Slashdot Mirror
Computer Science Major Is Cool Again
netbuzz sends along a piece from Network World reporting that the number of computer science majors enrolled at US universities increased for the first time in six years, according to new survey data out this morning. The Taulbee Study found that the number of undergraduates signed up as computer science majors rose 8% last year. The survey was conducted last fall, just as the economic downturn started to bite. The article notes the daunting competition for positions at top universities: Carnegie Mellon University received 2,600 applications for 130 undergrad spots, and 1,400 for 26 PhD slots. "...the popularity of computer science majors among college freshmen and sophomores is because IT has better job prospects than other specialties, especially in light of the global economic downturn. ... The latest unemployment numbers for 2008 for computer software engineers is 1.6%... That's beyond full employment. ... The demand for tech jobs may rise further thanks to the Obama Administration's stimulus package, which could create nearly 1 million new tech jobs."
Guess you gotta spin a story to stay in the dead tree business.
CS majors were always cool.
the popularity of computer science majors among college freshmen and sophomores is because IT has better job prospects than other specialties
How does that make it cool? It sounds more like desperation.
Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
These ain't programmers, nor are they REAL "Software Engineers", the article writers are throwing Project Managers and Software Architects into the mix to get their numbers:
In other words, for the type of *real programmer* who isn't on a team and does everything from Requirements Gathering to QA (and everything in between) your job is STILL threatened by outsourcing. But the schools have finally figured that out, so instead of teaching basic concepts like data mining and programming, they're teaching people to be managers right out of the box. Dilbert Principle, here we come.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Now that the financial industry is in shambles (what do they produce, again?) the only way to make bank without sacrificing the 8 to 12 years of your youth to med school or law school is engineering. And since most people are now familiar with computers, software engineering seems more accessible.
This makes perfect sense. Engineers make more money than any other Bachelors degrees can get you. Many students don't realize that it is damn hard to get an engineering degree compared to other degrees, though. At least, that's true of good colleges.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
Um, if 1.6% or more of all CS people are unemployed, I think it's weird to say that's "beyond full employment." How is it that you can even be beyond full employment? Weird! LOL
Currently hooked on AMP
According to a recent poll of Wellesley College students, Computer Science majors have the fourth LOWEST virginity rate! Either the linked study is right, or CS's have become better liars. http://www.forwardon.com/view.php?e=Id1200c8f6b7f5f813
Airplane Photos, Airline News, Planespotting Guides
WTF? Really? Where?
All you damned programmers are gonna need some network support too...sign me up.
Sent from your iPad.
Harsha says computer science majors are critical for the U.S. economy because their training provides them with computational thinking and problem solving skills that they can deploy in any industry.
So does: physics, chemistry, engineering, math, accounting....
"The primary reason for the downturn in computer science majors was the erroneous fear that everything was being outsourced to India, which we know is not true," says Prof. Jerry Luftman, executive director of the School of Technology Management at Stevens Institute of Technology in Hoboken, N.J.
Really? Tell that to IBM.
The lobbying group TechAmerica says computer software engineering and computer systems design are the fastest-growing high tech jobs, even in the fourth quarter of 2008.
Who is this "TechAmerica"? The lobbying group TechAmerica says computer software engineering and computer systems design are the fastest-growing high tech jobs, even in the fourth quarter of 2008. Oh, I see. So, corps want more H1-Bs, I take it and they're setting up the public opinion to be more open to it in these troubling times.
The whole article keeps mentioning "IT","IT","IT" and only once did they say something mobile devices. I wish they would say exactly what area of IT is booming.
This article is nothing but fluff.
I only skimmed the article, but I never saw any mention what's happening to CS enrollment relative to *other* departments. It was my understanding that there is a general increase in college/grad enrollment in most departments when the economy dips.
What a spin piece.
CS majors had plummeted to near extinction over the past decade.
Given the market is still there, the stats had nowhere to go but up out of sheer law of averages.
Additionally, major does not necessarily mean field. People might be going into the major to gain greater understanding of the tools used by even the burger flippers today.
The fact that it's math and logic heavy makes it look better on a resume than east asian studies.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
Picking a major, especially an intensive one like CS, based on current employment statistics, that is.
Yes, but in a bad economy, people often go to school more. Apparently applications are way up for less expensive (state for example) universities.
I feel for the hotshot larval geek that's been programming since he was in the single digits, knows 3-4 operating systems, and can put together a computer in 15 minutes while getting a blowjob and having a gun pointed at his head, who is going to enroll in a CS program and find out he knows fuckall about "computer science."
Lest I get modded down for being an elitist prick, I'm not bashing those kids. I *am* one (although too old to be a kid). It's all downhill from Discrete Math...
One area that didn't show improvement in the latest Taulbee Survey is the number of women pursuing computer science degrees, which held steady at 11.8%
Times are rough perhaps, but they aren't rough enough yet that women are eager to sign up for the disrespect we have to put up with. Perhaps being a Lawyer or a Doctor isn't as sure a thing anymore, but at least they still make more money and get more respect, for roughly the same mental outlay.
Microsoft = fucking boring business-style computing. Nobody wants to do that.
Apple = fucking awesome home-style computing. Everybody wants to do that (everything that's not a fucking word processor or spreadsheet program).
We on Slashdot think so?
Me: "I'm sorry Miss, but there will be no cutting."
She: "But Dmomo, I don't just want to be with your CS Degree, I love you for you. Let me push your stack."
Me: "Typical story. Get to the end of the Lady Queue... I'm a FIFO man"
She: "Swoon"
No, really, how many engineers does it take to get the job done? Not too many. Undergrads need to remember that a piece of paper that declares you an engineer isn't going to get you a job. If you like to program, then program. If you want an excuse to screw around for 4 years without having to pay your bills, then go to school. But the only thing that's going to earn you a job (and keep you from getting outsourced) is good networking.
mmmm...forbidden donut
"Global economic downturn" will be over with a year or two, and we'll end up with a lot of people in the industry who are in it solely for the paycheck. If the industry doesn't get outsourced to China completely, that is.
the number of computer science majors enrolled at US universities increased for the first time in six years
Well, I guess it HAD to increase sometime. There's a financial saying that applies here, "Even a dead cat will bounce if you drop it from a great height."
Adidas To Bring Back Sneakernet
You'd do a bit better with Accounting - if you get your CPA and you'd blow the doors off with an actuarial degree and pass all 10 exams - well into the six figures.
I don't think that word means what you think it means.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
WTF? Really? Where?
McDonalds. To save money, they are no longer purchasing specialized cash registers with individual buttons per item. Going forward, a new generation of tech-savvy employees will have to "program" the register to display the order price.
I love learning but am sick of institutionalized education. The problem is the right way to do education is incredibly expensive, incredibly time-consuming, but if we had proper priorities as a society, would be seen as completely worth it. At this point, only idiots or saints would go into a career in education. There's no money in it, and I'm not talking about enough money to become a rich bastard, I'm talking about enough money to avoid poverty.
I'm not quite sure what the right solution is yet but I'm wondering if it might not be a good idea to start on the Young Lady's Primer. We've certainly made some advancements on the sort of technology that would be required.
Kwisatz Haderach
Sell the spice to CHOAM
This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
While interest in the field is good, there are still some major barriers to entry that need to be considered.
1. Unlike previous downturns, we currently have tons of IT/CS people out of work. I'm very lucky to have work; according to all my colleagues, hiring is extremely limited, especially in large public companies. In addition, competition for these jobs is incredibly tough.
2. Outsourcing has not gone away. IBM's a perfect example, as are many of the other professional services firms. India is rapidly moving up the food chain, and even advanced dev jobs are moving elsewhere very quickly. The best strategy is to get involved with a small company who doesn't have the resources to manage an outsourcing engagement.
3. A corollary to #2 - Lots of companies are "discovering" they don't need an IT department anymore. Most of the programming jobs will be for vendors, if the whole "cloud computing" fad turns out to be more than a fad.
4. Don't assume you can choose where you work, if that's important to you. Companies are shifting their support functions to cheaper locations within the US, so keep that in mind unless you don't care about living in Boston vs. Omaha.
So, as always IT and programming are fun fields to be in, but just keep in mind that the employment prospects are still unstable. If you're the kind who doesn't mind bouncing from one 6-month contract to another, you'll do fine. Full time work might be harder to come by.
The proper beginning is, "You know what really grinds my gears?"
Wait till they find out that it was the financial industry hiring CS grads in droves, and that it was the quants who figured out that mortgage-backed securities couldn't go south.
"once Obama goes and cuts missile defense, cuts the aircraft carrier, submarine and F-22 fighter"
We should be so lucky.
Obama had better cut all those programs. Carriers are archaic, we can reach around the globe w/ an R/C plane powered by the electricity generated by mom's farts. Submarines, well, I'm w/ you on that one. The f-22 is outdated now.
Just cause we are going to cut some millitary programs doesn't mean we won't invest in others. Sharks w/ Lazors coming soon!
How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
Wwwwoooohhhhoooo !
Java , C++, LateX, and Your Choice of WWW Browser.
Yours In Communism,
Kilgore Trout
You forgot Future Combat Systems (FCS). There's something like 200,000 of us on that program (I'm not an engineer, but I work for a bunch of them) and when they cut FCS, that's a whole lot of engineers looking for work.
Because funding in alternative energy, scientific research, and infrastructure does not create "genuine" engineering jobs at all.
I can think of
The matrix
Tron
That movie with ryan philippe that was a programmer and bill gates ate chips.
Can I have some help completing the list please?
These are kids that have learned that MBAs aren't in demand any more since the financial collapse and are going into computers because it is the only decent paying job left that doesn't require an advanced degree.
It's like 1999 all over again.
love is just extroverted narcissism
Because funding in alternative energy, scientific research, and infrastructure does not create "genuine" engineering jobs at all.
SO like, can you name me one product the stimulus actually creates then? I think it doesn't do anything or make anything.
This is my sig.
i don't even want to begin to think about LIFO in a sexual context
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
The demand for tech jobs may rise further thanks to the Obama Administration's stimulus package, which could create nearly 1 million new tech jobs."
You want to create tech jobs, Mr. Government? Send back the H1B Visas to their home countries, and stop letting more in here for big corporations to hire cheaper than Americans.
-- If we don't stand up for our rights, now, there will be no right to stand up for them later.
No, I didn't RTFA.
I'm thinking that a great number of these may well be current IT people who never had a degree who, seeing the ax starting to fall, are trying to finally hustle to get some validation for their position or at least secure more power in their search for a new position. I would think that when people start to worry about their job they look for a way to make themselves more marketable. I wonder if there is a way to see if the numbers of 'students' trying to pass entry and mid level certs is going up too? I wouldn't be surprised to see this happening.
Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
so you are saying they should retrain for a job in astronomy?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Maybe so, but I have to get to work, so if you don't mind, I'd appreciate it if you could go ahead and put $20 on pump #3
Even though both IT and engineering require the ability to program computers, the two are NOT the same when viewed from the perspective of corporate management:
If I had to give just one piece of advice to a CS major it would be this: Pick your first job carefully. Once you have become known as an IT person, programmer, or engineer, the title will tend to stick. It is much easier to get hired as an engineer straight out of college than to convince a potential employer that your IT experience is relevant to engineering.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
Interesting statistic in that I am about to get laid off (BSCS with 15+ years of experience), along with four other programmers (two already gone), two software QA, a manager, and two tech support people. I've already interviewed with one company over a week and a half ago and haven't heard back yet. I heard through an acquaintance that the company's HR was overwhelmed with the number of applicants. It feels kind of like the government's inflation rate statistic; the annual retported number has been real low for the last decade in spite of very noticebale changes at the checkouts.
man, where is my +1 awesome.... ;) Need we remind people of how many movies are made about our jobs...hackers, sneakers, swordfish, several TV channels, Entire clothing lines, not to mention the gadgets we were ridiculed for carrying around 10-20 years ago are the fashion accessories of today. Ya, we are not cool...
CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?
I have been programming since I was 8 years old (made a kick ass dog racing game in 2nd grade), but decided to be a philosophy major at UCLA instead of a CS major. The best decision I ever made. My philosophy training (I specialized in formal logic theory) has helped my programming more than any CS class would have. A good programmer needs to be able to teach themselves, or they will be obsolete almost immediately. Learning how to use logic and transform abstract human concepts into a formal logic representation is the true base skill for programmers.
It worked out for me.... 4 years removed from graduation, I have a great programming job that I love, making excellent money, and happy as can be.
The problem with new CS/IT grads is that they mostly do not know how to design software or even how a computer works at a basic level. In the last ten or more years most of these computer science majors are familiar with Java but know no assembly and very little C and have more training in Web design than in systems analysis.
This, however, works well for me. I work as a consultant that is parachuted into projects that are past due and over budget and fix them. True, I have thirty years of experience and that can not be duplicated in four years of college, but I mostly fix very basic mistakes made by people that are ignorant of the technology or the methodology.
Hopefully the universities and colleges will start teaching the basics (especially documentation) and train truly professional IT people. It's frustrating and unnerving to have someone who does Visual Basic Scripts in Excel call themselves a software engineer and are in charge of a large ERP project.
With the finance industry devastated after it was revealed the entire investment market is a giant shell game, intelligent underachievers that like playing with numbers flock to universities in search of other career paths where they've been lead to believe they can make millions of dollars doing nothing.
CS majors were always cool.
No. They were only cool when they were allowed entry into the air conditioned server room.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
I'd mod you interesting if you had no forgotten Linux.
Negotiations are under way for stimulus funds in my state to be used to construct an industrial park where I live. If the deal goes through, several battery manufacturers and at least one auto parts maker will set up shop here because we provided the facilities.
I can't say it's making anything yet, but the odds are good that it will soon. Setup time and all that fun stuff. I just hope my town isn't the only example.
Nobody goes into CS because it's cool. You go in because there are jobs there and/or you are interested in it. I chose CE for both of those reasons.
Assuming they don't move you all to Advanced Combat Systems.
I don't think I want to be associated with Swordfish. You should have mentioned Office Space, though.
I was having much the same thoughts. I graduated with a degree in Information Systems Engineering, which sort of is a cross over of CS & EEE and have worked IT before for quite a while (in development now) and what you've said is spot on.
The theory and appreciation you get for systems as a whole with CS does give you an analytic edge I think even if you're not writing a compiler or building some new sorting algorithm...
+1 insightful if i had the points...
jaymz
Well that's cool then. If states are building manufacturing with it, then that's really good.
This is my sig.
The difference between "defense" systems and alternative energy is that the government doesn't seem to care all that much if China builds a better solar panel and we borrow money from them to buy some. They do get their undies in a twist when China builds a better submarine since we don't want to trust them that the sub doesn't have a secret "HERE I AM!" function hidden in it.
I traded all my mod points for these magic beans.
Linux = mostly underground, as far as the general public is concerned. However, I'd take a job as a LAMP admin rather than Windows developing any day.
IIRC, Microsoft is the largest H-1B employer in the United States. Microsoft has publicly (and repeatedly) stated that they do not maintain separate salary tracks for their foreign employees - that is, they pay foreigners the exact same amount they could pay someone born in the United States.
Payroll statistics are made available to the DHS/USCIS and these statistics corroborate Microsoft's statements.
So, now that you understand that there isn't some great demon lurking across the border waiting to devour your jobs and your womenfolk, you have the opportunity (and, from your outburst, the free time) to investigate why Americans aren't as competitive in the same jobs as someone from another country.
Here's a hint: it might start with the fact that you automatically blame others for your own problems.
No, nerds were only cool in the seventies when we could disguise ourselves as hippies.
Free Martian Whores!
and will always be. It is not, however, always popular. To the extent CS attracts people who are not interested in Computers, or Science, but only better employment prospects, that is a shame. Why can't they study MIS or art history or something?
Damn right. The rest of the time we're just hot.
One bright young spark was emphatic that he was going to do IT and become rich - IT, he said, was only going to continue growing. Fair enough. But this was 1998, and by the time he graduated in 2002, the dot-com bubble was over and suddenly employment opportunities for CSIT people were much more scarce.
I, on the other hand, chose my degree not on the basis of its potential remuneration, but solely because I loved engineering (of the non-software kind) and I wanted to spend my life building cool shit. I wonder how many people signed up for IT expecting to be Bill Gates, only to find that they were condemned to spend their time developing webpages for the local kennel club.
Seriously, kids - a job that makes scads of money may never come your way, but it's not hard to get a job that brings you happiness and satisfaction. If you get a job that you truly enjoy, you'll never work again.
Hell, I spent my day putting together RC helicopters to make robots of out - I can't believe they PAY me to do that.
Scientists point out problems, engineers fix them
altslashdot.org: The future of slashdot.
As opposed to the literally countless movies glorifying macho, burly men with big egos and hairy chests? Nevermind the fact that they are witty tree trunks with an equally large intelligence.
The few examples you wrote really are few and far between, if not utterly against the current media portrayal of geeks and nerds. In fact, I reckon I've seen more movies where geeks/nerds are ridiculed than I have seen movies where nerds are glorified, or happen to be the main protagonists.
It's just the way things currently are. And as much as it bothers me, I've learned to accept it and embrace it.
Likewise for Hackers
We have a saying here at Carnegie Mellon regarding the guys (especially "cool" CS majors): 'the odds are good, but the goods may be odd.'
Omnes stulti sunt.
The *starting* salary for a teacher in Cobb County, GA (Atlanta suburb) is 39K, right out of college. Not great, but not terrible, especially considering the (relatively) low-pressure.
College teaching is also lower paid that industry, but not terrible (a starting CS prof in a non-research uni around Atlanta is probably around 70K; 85 or so if you work summers, and you still get more vacation that most people :)
Hey, you got that from PHD comics... Or it was the other way around. Meh...
- Transformers
- Independence Day
- Minority Report
- Jerassic Park
- Last year's film about computer trying to kill twin brother of master programmer because twin's voice ID could be used to authenticate a shutdown command
I see a lot of comments about outsourcing in India, and everybody feels threatened about this (I'm in Romania btw) .. but I'm interested on hearing from someone that had to deal with Indian programmers and had a good experience .. ? I had to deal with them only a few times and I thank god that I don't need to do it anymore, I have colleagues that bitch daily about the experience ...
IMHO, outsource will go to India because they are cheap, they only know how to say "yes sir", but after the companies realize that "yes sir" means "we will try but probably fail" and the resulting code is shitty, requires 10 times more hardware and breaks every few minutes, they will move back to better educated areas.
Why would anyone pick up a CS degree to become an IT guy? It seems like complete overkill. I'm doing CS and Comp Engr and I know for a fact that that is exactly what I _don't_ want to do.
BSD is for people who love Unix, Linux is for people who hate Microsoft.
Actually, between the Angelina Jolie nudity and the awesomeness of a 28.8 Kbps modem, Hackers was pretty damn cool. Ridiculous, but cool.
How can anyone want to not be associated with the lyrics "you can get this lap dance here for free".
Free lap dances, all you have to do is show up and talk nonsense about symmetric ciphers? I'm in---Why do you think I'm doing my phd in crypto?
:-O
I'm making the jump myself -- after 11 years in the newspaper business -- into information technology. They pay is better. I'm hoping I can earn somewhere in the $50k+ range as an IT worker, up from the mid-20s to low 30s that a typical newspaper reporter position pays. But I'm not going to college again; I'm just reading a lot of books on my own time and teaching myself.
Poor kids.
Don't confuse geeks and computer science. Geeks are not cool. Geek is the definition of UNcool (look it up - you see Jerry Lewis, highwaters and white socks and pocket protector, in the dic. pic.). Computer science (not to be confused with CS101 or CS6666) is something entirely different.
you should have kept going - not sure if you're Brit, but I've got a few British friends and a British coworker, so I hear lots of them... ...then I was walking on the pavement, which I believe you yanks call a sidewalk... ...then I was in my flat, which you yanks call an apartment... ...I had me some mince, chips, then a biscuit, and you yanks would say I had chopped beef and fries, then had a cookie... (my coworker said that one intentionally once, not quite like that, but close).
some other weird ones I know (mostly car related because I tend to be in a car when I hear them) boot and bonnet (trunk and hood), silencer (muffler), car park (parking lot), and flyover (overpass). Oh yeah - and a plaster (band-aid) and banger and mash (sausage and mashed potatoes). Also many of the common ones, but that is overkill (e.g. loo)
Computer Science is not the path to take to go into IT, despite what TFA states.
I major in information science. While I'll admit I might not know the latest wizbang algorithms, the fact of the matter is, 90% of the things a business needs is really just basic algerbra. (X+Y)*z, that sort of thing.
I've also noticed that while my friends who are CS or Software Engineering majors might be able to make a more efficient program, they know very little about things like networking or database administration. Hell, I've seen them struggle with things as basic as getting their second monitor hooked up.
I'm much more confident I can get a job with my IS degree, and a little time spent on my own to learn better programming skills than a CS major who only knows code and nothing else.
England and America (or the UK and the USA) are two nations united by a common ocean and divided by a common language.
When you are doing reading corporate propaganda from a lobbyist group. You might want to take a look at comments from real IT pros:
http://techtoil.org/wiki/doku.php?id=articles:news_and_commentary
A BSCS is almost as difficult as a degree in engineering, but it's as worthless as a degree in Liberal Arts.
Look at the job ads, employers don't give a damn about your silly BSCS, they want experience - many years of professional, verifiable, recent experience, and in many different technologies, and no jobs have the same requirements.
Maybe there are few slashdot readers, who don't live in caves, who may have noticed that practically ever major tech employer has been laying workers by the thousands - especially US IT workers. And yet you are going to believe this corporate sponsored bullshit? You have my pity.
This is good news for me! I may be Canadian, but doesn't change that I'm in college for computer science, and boy do these numbers sound good to me.
Nice try, but I'm not a brit, and nor was I taking the piss out of the americans. Funny how trying to be concise for all parts of an international readership gets you modded "flamebait" these days. Perhaps mods will take the time to read more than the first line of a post before deciding it doesn't have a point.
Scientists point out problems, engineers fix them
altslashdot.org: The future of slashdot.
Don't be an ass. You know where you are.
Support NRA, America's oldest civil rights group.
I can ditch my medieval studies degree now!
IT Crowd...nuff said
I would get a double major in CS and operations research. I have the CS degree, currently work in optimization and I'm finding tremendous potential for individuals with this background.
Unlike physics, "software engineering" is a fuzzy science, not far off from economics, psychology, or journalism. Outside of machine-oriented performance, there's not a lot of real science and math in the field, only pet theories. The problem is that there are too many variables and too few practical ways to measure and isolate all these variables accurately.
At best such courses can make one familiar with the various schools of thought and/or paradigms and methodologies and give the stated justification for them. There is just no easy way to measure the "right" answer.
Table-ized A.I.
I don't know why you got a -1 rating. It sounds like an honest response to me, even if a little non-PC (which is not reason enough to get -1 in my opin). The mistake people make is thinking that software development is about making a better mouse-trap.
In my observation, it's about "playing the game" and moving into management eventually. As you pointed out, heads-down coding is becoming a cheap global commodity. "Brains are cheap" in essence, like a WalMart tissue holder. Thus, one must schmooze and become "part of the club" to survive.
You can know the customer better than some bright $2 PhD in Timbuktu because you *can* go to lunch with the customer. You must take advantage of this. Steve Jobs beats his Asian competitors because he knows his customer base in the US, NOT because he invents things that never existed (in isolation). Bullsh*tting and sales is USA's comparative advantage, I hate to say. We kid ourselves and say its all about raw intellectual merit with happy brochure-talk. It's not. The "system" lies to the kids. We're just the unwelcome messengers.
I wish you luck, dude.
Table-ized A.I.
Hi,
found the fact that for the first time in six years CS programs make a comeback in enrollment very interesting: in case you'd have a look to following article by John Markoff
http://www.iht.com/bin/printfriendly.php?id=20887972
it gives some opinions about, as this one
"This could be a sign that we are beginning to make headway as well as increased attention, increased interest and increased investment," said Andrew A. Chien, director of research at Intel