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OLPC Set To Dump x86 For Arm Chips In XO 2
angry tapir writes with this excerpt from Good Gear Guide: "One Laptop Per Child is set to dump x86 processors, instead opting to put low-power Arm-based processors in its next-generation XO-2 laptop with the aim of improving battery life. The nonprofit is 'almost' committed to putting the Arm-based chip in the next-generation XO-2 laptop, which is due for release in 18 months, according to Nicholas Negroponte, chairman of OLPC. The XO-1 laptop currently ships with Advanced Micro Devices' aging Geode chip, which is based on an x86 design."
OLPC Set To Dump x86 For Arm Chips In XO 2
I'm sorry, I thought ARM is an acronym for Advanced RISC Machine (formerly Acorn RISC Machine). Why am I seeing it used as "Arm"?
Or is there something I don't know about the processing power of two of my appendages?
My work here is dung.
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but why is this article headline highlighted red on the index page?
This is fine as long as they get the keyboard back. The single greatest Human interface tool (except for the SNES controller) not on a computer is really something sad.
My addiction: Arguing with idiots. AKA Slashdot!
I'm uninitiated at the arts of ARM, and am too lazy to look it up.
If you don't know what AltaVista is (was), get off my lawn.
on this thing???
From TFA
"Like many, we are urging Microsoft to make Windows -- not Windows Mobile -- available on the Arm. This is a complex question for them," Negroponte said.
OLPC is in talks with Microsoft to develop a version of a full Windows OS for XO-2, Negroponte said. The XO-2 is still 18 months away from release, so "a lot can change with regard to Microsoft and Arm," Negroponte said.
I don't really see this working. Windows has run on Risc before of course, but almost no one ported their applications to any of the Risc platforms. And a top of the line Arm (a Snapdragon or Cortex A8) is still less powerful than a bottom of the line x86 (Intel Atom), so it's not like you can run x86 binaries at an acceptable speed through emulation, like Dec tried with FX!32 on the Alpha.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
It's sad, but this is just a confirmation that the OLPC is dead. How sad :-(
The OLPC project is dying. Four years ago, you didn't have the netbooks. Now you do.
Shifting to ARM will simply ensure the death of the OLPC project, because being able to run real windows is an underappreciated benefit of x86.
Test your net with Netalyzr
I seem to recall seeing something awhile ago that Ubuntu is being ported to the ARM architecture. If the port is ready, using it would be a much better proposition than begging Microsoft to make a custom Windows OS for the XO-2, IMO. What would stop Microsoft from deliberately crippling the OS (and making it practically useless as a result) like they did with the starter editions of XP and Vista? Those were meant for the same type of market demographic as OLPC, after all.
"It is a denial of justice not to stretch out a helping hand to the fallen; that is the common right of humanity."
The guy is so pissed off at the likes of Intel he's driving the platform into a ditch. An ARM based client computer. May as well try and bring back the Amiga.
This is my sig.
Advanced Micro Devices = AMD.
I remember clearly that /. reported that Steve Jobs had originally agreed to license OS X to the OLPC project for free (as in beer), but that the offer was refused.
Since it is a well-known fact that Apple has had OS X working on an ARM architecture in the iPhone and iPod Touch for nearly 2 years now, it would seem a no-brainer at this point for OLPC to take Apple up on their offer.
The logical next gen for OLPC would have been a netbook derivative using Intel's next gen Atom processor. Since Intel dropped out of the OLPC consortium, mostly out of unhappiness by Nicholas N over Intel's competing Classmate PC, Intel has been dirty word at OLPC. I can see NN deliberately driving the design to something non-Intel
...oh yeah, nevermind.
Damn.
ARM architecture will allow them to dodge harassment from Microsoft goons. They can respond "we'd LOVE to have a derivative of your OS on our machines but unfortunately we use ARM chips!"
Negroponte probably got sick of pigs heads on his doorstep and anonymous phone calls at 4am.
After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
They jettisoned Sugar, and they keep courting Microsoft. So sad. I wish the article would have explored the "open source" hardware concept. No idea what the heck that means from the article or for OLPC:
What does such a move mean for backward compatibility? Aren't their applications already written with the existing OLPC in mind? I am afraid, it will not be as easy as "just recompile" to port some of them and those, who have already paid for theirs may have to pay again to be able to use them on the new hardware...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Amalgamated Regional Militia, with jurisdiction over the Earth-Moon system. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalgamated_Regional_Militia
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
The fact that AMD is not planning a successor to the Geode processor used in the XO-1 probably influenced this decision, at least in part. In 18 months, there may not be any Geodes remaining.
Colin Dean Go a year without DRM
How is the parent modded 0 and the grandparent 4, insightful? Maybe I'll be informative if I mention that I think Facebook is being ported to ARM...
This post climbed Mt. Washington.
It work great. I run it on an nslu2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSLU2
How much power saving are we talking about here? It seems to me the LCD panel/backlight are by far the biggest consumer of battery power.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
So you'd get all of the disadvantages of Windows, while simultaneously loosing the only real advantage it has, plentiful software. Smart.
I do not think Microsoft will work on an ARM port, even something that translates x86 to ARM because the ARM processor is likely to be way too slow for this.
Nintendo DS runs on an ARM architecture. Maybe now we can run those games at full speed on another device? Certainly now with an emulator on this device there would be less translation and more instruction passing. Great!
Same goes for any other ARM-based processor device and emulation.
Wine will not run on this and neither will Windows. I am so fine with that.
Linux with ARM is superior to Windows with Intel x86 in this platform and target user group. I have worked with both and ARM is not powerful (comparatively) but is exceedingly power efficient.
The XO was a product of the western media lab -
custom hardware, FOSS and a western - constructivist - philosophy of education bundled into an all or nothing package for the third world education minister.
His alternative was the Classmate - a straight-line path to the higher grades, the trade school or college, the job market -
for the students who had a real shot at making it that far.
I'm a developer who ports Windows CE to devices. All day, every day. Teach classes on it even. Been doing it since CE 3.0. Currently on 6.0.
CE makes a passable embedded/PDA device, but there is no way in the world you'd want it on a laptop.
It just isn't made for that kind of a setup. No native compilers, no swap file. Expensive license restrictions. It's less like a computer and more like a gadget in terms of overall feel.
Use Linux instead.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Doesn't quite work like that. The DS has such a significantly different architecture that even though they use an ARM, everything will have to be emulated(with some dynamic recompilation) anyway.
Android runs on ARM, perhaps they could adapt the netbook to include a touch screen and have it as an extension of the android OS.
I thought the OLPC people were dropping all OS's in favour of Windows XP. Does XP run on ARM?
QPLC is an interesting attemp to build a low cost computer and as such sparked the current Netbook craze. Unfortunately the netbook manufacture seem to have missed the boat when it comes to configuration for the general public. If it wasn't for performance the XO would be a better netbook than many on the market now.
This is where ARM has a lot to offer. They could easily go dual core on a SoC that would be much cheaper than the Intel equivalent. What they need to do though is make sure the platform is substantially faster, as the last thing you would want is a bunch of bored grade schoolers. This can be achieved while at the same time drastically reducing the cost of the hardware. They should be able to deliver a motherboard with only a couple of chips on it.
As to Windows I think OLPC just needs to suck it up and commit to Linux. I haven't run Windows on a personal machine in years and see little reason for an 8 year old to want to run windows. In fact the very idea of running Windows on the platform seems to counter indicate against the projects educational goals. Stick with Linux and the platform becomes usable against wide range of educational levels, including kernel hacking at the college level. They need to expand the scope of potential users in the next machine.
The other advantage that ARM can bring to the platform is that it would be viable to run the unit off solar power. I have to wonder if they have a power disapation goal for the unit running flat out. They may be able to get good performance well under 5 watts for the total system.
I'd like to think that the project would be successful in the long run but I don't think it will happen unless they can broaden the appeal. They can do that in a couple of ways. One is to deliver a lot more performance. The second would be to support a mainstream desktop window manager. A third would be to provide for Flash expansion via Compact Flash. Or fourth provide for a cheap low power file server. The main flash storage could always be more too, this for more robust OS and base software installs. ARM would put them in the position of addressing all these issues.
Dave
Arch is my favorite distro, but Debian would be a better fit for these computers if you think about what they are designed to do.
... than they have been so far...
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I don't understand Mr Negroponte. His natural allies would be the geeks moving the wheels of Linux.
The project would save substantial amounts of money and would provide a flexible, extensible machine for children to wander and learn.
In Windows you are straight-jacked to do whatever the licenses you are given allow you to do, and you have to pay for the privilege and enjoy it. It is like paying for a bad tempered dominatrix ...
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
"arm" is used like this : "Arm a-gonna kick yore ass"
Really, and I learned to speak like this when it is appropriate.. I now have several different pseudo english dialects down, even a good representation of ebonics. I haven't mastered spanglish yet though, them folks talk REAL fast and I jiss cain't unnerstan' 'em.
How the hell can they expect people to take them seriously on the shipping price of a unit when they say how much it is going to cost _before_ they have even chosen the CPU.
-- That which does not kill us has made its last mistake.
Ok I have 2 questions..
Firstly, WHY would Microsoft ever want to port XP to anything? This is an OS they have been desperately trying to kill off so they can get people buying their new ones. If anything is going to be ported its going to be Windows 7, and I personally cant see that going well.
Secondly, even if you HAD a port of windows on ARM, you'll get about the same number of Apps that you did when windows ran of the Alpha, ie, none. So why would you bother? "Being able to run all the normal software people use" is Windows ONLY selling point these days, and that nothing to do with the OS and everything to do with the developers.
Given the whole OLPC Linux to Windows switch fiasco, i'd be surprised if they get anyone seriously interested on helping them with a Linux port and you'd probably find a few people trying to actively hurt them for it.
Absolutely amazing idea (some may say world changing) but the implementation was very pore and badly managed. 2/10 would not shop again.
Technically, moving to ARM is a great choice. These CPUs are far cheaper. They also require far less power meaning that batteries and power circuitry can be smaller, cheaper, lighter and the handcrank give more page loads per crank. Also no need for cooling fans etc.
Given the way OLPC and similar projects move, the skeptic in me wonders whether this will actually happen. OLPC could just be "inviting" Microsoft/Intel to offer some good deal to keep them on x86.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
I've done WinCE diriver/OS work since WinCE1.0 days. In the beginning there was **no** ARM support, just MIPS, x86 and SH3. PowerPC came along a bit later and then ARM.
Some of the PowerPC code was directly lifted off the NT PowerPC porting effort (that got shelved).
WinCE has very little CPU-specific code - no more than Linux - but most of the rewrite was done to fit into a small system (few MB) where the traditional Windows bloatware just would not work.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
of what I believe OLPC is all about. Beiong an effective tool for delivery of education to children.
The success of this hardware in meeting this need rests on every component from the memory to the computing power, the battery technology and the display.
I believe ARM is a smart choice and improves the focus of this device on what the children need and not on what some idiot believes about training everyone to be able to use powerpoint.
Nullius in verba
It is a scam, they are using it as a ploy to sell laptops. It shouldn't even be called OLPC One Laptop Per Child, it should be called TLBOOGTCWWRHFOSI, Two Laptops But Only One Goes To Child Who Would Rather Have Food Or Shelter Instead.
Respect the Constitution
Arm is an excellent choice for such an implementation. The power profile is good and the number of units that can be crammed onto a wafer mean that costs of fab can eventually go below $1 per processor, with high volume. The future of computing is a place where general purpose CPUs primarily function as controllers and routers for special purpose signal processors and stream processor anyway and x86 processors are overkill for that.
Not really. Who gives a rats rear about OLPC? It's overhyped idiocy specially catered to guilty nerds, the ones who would depend on their laptops for food if they could and already sleep with their laptops but couldn't point out Zimbabwe on a map if their internet connection was down. If these people think they can save money and make a better expensive flashlight for the poor unfortunate yak herders of the third world, swell. But it's not news any more than the latest meeting of the Flat Earth Society is news.
...I can only pick up dialects when I am around native speakers, and since I don't travel outside of CONUS and elbownians are too poor to travel and their slingshot airlines don't reach this far....
This netbook and these development boards are based on the ARM architecture. You can also get ARM on a SODIMM form factor. And this little box looks nice.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
I have trouble believing that the XO-2 will be ready in 18 months - or that the generic x86 netbook of 2010-2011 won't be a viable competitor.
The problem with the XO wasn't hardware.
It was sales.
It wasn't a product the education minister was convinced he needed or wanted to buy.
The Windows option was an important - perhaps essential concession, a reminder that need to be talking to these people before you make the big decisions.
I would be in favour of free software instead of OSX. It was offered for free for marketing reasons. They couldn't sell it anyways and market share also presents value to a company.
Btw. Apple is the new evil now.