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WHO Investigates Claims That Swine Flu Resulted From Human Error
Tom DBA writes "Bloomberg reports on claims that the swine flu could have been accidentally made in a lab, which are now being investigated by the World Health Organization. Quoting: 'Adrian Gibbs, 75, who collaborated on research that led to the development of Roche Holding AG's Tamiflu drug, said in an interview today that he intends to publish a report suggesting the new strain may have accidentally evolved in eggs scientists use to grow viruses and drugmakers use to make vaccines. Gibbs said that he came to his conclusion as part of an effort to trace the virus's origins by analyzing its genetic blueprint. ... Gibbs and two colleagues analyzed the publicly available sequences of hundreds of amino acids coded by each of the flu virus's eight genes. ... [The CDC's Nancy Cox says] since researchers don't have samples of swine flu viruses from South America and Africa, where the new strain may have evolved, those regions can't be ruled out as natural sources for the new flu.'"
Time has a related story evaluating the World Health Organization's response to H1N1.
My minions! We are discovered!
We must now shift gears from a swine flu pandemic to sharks! With frickin' LASER BEAMS!
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
The people who make Tamiflu released a virus into the wild so people would take Tamiflu . . . some marketing guy/gal just made retirement.
Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.
I suppose even a stopped clock might be right twice a day. But still, there's a difference between man-made on purpose, and man-made by accident/human error. So all the tinfoil hat wearing brigade, can hold off on the "I told you so's".
Cue the widespread panic in 3...2...1 ...And here we go.
So the virus is found in the poor countryside of Mexico...
And someone thinks it was created somewhere in a lab?
I've heard some far out conspiracy theories, but creating a mild flu in a lab and then transported out to Colillacarajo, Mexico? That's just dumb.
After the Merck producing a journal with only positive reviews and their pressure program against MDs that give negative opinions the question begs answer: was it an accident, or was it a marketing movement by some big medicine corporation to grow the market for their products.
Umbrella Corporation releases an apology saying its really, really sorry for unleashing the pandemic flu on the world. They do however guarantee they are taking the appropriate steps to ensure nothing like this will ever happen again.
"[The CDC's Nancy Cox says] since researchers don't have samples of swine flu viruses from South America and Africa, where the new strain may have evolved, those regions can't be ruled out as natural sources"
But let's start spreading those conspiracy theories anyway!
Just waiting for a deaf mute, a #1 hit rock star, an unemployed factory worker and a knocked up teen to come out of the woodwork to fight a demon that wears cowboy boots.
Better known as 318230.
Quick I need to hire some writers to do the 'Disease of the Week' movie for cable TV. Now who can I get cheap to play the evil scientists. I wonder if I could get George W. and Dick C., I hear they are currently unemployed or would that be type casting?
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
If so it didn't work very well...
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
are for tobacco company's to start investing in cancer research...
Obligatory nod to the fictional Captain Trips. Welcome to the real world. In other news, I'll be relocating to Boulder shortly...
Blacker than my baby girl's stare. Black like the veil that the muslimina wear. Black like the planet that they fear...
"This is how science progresses," he said. "Somebody comes up with a wild idea, and then they all pounce on it and kick you to death, and then you start off on another silly idea."
-- the Author of the Study, Adrian Gibbs, 75,
âoeTolerance applies only to persons, but never to truth. Intolerance applies only to truth, but never to persons.
and dumped in the woods.
http://www.kptv.com/slideshow/news/19444624/detail.html
In GOD we trust, all others we monitor.
Sheesh, you would think that virologists never watch movies or something.
wants to claim they were specifically targeted and which government agency; most likely during Bush's term; started it.
Never underestimate the internet for created a mess, or having Washington to create distractions from their back breaking budgets
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Damn! Those rural Mexico biotech labs are really sloppy. I bet the authorities have not been paying attention to their safety practices.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
Queen takes N1, checkmate.
A Virus of such evil that can make most of the population miserable for about a week. However because of a catchy name, and the few people who did die from it didn't quite fit the normal flu victim profile.
Such a thing must be a human fault for creating such a weapon of mass annoyance. Or... It could just be what happens naturally in the word.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
"I don't think it could be a malignant thing," he said. "It's much more likely that some random thing has put these two viruses together."
[to Mr. Incredible]
Syndrome: Oh, no. Elastigirl? You married Elastigirl? Ho, ho, ho...
[sees the kids]
Syndrome: Oh - and got biz-zay!
If you've never been modded as "flamebait" or "troll," you've never tried to argue a minority viewpoint here!
âoeYou really want a very sober assessmentâ of the science behind the claim, Fukuda said May 11 at the WHOâ(TM)s Geneva headquarters.
No thanks. I'll take drunken hysteria please.
Prediction: The real iPhone killer is going to be sex robots from Japan. Think about it.
Tinfoil wearing crowd will never be right since some conspiracy plots simply aren't there, which doesn't prove or disprove any theory.
Since a large number of conspiracies happened, conspiracy deniers tout-court are in the same league of tinfoil wearing crowd.
Back in topic: there are wars for oil, there are environmental disasters, a virus released to raise some money isn't surprising at all.
There are other potential uses too: if economy collapses, crowds may gather with pitchforks the old fashioned way, a more virulent strain of H1N1 would force people to stay home instead.
---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
You know there's two things I've learned in my nearly 30 years on this earth.
Men often do evil things for money. Always have and always will. Now there's various scales of 'evilness' but near everyone does something at some stage that could be called evil by someone.
$5000 on the line will make some people murder and everyone accepts that.
Here's the weird thing:
$100,000,000 dollars on the line and a certain type of person thinks that *nobody* would kill for it. It's crazy! I mean you wouldn't even consider releasing a weak little flu on the world to get a taste of that sort of cash? If not that's great! Your a man of values. But there's a million men on the planet who *would* do it without a single shred of remorse.
Rapid anti-conspiracy nuts are as bad as rabid pro-conspiracy nuts. Both are absolutely delusional about the equally beautiful and grotesque mess that is called humanity.
And for god sakes man do you have *any* idea of some of the shit that big pharma has pulled over the years?? Something like this would hardly even be a stretch.
Obviously, this was planned by the government to kill us all...
...right after they caused 9/11
in Dr. Evil's Lab.
Yours In Revolution,
KIlgore Trout
I think I know where the funding for the lab came from!
I was laughing about it (the conspiracy us government release of HIV story), until I talked to a friend of mine doing research in retroviruses... and he got a real thoughtful look on his face and said "you know..."
So, I wouldn't put it past anyone to release a virus... by mistake or on purpose.
30 years? Hmmm, that's about 0.000000007% of the age of the earth. I'd say you are qualified.
