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Wolfram|Alpha's Surprising Terms of Service

eldavojohn notes that Groklaw is highlighting the unexpected Wolfram|Alpha ToS — unexpected, that is, for those of us accustomed to Google's "just don't use it to break the law, please" terms. Nothing wrong with Wolfram setting any terms they like, of course. Just be aware. "We've seen people comparing Wolfram's Alpha to Google's Search from a technical standpoint but Groklaw outlined the legal differences in a post yesterday. Wolfram|Alpha's terms of use are completely different in that it is not a search engine; it's a computational service. The legalese says that they claim copyright on the each results page and require attribution. So for you academics out there, be careful. Groklaw notes this is interesting considering some of its results quote 2001: A Space Odyssey or Douglas Adams. Claiming copyright on that material may be a bold move. There's more: if you build a service that uses their service or deep-links to it, you may be facilitating your users to break their terms of use, and you may be held liable."

303 comments

  1. Wolfram|Alpha just killed their business by Dan667 · · Score: 0

    Hope they are not expecting to make any money by selling out their Customers at the drop of a hat.

    1. Re:Wolfram|Alpha just killed their business by ScentCone · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Hope they are not expecting to make any money by selling out their Customers at the drop of a hat.

      How are people who show up to use a free service "customers?" Google's customers, for example, are their advertisers, not the people who use the free stuff.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    2. Re:Wolfram|Alpha just killed their business by Jurily · · Score: 1

      How are people who show up to use a free service "customers?"

      They're the product, not customers.

    3. Re:Wolfram|Alpha just killed their business by moderatorrater · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How are people who show up to use a free service "customers?" Google's customers, for example, are their advertisers, not the people who use the free stuff.

      They can both be considered customers. I'm Google's customer because I give them money; not directly, but through their advertising. Of course, that depends on the definition that you use for customer, but I'm giving Google something they want (pageviews and advertisement clicks) in exchange for them giving me something that I want (good search results). If we're not their customer, then we're very close. If I go to another site for my searches, then Google loses money.

    4. Re:Wolfram|Alpha just killed their business by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      A pedantic point really - their business is still dead if no one turns up to use it, for free or not.

    5. Re:Wolfram|Alpha just killed their business by jebrew · · Score: 1

      still, it's a bad idea to mess up your product...tends to piss off the customers.

    6. Re:Wolfram|Alpha just killed their business by droopycom · · Score: 1

      I'm Google's customer because I give them money; not directly, but through their advertising. Of course, that depends on the definition that you use for customer,[...]

      Rather, it depends which definition you use for "giving money"...

    7. Re:Wolfram|Alpha just killed their business by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      How are people who show up to use a free service "customers?"

      Since apparently the business model here is to use Wolfram|Alpha as a teaser to sell a more advanced premium version of the service and to sell Mathematica licenses, it might be slightly more precise to label the users of the free "service" as "prospective customers" and the "service" itself as a marketing tool.

      Which, also, explains why you might want to be good to the people who show up to use it.

    8. Re:Wolfram|Alpha just killed their business by ZachPruckowski · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually, one could argue that making money is the entire point of this ToS. They provide the service for free, while putting restrictions on reusing the data so that you have to buy a license/subscription/whatever in order to use it in a professional setting. Otherwise, it'd be a completely free service.

    9. Re:Wolfram|Alpha just killed their business by Gerzel · · Score: 1

      They are customers, the price is just $0.00 for the initial use, other charges(including legal ones) may be accrued from there.

    10. Re:Wolfram|Alpha just killed their business by Gerzel · · Score: 1

      A better word than those of "customer" and "product" used to describe Google's/Wolfram's customers might be "Patrons."

    11. Re:Wolfram|Alpha just killed their business by Cheech+Wizard · · Score: 1

      How are people who show up to use a free service "customers?" Google's customers, for example, are their advertisers, not the people who use the free stuff.

      People use Google search as a free service. As such, they are Customers. Google has many types of customers for its different services. Search is only one of many 'products' Google offers. If Google's search product was not 'good', it would have few or no customers.

    12. Re:Wolfram|Alpha just killed their business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds more like we are employees than customers. We give them something they want and they give us something we want, an iIf we don't show up for work (searching) they lose money...

    13. Re:Wolfram|Alpha just killed their business by gbear711 · · Score: 1

      The users of a no cost to them service should be called consumers.

  2. Database Rights? by gilgongo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is a British company (god save the Queen!) - aren't they talking about database rights? If so, I think they're not enforceable outside the EU.

    --
    "And the meaning of words; when they cease to function; when will it start worrying you?"
    1. Re:Database Rights? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If so, I think they're not enforceable outside the EU.

      Duh. That's a brilliant observation.

      I'll never forget the CIO who told me (I was a consultant presenting a Help Desk application that we had been hired to implement and were about to deploy at his company) - "It doesn't look enough like Google. I want it to look like google - just one line that I type what I want into."

      Now, to me, google (or google's address bar) is a huge improvement on the Command Line. I bet the same guy wouldn't have wanted to return to the days when you had to guess what the command-line needed you to type, much like an Infocom adventure game.

      That's why Google is a huge improvement - it tries to figure out what YOU want. That's the reverse of a command-line, where you have to figure out what IT wants.

    2. Re:Database Rights? by Minter92 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Wolfram is located a few blocks from me in Champaign Illinois

    3. Re:Database Rights? by Fozzyuw · · Score: 4, Funny

      Wolfram is located a few blocks from me in Champaign Illinois

      Or just do what I did and "wolfram Alpha it"* (well, that doesn't quite have the same ring too it).

      * © 2009 Wolfram Alpha LLCâ"A Wolfram Research Company

      --
      "The past was erased, the erasure was forgotten, the lie became truth." ~1984 George Orwell
    4. Re:Database Rights? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Don't you mean "Wolf It"? (Like "devouring a book"/"wolfing down a meal", except with queries)...

    5. Re:Database Rights? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a British company (god save the Queen!)

      As an American employee of a British company I can assure you you can stop there. That explains anything and everything wrong with a company that doesn't have a rape-the-natives-and-steal-their-shit imperialist business model, which was the last thing a British company was actually good at. Hey maybe Wolfram just knows his limitations.

    6. Re:Database Rights? by Gerzel · · Score: 1

      The problem with figuring out what the command line wants is that the command line wants nothing, its just a machine with no desires doing as it is told.

      Also you still have to figure out what Google "wants" if you are looking for a specific item of information.

      Furthermore have you re-organized your filesystem, formatted a hard-drive, or done a multitude of tasks other than run a google search from the google command line.

      The command line has far more functionality and google can be incorporated into it.

    7. Re:Database Rights? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      * © 2009 Wolfram Alpha LLCâ

      Ooh, French.

    8. Re:Database Rights? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wolfit

    9. Re:Database Rights? by syousef · · Score: 1

      Wolfram is located a few blocks from me in Champaign Illinois

      My condolences. Perhaps if you manage to wait until he's out of town, you'd be able to find someone who doesn't know to sell your house to. If he's around he'll be sure to let them know who he is.

      Sadly, he's not even a new kind of blowhard.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    10. Re:Database Rights? by Hal_Porter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think Wolfram is a smart guy. The problem is that he probably has enough money now that he doesn't really have to listen to criticism. He works for his own company in which he is a majority shareholder so he can't get fired. His ideas (e.g. A new kind of science) are published by normal publishers, not peer reviewed journals. In every professional interaction in his life he's made sure he's in control, i.e. no one can tell him that he's talking out of his ass.

      The problem is that humans - especially smart ones - have an enormous capacity for self delusion. Back when he was a physicist the people he worked with, the peer reviewers of the journals he submitted papers to and the people he wrote grant application to would act to keep him relatively grounded. Now even if he wrote wild speculation or even complete nonsense he's rich and famous enough to find someone to publish it, and they'll probably sell enough copies to do it again. Even if they didn't he's probably set for life with the money he got from Mathematica.

      So he's free, but that sort of freedom is a very dangerous thing if you actually want to achieve anything intellectually.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    11. Re:Database Rights? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So far Alpha (let's drop the Wolfram) looks useless. It returns spotty, arbitrarily "selected" (computable), rarely relevant information, without citing the sources. Totally useless for serious research, or serious anything.

      Hopefully Wolfram Beta figures it out. Or we'll be laughing about Wolfram Omega far into the 21st Century.

    12. Re:Database Rights? by Raenex · · Score: 1

      His ideas (e.g. A new kind of science) are published by normal publishers

      It was self-published under his own company.

    13. Re:Database Rights? by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      Oh dear. That's even worse.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    14. Re:Database Rights? by svick · · Score: 1

      Wolfram is located a few blocks from me in Champaign Illinois

      Or just do what I did and "wolfram Alpha it"* (well, that doesn't quite have the same ring too it).

      * © 2009 Wolfram Alpha LLCâ"A Wolfram Research Company

      Have you noticed, what sources did they use it to "compute" the result? "Fifty Years of Barbie" made the greatest impression on me.

  3. Hah! by aero2600-5 · · Score: 1, Redundant

    The easy solution: Just use Google.

    Aero

    --
    Please stop hurting America -- Jon Stewart
    1. Re:Hah! by gnick · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'm not sure how revolutionary Wolfram Alpha really is. But, if you've tried it, you'll have discovered that it's not a google alternative - It's not even trying to be. It's a completely different tool. It's kind of fun to tinker with, but I haven't decided yet how useful it will be.

      And, just so that I can blatantly violate their TOS (which I've yet to read except for in TFS and I've not agreed to), here are the results for 2+2:

      Input:
      2+2
      Result:
      4
      Number name:
      four
      Visual representation:
      * * * *

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    2. Re:Hah! by cheftw · · Score: 2, Informative

      Come on man, you could at least feed it a useless and disgusting expression. That's its purpose ya?

      http://www94.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=zeta(sin(atan(x^i)))

      --
      Always back up, never back down. ---- Think you're cool 'cos your uid is prime? Take mine, modulo the one digit integers
    3. Re:Hah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google can't do my calculus homework for me.

    4. Re:Hah! by TinBromide · · Score: 1, Redundant

      I think that being a google alternative is like being an ipod killer, and we've all seen how successful companies have been in that endeavor. Good on them for not trying to play follow the leader or at least claim not to, I haven't actually USED the service or anything to tell if they are or are not imitating/trying to replace google.

      --
      Is it sad that I am more likely to recognize you and your posts by your sig than your name or UID?
    5. Re:Hah! by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Another cool thing, do a search for any website (here is slashdot for the click impaired). It comes up with an element hierarchy for the page. I'm not sure how useful it is, but it's pretty.

      --
      Qxe4
    6. Re:Hah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That will be really useful come final exam time, too!

    7. Re:Hah! by Boronx · · Score: 2, Informative

      It'll solve differential equations.

    8. Re:Hah! by bhagwad · · Score: 1

      That is cool!

    9. Re:Hah! by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It'll solve differential equations.

      Hell, my wife does that every day.

      I'm supposed to be impressed because the people who sell Mathematica have figured out how to solve a differential equation? Call me when Wolfram Alpha can solve Schanuel's conjecture. Then, I'll be impressed.

      I just asked Wolfram Alpha if every finitely presented periodic group was finite and it told me to go fuck myself.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    10. Re:Hah! by SL+Baur · · Score: 4, Funny

      Come on man, you could at least feed it a useless and disgusting expression.

      If you feed it "goatse" it says it doesn't know what to do with your input. That's a vast improvement over Google.

    11. Re:Hah! by Xest · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well it claims to make information computable. I accept it's not meant to find results like Google but the issue with it is it doesn't even seem to gather basic data in a computable form.

      I mean, you try things like "On what date did the Falklands war commence?", "How many species of Melocactus are there?", "On what date was Adolf Hitler born" and it outright fails.

      Okay, so I figured maybe I'm asking questions that are out of the intended realm of knowledge it supports and the assumption is that you'd never want to compute with this information. So I tried something Mathematical - I mean, that is Wolfram's speciality right?

      "How many non-isomorphic labelled trees are there with 4 vertices"

      Fail.

      I've tried a few other relevant, factual questions and it just falls flat over, not even able to try and answer them.

      I'm sure it does do a great job of making information computable, the problem is it's unable to gather the information in the first place.

      Ironically, Google, that doesn't claim to make information computable manage to provide answers for all these questions within it's first page, often as the first hit. Sure it may not be presented in a standardised format, but data that needs to be parsed is certainly more computable than data that simply can't be provided at all.

      I can see what Wolfram was trying to do, but why did he have to couple it with immense hype that it's as important as Google? Why has he been going on and on about it to the media when it struggles to even do what it's supposed to absolutely excel at? I think they could've at least saved face if they'd stopped being so cocky about it and released it with a little less hype and fanfair and let it improve and become more useful and hence more greatly adopted over time. One has to ask when there was so much hype about it and with a ToS like this whether it was all just about Wolfram gathering data for himself or something than providing a tool useful to everyone else. Either that or he simply beleives his own hype and believes the tool is better than it really is. Perhaps in developing and using it himself he was blinded in making and seeing it work well for applications specific to what he wanted without ever truly seeing how well it performs in other problem domains?

    12. Re:Hah! by omnichad · · Score: 2, Funny

      Don't forget to put ©Wolfram Alpha at the bottom of your exam.

    13. Re:Hah! by siddesu · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Man, you try too hard. I tried the simple "what time is it" and I got:

      "Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input.Tips for good results Â"

      Tips for good results: cut down the hype.

    14. Re:Hah! by linzeal · · Score: 1

      So will a freshman if you give him enough soda.

    15. Re:Hah! by sortius_nod · · Score: 1

      I'm glad I'm not the only person who thinks you can get better results from using a decent search engine and your own wits. To me this seems like a gimmick more than anything, thus why there is so much hype.

      Products that deliver quality generally stand on their own merits, not on a pile of hype.

    16. Re:Hah! by Inda · · Score: 1

      It tells me Glasgow is the third largest city in England.

      Great! That would be really handy to know, apart from the little fact that Glasgow is in Scotland. Still, never mind, thanks for playing.

      --
      This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
    17. Re:Hah! by Spaseboy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, after seeing this is I can understand their terms of service. You can't have a linear thought process to understand why they have the terms they do.

      They're trying to corner the market on the semantic web. It's not the results that are technically all that interesting, it's how you can use those results that makes it worth money.

      Google is for all intents and purposes a catalogue. It doesn't return any data (and as time has gone on returns fewer relevant search results).

      W/A is returning data about data. This is where the internet gets interesting and they are trying to say they own the results they give you, which is not true but they do own the right to keep you from using those results without paying them a royalty on their service if they choose. Lexis Nexis does the same thing, basically.

      --
      "I don't want more choice, I just want nicer things!"
      -Jennifer Saunders as Edina Monsoon
    18. Re:Hah! by Brett+Buck · · Score: 2, Interesting

      How many non-isomorphic labelled trees are there with 4 vertices"

      Fail.

      I've tried a few other relevant, factual questions and it just falls flat over, not even able to try and answer them.

      I'm sure it does do a great job of making information computable, the problem is it's unable to gather the information in the first place.

      Ironically, Google, that doesn't claim to make information computable manage to provide answers for all these questions within it's first page, often as the first hit. Sure it may not be presented in a standardised format, but data that needs to be parsed is certainly more computable than data that simply can't be provided at all.

      I can see what Wolfram was trying to do, but why did he have to couple it with immense hype that it's as important as Google? Why has he been going on and on about it to the media when it struggles to even do what it's supposed to absolutely excel at? I think they could've at least saved face if they'd stopped being so cocky about it and released it with a little less hype and fanfair and let it improve and become more useful and hence more greatly adopted over time.

                I also tried various approaches to things it *should* be good at, but once again, not very impressive. I first tried "transfer function zero order hold" and variations on that. I expected to get something like "(1-e^-st)/s" and some words or a derivation. Should be right up it's alley, but no, it just failed, no results at all. I typed in "(1-e^-st)/s" and got a series expansion of that, several graphs of debatable accuracy of value, but nothing like "this is the equation of a zero-order hold" or even a question about s, "do you mean s=jw" or anything like that. I don't need the series expansion and I certainly wouldn't trust Mathematica to do it if I did. I still have a pencil and paper. Maybe there's something I was doing wrong, but it didn't give me results I would have expected.

            On the topic of the immense hype, uh, duh, it's Wolfram, legend in his own mind and self-declared smartest man in the world. I am sure if he reads this his first reaction will be that "you guys are too stupid to grasp the brilliance, I am casting pearls before swine, I'm going to demonstrate the unified field theory with cellular automata". Insufferable even from his press releases - which I might add is common among quasi-geniuses. I have worked with some of the guys who *invented* most of the ideas behind satellite design, true geniuses whose names will never be widely known outside a few buildings at Lockheed Sunnyvale due to the nature of their work. One thing in common - the true geniuses are a lot like Feynman, personable, can explain and are willing to explain exactly why it works to anyone. The wannabe geniuses are like Wolfram seems to be - insufferably arrogant pains in the ass. Of course I only know Wolfram from his press releases, so I am making an unfair analogy or extrapolation from past experience, but I did read and understand, to the extent necessary, his book.

              Brett

    19. Re:Hah! by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Man, you try too hard. I tried the simple "what time is it" and I got:

      "Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input.Tips for good results Â"

      Tips for good results: cut down the hype.

      Its kind of funny that this is the kind of fact-based query that W|A was hyped at being good at that, according to the hypesters, Google couldn't do. I asked Google the same query a few seconds ago, and here is the top of its response (with the actual city redacted):

      4:49pm Tuesday (PDT) - Time in <redacted>, California
      Washington D.C. 7:49pm EDT Chicago 6:49pm CDT
      Denver 5:49pm MDT Phoenix 4:49pm MST
      Los Angeles 4:49pm PDT Anchorage 3:49pm AKDT
      Honolulu 1:49pm HST

    20. Re:Hah! by GreenCow · · Score: 3, Insightful

      For wolfram alpha to be successful they will need to develop their natural language parsing abilities, it's not easy to do, each question may require individual interpretation. At this point using google is better for understanding more abstract concepts.

      I've used wolfram alpha to help with my linear algebra homework for the past few days. Good info for checking my work. Matrix example

      The best part is using it on a phone, it's made my G1 a more powerful calculator than my good ol TI-92.

    21. Re:Hah! by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Google is for all intents and purposes a catalogue. It doesn't return any data

      Well, unless you use any one of the many kinds of queries for which it does return data (anything using its calculator features, GDP of a country, population of a country, what time is it, etc., etc., etc.) as well as catalog-style links, assuming by "data", you mean "a specific answer to the query other than list of potentially relevant links".

    22. Re:Hah! by B1oodAnge1 · · Score: 5, Funny

      More importantly, it completely fails at this question: http://www26.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=historical+popularity+trends+of+shaved+genitalia+in+pornography

      I was looking forward to the graph too :-\

      --
      RUGBYRUGBYRUGBY
    23. Re:Hah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      However the term "when did the Falklands war start" gives an answer. A problem seems to be the way input is provided. Try some variations on what you are after.

    24. Re:Hah! by schon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      do a search for any website (here is slashdot for the click impaired)

      Congratulations, but "deep linking", you've violated their terms of service.

      Hmm, I guess I did too.

      I wonder how they're gonna prosecute us, seeing as neither one of us was presented by so much as a "click-through" agreement.

      Maybe someone needs to tell them that just saying something doesn't make it so.

    25. Re:Hah! by Macthorpe · · Score: 4, Funny

      I've been to <redacted>. Used to be a great town, but now...

      --
      "It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him." - Tolkien
    26. Re:Hah! by Burpmaster · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well it claims to make information computable. I accept it's not meant to find results like Google but the issue with it is it doesn't even seem to gather basic data in a computable form.

      I mean, you try things like "On what date did the Falklands war commence?", "How many species of Melocactus are there?", "On what date was Adolf Hitler born" and it outright fails.

      It has the data for two of those questions. It's just having trouble with the (somewhat odd and verbose) way that you asked them.

      When did the Falklands war begin?

      When was Hitler born?

      It doesn't seem to know what to do with "on what date." That phrasing requires an understanding of the preposition 'on' in the abstract sense (instead of the 'physically on top of' sense) and knowledge that the phrase "what X" is meant to constrain the answer to the type X without otherwise modifying the question. Or specific knowledge that asking "what date" is the same as asking when.

      Without understanding "what X" form it may have processed Hitler's birth into a date, then interpreted your question as "what date was the following date" (asking for the date of the date) instead of "what was the following date" (asking for the date directly). For example, it understands "what was January 1" and "when was January 1" but not "what date was January 1".

      Also, it didn't understand the word "commence" as referring to the start of a war.

      Okay, so I figured maybe I'm asking questions that are out of the intended realm of knowledge it supports and the assumption is that you'd never want to compute with this information. So I tried something Mathematical - I mean, that is Wolfram's speciality right?

      "How many non-isomorphic labelled trees are there with 4 vertices"

      Fail.

      I've tried a few other relevant, factual questions and it just falls flat over, not even able to try and answer them.

      I'm sure it does do a great job of making information computable, the problem is it's unable to gather the information in the first place.

      It doesn't seem to know about trees or labels, but it knows about graphs:

      How many graphs with four vertices are there?

      It also won't do exhaustive searches through entire categories of knowledge to compute a result. It has to know how to figure it out directly. I think its main limitation is its intelligence, not how much data it has.

    27. Re:Hah! by againjj · · Score: 1

      I just tried it with something I was trying to get out of Google: an ordered list of large California banks.

      I started with "largest banks in california", and was told "Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input." It also gave me some "Related inputs to try" which included "banks in california", so I tried that.

      Of course, I was told "Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input." So, I tried "list of the largest banks in california", which gave nothing, followed by "list california banks", which offered a possibility of "california banks", among others.

      Trying that got me something! First it told me "Input interpretation: pacific regional banks" and gave me an alphabetical list, which was not terribly useful for my purposes. I then tried "large california banks", and was told "Input interpretation: largest pacific regional banks" and given actual ordered lists of banks, each list comprising a different method of ranking, each entry paired with the ranked value. Very nice.

      Only when I got this far did I notice that they were not all California banks. Quite a number of them were not even US banks. That is when I realized "pacific regional" really meant any bank in the pacific region. And further inspection revealed that while Westamerica bank was listed (number 7 in California, according to their site), Wells Fargo (a much larger bank also in California) was not. So even if WA understands your query, and even if it looks for what you asked it to, it isn't accurate.

    28. Re:Hah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Damned Hollywood editors ...

    29. Re:Hah! by LeonPierre · · Score: 1
      --
      "If it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet"
    30. Re:Hah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I tried this on Wolfram|Alpha with the queries slightly changed ...

      "Falklands war date" gives the dates April 2 - June 14, 1982.

      "Adolph Hitler's birthday" gives April 20, 1889. Even corrected my misspelling of Adolph to Adolf.

      "Melocactus" failed, but "cactus" only goes down as specific as family, gives 32 families of cactus. Can't give an answer if the data isn't processed, I guess.

      The tree thing i think you could enter as a Mathematica formula, though I have no idea how given my cursory web-search of the subject.

      Given how much hardware power Google has to throw at your search compared to Wolfram|Alpha, the task to "enter a natural language query, have the program interpret the query correctly, and give you the exact data you want back" would work more often on Google than Wolfram|Alpha considering the nuances of language. For example, putting "adolf hitler d.o.b" works for Hitler's date of birth on Wolfram|Alpha, but "adolf hitler b-day" does not. Both do work on Google.

      This in no way invalidates your criticism about the unavailability of information on certain topics and the lack of natural-language processing, which are fully valid, and I hope are being worked on.

    31. Re:Hah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Query: faggots in a butt Result: 18 faggots http://www55.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=faggots+in+a+butt Top google result is WOLFRAM ALPHA!!

    32. Re:Hah! by syousef · · Score: 1

      In contrast, if you enter 2 + 2 into Google you get:

      2 + 2 = 4

      Much less verbose and to the point.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    33. Re:Hah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why should anyone try just typing "time"?

      WA touts itself as a service that gives "definitive answers to factual queries". "What time is it" is a factual query. "time" is not a query, and can be interpreted in many ways, most of them not factual.

      That is, currently WA is a web page full of FAIL, the ToC being not the biggest.

    34. Re:Hah! by xtracto · · Score: 1

      bah,
      no torrent
      warez
      keygens..

      useless!

      --
      Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
    35. Re:Hah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Man, you try too hard. I tried the simple "what time is it" and I got:

      "Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input.Tips for good results Â"

      Tips for good results: cut down the hype.

      As with Google, you have to learn to speak its language. Try 'Hitler birth date', or just 'Hitler'. For the current time, enter 'now'. Or for more information, e.g. 'time in ouagadougou'.

    36. Re:Hah! by x78 · · Score: 1

      but I haven't decided yet how useful it will be.

      I'm finding it's good for speeding up little things, like conversions, and exact values I might like.
      Yesterday on /. the "Obama needing cars to get 42 MPG" article for example, I just threw "42 MPG" into WA and it gave me it in British MPG :)
      That's the first it's been handy for me, if I remember to use it for things like that I can see it being quite the time saver!

      --
      Don't panic
    37. Re:Hah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wolfram = Glorified calculator and calculus homework helper

    38. Re:Hah! by dzfoo · · Score: 1

      Except that the "Semantic Web" implies natural language access to the World Wide Web; while Wolfram|Alpha does no such thing. It curates all data from known resources, many of which are decidedly not on the web, and provides a web interface to its computational engine.

                -dZ.

      --
      Carol vs. Ghost
      ...Can you save Christmas?
    39. Re:Hah! by dotancohen · · Score: 1

      Wow, you sure asked the wrong question:
      http://www26.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=What+is+the+airspeed+velocity+of+an+unladen+swallow%3F

      Of course, I should have anticipated the result:
      there is unfortunately insufficient data to estimate the velocity of an African swallow (even if you specified which of the 47 species of swallow found in Africa you meant)

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    40. Re:Hah! by llManDrakell · · Score: 1

      It's kind of fun to tinker with, but I haven't decided yet how useful it will be.

      Exactly..I keep asking it how to reverse entropy and all it keeps telling me is: "insufficient data for a meaningful answer".

    41. Re:Hah! by Random_Goblin · · Score: 1

      Now look, no one is to stone anyone until I blow this whistle. *Even*...and I want to make this absolutely clear...*even* if they *do* hot link wolfram|alpha

    42. Re:Hah! by 2short · · Score: 1

      "As with Google, you have to learn to speak its language. Try 'Hitler birth date', or just 'Hitler'. For the current time, enter 'now'. Or for more information, e.g. 'time in ouagadougou'."

      NOT "as with Google". Put any of the original posters questions into Google as he wrote them, and you get the answer. Put them in in any reasonable fashion, and you get the answer.

    43. Re:Hah! by cmpalmer · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, you can ask W|Q:

      Phase of the moon on the day Elvis was born

      and it will show and tell you (waxing crescent). Google would only do that if someone had written that down on a page somewhere with sufficient page rank to show up higher than semi-random occurrences of all of the words.

      Of course, there is a simple answer to the Google vs. W|A controversy (and one that Wolfram should agree to) - license Google to provide a prominent link to W|A for search phrases that look like they might be appropriately solved by it.

      --
      -- stream of did I lock the front door consciousness
    44. Re:Hah! by cmpalmer · · Score: 1

      I like Wolfram|Alpha's capabilities much better when I'm not fighting their "natural language" parsing. The simplest way to get "What time is it?" on W|A isn't to type that question, just do:

      now

      More impressively, Wolfram|Alpha can do this:

      airspeed of an unladen European swallow in furlongs per fortnight

      Google also provides top-ranked sites where this is calculated, but W|A gives a definite answer along with assumptions.

      --
      -- stream of did I lock the front door consciousness
    45. Re:Hah! by Uncle+Rummy · · Score: 1

      airspeed of an unladen European swallow in furlongs per fortnight

      Google also provides top-ranked sites where this is calculated, but W|A gives a definite answer along with assumptions.

      However, changing the query to "airspeed of an unladen African swallow in furlongs per fortnight" returns this:

      Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input.

      ...but removing the unit conversion from the query:"airspeed of an unladen African swallow" returns this:

      there is unfortunately insufficient data to estimate the velocity of an African swallow (even if you specified which of the 47 species of swallow found in Africa you meant)

      Hmmmm...

    46. Re:Hah! by B1oodAnge1 · · Score: 1

      bahaha, nice :-)

      although it does reference monty python there, so maybe it has potential after all...

      --
      RUGBYRUGBYRUGBY
  4. This just seals the deal. by CppDeveloper · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Gave wolfram alpha a spin today and found it extremely uninspiring. Given these ToS I doubt I will ever go back.

    1. Re:This just seals the deal. by EdZ · · Score: 1, Interesting

      It seems half finished. If I look up the catalogue number of an exoplanet, for example, it'll read me off it's orbital parameters. If I then try and ask what 'longitude of periapsis' means, it'll shrug it's shoulders and return absolutely nothing.

    2. Re:This just seals the deal. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      It seems to me that the only thing I could use Wolfram Alpha for is as a web frontend to Mathematica frontend that doesn't require me to fire up Mathematica just to integrate something real quick.

      (I know, I know, I know, integrals.wolfram.com exists, but it doesn't do anything but integration and also doesn't let you specify integration limits.)

    3. Re:This just seals the deal. by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I just tried a search for my hometown, Hickman, CA. It came up with a link to Hickman, Kentucky, and suggested I use Hickman Nebraska instead. Who wants Nebraska? Then I saw a link that just said "Hickman." I tried it, and it came up with a demographic breakdown, that didn't quite seem to match any place I've lived. Then I realized it was giving me the demographic breakdown for those with the last name of Hickman. Interesting, but not what I was looking for.

      In fact, that's how I would characterize the entire system: interesting, but not what I was looking for.

      Finally, I tried Hickman, CA again, and realized it had recognized California, but instead was comparing the location of Hickman Kentucky with California. So I now know how the lowest point in California compares to the lowest point of Hickman Kentucky. Except it didn't actually list the lowest point for Hickman Kentucky.

      Then, a search for "Angelina Jolie nude" resulted in Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input. Hmmmmm.

      --
      Qxe4
    4. Re:This just seals the deal. by Onyma · · Score: 4, Informative

      That's because that's not its purpose since it's not a search engine. That's like asking your calculator for the definition of the word 'derivative'.

      --
      Play me online? Well you know that I'll beat you. If I ever meet you I'll "/sbin/shutdown -h now" you. -Weird Al, kinda.
    5. Re:This just seals the deal. by eln · · Score: 1

      Then, a search for "Angelina Jolie nude" resulted in Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input. Hmmmmm.

      Wolfram|Alpha is a Slashdotter??

    6. Re:This just seals the deal. by Pentagram · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I just tried comparing "Wales" and "Scotland" in WA. Instead of the countries, I got information about two cities. Hmm. Then again, comparing "Welsh" and "Scottish" returned some genuinely interesting information about the two languages.

      Comparing "Badger" and "Giraffe" returns some interesting comparisons.

      Comparing "Java" and "Lisp" returns nothing.

      I agree: an interesting toy, but not terribly useful at present. I'll keep an eye on it though.

    7. Re:This just seals the deal. by EdZ · · Score: 1

      My calculator cannot give the information on extrasolar planets. A search engine does. Either scrape all useful information, or don't bother scrape it at all.

    8. Re:This just seals the deal. by oldhack · · Score: 1, Funny

      "Then, a search for "Angelina Jolie nude" resulted in Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input. Hmmmmm."

      Useless crap.

      --
      Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
    9. Re:This just seals the deal. by moderatorrater · · Score: 1

      But then you search for "SAT score" and get back distribution information about SAT scores. Search for "GRE score" or "ACT score" and it returns nothing. While neither of those tests are as big as the SAT, they're certainly big enough that you'd expect to get something back. Half finished is about right to describe my experience. Extremely useful for some topics (my hometown, for instance) but not so much for others (my wife's maiden name, for example).

    10. Re:This just seals the deal. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess it's not just Jeeves that's gay.

    11. Re:This just seals the deal. by Onyma · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The design of the system is that it intelligently scrapes quantifiable information that can be put into a defined knowledge base structure and inter-related. Length, weight, oribital period, age, population, molecular weight, wavelength, numeric series, calories... values that are measured in units or physical properties of the world around us. By fitting this information into a defined structure the system has the ability to now extrapolate from it to answer questions... hence the words 'computational engine'.

      Why build another text search "library index"? It's been done out the ying-yang. This system is orders of magnitude more ambitious and complex and while still in it's infancy, it's a pretty spectacular achievement already IMO. Just allow yourself to think outside of the 'search engine' box. While it contains some facts about the world, it's not a search engine.

      --
      Play me online? Well you know that I'll beat you. If I ever meet you I'll "/sbin/shutdown -h now" you. -Weird Al, kinda.
    12. Re:This just seals the deal. by Evil+Pete · · Score: 1

      First query I tried was: brisbane weather. Because it is raining here. Very interesting results. Extremely cool.

      However more mundane googly kind of searches resulted in nothing.

      Conclusion: potentially very interesting indeed, but it will take my mind a little while to think of this as not a search engine but a data 'probing' or analysis engine ... I can't think of an appropriate term for it at the moment. Perhaps it could be regarded as a processing frontend to lots of statistical and numeric data ... like Google Trends but more so. We shall see.

      --
      Bitter and proud of it.
    13. Re:This just seals the deal. by Evil+Pete · · Score: 1

      Just as a postscript. I just tried "planet positions" ... and it gave me a skychart showing the positions of planets at this time. So I thought, "wait a second, this is latitude, longitude dependent, does it know where I am?" And looking at the chart it shows my town ... or did it extract that from my previous query on the weather. Looks like we may have a learning machine here for each user ... hmmm.

      --
      Bitter and proud of it.
    14. Re:This just seals the deal. by EdZ · · Score: 1

      "placing data in a defined structure" is all well and good, but surely a part of that should be actually defining said structure. As it stands, it resembles a remotely hosted version of matlab with some pre-set variables scraped from other sites/sources. Nifty, but definitely needs some context added to the information before being usable to anyone who doesn't already know what it is they're trying to compute (and probably already has a copy of matlab/mathematica/octave/scilab/etc sitting in front of them anyway).

    15. Re:This just seals the deal. by Onyma · · Score: 1

      I would agree with that... primarily because it's still in its infancy. This is essentially web enabled mat-lab however as it's gathering and interrelating its data real time off the web the potential is huge. As it becomes more refined (which admittedly is going to be a long process) the combined pool of 'query-able' data could become quite impressive, as could the number of things you can do with it.

      I think it was released to the public at the right time. I am sure the system is actively compiling a cross-section of what is being asked to expand the development and range of information. I would hope to see its abilities snowball from here... key word "hope" :)

      --
      Play me online? Well you know that I'll beat you. If I ever meet you I'll "/sbin/shutdown -h now" you. -Weird Al, kinda.
    16. Re:This just seals the deal. by Man+On+Pink+Corner · · Score: 1

      "The design of the system is that it intelligently scrapes quantifiable information that can be put into a defined knowledge base structure and inter-related."

      As a potential user, I have no clue what that means. Ergo, they fail.

    17. Re:This just seals the deal. by Onyma · · Score: 1

      I would propose that if you don't know what that means then you aren't a potential user ;)

      --
      Play me online? Well you know that I'll beat you. If I ever meet you I'll "/sbin/shutdown -h now" you. -Weird Al, kinda.
    18. Re:This just seals the deal. by IAmGarethAdams · · Score: 1

      - A search engine gives information on extrasolar planets.
      - Wolfram Alpha gives information on extrasolar planets.
      - Therefore Wolfram Alpha is a search engine

      - A motorbike transports me along a road
      - A car transports me along a road
      - Therefore a car is a motorbike

    19. Re:This just seals the deal. by gordyf · · Score: 1

      Nothing quite so exciting, it just tries to figure out your location from your IP address:

      http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=where+am+i

    20. Re:This just seals the deal. by SBrach · · Score: 1

      Connect to a proxy in Russia and tell me how that works out for you.

    21. Re:This just seals the deal. by Khashishi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, this is the Integrator on steroids. It'll be great for anyone who doesn't have Mathematica or needs to use Mathematica on the go, like on a phone.

      It certainly blows Google calculator away.

    22. Re:This just seals the deal. by bretticus · · Score: 1

      Where are you?

      "I live on the Internet."

      I guess they have a little bit of humor :)

      http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=where+are+you

    23. Re:This just seals the deal. by Literaryhero · · Score: 1

      Or, even better, you can search for 'SAT score' and get back the distribution information. However, if you search for 'sat score' you get nothing.

    24. Re:This just seals the deal. by Literaryhero · · Score: 1

      Or, even better, you can search for 'SAT score' and get back the distribution information. However, if you search for 'sat score' you get nothing.

      Ugh, make that 'SAT scores' and 'sat scores', respectively. If you search for 'sat score', you get back information about a satellite.

    25. Re:This just seals the deal. by Man+On+Pink+Corner · · Score: 1

      Oh, I know what it means, all right -- it means that whether or not Alpha addresses my problem domain is a matter of opinion. That's a real drawback, because my opinion is not always going to dovetail with Wolfram's.

      I spent a couple of hours playing with it on launch night. It's nifty, but the parser is rather Infocom-esque. If you don't happen to stumble over just the right phrasing, you get no love. It's optimized for their example queries but you can't go too far off those specific paths. Traditional search engines seem much better at inferring the user's intent.

    26. Re:This just seals the deal. by zwei2stein · · Score: 1
      --
      -- Technology for the sake of technology is as pathetic as eschewing technology because it's technology.
    27. Re:This just seals the deal. by EvilIdler · · Score: 1

      Yep, uninspiring. I tried the phrase "best place to get hookers", and it said it wasn't sure what to do with my input. Fail!

    28. Re:This just seals the deal. by dzfoo · · Score: 1

      You (and others) keep comparing it with "traditional search engines"; it is not.

                -dZ.

      --
      Carol vs. Ghost
      ...Can you save Christmas?
    29. Re:This just seals the deal. by Man+On+Pink+Corner · · Score: 1

      <shrug> If you design your user interface to mimic a traditional search engine, don't act all butthurt when users anticipate traditional search functionality.

  5. That's pretty standard by hedwards · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They aren't claiming ownership of the bits of data they provide, they're claiming copyright over the whole page. Sort of like how an encyclopedia will copyright the book even if it includes quotes from people. Basically over the presentation of the data.

    Additionally much of what they would be claiming copyright over isn't subject to copyright protections. Things such as birth dates and astronomical data aren't subjected to copyright protection.

    1. Re:That's pretty standard by PCM2 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Then I guess you should have read the actual terms before you posted, hmm?

      Attribution and Licensing

              As Wolfram|Alpha is an authoritative source of information, maintaining the integrity of its data and the computations we do with that data is vital to the success of our project. We generate information ourselves, and we also gather, compare, contrast, and confirm data from multiple external sources. Where we have used external sources of data we list the source or sources we relied on, but in most cases the assemblages of data you get from Wolfram|Alpha do not come directly from any one external source. In many cases the data you are shown never existed before in exactly that way until you asked for it, so its provenance traces back both to underlying data sources and to the algorithms and knowledge built into the Wolfram|Alpha computational system. As such, the results you get from Wolfram|Alpha are correctly attributed to Wolfram|Alpha itself.

              If you make results from Wolfram|Alpha available to anyone else, or incorporate those results into your own documents or presentations, you must include attribution indicating that the results AND/OR [emphasis mine] the presentation of the results came from Wolfram|Alpha. Some Wolfram|Alpha results include copyright statements or attributions linking the results to us or to third-party data providers, and you may not remove or obscure those attributions or copyright statements. Whenever possible, such attribution should take the form of a link to Wolfram|Alpha, either to the front page of the website or, better yet, to the specific query that generated the results you used. (This is also the most useful form of attribution for your readers, and they will appreciate your using links whenever possible.)

              A list of suggested citation styles and icons is available here.

            Failure to properly attribute results from Wolfram|Alpha is not only a violation of these terms, but may also constitute academic plagiarism OR [emphasis mine] a violation of copyright law. Attribution is something we expect you to give us in exchange for us having provided you with a high-quality free service.

              The specific images, such as plots, typeset formulas, and tables, as well as the general page layouts, are all copyrighted by Wolfram|Alpha at the time Wolfram|Alpha generates them. A great deal of scholarship and innovation is included in the results generated and displayed by Wolfram|Alpha, including the presentations, collections, and juxtapositions of data, and the choices involved in formulating and composing mathematical results; these are also protected by copyright.

              You may use any results, including copyrighted results, from Wolfram|Alpha for personal use and in academic or non-commercial publications, provided you comply with these terms.

              If you want to use copyrighted results returned by Wolfram|Alpha in a commercial or for-profit publication we will usually be happy to grant you a low- or no-cost license to do so. To request a commercial-use license, go to this form and provide the input for which you want to use the corresponding output along with information concerning the nature of your proposed use. Your request will be reviewed and answered as quickly as practical.

      DISCLAIMER: These results are the property of Wolfram|Alpha.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    2. Re:That's pretty standard by 800DeadCCs · · Score: 2, Informative

      You didn't know what you were looking for, we did.
      we found it for you, you WILL find that what we gave you is what you were looking for.
      If you have a problem with this, we will kill you.
      (or failing that, come close enough for a copyright suit... how about a copyright vest? trousers?... what about a copyright shirt and tie?)

    3. Re:That's pretty standard by SirGarlon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Things such as birth dates and astronomical data aren't subjected to copyright protection.

      That's not for lack of trying, though.

      --
      [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    4. Re:That's pretty standard by Bakkster · · Score: 5, Informative

      Don't see what the big deal is, here. Since Google doesn't host any of the actual information, you don't need to cite them as a source. You do need to cite the page you get to from Google, though. Think of W|A like a procedurally generated encyclopedia/textbook/almanac. Just like any of those other sources, you should cite it as a reference.

      The sooner people stop associating Google and Alpha in their heads, the better.

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    5. Re:That's pretty standard by noidentity · · Score: 1

      The answer to 2+2 might not surprise you, but that it's copyrighted by Wolfram may!

    6. Re:That's pretty standard by dmmiller2k · · Score: 1

      It's not the ANSWER they're copyrighting, but the specific PRESENTATION of that answer.

      To wit, the fact that they show the Input ("2 + 2"), the Result ("4"), the Number Name ("four"), and the Visual Representation (image of four dots) all together on the results page is their unique presentation.

      Compare Google's version. No spelled out number name, no image of dots.

      --

      "No matter how cynical you get, it is impossible to keep up." -- Lily Tomlin

    7. Re:That's pretty standard by rm999 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't see the problem here. It really would be plagiarism to copy paste one of those plots into your paper and claim you generated it yourself.

      I think we would need a lawyer for any further analysis, but I never really did think I could just gather a bunch of PDFs from Alpha (e.g. pages of common probability distributions) and claim the compiled book as my own.

    8. Re:That's pretty standard by TwilightXaos · · Score: 1

      The entire page is copyrighted by Wolfram. Compare with this example:

      It may not surprise you that the line of perl code
      print "Hello, world!\n";
      "prints the message Hello, world!"(Swhartz & Phoenix, 2001) And the fact that it appears in a book, the text of which is copyrighted by O'Reilly Media, Inc. Which reserves all rights to the work should not surprise you either.

      Schwartz, Randal L., & Phoenix, Tom. (2001). Learning Perl (3rd ed.). Sebastopol, CA: O'Reilly Media.

    9. Re:That's pretty standard by mdwh2 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Just like any of those other sources, you should cite it as a reference

      I should, if I'm writing an academic paper. I never thought of it as something that should be enforced, with them claiming I've violated the ToS, or threatening copyright infringement, especially when all I'm doing is posting a search result to Slashdot.

    10. Re:That's pretty standard by DragonWriter · · Score: 5, Interesting

      From the terms of service:

      In many cases the data you are shown never existed before in exactly that way until you asked for it, so its provenance traces back both to underlying data sources and to the algorithms and knowledge built into the Wolfram|Alpha computational system. As such, the results you get from Wolfram|Alpha are correctly attributed to Wolfram|Alpha itself.

      If it didn't exist before I asked for it, and my asking for it was the only human action that caused it to come into existence, if there is an "author" for copyright purposes, it's me. The only way Wolfram could, therefore, claim copyright on it is if it was a work for hire, but since I'm not a Wolfram employee acting within the scope of my employment, and since there is no agreement signed by both parties designating it a work for hire, that doesn't work either.

      Consequently, I'd say their own terms of service defeat their claim to copyright.

    11. Re:That's pretty standard by DragonWriter · · Score: 2, Informative

      Google doesn't host any of the actual information, you don't need to cite them as a source.

      Google does, in fact, host all of the information used in their searches (it doesn't go out a spider the web in response to your request, it spiders it earlier, creates a database, supplements that database with information about your and other users past searches and behavior, and uses that database when you enter a search query.)

    12. Re:That's pretty standard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So we now know that Wolfram has no understanding of copyright law.

      Honestly, having used this, it is the most overhyped POS I have seen since... actually I can't recall anything that fell so far short of the marketing. Jurassic Park probably comes a distant second.

    13. Re:That's pretty standard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I understand correctly, the Wolfram|Alpha peoples realize this - that's why it is explicitly mentioned in the terms of service. You're forfeiting your right to the stuff you just created by using the service.

    14. Re:That's pretty standard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      According to German law, I can not transfer copyright nor can I grant an exclusive license without adequate compensation (a non-exclusive license is possible). So internationally they might still have some issues.

    15. Re:That's pretty standard by dzfoo · · Score: 1

      No, what they mean by that comment on things that didn't exist before you queried is auto-generated stuff like graphs and the results of correlations you requested.

      Still, they are only claiming ownership of the representation of these results.

                -dZ.

      --
      Carol vs. Ghost
      ...Can you save Christmas?
    16. Re:That's pretty standard by dzfoo · · Score: 1

      Google does not return any of it's own content, but hyperlinks to external sources. They do not claim ownership to those, but they do claim ownership to the content they generate, such as ads and such:

      http://www.google.com/accounts/TOS

      8.1 You understand that all information (such as data files, written text, computer software, music, audio files or other sounds, photographs, videos or other images) which you may have access to as part of, or through your use of, the Services are the sole responsibility of the person from which such content originated. All such information is referred to below as the "Content".

      8.2 You should be aware that Content presented to you as part of the Services, including but not limited to advertisements in the Services and sponsored Content within the Services may be protected by intellectual property rights which are owned by the sponsors or advertisers who provide that Content to Google (or by other persons or companies on their behalf). You may not modify, rent, lease, loan, sell, distribute or create derivative works based on this Content (eith

      Wolfram|Alpha does more than host third-party content; they compute and correlate this data in order to offer meaningful and useful results. It is not an index.

                -dZ.

      --
      Carol vs. Ghost
      ...Can you save Christmas?
    17. Re:That's pretty standard by MBHkewl · · Score: 1

      I kind of disagree with you here.

      Let's say you're doing a research and require certain information that is considered in a lower level than your research is targeting, you wouldn't want to waste your time researching that just tso that you continue your original work; Wolfram will do that part for you, therefor, they have presented you with the result of a research.

      I say research because this is what it's intended for. Don't think of it as a custom furniture shop where you claim copyright to your design of the furniture.

      --
      Mod points are a dangerous tool. Abuse them wisely.
    18. Re:That's pretty standard by TractorBarry · · Score: 1

      > The sooner people stop associating Google and Alpha in their heads, the better.

      Yup, everyone knows Google stuff is always Beta.

      --
      Sky subscribers are morons. They pay to be advertised at !
    19. Re:That's pretty standard by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Let's say you're doing a research and require certain information that is considered in a lower level than your research is targeting, you wouldn't want to waste your time researching that just tso that you continue your original work; Wolfram will do that part for you, therefor, they have presented you with the result of a research.

      Yes, if that was what was happening -- I was contracting for Wolfram to go and expend human effort to create a new work for me -- that would be a valid point.

      But copyright, what Wolfram is claiming, depends on authorship; they specifically claim that the work they are claiming copyright too does not exist before the request, and although sometimes the query is slow enough that they could be expending human effort putting it together, they claim that's not what they are doing. So on what basis are they claiming copyright, which depends on authorship? The only human effort, and therefore the only basis for any claim of authorship (though I am not saying even this is a strong one) is mine, by the claims in their own terms of service.

      I say research because this is what it's intended for.

      Yes, its intended as a tool the user applies to do research. A tool that I use to do something doesn't give the tool creator a right to claim authorship of what I create with the tool. Insofar as an original work subject to copyright is created through my interaction with W|A, their own claims refute any attempt by W|A to claim authorship of that work.

      Don't think of it as a custom furniture shop where you claim copyright to your design of the furniture.

      I don't think of it as a custom furniture shop -- after all, if it was, there would be human effort involved in response to my requirements, and the shop would be the default owner under copyright of any design they produced. What would give me a claim to copyright would be a written agreement making the work a work for hire. But here, there is no human at Wolfram creating the result, and hence no authorship.

    20. Re:That's pretty standard by lockestep · · Score: 1

      However, material created while under contract to another entity is the property of that entity unless agreed otherwise. If you are employed by DuPont and invent Nylon II, DuPont will own the patent, and you will get a mention but have no further rights. Similarly, if you write for a publication, there is normally a specific agreement as to who owns the rights to the material. Get hired by the NY Times as a reporter and try and publish a compilation of your writing and the Times will rightly claim the words are their property. Wolfram is making the same claim here, and since you are using their site, their TOS is a contract. Your use is acceptance of the contract.

    21. Re:That's pretty standard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seems pretty clear that they only want attribution if you are citing their composite answer to your question. If you don't cite their composite answer, but instead use them the way you use Google (as a way of finding documentation for various items of information), then you cite the sources of documentation you find, not the search engine, just as with Google.

      If you actually cite Wolfram's composite answer, then you should of course cite Wolfram. Seems perfectly innocuous to me.

      Alec Rawls

    22. Re:That's pretty standard by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      However, material created while under contract to another entity is the property of that entity unless agreed otherwise.

      Wrong. First of all, being "under contract" is a reciprocal relationship, so that doesn't even make sense, since if one party is under contract to another, the reverse is also true. Second, under US copyright law, a work is a work for hire if and only if either (a) the work is made by an employee within the scope of employment, or (b) if the work is "specially ordered or commissioned for use as a contribution to a collective work, as a part of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, as a translation, as a supplementary work, as a compilation, as an instructional text, as a test, as answer material for a test, or as an atlas" and there is an agreement signed by both parties in place when the explicitly designating the work as a work for hire; the mere fact that entity A has a contractual relationship entity B does not give entity B automatically copyright.

      If you are employed by DuPont and invent Nylon II, DuPont will own the patent, and you will get a mention but have no further rights.

      This isn't a patent case, and patent law is different from copyright law. But even in copyright the same would likely be true because it would be work done by an employee within the scope of employment. This is not, however, applicable here, insofar as users posting queries to Wolfram|Alpha are not Wolfram employees acting within the scope of their employment.

      Similarly, if you write for a publication, there is normally a specific agreement as to who owns the rights to the material.

      Yes, there is likely, if the work is not within the scope of regular employment, to be an agreement signed by the parties explicitly designating the writing you are assigned to do as a "work for hire" under copyright law, if the work is specially commissioned and is the kind of work which can be a "work for hire". The reason that such signed agreements, with explicit designation of the work as a work for hire are used is because this is a requirement for the work to be a work for hire under copyright law. However, there is no signed agreement between most users of W|A and Wolfram, and while the Terms of Service (which are not signed by either party) assert Wolfram's claim of copyright based on some legally spurious grounds, they do not designate the work produced explicitly as a "work for hire" by the user for Wolfram, and thus they would not, even if signed, suffice to meet the requirements of copyright law to make the work a work for hire, furthermore, even if the right kind of agreement existed, and it was signed, the work isn't "specially commissioned" by Wolfram.

      Wolfram is making the same claim here, and since you are using their site, their TOS is a contract.

      Wolfram is not only not making the same claim (that a work is a "work for hire") typically made by a newspaper that has a signed contract with a writer working on a commission, they don't have an agreement in the form required by copyright law to give effect to such a claim even if they did make it, and the work isn't produced in the circumstances that would allow it to be a work for hire even with an appropriate agreement in place.

    23. Re:That's pretty standard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your action is not the only human action which caused it to come into existence. The actions of the people who operate W|A also count.

      Additionally, their terms of service are effectively an agreement designating the copyright ownership. They are providing you something of value (the information), in exchange for something of value (copyright and attribution rights in the information). Just because there's no money involved doesn't make it not an exchange.

    24. Re:That's pretty standard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "If it didn't exist before I asked for it, and my asking for it was the only human action that caused it to come into existence.."

      That's where you're wrong. The good folks at Wolfram Alpha WROTE THE CODE AND BUILT THE WEB PAGE that you used to ask the question and that they used to answer it. I'd say that was "human action".

  6. First it would have to actually do something... by calmofthestorm · · Score: 4, Insightful

    the legalese says that they claim copyright on the each results page and require attribution.

    and that day appears a long way off, especially given the way they hyped it.

    Besides, all their data comes from somewhere, and I don't see those attributions. And by all their data I mean symbolic integration, fractals, and Wolfram's formulation of a Turing machine which no one else uses.

    I don't know what Alpha will be like in the future, but I was extremely disappointed in the present, and imagine Google^2 will make Alpha obsolete very soon anyway.

    --
    93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
    1. Re:First it would have to actually do something... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      googol squared?
      That's a lot of zeros....

    2. Re:First it would have to actually do something... by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      I dunno, I was pretty impressed with the math example.

      On the one hand, with Alpha, no one really needs to learn basic calculus any more. On the other hand, with Alpha, lots of people aren't going to learn basic calculus....

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    3. Re:First it would have to actually do something... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Alpha does provide attributions, at the bottom of the results page you can click on "Source Information." Although, it still lists itself as the primary source...

    4. Re:First it would have to actually do something... by dzfoo · · Score: 1

      >> Besides, all their data comes from somewhere, and I don't see those attributions.

      Check out the "Source information" at the bottom of each results page. It'll give you bibliographical information on the data used to process your query; and where that data is available on the Web, it'll by hyperlinked.

              -dZ.

      --
      Carol vs. Ghost
      ...Can you save Christmas?
    5. Re:First it would have to actually do something... by 2short · · Score: 1

      "I dunno, I was pretty impressed with the math example."

      You were pretty impressed with an example generated by Wolfram? From my own experience, and what I've heard from others, it's obviously frightening complex and sophisticated, and produces very impressive Wolfram-run demos. But when someone else tries to use it to produce some significant piece of information they actually want, it fails miserably.

  7. And yet by bunyip · · Score: 0

    They don't attribute their sources, such as Wikipedia. They may be on a slippery slope here....

    1. Re:And yet by Jugalator · · Score: 4, Informative

      They don't? All calculations generate the sources under the "Source information" link on each page.

      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    2. Re:And yet by ais523 · · Score: 1

      The source information is ridiculously general; it tends to be either blank, or list every source used anywhere in a very general way. If all the results cite two different versions of the Encyclopedia Britannica and also Wikipedia, how can we tell which particular Wikipedia page the information came from? (That's needed to know the author list and thus know the information required by Wikipedia's license, whether it's GFDL or CC-by-sa.)

      --
      (1)DOCOMEFROM!2~.2'~#1WHILE:1<-"'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"
    3. Re:And yet by kaini · · Score: 1

      there's already been quite a bit of discussion on wiki regarding whether it's okay to use WA as a source, and the general consensus seems to be that it isn't.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#wolfram_alpha--_moving_discussion

      --
      please restate bitrate in libraries of congress per hour.
    4. Re:And yet by idontgno · · Score: 2, Funny

      Irony: Wikipedia calling your information service non-authoritative.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    5. Re:And yet by kaini · · Score: 1

      well, it uses wiki as a source. if wiki started using it as a source as well, it would create some weird citation divide by ze

      --
      please restate bitrate in libraries of congress per hour.
    6. Re:And yet by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      Ironic if you're Alanis maybe. Otherwise it's just a straw man.

      No one claims Wikipedia is itself authoritative - like any encyclopedia, its purpose is collect information together by reference to reliable sources.

      The particular problem in this case is that if Wolfram is including information from Wikipedia (but without specifying exactly), then it can't be cited because there of the risk of a circular reference. You know, the sort of thing people like you whine about when a single instance of it in Wikipedia's millions of articles is shown to have occurred at some point in the past.

      Now go back to trusting your tabloids.

    7. Re:And yet by DragonWriter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      All calculations generate the sources under the "Source information" link on each page.

      They don't identify the sources of particular facts used (for instance, if you ask for the population of a country, you'll get a Wolfram|Alpha "Primary Source" -- and a whole list of other sources that are generically root sources of population data.)

      Meanwhile, if I ask Google for the population of a country, I get a numeric answer with a specific website that is the source of the information. (I point to that specific example because its one thing that has been repeatedly held up, I assume by people who have never actually used Google, as something that W|A is good at that Google can't do.)

      When you ask W|A a fact question (as opposed to an abstract mathematical/logic question), you get some response, with no idea of how the response was derived or what actual source data was, in fact, used to derive it. That might be occasionally entertaining, but its pretty much useless for any serious purpose.

  8. slow searches by NynexNinja · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    its nice if you like waiting several minutes to return any search results.... i ran a couple searches and i got so bored of waiting that i started doing something else and then completely forgot about it, came back about 3 minutes later and it was still searching!

    1. Re:slow searches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It isn't a search engine; it doesn't search. I'm going to rip my face off if I hear another person refer to it as a search engine.

    2. Re:slow searches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It showed no results for porn. What a crap search engine. /*hears ripping noises*/

    3. Re:slow searches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just searched for "rip my face off" on Wolfram|Alpha, but didn't get any results:
      http://www28.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=rip+my+face+off

      Google however does a much better job searching for results:
      http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=rip+my+face+off&aq=f&oq=&aqi=&fp=KNCTcOoW5w8

      Google definitely has more of the internet indexed. Wolfram|Alpha sucks.

    4. Re:slow searches by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      It isn't a search engine; it doesn't search.

      It doesn't search in almost precisely the same sense that Google doesn't search; it does queries on a proprietary datastore and presents the results. The datastore contains different kinds of data that Google's indexes, and the query facility supports a different set of operators and different means of inferring when a particular term is a query term or an operator.

    5. Re:slow searches by I+cant+believe+its+n · · Score: 1

      It isn't a search engine; it doesn't search. I'm going to rip my face off if I hear another person refer to it as a search engine.

      The Golgafrincham arrival spurs the extinction of the native "cavemen", although as Ford Prefect pointed out, they did not live in caves, to which a witty repartee was that they "might have been getting their caves redecorated".

      --
      She made the willows dance
  9. That's OK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We're all going to get sucked into a the black hole that will be formed when Stephen Wolfram's ego collapses under it's own weight anyway...

  10. Nothing to worry about for academics by jw3 · · Score: 5, Informative

    All they ask is that you attribute them when publishing results derived from their service. Example:

    Methods: "The comparative population studies were derived from the Wolphram Alpha service (Wolphram, 2009)"

    Regular thing for academics. I cite NCBI blast service, I cite PFAM, I cite dozens of other services out there. Most of these tools require or ask for an attribution; and in most cases, this is anyways necessary in a scientific procedure.

    j.

    1. Re:Nothing to worry about for academics by forand · · Score: 5, Interesting

      How is it reasonable to ask for attribution for having a computer perform a calculation on someone else's data? Wolfram Alpha has do nothing except code a turing machine, I do not cite HP when I do a calculation on my calculator and I see no reason why more complex but equally wrote calculations should be. I ask the computer a question and it gives an answer, is the question or code used to find the answer the insightful/citable part of the idea?

    2. Re:Nothing to worry about for academics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, but such a citation is also very useless for the readers of an article, since a search engine/computational service does not produce immutable results. You never know when you read the article and check the stuff in Wolfram Alpha yourself, if the results you get are the same the authors used.

      Basically a service like Wolfram Alpha is not usable as an academic source.

    3. Re:Nothing to worry about for academics by jw3 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You think it's not reasonable? Then write your own Wolphram Alpha, if you really think it is that simple, and use that instead of WA for your work. Man, you have no idea what you are talking about here. Modern biology would be nowhere if people who build such "turing machines" were not credited for their work, and consequently get grants for their research.

      For example, tons of software in bioinformatics is written with a completely open source and well known algorithms, using data gathered by experimentalists, and yet they get the recognition -- because someone had to come up the with the idea, gather (and maintain!) the data, run tests, implement, etc. etc. Believe me, even with simple ideas and algorithms and for simpler data sets this is a shitload of work. Heck, even re-implementations of existing tools get recognized.

      Secondly, a scientific procedure requires that you publish your methods -- you have used software X to generate figure Y and table Z, then you have to write how you did it. And noone in her or his right mind will reimplement existing tools just for the sake of the current work without a very good reason.

      That said, sometimes a tool like that allows you to "get on the trail" -- which you then pursue using something else. For example, WA would give you a hint that there might be a connection between cancer and, say, cigarettes, and you show this connection using clinical trials. In such a case, however, when you do not publish the data from WA directly, nor any figures derived from it, you are not required to cite it.

      Note that I am in no way convinced that WA is of any use. The parts of it that overlap with my area of expertise (biology / biocomputing) are naive and rudimentary, and mostly useless to say the least.

      j.

    4. Re:Nothing to worry about for academics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if people who build such "turing machines" were not credited for their work, and consequently get grants for their research.

      Credited is not the same thing as cited.

    5. Re:Nothing to worry about for academics by JustinOpinion · · Score: 1

      Which is exactly why academics will ignore the Wolfram|Alpha terms-of-service and simply use their own best judgment to decide when to cite it.

      No academic would cite Wolfram|Alpha (or any other software package) when they use it to perform some simple calculation, like sin(x) or whatever. But if the piece of software is performing a non-trivial calculation, then it should be cited, both to provide proper credit/attribution, and to make the methods section of a paper complete (it is possible that there is something idiosyncratic or even buggy about how it analyzed the data).

      Like I said, academics will use their own judgment to decide whether or not to cite W|A, just like they do will all other software packages. If it's routine and trivial, and could have been just as easily calculated with some other software package, no one will mention it. If it's novel and complicated, people will gladly cite the provenance of the analysis.

    6. Re:Nothing to worry about for academics by istewart · · Score: 1

      Science is all about having replicable results... how could someone replicate your results if you failed to list all the procedures you used?

    7. Re:Nothing to worry about for academics by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      This is not about good scientific practices such as citations, it's about Terms Of Services and allegations of copyright infringement. If anything, I'd say that those things are the very opposite to the scientific method.

    8. Re:Nothing to worry about for academics by omnichad · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This seems to be a fail of Software As A Service. Legal precedent already says that the output of software is owned by the user (so long as the user owns the input). Until we see this tested in court, we can't know for sure if this can be upheld. © Apple Computer (generated this post).

    9. Re:Nothing to worry about for academics by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      Have you even tried it? It's not a search engine.

      Many results it produces are immutable

      Data like the population of cities will of course vary over time, but there's quite a lot of stuff in there that's set in stone.

    10. Re:Nothing to worry about for academics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      you cite one piece of softare, do you cite every piece of hardware you used? like the keyboard you used to type up the paper?

    11. Re:Nothing to worry about for academics by dogmatixpsych · · Score: 1

      For this post I'll assume you are the researcher. It's very usable as an academic source (although I would not rely heavily on it). If you are using it for research, you would download the PDF of the page it creates. If someone is really interested in replicating your research, they could contact you and ask for your source data from Wolfram, which would be the PDF it created. That's a reasonable request to make and many researchers would honor it.

    12. Re:Nothing to worry about for academics by jw3 · · Score: 1

      You have not read the article (or you have read it, but failed to understand). For example, you write "so long as the user owns the input" -- and this is most obviously not the case here (because you don't own the data that was used to produce the graphics).

      Secondly, you don't own the software -- it is not running on your machine. Rather, you ask someone to produce specific results for you using software that you don't have and data that you don't own. It's like asking your friend, who owns rabbits and Adobe Illustrator, to draw an picture of a rabbit for you, and not like drawing yourself a picture of your own rabbit using your own software. It's a service, not a piece of software.

      Thirdly, the license is quite specific about what is the subject of the copyright. (i) data might be copyrighted by a third party, and therefore it is necessary to give a link to specific results so as to attribute this particular data correctly; (ii) "specific images, such as plots, typeset formulas, and tables, as well as the general page layouts" are copyrighted. If you care, you can reproduce them on your own using your own software and data.

      Finally, it is way better to have a precise license that clearly states what is allowed and what is not allowed than to be unsure whether the results can be used (and in what form), and who actually owns the copyright.

      j.

    13. Re:Nothing to worry about for academics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Depends if the keyboard provided you with any information you used in your paper. It didn't? Then no, you wouldn't cite it.

    14. Re:Nothing to worry about for academics by Per+Abrahamsen · · Score: 1

      I'd probably not attribute HP, but I might attribute Mathematica if I used results of computations that are non-trivial (not easily recreatable without Mathematica).

      I believe it will sort itself out with Wolfram Alpha. Normally you'd try to go to the primary sources and attribute them (just like you'd do with Wikipedia and Google). And simple calculations could be done by any means, so attribution is not necessary (the presented results cannot be traced back to Wolfram Alpha).

      But for some of the more specialized queries where you let Wolfram Alpha combine information from multiple sources and perform computations on them, you will want to add an attribution. The sources section of Wolfram Alpha is sufficiently vague and the computations sometimes non-transparent, that you are basically trusting Wolfram Alpha on this stuff, and your readers deserve to know this.

      It also serves as an insurance if the information happens to be wrong. Wrong information presented with attribution is the fault of the source, wrong information given without attribution is your responsibility.

    15. Re:Nothing to worry about for academics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many results it produces are immutable

      No they are not.
      Assume that I would really use the caffeine result in a paper and there is an error in the Wolfram Alpha page.
      There is no guarantee that versions retrieved later would show the same error, which could be actually important to follow the reasoning my (imaginary) paper.
      Opposite to that would be citing a journal paper or a book. One can always retrieve the very same version which was used for doing the research.

    16. Re:Nothing to worry about for academics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um, _you_ are also nothing but a turing machine.

    17. Re:Nothing to worry about for academics by forand · · Score: 1

      I do program my own analysis software. But it answers very specific questions, the huge difference between what a scientist does and what WA has done is that a scientist answers very specific questions and WA claims to answer pretty much anything. After having used it the answers are pretty much useless unless you are trying to win a bar bet. So if their software could answer scientifically significant questions without the need for human intervention then I would agree with you. As it stand they are asking to be cited for searching a database and running mathematica. Mathematica is nice, it can solve some equations fast than I can but in the end if I am going to rely on it I have to derive it because it also produces useless incorrect answers at times, so it it at best a more complex calculator and and worse a calculator which may or may not give you the right answer.

  11. Of course. by PCM2 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Wolfram Alpha doesn't just provide you with knowledge. It provides you with a new kind of knowledge. Any knowledge you gain from it must be attributed to Stephen Wolfram ... because he invented it. It is actually safer to attribute all citations to Stephen Wolfram, in fact, because he is smarter than you.

    --
    Breakfast served all day!
    1. Re:Of course. by Xtifr · · Score: 3, Funny

      Sorry, I thought it was Wolfram, not Colbert. Guess I'll pay closer attention next time. :)

    2. Re:Of course. by steelfood · · Score: 1

      Funny, I thought it was the other way around...

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    3. Re:Of course. by blincoln · · Score: 1

      Wolfram Alpha doesn't just provide you with knowledge. It provides you with a new kind of knowledge. Any knowledge you gain from it must be attributed to Stephen Wolfram ... because he invented it.

      Note: you may not fully appreciate this joke unless you have read some or all of Wolfram's voluminous tome A New Kind of Science.

      --
      "...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
    4. Re:Of course. by Paracelcus · · Score: 1

      Wolfram deserves a big wet raspberry from everybody who thinks he is nothing more than an insufferable ego-maniac windbag that like the rest of us ride along on the coattails of the really great minds that came before.

      --
      I killed da wabbit -Elmer Fudd
    5. Re:Of course. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Knowledge"? Don't you mean Wolfram Knowledge(TM) 7? ;)

  12. I don't really see a problem... by Jugalator · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Of course I can see them wanting to be attributed for calculations? But what's the problem with that? I *want* to see attribution when a blog, newspaper, or scientific report spits out a series of numbers anyway, especially if it involves something else than raw mathematics, like statistics. That's something I see as important as they can just as well demand it in my opinion. I consider it a service to me.

    If there's something that annoy me, it's unsourced calculations. If it's attributed to WA, then I can at least use the same query on WA and in turn see what WA used as sources for that specific query (under the "source information" link at the bottom of each page)

    --
    Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
  13. Copyright what!? by darealpat · · Score: 1

    So they are saying basically that since it is a "computational service" that they have the rights to the question that I used in order for them to do that particular computation? How does that work exactly?

    Isn't that a little like saying that since you are a chef and I give you the ingredients for chicken pot-pie and tell you to make it since I don't know how, and you do so, you have the rights to the pie you made?

    As far as attribution, I don't have a problem saying that they helped me, once they can also state their attributions.

    --
    For every present, there is a past
    1. Re:Copyright what!? by HikingStick · · Score: 1

      Though IANAL, their copyright would be on the way they express the search results on the page (the way the content is displayed, ranked, any graphic design elements, etc.). They do not actually have standing to claim copyright on the content that is displayed (e.g., song lyrics, citation from a book), but only the way they display it.

      --
      I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
  14. Well, WolframAlpha didn't tell me much . . . by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 0

    I asked: "My mother and your mother were hanging out clothes. My mother punched your mother right in the nose. What color blood came out?"

    WolframAlpha answered: "Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input."

    I guess folks say that to me a lot, though, whenever I ask them something.

    Google with the same question gave me a link to "Ghastly Games," which I though was pretty amusing.

    So it depends on what type of service you are looking for on the Internet . . . answers to serious questions, or just plain amusement.

    --
    Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    1. Re:Well, WolframAlpha didn't tell me much . . . by tehrob · · Score: 1

      I asked: how much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? Result: a woodchuck would chuck all the wood he could chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood (according to the tongue-twister)

  15. Must anyone care about their rules for links? by Shoe+Puppet · · Score: 1

    Is there actually anywhere (US or EU) a legal basis for them to bar people from linking to their site?

    --
    (+1, Disagree)
    1. Re:Must anyone care about their rules for links? by ais523 · · Score: 1

      The Terms of Use claim to be a contract. If they are, and if visitors agree to it, they can probably do anything. Obviously, those are two rather significant "if"s.

      --
      (1)DOCOMEFROM!2~.2'~#1WHILE:1<-"'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"
    2. Re:Must anyone care about their rules for links? by maxume · · Score: 1

      If I copy a link to the site off of an external blog, I probably don't have to pay much attention to anything they say.

      Lawyers might disagree, but so far, internet culture supports linking to things that someone has put on a publicly accessible server.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    3. Re:Must anyone care about their rules for links? by corbettw · · Score: 1

      A contract requires some specific elements to be enforceable: an offer, an acceptance, and a consideration. You could say putting up the site is an offer to use it, and actually using it is an acceptance of this offer. But there's no consideration being traded. Hence, their TOS is not a contract.

      It's more accurate to say the TOS is a license to use their site. But even in that case, what remedy could they pursue if someone used their information without their permission or in a way that contravenes the TOS? Bar them from the site? But to do so would require every user to have a login to the system.

      The entire TOS is pointless and is merely an example of what happens when an otherwise intelligent ventures into areas they know nothing about. In this case, a mathematics expert trying to act like a lawyer.

      Note: I am not a lawyer, nor am I a mathematics expert. So take all this with a salt mine.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    4. Re:Must anyone care about their rules for links? by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 1


      Is there actually anywhere (US or EU) a legal basis for them to bar people from linking to their site?

      If they have an issue, then we could organise someone to hijack his domain entry. That way they would not have to worry about anyone linking to their site. I almost feel he is as disconnected from reality as the record industry is.

      --
      Jumpstart the tartan drive.
  16. Of course by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Of course it requires attribution; it's used to create original data. You shouldn't use BLASTN or CLUSTALW without citing their authors, why would it be any different for something like this? As has been mentioned numerous times already, W|A is not merely a search engine. It's a set of algorithms for manipulating the data that you specify.

    And how pathetic/dishonest a scientist or professional would you have to be not to want to attribute it? Sources of information should be cited and experimental results should be verifiable.

    1. Re:Of course by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      What original data does it provide?
      Quoting books and solving formulas are not examples of original data.

    2. Re:Of course by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      RTFS. This isn't a debate about whether attributations are good, it's about allegations of copyright infringment.

      When I blog about what I ate for breakfast, sure it might be good practice to attribute some fact I give about the food I ate, but that doesn't mean not doing so should be illegal.

    3. Re:Of course by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Let's say I have a TI-86 in front of me....and I add 2+2. They're saying that if TI wanted to, that they can forbid me from using that 4 without attributing it to them. Sounds a little ridiculous to me.

    4. Re:Of course by Brett+Buck · · Score: 1

      Of course it requires attribution; it's used to create original data. You shouldn't use BLASTN or CLUSTALW without citing their authors, why would it be any different for something like this? As has been mentioned numerous times already, W|A is not merely a search engine. It's a set of algorithms for manipulating the data that you specify.

      And how pathetic/dishonest a scientist or professional would you have to be not to want to attribute it? Sources of information should be cited and experimental results should be verifiable.

              So, for example, I get the series expansion for some function I type in. I have to credit Wolfram Alpha, apparently. Same situation, but I write it out on a pad of paper with a pencil. I have to credit Boise-Cascade paper company, and Faber-Castell for making the pencil? Suppose I take the square root of 5 with a slide rule - I attribute it to Aristo corporation? I don't see any significant difference.

                Brett

    5. Re:Of course by dzfoo · · Score: 1

      Graphs, charts, molecular designs, etc.

              -dZ.

      --
      Carol vs. Ghost
      ...Can you save Christmas?
  17. I'm not sure what to do with your input by Kupfernigk · · Score: 4, Funny

    (c) Wolfram Alpha. From now on, I'm going to make sure that I attribute all failures to understand to Mr. Wolfram.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
    1. Re:I'm not sure what to do with your input by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From now on, I'm going to make sure that I attribute all failures to understand to Mr. Wolfram.

      Yup. I heard that Stephan was the first person to make the mistake of thinking that the Subject box is just the first line of your comment, rather than a summary (the "subject" if you will) of your post.

    2. Re:I'm not sure what to do with your input by Katatsumuri · · Score: 1

      This absolutely has to enter the meme hall of fame, along with "I find your ideas intriguing...", "You keep using that word..." and the like.

      Please use this on every occasion.

  18. It's not a bold claim by MikeRT · · Score: 1

    The law already protects databases of public facts. Why would a spontaneously generated list not be copyrightable? Personally, I hope that the courts will see through that argument and call it a violation of the spirit of the law, but I won't hold my breath that they won't say that a list of copyrighted quotes isn't protected if the creator of the list claims that THAT list is protected.

    1. Re:It's not a bold claim by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed,

      There's a number of decided cases where lists are copyrightable - the list have to be intelligently arranged or there must be some discrimination in the list selection, and in the US, as I understand, the list cannot be the only logical way to present the data, like a phone book.

    2. Re:It's not a bold claim by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      The law already protects databases of public facts.

      What law, specifically?

      Why would a spontaneously generated list not be copyrightable?

      Because copyright is tied to the original work of authorship, and while a database of public facts that someone compiles may require original work, a list generated by a computer program in response to a user query has no original work specific to the output involved except the users in coming up with the query, so there is no basis for anyone, except maybe the user submitting the query, to claim copyright on the result. The program itself, of course, is subject to copyright by whoever created it, but creating a tool does not give you copyright to what other people create using the tool, even if you have a copyright to the tool itself.

  19. Not Surprising by JamesP · · Score: 1

    Wolfram got bit, BAD by its case with mathworld and the corresponding book.

    End of story, the tail wag the dog and CRC turned (almost stole) an 'pre-wikipedia' and turned into its own property.

    It's not surprising he's being extra careful now.

    --
    how long until /. fixes commenting on Chrome?
  20. not quite what it says by fermion · · Score: 4, Informative
    The Wolfram terms of service says that Alpha is capable of generating content from several data sources,and sometimes Alpha considers the content sufficiently original that it will attribute the content to itself. Otherwise, it will attribute the content to the source where it was derived. What is interesting is that we have a machine generating what is essentially one time use content, and the machine then gains a copyright to the content that others, even humans, have to respect. It is no more crazy than assigning a copyright to a corporation, so we should not be surprised. In any case, Wolfram does have a point that content should always be attributed to a source, and that people have become quite lazy on this issue, as various accusations of high level plagiarism have shown. Since Google only indexes, it does not really know Providence and cannot claim copyright to anything in particular.

    There are couple of really scary things in the terms of use. For instance, minors are not allowed to use the service without the permission of adults, and adults become fully responsible for the actions of the child. I am unsure of why they felt they had to put that in there. Then there is the first sentence "The Wolfram|Alpha service may be used only by a human being using a conventional web browser to manually enter queries one at a time". I hate to have to define what a conventional browser is. For may people it would be only IE.

    More scare is the ambiguous policy to deep linking. To wit "It is not permitted to use Wolfram|Alpha indirectly through another website that has created a large number of deep links to Wolfram|Alpha, or that automatically constructs links based on input that you give on that site, rather than on Wolfram|Alpha. You may not in effect use Wolfram|Alpha through an alternate user interface presented by another website." Clearly they want to not have bots and third parties writing code to hijck the site. Disappointing given the wonderful work they did with Mathworld.

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    1. Re:not quite what it says by klenwell · · Score: 1

      I guess we'll never see anything like this:

      http://www.monzy.org/unsafesearch/

      --
      Innovation makes enemies of all those who prospered under the old regime... -- Machiavelli
    2. Re:not quite what it says by Shoe+Puppet · · Score: 1

      What is interesting is that we have a machine generating what is essentially one time use content, and the machine then gains a copyright to the content that others, even humans, have to respect. It is no more crazy than assigning a copyright to a corporation, so we should not be surprised.

      I disagree, it is more crazy. A company at least consists of and is owned by humans, so assigning copyright to one could be interpreted as collectively assigning copyright to the owners or the people of whom it consists.

      There are couple of really scary things in the terms of use. For instance, minors are not allowed to use the service without the permission of adults, and adults become fully responsible for the actions of the child. I am unsure of why they felt they had to put that in there.

      No one gives a shit on clauses like that. Anyway, what danger can you do with a query? (Has anyone asked it about Little Bobby Tables yet? :) )

      --
      (+1, Disagree)
    3. Re:not quite what it says by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Clearly, they're going to have to sue Google's spider.

  21. Re:6*9 by cheftw · · Score: 1
    --
    Always back up, never back down. ---- Think you're cool 'cos your uid is prime? Take mine, modulo the one digit integers
  22. Wolfram Copyright by SiliconSeraph · · Score: 1

    Anyone else find the fact that locational searches link to Google maps satellite images to be somewhat ironic?

  23. They are sending results back as images... by dvh.tosomja · · Score: 1

    They are sending results back as images, I would expect everything from them!

  24. Re:6*9 by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

    how is this original data? This is just a public fact.

  25. Does it cut both ways? by Bill+Dimm · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If attribution is required because (according to the TOS):

    In many cases the data you are shown never existed before in exactly that way until you asked for it, so its provenance traces back both to underlying data sources and to the algorithms and knowledge built into the Wolfram|Alpha computational system. As such, the results you get from Wolfram|Alpha are correctly attributed to Wolfram|Alpha itself.

    Does that mean that Wolfram|Alpha can be sued for slander if its algorithm generates a false statement about some individual or corporation by "misunderstanding" the data it is digesting? In other words, if the result is something uniquely generated by Wolfram|Alpha, deserving of attribution in the same way that an author of a book deserves attribution, do they also deserve to be held liable if the content they are generating is incorrect or slanderous?

  26. Search Engine? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What sort of search engine is this!?

    I typed in 'porn' and it gave me pie charts.

    Is what the Internet has come to?

    1. Re:Search Engine? by SiliconSeraph · · Score: 2, Funny

      "Narrower terms: child pornography" Nice, Wolfram. Thanks.

    2. Re:Search Engine? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interpreting "hentai" as "centai".

      Yep, that thing is useless.

  27. eigenvectors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I searched for

    eigenvectors {{1,2},{3,4}}

    and it copyrighted the answer. Calculus students beware ...

  28. Good Attribution, Useless Result by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I typed: airspeed velocity of a swallow

    Input Interpretation: estimated average cruising airspeed of an unladen African swallow

    Result: there is unfortunately insufficient data to estimate the velocity of an African swallow
    (even if you specified which of the 47 species of swallow found in Africa you meant)
    (asked of a general swallow (but not answered) in Monty Python's Holy Grail.)

    Of course, now I know there are 47 species of swallow in Africa.

    1. Re:Good Attribution, Useless Result by riskeetee · · Score: 4, Funny

      I asked it "Who farted?" and got:

      Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input.

      Related inputs to try:

      People: ted

      Of course, the correct answer to this question would have been "He who smelt it, dealt it". I remain unimpressed.

    2. Re:Good Attribution, Useless Result by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yet google returns an estimated "11 meters per second" in the summary of the first search result. http://www.google.com/search?q=swallow+airspeed Interesting.

    3. Re:Good Attribution, Useless Result by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try: airspeed velocity of an unladen European swallow

      It gives an actual result (which I will not cite here).

    4. Re:Good Attribution, Useless Result by Sean0michael · · Score: 1

      I did the same search. It asked me if I wanted to try the same search for a European swallow instead, with a result of 25mph, with conversions to many other units of measure. Now we know.

      --
      Funtime Candy Wow! - my plan for eventually conquering Japan.
    5. Re:Good Attribution, Useless Result by GreenCow · · Score: 1

      Good find. If you type that into google you'll find the information you're looking for in the first result *thanks for the auto-cite slashdot

      That page even goes further to explain that the 47 african swallows are among 74 worldwide species of swallow.

    6. Re:Good Attribution, Useless Result by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, it seems ornithology/zoology isn't one of the strengths of w|a. I followed their advice and specified some African swallow species (namely "Hirundo spilodera" and "Pseudochelidon eurystomina") which w|a simply couldn't interpret.

    7. Re:Good Attribution, Useless Result by datafr0g · · Score: 1

      http://www26.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=how+much+wood+would+a+woodchuck+chuck

      I was satisfied with that result.
      Finally, I can sleep again.

      --
      "Who says nothing is impossible? Some people do it every day!" - Alfred E. Neuman
    8. Re:Good Attribution, Useless Result by overunderunderdone · · Score: 1

      But it does have the results for an unladen European swallow

  29. I JUST BROKE WOLFRAM ALPHA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Put in 4/0 (four divided by zero) and you get a divide by zero error, which breaks the page and outputs a bunch of database junk. They didn't think of this?

    1. Re:I JUST BROKE WOLFRAM ALPHA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      Input:
      4/0

      Result:
      infinity^~

      Oh noes, I broke their terms of service.

    2. Re:I JUST BROKE WOLFRAM ALPHA by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

      Put in 4/0 (four divided by zero) and you get a divide by zero error, which breaks the page and outputs a bunch of database junk. They didn't think of this?

      That's nothing, I just asked it a simple question and their server had an electronic breakdown and started billowing smoke. The question was...

      "Why?"

      (This may have been a "General" protection fault, ho ho ho...)

      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    3. Re:I JUST BROKE WOLFRAM ALPHA by Brett+Buck · · Score: 1

      "W, H, Y, question mark! " WHY?"

              Obscure reference noted and appreciated. I watched that one just the other day, one of the few really dated episodes.

             

    4. Re:I JUST BROKE WOLFRAM ALPHA by jc42 · · Score: 1

      Put in 4/0 (four divided by zero) and you get a divide by zero error, which breaks the page and outputs a bunch of database junk. They didn't think of this?

      That's nothing, I just asked it a simple question and their server had an electronic breakdown and started billowing smoke. The question was...

      "Why?"

      Well, duh; that's why it's Wolfram Alpha. ;-)

      When Wolfram Beta comes out, we can expect that it'll be able to give correct answers to both of your questions.

      You may not like the answers, though.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
  30. I farted in bed and it sounded like a dolphin by gatkinso · · Score: 0, Troll

    Naturally, I asked WolframAlpha about it.

    Wolfram didn't know what to do with that input.

    I have no use for such a shoddy search engine.

    --
    I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
  31. And they are soliciting donations of effort by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Haha, they want donations of effort and data organization from "experts" in various fields. This would not make me want to contribute.

    The machine is basically computing stuff, that's great, but it's dynamically generated content. Their copyrighting the presentation as well as some of the data (according to the TOS) but aren't specific about what is and what isn't.

    Basically that boils down to just trying to copyright facts and always have the upper hand so they can slap anyone they don't like.

    Their 15 minute video was intriguing, but in practice they have almost none of the medical crap you claimed actually in your dataset. Also, I found it very amusing to have tried some of the terms in their examples yesterday and get a "crappy service doesn't know what to do with your search terms" or whatever it says.

  32. Case sensitivity by The+Moof · · Score: 1

    It looks like its results are case sensitive, but the redirects don't know that.

    Did a search for 'hockey' and got some general information (as expected). Tried a new search for 'ice hockey' which attempted to redirected to 'Hockey' which apparently isn't a doesn't exist (the capital 'H' throws it off).

    Then it asked for my e-mail address for some reason...

  33. Oops! The Vulcan Academy cheer is now copyrighted by Otis+P.+Foont · · Score: 5, Funny

    I innocently entered "Secant Tangent Cosine Sine 3.14159" into WolframAlpha. The result, 74.69263, now belongs to Wolfram. Sorry about that.

    --
    One digit short of a palindrome.
  34. deep links by zarathud · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I note that Wolfram|Alpha happily deep-links to Google Maps.

  35. Needs a little work with it's data by cjjjer · · Score: 1

    I typed in my home town and it placed it somewhere in the North West Territories (Canada). So I used Coordinate Distance Calculator to calculate the distance to the actual coordinates, it seems that Wolfram|Alpha was only 6478.05 kilometers / 4025.27 miles out. Not bad...

  36. Category error by Branestawm · · Score: 1

    Seems pretty desperate to insist on citation to me - I note it suggests being the 'primary reference' in articles and essays! Well, no - if my students cite W|A as their primary reference there's going to be some low marks flying around. Similar paranoia surrounds Mathematica - download their 'home' version and you're apparently forbidden to publish anything 'discovered' with it. This is apparently a privilege only afforded to purchasers of the 'full' version. Fine. I'll keep using my existing software - imagine being stymied by having your breakthrough at home only to be sued by Wolfram for having your idea on your own time instead of, oh... your own time. Wolfram needs to take himself and his products less seriously.

  37. who fucking cares by circletimessquare · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    intellectual property is a house of cards built on higher and higher imaginary concepts and baseless arrogant demands on otherwise normal behavior, ignored outside of the western world, which supposedly champions freedom, but provides carte blanche to corporate entities to claim rights and priveledges over your cultural inheritance. i applaud the creativity of variosu lawyers as they extend the tentacles of what can be owned into higher and higher levels of cognitive output, but it means nothing more than shit, because its all founded on a flawed imoral premise that any of this output can be controlled and owned in the online world in the first place

    fuck it all. fuck the entire house of cards that is intellectual property. i'm beyond ignoring it, i'm outright hostile to the notion of intellectual property nowadays. we need some sort of outright sabotage on these fuckers. by which i mean: not real world violence, but outright purposeful disobedience to any of these notions of "i control this" when applied to material which can disseminated and consumed in digital, online form

    fuck this western corporate arrogance called intellectual property. its an immoral sham, and kind of a joke, that nayone expects you can control any of this

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:who fucking cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why don't you tell us how you *really* feel?

  38. Re:slashdot by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 1

    try clicking the links.

    --
    -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
  39. Re:6*9 by el3mentary · · Score: 1

    All your base are belong to them!

    --
    I reject your reality and substitute my own.
  40. Nothing new for Wolfram by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Informative

    Anybody who has used Wolfram's products, such as Mathematica, for more than a few versions, knows that they don't have, how shall I say this? a very enlightened view of the relationship between the party that sells a product and the party that buys that product.

    In fact, their user agreements have always been among the very worst in the software industry, that is, if you happen to believe that the consumer has any rights at all beyond the right to give money to the vendor.

    They've always been pretty hostile toward their customers.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
    1. Re:Nothing new for Wolfram by The_Wilschon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, it's hardly surprising, as Stephen Wolfram is a well known egomaniac who refuses to admit that anyone other than himself can possibly achieve anything. http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/reviews/wolfram/

      --
      SIGSEGV caught, terminating

      wait... not that kind of sig.
    2. Re:Nothing new for Wolfram by bcrowell · · Score: 1

      They've always been pretty hostile toward their customers.

      Yep. One of the most important experiences that made me stop using proprietary software was with Mathematica. I bought a copy of Mathematica and installed it on my mac. This was back in the 90's, so I was running MacOS 6 or something. I upgraded to MacOS 7, and Mathematica would no longer run. Called Wolfram, and they told me I'd have to pay for a new copy of Mathematica.

    3. Re:Nothing new for Wolfram by Brett+Buck · · Score: 1

      Anybody who has used Wolfram's products, such as Mathematica, for more than a few versions, knows that they don't have, how shall I say this? a very enlightened view of the relationship between the party that sells a product and the party that buys that product.

      In fact, their user agreements have always been among the very worst in the software industry, that is, if you happen to believe that the consumer has any rights at all beyond the right to give money to the vendor.

      They've always been pretty hostile toward their customers.

              Not exactly the best in terms of the *users* either. The Mathematica syntax, for some things, just makes you want to cry it's so unwieldy. If you used it all day long every day, maybe the compact way you can do things might be better, but if you aren't using it all the time its painful.

                Brett

    4. Re:Nothing new for Wolfram by rbarreira · · Score: 1

      Could you give some examples? Not that I'm doubting you, I'm just curious.

      --

      The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
    5. Re:Nothing new for Wolfram by mieses · · Score: 1

      And it's not clear that he has achieved anything himself (other than in business, perhaps).

      I wouldn't touch his API even if it can measure a 10 foot pole.

    6. Re:Nothing new for Wolfram by registrar · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Could you give some examples? Not that I'm doubting you, I'm just curious.

      I've been left without access to mathematica licenses on multiple occasions due to misunderstandings between Wolfram and my institution. Because Mathematica was my primary platform at the time, that meant days that I was unable to do or access my work.

      The first time that happened, I decided to learn an open platform; the second time, I migrated. In my projects, I now absolutely avoid writing core functionality in Mathematica.

      Another complaint: you can't discover how defaults work in some cases. As far as I can tell, setting things to "Automatic" means "proprietary and undescribed." I've asked Wolfram for details in one case, only to get a "we can't tell you" response.

      Oh, and being told off for filing bug reports is pretty unimpressive. I separately reported different manifestations of the same bug, separated by some time. I'd actually forgotten about the first report, but if they'd fixed the bug, the situation wouldn't have arisen. When I've submitted a bug report to open source projects, they have usually been along the lines of "this line is wrong, and this seems to be an acceptable fix."

      I think the arguments for open, modifiable, redistributable source code (that is guaranteed to retain those properties) are extremely strong. I.e. the GPL, probably v3. Once you know it well, Mathematica is a stunning programming language and library set, but I now don't care: as a whole, the platform has been unreliable for me.

    7. Re:Nothing new for Wolfram by speedbiker · · Score: 1

      So he's related to Joerg Schilling?

    8. Re:Nothing new for Wolfram by dotancohen · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You make a good point. If you are doing ground-breaking research that depends on computer calculations, how can you be sure that the results given to you by mathematica are accurate and not a bug? Reworking the calcualtions by hand defeats the purpose of using the software in the first place, if that is even possible (some physics simulations take weeks of _computer_time_ to compute).

      At least with open source computer algebra, one can verify the method used to compute the results.

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    9. Re:Nothing new for Wolfram by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Haha, good one!

  41. WolframAlpha says... by dgun · · Score: 1

    copyright | a document granting exclusive right to publish and sell literary or musical or artistic work

    So, would that output be literary, musical, or artistic?

    Meanwhile, the search term "a document granting exclusive right to publish and sell literary or musical or artistic work", produced 523 results on Google.

    I wonder if WolframAlpha just forgot to name the source?

    --
    FAQs are evil.
    1. Re:WolframAlpha says... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean the "Source information" link at the bottom of the results?

  42. Re:slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    try clicking the links.

    You must be new here.

  43. I don't worry.. by chord.wav · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Where I'm going, the law doesn't really apply...
    http://www44.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=ecstasy+synthesis

  44. Re:Oops! The Vulcan Academy cheer is now copyright by pigeon768 · · Score: 1

    They also own pi to 2000 digits.

  45. A New Kind of Wolfram by laburu · · Score: 3, Informative

    This whole "new kind of [whatever]" meme might be really funny if it weren't so sad -- not because Wolfram doesn't really think he is smarter than almost everybody else (he does), but because - reportedly - he can't be prevailed upon to care about what most other people think, let alone how his choices might affect them:

    Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp
    [...]
    From: Kent M Pitman <pit...@world.std.com>
    [...]
    Message-ID: <sfwr8dvbpz3.fsf@shell01.TheWorld.com>
    [...]
    I was in Pasadena at one point, visiting a friend at Caltech, and popped in to see Wolfram around the time he was gearing up to write SMP, I think. [...]
    He told me that Lisp was "inherently" (I'm pretty sure even after all this time that this was his exact word) 100 times slower than C and therefore an unsuitable vehicle. I tried to explain to him that this was implausible. [...]
    He in fact did not purport to be adequately competent on the matter of computation at the time but he pointed to a stack (literally) of books (I'd say about a foot high) including the Knuth books, the compiler book with the dragon on it, and a number of other really standard texts.
    He then said "I'm going to read these and then I'll know as much as you." (Again, I'm pretty sure even now that this is pretty close to an exact quote. But whether it's exact or not, what struck me was the incredible arrogance of the remark.) The point seemed debatable, but I didn't bother to debate it. [...]
    My real concern, of course, was not that he was using optimized data structures so much as that he seemed on target to reintroduce numerical error back into a world that we had worked hard to make 'exact' (Macsyma used bignums from Lisp) or at least 'arbitrarily exact' [...]
    There's a fine ethical line here between simply making a tool and actively promoting it, but I'll not expound on that in detail. Rather, I'll just say that this line concerned me. The problem I have, and had then, is that other users, not him, might NOT understand that this trade-off had been made and so might not be making an informed choice. [...]

    I think Wolfram's attitude evokes pity, but indignation seems to be a far more common response. He should really consider working on (or, if he's already done so, promoting) A New Kind of Wolfram; he might find it a terrific challenge, but the new kind of Stephen would probably get more recognition than the old kind.

    1. Re:A New Kind of Wolfram by omnichad · · Score: 1

      He can say that Lisp is slower than C, but then he goes and programs a search engine in Mathematica.

    2. Re:A New Kind of Wolfram by Brett+Buck · · Score: 1

      Exactly...

  46. Has anyone managed to do anything useful with it? by hairykrishna · · Score: 1

    Beyond their examples and a few symbolic calculus examples I haven't actually got it to return anything other than "I'm not sure what to do with your input"

    --
    "Physics is to math as sex is to masturbation." -R. Feynman
  47. Not a search engine... or yes? by brasselv · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yes, it does NOT search. But they sold it this way - or at least they played aggressively with the idea.
    While creating PR buzz around it, they introduced it like "not a Google killer", when nobody had any idea what the thing was (so they could introduce the concept just the way they wanted to, and they explicitely chose to introduce the Google benchmark, even if to negate it.) And they obviously KNEW where this approach would have led to, in people's mind.

    In other words. If I launch a new ecommerce platform and I create a buzz around "not an alternative to eBay", I am then driving on purpose people towards a comparison with eBay.

    On top, on interviews I read, they toyed with "talks" they were supposedly having with "major search engines" (one was in the NYT).

    So they get what they were fishing for...

    --
    "Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong." (Oscar Wilde)
  48. Copyright by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

    The legalese says that they claim copyright on the each results page and require attribution.

    How is a document generated by a computer program in response to an external users query an original work of authorship created by Wolfram? Sure, the computer program itself is, but that's a different issue. If its not, it isn't subject to copyright by Wolfram, and nothing in W|A's terms of service can make it so.

  49. /me isn't sure what to do with your input by laburu · · Score: 1

    Never mind the search results -- your "Angelina Jolie nude" search yielded something much more valuable. Behold the power of this incipient meme:

    (23:57:11) bob: hey baby, wanna cyber?

    (23:57:17) ***alice isn't sure what to do with your input

    (16:31:43) jack: i'll be in town this weekend and i may need a place to crash

    (16:31:43) ***joe isn't sure what to do with your input

    The possibilities are endless.

  50. Good Thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think the internet needs more "vouched-for" information like Wolfram-Alpha that one can cite in a study or paper. Trying to find out basic facts is tough and very shady on the internet. I also LOVE the way the pages are formatted- crisp, clean, contrasted colors, and easy to read. I think the "citation" stuff will go along the lines on other parts of Wolfram's site like their mathematical explanations: http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/tutorial/ConstrainedOptimizationExact.html **HAS ANYONE ACTUALLY BEEN ABLE TO READ (AND UNDERSTAND) NKS AND CAN EXPLAIN WHAT THE HELL IT IS??

  51. Re:slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Wolfram Alpha sucks anyways. Try looking for big tits on that site. Goes nowhere but the definition.

  52. finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www26.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1+cup+per+2+girls+in+liters+per+girl
    thank you wolfram, i never got my around that imperial system

  53. I tried Wolfram Alpha by selven · · Score: 1

    Can't even figure out what the "world's population per capita" is...

  54. Seems to have some serious math bugs too... by maxfresh · · Score: 1

    I decided to see what all the hype is about, so I tried a very simple trig identity "sin (x) cos (x)" to see what answer Wolfram would give, and I was surprised to see this output:

    1/2 sin(2x)
    Periodic in x with period 2pi <== This should be "Periodic in x with period pi" -- unless I'm terribly mistaken.

    Curiously, when you enter: 1/2 sin(2x) directly, it yields the correct answer: Periodic in x with period pi.

    I don't know how to account for this bug, but if it could be so wrong about something so basic, I wouldn't trust it for anything complex, and I hardly think that its results are worthy of citation.

    1. Re:Seems to have some serious math bugs too... by bunratty · · Score: 1

      Well, that function is periodic with a period of 2pi. It's also periodic with a period of pi. Technically, WA is correct. Not the best result, but still correct.

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
  55. Still can't copyright a fact. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The problem they face is an old one. It's not possible in the united states to copyright facts which is all they deliver. That's why in the United States anyone can publish a telephone directory as the numbers are facts. Most of the results returned by this search engine is facts with no enhancement. Plus in the fast majority of situations it's facts mined from other people's data, web pages, and web sites. As such no copyright for them applies on that material...

  56. Feynman's big mistake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Reportedly, Feynman heaped praise on Wolfram, thus showing Feynman to be a fallible human.

  57. Past Queries Used in Results by Mia'cova · · Score: 1

    I'm noticing that some queries pull data from your past queries. I previously queried for local weather. But now, when I query for "average world temperature" or somesuch, it's giving me results for local weather.

    It may be tricky to cite the query with a link when it relies on user data. Anyone finding other examples of your query history being used?

  58. Swine flu plot by jandoedel · · Score: 1

    A nice plot of the number of cases / deaths made by swine flu. http://www55.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=+swine+flu Alpha could be useful for getting plots like these, that are hard to find in newspapers (where they usually only mention the current amount, not how it evolves)

    1. Re:Swine flu plot by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      A nice plot of the number of cases / deaths made by swine flu. http://www55.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=+swine+flu

      Strangely, the "Totals as of May 14, 2009" table it presents there matches, in number of cases, the information shown on "Tuesday, May 19, 2009" row of the "Daily new reports for the world" table, rather than "Thursday, May 14, 2009" row as one would expect. It does, true, provide some pretty graphs, but its obviously doing something wrong with the data in at least one of the two tables. Nice presentation isn't worth anything if the system is mishandling or mislabelling data.

      And, of course, since it doesn't identify the sources of the data actually used in the result, you can't even do what you would do normally with an inaccurate non-primary source, and go to the original sources (note that the "source information" link describes itself as a "guide to sources of further information", and specifically disclaims any necessary connection between the listed sources and the specific result.)

  59. "Source Information" doesn't mean what you think by DragonWriter · · Score: 2, Informative

    If there's something that annoy me, it's unsourced calculations. If it's attributed to WA, then I can at least use the same query on WA and in turn see what WA used as sources for that specific query (under the "source information" link at the bottom of each page)

    You are making the easily understandable mistake of assuming that the "Source Information" link does, in fact, liest the sources of information used in the query. While you'd think that would be the case, if you actually read the disclaimer at the bottom of the popup list of sources, you would see that it specifically states that the information provided is "intended as a guide to sources of further information", and disclaims any necessary connection between the cited sources and any particular Wolfram|Alpha search result.

  60. Weell, weell, weell, what do we have here... by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

    A Wolfram! And all alone on on this dark site? My dark site?!
    Grabbing my statistical data for its "computational" engine?
    *grins*
    You see, I heard the birds twittering about you, Wolfram.
    Wanna know what they told me?
    *pulls professional killer gun, aka army of lawyers*
    Weeell... They told me, that you claim copyright on my data.
    Can you believe that?
    *cocks hammer solely for dramatic reason, aka takes legal action*
    You know I have terms on my data too, do you?
    And they say, that in case someone steals my data and claims copyright on it, that that one might get hurt really bad.
    You don't want to get hurt really bad, do you, Wolfram?

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
  61. Oh, one more question: by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

    I don't know... But... How are they going to prove that I took the data from their site? If it is physically possible for me to create them from other sources, they can't, can they. So the point is moot. Except for scientific work, where you have to state your sources, and where you can not make up your own sources on-the-fly. ^^

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
  62. you can quote people in a copyrighted work by sams67 · · Score: 1

    "So for you academics out there, be careful. Groklaw notes this is interesting considering some of its results quote 2001: A Space Odyssey or Douglas Adams. Claiming copyright on that material may be a bold move." You can copyright something if it quotes someone else - people do it all the time (*especially* academics). The question is whether it is (a) a "work" in the copyright law sense and (b) fair use of the material. I would posit that the W|A engine is putting together a document in response to a query. Short quotes are probably fair use. I'm not sure who the "creator" or the work is though :-) Interesting ...

  63. Re:Oops! The Vulcan Academy cheer is now copyright by dogmatixpsych · · Score: 1

    We used to chant that every Friday morning in calculus in high school. Man we were geeks!

  64. CYA? by hahn · · Score: 1

    Though I have no proof of this and Wolfram may prove me to be wrong, I get the feeling that most of the time ToS's are used to cover them in case they need it, rather than persecute people. I suspect if you use it to generate answers that you could otherwise get through Google, Wikipedia, or other means (books, magazines, audio, lectures), they would have a very hard time pursuing you. And if they did, it would kill their business.

    I would think the purpose of this is to cover them in case somebody finds a novel way of turning their computational engine into a cash cow. Well, good for whoever does that, but then again, they ARE piggybacking off the hard work of someone else - Wolfram. Therefore, Wolfram *SHOULD* profit/benefit from aforementioned cash cow. I doubt anyone's going to give them money of their own free will. This ToS gives them the legal means to enforce it. Of course, what they *should* get and what they end up getting is debatable and would depend on the cash cow and how much it relied on Wolfram. But of course, Wolfram as a company would like to put themselves in a position of power if such a situation arises rather than rely on the good will of others.

    I don't think they'd be stupid enough to pursue someone when their answer is another copyrighted source. Copyright is violated everyday all the time all across the web by blogs, Google, Wikipedia, etc, etc. In my view, it's really only a CYA move now and I think it's going to be a matter of time before it's completely ignored because too many cases of unpursued or accepted copyright violations will come up as precedent.

    --
    "The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well."
  65. DieDieDie by zaivala · · Score: 1

    This is exactly why so many left Geocities back in 1997/98 when Yahoo purchased them -- the new Yahoo ToS claimed that Yahoo owned all content on Geocities webpages. I don't think Wolfram is going to get away with this, but I'm sure a lot of lawyers are going to get rich.

  66. I have a deeply held belief by AnAdventurer · · Score: 1

    ....that I am not held to the TOS of anything I use. I just don't care, I don't read them, I don't follow them and so far it has worked out pretty well for me. I suspect most people are the same. I think that it's silly that so many products that are easily available and many of them are free have long and basically unreadable TOS. I know they are enforced only for the exceptional case and not in any sort of universal way. My belief goes like this; if I don't read your TOS they don't apply to me. I would like to try this in court, frankly I don't think any cares about what I am doing that much. Well, time will tell.

    --
    6.8SPC TR of 550, l xwind at 6, drift rt at 26" drops 77". AT has 503 ft-lbs at 1403 fps. FT 0.86
  67. Relax, it's just link bait by freejung · · Score: 1

    I think the primary purpose of this TOS is simply to encourage people to link to Wolfram|Alpha. Note the part about how it would be best to link to the specific result -- keep in mind that from Google's perspective, such a link creates another "page" on the site which Google can index, thus giving Wolfram|Alpha more opportunities to rank well in Google.

    I think this is an SEO tactic, and not much more. I use much the same terms on my site. It'll probably work, too. Look for Wolfram|Alpha results to start beating Wiki in the Google SERPs.

    As such, I doubt they'll be particularly vigorous about enforcing it, as long as they get lots of links and violators keep a fairly low profile.

  68. Re:slashdot by Hal_Porter · · Score: 5, Funny

    http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=(sinc+(x)+*+sinc+(y))+

    I'm sure you could do better if you had more time.

    --
    echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
  69. Wolframalpha on Norway by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, okay. According to wolframalpha they're an authorative source. If I search for Norway language - or just Norway - they claim the following language distribution:

    North Saami (48%) | Romani Tavringer (19%) | Finnish Kven (16%) | Norwegian sign language (13%) | Romani Vlax (1.6%) | Lule Saami (1.6%) | South Saami (0.96%)

    So, this is according to wolframalpha, the authorative source. It is, of course, completely wrong.

    The main language in Norway is, surprise surprise, Norwegian. North Saami is spoken by less than 2% of the population (probably less than 1%).

  70. 42 by muzip · · Score: 1

    Seems they haven't forgotten to reply the question "what is the meaning of life?" in a geeky way

    1. Re:42 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hand in your geek card, you are not geeky enough to ask the question correctly.

      http://www55.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=What+is+the+answer+to+life%2C+the+universe%2C+and+everything%3F

  71. Those who hold the keys... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Those who hold the keys may use them either to lock or open doors, but never for both at the same time.

    Personally, I think WALy (hey, I like that.. Wally) will use the keys to keep the doors open.

    -J

  72. Alpha can't find answers from Wolfram's pages! by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 1

    I also tried various approaches to things it *should* be good at, but once again, not very impressive.

    Same experience here. I tried "semiderivative of cos(x)" and even "semiderivative of c". It claimed not to understand, and it suggested things like "derivative of cos(x)" or "cos(x)" as related searches. These suggested searches, of course, resulted in nice summaries of the expected sort.
    However, the "semiderivative of c" should be a doddle for Alpha, since the answer can be found in Wolfram's own web site at http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Semiderivative.html
    I'm only slightly impressed (for the moment, anyway).

    --
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
  73. OK, nobody uses Google. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    Lets see how many ads they can sell then.

    People doing searches are the most important costumers Google has, even if the don't play a single penny.

    Clearly many people out there, in spite of being sitting in front of a bloody computer, perhaps for many years, can't grasp how some business models , based on the availability of cheap computers and fast network connections, work.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  74. Strange to hear that coming from GL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If it were Apple, PJ would be saying "It's their site, so they should be allowed to put whatever they want. If you don't like it, you can fight it in court or just not go there, but they're plainly saying what their terms are, so it's fine."

    I gave up GL when PJ wouldn't see the hypocrisy in her works (sterling as they are) against bad actions by corporations that WEREN'T Apple and her stance at the same thing being done by Apple (like Apple suing Pystar for copyright breach and DMCA clauses where they don't apply).

  75. Re:slashdot by dotancohen · · Score: 1

    I prefer tits in pairs:
    http://wolframalpha.com/input/?i=(sinc+(x)+*+sinc+(abs(y-2)))

    (move the image off the axises, then mirror the other side)

    --
    It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
  76. obligatory whedon reference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm sorry, I don't trust any legalese (or software) from a Senior Partner of Wolfram & Hart!

  77. 42 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=life%2C+the+universe%2C+and+everything

  78. Google ToS are Worse Than You Think by DownWithMedia1.0 · · Score: 1

    Your claim that Google's ToS are limited to "dont use it to break the law" is absurd and factually incorrect. Google reserves the right to own much of the content that you produce through their services, such as gMail and your search terms. You can verify this yourself at http://www.google.com/privacy. The MS ToS are indeed odd and more restrictive. But to simply pretend that Google is a friendly giant, these days, is naive and absurd.

    1. Re:Google ToS are Worse Than You Think by DownWithMedia1.0 · · Score: 1

      For example, Google retains the right to "[maintain] and [process] your Gmail account and its contents to provide the Gmail service to you and to improve our services. The Gmail service includes relevant advertising and related links based on the IP address, content of messages and other information related to your use of Gmail." For those of you who are not informed on privacy law, in order to read someone's private data you must have some ownership rights over it. This means that Google owns the CONTENT of your emails, and maintains the right to read them at will. This is hardly "dont use it to break the law."

  79. Re:where is the soul by ApproachingLinux · · Score: 1

    agree that in its present form, it's useless. try the subject query "where is the soul" in wolfram and google. google tries to answer the question. wolfram thinks it's in south korea.

  80. That means Steven Wolfram is a Bond villian by leftie · · Score: 1

    -British
    -egomaniac
    -trying to corner the worlds markets with an evil plot

    Yep. Steven Wolfram meets all the requirements of a Bond Movie villian.

    Keep your eyes out for Jaws. He should be popping up chewing on Sergey Brin any second now.

  81. apple/day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
  82. And so by nickthisname · · Score: 1

    How many people would actually break out of their habit of hitting the Google bar to toss these nitwits a bone?

  83. Re:slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Have a nice day -> tits

  84. Not very useful anyways by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Having put W|A through a somewhat arbitrary test, I'm inclined to say it lacks usefulness. Type in "How High the Moon", and it gives you facts for the movies "How High" and "Moon". Check the release date on that second one. How long ago? It doesn't give you any reference to the song, or any facts about astronomy.

    Or try "What is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow?"-- it makes you rephrase it, but eventually comes up with an answer. A smarter machine would have rephrased the question itself.

    However, "What is the duration of an orgasm?", "Who won the English Football Cup in 1949?", and "What is the speed of greased lightning?" all return the same answer: Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input.-- which is probably copyrighted. I claim fair use.

    Now these are only marginally more useful than the porn search mentioned above, but I invite you to try getting useful results of your own from W|A. Alpha, indeed! I figure in a year, we'll get a marginally useful Wolfram|Beta, and a year after that, Wolfram|1.0, followed a week later by Wolfram|1.0.1-- if it's still commercially viable by that time. I have my doubts.

  85. Just because you claim copyright... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...doesn't mean you win an infringement claim. I'm reminded of that website that claims your phone number may be copyrighted. I've forgotten the URL, but it claims to hold copyright to a variety of melodies, possibly including your own phone #! It invites you to enter your number to see if it's copyrighted. I entered 000-000-0000, and sure enough, the site claims it's copyrighted! Then it demands a license fee, which you can arrange through that very site. I know there must be someone out there dumb enough to have paid the fee.