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Gamers, EFF Speak Out Against DRM
Last month, we discussed news that the FTC would be examining DRM to see if it needs regulation. They set up a town hall meeting for late March, and part of that effort involved requesting comments from potential panelists and the general public. Ars Technica reports that responses to the request have been overwhelmingly against DRM, and primarily from gamers. The Electronic Frontier Foundation also took the opportunity to speak out strongly against DRM, saying flat out that "DRM does not prevent piracy," and suggesting that its intended purpose is "giving some industry leaders unprecedented power to influence the pace and nature of innovation and upsetting the traditional balance between the interests of copyright owners and the interests of the public." Their full public comments (PDF) describe several past legal situations supporting that point, such as Sony's fight against mod chips, Blizzard's DMCA lawsuit against an alternative to battle.net, and Sony's XCP rootkit.
Why bother to fight DRM? DRM is not the problem, the problem is that distributing DRM workarounds is illegal. Instead, why not go after the root problem, the DMCA?
Palm trees and 8
I was so excited for this title with all of the cool features and ideas.
Then I read all the stuff about the DRM and I totally passed on it.
Fuck Spore and fuck all the other games that force DRM onto our computers.
World of Warcraft does it right, imo. You have an account and you log in. They authorize you. Warden is non-intrusive.
Blizzard got Wow's auth system right, imo.
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
"DRM does not prevent piracy"
Which implies that piracy is an undesirable thing. Therefore we shouldn't be focused on DRM as the sole solution to the piracy problem, but as part of a larger set of steps to eliminate the problem.
Either piracy is a bad thing which ought to be dealt with, or it is a good thing which should be encouraged.
The EFF's point (as is typical for them) is full of rhetoric but fails to truly understand the issue. It's a shame they are on the right side because they aren't really helping.
DRM Killer, available later this fall featuring SecureROM.
saying flat out that "DRM does not prevent piracy,"
I guess in the gaming and Hacking communities puting up a system that prevents you from doing something is like saying "look what i did now break it"
Its not my fault, someone put a wall in my way.
Auth systems work. By keeping the bulk of the game functionality on the server side, and requiring a login, 99% of DRM issues are covered. You could argue that a company could provide the game engine for free as a method of enticing people to register and pay to play.
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
I really wish people would stop the arrogant assumption that they can always work around whatever DRM manufacturers create, even when they all get together to work against the public. Breaking cryptography is HARD. Some crypto is UNBREAKABLE in any reasonable amount of time, using any known techniques. The UK's Sky TV, for instance, has been using the same crypto on their satellite broadcasts for years now, with no cracks available.
The problem is that I don't see the political establishment listening to "a bunch of gamers and the EFF."
I think it tying together the Sony Root Kit issue with farms of own machines used for SPAMing, scaming, or organized crime would get a little attention.
The biggest problem I have had with DRM is that I rented Ratatouille last year and was unable to play it on a standard DVD player, unable to play it on two different computer DVD players, and of course unable to make a copy (which I only tried because I couldn't play it.) The disk cause me to have to unplug and plug back in my Toshiba DVD player to even get it to eject, it totally locked up the player.
Think Deeply.
The whole copyright agreement is to allow exclusive distribution rights to specific material or content for a limited amount of time, after which the works would be released to the public domain.
So far, the industry has managed to have copyright duration extended to unreasonable durations increasing the likelihood that after the copyright term expires, it will no longer be available for access or distribution. But that isn't harmful enough. Now they want to keep the works locked up in an encryption scheme that will likely make copyrighted materials extinct long before the copyright term expires as no one will be able to access it after the term expires.
This is a complete and total breech of the copyright agreement with the people of any given nation that respects copyright under law.
So is this about all DRM or just stupid shit like SecuROM and Starforce, which only harm customers?
I don't mind Steam and Impulse, which I've come to view as services instead of DRM schemes. They provide unlimited installations on any computer, auto updates, community features, great weekend and holiday sales, offline mode, etc.
Now if they can't crack something and feel the need to resort to purchasing a solution then some crtpyo may be truly uncrackable. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/12/nsa_offers_billions_for_skype_pwnage/
How convenient. I just bought a copy of Left4Dead brought it home and tried to install it only to discover the CD key that came with the game was already in use (which is odd since the game was in a sealed package). So I went off to valve support to try and get the situation remedied. Their support is anything but efficient or helpful. So then I went back to the store where I bought the game to get an exchange. Wouldn't you know it they have a policy of not having anything to do with games that have been opened. So for the time being thanks to copy protection I'm out $50 for a legitimate copy of a game. Add this story to the big board. Next time I want a game I'll just download the cracked version.
I have nothing compelling to say
Did the FSF really say "DRM does not prevent piracy," ?
I can understand why copyright holders might like to demonise copyright violation by comparing it to violent theft, but why does the FSF have to fall for and even perpetuate this junk ? Leave the word Piracy for nautical robbers. Call this copyright violation, even the more emotive term IP theft if you like. But it's NOT piracy.
Even though people hate it, companies which spend billions of dollars to generate new IP need to protect their assets, the same way a physical store uses anti-shoplifting tags.
The economy is a mess, and piracy is commonplace. This is why countries are hammering out treaties like ACTA.
I have yet to see DRM that interferes with legit users. The biggest complainers are pirates.
I think the fundamental issue is that the DMCA and DRM allows the "industry" to write their own laws.
With the DMCA and the anti-circumvention provisions, the restriction code has the power of law - circumventing it is illegal.
So they can ignore whatever fair use privilege we used to enjoy, because fair use privileges aren't guaranteed rights: if you can't make use of it for whatever reason - tough; they're not required to provide you with tools or systems to give you what you want, even if it could be legal.
So this all boils down to the fact that we've lost all fair use in copyright law (maybe not in theory, but definitely in practice), and as such, copyright has become completely unbalanced in favour of the copyright owners.
The tradeoff was: a temporary monopoly on distribution with some fair use exceptions, in return for a rich public domain later on.
Not only have we lost fair use, we've also lost the public domain part later on. Because the DRM on copyrighted works that end up in the public domain isn't going to magically disappear.
All we're left with is "a monopoly on distribution" - that's not what copyright was supposed to be.
World of Warcraft does it right, imo. You have an account and you log in. They authorize you. Warden is non-intrusive.
So how would one "do it right" on a handheld gaming system that isn't a cell phone, or another single-player gaming environment?
Sometimes I think Slashdot invented the EFF.
It certainly goes out of it's way to keep it alive. Certainly it's efforts in this area are way disproportionate to the EFF's actual credibility in legal circles, where they are the Britney Spears in a boardroom full of King Crimsons.
I do know of a couple that bought a Sony entertainment system. The system has the DRM built in. Now logic would tell you that as long as the DVD's are compliant with US rules as to format etc, then that DVD you put in the player should work. This is not the case though. They never know if the DVD will work in the DVD player. So half of their DVD movie collection wont play in the Player. They bought a second DVD player, and use this for those DVD's that wont play in the Sony.
Sony may argue stating that the movies wont play because they are pirated. They are not. They were DVD's bought from reputable stores.
This is how bad DRM has become. Consumers are at the mercy of manufacturers of DRM laden products.
The DMCA is another point entirely as it's only for USA citizens.
Three problems with this line of reasoning:
Auth systems work. By keeping the bulk of the game functionality on the server side, and requiring a login, 99% of DRM issues are covered.
So I guess the remaining 1 percent is that you're now completely ignoring the following markets:
If what you said were true, there would be no E-rated games, no Nintendo DS games, and certainly no E-rated DS games.
Seriously? Gamers and the EFF? OK, I understand that perception != reality here, but in the media this could easily read, "criminals and hippies against DRM.". I mean, honestly - gamers don't have the best reputation in the media. Oh, those guys that get hopped up on caffeine and drugs after a round of GTA and go shoot people?" The EFF - wait, those are those commie hippies right?
Again the reality may be far different, but I would think those are the LAST groups you'd want being our main representatives in the fight against DRM.
It's good to see people speaking out against DRM, but I'm not sure if it's enough to stop the huge plans at work to push through stricter and stronger DRM.
Read this short story about the future with DRM. We are becoming frighteningly close to making it a reality.
The use of the word "piracy" to describe copyright infringement is as old as the 1709 Statute of Anne
--- when the Black Flag still flew over the Caribbean.
The geek is NEVER going to win this argument.
It is specifically for this reason that I haven't purchased a single Sony product since then (for the only exception of blank disks).
"The presence of unencrypted transport stream rips of HDTV broadcasts proves the existence"
Not necessarily. I've noticed that almost every HD cable box has a component out that supports 1080i. There are boxes that will capture this stuff (for Myth as one possible use). The 1080p rips out there likely came from BluRay cracks.
In many ways, it's like WMP files from MS. The one genuine crack disappeared pretty quickly, and has not been repeated. However, I'm not convinced it's because WMP is "hard" to crack, rather it's because it's just easier to rip a CD or use MP3's already "in the wild".
I like to think of breaking DRM like water in a vessel. The water doesn't need lots of ways to get out, it only needs one. And when it comes to music, it's not worth breaking the DRM. For video, it's worth it, so it's broken.
But the people that make the decisions didn't listen.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I gave up on PC gaming years ago... The last commercial game I purchased came with a Starforce infection. I still play older games from the "90s (and games from Id Software). I also enjoy independant games. The rest of the commercial game industry deserves to crash again (like in the "80s) for not treating their customers with a shred of respect. Ubisoft, EA: you will not be missed!
Speaking personally, many years ago, copy protection most certainly *did* prevent me from pirating games. Instead I bought used copies, which came with documentation (i.e. which the game prompted you for), adding to the "resale value" of used games and potentially causing people to purchase more new (since they can turn around and sell them to someone else, reducing their overall cost). Had there been no copy protection I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have bothered to part with my money.
Is that there is no law saying when it expires.
There will come a time when the copyright of a game expires. (Yes, it will take decades.) At that time, how can a game be fairly copied if the DRM is still in place?
Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
> People act like consuming entertainment media is air that you need to survive.
Humans need to create art. It's what makes us human. Art exists to be consumed. We forget that at the risk of losing our humanity. The desire to create and share art freely is no less than a battle for the soul of humanity itself. There's nothing fucking pathetic about it.
It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
Hmm, being a kid with time to waste back then, I just figured out the answers via trial and error (there were about a dozen questions total). And of course your example is pointless as today answers to every question, along with cracked executables, are freely available on the web.
In other news - door locks don't prevent B&E and only create problems for the users who lockout themselves. Gamers and EFF don't seem to care much saying flat out: "Why would I ever use the front door when everything I need is here in the basement, duh!".
I hope they ban DRM. It's not fair to the consumer to not really have full access to the media. If I buy a game, there should be no way it can be blocked from me playing it. It's totally ridiculous that you can buy access to a game and then not be able to use it because of DRM! Example, if a DRM server goes down then you can't play. That is just wrong. Most people won't boycott and just put up with it because they have no choice if they want to play the game. It's so wrong.
My point was that DRM has, at times, actually dissuaded some people from pirating software. It's possible that technical reasons make it unfeasible now, but that's different from just saying "DRM never works".
every time I read such a story I begin to wonder why the NSA (or the [German] BKA or whatever agency) interested in eavesdropping of Skype conversation don't _buy_ the fscking company - afaik is ebay not really interested in this subsidiary...
Build a time machine, send all us gamers back fifteen years, and make all these goddamn idiots stop fucking copying every single fucking release that came out so piracy never becomes a problem that, in the minds of the publishers, it warrants such horribly intrusive anti-piracy measures in the first place. Seriously, this was brought on ourselves, and while the Securom solution is inelegant, ineffective and outright unacceptable, when you've got thousands of people sitting on major torrents for every new game release, the publishers start to get more and more restrictive in an attempt to stop this shit.
Oh, for a time when cd-checks were the worst you would encounter.
(Oh, and remove all region encoding as well. My god that stuff shits me.)
I don't see a problem implementing any of this.
I think the anti-DRM forces should proceed carefully here. The Law of Unintended Consequences has a way of biting you in the ass. One important thing to keep in mind is that in addition to the question of "Does DRM work?", an equally important consideration is "Do game publishers *think* it works". I predict that if DRM were somehow decided to be a detriment to the consumer and declared illegal, there would be a mass exodus of game publishers (and possibly developers) from the PC world, fearful of the impending piracy wave. Those few left would make MMOs exclusively, as there is, for all intents and purposes, built-in anti-piracy by the very nature of such games.
To put it another way, be careful what you ask for -- you just might get it.
Due to circumstances beyond my control, I am master of my fate and captain of my soul.
You have to be shitting me. Game sales (of good games) have been on the up for years despite any sort of piracy/copying.
As for region-encoding, who do you think is to blame for that? Do you know why it exists? Purely to increase profit and control, which is the same reason to release retarded copy-protection methods: (supposed).
While you're absolutely correct that ex post facto refers to criminalizing something after a person has committed the act, then arresting them, I would like to point out that the copyright extensions should have been unconstitutional for a very different reason.
I believe it was Eldred v. Ashcroft that pointed out that they were violating the "limited times" clause of the section of the constitution authorizing copyright laws by doing retroactive extensions. The only reason the Supreme Court didn't uphold that argument is because they thought there were enough other advantages to the law that they didn't want to upset the boat, though they indicated that they might not look so favorably upon another retroactive extension if there wasn't a compelling enough reason for it.
Of course, by the time of the next extension, who knows who the Supremes will be or whether they'll even care about those issues any more...
"I have yet to see DRM that interferes with legit users. "
Having never seen such a thing, you are so bold to claim such a thing never exists.
You know, it's funny. You read a book one time about the solar system and believe there are many planets, despite the fact that you can't see any of them. Yet despite the fact that authorities on digital rights tells you that DRM interferes with legal uses of media you won't believe that.
How do you reconcile that you choose randomly to believe in certain things but not others? Do you like to use "The Gut" (http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/218576/february-11-2009/truth-from-the-gut) to tell you what's right?
Can't argue with a man who uses his gut instead of facts.
Certainly it's efforts in this area are way disproportionate to the EFF's actual credibility in legal circles, where they are the Britney Spears in a boardroom full of King Crimsons.
Equally irrelevant, as corporate tools?
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Nice plug, but I'm fairly when people think about games they're thinking about something a little more polished than somebody's hand-drawings.
There are plenty of decent, DRM-less games though. It was recently noted to me that world of goo (which I'm not affiliated with) even has a Linux version available, so for those that are anti-windows in addition to anti-DRM... have at 'er.
In the software world, there are some issues relating to privacy which concern me regarding DRM. I don't even have a problem with DRM that allows me to pay a lower price for something I want if I allow a hardware lock-in (iPod).
What does concern me however is DRM that discontinues working. When I purchase something, even if it's "The Rights to use it", I expect to continue to have those rights. An excellent example is a Microsoft High Definition DVD (the technology they released as a HD DVD before HD-DVD and BluRay came around.) which no longer works because Microsoft killed off the DRM server since they obsoleted the format. This left me with at least one $30 disc that will never work again since there's no key server anymore.
There should be regulation that requires that media purchased is guaranteed to continue working so long as the user has hardware to play it. It should not be possible to cut it off from a central source.
When I purchase audiobooks from Audible.com or Borders, the first thing I do is to remove the DRM since I don't expect to be able to a year later. I've invested thousands of dollars in audiobooks and I don't intend to risk my investment because they're worried someone else will pirate them.
I have stopped using services that implemented DRM which is too complex or time consuming to remove. I won't actually buy BluRay until I'm sure that the DRM issues are all sorted. Meaning that once BluRay becomes obsolete, I'll be able to reliably rip all my discs into another format. I currently own over 500 DVDs and have invested an average of $20 into each of them. I protect them by ripping them and keeping the originals stored in a carton in a dry dark place.
While I see DRM having very little use since the people who will pirate the game will use a crack anyway. DRM is little more than a deterrent that punishes the honest people.
Perhaps I'm just in a bad mood today, but... what good are these discussions?
The whole DRM mess has been chewed over and over and over again, and we always get the same results:
* DRM or not DRM doesn't matter: piracy is around 80% either way. This has not changed for 25 years.
* Company managers are too reality-disfunct to realise this, and are willing to pay for (expensive) DRM systems to include in their product.
* Dito politicians, usually bought by the industry, and who are worthless by definition anyway.
* Nobody will do a boycott.
* We cannot change any of these points.
Possible solutions:
* Buy the original with DRM and live with it.
* But the original with DRM and download a pirate copy.
* Download a pirate copy only.
* Refuse any DRM games, buy from the indy market instead.
Note on the last point: I bought very very few 'normal' games in the last few years (I refuse DRM), but quite a few from these interesting small companies. Cheaper, ofter better (even if the graphics usually aren't), lots of fun, and you have the feeling that you're supporting the good programmers directly instead of some worthless CEOs 3rd Mercedes 500SEC.
I bought (and can highly recommend) games like "World of Goo" or "Galactic Civilization II".
HOWEVER: some indy games have now come out with DRM. Beware of these! A good example would be "Defense Grid". An excellent, cheap game, but sold only via STEAM or Greenhouse, both of which are a form of DRM not allowing you to play the game without internet access. And even if you install them on a different PC (eg at work, with net access) and transfer the registry info, it won't work as it's registered to your CPU ID.
(Yes, I'm very pissed off about this specific example. Particularly as the support from Greenhouse does not exist).
Free PC version of ChipWits at http://www.breueronline.de/klaus/chipwits/
I have been thinking over this issue for such a long time, and I must say, I do not have an answer. On the one hand you have a lot of unethical people who have no problem downloading and using illegal copies of games or music. Before the internet this was a problem, but not a huge one. Someone bought an album, and his friends borrowed it and made a tape. Very small scale stuff. Now one person buys the album, and hosts it on a torrent, and thousands of people can copy it illegally. Then you have the unethical practices of the copyright owners on the other side of the coin. Because there was little that could effectively be done to stop the wave of illegal copying, industry decided to add Digital Rights Management to their music CDs and software etc. At first this was easily broken, so they went for more complex versions. This stuff infects machines, causes huge problems, and at some points can even make you vulnerable to other malicious software. Horrible solution. The DRM on Spore has lead it to be the most popular illegal download on the net as far as games go. This illegal downloading has caused its creators to lose more money then they ever would have to illegal copiers if they had no DRM at all! But what is the solution? Until the community owns up to the fact that they are doing something unethical by distributing someone elses work without permission, companies will work on DRM. Until the companies admit that their attempts at DRM is part of the problem, and not the solution, people will continue to download illegally. You will always get those unethical hacks who download illegally. These people are mostly just clueless kids. I get two or three of them a year in college. Most of the time once they see the ethics involved, they make efforts to change, and buy their music/games/movies (then they may download a DRM free version to keep their computers clean). They have been around forever. However, if the industry spent the amount of money they have in development and prosecution, and instead invested in ethics education, they would have a lot less of the problem. However instead of looking at people as inherently good, they look at them as inherently bad, and the battle lines (ones that were never necessary) were drawn.
Open Source: Eroding the Digital Divide
As long as content providers are putting in shit that hinders the legitimate buyer, I'm staying out of DVDs, CDs and computer games. Everyone else should just do the same. Problem is enough people still buy so they have no incentive to get rid of the shit!