Not that I disagree with you, but let's face it: one other aspect of being human (in addition to your 'evil' conjecture), is that we believe not what the facts bear out but rather what the facts bear out that reinforces what we already believe.
In my almost 37 years I have realized that virtually nothing is 100% provable, and therefore virtually everything is open to some level of interpretation, depending on the interpreter's level of delusion.
No matter what "facts" are released to the public there will be people on both sides of the argument backing up their respective positions, and there will be nothing to convince them otherwise.
Help fight poverty: Punch a poor person.
Mod parent funny.
Enlighten us.
Just because someone would do it doesn't mean they did it.
This would be a logic professors ultimate example of fallacies.
1) Because they would: they did.
2) Because 'anti-conspiracy' people are nut jobs: you can't argue they didn't release the flu.
3) Because some pharma companies did questionable things in the past: this company is doing questionable things now.
Your claims are backed by nothing but wild speculation and logically flawed arguments.
I didn't know that hanging chicken cages over the pig pen constituted a "lab" nowadays, but ok.
~kulakovich
ps - yeah, it is so the pigs get to eat the chicken waste, and exactly how this type of thing happens.
They don't have samples from Transylvania, where the flu may have evolved, either. They have viruses there, right? I'm not sure how that is relevant in any way.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
So, pretty much anywhere?
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
The post you're replying to doesn't claim they "did it", where are you getting that from? Or is slashdot's "Parent" button broken, and you actually replied to a completely different post? Or did you hit "Reply" to the wrong post?
Please come hang out with me ;)
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
Wasn't this the plot of the ReGenesis tv series? Life imitates tv?
and it has always been attributable to human error.
"We shall grapple with the ineffable, and see if we may not eff it after all." - Douglas Adams
So, pretty much anywhere?
It would be incredibly stupid to release it near to the point of creation, and it would be even dumber to not take the tenth of a second to realize this before posting a comment on the subject. With that said, the smartest place to release it would probably be outside the lab of a competitor researching the same or a similar virus. But even more to the point, releasing a swine flu in Mexico is entirely plausible. If you broke it out in Switzerland you'd have a lot of work to do to convince people.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Even if this one isn't, scientists ARE creating lethal strains of H1N1 (aka Spanish Flu/Swine Flu) in the lab. In fact, in 2007, they succeeded in creating an H1N1 variant that kills monkeys in the same way Spanish Flu killed humans. They hope to study how to fight it off, so they will be prepared for another major pandemic. Now, I doubt very much that this is one of them. But don't assume they aren't making them, because they are, and it's not even a secret.
ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
I forgot Mexico had no labs! /sarcasm
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
But let's start spreading those conspiracy theories anyway!
Yes, let's. Business has been slow lately.
http://totallylookslike.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/world-of-warcraft-totally-looks-lilke-swine-flu.jpg
Ok.. Somebody took the plague a little too seriously...
"What the..? This is lemonade! What happened to my culture of amoebic dysentery?"
Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
[...]and now you got swine flue.
Well, at least my house will smell like bacon when I use my woodstove.
> They don't have samples from Transylvania, where the flu may have evolved, either. They have viruses there, right?
Yes, but they probably do have samples from that region. They don't have samples from Mars, and it has been posited that life on Earth originated from Mars, thus if you anti-conspiracy nuts deny the Great Martian H1N1 conspiracy you're all fools!
> I'm not sure how that is relevant in any way.
Thank you for being honest!
People doing evil things for money is not what makes conspiracy theories so unlikely to be true.
People do evil things for money all the time. People do evil things for free all the time, so we certainly don't need the added incentive of money.
Where the train goes off the rails is where a conspiracy theory requires that massive numbers of people are keeping their mouths shut about some grand plan that they're a small part of. That can be done for a short time, but eventually every secret that has more than about 3 people in on it comes out.
Swine flu came from Northrend.
...my nearly 30 years on this earth.
In my 50 years Ive learned when I was 30 I was an idiot
You know there's two things I've learned in my nearly 30 years on this earth.
Here's one thing I've found to be true on my slightly longer years on this earth.
Reasoning purely using peoples motivations and what's _possible_ without looking for actual evidence to support your conclusions will turn you quickly into a conspiracy nut. Conspiracy theories always seem to have at their base the motivations of the people involved. Any "evidence" is always secondary, and contrary evidence is ignored.
AccountKiller
Genetic recipe, not blueprint
30 years? Hmmm, that's about 0.000000007% of the age of the earth.
That's .5% of Earth's age! Damn God-less American lies!
Anon because I played a role in what will be the official response to this claim.
This claim is bullshit. There is *no evidence* to support his claims.
Science progresses when you come up with a credible theory. It makes testable claims based on actual evidence, the current theories fail to explain it, and you have to come up with a new explanation.
This isn't that. This is just a silly idea. It generates press, it eats up valuable time from the members of the flu community, and it will amount to nothing.
No one denies that the current virus is weird. But weird doesn't mean man-made. This is not the first time that Adrian Gibbs has been at odds with the flu community, and he is yet to present credible scientific claim based on fact.
The burden of proof lies with the person who puts forward the wild idea. Once you know that reassortant viruses like this one have been in the swine population for at least the last 10 years, and that the most recent pandemic virus (1968) also came from swine, it is going to take a mountain of evidence to prove this.
It would be impossible to prove that this virus didn't come from a man-made source, so the tin-foil hat brigade will never be satisfied.
For the rest of the population - this is a media grab attempt, and has no basis in fact. Please treat it as such.
The drug cartels are rich. They get their weapons on the open (black) market by the container load, shipped directly to them or they use some of their fleet of planes or boats to bring them in. These are smugglers, remember, and *also* businessmen, they are going to pay wholesale rates direct from the manufacturer/jobber or they are stolen from the Mexican military (and the Mex military is more just an arm of the smugglers than not, same as their upper level so called "police" establishment). Do you have ANY idea -example-what a legal registered select fire AK is going for now in the US, and the hoops you have to jump through to buy and sell them? The smugglers are NOT going to be doing that and paying 3 grand for a 100 buck wholesale rifle.
There is no "gun show loophole" or legit gun dealers in the US who are selling fully automatic rifles and RPGs etc in mass quantities to be smuggled to Mexico. That is just so ludicrous as to be mega laughable. It's a stupid talking point outright lie the gun grabbers came up with. There's a few go south, that's inevitable given the nature of the business and the US insane prohibition war on some drugs, but I'd be surprised if it approached 1%, and most of those would be just fancy expensive pistols so that the various drug cartel soldiers can have little macho weapons to carry. The serious stuff is wholesale blackmarket sourced from asia and eastern europe for the most part.
Rapid anti-conspiracy nuts are as bad as rabid pro-conspiracy nuts. Both are absolutely delusional about the equally beautiful and grotesque mess that is called humanity.
Not even close sir. Conspiracy theories are such because they have so little evidence to back them up. If there were solid logic or evidence behind the conspiracy theory, it would cease to be a conspiracy theory. The number of conspiracy theories that are proven correct compared to the ones that were proven false are staggeringly small. At least the rabid anti-conspiracy nuts have statistics and logic on their side.
This isn't to say that conspiracies can't be correct or that they shouldn't be investigated, but at some point people need to realize that movies and sensational headlines about conspiracy theories that are proven true are made because they are so rare/unlikely.
Where the train goes off the rails is where a conspiracy theory requires that massive numbers of people are keeping their mouths shut about some grand plan that they're a small part of. That can be done for a short time, but eventually every secret that has more than about 3 people in on it comes out.
And if you ever had an affair, you know what the parent is talking about.
Ah, never mind, this is slashdot.
but seriously though, a nice scientific heuristic concerning conspiracy theories is that they all violate ocams razor...
Shouldn't the headline have a question mark at the end?
"$5000 on the line will make some people murder and everyone accepts that."
Not very many, and those people have little to loose. Even in that case I would need to see proof that a person did do something before speculating like an ass.
"Rapid anti-conspiracy nuts "
That makes no damn sense. Unless you mean, "people who don't go off spouting shit they have no evidence of."
"$100,000,000 dollars on the line and a certain type of person thinks that *nobody* would kill for it. "
Not true. The risk is very high to the people doing so, far more then the 100Million. The odds of getting caught are high, and in this case it really isn't needed. The Flu comes around every year and people will be needing Tamiflu.
There is no evidence this was a conspiracy, or done intentional. None at all.
Do conspiracy happen? sure, but the nature of humans means the more people that are in, the shorter it's life span as a secret.
If you are CEO of a company and you want your scientists to create a flu, that means you know about it, the scientists , most people in the lab, and people in supply, at the bare min. need to be in on it. Are all those people getting 100Million dollars as well?
Now, this guy, who is pretty damn experienced in the field, says it might have been accidentally created by human error; however there are strains they don't have access to that could have caused this 'naturally'.
So now we get people running around pointing 'I told you so' even though they still don't know.
Now here is the worst part, the part the drives me up a wall:
The WHO will investigate it, and if they find no evidence, the conspiracy nuts(this is why they are nuts) will still rant about how there [insert person evil here] is suppressing the information.
And if the WHO does find it's man made, these whacks will go on like this proves all there pet theories must be true.
THAT'S why the are conspiracy nut jobs.
"And for god sakes man do you have *any* idea of some of the shit that big pharma has pulled over the years?? Something like this would hardly even be a stretch."
DO you?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I know the feeling. I worked for architects and structural engineers who designed buildings of all types including giant ones like the twin towers... they think the way they buildings fell were rather suspect. These are people who know how things are built and demolished.
that doesn't mean there won't be retribution for the past.
Do you even know what logical fallacy your post is?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Anyone with a reasonable amount of introspection would come to the same conclusion. The sad part is that we simply don't learn from this pattern, and are always assuming that what we believe now is truth. 5/10/15/20 etc... years ago, yeah, I was an idiot. My life's been one long parade of idiocy, and if the pattern holds, I'm still an idiot now (perhaps less of an idiot, but an idiot nonetheless).
"...a virus released to raise some money isn't surprising at all."
What proof is there? Sure, it could possible happen, but how about some fucking proof? oh right, some things happened before, therefore you don't need proof.
Idiot.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
The suspense is killing me! WHO Investigates Claims That Swine Flu Resulted From Human Error??
How come I never heard anything else about the virus stolen from the US Army research facility? I saw it on the news about a week prior to any news about the Swine flu. From what I recall it had a mortality rate of about 1 in 100, and flu like symptoms. Did anyone else hear of this?
There is a book that links a US government lab with the creation and US release of a large number of diseases. It read it. It was an interesting read. Try it yourself.
http://www.amazon.com/Lab-257-Disturbing-Governments-Laboratory/dp/006078184X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242233395&sr=8-1
Learn to love Alaska
"Where the train goes off the rails is where a conspiracy theory requires that massive numbers of people are keeping their mouths shut about some grand plan that they're a small part of. That can be done for a short time, but eventually every secret that has more than about 3 people in on it comes out."
Thank you. I've always been amazed by theories that posit that a cabal of people are so sophisticated that they are completely fooling everybody in the world - EXCEPT those with such clarity of vision and acute mental powers so as to see and understand the conspiracy completely.
"Everyone is stupid but the conspirators and me. And I'm smarter than both."
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
What conspiracy theory? People continually throw around the word "conspiracy" and even worse, combine it with "theory" and suddenly we are supposed to laugh with them at the nutcase coming up with "conspiracy theories"? I'm sorry, but sometimes when something happens, people consider how it happened. We ask ourselves many questions and seek out answers. If it leads us to believe people were involved planning a "conspiracy", then why call them crazy?
What does this story have to do with conspiring? Who conspired? (no pun intended) The article used words like "accident" and "escaped". Even the very statement you quoted has no hint of conspiracy. Why is this modded up? Are those modding this up not aware of the meanings of words?
I see way too many really foolish comments around here. Most of you out there need to lay off the keyboard and start listening/reading more.
D-day was kept quiet, as was the Manhattan project. The bluebird was a secret and how many thousands of men were involved in the design and production of that? The 9/11 Hijackers managed to keep their plans to themselves.
In fact your pretty much saying that state secrets, NDAs, sworn oaths and trade secrets don't exist. Yet reality shows that they clearly do.
What's the exact recipe for Coke a Cola? By your logic it would be out in the open by now. There's thousands of people who would have knowledge of it.
In any case what makes you think that something like this needs large numbers of people? One person could just as easily pull it off, even if only a crackpot scientist ala the anthrax scares.
There's plenty of things that happen because of incompetence or just sheer bad luck. But there's plenty of things that happen that were indeed planned (if only guided) by men.
Saying that there's never a conspiracy is naive and ridiculous especially when it's based on some trite self-styled conventional wisdom that people can't keep secrets when with the correct motivation they clearly can.
Agent Orange in Vietnam
Vietnam Victims society (US Soldiers as guinea pigs)
The Stanley Milgram cruelty experiments
Use of Poison/snakes in warfare and scorpion bombs are part of recorded history.
UFOs came out after 50 years. So there.
Watergate-like stuff was called equally tinfoil.
Every conspiracy theory is based on multiple past events in human history and in popular memory.
No one is saying that this virus was transmitted via a 10Gbps link onto all slashdot viewers' browsers and then from the vision into the brain.
