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Powering Restaurants WIth Deep Fried Fuel

Mike writes "Here's a brilliant idea for biofuels: rather than filtering used fry oil for use in vehicles, why not simplify matters and use it to heat and power the restaurant itself? The VegaWatt turns used vegetable oil into clean heat and energy for restaurants, eliminating the dirty and costly mess of oil disposal while producing 10-25% of the electricity needed to run a small restaurant. It also produces fuel free of chemicals or fossil fuels, unlike standard biodiesel."

148 comments

  1. Soylent heat is people! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Soylent heat is people (leftovers)!

  2. Coming soon, by nobodylocalhost · · Score: 3, Insightful

    McDonalds Energy,
    Solving home heating crisis by providing clean deep fryer vegetable oil!

    --
    Where is the "Ignorant" mod tag?
    1. Re:Coming soon, by darkdaedra · · Score: 3, Funny

      Now if they could only harness the methane from all those cows -- then we'd be talking about McDonald's as a serious energy company.

    2. Re:Coming soon, by Xtravar · · Score: 1

      Oh dear. We're going to have another energy crisis when people stop demanding so much fried food.

      --
      Buckle your ROFL belt, we're in for some LOLs.
    3. Re:Coming soon, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      I think McDonald's is a part of a conspiracy...

      1) Get people fat
      2) Oil runs out
      3) Render down said fat people (ala whales) ...
      5) Profit!

    4. Re:Coming soon, by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

      McDonalds Energy,
      Solving home heating crisis by providing clean deep fryer vegetable oil!

      McDonalds has beef fat in it's fryers. I remember that pissed off a bunch of Hindus a while back, they were smearing feces on the face of Ronald statues in India.

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    5. Re:Coming soon, by AmyRose1024 · · Score: 2, Informative

      They've used vegetable oil in their fryers for at least 10 years now. They now use a blend of soy and canola oil. http://www.ilsoy.org/soy-news/article/?sort=14&id=172

    6. Re:Coming soon, by Crazy+Man+on+Fire · · Score: 4, Informative

      Google knows all: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/1331625/McDonalds-admits-using-beef-fat-for-vegetarian-french-fries.html

      According to the article, the restaurant locations fry in vegetable oil, but the fries were partially fried in animal fat before they are frozen and shipped out to the restaurants.

      The fast-food chain had maintained for more than a decade that only vegetable oil was used in the hope of appealing to vegetarians and religious groups who do not eat beef products. Yesterday's apology triggered a violent protest by Hindus in India.

      The American company, which has served more than 200 billion portions of french fries around the world, confessed to a method of using beef fat to partly fry chips before they are sent to restaurants. They are then frozen and refried on the premises using vegetable oil.

    7. Re:Coming soon, by Vertana · · Score: 2, Funny

      Solving it the American way baby! Can't shoot at it? Aw. Throwing money at it doesn't help? Aw. Wait... revolutionary idea... let's deep fry it!!! *The suits come out of the conference room giving mental pats on the back to themselves*

      --
      "The best way to accelerate a Macintosh is at 9.8m/sec^2" -Marcus Dolengo
    8. Re:Coming soon, by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

      They've used vegetable oil in their fryers for at least 10 years now. They now use a blend of soy and canola oil. http://www.ilsoy.org/soy-news/article/?sort=14&id=172

      Yeah, that was what those angry Hindus had been told before the scandal broke out ;-)

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    9. Re:Coming soon, by zaf · · Score: 2, Funny

      Or the diners after they've eaten a big mac

    10. Re:Coming soon, by Thelasko · · Score: 1

      Now if they could only harness the methane from all those cows

      Welcome to the wonderful world of anaerobic digestion.

      --
      One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
    11. Re:Coming soon, by McGruber · · Score: 2, Funny

      Now if they could only harness the methane from all those customers -- then we'd be talking about Taco Bell as a serious energy company.

      Fixed your post for you!

    12. Re:Coming soon, by sgt+scrub · · Score: 1

      Talking about a replenishable energy supply.

      --
      Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
    13. Re:Coming soon, by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

      Google knows all: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/1331625/McDonalds-admits-using-beef-fat-for-vegetarian-french-fries.html

      According to the article, the restaurant locations fry in vegetable oil, but the fries were partially fried in animal fat before they are frozen and shipped out to the restaurants.

      I sit corrected.

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    14. Re:Coming soon, by budgenator · · Score: 0

      <sarcasim>I'm sure that a little smidgen of beef fat would piss off people that consider cattle holy creatures a lot more than all of those quarter pounder beef patties do.</sarcasim>

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    15. Re:Coming soon, by Elfich47 · · Score: 1
      This isn't anerobic digestion. Go read the website:

      http://www.vegawatt.com/

      --
      Architectural plans are like computer source code with a couple of differences: You only compile once.
    16. Re:Coming soon, by Mr.+Jaggers · · Score: 1

      No.

      They use chicken fat to fry them at the factory, and then flash-freeze them.

      The vegetable oil is to re-fry them (from frozen) at the restaurant.

      Hindus were angry because fries were marked as vegetarian food items.

      The beef thing was Pizza Hut, and it had to do with bovine calf sources of rennet for the cheese.

      Of course, you can feel free to find your own references...

      --

      When I grow up, I want to have Christopher Walken hair.
    17. Re:Coming soon, by Mr.+Jaggers · · Score: 1

      Ah, I see... it was beef fat.

      Clearly it takes a Crazy Man on Fire to dig out the truth.

      I stand firm on the Pizza Hut/rennet thing though...

      --

      When I grow up, I want to have Christopher Walken hair.
    18. Re:Coming soon, by sapphirecut · · Score: 1

      Alright, I can eat more fries AND save the world! Obesity here I come!

    19. Re:Coming soon, by Thelasko · · Score: 1

      Please read my post again, you completely missed my point.

      --
      One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
    20. Re:Coming soon, by wwfarch · · Score: 1

      Presumably the people eating the fries because they are "vegetarian" are not eating the quarter pounders. Many Hindus accept that other people eat beef but they've made the choice not to do the same. In this case McDonald's had essentially tricked them into eating beef.

    21. Re:Coming soon, by drinkypoo · · Score: 1


      McDonalds Energy,
      Solving home heating crisis by providing clean deep fryer vegetable oil!
      --
      Where is the "Ignorant" mod tag?

      Irony is having your sig say Where is the "Ignorant" mod tag? and not knowing that Fast Food grease is the dirtiest kind of oil. The absolute worst is Fish and Chips grease. If it gets into a non-heated filter it is all over. #2 is anyone who makes a lot of french fries; #1 in that category of badness would be McDonald's. The best oil comes from Chinese restaurants. The second-best oil comes from Mexican restaurants. Clever .sig FAIL

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    22. Re:Coming soon, by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

      <sarcasim>I'm sure that a little smidgen of beef fat would piss off people that consider cattle holy creatures a lot more than all of those quarter pounder beef patties do.</sarcasim>

      It's called "informed consent", look it up.

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    23. Re:Coming soon, by budgenator · · Score: 1

      I used to work at a McDonalds in High School, anything that comes out of there kitchen has beef fat on it, my face used to feel gritty after work from the beef fat splatter. A Hindu going into a bugger Joint and just eating french fries is like a Baptists going into a whore house and just talking.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
  3. How to save energy by amclay · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is it. I love this kind of idea and packaging/sale. It's clean, it seems to work, and companies are going to be attracted to that (esp. the $800/month energy savings...) The idea really isn't new, but they've cleaned it up, and that's really what counts these days.

    --
    It's all fun and games till someone divides by 0. Then it's hilarious.
    1. Re:How to save energy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think it's really cool that the fuel is free of chemicals. So what is that, like antimatter or something?

    2. Re:How to save energy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They'd probably save more energy by installing evaporative multifuel burners (like a backpacking stove) in their stoves to burn the oil directly.

    3. Re:How to save energy by Hordeking · · Score: 1

      I think it's really cool that the fuel is free of chemicals. So what is that, like antimatter or something?

      Can't be much worse than the episode of Star Trek: TNG where the Enterprise puts into port, to have "Baryonic Matter" removed from the ship.

      --
      Disclaimer: The opinions and actions of the US Gov't are in no way representative of those held by this author or its ci
    4. Re:How to save energy by acohen1 · · Score: 0

      Is that the same one where Tuvok tries to steal the Trilithium waste?

    5. Re:How to save energy by Hordeking · · Score: 1

      Highly unlikely. Now if you go back into your cave and NEVER, EVER mention to any figment of the Bastard Child of Star Trek (or the fictional counterpart to Tuvok, Tim Russ) ever again, you may still be able to get into Heave (but you still won't get any virgins, or any other female, for that matter).

      --
      Disclaimer: The opinions and actions of the US Gov't are in no way representative of those held by this author or its ci
    6. Re:How to save energy by acohen1 · · Score: 0

      Haha, totally is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship_Mine What were you saying?

    7. Re:How to save energy by Hordeking · · Score: 1

      Haha, totally is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship_Mine What were you saying?

      I stand corrected. Tuvok was in it. As I think about all the appearances (as different characters) of Tim Russ, I suspect that the original person must be the victim of DNA piracy and copying. Too bad they didn't have DRM (DNA Rights Management) in the 24th century. He can't be the only victim of 24th century identity theft...

      --
      Disclaimer: The opinions and actions of the US Gov't are in no way representative of those held by this author or its ci
  4. how much veggie oil is needed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    fried food is kind of nasty

  5. But... by XanC · · Score: 1

    That's my retirement grease!

  6. My mate's car... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My friend runs his diesel car on a 50% mix of diesel and used oil from a fish and chip shop. And it always stinks of fish.

    1. Re:My mate's car... by DanWS6 · · Score: 1

      Your friend or his car?

    2. Re:My mate's car... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The shop

  7. Just one problem by Locke2005 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If everybody started using used vegetable oil for an energy source, wouldn't the cost of used vegetable oil go way up? Meaning it would be more cost effective to sell the oil and buy the electricity rather than use the oil to generate my own electricity. Trust me, if dead cats were to become a viable energy source, then even the market value of a dead cat would skyrocket. (What?!? There's currently no market for trading dead cat futures?!?)

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    1. Re:Just one problem by mooingyak · · Score: 1

      Where's the problem in that?

      --
      William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
    2. Re:Just one problem by Scrameustache · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If everybody started using used vegetable oil for an energy source, wouldn't the cost of used vegetable oil go way up?

      If the restaurants all start using their used oil for this secondary purpose instead of selling it, how would the market for that now-mostly-free waste product exist?

      I've done that fryer-cleaning job. Trust me, if you factor in the man hours it takes to move and store that oil compared to having a hose you could plug in there to drain directly to your fuel tank, you'll chose the option that lets you spend your time scrubbing something instead of messing with fluctuating oil markets.

      It'd be worth it just to remove the occasional slip & fall with a couple of buckets full of oil spilling as you drop: The accident that causes itself.

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    3. Re:Just one problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      aye, oil deposal is expensive from the reasons you listed. This is used oil which has little purpose left for the company other then deposal or recycle (both have to deal with various issues including transportation cost). If it saves the company money while making good use of the oil, I don't see why they wouldn't do it unless the equipment is too expensive. I actually wonder why this hasn't been done yet considering the technology been available for a while.

    4. Re:Just one problem by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The price would certainly go up since, as waste, the oil is worthless(or even costs money to dispose of); but there is no reason to expect it to rise in price above other similar energy sources. If the cost of electricity is X, why would I ever pay more than X for vegetable oil? If nobody will pay more than X for vegetable oil, then it won't be cost effective to sell vegetable oil and buy electricity with the profits.

      The only exception to that would occur because of fixed costs and economies of scale. If, say, an oil generator costs $10,000,000, or if large generators have far better efficiency than small ones, then it would make sense for everyone in a given area to sell oil to a large producer, and buy electricity. Given that shipping costs money, the savings of centralization would have to be large enough to overcome the costs.

    5. Re:Just one problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Meaning it would be more cost effective to sell the oil and buy the electricity rather than use the oil to generate my own electricity.

      In perfect competition it would have identical costs to buy electricity and sell oil as just generating electricity directly. Unless economies of scale comes into play somehow.

      By the way, that hasn't happened yet; we're not yet in perfect competition. Now is the time to collect economic profits. Later on, only normal profits will be available.

    6. Re:Just one problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kinda along the same lines as in our rush to use more "bio friendly" fuels, we are rising the price of basic food stuffs (corn) and the people who live day to day eating the food we are burning are going hungry.

      Look at all the other countries that have condemned our use of eco-fuels because their people are literally starving as a result.

      Way to go environmentalists. Try and save the planet by killing the people on it.

    7. Re:Just one problem by shadowbearer · · Score: 1

        Another thing is that not all cities or towns have local businesses that collect the waste oil - we don't here, the closest collection business is fifty miles away. Factor in the extra fuel burned and pollution created in transporting that used veg oil to collection centers in petro burning trucks, and there's even more of a fuel/environmental savings.

        This is an excellent example of how keeping your recycling as local as possible is a win-win.

        Now we need to promote local food production more... my small (~10k pop) city just spent about five million last year on a "water park" - this after over 11 years of drought - that would have been much better spent on the community gardens and greenhouses that a lot of people around here have been asking for for many years...

      SB

      --
      It's old. The more humans I meet, the more I like my cats. At least they are honest.
    8. Re:Just one problem by maxume · · Score: 1

      The price will only go up so much. Normal people aren't going to pay more for the used oil than for diesel, so there is a reasonable estimate of the price ceiling (given that there is processing involved to make the oil useful, it would be odd for it to exceed the price of diesel over time (an irrational spike wouldn't be real surprising, look at ebay)).

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    9. Re:Just one problem by geekoid · · Score: 1

      I would rather they used a good filtering method and reused most of the oil for frying.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    10. Re:Just one problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      use of biofuels in no way shape or form raises the price of basic food stuffs....

      Rising prices of oil / fuel raises the price of food stuffs.

      Ban all trading of commodities futures for things like crude oil, grains and watch prices fall and stabilize.

      Modify trading of these items so that if you buy something, you buy it (and are asked where to ship / store it)...

      You pay for shipping, storing whatever you bought, and the person selling it is done with it.

      These small changes to the market would lower the profiteering and margins of those trying to extract every last cent from the market. Prices to those who actually use the products would drop, and the prices for those who sell the product would go up (most middle men would be cut, if they had to pay for shipping/storage of said products) and the markets would equalize into something that would actually improve our economy.

      the root cause of our current financial woes is greed... pure and simple...

    11. Re:Just one problem by m.ducharme · · Score: 1

      Which I'm sure they do, but you can only re-filter that oil so many times before it's just not worth the effort any more.

      --
      Rule of Slashdot #0: You and people like you are not representative of the larger population. - A.C.
    12. Re:Just one problem by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      That seems like an unlikely filter. While it's reasonably easy to filter out particulate matter, deep-fry grease breaks down from being held at high temperatures. I'm not sure you could effectively filter out the breakdown byproducts.

    13. Re:Just one problem by NemosomeN · · Score: 2, Informative

      That would cause the formation of trans-fats, a very bad thing.

      --
      I hate grammar Nazi's.
    14. Re:Just one problem by NemosomeN · · Score: 1

      Well, the prices would converge. Used oil would go up in price, but other energy sources would go down. They would sort of meet in the middle (Well, not the middle, because non-used-oil energy is a huge market). Let's not forget that gasoline used to be garbage, either.

      --
      I hate grammar Nazi's.
    15. Re:Just one problem by mooingyak · · Score: 1

      Except used veggie oil is currently waste.

      People with bio-diesel cars go up to restaurants and are freely given the stuff because otherwise the restaurant has to spend time/money in disposing of it.

      So... still not seeing the problem.

      --
      William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
    16. Re:Just one problem by Thelasko · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Meaning it would be more cost effective to sell the oil and buy the electricity rather than use the oil to generate my own electricity.

      I doubt it, this technology has three major advantages over selling the oil and buying the electricity.
      1) No transmission loss from the power plant to the customer.
      2) No waste heat from the power generation, as it is used to heat the restaurant's water.
      3) No fuel is burned in transporting the soon-to-be fuel.

      In theory, the markets sort out the most efficient use of resources. If this technology is truly more efficient, it will thrive.

      --
      One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
    17. Re:Just one problem by maxume · · Score: 1

      They would converge, but I'm not sure that the coming down would be a big part of that.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    18. Re:Just one problem by m.ducharme · · Score: 1

      Really? filtering creates trans fats? When I last worked in a restaurant, most people didn't care about trans fats, so maybe they don't do it any more.

      --
      Rule of Slashdot #0: You and people like you are not representative of the larger population. - A.C.
    19. Re:Just one problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No it's not waste. The companies that pick up used vegetable oil from restaurants resell it to companies that use it to make other products (cosmetics, soap, plastics, etc). The less waste oil available on the market due to it being made into bio-diesel, the higher overall demand for vegetable oil as the companies that used the waste oil seek out other sources.

      That is why the push towards bio-diesel is causing the deforesting some tropical areas in order to expand palm oil/soybean plantations. Clear cut and burn is the popular method, releasing more tons of CO2 into the atmosphere than saved by not burning oil.

      Way to go greenies!

    20. Re:Just one problem by v1 · · Score: 1

      I'd imagine then you'd be talking about the cost of filters and the economic impact of disposing of them.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    21. Re:Just one problem by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      If the cost of electricity is X, why would I ever pay more than X for vegetable oil?

      You would pay more because you can't burn electricity in your diesel engine. Restaurants could power themselves using waste veggie oil or electricity from the grid; vehicles (at least, real vehicles as opposed to non-existent electrics and plug-in hybrids) must use diesel, and thus have more inelastic demand.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    22. Re:Just one problem by mrchaotica · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're missing the big picture: if the restaurant sells the oil for use in diesel vehicles, that displaces the dino-diesel the vehicles would otherwise use. If you assumed that the electricity the restaurant would use otherwise was created more efficiently than mining, refining, and burning the diesel in the vehicle, then selling the waste veggie oil wins.

      Restaurants can easily be powered with electricity generated from clean and renewable resources. Vehicles still need fuel, because [synthetic] gasoline and [bio]diesel work much better than batteries (or hydrogen, or any other alternative so far).

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    23. Re:Just one problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not what they already do on Stock Markets today.
      Sold you a dead cat, while keep for them the "live cat" (some sort of SchrÃdinger cat )?

    24. Re:Just one problem by budgenator · · Score: 1

      I think the point is to use the vegetable oil after it is no longer useful for cooking food in, what will go up is animal feed and soap, which the used fat is used for commercially. Currently restaurants pay to have this valuable material removed.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    25. Re:Just one problem by budgenator · · Score: 1

      No it doesn't cause trans-fats, what does happen is the oil breaks down and releases the fatty acid and glycerin portions, both are bad for taste and in diesel engines. If you're making biodiesel and the oil has too much FFA (Free Fatty Acids) and your using the base catalyzed trans-esterifaction process you end up with a barrel of soap instead of fuel.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    26. Re:Just one problem by NemosomeN · · Score: 1

      If I'm not mistaken, when oil containing cis-fats is heated repeatedly, the bonds can break and reform as trans-fats. No, of course filtering doesn't add anything.

      --
      I hate grammar Nazi's.
    27. Re:Just one problem by adolf · · Score: 1

      Right, sure, but:

      If I were a restaurant owner, I'm looking at the dollars and cents, but also the pain-in-the-ass of it all, but not some grandiose "big picture." If it's less hassle for me to burn my fryer oil for electricity than to turn the back dock into a fuel depot, then so be it.

    28. Re:Just one problem by gobbo · · Score: 1

      Funny how people have monolithic energy sources on the brain. Until we have zero-point energy wristwatches or pocket fusion generators, any futurist can expect that we will be implementing a wide variety of energy sources very soon.

      The trick is that each application of energy depends on different kinds of efficiencies and benefits, including whole-cost accounting like moving the energy source around, re-purposed materials (the main benefit in this case), health, aesthetics (e.g. property values + noise), scale, etc.

    29. Re:Just one problem by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      If it's less hassle for me to burn my fryer oil for electricity than to turn the back dock into a fuel depot, then so be it.

      It's not, though. Setting the used oil out back to be picked up by someone, whether it's a guy with a diesel car or a disposal company, is what restaurants currently do anyway. Plus, it's a restaurant -- they get deliveries of food, new oil, etc. all the time. One more truck at the back door is no big deal. And that way they don't have to buy and maintain an extra machine.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    30. Re:Just one problem by dianaflank · · Score: 1

      see no problem

    31. Re:Just one problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who the hell modded this insightful?

      Use of biofuels can raise the price of foodstuffs, if the land that would normally be used to grow foodstuffs is used to grow biofuel crops. It creates a lower supply of foodstuffs.

      Banning of futures/forwards trading does not cause prices to stabilize. Are stock prices stable? They trade in real time and they certainly don't exhibit low prices or stable prices, but rather what the market will bear.

      A farmer would rather have a certain price paid up front for his crop, rather than be left to the whim of the market when he has to sell. For the farmer, it actually creates revenue stability, as he knows what he'll receive for his crop, rather than have to wait for 6 months, and hope that the price of his crop hasn't plummeted.

      People need to stop perpetuating the myth that all derivatives are purely for speculation. Most of them have legitimate purposes and are very useful to a lot of people and businesses.

    32. Re:Just one problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, restaurants are currently being paid for it by the lb. Most are in contractual agreements with a grease company.

    33. Re:Just one problem by Jab31169 · · Score: 1

      fifty miles is nothing for the tallow business. What a tallow business recycles far outweighs what you would save from local recycling. The last time I checked, you couldnt shove a dead cow in your gas tank. Tallow companies just dont recycle waste oil.

  8. Right, right.... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "It also produces fuel free of chemicals..." As a somewhat tired internet meme would say; "O rly?"

    FFS people, virtually everything is made of "chemicals" and that isn't a problem. Sure, there are loads of quite nasty chemicals that will play hell with your chemistry and are to be avoided; but the notion that there are chemical free fuels is beyond asinine.

    1. Re:Right, right.... by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 2, Funny

      That's why I use only the top notch dark matter to make my fries.

    2. Re:Right, right.... by blueg3 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Even if you take it to mean a reasonable interpretation -- free of added or unwanted chemicals (which, as you point out, really means added or unwanted *anything*), it's still not true. Oil that's been held at high temperatures and used repeatedly to fry food is by no means free of impurities. At least some of these chemicals are hazardous or carcinogenic. Maybe the fuel overall is clean compared to the alternatives, but it's not truly clean.

    3. Re:Right, right.... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Just in the same way that eating an apple from a tree fertilized with (processed) human manure is not the same as eating shit, burning biodiesel which has been esterified from used cooking oil, then washed to remove impurities is not the same thing as burning waste vegetable oil. On the other hand, there is waste from the process; it produces glycerine contaminated with biodiesel, and particulate wastes. Both can be composted (even with the biodiesel in) given care, but you can't really do that on-site at your restaurant in most cases.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:Right, right.... by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      I haven't read their process carefully, but it's not biodiesel. In fact, the quote in the original post is out of context, but the comment that the fuel is "free of chemicals" is comparing it to biodiesel. They're simply filtering and burning vegetable oil.

      It is true that if you apply appropriate chemical modification, you may well be able to separate the contaminants from the resulting fuel, it's not necessarily the case. The biodiesel chemical conversion process is certainly much less rigorous than plants turning raw material into tissue (and even there, soil and water contaminants can end up in the plant tissue).

    5. Re:Right, right.... by barzok · · Score: 1

      I use fries to make dark matter.

  9. Keep eating fried foods... by madhatter256 · · Score: 1

    As long as people keep eating fried foods, then there will be an abundant supply of clean fuel... So F U to those who tell us what we should and should not eat.

    Up with trans fats, down with... boiled crap.

    --
    Previewing comments are for sissies!
    1. Re:Keep eating fried foods... by guyminuslife · · Score: 2, Funny

      On the other hand, you'll have to burn more of it to drag your fat ass to the McDonald's in the only megavan that it will fit in.

      --
      I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
    2. Re:Keep eating fried foods... by maxume · · Score: 1

      Trans fats are mostly used to stabilize shelf foods, they don't taste better or anything (I would say food in general tastes better since the trans fat freak out, they have to use other methods of keeping the food fresh, so it is fresher...).

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  10. Mouth-watering smog by the_therapist · · Score: 3, Funny

    I for one welcome smog warnings that are accompanied by the delicate scent of fries.

  11. What type of conversion? by a1terego · · Score: 1

    So does the vega-thingie burn the oil or harvest heat from used oil? Doesn't burning vegetable oil still produce a lot CO2? I don't get it. I guess you get less smog-forming chemicals.

    1. Re:What type of conversion? by jhantin · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's CO2 that was pulled out of the atmosphere when the vegetables it came from were grown, so in that respect it's carbon-neutral. The CO2 emitted by farming equipment, fertilizer production, and so forth would have happened anyway.

      --
      ...when you're writing a game...tweak the difficulty of "Easy" to something [your mother] can cope with. -- onion2k
    2. Re:What type of conversion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      It's CO2 that was pulled out of the atmosphere when the vegetables it came from were grown, so in that respect it's carbon-neutral. The CO2 emitted by farming equipment, fertilizer production, and so forth would have happened anyway.

      ...and if the energy being replaced is from fossil fuels, it's effectively better than carbon-neutral.

    3. Re:What type of conversion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The increased demand for vegetable oil has encouraged people to clear land for the purpose of growing palm oil. Burning down a tropical rain forest in order to grow bio-fuel is not carbon neutral.

    4. Re:What type of conversion? by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      The CO2 emitted by farming equipment, fertilizer production, and so forth would have happened anyway.

      And there's no reason that stuff couldn't also have been run on biofuels anyway!

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    5. Re:What type of conversion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "would have happened anyway" is a sad attempt to write off an argument that you don't like.

  12. Not just for soap anymore! by Scrameustache · · Score: 4, Funny

    Plastic surgery clinics could do that too. It would be better than just leaving their lipid waste in big plastic bags in bio hazard dumpsters, where anyone can just jump the fence and steal it.

    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

    1. Re:Not just for soap anymore! by MightyYar · · Score: 4, Funny

      I have a friend who fuels his lipid car simply by following Star Jones around from liposuction clinic to liposuction clinic.

      He also has a methane motorcycle that is fueled entirely by Rosie O'Donnell, and a composting house heater fueled entirely by tuning the radio to Rush Limbaugh.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    2. Re:Not just for soap anymore! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have a friend who fuels his lipid car simply by following Star Jones around from liposuction clinic to liposuction clinic.

      He also has a methane motorcycle that is fueled entirely by Rosie O'Donnell, and a composting house heater fueled entirely by tuning the radio to Rush Limbaugh.

      Tell your friend that I am pretty sure he is to blame for global warming.

    3. Re:Not just for soap anymore! by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Silly AC, everyone knows that has to do with the decline in piracy!

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    4. Re:Not just for soap anymore! by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      That graph needs to be updated to reflect the recent activity by Somali pirates and the consequent winter storms throughout the US.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    5. Re:Not just for soap anymore! by RockWolf · · Score: 3, Informative

      Plastic surgery clinics could do that too. It would be better than just leaving their lipid waste in big plastic bags in bio hazard dumpsters, where anyone can just jump the fence and steal it.

      Already tried by a doctor in Beverley Hills. He used it to power two SUVs.

      --
      February 9th, 2009 8:55pm: Slashdot becomes self-aware.
    6. Re:Not just for soap anymore! by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      As per your link, one of the SUVs he claimed to have powered doesn't come in a diesel model. It's entirely possible, and in fact Tyson Chicken is building (has built?) a pilot plant in Germany to make animal-based biodiesel. Tyson chicken is the world's largest producer of waste chicken fat.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  13. really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It also produces fuel free of chemicals or fossil fuels, unlike standard biodiesel.

    Free of chemicals? What are they burning then? Certainly there are emissions, so what are they?

  14. No chemicals? by White+Flame · · Score: 1

    It also produces fuel free of chemicals or fossil fuels, unlike standard biodiesel.

    How does that work? Maybe they meant "hazardous chemicals" or something.

    1. Re:No chemicals? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hear my girlfriend say that all the time (...); it seems to be common terminology in the wanna-be green world. Chemical == Bad.

    2. Re:No chemicals? by Fieryphoenix · · Score: 1

      It's a little known fact that used cooking oil is so evil that it dissolves all molecular bonds, leaving only individual atoms. That's why fast food is so bad for your heart.

  15. Free of chemicals? by RecoveredMarketroid · · Score: 1

    What the hell does that mean, anyway? People throw that phrase around, and I guess you have an idea of what they are getting at, but as a claim, isn't it problematic?

    1. Re:Free of chemicals? by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 1

      What the hell does that mean, anyway?

      That means that, whoever wrote it, is free of intelligence.

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
  16. Clean? by H0p313ss · · Score: 1

    Aren't they burning a hydrocarbon? How does this qualify as clean?

    --
    XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
    1. Re:Clean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Reminds me of an article I read about biodiesel. According to the author, biodiesel was 100% efficient. It also makes your amp go up to 11.

    2. Re:Clean? by SydShamino · · Score: 3, Informative

      When was that carbon last in the atmosphere? If the answer is "within the past two years" then it doesn't make things worse.

      If the answer is "fifty-seven million years ago" then there may be a problem.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    3. Re:Clean? by H0p313ss · · Score: 1

      When was that carbon last in the atmosphere? If the answer is "within the past two years" then it doesn't make things worse.

      If the answer is "fifty-seven million years ago" then there may be a problem.

      Carbon neutral and clean are not the same thing.

      --
      XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
    4. Re:Clean? by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Biodiesel has reduced emissions (warning: PDF) compared to dino-diesel for every category of pollutant except NOx (oxides of nitrogen).

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    5. Re:Clean? by H0p313ss · · Score: 1

      Biodiesel has reduced emissions (warning: PDF) compared to dino-diesel for every category of pollutant except NOx (oxides of nitrogen).

      So... cleaner than the current standard. But certainly not cleaner than, say, hydro-electricity.

      Folks... if you're burning a hydrocarbon, no matter where you get it from it ain't clean unless you manage to sequester ALL THE EMISSIONS. (Let me know when you pull that off.)

      Disclosure: I drive a standard vehicle and heat with natural gas. I just get tired of people repeating tired old nonsense. Burning hydro-carbons is NOT CLEAN.

      --
      XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
    6. Re:Clean? by arminw · · Score: 1

      ....Burning hydro-carbons is NOT CLEAN....

      So what? People have been burning wood in their campfires, fireplaces and wood stoves for ages. Last time I looked, wood is essentially a hydrocarbon. All the carbon containing fuel, whether from the forest or from some place underground, is essentially stored solar energy. In the case of wood it was stored a relatively short time ago, while with the other so-called fossil fuels the storage took place a very long time ago. At some point, near the beginning, all carbon already burned and all that is still left underground that could be burned, must have been in the atmosphere. There is quite a bit of evidence that the Earth was much warmer back in those days when these fossils fuels were made. Life was abundant back then in places that are today searing, sterile deserts or frozen Arctic tundra. What would be so bad if the earth gradually returned to such earlier conditions where such places where lush and fruitful?

      --
      All theory is gray
    7. Re:Clean? by NemoinSpace · · Score: 1

      When was that carbon last in the atmosphere?

      Almost the right question... Try this. When was that carbon last in the Ocean?

      When more people study what a solubility curve is, when they look at an energy emission spectrum of a CO2 molecule and then figure out why beer (even free) goes flat versus why insoluble carbonates form. And when they stop confusing cause and effect. , I,e, temperature and CO2%. Then they will discover - Most of the carbon is sitting at the bottom of the ocean and it's going to get a lot colder before it gets a lot warmer.

    8. Re:Clean? by yanyan · · Score: 1

      Nope. Vegetable oil is composed of triglycerides, not hydrocarbons.

    9. Re:Clean? by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      So... cleaner than the current standard. But certainly not cleaner than, say, hydro-electricity.

      Good luck running a vehicle with hydroelectricity! Last I checked, dams don't move...

      Folks... if you're burning a hydrocarbon, no matter where you get it from it ain't clean unless you manage to sequester ALL THE EMISSIONS. (Let me know when you pull that off.)

      To be blunt, that's a stupid way of looking at it, for several reasons.

      First, there are two general categories of emissions: short-term and long-term. Short-term emissions are things like NOx, VOCs, and particulates. They cause acute, local problems like smog, but they dissipate after a while (for example, particulates eventually precipitate out). Long-term emissions are things like carbon dioxide, methane, and CFCs. They stay in the atmosphere forever and cause global warming. "Sequestering" is only relevant to long-term pollutants, not short-term ones.

      Second, it's entirely possible to have short-term emissions so low that they're actually cleaner than the surrounding air. In fact, if you drive a car this clean around a polluted city, it'll remove existing pollutants! The Prius is the car most famous for being able to do this, but other cars can too.

      The bottom line is that a new diesel could be "clean" when using biodiesel, even though it's burning hydrocarbons, because it has zero net carbon emissions (since the carbon was recently CO2 before the plant photosynthesized it anyway) and because the catalytic converter etc. is good enough to make it emit less short-term pollutants than exist in the surrounding atmosphere.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    10. Re:Clean? by mortonda · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter how old the carbon is. If we spew more carbon than is scrubbed, it's imbalanced. If you could push a magic button and make all carbon emissions based on carbon that was in the air in "the past two years", we quickly run out of fuel.

  17. Economies of scale by westlake · · Score: 1

    I still think it cleaner, safer and more responsible to leave bio-fuels to the pro - the experienced commercial operator.

    The restaurant is a fire waiting to happen.

    They survive on very thin margins. They hire kids for jobs like this. They don't pay them much. They don't train them well.

    1. Re:Economies of scale by geekoid · · Score: 1

      If they can stand and use a deep fryer, then that can plug a hose from the fryer to the automated system.
       

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  18. Or we could make lipstick? by migla · · Score: 1

    At one restaurant I worked at 15-20 years ago, the spent frying oil was collected and then picked up by someone. The chef said it was like returning bottles or selling scrap metal. One use was allegedly that the cosmetics industry would purchase the processed oil and put it in lipsticks. Was he taking a piss?

    --
    Some of my favourite people are from th US; Vonnegut, Chomsky, Bill Hicks.
    1. Re:Or we could make lipstick? by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 1

      Was he taking a piss?

      It depends. Did he shake it any more than three times?

      In either case, you've put me off eating out for a week.

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    2. Re:Or we could make lipstick? by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Yes, you could make lipstick from WVO. Of course I'd rather have biodiesel, personally.

      By the way, the by-product of biodiesel production is glycerin, so you could probably make the biodiesel and the lipstick at the same time if you wanted.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    3. Re:Or we could make lipstick? by vertinox · · Score: 1

      Was he taking a piss?

      Actually, on one of the Dirty Jobs (its on Discovery Chanel) episodes where Mike is helping a BBQ owner clean the grease out of the grill and pours it into a big trailer out back.

      Mike asks the owner what he does with it and the owner *shrugs* and replies that he sells it to cosmetic companies and assumes they make make-up with it.

      So I guess it is a common practice.

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
  19. what's with the second picture on the linked page? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is it just me or is the picture with the guy standing next to the VegaWatt photoshopped?

  20. Re:what's with the second picture on the linked pa by Jogar+the+Barbarian · · Score: 1

    No, it's just the dramatic contrast in the wall behind them.

    --
    3. Profit!
    2. ???
    1. On Soviet Slashdot, a Beowulf cluster of alien Natalie Portman overlords welcomes YOU!
  21. Obligatory.... by davidsyes · · Score: 1

    "NOW you're COOKIN'"...

    --
    Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
  22. Dupe....of idle.... by cstdenis · · Score: 2, Informative

    Not only is this a dupe, like so many others on /., but it's a dupe of an article considered so stupid, it was put on idle: http://idle.slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=view&id=3713481

    --
    1984 was not supposed to be an instruction manual.
  23. McDonalds by tsa · · Score: 1

    McDonalds powers their trucks with the old oil for the fries here in NL. I calculated that you don't have to use any extra diesel to get the truck to all the McDonalds's here to pick up their trash. Very cool concept.

    --

    -- Cheers!

  24. Bottogas by Kupfernigk · · Score: 1

    There used to a bottled propane called Bottogas which was sold in the UK. A friend (who admittedly lived in a rural area...) was persuaded when small by his older brother that it was so called because the bottles were filled with the gas from cows' bottoms. You may find this improbable, but buildings have caught fire and burnt down through people carelessly igniting cow fart.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
  25. Two problems, you get fined for not paying taxes by Shivetya · · Score: 3, Insightful

    http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/599471.html

    It was a really distressing story to see that someone who went out of his way to avoid using oil for powering his car got fined for essentially evading fuel taxes by buying vegetable oil from costo

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
  26. KISS Principle by McGruber · · Score: 1

    Why not use the biofuel to heat and power the deep fryer?

  27. But the smell... by graemdrake · · Score: 1
    I can see how this would be and appealing solution to oil disposal and energy costs at McDonald's or another fast-food fryer joint. But what about a larger market? As any owner of a car that runs on vegetable oil can tell you - one of the side effects of burning fryer oil is a strong and persistent smell of fried food.

    This may be acceptable at some restaurants that are already saturated with this odor, but wider adoption of such appliances may be limited by nuisance and customer concerns.

  28. Re:Two problems, you get fined for not paying taxe by maxume · · Score: 1

    It is kind of a bummer, but if you live near water, there is usually cheaper fuel available that does not contain road taxes, and he essentially did the same thing as going to one of those pumps with his car. It's kind of silly to tax him alone, but on the other hand, there isn't nearly enough oil for everyone to switch, so it isn't really fair not to.

    --
    Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  29. Powering the burning process by owlstead · · Score: 1

    Why not start with the heating of the fat itself? Make a frying pan that cleans itself and uses the leftover/bad oil to heat the new/filtered oil. One machine that powers itself. You can of course use some of the energy for the electronics/pumps and maybe even power a few other devices. Or would this not be technical feasible? I like self sufficient devices.

  30. Re:Two problems, you get fined for not paying taxe by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

    When I first got my 2003 Civic Hybrid, Oregon DMV was doing a similarly stupid thing - they slapped a surcharge onto the registration fee for all hybrids, on the premise that I wouldn't be paying as much in gasoline taxes! A couple years later they saw the error of their ways; now they don't charge any more to register a hybrid. Now they just want to put a GPS in every car and tax you by mile instead of taxing you by gallon. But yes, use of alternative fuels does screw up the model they use for assessing highway taxes.

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
  31. yuk!!! by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

    I would rather they used a good filtering method and reused most of the oil for frying.

    I bet you'll also want them to filter the dishwater and serve it to you in a glass?

    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

  32. Re:Two problems, you get fined for not paying taxe by arminw · · Score: 1

    ....Now they just want to put a GPS in every car and tax you by mile...

    It seems that periodically reading the odometer and applying a formula that includes the weight of the vehicle ought to be a way to make a simple and fair tax for vehicles which use an alternate fuel. The present gasoline tax has worked well for years. Why come up with a complicated system using GPS, while all cars already have an odometer. The fuel tax is about the only tax where a taxpayer still gets value for his money.

    --
    All theory is gray
  33. Re:Two problems, you get fined for not paying taxe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What happens if you drive to another state? Who gets the taxes? I'm not advocating a GPS system (I don't want the government tracking me), there are still flaws with an odometer system.

  34. Re:Or we can use clean coal by PurpleBob · · Score: 1

    We can use clean coal, appreciate what it really is

    ... dirty?

    --
    Win dain a lotica, en vai tu ri silota
  35. Just one problem: taxes by Poingggg · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Here in the Netherlands it is forbidden to use vegetable oil or left-over frying oil as fuel for cars, even if the cars are perfectly able to run on it and pollute less then running on normal diesel. The reason: Taxes. They get no chance to skim off 'some' money so you can't use it.

    --
    What person will donate an airborne act of love?
    1. Re:Just one problem: taxes by repvik · · Score: 1

      The same is true here in Norway. One annoying thing is that if I convert my car to run on natural gas (and thus pollute less), I can't even get my car approved for road usage.
      There is no interest in actually reducing pollution, only in grabbing as much cash as possible. If you pollute less, you get fined for not paying. Yay.

    2. Re:Just one problem: taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow! A country more f**ked up than Britain. Here you can run your car on old veggie oil. But you have to inform the tax man how much you've used and send him a nice cheque to cover the duty/tax he's missed out on....

    3. Re:Just one problem: taxes by splatter · · Score: 1

      Interesting, so let me ask you both can you make your own distilled spirits?

      The reason why I ask is this is in the US there is a tax on liquor, and a whole department was formed partly to combat moonshine solely for the lost taxes.

      Cigarettes too but since not many grow their own tobacco it's not as clear cut.

      --
      "(I) have this unfortunate condition that causes me not to believe a single thing any politician says when a mic's on.
    4. Re:Just one problem: taxes by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The same is in fact also true in the USA, but in practice it is very rare to get in trouble because nobody wants to open that particular pandora's box of trouble. Instead they (in this case, "they" is the federal government of the USA) do [very] slightly sneakier things like announce their intent to sue the crap out of the state of California if we institute the voter-approved emissions standards intended to spur the sale of low-emissions fuel-efficient cars in California, thus reducing emissions not just through the use of control devices like catalysts but also through the simple expedient of burning less fuel. Guess who this didn't go over well? You can see the whole sob story in Who Killed the Electric Car. In case you're allergic to that movie and thus my post, let me SPOIL IT SLIGHTLY (bold face for the attention impaired who somehow haven't seen it and think the ending is going to be a big surprise) they put the blame on pretty much everyone including consumers, so don't assume it's just a bunch of hippie rhetoric. The video proof you will need is in the movie. I bet you can download it for free :P

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:Just one problem: taxes by Poingggg · · Score: 1

      Nope! No own distillery here, legally. Distilled products are heavily taxed, as is fuel. In fact, fuel is so heavily taxed that it quadruples the price of it.

      --
      What person will donate an airborne act of love?
  36. Re:Or we can use clean coal by Timberwolf0122 · · Score: 1

    I think the VegaWatt is a good idea, as it helps to make restaurants more profitable. I'm sure most businesses would like a 10%-15% drop in there electricity bill along with the elimination of disposal fees.

    --
    In the not too distant future, next Sunday A.D.
  37. Used Oil is more than just bio-fuel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Its used in alot of products, High protein animal feed, dog food, makeup, synthetic oils and lubricants. Tallow as its called is actually a commodity that is traded on the stock market. Used Oil has been recycled before recycling was the thing to do. Most restaurants have a contract with a local renderer and get paid for there waste oil. Anyone who tells you they are just throwing used oil away is lying.

    Not only do they recycle used oil, they also pick up supermarket scraps and spoiled food, dead livestock, meat processing scraps and hides, and whatever else you can think of thats pretty much nasty.

    I only know all of this since its a family business and it erks me when people are uneducated on what really happens with tallow.

    http://nationalrenderers.org/

  38. Score! by Paranoid+times · · Score: 1

    Finally a fuel "free of chemicals"!

  39. So how many... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How many Vegawatts are in a Jigowatt?

  40. I don't mean to be a pedant, by OnomatopoeiaSound · · Score: 1

    Ok, I really do I suppose. This seems cool and a good idea, but it irks me when they claim that the thing produces a "fuel free of chemicals" because in that case it would actually produce nothing at all. I know what they mean, but isn't there another word they could use? Harmful chemicals maybe? Unwanted byproducts? There's gotta be a better term.

    --
    +++ Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot +++