Slashdot Mirror


Making the "Free" Business Model Work In a Tough Economy

Randy Savage writes "With venture capital on hold and advertising revenue down, the WSJ discusses where online business models might go. 'Over the past decade, we have built a country-sized economy online where the default price is zero — nothing, nada, zip. Digital goods — from music and video to Wikipedia — can be produced and distributed at virtually no marginal cost, and so, by the laws of economics, price has gone the same way, to $0.00. For the Google Generation, the Internet is the land of the free. '"

188 comments

  1. Volume by AKAImBatman · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The business model is very simple: Give the product away and make it up in volume!

    Joking aside, there has never been a better time for free products. As the strength of McDonalds and Walmart demonstrates, consumers are looking for the cheapest prices to help reduce their costs. Even consumers who are financially okay at the moment are reducing costs to prepare for any eventuality.

    If you look at the market, you see a lot of giveaways that used to be unthinkable. McDonalds is doing "free latte mondays" to draw business away from Starbucks while Denny's is giving away a free Grand Slam breakfast to each visitor tomorrow in an attempt to push coupon books out to customers. (Thus encouraging them to think about the large and inexpensive breakfast they can get there.)

    The key is that these businesses have solid revenue models that their giveaways promote. Web-based businesses are in a slightly tighter pickel. With advertising budgets getting slashed across the board, ad-supported websites are feeling the same pinch as print and broadcast media. Now is the time to find alternative revenue streams such as premium content to back their free services. Things like selling larger downloadable versions of free web games or state tax filings to go with free Federal filings.

    These are potentially sustainable models in the Internet age. They preserve the free service concept and allow consumers to evaluate the product(s). Customers then have a difficult time not paying for Premium features or content with real value. The "real value" is the key, of course. Which is something the internet has been missing with its premium features. (Video Game DLC is particularly bad in this area.)

    1. Re:Volume by A.+B3ttik · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's articles like this that make me want to go out and start signing up for "Premium" accounts. I don't mind pulling my own weight if I use something often enough, and it would make me feel like I'm doing my part to thwart the encroaching apocalypse.

      But now here's a question: where the hell is an average net user like me going to even use a "Premium" account? I can't even think of one that I'd use for free, much less want to pay for. Like most college students, I use forums and Facebook and Google and Wikipedia and Amazon. Like most gamers, I use Steam almost exclusively. None of my forums require or even offer paid membership, nor does Facebook. Steam's services are free, Slashdot is free, Wikipedia is free.

      Just about the only thing I can think of is signing up for a Premium Fileplanet account... but I download so little content these days (and I'm not a pirate _at all_) that I -know- it wouldn't be worth it. I'd barely use it.

      I guess I'm just going to shrug my shoulders and make a donation to Wikipedia.

    2. Re:Volume by AKAImBatman · · Score: 4, Informative

      None of my forums require or even offer paid membership, nor does Facebook. Steam's services are free, Slashdot is free, Wikipedia is free.

      I think you're missing the point. I can't speak to Facebook, but Steam makes their money off of the games hosted. When you purchase a game through Steam, you indirectly support it. Slashdot has a subscription service if you're interested. The key advantage is being able to see stories before they go live. (Which lets you compose your thoughts and post them in a well-formed manner before the comments are open.) Wikipedia is not a for-profit organization. You can make a donation if you like as that is the only way to support their services.

    3. Re:Volume by gnick · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I can't even think of one that I'd use for free, much less want to pay for. Like most college students, I use forums and Facebook and Google and Wikipedia and Amazon.

      Amazon's premium service, although expensive ($70/year IIRC), is wonderfully addictive. It eliminates the $25 minimum for free shipping and upgrades you to "free" 2-day shipping. If nothing else, it's worth signing up for their free (1-month) trial if you ever run into something you need quickly and are too cheap to upgrade your shipping option.

      Also, they allow you to invite (I think) up to 4 "household members" to share your membership. I do not know how they define "household member", but they haven't objected so far to me sharing a membership with my dad.

      Just my $.02 - Donating to Wikipedia still seems more useful.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    4. Re:Volume by jollyreaper · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you look at the market, you see a lot of giveaways that used to be unthinkable. McDonalds is doing "free latte mondays" to draw business away from Starbucks while Denny's is giving away a free Grand Slam breakfast [dennys.com] to each visitor tomorrow in an attempt to push coupon books out to customers. (Thus encouraging them to think about the large and inexpensive breakfast they can get there.)

      The key is that these businesses have solid revenue models that their giveaways promote. Web-based businesses are in a slightly tighter pickel. With advertising budgets getting slashed across the board, ad-supported websites are feeling the same pinch as print and broadcast media. Now is the time to find alternative revenue streams such as premium content to back their free services. Things like selling larger downloadable versions of free web games or state tax filings [taxact.com] to go with free Federal filings.

      I think there's a difference between McDonalds giving away free hamburgers and Wikipedia. The summary makes a good point "an be produced and distributed at virtually no marginal cost, and so, by the laws of economics, price has gone the same way, to $0.00." but misses the totality of it. What the net does is remove intermediaries, the middle-men. If I write a book the cost of production is my own time, plus my editor's time. If I want to make $50k a year off of that, I need to sell some ungodly millions of dollars worth of that book because I'm paying for printing, warehousing, distribution, space on bookshelves, not to mention all of the inflated salaries and bonuses sucked up by the bloatworms in this whole process.

      I'll move far less copies selling direct but I don't have to sell as many to earn a living. Will it be a tough gig? Hell, yeah, but it wasn't exactly easy to be a professional musician or writer back in the 60's, either.

      I think what will really help move digital product is a greater feeling of connection with the creators. I wouldn't see the need to give any more money to the rapper running around with multi-million dollar contract, assuming I liked rap, but I'd want to support the little guy who's just starting out, I want to see more work from him.

      The patronage model seems too altruistic to work in the real world but we're seeing signs that it really is possible.

      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    5. Re:Volume by AndrewNeo · · Score: 1

      I think the 'household member' works by letting other Amazon accounts use your Prime shipping as long as the delivery address is your home address. I don't think they can ship to other addresses like the Prime account holder can.

    6. Re:Volume by iminplaya · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Even the RIAA is getting into the act by reducing the amount of their claims.

      --
      What?
    7. Re:Volume by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think they can ship to other addresses like the Prime account holder can.

      I can personally testify that that's not the case (other addresses = allowed). Not sure if that violates the TOS or not.

    8. Re:Volume by DeskLazer · · Score: 1

      the only sad part is that it doesn't apply to EVERYTHING. weight restriction items [say, a drumkit for example?] do not qualify for the 2nd day free shipping IIRC. my one co-worker has it and I was thinking about getting him to get it for me with free shipping, then we found that out. it's nice for other items though I guess.

    9. Re:Volume by moosesocks · · Score: 1

      I've always seen Wikipedia as the internet's equivalent to NPR.

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    10. Re:Volume by Lumpy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The key is VOLUME and DIVERSITY.

      I self publish several DVD's and Coffee Table books. My books and DVD's sell very slowly, each book or DVD sells maybe 1 copy a month. But I have 4 DVD's and 8 books out there. so I am shipping 12 items a month all the time. as I add in the next 2 DVD's that I have finished and the next book I will sell 15 items a month all the time month after month.

      Unlike Traditional marketing and distribution I get about $20.00 per DVD sold and $10.00 per book sold. When I used to sell through a publisher I got $1.00 to $2.00 per book or DVD sold.

      I can sell 10X less and make the same money. Plus I dont have to spend Thousands to woo publishers to carry my product, I can tell the publishers to suck it and do it myself. My profits are 10X from when I had a formal publisher and agent. I control costs, I control every aspect about my product and I reap the profits.

      Do I sit in my villa drinking martinis all day? no. I order supplies, support the website and webstore, and place book and DVD replication orders. I "WORK" 1 hour a day doing that. The rest of the time I do my day job and then do my photography and Videography. I made enough money off it to upgrade my cameras and other gear yearly plus each year the profits increase as I add 2 DVD's and 2 Books to the pile of items that sell every month without fail.

      New DVD's get a surge of 200 sales initially, and they taper off to the 1 a month unless I get a mention in a trade magazine, then they spike again.

      I had an article about one of my products in Creative COW a year ago and my sales spiked hard, same as when I get a mention off a popular blog or podcast.

      If I marketed myself and my product better , sales would be far more brisk.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    11. Re:Volume by MooUK · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I believe what he was saying is that he'd be perfectly happy to pay extra for a premium account, but none of those relevant to him actually offer anything that matters to him. Personally, I mostly *read* slashdot, not comment on it, so a paid account is worthless to me. A lot of places offer ad-removal as a paid benefit - but ABP and appropriate filter lists make that irrelevant for free.

      There is a difference between being willing to pay for something that gives you something for the money, and being willing to give money without receiving anything in return. I'm not saying it's necessarily a good difference, but it's still a difference.

    12. Re:Volume by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anonymous coward?

    13. Re:Volume by iamthelaw · · Score: 4, Interesting

      A friend pointed out to me once that one way to think of this whole thing, to make it make a little more sense, is to put the business model on its side.

      A company like Google, for example -- most people would say that you and I, as searchers, are Google's customers. Instead, let's say that Google's "customers" are the advertisers, and their "product" is users (or, more concretely, the users' attention). By delivering "products" to "customers", they make money.

      So a site that makes no money -- an early-stage dot-com that doesn't advertise yet, what are they doing? They're building up a warehouse of product, in the hope that once they have enough products, they can sell them to customers at a good price.

    14. Re:Volume by jank1887 · · Score: 1

      Just to play the other side, the point of traditional marketing and distribution is the promise to surpass that 'break even point' in volume. If they reduce your take by 10x, then they need to produce more than 10x in increased sales for the same effort on your part. If they can't do that, then you're wasting money, and should renegotiate the contract. The intangible 'effort' part of the equation is tricky though.

    15. Re:Volume by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He explicitly mentions his day job, you fucking idiot.

    16. Re:Volume by pluther · · Score: 2, Funny

      Slashdot has a subscription service if you're interested. The key advantage is being able to see stories before they go live. (Which lets you compose your thoughts and post them in a well-formed manner

      See - now I know you're just making stuff up.

      Compose thoughts?

      Post them in a well-formed manner?

      On Slashdot??!

      --
      If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
    17. Re:Volume by camperdave · · Score: 1

      A company like Google, for example -- most people would say that you and I, as searchers, are Google's customers. Instead, let's say that Google's "customers" are the advertisers, and their "product" is users (or, more concretely, the users' attention). By delivering "products" to "customers", they make money.

      Yes, exactly! It is the same thing with TV. The commercials aren't there to entice the viewer. The shows are. TV makes its money by selling viewership to advertisers.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    18. Re:Volume by BoberFett · · Score: 1

      That may well have been the original impetus to work with a publisher long ago. Now that we have publishing cartel's who have perfected the art of creative accounting and confusing contracts, they own the creators rather than simply providing a service. The standard model of these cartels is to have the copyright assigned to them so the creator never gets it back, cook the books so it looks like there was no profit, send the creator a bill for $500.00 and laugh all the way to the bank.

    19. Re:Volume by poopdeville · · Score: 1

      Well it's not the "weight" that makes it ineligible (though that might have something to do with it).