But the levels to which certain agencies and groups of people can fall is completely unimaginable for common men.
Part of the calling out of people insane and paranoid is the fact that the educated section of society cannot accept that indeed people do stoop to such low levels
Abu Ghraib and Josef Fritzl for example.
Or the Rwandan generals.
Or the raped women's militias in Sudan.
Child fighters in Somalia.
This is unthinkable, yet sustained by weapons sales by educated people from western society.
If US, Israel, USSR, France, UK, Germany want to bring peace to this world, they jus5t have to stop selling those guns. Africa will be awesomely developed in 2 decades.
But do they do that? They have not yet.
This is something that you educated should answer.
If you want peace, why sell guns?
Just as you think I can't prove bio-warfare, you can't disprove hypocrisy on Africa.
Even if this were true, does that mean we should stop doing research on virus and vaccine ? Of course not !
Maybe confinment of labs should be improved if this were proven to be true. However, I prefer to live in the XXI century where smallpox has been eradicated thanks to Pasteur rather than banning all this research and having a life expectancy of 40 years.
PS: I am a biologist and have worked in confined labs.
You know there's a few things I've learned in my over 40 years on this earth:
One, people tend to connect dots where there are no dots to connect.
Two, when something looks like the outcome of either malice and incompetence, its almost always incompetence. Malice just takes too much energy.
Three, despite what certain so-called theories may say *cough*intelligent design*cough*, natural selection is still the most kick-ass way to create new life forms on this planet. Its free, low-energy, and guaranteed to produce effective results eventually.
Four, big (insert name of mistrusted industry) is actually trying to make money. Perhaps the money making is not strictly legal, and perhaps purely money making intentions do not lead to the best decisions, but that is what is happening. Schemes (good or evil) to create world-wide effects don't make much money. Think New Coke.
It seems unlikely that this one was made in a lab, by accident or otherwise. Pigs, which swap Influenza both with humans and passing birds, are a natural place for this sort of mixing to occur. But given that it could have happened by a double accident in a sloppy lab (first getting two strains into the same egg, then getting a worker exposed to the result before it's harvested and killed to make vaccine material) it's worth checking.
But announcing it this way just broke security-by-obscurity on a way to make a pandemic on-the-cheap. Fertile eggs, samples of live viruses you want to hybridize, and a minimum of additional equipment and it's something virtually anybody with a spare room and a bit of time and effort could do. As a side-effect it gives them the material to make a vaccine for their own people in the process, long before the virus needs to be tried out on test subjects to test for virulence.
So while this one is no doubt an accident - most likely in the wild, MAYBE in a vaccine lab - don't be surprised if a later one is not. The press coverage of this speculation just showed the world how to replicate the first chapters of "The Stand" on a minimal budget.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
You're missing the point. If this strain is proven to have been created in a lab and doesn't exist in the wild, its release is most definitely a conspiracy, and not a "conspiracy theory".
Journalists writing about the possibility aren't starting conspiracy theories, they're doing investigative journalism, something the world is woefully short on these days.
The intended outcome of writing a piece like this is to report on the possibility. Don't be so quick to dismiss it as crazy "conspiracy theory".
It's also just a conspiracy theory that Baxter released live samples of the H3N2 seasonal flu virus contaminated with H5N1 avian flu in February 2009, right? Oh wait...
http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/02/27/8560781.html
Cross-contamination of flu samples destined for the yearly flu vaccination stockpiles with deadly flu strains just an accident? If you think so, do some research into the quarantine procedures they use in facilities where biological research on flu strains is conducted. Unintentional cross contamination doesn't happen.
1. Create Virus ...
2. Create Vaccine
3. Release Virus
4. Profit
Once I was a four stone apology. Now I am two separate gorillas.
Lab Sr.: Who is on first?
Lab Jr.: No, but I know WHO is investigating us for the swine flu.
Lab Sr.: I must know, tell me who is investigating us?
Lab Jr.: I am telling you, WHO is investigating us.
Lab Sr.: Don't question me, who is investigating us?!
Lab Jr.: WHO is! WHO is investigating us!
Lab Sr.: That's what I am trying to find out, why won't you tell me WHO is investigating us.
Lab Jr.: Nevermind, who is on first?
//Nothing to see here, please move along.
"When 4 people sit down to discuss conspiracy, 3 are government agents and the 4th is a fool."
-- old Soviet aphorism
I read stuff like "someone created swine flu on purpose" and consider that anyone with a smattering of virology (including myself) are laughing so hard we'll all need to be hospitalized, or perhaps committed... yep, it's a conspiracy to get rid of all the virologists, so they can put their evil plan for viral domination in place!
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Not quite - it does require a good amount of people to keep their gobs shut. But thanks to the 'uber-rational' crowd that instantly shoot down anything conspiracy like, are perfect examples of the other type of mind-set required for these things to be possible.
20 folk keeping their gobs shut - 20 others that would never believe such an outrageous idea on principle alone - and 60 idiots who weren't paying enough attention to notice anything had gone wrong in the first place, let alone that one of their bosses was behind it or that they're work had been a part of it.
This case would be much more like you punching me in the face 20 times and then I don't expect the next random person I see to punch me for the 21. This specific company hasn't done anything questionable as far as I know.
Also I doubt this company has ever released diseases upon the world. So once again your punching example makes no sense. In other words it would be like you giving me high fives 20 times and then for some reason on the 21st I expect to get punched.
It makes me sick that people think your post is somehow insightful.
penetration depth rate and spread before real attack.
well-known in history of war,
next question please.
30 years? Hmmm, that's about 0.000000007% of the age of the earth. I'd say you are qualified.
I'm betting the years he's spent on planets other than earth make him qualified.
"You have liberated me from thought."
Was still blamed on the US government? Nope, sorry. In some circles, the US is still being blamed for HIV. It was created for the express purpose of killing black people, or so they claim.
Where is my ticket off of this planet? The people are crazy.
Love sees no species.
.. corrupt third world politicans can always get a few votes by blaming it on "The Man". This *is* the UN we're talking about.
But that has absolutely nothing to do with TFA, which describes what appears to be a valid scientific claim that is being taken seriously by fellow scientists rather than some kind of nefarious conspiracy theory.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
No matter what "facts" are released to the public there will be people on both sides of the argument backing up their respective positions, and there will be nothing to convince them otherwise.
I know you were being facetious, but your reply completely proves this point. (And yes there are actually people who believe the Earth is only 4,000 years old. And they probably think it is flat also. And that humans rode dinosaurs around.)
"But this one goes to 11!"
Else the conspiracy theory wouldn't be out there, would it.
Those secrets were still opened up: there were quite a few breeches of security at Los Alamos (read Feynman's autobiographies) and they wouldn't have happened if Germany hadn't know roughly what was going on there.
Same for D-Day. A MASSIVE amount of false information was sent to make it seem like the crossing was going to be near Dover. But Rommel still wanted more tanks and men at Normandy. They knew, just had to plump for one answer.
And 11/9 IMO *IS* a cover-up. But the cover up is likely to be either or both of
1) Incompetence of government Intel. Someone knew, someone high up said "no way" and that someone high up is hiding.
2) The buildings were done on the cheap and someone important or their friends would be in danger of jail time if found out.
#2 is why the building was destroyed and then carted off and thrown away without forensics looking at it: they would have found sub-standard steel or missing anti-inflammable coatings or some other cost-cutting in the rubble, explaining why the towers fell down.
#1 explains all the stuff that does seem to support a government involvement. It isn't involvement, it's the right information going somewhere and being squashed.
You may get in the first punch, but I guarantee you if you waited 5 seconds you would be hitting the floor before you threw the second one. And that isn't speculation.
You must not be familiar with the concept of eliminating those whose usefulness is no longer needed. In these cases you only need to keep people quiet long enough until you are done with them, a much easier proposition.
... regularly, they probably deserve what they get.
What happens if you violate that secrecy: The Germans or the Japanese win; You spend the rest of your life as a traitor in exile, or receive a long all-expenses paid visit at Fort Leavenworth, or the death penalty.
What happens if you violate that secrecy: The 9/11 Hijackers' plan fails, and they do not become martyrs. They go to jail or are handed back to some country for whom waterboarding looks like a day at the park.
The problem with this is twofold:
First, if it's one scientist operating alone, they would need a lot of knowledge and skill to release this virus, for very little payoff. He doesn't own Tamiflu, he makes a salary for the company that controls it. If they make an extra hundred million dollars this year, he might get a moderate increase in his bonus, but he sure as hell isn't going to rake in a hundred million dollars. It's possible that someone could just be sheer-crazy enough to want to do it out of malice, but it's unlikely you'll find the combination of "talented & well trained" coexisting with "batshit-crazy sociopath". Not impossible, but we're certainly talking fractions of a single percent of the population.
Second, if it's a cabal, then the scientist(s) in question would have to all be ethically & morally bankrupt (not impossible, but not entirely likely), as well as immune to whatever virus they're releasing into the wild (again not impossible, but not entirely likely). They would also, very likely, not see much in the way of money as a result of doing this. So where's the upside? Where's the motivation?
Your example of NDAs, Sworn Oaths, state secrets, and the like are not in the same league as "treason charges with the death penalty as punishment," and where financial motivation is involved, the people with the skills & knowledge to perform this sort of malicious act are very unlikely to profit greatly from doing it.
Yes, it's happened in the past, drug companies have done bad things in the interests of profits. But given the number of drugs on the market, and the relatively few "conspiracy" cases, it seems perfectly reasonable to be skeptical of extraordinary claims when there's a reasonable excuse that doesn't involve a group of twisted, morally bankrupt people deciding to go on a killing spree for the fun of it.
Where the train goes off the rails is where a conspiracy theory requires that massive numbers of people are keeping their mouths shut about some grand plan that they're a small part of.
Although you're right when it comes to 99% of conspiracy theories, in this case _your_ train goes off the rails assuming you need 'massive numbers of people' to pull off engineering a new influenza virus and setting it free. All it takes is a few execs who know a few scientists they can blindly trust, and if everyone involved knows that all the others share the same evil ethics, it isn't unlikely at all a scheme could be devised to create a virus like this without anyone else knowing about it. I'd say you'd need no more than 10 people, probably less.
Try googling seroquel if you think the pharmacy industry doesn't do evil things and tries to cover them up afterwards. It's an anti-deprissant that showed serious health risks and side-effects in preliminary lab studies. These studies somehow dissappeared, the side-effects where never mentioned on any package leaflet, and the drug was approved in multiple countries. Many people who used this drug developed diabetes or ended up seriously overweight, exactly the side-effects described in the lab studies, until these studies somehow surfaced, years later. You explain me how it would be more difficult to cover up creating a new strain of influence, than to have lab studies dissappear in order to get your drug approved.
At least two American Generals were fired for using their knowledge of D-Day as after-dinner conversation at some cocktail parties.
And the Soviets had spies in the Manhattan Project.
Not really good examples.
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
Hear Hear...that's what makes a conspiracy...3 or more people...and one of them will rat.
2 people plotting evil doesn't constitute a conspiracy...it's a business plan!
The problem with crackpot conspiracies is that there always ARE people who come out. Just none with any credibility and/or evidence. There are tons of people with "inside info" on who killed JFK, UFOs, Bigfoot, the Sasquatch, etc. When I first got into politics and the internet, I bought into the Whitewater and Vince Foster conspiracies precisely because there were people with clout saying these things were true. Hell, there was even an article in Time! Same goes for the Swiftboaters and Reagan-created-AIDS.
What I'm saying is, a conspiracy, by my colloquial definition, is a strongly or widely held belief in a dictionary definition conspiracy based on false or little real evidence.
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
30 years? Hmmm, that's about 0.000000007% of the age of the earth.
That's .5% of Earth's age! Damn God-less American lies!
Hah! Made me choke so hard, the stem of my bong flew out and hithe wall
What is the bluebird? Only thing I can find that might be related is a precursor to MKULTRA, the CIA program. Is that it?
-molo
Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
Book called the "White Plague" written by Frank Herbert in 1982. Very informative and scary in regards to Bio-Terrorism possibilities. In fact, the book is no longer available from my local Library as it was pulled from the shelves about 10 years ago.
Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
it is much more likely that a pig frolicking with chicks came up with this flu strain.
oh, wait, nobody here would understand.....
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
You're aware of your mistake of your usage of your?
I read stuff like "someone created swine flu on purpose" and consider that anyone with a smattering of virology (including myself) are laughing so hard we'll all need to be hospitalized, or perhaps committed... yep, it's a conspiracy to get rid of all the virologists, so they can put their evil plan for viral domination in place!
You are equating "created" with "created in order to release in the wild to the detriment of the world." Weapons grade Anthrax was man-made. It was even released in the wild by one man without a conspiracy. So whos to say that there wasn't some research that created this, then it was accidentally or purposefully released and those responsible for its creation, but not release, are covering it up so they don't look bad? It's happened before.
Learn to love Alaska
Shit can happen, yeah. Mistakes get made, people being people. But when there are already an endless supply of natural routes for flu viruses to arrive from, it seems silly to go haring off after unlikely and imagined sources.
My favourite overly-snug tinfoil hat so far was the one that claimed it was engineered in order to kill off 3rd world populations... if so, why release it in bumfuck charparral? Mexico City would have been more to the point.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Men often do evil things for money...Rapid anti-conspiracy nuts are as bad as rabid pro-conspiracy nuts. Both are absolutely delusional about the equally beautiful and grotesque mess that is called humanity.
Conspiracy theories are highly unlikely because they require many people to "conspire", to participate with equal zeal and secrecy to accomplish their plan. Before buying into any conspiracy theory ask yourself: How many people are required to pull this off? What is the likelihood that, in the recruitment process, no "non-believers" would have been solicited to join?
Particularly with the second question, each non-believing, normal Joe unsuccessfully solicited greatly increases the risk that the entire conspiracy will be exposed. This above all else causes me to roll my eyes at conspiracies in general and the 9/11 conspiracy in particular. A 9/11 conspiracy would have required a cast of 100s to pull off and recruiting those 100s would also have included unsuccessfully recruiting 1000s.
Tell you what. You think 9/11 was a government conspiracy? Generate a Gantt chart showing me all of the roles involved in it, the skills required of each role, what they did, and when they did it. Be sure to show the critical path and how information was communicated from person to person. If you can't do that you're wasting everyone's time selling people on this conspiracy or that conspiracy.
If they develop techniques for testing whether an epidemic virus was created in a lab and then sprung on a vulnerable public, we should use them to test the "AIDS conspiracy" allegations along those lines. At the very least to put that conspiracy theory to rest if it's false. If it's not, it'll be well worth it to expose such an evil, and to point out years of coincidence theorists.
--
make install -not war
In fact your pretty much saying that state secrets, NDAs, sworn oaths and trade secrets don't exist. Yet reality shows that they clearly do.
What's the exact recipe for Coke a Cola? By your logic it would be out in the open by now. There's thousands of people who would have knowledge of it.
The ability to conspire is directly related to the moral foundation and personal well-being upon which the conspiracy relies. D-day and the Manhattan project had clear moral and self-preservation motivations contributing to the success of those conspiracies. NDAs aren't conspiracies. State secrets which are morally dubious do tend to get exposed. The owners of the Coke recipe are hardly biting their nails worrying about the moral implications of their recipe getting out.
And the Nazis did hear about the planned Normandy landings. However, they Allies also fed them a lot of false information as counterintelligence, and the Nazis were skeptical that the Allies would land on Normandy anyway. So it's more like the Nazis heard about the planned Normandy invasion, and one through Bretagne, and a Norway invasion, and a southern France invasion (straight from the mouth of a fake Bernard Montgomery), and so on; and they failed to tell which of those was true.
So really, you can hardly ever keep big secrets like D-Day from leaking; what intelligence agencies do is to try to prevent the enemy from believing the leaks.
Are you adequate?
Wait. What?
Are you insinuating that Pharma companies have released 20 other flu strains?
There is absolutely no evidence to support any of these theories.
Yes. I suppose it's possible. Maybe it's even probable, if you insist that they've been up to this sort of thing before [citation-needed]. However, unless you have proof that somebody who could have potentially released H1N1 into the wild had also intentionally released several epidemics in the past, your logic doesn't even stand up.
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
Maybe he's talking about the SR-71 Blackbird?
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
What's the exact recipe for Coke a Cola?
As an Atlanta native, I find that offensive. It's Coca-Cola.
There's a big gap between covering up flaws in your product, and releasing an epidemic.
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
Ya, and many guns smuggled down to central america by rogue CIA and other (para)military jerks during their decades long support for tin pit dictators and wannabes, like the Contras, are still down there. Plane loads and plane loads of them. The are some of the same jerks who are part of the drug smuggling cartels themselves, when they aren't running renditioned victims to torture centers or doing other stuff like smuggling opium out of afghanistan.. So in that sense, ya, some the guns originally came from the US.
I will repeat, the BULK of the firearms, especially the select fire rifles and the larger weapons, are sourced down there to begin with because they have been in the area for awhile, or are imported from overseas directly. Some come from the US lately, but nothing like what is down there already and what is being imported from asia and eastern europe directly. They are finding weapons with no serial numbers. Not ground off numbers, these are production runs, directly manufactured without the numbers to begin with for just such sales. And a lot of the other ones can be traced from official US military sales to nations down there including Mexico, then they "disappear", they don't want to talk about those, because they have no defense for the abysmal state of inter nation gun sales to regimes like the completely corrupt Mexican Army and the various police forces down there. No telling how many death squad people got trained at the school of the americas where they were pushed off as righteous and responsible "military officers" from tyrannies down there, and they then got the weapons to do that stuff. Been going on for *generations* now. Places like that are where the bulk of the weapons come from, not private US sales. Big orders, overseas where they are made, or to tyrannical regimes down there in the past. That crap that proven liars like Pelosi are repeating that 90% come from the US and from legit gun dealers and "gun show loopholes" and so on are just more big fat lies. Some do, of course, but most? Not even close.
If it-it being any official announcement about anything important- comes from a government spokestard or bureaucratic lackey, put your heavy duty skeptic hat on, because the odds are heavy you are being lied to. I mean really, how many thousands of lies, big and small, does it take to sink in that they lie more often than not? What's it gonna take? How much longer are intelligent people going to keep believing those crooks and murderers? If they have an agenda to push, something that is controversial and important to them for pushing their globalist new world order crap, they lie to push it, that is their proven and overwhelming default behavior.
Put it this way, if you believe their crap about this, you probably got sucked into the Iraqi WMD BS as well. They lied about that, they lied about the Tonkin gulf attacks, both those lies lead to big huge wars, you think they WOULDN'T lie about something lesser than that, to get their civilian disarmament agendas pushed through?
Anyone in on something that bad knows they are dead if they squeal. Even inside some "witness protection program". You won't get many squealers with such a policy.
Tell me, what has been the outcome of that latest Baxter "accident" where LIVE avian flu virus got put into vaccines? Down the memory hole? You think that doesn't take serious juice to get something like that spiked and off the main stream media radar?
The big old nazi pharmcos are as bad as the war profits industries. There's no money in healthy people, or in cures, only in ever increasing diseases and "treatments".
As a retirement hobby he plays with viruses. Even so he creates one of the most well known pharmaceuticals by just using bird shit as ingredient. For lack of a challenge he then creates a virus which is able to mutate eight times faster than the best natural virus. And now he is the leading expert at solving the challenge he himself has set.
Okay, your argument seems to be as follows:
1) Some people say that no one would commit murder for $100M.
2) But some people would indeed commit murder for $100M.
3) Therefore the theory that the swine flu was human-created is logical.
The problem with this syllogism is that ... the theory has a lot more holes than just the straw man of "no one would commit murder for $100M". To start with, who's paying the $100M?? And for what?? I could see, if you're a completely unethical government, how you might be willing to pay $100M for a great war weapon. But the flu isn't a great war weapon because it's too unpredictable; you could release it over the other side of the globe tomorrow, and within a week you'd probably start seeing the first cases showing up in your own nation. So who'd pay $100M for "a weak little flu" to be unleashed on, essentially, a random selection of humanity?
Sorry, you don't have to have faith in mankind's morality to find your theory sketchy; you just have to ask "Who benefits?" and listen to the resounding silence.
That's why pedophile rings consisting of hundreds of men, and sometimes women are so easy to catch, cause no one can keep a secret right? That's why the rampant sexual abuse of children came out decades ago right, because no one could keep a secret right? Thousands of families for years kept their mouths shut and so did the victims out of fear.
The church abused thousands of boys and girls, but for decades it was kept a secret, these men moved from one location to another.
Yep guess you are right, people can't keep secrets. They keep secrets now the same they did them, to protect the system, and they consistently sacrifice the innocent to do so.
When the secrets do seem about to come out, follow the trail of blood and death. That's the other reason secrets don't come out. Oh he was just about to testify, weird how the threw himself out that window, etc. Secrets stay buried for a reason.
That was beautiful. Both ends of the scale are bad, but to not question in my mind is worst. The real truth is, they would rather let the system abuse them than believe anything bad about it, because then they would have to confront the truth, that the system might not wish them well, and might be willing to do them evil.
There is a doctor right now that is openly trying to clone human babies, and he is bragging about it, but think how many others are doing the same in secret.
I was prescribed Seroquel and took it on and off for a year and a half. It's actually classified as an atypical antipsychotic but is often used as an antidepressant and even a sleep aid.
They advise you to take it right before you go to sleep, but it gives you the munchies right before you crash. That explains the weight gain and diabetes. Dosages range from 25 mg to as much as 900 mg (200mg+ would make you a drooling vegetable).
I was prescribed higher and higher dosages until I topped out at 400 mg but ended up titrating my own dosages and eventually weaning myself off of the shit altogether after I decided I didn't like the sensation of my body shutting down on me. It's much more frightening than simply becoming tired and going to sleep. Higher dosages can also cause acute emotional symptoms which are as bad(if not worse) than using no medication at all.
Now I have mild tardive dyskenesia in the form of brief, highly-localized twitches that nobody notices. They feel like something is crawling around in my torso or head/neck.
Anyway, big pharma's solutions are temporary solutions. Why demonize the drug cartels while we have corporate-sponsored lifelong drug addiction with stuff like Vikes, OxyContins, and Xanax (by the way, acute Xanax withdrawals can kill you. Not even heroin withdrawal can do that!)?
Exhibit A:
Christianity
Islam
Judaism
Hinduism
Buddhism
Hard Atheism
Are we that much more advanced than people who subscribed to Zoroastrianism or who believed in Thor and Loki? So >90% of people being confused is not without precedent.
Republicans/Democrats, rinse and repeat.
Billy Brown rides on. Yolanda Green bypasses Gary White.
Ever try Google? Search: "corruption pharmaceuticals industry"
This is a billion dollar industry whose only interest is to push as many drugs on us a possible for profit. They have no intention, or financial incentive, to cure anyone, but to treat symptoms and keep us sick and still "needing" their drug relief. They suppress alternative therapies that they can't market and in some cases go out of their way to make us sicker so that we spend more on drugs.
This information is easy to find on the net. Not just as "conspiracy theories", but as documented cases of corruption that make their intentions so obvious that you don't even really need a theory to understand what's happening.
Of course, if you watch allot of television, then it will seem that drugs are a necessary part of health and that these drug companies a great benefit to mankind
Remember: A patient cured is a customer lost
get over you're "logical fallacy". it's not about that. What he means is that once you have an insight about the nature of the industry, it becomes allot easier to believe that this was engineered. No, it doesn't prove it, but what people on the other side are doing is saying "gee, man made? that's so UN-believable that it can't be true." There's a logical fallacy to consider.
The difference between the two sides is that one side has experienced or read allot about the evils of the industry and the other hasn't. Consider the perspectives of each when they hear about the swine flu being man made.
I think the GP expressed this more elegantly, but I just had to spell it out.
"There is absolutely no evidence to support any of these theories." [citation needed]
Have you looked for any? You might be surprised.
Go ahead, believe the liars, your call. Me, lie to me once, maybe I'll miss it, part of life, shit happens. Lie to me hundreds of times like has been proven with government on many issues, (and I gave you two verified HUGE examples of lies as just a general reference, spoken by many government spokestards, lies that have cost millions of lives and made obscene war profits for the liars and their wallstreet drinking buddies), and you know what? I ain't gonna believe you. And anyone who might believe chronic serial liars is, like I said, naive.
Where the train goes off the rails is where a conspiracy theory requires that massive numbers of people are keeping their mouths shut about some grand plan that they're a small part of. That can be done for a short time, but eventually every secret that has more than about 3 people in on it comes out.
This is exactly the attitude that stops conspiracy theories from "getting out". People subconsciously use this argument to dismiss a theory, when told. The reason the the theory doesn't get out is that no one believes it when they are told. Evey time I try to tell people that the sodium fluoride (rat poison) in our water supply is NOT good for us, they think I'm a conspiracy nut. Even though there is overwhelming evidence for this on the internet.
So no, people aren't "keeping their mouth shut". It's just that no one believes them. People believe the television instead.
It's far more likely the government created the virus for purposes of population control (look it up if you don't know) than the pharmaceutical industry. Although it could be an agenda of selling vaccines.
Many accusations of "conspiracy nuttery" are married with the accusation of "no evidence". Sometimes, however, what the accuser fails to recognise is that the "theorist" is not actually a nut; there is evidence! The accuser is simply unaware of it. You need evidence for your theory of non-evidence, hypocrite.
Now you have evoked a straw man by your presumption of motive. Maybe there are other reasons to create a virus ...? Do you know about the population reduction agenda?
it's a case of: "you can't handle the truth!". People find it easier to deny conspiracy theories than to turn their world upside down. This is why some CT-ists use the phrase: "wake up!".
The thing is, you really don't need a lot of people for a biotech drug conspiracy. Most of the prime movers are phds and so there's not that many to begin with. Everyone else below the chain can be manipulated to some degree.
I was a programmer for a class action lawsuit where the scientists stuffed the placebo group with dying people, and actually one dead person, in order to gin up the efficacy of their drug. They published their findings and got the stock to their little biotech company to go through the roof, and it all came crashing down when the FDA told the scientists, and the rest of the world, that their application was basically b.s. Of course, the scientists had sold -their- stock beforehand, so they got rich.
But, to do so, they had:
a) misrepresented the drug's efficacy to actual patients.
b) lied to thousands of investors.
And you know, THEY GOT AWAY WITH IT. Yeah, they had to settle for a mountain of money, but they had already got a bigger mountain of money.
This is my sig.
If I was a drug lord, why would I even bother with a pricey American made AR-15 style semi-auto, when I can get a cheaper military surplus AK-74 with a full auto switch, and some RPGs...
This is my sig.
Yep it was so secret it was painted blue so that it would blend in with the sky.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Crazy: Person who has a view that contradicts your own.
D-Day was far from quiet - in fact, during the war counter-intel had it's own codename: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fortitude
The Manhattan Project itself owes part of it's science to a leak of sorts. (Bohr learned of a successful uranium fission experiment that had been conducted in Germany in 1938, before he came to the USA - right around the time Einstein sent a letter to Roosevelt speculating that the Nazis were developing atomic technology). Bohr was a physisist at Los Alamos, working under the name "Nicholas Baker". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niels_Bohr
And, finally... Coke's Recepie: http://sparror.cubecinema.com/cube/cola/chemistry/cola2.htm
Now, where's your tinfoil hat? You had better put it on...
http://www.bistolas.net
... then why was it released on a hog farm in Mexico. It sounds pretty intentional to me...
D-day was kept quiet
D-Day was NOT kept quiet. My grandfther was working for the Abwehr. The knew the plang for a long time, and the exact start of the invasion at least 48 hours in advance. Fortunately, Hitler and some generals belived the fake information pointing to a invasion in Port du Calais.
The 9/11 Hijackers managed to keep their plans to themselves.
Now, are you talking about the Republican-Corporate oligarchy that ordered the hit, the Jews that financed it, or the Muslims that carried it out? God damn conspiracies!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YU8XnROqhU&feature=related
...but, how about directing some of that talent to expose the truth about Mexico?
http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2009/05/05/index.php?section=politica&article=008n1pol
The first case of swine flu was in La Gloria, close to Granjas Carroll (Carroll Farms, swines), owned 50 % by Smithfield Foods Inc., expelled from Virgina, USA due to contaminating the environment.
For years people in the area have suffered much higher levels of pulmonary diseases, all caused by contamination from the farms. Protest have been met with arrest and prosecution of the leaders.
Our fraudulent president Felipe Calderon is just an employee of the transnational companies, and under the excuse of reducing government expenses, has been reducing expenses in public health. We really need a Mexican Michael Moore documenting our health system. Mr. del Toro, your movies are very fun to watch
There's lots of people fighting to change the country, don't believe the propaganda from your government against these social fighters, we're only fighting for things you've already had at least a century ago, the same way Chavez is fighting to have in Venezuela what Mexico, Costa Rica, Chile, etc have had for the last 50 years.
Quotation marks...
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
The first time, I'd ask you what the hell you were doing.
The second time, I'd warn you to stop hitting me.
The third time, if I was still standing, I'd probably do you some serious damage to save myself.
How do we do some serious damage to a multi-national pharmaceutical company?
Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
A March 2009 policy brief by the United Nations Population Division reveals that the long-term plan for worldwide population reduction is not going fast enough, not by a long shot. Under the desperate headline âWhat would it take to accelerate fertility decline in the least developed countries?â(TM) the policy brief gives an overview of the progress made by developing countries in regards to the globalists set goal of reducing population and proposes several ways of speeding up the death. Richly draped with graphic illustrations on the state of global population and the progress made by the UN to bring back fertility to âacceptableâ(TM) levels, the policy brief advises an increased effort on the part of governments to commit to a strict family planning- policy and other measures designed to bring a halt to life.
âThe persistence of high fertility in the majority of the least developed countries and the slow fertility reductions observed among them are associated with high levels of unmet need for family planning.(â¦) The reduction of fertility could be accelerated if effective measures were taken to satisfy the existing unmet need for family planning.â(TM)
After these recommendations, the authors plunge into a long, wailing lament about the slow progress of the desired reducing of the population. They also point the finger to a lack of commitment of the governments concerned and, as expected, the need for a global intervention in order to avoid certain destruction.
This recent policy brief was just one update out of many in regards to the long-term plan by the elite to significantly bring down the numbers of the existing earth population. From the moment the Rockefeller funded âfamily planningâ(TM)-machine was widely kicked off in the 1960s and 70s, numerous meetings have been held in the last couple of decades where various strategies were discussed to implement population-reduction on as large a scale as possible. The strategies in question were especially directed towards the third world as the globalists had virtual carte blanche in the impoverished developing countries. The famous 1994 population conference in Cairo outlined some of the proposed strategies to be implemented. Then Secretary-General of the UN, Boutros Boutros-Ghali in his opening statement on the International Conference on Population and Development, stated that:
âI am not exaggerating when I say that not only does the future of the human society depend on this Conference but also the efficacy of the economic order of the planet on which we live.â(TM)
During a follow-up-meeting held in New York on December 1994, the United Nationsâ(TM) participants came up with some practical solutions to the âpopulation problemâ(TM) - one of which is the integration of population issues with matters of âenvironmentâ(TM) and âhuman development.â(TM) Another part of the agenda of pressing people to cut down on the number of children was to combine the issue of family-planning with environmental issues:
âSeveral priority areas were identified that needed immediate action by the participants. These included creation of awareness of the interrelationships between environment, population and development; advocacy; education; training; population management; gender concerns; monitoring and evaluation; and information dissemination and networking.â(TM)
Under the headline: âYouth NGOs Agree to Integrate Environment and Population Issues in their Activitiesâ(TM) were mentioned the following activities to brainwash young NGOâ(TM)s into the right mindset by, again, mixing in environmental issues with population issues:
âTo cooperatively address development problems from the youth perspective, which will ensure their maximum participation, a Working Group of the Regional Consultation of Youth NGOs in Asia and the Pacific was organized in 1994 to mobilize a network of youth NGOs in the region. Among the cur
Is it a human error to kiss a pig ?
In fact your pretty much saying that state secrets, NDAs, sworn oaths and trade secrets don't exist. Yet reality shows that they clearly do.
Never trust reality shows!!!
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
You know there's two things I've learned in my nearly 30 years on this earth.
GET OFF MY LAWN!!!
Unfortunately that's 3 words, and you say you've only learnt 2 things. Damn slow kids!
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
> how about some fucking proof?
I said it wouldn't be surprising. the fucking proof you require isnt relevant to my post, and it would require a particularly idiot guy getting filmed while he opens a vial.
---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol