Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Second Swedish ISP Starts Scrubbing IP Addresses

Posted by timothy on from the you-may-borrow-the-hashed-list-though dept.

Marzubus writes "Tele2, a popular Swedish ISP, has started to remove IP addresses from its logs. This is the second ISP in Sweden to adopt this new privacy protection strategy." We discussed not long ago when another ISP, Bahnhof, started doing the same. Perhaps this is the corporate equivalent of joining the Pirate Party.

92 comments

  1. This will likely keep happening by Jugalator · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's a competitive advantage, after all. Soon enough, I imagine all major ISP's here will do this as long as there isn't new legislation against it. These are also all very good signs of just how aggressive and poorly thought out the IPRED law in reality was.

    --
    Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    1. Re:This will likely keep happening by Bios_Hakr · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It also makes pretty good business sense. You never have to spend a few hours chasing backups of logs for investigations. There just isn't anything there for the police to want to look at.

      --
      I'd rather you do it wrong, than for me to have to do it at all.
    2. Re:This will likely keep happening by SausageOfDoom · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Never going to happen in the UK though - it's now a legal requirement that ISPs log all IPs. And all e-mail headers. And soon all web requests. And no doubt keyloggers shortly after that.

      And a good thing too! Let's stop those damned terrorists, criminals, paedophiles and other sexual deviants! Living in the UK is awesome - just look how much our government cares about our well-being!

    3. Re:This will likely keep happening by Jurily · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It also makes pretty good business sense. You never have to spend a few hours chasing backups of logs for investigations. There just isn't anything there for the police to want to look at.

      Not having to be a snail for the next life is also a plus.

    4. Re:This will likely keep happening by Bios_Hakr · · Score: 1

      An ISP could put its logging servers in Germany or France though. If the logs are out of reach, the gov can pound sand...

      --
      I'd rather you do it wrong, than for me to have to do it at all.
    5. Re:This will likely keep happening by psyclone · · Score: 1

      An ISP could put its logging servers in Germany or France though. If the logs are out of reach, the gov can pound sand.

      Not if you want to continue doing business in the UK.

    6. Re:This will likely keep happening by SausageOfDoom · · Score: 1, Informative

      But why would you, if you haven't got anything to hide? The only people who would do this must be terrorists, or users of prostitutes! We should lock you up to protect the children. What a shame we didn't get the 42 day detention-without-charge law passed - still, we can hold you for 28, it's better than nothing.

    7. Re:This will likely keep happening by SausageOfDoom · · Score: 1

      You must be one of those hippies who keep on preaching about rights and liberty. Good job that soon we'll have a central database linked to your compulsory ID card and the GPS tracker in your car, at least then we'll be able to keep an eye on you and your subversive attitude.

    8. Re:This will likely keep happening by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Using prostitutes is not illegal in the UK.

    9. Re:This will likely keep happening by SausageOfDoom · · Score: 1

      Using prostitutes is not illegal in the UK *yet*.

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/men-targeted-for-buying-sex-with-slaves-1025039.html

      But thank god we've got people like Harriet Harman and Jacqui Smith running the country. Soon we'll have banned this sick filth, and the morally corrupt will be where they belong - behind bars!

      Incidentally, we're about to build 5 new prisons. And to think some cynical people are pointing out that we're in a recession, but if someone who loses their job is sent to prison, they no longer show up on unemployment records. Nonsense! We're cleaning up the country!

    10. Re:This will likely keep happening by cstdenis · · Score: 1

      Parent message was automatically edited in stream by government filters.

      --
      1984 was not supposed to be an instruction manual.
    11. Re:This will likely keep happening by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Excuse me while I go visit my travel agent...

      I've got some unplanned "traveling" to do.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    12. Re:This will likely keep happening by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Never going to happen in the UK though - it's now a legal requirement that ISPs log all IPs. And all e-mail headers. And soon all web requests. And no doubt keyloggers shortly after that.

      And a good thing too! Let's stop those damned terrorists, criminals, paedophiles and other sexual deviants! Living in the UK is awesome - just look how much our government cares about our well-being!

      Well, you might not have much privacy left there unfortunately, but look on the bright side, you're still good humored!

    13. Re:This will likely keep happening by eleuthero · · Score: 1

      When the options are 1) depression leading to all sorts of negative things or 2) making light of the world--which do think is going to give you a happier life in the midst of corrupt runaway government?

    14. Re:This will likely keep happening by Erie+Ed · · Score: 1

      obvious troll is obvious

    15. Re:This will likely keep happening by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's now a legal requirement that ISPs log all IPs. And all e-mail headers.

      My ISP disagree

    16. Re:This will likely keep happening by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      preferably, store all the logs in paper binders, unsorted.

    17. Re:This will likely keep happening by SausageOfDoom · · Score: 1

      Err... there's a big difference between trolling and sarcasm. Oh well, at least you didn't have mod points like the idiot mod who marked my great-grandparent post as flamebait.

    18. Re:This will likely keep happening by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      preferably, store all the logs in paper binders, unsorted.

      Printed in wingdings font...

    19. Re:This will likely keep happening by legirons · · Score: 1

      Incidentally, we're about to build 5 new prisons

      well, once they've locked-up everyone who views stick-figure porn* or keeps a secret from the government, they'd have to let out all the burglars

      * yes I know that's australia, but UK law does the same thing now

    20. Re:This will likely keep happening by legirons · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Incidentally, we're about to build 5 new prisons. And to think some cynical people are pointing out that we're in a recession

      Uhh, recessions cause increases in crime. Think about it for a moment - lots of people with no jobs and no money and nothing to lose and nothing better to do -- what do you expect to happen if not burglaries?

    21. Re:This will likely keep happening by SausageOfDoom · · Score: 1

      Well gosh. That is a shocker.

      And you may notice that you missed my point. Not that I particularly agree with my point; the new prisons will not house nearly enough people to make any sizeable dent in the unemployment figures. For that, we have to employ them in local government.

      "Your local council is now hiring: chief executive bathroom attendant, PA to the chief executive bathroom attendant, researchers for the chief executive bathroom attendant, bathroom assistants, bathroom assistant managers, bathroom assistant manager rota managers, bathroom secretaries, and bathroom technicians, all for the ground floor male toilets. For the ground floor female toilets we are looking for..."

    22. Re:This will likely keep happening by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Good job that soon we'll have a central database linked to your compulsory ID card and the GPS tracker in your car, at least then we'll be able to keep an eye on you and your subversive attitude.

      While that is certainly good, it might also be a good idea to make these people wear some kind of visual sign, so that other people know to avoid them in the streets. Maybe some kind of geometric pattern, a star or triangle or something in pink or yellow, worn on the breast?

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    23. Re:This will likely keep happening by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      dude! UK is fucked up! it's the rehearsal of a centralized global government. If coward is subversive youre a fucking con eating babies for breakfast.

    24. Re:This will likely keep happening by legirons · · Score: 1

      And you may notice that you missed my point. Not that I particularly agree with my point; the new prisons will not house nearly enough people to make any sizeable dent in the unemployment figures. For that, we have to employ them in local government.

      Or let the government pay them to work at macdonalds

    25. Re:This will likely keep happening by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, now you know what us American colonists had to put up with.

      Also, a bit of advice: don't mess with British tea, as your government doesn't like people insulting their tea.

    26. Re:This will likely keep happening by SausageOfDoom · · Score: 1

      My grasp of history is poor, but even I know that the internet didn't exist in the 18th century.

      However, I do know that you still owe us around half a million pounds for destroying our tea (adjusted for inflation, of course).

    27. Re:This will likely keep happening by moon3 · · Score: 1

      It is much much worse.

      You can, wait for it, forge fake logs, oh yea, like 123, and abuse anybody. Judges take these text logs as hard evidence, that is scary, really scary. CCTVs footage is one thing but, text logs trace, misuse and abuse another. They see it as the same kind of evidence.

      Any so called "log evidence" is laughable and should be banned. Now every other PC have some mal-ware, trojan, virus, bot, you name it installed, that takes this log evidence to another crazy level. Just let you grand mom click some smileys on the web a wait for the bad things to happen when her netbook starts to spam or serve *****.

    28. Re:This will likely keep happening by Threni · · Score: 1

      I don't see anything in the current UK law to prevent you having a server in the US and doing your surfing/emailing via that.

    29. Re:This will likely keep happening by SausageOfDoom · · Score: 1

      If they start doing that, we'll just have to ban encrypted communication. One way or another, we have to protect the children!

  2. Pirates of the Scandinavian by Drakkenmensch · · Score: 0

    Any day now, expect your humdrum day at work to be interrupted by a crew of stockbroker corsairs and account privateers assaulting your office tower from the broadside of the Crimson Permanent Assurance.

  3. Incorrect. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    The first ISP, Barnhof, did not start doing this, they have been doing this since 96 (iirc).

  4. Actually there are a few more than two. by ckret · · Score: 5, Informative

    here you can see a few other ISP's that erases logs.
    This behaviour is not a circumvention of the IPPRED law but an enforcement of law of electronic communication that states that customerinformation that is not needed for daily operations must be erased as soon as possible.
    This law in itself nullifies the IPRED law.

  5. Didn't Bahnhof do this all along? by Bromskloss · · Score: 3, Informative

    As opposed to starting just recently. At least that's what one Slashdotter told us last time.

    And it's "Bahnhof", not "Barnhof". Hehe.

    --
    Swedish plasma phys. PhD student; MSc EE; knows maths, programming, electronics; finance interest; seeks opportunities
    1. Re:Didn't Bahnhof do this all along? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And it's "Bahnhof", not "Barnhof".

      What's the difference? I'm from Boston, you insensitive clod.

    2. Re:Didn't Bahnhof do this all along? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'Bahnhof' is German for '[train] station'. 'Barnhof' would mean "children's [royal] court" or something in Swedish. (if you accept 'hof' as the old-fashioned way of spelling 'hov')

    3. Re:Didn't Bahnhof do this all along? by legirons · · Score: 1

      Plus bahnhof have the geeky data centre - is there anything else we should consider when deciding on an ISP?

  6. Incorrect.2 by Meneth · · Score: 5, Informative

    Tele2 is not the second Swedish ISP to scrub IP-customer records. More like the thirteenth. It's a big ISP, though. I suppose that's why people could make the mistake.

  7. Wouldn't it be cool if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It would be cool if everyone was wired up with "dark fiber" (or "dark copper") connected to multiple-CO-shared equipment and, due to laws enacted by enlightened politicians, you could choose any ISP in the world to be "your ISP"
    Here in Calgary Canada, I would even pay a premium for this Swedish ISP to be "my ISP"

    1. Re:Wouldn't it be cool if... by xonar · · Score: 1

      That sounds expensive-licious! Sign me up!

  8. ISPs and law enforcement by BigHungryJoe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Could ISPs get away with this in the United States without facing legal issues or retribution from the cops?

    I love this idea - I don't trust law enforcement at all and would pay a premium to know that I wasn't leaving logs with my ISP for the cops to read.

    America is such a "law and order" country though, the cops wield so much power that I doubt such an ISP would be allowed to exist.

    1. Re:ISPs and law enforcement by SwedishPenguin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Oh they will "correct" this here as well soon enough. The data retention directive will be implemented this fall, and all the ISPs will be forced to keep logs for at least 6 months.

      Swedes: vote for the Pirate Party in European Parliament election on the 7th of June, early voting begins on the 20th of May
      Other EU citizens: vote for whatever party has the most integrity friendly platform.

      We're facing a big problem in the EU. Corruption is rampant among our politicians and the eagerness of politicians to control our society's access to information and surveil our activities has never been higher.

    2. Re:ISPs and law enforcement by reashlin · · Score: 1

      So I my log servers rack fell over yesterday and the HDDs are fecked. So sue me.

      Honestly there is almost no way anybody can guarantee any digital data is available tomorrow - one of a million things could happen. Especially if your backup policy is not as good as you hoped it was.

    3. Re:ISPs and law enforcement by Atlantis-Rising · · Score: 1

      And if that happened, I'm sure there would be consequences. That's the legal stick. You'd be fined, or imprisoned. It's in your best interests to make your backup policy sufficient.

      --
      "It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
    4. Re:ISPs and law enforcement by Bios_Hakr · · Score: 1

      You could write a corporate retention policy that stated you store logs in memory on a rotating basis. And you maintain enough memory to track back for 2 days or so.

      Still, I think it might be legally hard to do that. And you would have at least one or two police raids before a judge finally slapped the cops hard enough to make them stop trying.

      --
      I'd rather you do it wrong, than for me to have to do it at all.
    5. Re:ISPs and law enforcement by King_TJ · · Score: 0

      The problem I think you'd have is, even IF your ISP guaranteed they weren't leaving any logs behind, most of the other "big name" web sites you use *do* log your activity.

      For example, good old Google keeps records of every single search ever done and which IP address it originated from!

      (I was watching a news story not that long ago about a murder suspect that was prosecuted largely because they were able to subpoena Google to turn over all of the search queries done by this individual. They found all sorts of searches related to the type of murder he was suspected of doing, and methods to cover it up, etc.)

    6. Re:ISPs and law enforcement by ynohoo · · Score: 1

      no, it is in their interest to drag the debacle through the courts for as long as possible, at least until SCOTUS tells the government "what the the were you thinking, haven't you read the constitution?".

      --
      need a free COBOL editor for Windows?
    7. Re:ISPs and law enforcement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well thats really stupid!!! i HATE people like you that stictly hold up "the legal stick" which is your butt stick, thats where you can shove it, this is a human world, human errors happen all the time, if not do you think we would be in a economic crisis.

      my final thought: f*** off

    8. Re:ISPs and law enforcement by Kaboom13 · · Score: 1

      Enjoy having your entire server room confiscated in a raid for "forensics". If you are very lucky, and hire some very expensive lawyers, you will have your equipment back in 2 to 3 years.

    9. Re:ISPs and law enforcement by CoolCalmChris · · Score: 1

      Could ISPs get away with this in the United States without facing legal issues or retribution from the cops?

      Two words- Time Warner. They wouldn't think twice about making their cable service a loss leader if this became an issue, nor would they hesitate to paint the boutique "we don't keep logs" ISPs as being complicit in everything from piracy to terrorism in the press...oh wait, they ARE the press. I guess that's covered.

      Law enforcement almost seems like an afterthought when corporations like Time Warner have control over every aspect of the media.

  9. Yeah, remove the IP address by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They'll just replace it with your name, address, telephone number and credit card details.

  10. Not gonna help much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's huge pressure on legislators from the EU and others to force ISPs to keep records for several years for "security" reasons. In the end the Swedish government will give in, and probably not even too reluctantly.

    1. Re:Not gonna help much by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      What happens when everyone says piss off? The internet dissipates?

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
  11. Simply Economics by nathan.fulton · · Score: 3, Interesting

    FTS: "Perhaps this is the corporate equivalent of joining the Pirate Party."

    Sorry, but no. The pirate party is politically motivated. The motivations of ISPs are purely economic. People don't like the government spying on everything they do, so they will choose services that say "fuck you" to the gov. This is simple business decision making, and should be seen as nothing more or less. Should the government make these actions punishable by fines that exceed new revenues (or if the *AA found a way to create economic incentives,) ISPs would switch back in a heart beat.

    1. Re:Simply Economics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Most, if not all, of politics are motivated by economics so I fail to see your point.

    2. Re:Simply Economics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shh. Don't poke the petty libertarian. He might bite.

    3. Re:Simply Economics by FourthLaw · · Score: 1

      Well...it's economic, but I guess not in the way one might immediately think. The number of grandma's that change ISPs for said benefit may or may not be low. HOWEVER, much like US eDiscovery law strategies, sometimes it is far far far safer for a company to keep nothing (or very little) based upon a company policy, rather than get sued for an email from 9 years ago.

      --
      Skilled in differentiating ravens from a writing desks.
  12. Eight ISPs and counting(?) by djonsson · · Score: 3, Informative

    Actually, eight different ISPs have vowed not to keep these records, instead promising to respect the integrity of their users. They've set up a small organization for this purpose at integrity.st [in swedish]. Tele2 is by far the largest ISP to join so far, though.

  13. Self-protection by Corson · · Score: 1

    They probably do it just so they cannot be sued. No trace, no trial.

  14. I asked this on the Bahnhof story... by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

    ... but got no response.

    I don't speak the native language of the ISPs' website. Do they offer a VPN service?

    Bearing the story in mind, I'd pay to link through them. I'd pay quite a lot.

    --
    Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    1. Re:I asked this on the Bahnhof story... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Bahnhof does. No idea about the price of a VPN as you have to contact their sales department. But you can rent a server for ~145$/month and set up your own VPN.

      But if you are looking for a anonymous Swedish VPN service take a look at www.relakks.com. They don't keep any logs either.

      Hope that answers your question.

    2. Re:I asked this on the Bahnhof story... by Talar · · Score: 2

      No, they are just ordinary ISP:s and offer no such service as far as I know, but there are of course others who does like http://ipredator.se/

  15. Data retention time is also interesting by Slyswede · · Score: 4, Informative

    Another interesting aspect in this whole IPRED mess is the amount of time the other ISPs save their IP-address data.

    According to the IPRED law it is up to the lower court to order an ISP to turn over the subscriber information, but only after examining the evidence of possible copyright infringement.

    This means that if the data is saved for a shorter period than the time it normally takes to investigate an infringement, any order to turn over the data would also eventually fail.

    I've heard from at least one ISP that they normally save data for three weeks, so that should be sufficient, unless the courts suddenly decide to start prioritizing these cases. :(

    1. Re:Data retention time is also interesting by Katmando911 · · Score: 1

      Once they receive notice that these logs might be needed in a court case they are probably required to hang on to them until the court officially decides. Otherwise they could be accused of destroying evidence.

  16. Tele2 operates throughout Europe... by captainpanic · · Score: 1

    I wonder if they'll adopt the same strategy in other countries?

    I certainly haven't seen any advertisements yet about "Tele2 - the company that brings small bills and big privacy".

    1. Re:Tele2 operates throughout Europe... by legirons · · Score: 1

      I wonder if they'll adopt the same strategy in other countries?

      I certainly haven't seen any advertisements yet about "Tele2 - the company that brings small bills and big privacy".

      The UK just decided that ISPs should record all internet traffic and store it for a specified period in case the government wants to dip in for a snoop...

      so don't trust anyone in the UK, although exit-nodes here should be okay if they only store IP and timestamp.

  17. this is good news by landaishan · · Score: 1

    fight the power!!

    --
    courage mateship sacrifice endurance
  18. Perspektiv bredband by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A smaller ISP in Lund has also decided to scrub their IP info

  19. Dynamic IP by js_sebastian · · Score: 1

    The problem I think you'd have is, even IF your ISP guaranteed they weren't leaving any logs behind, most of the other "big name" web sites you use *do* log your activity.

    Yeah, but if the IP address cannot be associated to the user (because the ISP has deleted those logs) they won't be able to do much with those logs.

    1. Re:Dynamic IP by maxume · · Score: 1

      If you happen to be the only person from your IP pool who was at such and such a place at such and such a time, and the searches line up with some particular detail, the search log would be plenty useful.

      Sure, it could be pointed out that it doesn't mean all that much, but the people on a jury will like the story.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    2. Re:Dynamic IP by gnick · · Score: 1

      Memo to self:

      Log out of Google before searching for the Army Improvised Munitions pdf.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    3. Re:Dynamic IP by eleuthero · · Score: 1

      the problem is, logging out won't do anything. There's even a note on google that "stealthing" is worthless if IP addresses are tracked by the server with which you are connecting. And... google tracks these.

    4. Re:Dynamic IP by gnick · · Score: 1

      I put my faith in Tor for web-browsing and PeerGuardian 2 for P2P to handle the IP tracking. (I can't remember the last time I needed Tor, though. How many times do you need to download an improvised munitions manual or search for "murder wife untraceable poison"?) But I really do stay logged into Google (typically).

      There was actually an interesting comment yesterday from somebody who was convinced that using PG2 was equivalent to shooting yourself in the foot, but I'm not sold. It's up no matter what I'm doing.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    5. Re:Dynamic IP by Lennie · · Score: 1

      You would atleast need to clear the Google-cookies.

      Atleast for that to be useful, do you really think logging out actually erases any cookies ?

      --
      New things are always on the horizon
  20. Re:hof by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    where does David Hasselhoff fit in?

  21. They are actually not the first, nor the second... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...as there are currently 14 ISPs who has publically committed to this procedure since the clubbing of the IPRED law.

  22. Europe by kinnaz · · Score: 3, Informative

    There was some initiative made by EU some time ago, that all ips need to be logged for some x amount of time, so i doubt we will see this kind of actions in other countries.

  23. Re:hof by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apparently in your lame ass attempt of being funny.

  24. r2k-in-the-vortex by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    /me claps
    tele2 is my cellphone service provider

  25. Name by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The name is Bahnhof. Why is it so hard for some people to get the name right?

    1. Re:Name by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      by Anonymous Coward
      The name is Bahnhof. Why is it so hard for some people to get the name right?

      This from a guy who didn't get his login name right!

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    2. Re:Name by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      by Anonymous Coward

      This is my name, you insensitive ... oh, never mind.

  26. Re:hof by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hassel = hazel, so: hazel court. Sounds very elfin/la-la-la-ish.

  27. Mod up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who modded this flamebait? I left the UK and don't intend on returning for these precise reasons. I can still detect sarcasm when I see it though!

  28. And what about security? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If one or more of their users is involved in trying to break into another system, participating in a bot-net, sending spam, etc. how will the ISP's audit their logs to determine what account is involved?

    I am all for privacy but it sounds like those ISP's are about to become the next great hidey-hole for bot-nets and users that want to hack into other systems anonymously.

    There has to be some way for the ISP's to be able to respond to such requests, otherwise other networks could start blacklisting the participating ISP networks for not dealing with the above issues. If there is such a way to rebuild the connections to an IP address and thus to a user, then all the work is for nothing as they will still be asked to provide that data (it is just more cumbersome for the ISP administrators).

  29. yet another reason to move to sweden by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've long been an admirer of this country, being both a British and Australian passport holder, to some I guess I'd be considered blessed with beautiful options of residence both throughout Europe and Australia and New Zealand.

    Yet I'm continually tempted by this wonderful country and its intelligent thoughtful people!

  30. UPDATE: They backed down... by pistolhot · · Score: 1

    Tele2 announced today that they will indeed keep the records for a period of 2 weeks. More info here (in Swedish): http://www.metro.se/2009/04/28/32571/tele-2-vi-sparar-visst-kunduppgifter/index.xml