      I've ordered some pretty heavy things from Amazon, using Prime. They are very clear about what is eligible and what isn't -- essentially, it has to be stored at one of Amazon's warehouses. Weight/bulkiness can be a factor here, especially if they already have a product of the same "kind" in the warehouse.

      For example, these are Prime Eligible drum kits:

      http://www.amazon.com/s/qid=1233619009/ref=sr_nr_n_2?ie=UTF8&rs=11970381&bbn=11970481&rnid=11970381&rh=n%3A11091801%2Cn%3A11970241%2Cn%3A11970381%2Cp_76%3A1%2Cn%3A11970481

      (I don't know about that "ref=" stuff in the link. I won't make any money if you look)

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
    20. Re:Volume by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kudos for having the class to not link to your own stuff, unlike other people on slashdot (who know who they are).

    21. Re:Volume by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Exactly. I am making more money off my books than I make when my books were in Barnes and Nobles. Because after the 10 sales and the $10.00 check comes to me, Oh they take $2.00 for administration and other fees.

      It get's worse for DVD's. If they dont sell 100 in a month they will not send a check. they roll it over until they do. then they take their fees.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  2. Probably have to subscribe to slashdot after all. by tjstork · · Score: 1

    Let's face it, at some point, Cmdr Taco is going to find that magic combination of additional powers and price that gets us all to subscribe, and all that free will evaporate. I mean, if Slashdot had Karma coupons that we could all trade, we'd all be suckered in.

    --
    This is my sig.
  3. Fix that by FriendlyLurker · · Score: 4, Insightful

    from TFA:
    > It's a consumer's paradise: The Web has become the biggest store in history...

    Telecom companies implementing tiered service models, destroying Net Neutrality will fix that temporary glitch. While they are at it, lets hand-out to them some public bail out tax^H^H^H printed money for the privilege.

  4. The point? by Thanshin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There is no "free" business model.

    There are forms of benefit that don't come from giving objects in exchange for money.

    1. Re:The point? by Oktober+Sunset · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Except slavery of course. Oh, Abraham, why did you have to spoil it? :P

  5. micropayments by TheSHAD0W · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This is exactly why the net needs a viable model for micropayments. And yes, I know, the abundance fan's response is that "money is obsolete, we don't need it any more"... People still want SOMETHING for their work, and while there have been all sorts of proposals, ranging from whuffie to all sorts of other trust metrics, micropayments would work just as well and would allow a tie-in to the remains of the real world economy.

    1. Re:micropayments by Kjella · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The short story on micropayments: The first one that tries to use it, dies. Why is wikipedia beating the crap out of britannica? Because if you want a general link you can post to that everyone can use, it must be an open site. How often does slashdot link to paid subscription articles? Never. I rememer there were a few NYT articles in the past that required free subscription, and it was always plenty bitching. I'm not sure what is or was competing with YouTube but the premise is simple, if you want to share a video you post it there and everyone can see. The result is that anyone that tries have their google rankings go to hell and toil away in obscurity. This will not work unless there's a really, really broad coalition that makes sure that the vast majority of the Internet population has a micropayment account. I put the odds of that happening at slightly below me winning the lottery three times in a row.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    2. Re:micropayments by TheSHAD0W · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, and no. The determining factor is really the ease of adoption. Make it dead simple for someone to turn a quarter sitting in their pocket into 250 tenth-cent micropayments, and a single click for a payment to be made, and people will use it.

    3. Re:micropayments by pileated · · Score: 1

      I happen to think you're right. This is particularly true if you focus on the producers of a product rather than the consumers. My particular perspective on this is newspapers which are slowly going out of business, for a number of reasons but one of which is that they're giving away their expensive content for free online. But newspapers are not alone. There are many good businesses that are going out of business due to free online replacements. I think most people knew that this party could not last (see Peggy Noonan in Saturday's WSJ on the GoldmansachsHead Disease, where the party never ends). I don't care what the hype says, nothing is free, including the internet.

      But micropayments, at least in theory, offer a compromise: payment for the producer and low price for the consumer.

    4. Re:micropayments by YourExperiment · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You're rather stating the obvious there. Of course the only way micropayments can work is if someone invents a micropayment account system good enough that people adopt it.

      Quite why nobody has done so is a mystery to me. It's hardly rocket science. It just takes a system exactly like PayPal (preferably not run by a bunch of assholes), except that every payment is charged at a set percentage, with no ridiculously large minimum fee or per-transaction fee. That way, it enables providers to charge the tiny sums of money which are necessary for consumers to embrace such a scheme (hence micropayment, see?)

      I can't see anyone objecting to paying a cent to see their favourite web comic, and I can't see many web comic authors objecting to getting (say) an income of $100 a day from their 10,000 regular readers.

      Since this whole idea was proposed years ago by someone a lot smarter than me, can anyone explain to me why it hasn't happened?

    5. Re:micropayments by MBGMorden · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I can't see anyone objecting to paying a cent to see their favourite web comic, and I can't see many web comic authors objecting to getting (say) an income of $100 a day from their 10,000 regular readers.

      Since this whole idea was proposed years ago by someone a lot smarter than me, can anyone explain to me why it hasn't happened?

      A cent for Penny Arcade? No, I wouldn't care. However, that is one site among countless ones that I visit every day. I have tons of sites that I visit like clockwork each day, and tons more that I visit on a whim (it's called web surfing for a reason). Start to add all that up and those pennies turn into real money.

      And besides that fact: the simple fact of the matter is that if you make it so that there's a meter to run up, people will do less of something. The Internet has been driven to the point where it is because people, much like TV, can log in and goof off for as long as they feel like with no financial consequences to answer to. The internet in this country NEVER took off until AOL and the like pulled the plug on charging per hour of access and went to an "unlimited" model (which effectively was unlimited when everyone was on dial up.

      Put the meter back in and people will start to care about what sites they visit, as it will be running up a bill again. Am I going to jump onto google and just look for something interesting for the hell of it? Nah. Times are tough and I don't need to be wasting anymore money right now. Fewer people looking for stuff, means fewer people finding stuff, which means the slow segregation and stagnation of the Internet.

      How well do you think MySpace would have fared if they charged you a penny for adding a friend for example? Note, not how would they fare RIGHT NOW, but when the site first launched, how would it have done? My bets is it would have about as much relevance at this point as Flooz if it had.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    6. Re:micropayments by digitalgiblet · · Score: 3, Informative

      The model that has evolved for webcomics typically balances on the following legs:

      1) Ads (Adsense, Project Wonderful, etc.)
      2) Books, T-Shirts, buttons, stickers, etc.
      3) Comics Conventions (to boost sales of said merch)
      4) Original art
      *
      *
      Profit!

      There are over 10,000 webcomics that simply don't make any money and a few that make a respectable living for the artist.

      The key here is that the artist is also an entrepreneur and not above selling trinkets. He (or she) only needs to cover his (or her) cost of living.

      I have a webcomic that is a few months old and have been researching and studying these models. I am in the 10,000+ group and would like to move into the other, smaller group some day.

      I won't post a link here because a) people will call me bad names for self-promotion, b) it is designed for children, not the Slashdot demographic and c) my servers don't need that kind of a workout.

      Just for the record I would very much like to get $100/day, but have far less than 10,000 readers.

      The usual metric is 1,000 True Fans (based on a blog you can google... not mine, but again, I don't want to melt anybody's servers). If you can get a 1,000 true fans to buy $100 worth of stuff a year, you can pretty much quit your day job and still cover luxuries like health care insurance...

    7. Re:micropayments by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      But micro payments may work as a form of "micro patronage" (which I think is the wave of the future).

      It worked for Penny-Arcade during burst 1.0, so I expect it is somewhat viable.

      Since artistic content is essentially free to redistribute, and readily available via P2P, any purchase at all is a form of patronage (yeah yeah, we like an album ect, but what I really here most often is "support the artist".

      If I could pay a site I liked $.50 and they got $.48 cents of it, we are on our way. Currently the $.50 gets the site something like $.30, makes it a far less viable option.

      There are probably plenty of sites in that range, though it isn't totally scalable (I doubt enough from users of Google could be done for example).

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    8. Re:micropayments by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, people want something for their work, but money is just a medium of exchange. I work, my boss gives me a universal coupon in the form of money that I can take anywhere and exchange for goods.

      We can do it without the coupons if we can control our impulse to hoard.

    9. Re:micropayments by luker0 · · Score: 3, Funny

      b) it is designed for children, not the Slashdot demographic

      You don't read slashdot much do you then :)

    10. Re:micropayments by DustCollector · · Score: 2, Insightful

      With micropayments, won't people feel nickeled and dimed (or fractions thereof)?

      I wouldn't want to pay fractions of a penny to read a blog post. But if the writer is any good and authors a book, I might buy the book. In the case of Joel Spolsky, I did exactly that.

      Similarly, I wouldn't want to pay fractions of a penny each time I used a web app. But I have purchased shareware / donationware.

    11. Re:micropayments by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      "My particular perspective on this is newspapers which are slowly going out of business, for a number of reasons but one of which is that they're giving away their expensive content for free online."

      Newspapers just don't get this new-fangled 'Internet' thing; the majority give away the things people buy them for -- access to the latest news stories -- for free, but then charge for access to old stories, which means that they rapidly cut themselves off from the rest of the Internet, as no-one can link to those old stories without expecting people who follow that link to pay for them.

      If they had any sense, they'd charge for new stories (or ensure they gained enough advertising revenue from readers to cover their costs), and leave the archives open to access.

    12. Re:micropayments by YourExperiment · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How well do you think MySpace would have fared if they charged you a penny for adding a friend for example?

      Interesting example. I think they would have fared rather well. Currently, random strangers add you as a friend you all the time, and it's typical to have friends numbering in the hundreds or thousands. This is both annoying and pointless, and it's part of the reason for the mass migration from MySpace to 'proper' social networking sites like Facebook. Charging for the privilege might have slowed this phenomenon somewhat!

      I take your wider point, however. It's a difficult thing to get right. On the one hand, I'd hate for the whole internet to become a pay zone, like many companies seemed to be aiming for in the bad old days. On the other hand, I think it'd be wonderful if small, independent artists, musicians and authors had a way of accepting small payments for their work.

      I'm biased here of course, being both a musician and an indie game designer myself. I rarely make any money out of what I do, and I have no desire to be signed to a major label or publishing house in order to do so. I wouldn't want to drive people away from my music by insisting they pay a ridiculous fee to listen. But I'd love it if there was a way to ask for just a few pennies in exchange for what I do, such that if enough people liked it I could think about devoting more time to doing what I love.

    13. Re:micropayments by Monchanger · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem with parent post is that it ignores the expected tiny value of individual micropayments, and sets up unsustainable business models as strawmen.

      As far as costs: using GP's figures, if you pay 1 cent 10,000 times, true that will add up to $100. But look at it this way: 10,000 seconds translate into over two hours of non-stop friend-adding at the sort of rate you'd need if you made a living clicking on banner ads. Speaking of banner ads- that's how you're currently using the micropayments idea, except there's a third party involved and you get pissed off by monkeys asking to be shot in the face. I can't wait to switch to a monkey-less model. (Yes, I'm perfectly aware of the many mechanisms used for blocking those monkey ads. To save someone the time of trying the rediculous counter-argument: yes, I do it too, but it's a bad thing when you look at the big picture; it destroys the business model of the service you are using.)

