAVE to be an expert on stuff like low level crypto to know that it works. Why? Because there are plenty of guys using TrueCrypt that ARE low level hackers and like to look for leaks and back doors. Which is why we find out things like this weakness which was found in the deniable file system in 5.1a(which I believe they fixed in 6) and which was promptly reported all over the place.

      The nice thing about having source code available is for popular programs like TrueCrypt there are plenty of guys out there looking through it. That doesn't mean they'll want to work on it(see OO.o which I understand is a big mess when it comes to writing code for) but they'll be more than happy to scream bloody murder if they find a security hole or a back door, which is more than we can expect with this software written by major corps. I wouldn't be surprised if they have a "master firmware" controller board that they can swap out the original for, if for no other reason to grant government requests for info and as a nice side business charging $$$$ to "dee dee dees" who lose the keys to the machine they have all the important data on and no recent backups. Then they could always claim that the person hadn't actually activated the "real" encryption, but had simply forgotten their base password. Which would make it sound as innocent as resetting a password in WinXP.

      But until I see source code for the drive with some sort of method to prove what they give me is what is actually running on the drive I would look upon the drive encryption as suspect. After all, if Seagate can't even get a bloody firmware on their own drives to work correctly when they have all that money and PR on the line, would YOU trust them to write a firmware that will hold all your data locked up?

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
  32. You can't by Skapare · · Score: 1

    You can't ever trust what you don't have access to. So you will need to do the encryption yourself, regardless of what else the device does. That's "user trusted encryption" which these devices simply cannot ever offer (unless you build it yourself).

    Oh, and BTW, you can't really trust your CPU, either.

    --
    now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    1. Re:You can't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't buy this "you can't really trust your CPU, either" argument. It supposes some advance malevolence that is able to ferret away data that "looks interesting?" (that's paranoid) Or are you just saying that the CPU might be making mistakes? (this would get noticed pretty quickly).

      On the other hand, a hard drive might store the key somehow, and provide for some capacity to produce the key when provided some master password. This is a very real concern, unlike this CPU paranoia that gets thrown about.

    2. Re:You can't by indi0144 · · Score: 1

      vPro?

  33. Re:Whoosh by pipatron · · Score: 1

    In this case, you seem to be the one without any knowledge. Ask any security expert about something called "security by obscurity" and see if that's a good thing.

    --
    c++; /* this makes c bigger but returns the old value */
  34. How long... by xlsior · · Score: 1

    How long until the first trojan comes along that password-protects your drive for you with a random password, irrevocably locking you out? 'Universal' interfaces can have drawbacks as well.

    This sounds like one of those things that have a few potential nice features, but can also turn into a big can of worms. Good luck explaining to grandma why there's no way she can get any of her files back, even though technically they're still there.

    1. Re:How long... by Ada_Rules · · Score: 1

      How long until the first trojan comes along that password-protects your drive for you with a random password, irrevocably locking you out? 'Universal' interfaces can have drawbacks as well.

      Great, now that you gave them the idea it will only be about 10 minutes. That knock you just heard on your door is from the Department of Homeland Security. :)

      --
      --- Liberty in our Lifetime
  35. They even agreed on the standard key by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

    And the encryption key is standard also, it's:

    f81ce859f77fa8a773d66d538ba7ad3daa1185d8

  36. Short-sighted. by ledow · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How short-sighted is it to tie into one encryption standard? Idiots.

    You need to *at least* make various encryptions pluggable and software-upgradeable because I guarantee that Murphy's Law says that once EVERYONE has one of these hard drive, AES will be cracked sufficiently and we'll be back to square one but tied into millions of devices incorporating a useless and obsolete security "standard. It'll be WEP all over again, even down to 99% of people being "assured" that their hard drive is safe, and then finding out the reality.

    Plus, the DRM potential is obvious. I thought the ATA standard had the facility to implement disk encryption anyway - isn't that one of the features used on the XBox or something to lock the hard drives to a particular machine? - you have to send a password across the bus as an ATA packet before the drive will permit any access at all.

    1. Re:Short-sighted. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      t'll be WEP all over again,

      Please learn what the fuck you're talking about before spouting this drivel.

    2. Re:Short-sighted. by ledow · · Score: 1

      "that once EVERYONE has one of these [Access points], [WEP] will be cracked sufficiently and we'll be back to square one but tied into millions of devices incorporating a useless and obsolete security "standard""

      I don't see how that's drivel or a poor reflection of the WEP situation, it being the shit-heap of an encryption standard that it was. Introduced in 1997, cracked to hell by 2001 - I've had computers that have gone longer than that between reboots. So just as it was put in products, standardised and people were using it, it was a waste of time. And if WEP had incorporated the capacity to negotiate encryption algorithms (like every decent cryptography-based standard out there), it wouldn't have been a problem (WEP cracked? change the underlying encryption / integrity check / number of rounds). I'm not saying that anyone KNEW it was vulnerable when it was published as a standard, but they did know that just about every algorithm gets cracked before long and they should have had a bit more foresight in their standard. In the end, they had to deprecate the standard, prevent it's use in anything serious and propose an alternative standard (requiring alternative hardware, because the replacement that was meant to be used on the same hardware [WPA] has also been similarly reduced to worthless now).

  37. Re:Do STD's make it easier to 'see' encrypted disk by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

    You'd be better off using pagefile.sys than some name you made up. How many cursory glances will pick up you're running your pagefile on a different partition? Or which pagefile is in use?

    --
    Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
  38. Re:Do STD's make it easier to 'see' encrypted disk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Look.

    STD's do a lot of things. Many of them are curable nowadays. But I'm fairly sure that letting you 'see' encrypted discs is not one of their symptoms. I am truly sorry.

    ...or perhaps you meant something other than Sexually Transmitted Diseases?

  39. I'm sure it's been taking care of... by chord.wav · · Score: 1

    ...but you can never be to careful so: Remember to include the CIA backdoor guys! Thanks!

    PS: Tinfoil won't protect you from it!

  40. Re:modo uP by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    The subject of the above article has a valid point. His "expansive area" of expertise may not be directly applicable to the matter being discussed, but I believe that upon cursory glance it's no "stretch" of the imagination to apply the theory to data security, at least in a personal respect. However, upon further "anal"ysis, however, it seems that the "fissure" between the two ideas is too "vast" and would only cause a poorly formed analogy to be used.

    --
    Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
  41. Bullshit. RAID5 is fine in read only file systems. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Read about where the bottlenecks are before suggesting nonsense.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  42. Re:Do STD's make it easier to 'see' encrypted disk by Prof.Phreak · · Score: 1

    They can't find what is genuinely not there.

    If they're properly motivated to find something on you, I'm sure they'll find something on you even if it's not there.

    --

    "If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy

  43. Re:Do STD's make it easier to 'see' encrypted disk by FictionPimp · · Score: 1

    Truecrypt is awesome for this. Full disk encryption plus a hidden encrypted partition.

    You put in one password you get a dummy install you use to trick them. Just a bare bones windows xp with some files on it. You put in the second password and you get your real OS with all your important data.

  44. They've thought about that. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1

    Password. Never. Stored. In. Memory.

    CPU cache turned off when entering password.

    1. Re:They've thought about that. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not likely. They'd have to tie up a couple of cpu registers permanently to not have the keys stored in memory while accessing the disk blocks. They may be able to protect the user entered pass phrase that way, but having the actually keys used for the encryption is good enough to read the data.
      Still cold boot attacks can be mitigated and may not even be an important threat for most people using full partition encryption.

  45. Re:Do STD's make it easier to 'see' encrypted disk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And, of course, you guys are aware that really random data is easy to detect in the middle of not-so-random data, so you need to have a LOT of crap with truly random data around, if you want to hide those core.dumps...

    AND yes, there are programs to search for really random data in files and disk partitions. They're quite handy to locate encripted files and keys.

  46. Twitter sockpuppet, mod down. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    n/t

    1. Re:Twitter sockpuppet, mod down. by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      > Universal Disk Encryption Spec Finalized

      25 minutes later...

      Universal Disk Encryption Cracking Spec Finalized

      Yeah, whatever dudes.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  47. Fakeraid only? No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have a older generation 3ware card here which is just thoroughly trounced by software raid to the point where it acts as a decelerator. It's simply much faster to use the card as a many port controller and Linux kernel software raid.

    Modern general purpose CPUs are deeply memory bandwidth limited, raid5/raid6 computation is nearly free so long as the data is moving through the CPU anyways, likewise for the tiny amount of additional logic required to implement raid.

    Now, that isn't true for another system with a new raid card that has a 1.2GHz(?) processor on it⦠there software raid and the controller tie with the raid controller slightly winning out on the CPU front.

    The two primary ways that raid controllers improves things today is

    (1) that it reduces the I/O bandwidth at the CPU: Raid-1 requires doubling (or more) every write, Raid-5/6 requires reading from every drive each time it writes an incomplete stripe.

    and

    (2) they can feature battery-backed-up write-back cache, so your OS can instantly return a 'write complete' to your application.

    For raid-5/6 point (1) has been made obsolete by new file systems with integrated raid (ZFS and soon BTRFS) as they always perform full stripe writes.

  48. Back doors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And you can bet there will be hidden back doors in the hardware/firmware - in case law enforcement wants to get into your drive. But then, the military and gov't usually have technology that's at least 12 years or more ahead of what's in the public domain, and so. This may be chicken to them. Um, no thanks. I'd rather roll my own.

  49. Re:Do STD's make it easier to 'see' encrypted disk by brusk · · Score: 1

    Not information. If they are trying to find out, for example, which government official revealed secrets to you, if the name isn't on your computer they won't find it. They can make up charges against you, sure, and even plant whatever they want on your hard drive. But it won't get them any closer to finding the leak. In that sense, they truly can't find what isn't there.

    --
    .sig withheld by request
  50. Hardware encryption made e-z by davidwr · · Score: 1

    Firmware stores three very long keys somewhere in the drive in a very strongly encrypted format. It doesn't matter where. Several thousand bits should be enough to protect against conventional attacks for the next 10 years.

    Key #1 gives you read access and is the key used to encrypt the drive.

    Key #2 gives you write access, it's just an access password and doesn't affect the data.

    Key #3 gives you key-management access, , it's just an access password and doesn't affect the data.

    Each key is accessible by a passphrase, with appropriate timeouts, session-negotiation protocols, etc. to prevent spoofing. The drive can also be "locked" to a particular device, subject to unlocking only by use of the key-management key or destroying the keys/resetting the drive. The session-negotiation and other protocols are probably the hard part and those would need to be an industry standard.

    Under certain conditions, including a customer-requested drive reset, case tampering, etc. the drive will destroy all 3 keys, rendering the data irretrievable using conventional techniques.

    By the way, "256 bits should be enough for anyone." Yeah, right.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  51. OTOH, a reason to trust by BenEnglishAtHome · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why would you trust them not to have a back door installed,...

    I'm not as worried about that as some. Here's how I look at it - if there's a back door, it doesn't matter as long as it doesn't get used. If it gets used even a few times, word will get out. When some ring of baby-rapers gets caught and prosecuted with evidence that was obtained through said back door, word *will* get out.

    So what happens then? A million drive purchasers demand their money back. A million businesses that bought the drives because they were guaranteed unbreakable encryption join in class-action lawsuits against the drive manufacturers and resellers, blasting them into legal oblivion.

    If I were a drive manufacturer, I wouldn't risk it. The secret would eventually leak and my company would be toast, overnight.

    1. Re:OTOH, a reason to trust by Directrix1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Nah, the company would probably just make sure that the word doesn't get out. And if it does it would be seen as some whack job on Slashdot who thinks only F/OSS can be trusted. Just so there is no confusion here, I'm one of those whackjobs. Proprietary disk encryption is just a universally dumb idea.

      --
      Occam's razor is the blind faith in the natural selection of least resistance and in universal oversimplification. -- EF
    2. Re:OTOH, a reason to trust by Hatta · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's a nice idea, but about as accurate as the idea that "Banks will self regulate because it's in their best interest". It's already well known that the NSA had a backdoor into Windows encryption, and that doesn't seem to bother anyone.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    3. Re:OTOH, a reason to trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      > The secret would eventually leak and my company would be toast, overnight.

      Even if the government grants them immunity to lawsuits over this?

    4. Re:OTOH, a reason to trust by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      No, this is what judicial gag orders are used for. This evidence would likely be used sparingly in any way it could be leaked into public. More than likely the uses would be to troll for evidence of crimes where they could then look closer and obtain evidence in a more conventional manner.

      Not being able to make lawful use of the evidence does not equate to not being able to use it at all. Additionally, records could be compiled on any group they want should something happen to give them an excuse to go after said group. Just because the US is a constitutional republic now, it may not always be. Those records compiled don't disappear the moment the controls on government actions disappear.

  52. 128-bit -vs- 256-bit by MobyDisk · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Disk vendors are free to choose to use AES 128-bit or AES 256-bit keys depending on the level of security they want"

    More likely, they will choose based on the power of the controller. Nobody would want less security.

    1. Re:128-bit -vs- 256-bit by skeeto · · Score: 1

      Nobody would want less security.

      Two words: diminishing returns.

      Any implementation is a compromise between security and convenience. In general, more security leads to less convenience and vice-versa, with diminishing returns on both ends.

      With no security and absolute convenience, you have a machine that requires no log in (no passwords or permissions) and are easily accessible from anywhere in the world. At the other end with absolute security and no convenience, the machine is so locked down that no one is capable of using it. Real implementations are somewhere in the middle.

      So more security isn't always desired. Adding more locks to your front door will make entering/exiting your home much more time-consuming, but won't be much more effective at keeping out burglars as long as you still have glass windows.

    2. Re:128-bit -vs- 256-bit by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      You took my statement out of context.

  53. Hard Drive encryption has its benefits but. . . by nehumanuscrede · · Score: 1

    . . it also has some pitfalls as well.

    My company laptop runs whole disk encryption on it.
    It's software based so it decrypts the drive on a
    successful login to the main OS.

    Therein also lies the problem.

    In the event the OS goes screwy and doesn't want
    to boot for some reason, you have no way of fixing
    the problem without doing a complete re-image.

    You can't boot your favorite Linux ISO disc and
    drop into the Windows partition and ' fix '
    anything as the entire drive is encrypted. Linux
    doesn't even see the drive as a valid partition.

    You can't decrypt it until it boots, and if it
    doesn't boot you're stuck. Same thing is going
    to apply to the hardware versions. A simple
    glitch will kill everything on your drive.

    I find it more to my liking to encrypt certain
    directories or files instead. This way a soft
    ware glitch ( which is far more common than a
    hardware one ) doesn't kill my entire drive
    leaving me with few ( if any ) options to
    recover it.

  54. Re:Do STD's make it easier to 'see' encrypted disk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It would take a forensic examiner all of 4 seconds to see that it's not a valid pagefile. Then they would be up your ass, as they know you're trying to hide data.

    If you're going to do file name obfuscation, make it look like a binary dump and name if convincingly.

  55. Who is asking for this? by Sloppy · · Score: 1

    Disk firmware is a lame place to put this functionality, compared to the OS. When a bunch of vendors are working on a solution to a problem that no user has, beware. They aren't offering a feature; they are offering us a trojan.

    --
    As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
  56. Re:Do STD's make it easier to 'see' encrypted disk by EnglishTim · · Score: 1

    This use-case is more or less dying out though. Because transporting bits across a border by having someone hand-carry them is just too large a risk, assuming it's the kind of bits the government of either country would rather not have crossing the border.

    Do you think so? It probably depends on how much data you have. I figure it's probably easier to put several gigabytes of data onto a MicroSD card and smuggle it out in the sole of your shoe or under your foreskin or something than upload it from an internet cafe...

  57. Re:Bullshit. RAID5 is fine in read only file syste by amorsen · · Score: 1

    Yes, you can do read only file systems with RAID 5. As long as a disk never fails, because if it does, your performance is gone again while the array rebuilds. All the information on all the disks needs to be read in order to fix the failed disk. RAID 1 needs rebuilding too of course, but if that's a problem, you just add an extra disk or two to the array. You only need to copy one disk, not all of them.

    --
    Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
  58. Re:Do STD's make it easier to 'see' encrypted disk by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

    That is why TrueCrypt includes hidden partitions and the secure OS feature (second OS installed on the hidden partition). That way, when the border guards ask you to enter your password you enter the one for the public OS, the machine boots, and the adversary, the border guard(s) in this case, remain ignorant of the secure OS installed on the hidden partition because of plausible deniability. The TrueCrypt boot loader handles all of this for you automatically depending upon which key is entered (the one for the regular or hidden partition).

  59. Backing up data/Acronis/CloneZilla??? by DrRiAdGeOrN · · Score: 1

    Another problem will be for the IT guys. I have users drives working, but their machines dying till I get a tech here to repair it. This will firmly stop swapping of drives to other machines, cloning their data using a USB/Firewire. I imagine were going to be needing a TCG external hard drive enclosure.

  60. Re:Put your own encryption on top of the drive's.. by pavon · · Score: 1

    Yep, software encryption has it's own set of limitations and vulnerabilities. The methods that I have tried for encrypting swap are all too slow to be usable, especially on Windows. You also have to consider remapped sectors and other factors that make it difficult to delete sensitive data that was accidentally written as plaintext. Using in-drive encryption gives you better general protection for the random sensitive data that finds a way to get into the normally unencrypted portions of the disk, while still using software encryption for known sensitive files. And all without any significant performance loss.

  61. Re:Do STD's make it easier to 'see' encrypted disk by rdebath · · Score: 1

    It's easy to get bits across a border, just make sure you wipe the disk with a secure wiper (dumps randomness on the disk) and reimage it.

    Or that's what you say, for all you know the sysadmin guy put five checksummed mirrors under the randomness, say four and a half left now that the machine has been imaged. Maybe that's the reason he gave you a nice 500Gb drive. He doesn't have to worry about you booting it or using it a bit, he just has to make sure it goes wrong when you get back home ...

    Of course re-imaging is the most reasonable thing in the world to do if the border patrols are known to be ... erm ... aggressive.

  62. Re:Put your own encryption on top of the drive's.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    encryption doesn't work that way.

  63. Re:Do STD's make it easier to 'see' encrypted disk by Eivind · · Score: 1

    Sure. They've got the power. They can pull their gun and shoot you dead for no reason whatsoever, should they be so inclined. Depending on the regime in power, they may or may not even be able to get away with that.

    But nevertheless, if the information genuinely isn't on your laptop, there's nothing they can do to get their hands on that information. Besides, in many situations, transmitting the information rather than transporting it means that you have no need to cross the border at ALL. (well, obviously you will need to do that if you're going in to get it, but not if the information is for example from an informant on the inside)

    I recommend this practice heartily for everyone visiting USA, for example. The border-people claim the right to search anyone, without probable cause, and to refuse entry if they find anything suspicious, it's anyones guess if an encrypted partition to which you refuse to tell the password counts as "suspicious". (my guess would be yes, certainly yes if you have a beard)

    So, much better to go to USA with a naked laptop. You can keep your data online somewhere, you'll still have full access to the data once you're inside USA.

  64. Re:Do STD's make it easier to 'see' encrypted disk by Eivind · · Score: 1

    It does depend on the data. But I do think that the easily accessible bandwith is growing faster than the size of data that needs to be transported secretly across borders, so that it's more and more practical to make the transport by data-transfer rather than carrying physical media.

    There's going to be exceptions for a while, where your data is, and must be, huge, and you're transporting them from a region with very poor bandwith. But I do think the *trend* points towards the extinction of physical-media as a means of data-transport.

    If it's risky data to be carrying, there's still no reason to hand-carry it across the border. If I wanted to get 10GB of unpopular data out of Iran (not completely random example, I've got several close friends in Iran), I'd *never* risk asking any of them to carry it. Rather I'd ask them to encrypt it, store it on a flash-card or something, and mail that card out, putting no return-adress on it, and if extra paranoid, have the card mailed in a different city than the one they live in.

    It's not idiot-proof, but it's hell of a lot better than showing up at the border and hoping for the best.

    If it was only 1GB, yeah, I'd ask them to upload it. Sure, it'd take time, but even by modem, you can upload a gigabyte in about 30 hours. If there was no rush, I'd ask them to do it 50MB a day, spread over 3 weeks. Wouldn't be that suspicious, particularily not if the upload happened to https://www.flickr.com/ https://mail.google.com/ or a similar site where it's non-suspicious to upload 50MB worth of data every now and then.

  65. The key must be available to the CPU. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1

    "... the key is never visible to the CPU at any time..."

    If the CPU is used to decrypt, the key must be available to the CPU. Anything that happens in the CPU must use the registers of the CPU.

    It can be arranged that the password is never seen by the main CPU, but that requires another CPU, which may also have vulnerability.

    At present, it looks as though TrueCrypt is very attractive. It's open source, a necessary quality for encryption methods. Hardware-assisted encryption would not be open source. TrueCrypt can and does use methods of preventing boot-time attacks.

    From the TrueCrypt documentation: "Note that TrueCrypt can encrypt an existing unencrypted system partition/drive in-place while the operating system is running (while the system is being encrypted, you can use your computer as usual without any restrictions)."

    That means that TrueCrypt system partition encryption is available to existing systems, a huge advantage, since any organization has existing systems.

  66. Really short explanation. by gillbates · · Score: 1

    Really short explanation of difference between TrueCrypt and native hard drive encryption: With TC, the laptop's cpu sees the key used for decryption; with native HD encryption, only the microcontroller on the hard drive sees the key - the laptop CPU never sees encrypted data, hence, it doesn't need the key.

    If the hard drive microcontroller computes the key from, say, the hash of the password, then it can store the key in its internal registers, and the key itself never goes across the bus. When the drive is powered down, the key is lost. Hence, you have a securely encrypted drive which cannot be read without the password, and cannot reveal the password to a hacker.

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  67. Three concerns: by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1

    I don't see how this standard can receive wide acceptance. It seems to be designed only for very unusual requirements.

    First, if the main CPU doesn't do the encryption, another CPU of equal speed must be provided. Otherwise the encryption and decryption will be very slow. That means double the power and heat dissipation requirement.

    Second, read this from the ComputerWorld article: "When a USB drive is unplugged, or when a laptop is powered down, or when an administrator pulls a drive from a server, it can't be brought back up and read without first giving a cryptographically-strong password. If you don't have that, it's a brick. You can't even sell it on eBay."

    Does that mean a lost password causes a complete loss of hardware?

    TrueCrypt is FAST. It is FREE. It is OPEN SOURCE.

    Would you trust a hidden encryption system? The U.S. government has established that it can act in secret, and put executives in prison if they don't cooperate. How would you establish that there is no hidden system to decrypt the data?

    Third, read the specifications. They are poorly written.

  68. Hate to belabor the point... by gillbates · · Score: 1

    First, if the main CPU doesn't do the encryption, another CPU of equal speed must be provided.

    AES can be implemented in hardware for an almost trivial amount of gates these days. To encrypt/decrypt data at the rate a modern hard disk speeds is child's play for dedicated hardware. Typical performance is one AES block per clock cycle, meaning a 1 Mhz clock speed would give a 128 Mbs encode/decode.

    Even lacking dedicated hardware, they're putting 100 Mhz processors in microcontrollers these days. Atmel advertises .5 mW (mA? - I forget) per Mhz microcontrollers these days, so a 100 Mhz crypto controller would consume the equivalent of five LEDs. The drive motor is going to be the largest power concern.

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  69. Other questions remain: by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1

    I found this quote on the Atmel web site: "... the SAM7X offers 80 Mbps AES encryption throughput, which is 20x faster than a software implementation." I didn't know AES in specialized processor hardware was that advanced.

    However, the other questions remain:

    1) Does a lost password cause a complete loss of hardware? The article referenced by Slashdot implies that it does?

    2) Would you trust a hidden encryption system? The U.S. government has established that it can act in secret, and put executives in prison if they don't cooperate. How would you establish that there is no hidden system to decrypt the data?

    3) The specifications are poorly written. It would be scary to partner with such a disorganized organization. TrueCrypt is proven, and works very well.

    4) Is a hardware implementation really more secure than TrueCrypt? TrueCrypt could, for example, overwrite memory 20 times before exiting. A shutdown command could overwrite all of system memory.

    1. Re:Other questions remain: by gillbates · · Score: 1

      Okay, point by point:

      1.) A lost password causes complete loss of the data on the drive. The article hints that there's a reset facility, which would allow the drive to be reused, but the data would be lost.

      2.) Google Ken Thompson's _Reflections on Trusting Trust_ It's a good read, and basically shows that, unless you personally verify the hardware, i.e., build it yourself, you have no way of proving your system secure. While it is true that you can inspect TrueCrypt's source code, the fact remains that malicious hardware could divulge your keys.

      This is an important point, but generally speaking, you can usually trust hardware more than software. The reason is that software tends to be orders of magnitude more complex than hardware, and hardware testing is much easier to automate than software testing. True, your drive hardware could have bugs (Google the rz1000 chipset sometime), but that's going to be the case regardless of whether it contains encryption or not. That said, software encryption is far more vulnerable to compromise than hardware because it must run in an environment shared with unrelated functions. Compare the onboard hard drive encryption processor with TC - one is completely isolated from the rest of the system, while the other could be inspected by any process with root access. Running TC is pointless if your Windows machine gets owned by a virus which sends the keys over the network to the government. With HW encryption, the drive *can't* do this - it's not even electrically connected to the network in any meaningful way.

      3.) Poorly written specs?! Say it ain't so! Sadly, this is common in the industry, and usually done to allow rather liberal interpretation (read: cheap) for those that want to claim compliance without doing a lot of work.

      4.) Yes, hardware will always be more secure than software because it has limited, well defined interfaces. Granted, you can't verify it, but that's a moot point anyway, because TC runs on a CPU which could very well be compromised. Again, see reflections on trusting trust - it matters little if your source code is secure if your compiler, assembler, or CPU has been compromised.

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