      Next, business models aren't developed as haphazardly as suggested (excluding the lousy ones that quickly fail). Of course MySpace and Facebook don't charge for adding friends- that idea would get someone fired; encouraging a larger number of friends is *the mechanism* for attracting new customers and keeping people on the site producing ad revenue. eBay similarly would never require a micropayment for performing each search query because it goes against their business model of taking a share of sales by getting visitors to bid as often as possible. On the other hand, the New York Times, unless generating revenue by showing visitors a bunch of ads, has little incentive to pay its staff to write stuff to be given out for free, so yeah, we should pay for that value should they switch to an ad-free micropayment-based model: note that the business model remains the same- visitors per page-visit (the difference is how the money is generated).

      Advertising will never die unless congress passes an unlikely (and probably unconstitutional) law against misleading consumers, requiring advertising to plainly state the pros and cons of products in equal font size. I'm sure that when a good micropayment system is established there will be a smart entrepreneur who will say- "I'll give you a micropayment allowance (perhaps even in the form of an "unlimited" subscription- surely Comcast will try to offer a rate hike including such) if you just watch some ads!". Thereby allowing cheapskates who would rather be monitored and flooded with constant advertising than spend $10-$20 a month on their "hobby" of web-surfing.

      Those of us old enough to need to make a budget have realized the monthly cost of entertainment and understand that web-surfing can definitely maintain its status as an extremely frugal pastime compared to the other options out there. It's not a bad business model- we're just waiting for a someone to implement it in a way that can reache critical mass. It's likely just a matter of time.

      If that's still to expensive, people can always turn to the web-based version of the public library and browse Wikipedia to kill time.

    14. Re:micropayments by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      There's a comic called Joyce & Walky. 1/3 of the comics during the week can be seen by everyone, and 2/3 of the comics can only be seen by subscribers.

      It's not really story-oriented so you don't miss a whole bunch. You can get a month's worth of subscriber comics at $2, and backorder at the same price. It's *reasonable* if you like the dude's work.

      So yeah, everybody wins? The best scenario is one where there's free crap for everyone and some premium crap for the people who'd care to pay for it.

    15. Re:micropayments by corbettw · · Score: 1

      The short answer: regulations on banking can be extremely onerous, especially in this post-PATRIOT act world. The cost of keeping track of all those tiny transactions means it's simple not worth the effort to do so.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    16. Re:micropayments by adrianmsmith · · Score: 1

      Not necessarily.

      You assume that payment is needed to view the site (in which case URLs being sent to random people who hadn't paid wouldn't work.)

      However there could be other alternatives, e.g. pay to be able to upload something, then it's available for everyone, i.e. combining payment and being able to view stuff.

      (I mean for sure that has other consequences as well, but I just wanted to point out that payment doesn't have to imply non-emailable URLs)

    17. Re:micropayments by Raenex · · Score: 1

      There's a comic called Joyce & Walky. 1/3 of the comics during the week can be seen by everyone, and 2/3 of the comics can only be seen by subscribers.

      Great. So say he gets moderately popular, where he actually has enough subscribers to make a living (dubious in itself). One subscriber puts the work on a p2p network. This being the Free Internet, where nobody has to support your failed business model, anybody who wants to will get the "premium" work for free. How many will still subscribe?

    18. Re:micropayments by silent_artichoke · · Score: 1

      That is exactly what got me excited about the Internet in the first place. I imagined going to my local paper's website to research things that had happened in the past, like in the movies. Maybe I could find a pattern of murders by clowns every 27 years in my town or something. Sadly, they never bothered to put up any archives and only retain old stories for a day or two. There are countless records that are lost to us because the papers do not put this information out there.

    19. Re:micropayments by RalphSlate · · Score: 1

      Micropayments don't mean 1 cent per page, or per day. They could mean 1 cent per month to visit a site. Or 25 cents per year.

      I agree that people don't want to worry about racking up charges -- but that does not mean that they don't want to pay for things. I worked for a dollar store chain, and when things are $1, people don't take the time to think "is it worth it". But when we introduced $2-5 items, they balked -- even though the deals were very good -- because $1 was below their radar, but $2-5 was not.

      If I had to pay 1-5 cents per month to each site to surf the web, the amount is so small that I wouldn't bother to meter myself.

      The big question is, is the content worth it? The next big question is, if IMDB starts charging, is the difference in their price versus the value provided by the next free competitor worth the switch? For many, it will not be, and IMDB will profit.

    20. Re:micropayments by PapayaSF · · Score: 1

      This will not work unless there's a really, really broad coalition that makes sure that the vast majority of the Internet population has a micropayment account.

      Indeed, which is why I wonder if it couldn't be done at the ISP level. If I were the newspaper industry (being killed by the web, because web ad revenue isn't close to replacing declining subscriptions and ads-on-paper), I'd approach ISPs with a micropayment system that they hosted and got a cut of. And I do mean micro: it shouldn't add more than a few dollars to the average user's account per month, so we're talking fractional cents per story. It has to be so small an amount that nobody sane can complain. Then, the content producers can make it up in volume. We already know they can't do it by charging dollars per story or tens of dollars per year per site.

      --
      Q: What does the "B." in Benoit B. Mandelbrot stand for? A: Benoit B. Mandelbrot
    21. Re:micropayments by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The thing is, soon there won't be any newspapers, online or off, because they are losing too much money. Do you have any idea how many journalists have been laid off in the last year, or how many papers have declared bankruptcy, defaulted on their loans, or area about to declare bankruptcy?

      The point of the original WSJ article is that maybe there is a price for a "free" world. I can understand your excitement about being able to do research. But you seem to not understand that what has paid for that data that you'd like are advertisements and subscriptions and they are now disappearing. I'm happy that newspapers are charging for them and I hope that they start charging for online content, either through micropayments or subscriptions. That's the only way I see of saving them.

      There is an idiotic notion that the news is out there online for free anyway. It's not. The vast majority of it comes from newspapers which have paid to do the research and write in intelligently. There's also an idiotic notion that newspapers 'just don't get it.' This is the cry of every group that thinks it knows more than the rest of the world. I've always wanted to smack anyone who says it, regardless of who they're talking about. It reveals an incredible arrogance which is generally absolutely without foundation.

      Let me ask you: are you willing to pay for these 'countless records?' That's what newspapers need to survive and their survival, at least to them, is far more important than your convenience.

      I'm sure that they'd like to make the data available to you and to others but right now that's like signing a death warrant on themselves.

    22. Re:micropayments by timmarhy · · Score: 1
      err, how about they put in advertisements, exactly like they do now. if they really are a decent paper they will attract the same prices they do now in their paper version. if they can't then they deserve to die out.

      allow a premium subscription service which means you get access a day early, everyone else has to wait a day. no big deal.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    23. Re:micropayments by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      90% of a newspapers revenue comes from print advertising and 10% from online. And online advertising is declining. So you really think that they can survive on that measly and declining 10%.

      There is a whole lot of nonsense spouted out regarding the business model of online. The recession is showing just how much nonsense is there and how difficult it will be for the 'free' model to continue. Again this was the point of the original article.

    24. Re:micropayments by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      If I were the newspaper industry (being killed by the web, because web ad revenue isn't close to replacing declining subscriptions and ads-on-paper), I'd approach ISPs with a micropayment system that they hosted and got a cut of. And I do mean micro: it shouldn't add more than a few dollars to the average user's account per month, so we're talking fractional cents per story

      I don't see that working, what ISP would want to do this? My ISP already provides news articles for free. I'd think other ISPs do the same. If they started charging people to view what they do now they'll just move on.

      Falcon

    25. Re:micropayments by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, with data caps people do care what they do online, it might as well be metered.

      Visiting youtube is probably ok, but HD clips on Vimeo - downloadable content from say iTunes (a movie) and there goes your allocation. Now this is the ISPs way of charging you for content.

    26. Re:micropayments by silent_artichoke · · Score: 1

      Yes, I was definitely willing to pay to get to those records. I was trying to do some class reports on local history and it took me forever to get the info that I needed. I would have been able to find it in seconds if I had access to those records. There was also just the curiosity about local history that I had. Besides the clowns, of course...

      Who knows what career I could have had now if I had been able to get those records. I was not really commenting on whether they were free or not, but the fact that they are not available at all.

    27. Re:micropayments by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      Because the people who generally like it enough to pay for it aren't the kind of assholes who would do that.

      Disclaimer: I don't subscribe, because I haven't even read through the free archives yet.

    28. Re:micropayments by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Because the people who generally like it enough to pay for it aren't the kind of assholes who would do that.

      Is that just like every other "premium" content that has made it's way onto the net? All it takes is one person. Besides, these people aren't assholes, they're just sharing, right? The Free Internet doesn't have to support a failed business model. This comic person can go on book signing tours or something.

      Disclaimer: I don't subscribe, because I haven't even read through the free archives yet.

      As I said, dubious this person would get enough subscribers to make a living in the first place.

  6. Earth to businesses by Yvan256 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Yes, free can beat not free. Can't argue with that.

    You have to realise, however, that sometimes it's not the fact that it's free, it's the fact that's it's available at all.

    Pirates don't care about international borders, different launch dates for different countries, how old the content is, etc, etc.

    If you want to sell your content, don't build artificial borders that prevents us from buying it.

    As an example: how long has the iTunes store been running? Why can't the labels tear sell their content to everyone on the planet? It's your own mess of contracts and licenses, figure it out for yourselves and leave us out of it.

    1. Re:Earth to businesses by Aladrin · · Score: 0, Redundant

      "Pirates don't care about international borders, different launch dates for different countries, how old the content is, etc, etc."

      It's precisely because they -do- care about that that creates the problem with piracy.

      I know people outside the US that pirate for 2 main reasons:

      1) Their country's version costs more than double what it would cost for me to buy it and ship it to them as a gift

      2) Their country's version comes out 3-12 months after the US version

      I think that was probably the point you were trying to make, but that isn't what you wrote.

      As for why it still happens: Every country has different laws. That means different lawyers and different approval processes. In addition, as the EU stuff usually hits the entire EU at once, all those countries have to wait on the slowest one, while the US and JP releases don't have to wait on any other country. So they come out first in the easy locations, and the EU waits on their slowest members.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    2. Re:Earth to businesses by skerit · · Score: 1

      Exactly! We don't want any of that "this content is not available in your region" crap. Delayed distribution used to be a geographical obstacle, now that we have finally found a way to get rid of it they're doing their best to implement it.

    3. Re:Earth to businesses by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      Do not forget that every country has its own regulations. What is permitted in a movie in the US can often be utterly forbidden in Japan or France.

      Just try showing a US-made movie about the skinhead movement in Germany. Just try.

      Airline movies are probably the most heavily edited because they need to be able to be shown in nearly every market. So they have to comply with all of the restrictions in all locations all at once.

      Failure to adhere to all of the necessary regulations gets you tossed out of most countries and your imports seized at the border.

    4. Re:Earth to businesses by troll8901 · · Score: 1

      sometimes it's not the fact that it's free, it's the fact that's it's available at all.

      Well said.

      A Slashdot writer recently wrote about one reason why Russians pirate games - due to lack of availability.

      Russians read articles about great games, and they felt "I want to play it now! Right now!", and they were even prepared to pay. However, games were released in Russia about 6 months after USA. For some reason, the publishers were not willing to budge. Therefore, the avid Russian gamers were forced to get pirated games. (I think it becomes a vicious cycle - the game market in Russia was rather small.)

      IIRC, the person also praised Steam (from a content delivery POV) for making games available worldwide, wherever the user may be. (I think the gamers were willing to endure the DRM in return for the delivery.)

    5. Re:Earth to businesses by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Failure to adhere to all of the necessary regulations gets you tossed out of most countries and your imports seized at the border.

      Region encoding isn't to comply with international laws. It's purely to segment the market into different price zones. Seriously, a government can forbid you from selling a movie in their country, but they don't force you to region encode the DVD.

    6. Re:Earth to businesses by mattwarden · · Score: 1

      Amen. The jerk who owns the grocery store down the street won't let me into his store because he says I'm a thief. If he's not willing to sell his stuff to me, I'll just steal it.

    7. Re:Earth to businesses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      copyright infrigement is not theft

      and your analogy would be better as ''he won't sell to me because I'm not in the same side of the town as him''

    8. Re:Earth to businesses by mattwarden · · Score: 1

      I was joking, but really the analogy is "that pizza place won't deliver to me because I'm outside their range".

  7. Wait by Kjella · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Didn't I hear this once before, when the dotcom era ended and all the "free" businesses had to start making money? Realisticly all the "techy" parts like servers and bandwidth should keep getting cheaper, so that helps. And in a hostile market, marketing goes first as it's an "expense", then you lose your customers, then the marketing budget comes back. When else are you going to fight for your customers than when they're scarce? The alledged death of ad revenue is heavily overhyped.

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    1. Re:Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      And in a hostile market, marketing goes first as it's an "expense"

      I disagree. Marketing leads to sales. You can have the best product in the world, but if no one knows about it, you're not making money.

      And as we all know, good marketing can even lead to people buying CRAPPY products.

    2. Re:Wait by hobbit · · Score: 2, Informative

      Did you even read the rest of the sentence you quoted?

      --
      "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something" - Plato
    3. Re:Wait by damaki · · Score: 1

      Some marketing leads to sales. The remainder leads to bigger prices because it is expensive to market a product.

      --
      Stupidity is the root of all evil.
    4. Re:Wait by MindlessAutomata · · Score: 1

      Well, that certainly explains the success of the ipod in comparison to other personal media players.

    5. Re:Wait by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      I disagree. Marketing leads to sales.

      Raw materials, salaries, energy and rent also lead to sales. That doesn't mean they aren't expenses.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    6. Re:Wait by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      And as we all know, good marketing can even lead to people buying CRAPPY products.
      Well that is actually relative. There are pleanty of products that went down and burn even with the best marketing, just because people didn't see the product work the value.

      Now if you have the best product in the world and you market it poorly you will not get a good return. But if you market the worse product. Word of mouth will spread rapidly. Bad product reviews spread faster then good ones.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    7. Re:Wait by Shikaku · · Score: 1

      No I did not read. I don't read books in my spare time, so I don't have time to get the whole picture.

  8. Free reduces infrastructure costs by Gizzmonic · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The real appeal of free software is in reducing infrastructure costs. Just like roads, they don't normally generate money themselves, but they make it easier for businesses to interact and generate wealth!

    --
    (-1, Raw and Uncut is the only way to read)
    1. Re:Free reduces infrastructure costs by mattwarden · · Score: 1

      Um, what? Hate to stomp on your analogy, especially since you got modded up for it, but... do you have any idea how much the government pays private contractors to build and maintain roads? Millions and millions of dollars.

      You're talking about two totally different things: cost centers and free software.

    2. Re:Free reduces infrastructure costs by Gizzmonic · · Score: 1

      Think of it this way: Linux was created so that university computer scientists could have access to UNIX (or a reasonable facsimile) without paying for expensive, proprietary UNIX boxes by HP, SGI, or whatever. The project didn't make money in itself, but it did allow them to save a lot of money because they could use off-the-shelf Intel hardware for Linux.

      --
      (-1, Raw and Uncut is the only way to read)
    3. Re:Free reduces infrastructure costs by mattwarden · · Score: 1

      Sounds like an arbitrary distinction. Whether ROI is achieved by re-sell or higher profit margins on related products is not really a meaningful distinction in any way I can figure.

  9. free? by thermian · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So, all those datacentres buying hardware and using electricity, are they free too?

    Sooner or later there is a cost, and free services have one big problem for long term survivability, where's the profit?

    A great free service may be fun, might even be useful, but sooner or later down the chain someone needs to be paid.

    Or are all web developers working for no pay these days?

    --
    A learning experience is one of those things that say, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' - D. Adams
    1. Re:free? by ternarybit · · Score: 5, Insightful

      not free, just zero obligatory cost to user. Google isn't truly free because you get AdSense on the right of every search, which are paid for by advertisers. Wikipedia is free but gets millions in donations from many sources.

      Nothing of use is truly free to produce, (see parent) but since the cost of disseminating digital services divides to almost nothing per client, only a few of those customers need to support the provider to keep everyone in "free" service.

      When I can try a fully-functional product/service before investing a dime, I am much more likely to pay/donate than if I am required to pay even nominal cost upfront. That is why I've spent much more on FOSS in the last 10 years than I have commercial software.

    2. Re:free? by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      So, all those datacentres buying hardware and using electricity, are they free too?

      Sooner or later there is a cost, and free services have one big problem for long term survivability, where's the profit?

      A great free service may be fun, might even be useful, but sooner or later down the chain someone needs to be paid.

      Or are all web developers working for no pay these days?

      You hit the nail on the head. Unless the fixed costs are covered, and there are also marginal costs (Bandwidth, power,etc.) that must be paid as well so if it really prices at zero ultimately no one will produce those products because the will lose money.

      Of course, what really happens is the costs are shifted to their cash sources - Google gets ads, FOSS gets donated time and money, etc. That's not a new idea - TV and Radio did that for years - and still does it to a lesser extent with the growth of pay premium services.

      eporducts

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    3. Re:free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      couldn't agree with you more. Like when I get my stock picks from http://www.yourmovestocks.com I am paying them and my service provider and people are paying for me to be getting these stock picks because the site wants more revenue. It's really a viscous cycle. Ask, google, yahoo all do the same type of stuff. We only see what the highest bidder wants us to see. And its funny how google hides its algorithm for top pages. I'm sure it has nothing to do with which pages will bring them in the most money. Or does it?

    4. Re:free? by mattwarden · · Score: 1

      > just zero obligatory cost to user

      What does that even mean? When the consumers decide to utilize a product, they pay. It's not obligatory, because they choose to purchase the service. If you're saying the consumers can "purchase" the service in this case and still not have to pay anything, you're wrong. See below.

      > Google isn't truly free because you get AdSense on the right of every
      > search, which are paid for by advertisers.

      No, it's paid by users. If users do not buy more shit as a result of AdSense, then advertisers do not have any reason to pay for the advertising. The "oh we'll just support this free service with ads" model only works if the users end up paying for the service with their extra consumption. This is money they would not have paid if they hadn't used the service and seen the ad, by definition.

      > Wikipedia is free but gets millions in donations from many sources.

      From whom? Magical donation fairies? Again, this is a series of users paying for a service. We are only talking about models of enforceability here. In the Wikipedia donation model, they utilize ad campaigns that they hope will trigger an emotional response from people who value the service and essentially guilt them into paying for the service they thought was free. Are they "obligated" to donate? Are users "obligated" to click on ads. YES! If they don't, wikipedia and any other "free" service dies. The only difference you are making is with the individual user. You're saying (I think) that since the individual user can choose not to donate, then that is somehow different than a normal business model.

      Sorry, it's not. Very few business models are constructed in a way where every consumer pays the same amount for their service. Look at insurance, the lottery, cable internet, any store that ever has a sale, etc.

      Just to add another one: when you buy deodorant, you are paying for products taken for free by shoplifters.

      > Nothing of use is truly free to produce, (see parent) but since the
      > cost of disseminating digital services divides to almost nothing per
      > client, only a few of those customers need to support the provider
      > to keep everyone in "free" service.

      Having x/n users pay the cost and (n-x)/n users skate free is not any different from requiring every user to pay 1/n of the cost, except that there are almost no businesses where every user provides the exact same profit margin.

      > When I can try a fully-functional product/service before investing a
      > dime, I am much more likely to pay/donate than if I am required to
      > pay even nominal cost upfront.

      Again, this is nothing new. Right now I have a $60k piece of software on my laptop that I'm evaluating for a client. I didn't pay a dime for it, because the company knows precisely what you state above.

    5. Re:free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When I can try a fully-functional product/service before investing a dime, I am much more likely to pay/donate than if I am required to pay even nominal cost upfront. That is why I've spent much more on FOSS in the last 10 years than I have commercial software.

      You and many, many others here have said something akin to this, but everyone is talking about entirely free software, not shareware, or gosh, functional demo software.

      I still haven't seen one good reason in here for fully free software. Everything I've read supports both shareware and demo models too. Is there something inherently wrong with charging per unit for software?? I don't think so. Give me a reason. There are good ways to improve distribution without giving something away entirely free of charge.. Will you reach as big an audience? NO. But what business are you in, making money or expanding marketshare in the hopes of someday profiting from it, and at the same time conditioning your users to think your product should cost nothing.

      Those who buy open source software don't give a damn about the source, or community, and those who do, they think all software should be free (of cost too, for some reason)

      Selling software support... if only large business buy that crap, then F' the little guy, sorry, here's some nagware you can play with until you cough up dough.

  10. Re:Probably have to subscribe to slashdot after al by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A good place to start would be for Slashdot to charge for a plaintext(or ODF?) version of a user's comment history, on a per-download basis.

    Maybe they could adjust the price of them according to per K of M of data. I would gladly pay 3 bucks a hit to use that feature.

  11. Re:Probably have to subscribe to slashdot after al by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Not me, I don't care about Karma.

    Posting anonymously to protect my Karma.

  12. What a crazy idea! by kjart · · Score: 2, Funny

    FTA:

    So Web startups are having to do the unthinkable: come up with a business model that brings in real money while they're still young.

    1. Re:What a crazy idea! by 3.5+stripes · · Score: 1

      I thought that sort of thing went away with the venture capital?

      --


      He tried to kill me with a forklift!
    2. Re:What a crazy idea! by Firehed · · Score: 2, Insightful

      VCs want a revenue model before you start. That has never changed. That quote is merely suggesting that if you've got a damn good idea, you'll need to figure out a good way to monetize it before you bankrupt yourself. It said "young", not "in the womb".

      --
      How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
    3. Re:What a crazy idea! by I+cant+believe+its+n · · Score: 1

      Insightful (and funny) talk by David Heinemeier Hansson entitled "The secret to making money online".

      --
      She made the willows dance
  13. Fuck Wall Street by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is more to interaction between individuals in society other than exchanging sheets of paper with numbers on them. If the people who pull the strings print out more numbers for themselves than the rest of the nation, then the system eventually collapses, much like any other corrupt enterprise. That's what's happening now.

    Be prepared to learn how to trade your talents and goods with people without exchanging bits of paper. The dollar could soon be as hard to get as it is worthless. Seriously.

  14. Bullshit by MikeRT · · Score: 3, Insightful

    can be produced and distributed at virtually no marginal cost

    Debian Linux would have cost at least $1.9B to produce in a private environment. $1.9B may be smaller than what Microsoft spends on Windows, but it is a hell of a lot more money than "marginal cost."

    Let's also not forget the fact that there are few, if any, desktop OSS apps that are as robust as, say, the Adobe suite of products or Microsoft Office.

    It does OSS no service by giving people the impression that it is cheap and easy to produce. In fact, that is downright self-destructive because such an impression will make people behave even more like cheapskates. "What do you mean I should buy a supported license? I don't need to help pay for no stinkin R&D!! This stuff is supposed to be free? Why am I paying you anyway?!"

    1. Re:Bullshit by SSpade · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You don't know what "marginal cost" means, do you?

      It means the cost to create one extra item of something, once you're already making a bunch of them. In the case of software it's the distribution cost.

      That tends to be extremely low for any software product (which is why we seldom get manuals in the box now, as they add a lot to the marginal cost) and is close to zero for online distribution. Even if you're paying through the nose for bandwidth your incremental cost for a CD size .iso is a few pennies. If you use something like bittorrent, to leach off your users bandwidth (I'm looking at you, Blizzard), your incremental cost is likely an order of magnitude or two less than that.

    2. Re:Bullshit by Kjella · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You don't know what "marginal cost" means, do you?

      He does, it's a parser ambiguity.

      can be (produced and distributed) at virtually no marginal cost = stamp the CD, ship it
      can be produced and (distributed at virtually no marginal cost) = developer produces code

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    3. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "marginal cost" is an economic term, not a quantitative term. It does not mean "very little," rather it is the incremental cost of "selling" one more copy.

      That is essentially zero (efficient distribution) compared to the development cost you mentioned of $1.9B. Price theory says that you make marginal revenue equal to marginal cost to maximize profit, in this case zero.

      Read the article with that definition in mind.

      http://tinyurl.com/clhb9u

    4. Re:Bullshit by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      "marginal cost" is an economic term, not a quantitative term.

      Can you calculate it? Yes. Then how is it not quantitative?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    5. Re:Bullshit by kLaNk · · Score: 1

      In the interest of being pedantic, I believe you were looking for "measure" not "calculate".

    6. Re:Bullshit by Draek · · Score: 1

      Debian Linux would have cost at least $1.9B to produce in a private environment.

      Debian GNU/Linux is an OS whose size and scope dwarfs *anything* ever put out by the propietary world, not even Microsoft's entire software portfolio can match it let alone a single product, so the comparison isn't really valid. You don't need to match Debian to have a working, sellable product.

      Let's also not forget the fact that there are few, if any, desktop OSS apps that are as robust as, say, the Adobe suite of products or Microsoft Office.

      Define "robust". Because my particular definition of it isn't met by either MS Office, or anything put out by Adobe more than three years after the acquisition of the original company that developed it.

      It does OSS no service by giving people the impression that it is cheap and easy to produce. In fact, that is downright self-destructive because such an impression will make people behave even more like cheapskates. "What do you mean I should buy a supported license? I don't need to help pay for no stinkin R&D!! This stuff is supposed to be free? Why am I paying you anyway?!"

      But it *is* cheap to produce, you just need enough charisma to lead a community (I think there's a Linus quote about it somewhere). And you should buy a license if you want support, that's the obvious answer, the product may be free but the company's time isn't so if you want help, pay up. It's the classical F/OSS business model.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    7. Re:Bullshit by Zaphod-AVA · · Score: 1

      [Arthur Dent]This must be some strange usage of the word 'robust' that I hadn't previously been aware of. [/Arthur Dent]

    8. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've learned that in OSS world robost = worksForMe

      for Microsoft = worksFor400Million people.

  15. Tanstaafl you say? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I chuckle every time the FOSS community says, emphatically, "Tanstaafl!". (Or in this case, tags the post with it)... ...while, at the same time, presenting FOSS as though it has zero cost. Only a moran would use M$ software! Linux is free!

    I love FOSS. It's great to have "free" resources available and it's great that people spend the time to work on it. It may be free to download, but using it is not zero cost. Tanstaafl.

    1. Re:Tanstaafl you say? by cromar · · Score: 1
  16. We don't need no stinkin' money by ClosedSource · · Score: 3, Insightful

    People in software development are the only ones I can think of who promote the idea that they should be paid less (e.g. this story) and that most of their colleagues suck (e.g. thedailywtf).

    1. Re:We don't need no stinkin' money by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      Well, to be fair, at least with respect to the second point, the problem is that there's little barrier of entry to becoming a "software developer". All you need to do is hang out a shingle, and voila, you're good to go. Unfortunately, that means the industry is truly awash with clueless hacks...

    2. Re:We don't need no stinkin' money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I'm not even slighly related to software development - and yet, most of my colleagues suck.

    3. Re:We don't need no stinkin' money by wytcld · · Score: 2, Insightful

      To be truly fair, compare industries with high barriers of entry, like medicine and law. YMMV, but I've worked with plenty of clueless hacks from both those professions. Or take public school teachers, in most states requiring special degrees and certification, yet by-and-large clueless hacks. Private schools, without special degree and certification requirements, and often with lower pay, get far better teachers. Why is that? Could it be because the social environment is far more important to satisfaction than pay or certification? Might that extend to the present question?

      As for the "most of our colleagues suck" among software developers, part of the problem is it's such a vast field that most any of us is ignorant of important stuff that most any other of us is familiar with. It's a strange case where the grass looks greener in our own yards.

      --
      "with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
    4. Re:We don't need no stinkin' money by ClosedSource · · Score: 1

      Well, I see that about 90% of want ads for software developers require a CS or Engineering degree and significant experience in a laundry list of buzzwords. I see that as a significant barrier to entry for "clueless hacks".

    5. Re:We don't need no stinkin' money by tthomas48 · · Score: 1

      This is a tangent, but private schools don't get better teachers. They get better students which makes shitty teachers less obvious. If we took a city and made all of its schools private, and somehow made sure all the kids in the school district should attend, I'm quite sure they'd end up looking exactly the same as our current public schools.

    6. Re:We don't need no stinkin' money by kLaNk · · Score: 1

      The conviction with which you write that implies you have data to the same effect?

    7. Re:We don't need no stinkin' money by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      You'd think. But without a reasonable evaluation process, it's surprising who can squeak through.

      'course, I suppose the exact same thing is true of any other discipline. But a failure to, say, engineer a bridge properly results in some pretty spectacular failures, which means the standards for performance are that much higher. Alas, software (and it's developers) isn't held to such lofty standards.

    8. Re:We don't need no stinkin' money by tthomas48 · · Score: 1

      Some data?

      http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=private+school+teachers+level+of+education

      Actually I was wrong:
      http://www.uft.org/news/teacher/insight/pvt_school/

      The new report, by Teachers College's National Center for the Study of Privatization in Education and funded by the U.S. Department of Education, finds that, after fully controlling for demographic differences between students in public and private schools, the presumed advantages of private schools disappear; in fact, in most cases public schools outperform private schools, on an apples-to-apples basis

      So according to the US Department of Education if you did what I said you'd actually end up with a town full of even shittier private schools.

    9. Re:We don't need no stinkin' money by systemeng · · Score: 1

      But, when you design a bridge as a Professional Engineer, you are taking personal responsibility for it and your arse is on the line. When you write a faulty inventory management system, the result is "OOPS my bad, here's the bill."

    10. Re:We don't need no stinkin' money by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      I couldn't agree more. Which is, again, why I believe the industry really is awash with hacks, and why you see sites like thedailywtf springing up. There are people out there calling themselves "software developers" while doing the shoddiest of work, and a) no one holds them accountable, and b) no one even thinks to (people are resigned to the idea that software is buggy and unstable).

    11. Re:We don't need no stinkin' money by kLaNk · · Score: 1

      What you just gave me was information concerning schools in general, not specifically the teachers.

      private schools don't get better teachers

      Was what you said.

      I'll ask again: do you have data that states or even merely suggests that "private schools don't get better teachers"? Interestingly enough, true or not, the first link in the google search you kindly provided made private schools out to be a far superior work environment for a teacher than public schools.

      The reason I say this is because I don't think you can produce any believable data to specifically suggest that private schools don't get better teachers. You appear to be making a direct connection between teachers and how well people in school score on tests. While I don't have any data myself I'd suggest that in the grand scheme of achieving high generalized testing scores teachers aren't really that key compared to a whole host of other factors which have a *significantly* greater impact on a student's abilities to score high numbers. Again, I don't have any specific data to back this up, just a hunch.

    12. Re:We don't need no stinkin' money by tthomas48 · · Score: 1

      No. You're right. I don't have any scientific data to prove the subjective claim that public schools have better teachers. Because oddly enough you can't prove subjective claims with science. I could say that because I'm a fundamentalist Christian I think that a teacher with an 8th grade education who hasn't been tainted by the world is a better teacher than either the private or public sector can provide. You could not dispute my claim scientifically.

      All I can provide you with is data about the test scores, the pay scale, education, and the hours worked. And in all those cases when student backgrounds are controlled for public schools come out on top. I cannot prove better. No one can prove better. That doesn't mean I don't have a stackload of data to back up my subjective claims. And you've got hunches and a claim that the work environment is "nicer".

    13. Re:We don't need no stinkin' money by kLaNk · · Score: 1

      Because oddly enough you can't prove subjective claims with science.

      Subjectively speaking, I don't think "subjective" means what you think it means.

      Subjective claims can be objectively wrong.

    14. Re:We don't need no stinkin' money by tthomas48 · · Score: 1

      A subjective claim can be objectively wrong, but it doesn't change the fact that it is subjectively valid. The only way a subjective claim can be invalid is if the person making the claim is lying. Thus if I said that it was my subjective opinion that you were making a lot of really good points about education then I would be lying and thus my subjective opinion would be false. But you cannot in any way prove or disprove my subjective opinion. It's mine.

      You are a proof for this. Even though I've provide objective proof for all of my statements, I have not changed your subjective view. Because it's subjective, and belonging only to you.

      I could take my subjective view, use it as a scientific hypothesis, prove it false and chose to disregard my results. My original subjective view would still be valid, even though I had just proven it objectively false.

    15. Re:We don't need no stinkin' money by kLaNk · · Score: 1

      Being wrong never felt so right, eh?

    16. Re:We don't need no stinkin' money by jesset77 · · Score: 1

      It is surprising, isn't it? It says less about software developers, however, than it says about money itself.

      AS a software developer, I depend on using more software than I write. All developers are more "end users" than "creators". Thus, we want ways to get paid that don't come straight back out of our own wallet tenfold.

      --
      People willing to trade their freedom of expression for temporary entertainment deserve neither and will lose both.
    17. Re:We don't need no stinkin' money by ClosedSource · · Score: 1

      "..why you see sites like thedailywtf springing up"

      I think it's really more about a "fraternity" mindset that has invaded the profession of late. Building one's ego up by tearing other people down.

  17. What does this tell us? by drdoot · · Score: 1

    Websites that provide something of real value for free either have a really smart beachhead strategy, or havn't yet figured out how to monetize what they do have.

    Also, anyone in business will tell you that money/price is hardly ever a deciding factor on whether someone will pay for a product. When you go applying this to existing websites it's clear that giving things away only represents a small portion of the overall market. An example is plentyoffish vs match.com - it's all in the value!

    1. Re:What does this tell us? by CorporateSuit · · Score: 1

      Also, anyone in business will tell you that money/price is hardly ever a deciding factor on whether someone will pay for a product.

      This has got to be the stupidest thing I've heard in months. It is ALWAYS a factor of whether I pay for a product. Psychologists say that most people weigh the pain of losing money with the pleasure of having a new product in order to decide whether or not they'll buy it. No wonder an entire economy can crash in a matter of months -- it's got too many idiots, disconnected with reality, pulling the strings. When I need to choose between listening to a new music artist or feeding the family for a day, I choose feeding the family. If it were a choice of listening to a new music artist where I just have to skip dessert to break even, I might consider buying the CD.

      --
      I am the richest astronaut ever to win the superbowl.
    2. Re:What does this tell us? by drdoot · · Score: 1

      Also, anyone in business will tell you that money/price is hardly ever a deciding factor on whether someone will pay for a product.

      You're probably right..... it's ALWAYS only ever about price and nothing else... 7 Eleven doesn't sell convenience and you always hunt for the cheapest cola at 3am. BMW doesn't sell exclusivity. This is why everyone buys hyundais and nobody spends over $30k on a car. Hospitals don't sell urgency - When you're having a heart attack at 3am and need treatment ASAP you'll always hunt for the cheapest hospital first. Harvard Business School did a little study on this years ago and found that only 10% of the time is decision to purchase ever based on price alone. There is nearly always a subjective reason behind it....

  18. Economics in the Information Age by camperdave · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We live in the information age. Information is easy to duplicate, to transport, to store, to look up. Information is cheaper than dirt. The old business models based on scarcity or rarity or production difficulty that work well for physical goods just do not work for selling information.

    An information source will attract consumers. The better the source, the more people are attracted to it. Just look at Slashdot. Slashdot attracts so many readers that when it links to an article, it can bring that article's server to it's knees. Also, the more/better the information on your site, the more you will attract even more information. It's a positive feedback loop. Placing any sort of restrictions on the information (copyright limits, DRM, country boundaries, release dates, etc) breaks the positive feedback system, and drives people to other sources.

    So, the question is, how do you get these consumers to "let off dollars" as the saying goes. As much as I hate to say it, the answer is advertising. People have been watching movies and shows for free for decades on ad based television channels. People have been listening to free music for even longer, on ad based radio. They will do the same thing for ad based internet sites.

    The trick is that your ads must not get in the way of the consumer getting to the information that they want. If you break that popularity feedback loop, you'll drive consumers away. It has to be subtle enough to not interfere.

    Google is a good example of how to do it. Quality information, and on the right hand side subtle, non interfering (and I might add, relevant) ads.

    --
    When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    1. Re:Economics in the Information Age by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      So you eat information? And you live in it? And wear it? And you drive around in it? And you are typing on it right now? Whoever told you that the only thing worth anything is information was selling you a scam. Right now the US is consuming massive amounts of raw materials and finished products. Not one bit of that is information.

      Let me bust the greatest lie on the web: There is NOTHING free on this planet. Someone, somewhere, for some reason, paid for what you get. And in the long run you are going to pay for everything you get one way or another. Get used to it. Capitalism might suck but it is better than every other option out there.

    2. Re:Economics in the Information Age by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      Advertising, and especially Google, is why 50% or more of all search results are bogus pages that just contain ads today. And you are suggesting we need more advertising?

    3. Re:Economics in the Information Age by Average · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The problem with reliance on advertising is how badly it really works.

      Businesses always suspected they were wasting a lot of money on advertising. But, it was a black box. Designed, by the admen, to be hard to judge whether it was effective or not.

      But, in the early internet, the advertisers went straight to the geeks, with little 'Madison Avenue' in between. The geeks said, "sure, we can give you click-through and dwell-time and all the numbers you want". And the businesses got the numbers and said "holy Jeesh, internet advertising sucks in cost-effectiveness". All ads sucked, we just measure it better online.

    4. Re:Economics in the Information Age by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, said.

      You phrasing of the importance of the 'popularity feedback loop' is spot on.

    5. Re:Economics in the Information Age by Phoenixhawk · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Just about anyone 30+ can remember using Lycos, Alta vista, Yahoo, or Excite long before Google, and can remember typing in a single word, and having what you want in the first 10 results.

      So yea basically before there were ad pages that contain nothing but keywords that were registered with the search engines.

      but as camperdave said "The trick is that your ads must not get in the way of the consumer getting to the information that they want. If you break that popularity feedback loop, you'll drive consumers away. It has to be subtle enough to not interfere."

      This is very much the reason google is nearing the end of its life cycle, and reason behind the need and great importance for them to hook you on email, web apps, etc.... Just as Yahoo and others did before. History really does repeat itself.

    6. Re:Economics in the Information Age by deraj123 · · Score: 1

      You either neglected to read the GP's post, or completely failed to comprehend it.

      At no point did he say that information was the only thing worth anything. He is, specifically, talking about the economics surrounding information. And he clearly makes the point that it costs money to produce, and so it must provide profit at some point. He also makes the point that direct charges for information break the process that has made the "information age" possible.

    7. Re:Economics in the Information Age by pileated · · Score: 1

      Spare me the "we live in the blah blah blah age." That's what is spouted forth in every 'age' as a substitute for real thought.

      There is little evidence that advertising does pay, and as the original article in WSJ points out, it's even less likely to do so in the coming months.

      Finally there are some people like me who have a real distaste for advertising. It may just be that more people would prefer to pay small micropayments than to sort through junk advertising. That's the point of some responses. Micropayments may be the answer for both producers and consumers of whatever the 'age' is offering.

    8. Re:Economics in the Information Age by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      50%? That seems rather high. Perhaps you are searching for penis extension more than most?

    9. Re:Economics in the Information Age by GPLHost-Thomas · · Score: 1

      I highly disagree on 2 points. 1- information is NOT cheaper than dirt. Crappy information is, not a valuable research and investigation from a professional journalist. That is not cheap at all, and has so much more value. 2- Google is a VERY bad example, as if you pay a lot, and have people click on your add, you can be on the "golden triangle", which means that your add will be sent as if they were "normal" result, in the first 3 answers, in order to fool the reader. IT IS interfering, and sometimes it's not even so relevant...

    10. Re:Economics in the Information Age by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      Businesses always suspected they were wasting a lot of money on advertising. But, it was a black box. Designed, by the admen, to be hard to judge whether it was effective or not.

      This is completely untrue. They had very advanced mathematical models of their advertising back in the day, and they correlated it to sales, tracked down to the number of items on a shelf in a given location. It didn't happen as *fast* as it does today, but it did happen.

      They knew when and where their ads were being delivered, and they knew when and where sales were made. What you said is sort of like saying 50 years ago, accounting was a black box. Just not factual.

      I think what has happened is that people are exposed to more advertising these days, so each ad is more ineffectual. 50 years ago, you weren't getting 10 pages of junk mail, a Sunday paper the size of a cofee-table book, miles of road signs, etc. They still had them, but they were much rarer.

      Ads suck? Then why are coke and pepsi the world-wide leaders? They sell the same carbonated sugar water as any other knock-off brand anywhere in the world. Moxie was the main competitor to coke, up until their decided to raid their advertising budget when the price of sugar rose. But, I bet they sold a better tasting product -- they just sold a whole lot less of it.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
  19. Chris Anderson!!! by Khazunga · · Score: 1
    This is an article by Chris Anderson, and the summary futzes it up and says nothing about the author. This isn't like reading some schmuck. Chris Anderson , editor of Wired, author of "The Long Tail" and the "Free" Wired article.

    Now, go RTFA...

    --
    If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you
  20. Re:Probably have to subscribe to slashdot after al by 0racle · · Score: 3, Funny

    if Slashdot had Karma coupons that we could all trade, we'd all be suckered in.

    You can't sell that! Karma can only be portioned out by the cosmos. -Homer

    --
    "I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
  21. Music production is free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Music production is free? That's news to me. As a musician, I've been going the cheaper route of recording and producing my own music. My total investment so far exceeds $40,000 in equipment and software. Then there's the countless years of practicing and honing my ability and knowledge, money spent on lessons, etc.

    Total I've made so far in the "new economy", where everyone thinks it should be free because they want to stick it to "the man" (read: record executives)? $4.48.

    1. Re:Music production is free? by clare-ents · · Score: 1

      In that case I suggest you give up the music career and do something more profitable instead like working in walmart.

      Of course if you'd rather play and earn $4.48 instead it's a win-win, I get cheap music, you get a better job than walmart.

      Here's a hint, in general you don't get paid to do things you enjoy. As they say in yorkshire, 'Where there's muck there's brass'.

      --
      Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. (Einstein)
    2. Re:Music production is free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My point wasn't how much I've made, it's that while the distribution is so cheap as to be negligible these days, the creation is far from cost-free. Many world-class musicians have resorted to doing movie and TV soundtracks and the like, becuase the people that end up being entertained (you) don't want to pay the people entertaining them. They somehow have this idea they are just entitled to it.

      Do I enjoy making music? Absolutley. Do I have a full time, salaried job that's sucking the life out of me because you think I can afford a 10000/1 payout ratio? Yup. I make a damn good living. I'd work 10x as hard at entertaining people if they'd fricking pay me for it, though. I'm not lucky enough to live in an area with a viable culture scene, so I resort to the internet... and that falls flat when I run into people with your mindset.

    3. Re:Music production is free? by justinlee37 · · Score: 1

      Nobody said production is free. It's just that the economies of scale have grown to be so large that lots of content is offered for free on the internet. And we're not *just* talking about music here, so get off your podium of self-importance; we're talking about slashdot, myspace, youtube, google, and all the other free services online that are generally supported by advertising revenue.

    4. Re:Music production is free? by DragonTHC · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I have about $4000 investment in instruments and gear.

      I produce for free. The music I make requires no investment. I pay nothing to record it. I pay nothing to master it. I pay only a small web hosting fee to distribute it.

      My music is free to anyone who wants to download it and listen. If someone wants to use my music for commercial purposes, they must negotiate a usage fee.

      --
      They're using their grammar skills there.
    5. Re:Music production is free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd work 10x as hard at entertaining people if they'd fricking pay me for it, though. I'm not lucky enough to live in an area with a viable culture scene, so I resort to the internet... and that falls flat when I run into people with your mindset.

      Aww...I'm sorry. I wasn't aware that I owed you a living. If your music is so great, why can't you get booked in a city that doesn't have "a viable culture scene"? Sounds like they're dying for you to come save them.

    6. Re:Music production is free? by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      If your music is free, then I can redistribute it all I want. Likely as not you will never find out. If you do, you lack sufficient resources to do anything about it.

      This is the model of the record company of the future - distributing music that they were able to obtain for free. No artist to pay, very low production costs and cheap distribution channels. For example, selling a CD to Walmart for $1.50 and they sell is for $5. They make lots of money on it and are happy to stock it, I make lots of money because the unit cost is $0.50.

      If you believe people are going to respect YOUR copyright when nobody is respecting THEIRS you are sadly mistaken. The business models that can evolve in an environment where copyright is meaningless will astonish you.

    7. Re:Music production is free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Haha... probably not worth replying, but this is twisting what I said, and with little to back it up. I never said anybody owed me jack. Up to the point, that is, that they enjoy my creations enough that they would like to listen to them anywhere they want. In those cases, I ask for .75c or less per track, for non-DRM mp3s, and if asked, I provide a CD quality wav at no additional cost to those that have payed.

      I've had at least one song ripped off a site more than it's been payed for, and someone even tagged it with the instruction "Rip it". That's just rude. Hell, it's not like I'd be able to stop someone from doing what they want with a track once they downloaded it. I'd rather people get to A) listen to the whole track before they pay, B) be able to move it to any device they have without restrictions if they do pay, and C) get to listen to it online anytime they wish if they don't think it's quite worth the price but still enjoy it.

      I've even thought of trying an honor system model where the track price would grant the right to distribute to friends, but if the friends wanted the same right, they'd be asked to pay for the same grant. See the previous paragraph and the responses to my parent post for reasons why I think that's not viable.

      As far as the scene where I live, many have tried for the last 30 years (and probably longer) to infuse culture here. Many better than I. All have failed. The normal life expectency for a venue here that hosts original music is probably around 2 years (when the business loan runs out). All the scene here supports is a couple 4 set cover bands that act as background music so all the military grunts can get laid.

    8. Re:Music production is free? by howlingmadhowie · · Score: 1

      40000 for equipment is a lot.

      on a similar note, a few years ago now i played the goldberg variations. i must have practised 2 or 3 hours a day for 6 months, so we're looking at 500 hours total practice time. if i gave concerts more often and played them really well, i can imagine myself recouping this investment in a few months.

    9. Re:Music production is free? by Peeteriz · · Score: 1

      What's the *marginal* cost for producing another copy of your song to a single additional customer, after you have made the "gold copy" of the song and given it to your first customer already?

      The numbers I have seen are below $0.50 for physical copies on CD and below $0.01 for purely digital copies.

    10. Re:Music production is free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a straw man. Would you honestly perform service work (say, writing automation scripts) for a company, and then accept the argument that they shouldn't pay you because the cost of running the script every time they want isn't measurable?

      I think not. You would have invested time, and probably money as well. Just like you, my time isn't free, and neither is the time of all the artists trying but hitting this new barrier to entry.

      I'm not saying you owe me anything, but you DO owe the artists (music, writers, actors, painters, whatever) who's work you take pleasure in listining/watching copies of their work. In essence, you are funding their ability to create the next set of works you might enjoy. If you don't pay, they have to find another source of income, then they don't have time to create, so you have less to to enjoy (other than rich brat pop-rock and a lot of first-effort-quick-failed material).

  22. Nobody rides for free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nothing is truly "free". An office using Teh Lunix still requires support staff, same thing with something like Open Office. Likewise, both require user retraining, which is such a huge expense as to be prohibitive.

    Also, how can Wikipedia be claimed as "free" when they JUST had a huge fundraiser?

    I guess the "free" has moved on to become "Free as in Leeching".

    1. Re:Nobody rides for free by jargon82 · · Score: 1

      Wait a second... you are saying wikipedia is leaching off of us? Or did I interpret that wrong?

    2. Re:Nobody rides for free by RoverDaddy · · Score: 2, Funny

      wikipedia is leaching off of us [citation needed]

      ... there, fixed that for you.

      --
      RETURN without GOSUB in line 1050
  23. A little essay on the topic... by thbb · · Score: 1

    Software is meant to be free!

    Assuming a competitive, market-based economy, any software of sufficiently broad usage is bound to become free, as its marginal production cost is null. The free software movement is not much more than the social expression of this basic economical fact. Software distinguishes itself from other works of the mind, such as music, in that its originality is by no means a part of its value or utility. As a consequence, the software industry is bound to live on the margins generated by software innovation and specialization

  24. So what by The+Cisco+Kid · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    Free Software isn't *intended* to be a "business model" for corporations to get filthy rich selling copies of information that they produce for a nickel each.

    http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

    1. Re:So what by justinlee37 · · Score: 1

      This isn't about free software. It's about free content. Don't sit there and try to say Myspace.com or Youtube.com aren't intended to be "business models."

  25. Re:Chris Anderson!!! perhaps, but not eye-opening by mileshigh · · Score: 1

    Don't bother to RTFA, everybody here already knows everything in that article.

  26. Slashdot is free? by Sybert42 · · Score: 1

    I've had all pages ad-free for awhile.

  27. The perfect business model for free software by V!NCENT · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Create something with a large codebase that other people want to use in their own free software application or game, like a very nice raytracing engine for example.

    Now here's the catch; nobody likes to learn a large codebase because it takes a lot of time. Especialy free software developpers because they usualy don't have a lot of time on their hands as they are doing projects in their spare time. So here's what you do to get money; sell detailed documentation and maps of the code of your project. ThÃt would be your product, not the source code.

    If you make sure your code is not ugly and unreadable then you'll probably sell a lot of documentation. People that create free software would probably not hasitate at all as they buy OpenGL, C, C++ and ruby books as well.

    Your product is completely ethical in terms of free software. It is not nessecary for a developper to buy your documentation, but they will probably do it out of respect and because they just want to save time. In essence, you are selling someone time. Isn't that just the greatest thing?

    --
    Here be signatures
    1. Re:The perfect business model for free software by abigor · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Unfortunately, your docs - most likely a downloadable pdf or similar - will end up getting torrented within the first five copies sold. If you don't believe me, go to The Pirate Bay and search around for technical docs and even entire books.

    2. Re:The perfect business model for free software by V!NCENT · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The same thing goes for proprietary software as well. The entire point here is searching for a free software business model you can make money with.

      Piracy is a factor in every digital business sector and there is no way one could possibly avoid that so you might as well don't take that into account.

      --
      Here be signatures
    3. Re:The perfect business model for free software by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      Well, one answer to piracy is to address a segment of the market that doesn't believe in piracy or faces consequences should piracy be discovered. Law enforcement, for example.

      Products specifically targeted at law enforcement aren't going to be pirated all that much.

    4. Re:The perfect business model for free software by smoker2 · · Score: 1

      Another quite elegant solution to piracy is to use the customers name and credit card number as the serial for the product.

      eReader do this on their 'paid for' ebooks and I certainly wouldn't torrent my own name and credit card details. Sure they might be stolen from my pc, but surely that's my fault and responsibility. Those details are never reported over the net BTW, the ebook is encrypted using those values. Sure you could probably copy and paste the whole thing into plain text, but that's a lot of hassle to save somebody else $10. A little steganography and even copy and pasted text could be traced back to the original purchaser.

    5. Re:The perfect business model for free software by V!NCENT · · Score: 1

      Fake name and stolen credit card number... Pirates gain, others lose.

      In any case copy protection doesn't work and in most cases it hurts people that do not pirate. In this case it brings a huge security risk for the legitamit buyer.

      Please your customers and forget about these so-called 'anti'-piracy messures.

      --
      Here be signatures
  28. Re:Probably have to subscribe to slashdot after al by m.ducharme · · Score: 1

    I knew I shouldn't have posted in this thread! I knew it! I knew I'd want to use a mod point!

    --
    Rule of Slashdot #0: You and people like you are not representative of the larger population. - A.C.
  29. Re:Probably have to subscribe to slashdot after al by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You must be thinking of the Catholic Church.

  30. Re:"Let's Kill Marketing" by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 1

    Look up the history of Moxie. (Wikipedia doesn't go into enough detail). They tried killing marketing and killed sales.

    --
    My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
  31. Re: Zero Obligatory Cost ... Music!! by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 1

    "We declare we shall download whatever we like, and upon our whims, buy a CD or some iTunes tracks now and then - if we feel like it".

    --
    My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
  32. diydrones.com by heroine · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Check out diydrones.com. He sells a super cheap circuit board that interoperates with stuff most of his customers already have. What's another $30 when you've already invested $300? He gives away the source code & plans, but puts a ton of effort in publicity doing odd projects like the blimp autopilot, posting frequent firmware updates, & growing a social network around the product.

  33. When did "production" become cost-free? by westlake · · Score: 5, Insightful
    The geek is never honest when he conflates production and distribution.

    The P2P rip doesn't generate the $150 million dollars needed to produce "Monsters vs. Aliens" or the $40 million needed for the low budget "Serenity."

    If the geek wants to see more films that appeal to him he has to find a realistic solution to the problem of how to pay for them.

    Otherwise production simply ends or shifts to more profitable markets. "High School Musical" and a "Hotel for Dogs."

    1. Re:When did "production" become cost-free? by martin-boundary · · Score: 1
      Why should the onus be on the geeks? Let's look at it realistically: Most geeks don't make movies, they only watch them if they happen to exist. You make it sound like the geeks are lording it over people so that movies get produced just for them.

      Those who *want* to make movies are the artsy types and the hollywood types. They *want* to make movies regardless of whether geeks watch them or not. Ergo, the onus is on *them* to come up with a realistic mechanism to make money doing the thing they love, namely making movies.

      And no, it's not easy, because P2P and digital copying is a disruptive technology that changes the underlying basis for their past business models. But I have news: the technology isn't going away, so those who *want* to make movies better work out their priorities about living in a mansion and what a typical movie should cost overall. It's a bog standard economic ajustment - you produce and charge what the market will bear, and when the market changes you change with it.

      They should start by getting their accountants to estimate the likely percentage of "piracy" and taking that as a normal thing when they figure out how many people are going to pay to watch their movie, and then they can write down a budget figure for the whole movie, etc.

      Budgeting: it's not just for other people.

    2. Re:When did "production" become cost-free? by rastoboy29 · · Score: 1

      No.  It's not the geek's job to figure that out.  It's the job of the production company who wants to make money making films.

      They could start by dramatically lowering their prices.  They can actually compete with free by offering a quality rip for a small amount of money, except that they would actually get a little money as opposed to nothing.

  34. The basic fallacy by SecurityGuy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Is that MC is 0. It isn't, though it may be small. It also doesn't cover fixed costs at all. If I spend $1,000,000 writing the next killer app and give it away for the cost of distribution, it's pretty easy to see I'm out the original $1,000,000. If I give it away for literally free, I'm out the original $1,000,000 and I've picked up the cost of distribution, too.

    Prices drop to MC in the face of (perfect) competition, yes, but before that happens consumers are paying more than cost, and willingly so because the product is worth more to them than they pay for it. If you don't have credible evidence customers will do that, you don't invest in developing the product.

    The only reason free software works is massive charity on the part of developers and project managers who get non-monetary benefits out of being involved in the project, or in some cases, corporate sponsorship.

    Note, too, that business segments which involve perfect competition are not generally places you want to be. You are a commodity. Everybody, top to bottom, gets squeezed.

    1. Re:The basic fallacy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only reason free software works is massive charity on the part of developers and project managers who get non-monetary benefits out of being involved in the project, or in some cases, corporate sponsorship.

      Amen. I also know several developers who spend their paid work hours writing "free" software when they should be working on company projects. Hmmm... free software indeed.

      Note, too, that business segments which involve perfect competition are not generally places you want to be. You are a commodity. Everybody, top to bottom, gets squeezed.

      Amen again.

      Ya' know, I keep getting the impression that the majority of you would like to be out of work.

      Writing complex software ain't easy. Maintaining and supporting it ain't exactly a fcuk!n' walk in the park either. Good developers should be well compensated. Just because any jackass can call him/herself a dev doesn't mean they are.

      Free Lunch = Bull sh!t

  35. ATLAS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    HAS JUST SHRUGGED

          This plays into my point-

      "Be prepared to learn how to trade your talents and goods with people without exchanging bits of paper. The dollar could soon be as hard to get as it is worthless. Seriously."

          Now, explain to me how the last bastion of american industry, digital commerce, has benefitted from this new and free economic model and how this has nothing to do with our current economic downturn at all not even in the slightest

          Now chew on this, we send dollars to china for hard goods they produce and what do they do, pirate american digital property and in some cases they even pirate hard goods.

        Of course the Slashtard has no problem with Chinas digital piracy since his mantra is code want to be free and they are not even considering chinas general piracy problem beyond digital goods.

    With all of this in mind and just using China as an example of a global trend where american dollars flow out but dont return because what we primarily produce is pirated

    Conclusion, be prepared to work for free you fucking dopes and not only will Atlas Shrug in that instance but he's gonna kick you in the teeth

  36. Re:Probably have to subscribe to slashdot after al by Panaflex · · Score: 1

    Of course! We invented everything...

    Small per-sin fees, monthly subscription tithes, and even commodity indulgences with tiered discount models.

    But now... we're GIVING IT AWAY! That's right.... Come on down and be sin-free TODAY!

    - Subject to contract terms and dogma. Donations appreciated. Not valid in the States of Iran & Saudi Arabia.
    Yes, I love being Catholic.

    --
    I said no... but I missed and it came out yes.
  37. In kind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are already being paid, just you aren't seeing it. You are being paid "in kind", with the cheap music you get from other hard working musicians. Same as most FOSS coders, they get paid in kind from access to a LOT of other devs work. And if music is as important to you as you say, that is a lot of payment. Now if you want cash, you will have to tour and play live, and sell disks and swag at the venues. Digital copying is star trek styled replicator technology, humanity's first.

      It is an incredible breakthrough in the goal to eliminate want.

      Tangible products will be next..and eventually..we'll be able to eliminate this whole "job" thing and the entire concept of "money" and needing it. That is a worthwhile goal and you should be proud to be part of it, not complaining about it.

      I know it is hard now, being the first "business" in the modern age to be rendered obsolete, but really, it has only been a relatively short blip in human history where musicians could get paid for anything but live performances. In our human history, it is a very short window, and you have no real expectations for it to be anything other than a very temporary stint, you just happen to be at that juncture.

        I've had several means of income go poof on me, some factory jobs in particular, one from automation, three others from offshoring to cheaper labor places. My labor was made obsolete (in the society and area I live in), much as I was totally content with it and making reasonable money at it. Oh well, life goes on, I found other things to do, and I still have hobbies and I write and I hope that what people read of mine they enjoy, because I really don't expect much in the way of cash payment from it (although at times I have done well from it), just helping to add to the pool of what is out there that people might be able to use, and enjoying my "in kind" payments I receive from other's writings that I have access to, from forum and blog posts to books.

          I *like* it, I am grateful to be part of this age where we can really make progress this way. If the "job" I have now for the cash I need goes away or is made obsolete from tech breakthroughs, I don't care, because I know then that billions will "profit" from those tech advances and we all will be much better off for it. And I'll do something else then, whatever still needs to be done that humans still need and can't be replicated, and still enjoy my writing and my other hobbies.

  38. slashdot subscriptions by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    I mostly *read* slashdot, not comment on it, so a paid account is worthless to me.

    I'm on disability and don't work so I post a lot on slashdot. Last week I checked into subscribing and there was only one way to subscribe, via PayPal, showing. I don't have a PayPal account so I emailed to see if there was another way. It took a few days and the answer was no. I'm not going to sign up with PayPal just so I can subscribe to slashdot.

    Falcon

  39. Honest answer? by tacokill · · Score: 1

    You want an honest answer?

    We have those contracts and licenses because different parts of the world want things on different terms than we want to sell them. Can't you just hear France or the EU complaining about iPhone not being sold by competitors?....wait....they already are! That's just one example of 1000's that have existed since global trade began.

    The point here is that there is always some group of people (usually backed by a military force) who want things done on their terms. So we create contracts and define the terms to both our liking. It's just as much your contract (or your country's) as it is theirs. You fix it!

  40. Excuse me, and what exactly costs $150 mn ? by unity100 · · Score: 1

    special effects ? CGI ? scenery ? on-site shots ?

    no. majority of film budgets are given to stars, who live lavishly off those pay. just read below article, and that's just one google search :

    http://www.forbes.com/2008/07/22/actors-hollywood-movies-biz-media-cx_lr_0722actors.html

    see, in total, only the 'leading' people have walked away with $487 mn in pay last year. thats half a billion. half a billion is paid to actors.

    its not the acting, its not the effort. noone is getting a plastic surgery or a skin recoloring or transplant or anything to act. its just a race of prestige in between actors and actresses. i want more pay. why ? because a certain someone i know and compete with got such a pay and i want more ...

    no sir. noone can justify what shit we are being put through while paying $20 a dvd, while an actor gets $80 mn for a few movies.

    1. Re:Excuse me, and what exactly costs $150 mn ? by westlake · · Score: 1
      no. majority of film budgets are given to stars, who live lavishly off those pay

      The promoter has always known that stars are the best guarantee of a return at the box office.

      P T Barnum and Jenny Lind split the return of her first US tour in the 1850s - when the best seats went for $150 in gold.

  41. Re:Probably have to subscribe to slashdot after al by meringuoid · · Score: 1
    I mean, if Slashdot had Karma coupons that we could all trade, we'd all be suckered in.

    I hit the karma cap in, what, early 2001? Just about the same time as it changed to 'Excellent' to stop people obsessing over the karma cap, anyway. Since then I've made thousands of comments of which many hundreds hit +5. If they introduce a karma trading market, I'll insist upon being reimbursed for eight years' back karma.

    --
    Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
  42. They're missing one thing: access charges by sweet_petunias_full_ · · Score: 1

    All of the people accessing the internet are having to pay some sort of charge to connect, whether it be the monthly ISP subscription fee or some other fee (either directly or indirectly) and so it's like we've all been pooling our efforts in subsidizing the cost to produce this giant shared storehouse of information for years now. And giant it is. That's why there's so much of just about anything, and that's why any one piece of information isn't worth that much.

    Thus, it should come as no surprise to anyone (except those ordered to have their heads in the sand) that the most reasonable going price for information is somewhere around $0.

    --
    You can't send a takedown notice to an already printed newspaper.
  43. You could "donate" to your favorite websites/utils by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    If you really want to support your favorite website or utils, many (but not all) have options to donate money via paypal.

    Funny -- I've done that on items that are 'free'...where the owner/maintainer keeps offering upgrades/updates for 'free', but for some utils that have *converted* from a "free-updates-for-life* to a pay-per-update model, I've stopped getting upgrades. I don't use most of my utils ***that*** often that I feel like I want to buy a 30$ upgrade every year -- ***ESPECIALLY*** when I've reported "problems", or suggested or asked for features/upgrades -- and then they've gone through either 2 upgrade cycles OR a year of upgrades.

    I've had more than a couple utils that either started by requiring pay, or converted to pay -- one went from ~$70 for an X server, up to maybe $200-300 now -- but they add in a bunch of stuff I don't use or need -- but the topper was when I missed an upgrade, they required I pay an extra 'upgrade' fee for each version I had skipped!!! The "missed-upgrade" fee was about 40% of what I would have paid if I had purchased the upgrades, so it was still worth the pay out -- but after 1 of those rip-off upgrades, I searched for and found a *free* replacement that offered what I wanted (none of the extras I didn't need and wasn't using) and that was the last time I purchased something from them.

    I used to tell some vendors I'd bailed due to their not adding features, or fixing bugs, or costing too much for value I was using it for, but it's been a long time -- because I got the impression most didn't really care.

    But when I *have* extra (maybe once a year, I try to donate some money across a few of the projects I use -- $10 here, $20 there, try to spread it around. I donate anonymously when I have the option -- don't want them to be doing favors just because I pay them. I try to look for those who are genuinely nice and/or useful. I'm more generous with those who are 'nice' in online or support forums, but even give to 'a-holes' if they have a product I genuinely think is good and find useful (they just don't get my 2-3X multiplier for 'niceness'). ;^)

    Anon for obvious reasons..

  44. In the ideal world by coryking · · Score: 1

    Our law dudes would go after the person who put the paid content on a p2p network. This being the internet, doing so is currently difficult and not fool proof.

    Ideally, you'd go to jail for stealing somebodies intellectual property just like you would stealing any physical property. And I'm dead serious. And if you aren't as serious as I am, you clearly don't understand F/OSS depends on the same protection of intellectual property non-F/OSS does.

  45. To bad it makes the software devs worthless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A Stallman approved Free World would make tech support guys get paid more than programmers. Worse, once the support centers become the profit drivers of a company there is no incentive to make a quality product. The worse the product, the more support calls you get!

  46. American Idol and X Factor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Micropayment systems have existed for years and work very well. Just ask Simon Cowell, the driver behind American Idol in the USA and X Factor in the UK. They make their money primarily on the micropayments that people phone in during the shows.

  47. A cent a year? by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    For all what I can watch?

    Count me in.

    A cent per comic?

    Not in my whole life.

    There is always somebody willing to give you something for free in the net, so if you want to monetize your efforts then what you charge should be so negligible that it feels like if the service you provide is almost free.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  48. Laws of economics by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

    Digital goods -- from music and video to Wikipedia -- can be produced and distributed at virtually no marginal cost, and so, by the laws of economics, price has gone the same way, to $0.00.

    If this was the whole explanation, it would not make sense "by the laws of economics". "Virtually no" is not the same thing as "no"; there is a marginal cost and it needs to be paid. Plus, there are fixed costs, and even if the marginal costs per unit were $0, producers who can't recoup their fixed costs would be losing money. If many people are getting something at no cost, someone else is paying those costs. Usually, what is free is either charity of one form of another (where the producer--or at least the people funding the producer--derives subjective utility from other people getting the benefit of the good, and thus is willing to eat the cost), or promotion of one form or another (where the producer gives the good away for free to build exposure and future profitability for that good, or to build demand for another good, that the producer can then profit from.) Sun doesn't give the JRE and JDK away for free (and Microsoft doesn't give away the free versions of Visual Studio) because of an irrational expectation that $0/copy times a really large number of copies will somehow make back their costs associated with those products, they do it because they expect it will increase demands for the goods and services that they charge money for enough to warrant the costs.

    Now, the low marginal costs of digital goods delivered online make both of these kinds of free goods a lot more practical, so there is a lot more free.