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Better Tools For Disabled Geeks?

layabout writes "We've seen tremendous advances in user interfaces over the past few years. Unfortunately, those UIs and supporting infrastructure exclude the disabled. In the same timeframe there has been virtually no advance in accessibility capabilities. It's the same old sticky keys, unicorn stick, speech recognition, text-to-speech that kind-of, sort-of, works except when you need to work with with real applications. Depending on whose numbers you use, anywhere from 60,000 to 100,000 keyboard users are injured every year — some temporarily, some permanently. In time, almost 100% of keyboard users will have trouble typing and using many if not all mobile computing devices. My question to Slashdot: Given that some form of disability is almost inevitable, what's keeping you from volunteering and working with geeks who are already disabled? By spending time now building the interfaces and tools that will enable them to use computers more easily, you will also be ensuring your own ability to use them in the future." Follow the link for more background on this reader's query.
This question is aimed mostly at the kind of disability we are susceptible to and I have been living with for the past 15 years. Even though we have speech recognition, it doesn't solve any problem except writing text. There have been a couple of attempts at making speech recognition more useful to programmers [0], but they have failed. The needs are clear:

[1] A working full-vocabulary, continuous recognition system on Linux.

[2] Tools that don't expect you to "speak the keyboard."

[3] Tools that let you edit as well as create code.

So why don't more geeks work on securing their own future, or at the very least, work to help their fellow geeks to stay on the economic ladder?

[0] VoiceCode and VR-Mode: VoiceCode or is an amazing piece of work. It makes it possible for a disabled programmer to generate Python code very quickly. Unfortunately, it does not solve the editing problem. Even more unfortunately, it's hand-wearingly complicated to set up and get working. VR-Mode makes it possible to use Naturally Speaking's "Select and Say" mode in Emacs — that is, if you can get it to work. It seems to have drifted into non-functionality as Emacs has moved forward.

[1] Naturally Speaking works well, is reasonably cheap, and works somewhat under Wine today. If we can make it work reliably under Wine, it solves the problem in months rather than decades. Other tools such as Sphinx 1-4 are great IVR systems if you have a vocabulary and grammar under 15,000 words. In contrast, Naturally Speaking's working vocabulary is in the 100,000-word range. Any disabled user will choose Naturally Speaking because it works so much better than the nearest alternative. We have people who are injured now and need these tools. They can't afford to wait 10 years or more for an OSS solution.

[2] "Speaking the keyboard" refers to speech user interfaces developed by people who don't use speech recognition. They expect you to say too much, which creates a vocal form of RSI — see [3]. Listen to what disabled users do, not to what you think they should speak.

[3] See VoiceCode in [0]. Unfortunately, today's tools are only for writing code, not correcting code. Code correction is a very different process and must be spoken in a different way: "change index" instead of "search forward left bracket leave mark search forward right bracket copy region." This is also an example of "speaking the keyboard."

228 comments

  1. Cite please by HotNeedleOfInquiry · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Depending on whose numbers you use, anywhere from 60,000 to 100,000 keyboard users are injured every year â" some temporarily, some permanently. In time, almost 100% of keyboard users will have trouble typing" Cite please?

    --
    "Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...
    1. Re:Cite please by Vectronic · · Score: 0

      I'd be interested in seeing some sort of document too for the "60-100 thousand", do nurses really ask everyone if they use a keyboard? I think any figure would be pulled out of thin air, nevermind if it's worldwide or US only, or France or wherever this guy is from. As for the latter, does there really need to be one? I mean we all get old, we all die, I'd say that's "trouble typing".

    2. Re:Cite please by BobNET · · Score: 5, Funny

      In time, almost 100% of keyboard users will have trouble typing" Cite please?

      It's hard to type when you're dead. Therefore I state that, in time, exactly 100% of keyboard users will have trouble typing.

    3. Re:Cite please by GrpA · · Score: 4, Funny

      I believe this Wikipedia article covers that final statistic...

      Or there's this explanation to cover the period up until then.

      GrpA

      --
      Enjoy science fiction? "Turing Evolved" - AI, Mecha, Androids and rail-gun battles. What more could you want?
    4. Re:Cite please by iamdrscience · · Score: 5, Funny

      I'm immortal, you insensitive clod!

    5. Re:Cite please by artor3 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Then you're why the summary said "almost 100%"!

    6. Re:Cite please by MichaelSmith · · Score: 3, Funny

      I see you are getting an early start on your plan to insult the entire universe. Let me know when you get down to the S's.

    7. Re:Cite please by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      There can be only one.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    8. Re:Cite please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This may sound dumb Is death not a 100% fact?
      good enough citation if you ask me.

    9. Re:Cite please by JWSmythe · · Score: 4, Interesting

          That's also assuming a fixed computer operator base, and not including in new additions (high school interns and recent graduates) and attrition to management (I don't send emails, my secretary does that for me) and retirement.

          Being that computers have been heavily in the workplace for say over 20 years, and typewriters for even longer, I'd say the warning should be taken just as seriously as the OSHA training that you get (don't stand on top of a tippy ladder, on one foot, holding live wires, over a puddle while drinking hard liquor and smoking a joint) and the frequently included warning of repetitive stress disorder on keyboards and mice. I particularly enjoyed one training where it was clear that we should go outside once an our and look at things far in the distance, to avoid eye strain. Good luck with taking that many breaks in a day without getting fired. :)

          I will admit, I have suffered pain from keyboards. I couldn't grasp anything with my right hand for about 2 days because of typing too much. (don't read anything dirty into that, please). It was on a Friday, so I did almost everything left handed. It was difficult to start my car, and shift gears (ya, I'm in America). Oddly enough, most doorknobs are ambidextrous, and most toilets flush from the left side. :) By Monday, the pain was gone.

          I've suffered worse pain from working power tools and hammers. Oddly enough, enough hammering will send some pretty good stress through your hands. It hurts worse if you misjudge your finger to hammer head distance difference. :) I haven't made that mistake in years.

          Keyboard stress? Bah. There are a lot of worse pains you can suffer. Unless you drop a server on your head (or have an unbolted rack fall on you), you haven't seen it. I knew one guy who seriously hurt himself because they were moving an enclosed sever cabinet. It started to fall. The guy on one side couldn't do anything (it was falling away from him). The guy on the other side tried to catch it by himself. He lived. He was hurt. He was very much not happy. He did say if it ever happened again, he'd jump out of the damned way. :)

          I've learned over the years, lots of people don't know how to judge levels of pain, because they haven't experienced high levels of pain. "Oh my god, this is the worst pain I've ever had" only means you haven't felt worse yet. I've seen grown men cry over stuff that my little daughter (2 years old) shakes off like nothing happened. She hurts herself and I tell her "that doesn't hurt", and she stops crying. Really, it didn't. She was walking barefooted in the house today, and accidentally closed an outside door on her toe. I heard a little noise from her, but that was it. She opened the door, removed her foot, and closed it again without the obstruction. :) It scraped the skin on her toe enough so I know it hurt a little (probably 2 on a scale of 1 to 10). We washed it, doctored her up, and she ran off to play. Later she pointed it out to me and said "owie." She just wanted the attention of it, she wasn't really complaining.

          She takes after me though. I've cut myself pretty bad in various ways over the years (I wasn't a gentle child), and doctored myself up without the need to whine about it. No infection, no lost parts, no problem.

        I think my finger hurts from flipping people off. Can I get workers comp and a voice operated home theater system? I don't think I can work the remote control without re-injuring myself? :)

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    10. Re:Cite please by AnonGCB · · Score: 1

      I don't think I'll be too worried about voice recognition software after I die.

      --
      http://CryoLANparty.com/ A lan I'm staff on!
    11. Re:Cite please by UncleTogie · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I particularly enjoyed one training where it was clear that we should go outside once an hour and look at things far in the distance, to avoid eye strain. Good luck with taking that many breaks in a day without getting fired. :)

      At my shop, I justify it by not taking a lunch. 6 minutes to smoke a cig once an hour, while looking around the landscape * 8 hours = 48 minutes, which means my boss gets an extra 12 minutes a day.

      The cig smoking isn't the healthiest part, but it could be easily replaced by walking around the building once or twice. Either way, my boss gets an extra 12 minutes, so he has no cause to complain, and I get no eyestrain after 30 years in front of computers...

      --
      Don't tell me to get a life. I'm a gamer; I have LOTS of lives!
    12. Re:Cite please by Kral_Blbec · · Score: 1

      Not really. The only people who will have problems typing are those who advance into old age or some form of degenerative disease. Those who die from trauma or acute disease will never experience such problems. You can be typing along at 100 wpm and get shot in the head. I'd say that that person never experienced any problem typing. Including death in and of itself as a difficulty doesnt count.

    13. Re:Cite please by SL+Baur · · Score: 1

      "Depending on whose numbers you use, anywhere from 60,000 to 100,000 keyboard users are injured every year Ã" some temporarily, some permanently. In time, almost 100% of keyboard users will have trouble typing" Cite please?

      Sounds to me like the same kind of statistics used to prove the evils of smoking.

      Or better, if you are not allowed to smoke at your desk/keyboard, but are forced to take smoke breaks (that also rest your hands), then smoking is actually good for you.

      I find switching mouse hands from right to left, left to right periodically is also a good stress reliever.

      I *did* start to develop signs of something in the mid 1990s - sharp pain shooting up through my arm when I handled the mouse. Switching mouse hands made it go away and it's never come back.

      If you are suffering at a keyboard/mouse, it's definitely a workflow issue and not something that is inevitable.

    14. Re:Cite please by layabout · · Score: 4, Informative

      http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Repetitive+strain+injuries+stretch+higher-a018341055 when you work through the reports, the 300k number works out to about 100k for IT. while this report is old, nothing has changed to drop the rate. uk reports are more current http://download.microsoft.com/documents/uk/hardwar/Ergonomics_and_Repetitive_Strain_Injury.pdf As for the near 100%, think arthritis, medication induced tremors, loss of flexibility as you age normally or via trauma. It all adds up to loss of hand function.

    15. Re:Cite please by B1oodAnge1 · · Score: 2, Funny

      You think your ghostly digits will work on a keyboard?

      I envy your optimism. O.o

      --
      RUGBYRUGBYRUGBY
    16. Re:Cite please by layabout · · Score: 2, Informative

      http://download.microsoft.com/documents/uk/hardware/Ergonomics_and_Repetitive_Strain_Injury.pdf http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Repetitive+strain+injuries+stretch+higher-a018341055 http://www.rsi-therapy.com/statistics.htm I think the UK stats are probably the best stats to go by. Most of the RSI injury rate information in the United States is based on the last clean census of injuries which was roughly 1994-1995. Unfortunately, since that time states with a large chicken processing workforce, have either stopped counting RSI statistics or have merge them into some other heading making difficult if not impossible to track down what the actual injury rates are. It's amazing the kind of government service you can purchase if your name is Tyson or Perdue. I know this sounds kind of conspiratorial but, up here in New England, the same thing happened with glass cutters and textile workers. Remember, programmers are nothing more than a clean form of blue-collar labor that can be replaced by cheaper labor in a heartbeat. As for the near 100% comment, well as we age, we lose ability. Since everybody ages, is a good chance you will spend decades being unable to use the tools and toys you use today. There's a better chance that the twentysomethings 30 years from now will be inventing all of these cool things that you will be excluded from.

    17. Re:Cite please by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      I don't think I'll be too worried about voice recognition software after I die.

      I'd think at that point it might still be useful if the software recognized the word "BRAINS", at least.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    18. Re:Cite please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about undead keyboard users?

    19. Re:Cite please by masshuu · · Score: 1

      Now i picture a Zombie saying brains, and the computer translating that into boobs and googles it

      --
      O.o
    20. Re:Cite please by Plunky · · Score: 2, Informative

      I particularly enjoyed one training where it was clear that we should go outside once an our and look at things far in the distance, to avoid eye strain. Good luck with taking that many breaks in a day without getting fired. :)

      I've worked a Data Entry job in the UK (for a year and half) where I was staring at a screen and typing continuously at 10,000+ kph and we were required to log out and have a 10 minute eye break after every 60 minutes of work. Actually, the rules said that we just had to have a break from the keyboard/screen and could carry out other tasks but we were in a dedicated data entry centre so there was no other tasks available and it was a general break.

      It could be that your work doesn't involve intensive keyboard activity actually requiring a separate break (eg programming work can involve 'thinking' while you look at the plants) but if your OHSA training says you should have a break from the keyboard/screen then you really should. Just do something else and if they don't have anything else for you to do then take a piss. Even in the USA can they fire you for doing what you are told? I can't see that you would be required to damage yourself for a daily wage..

    21. Re:Cite please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Immortal and an insult. Wowbagger is that you?

    22. Re:Cite please by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      I particularly enjoyed one training where it was clear that we should go outside once an our and look at things far in the distance, to avoid eye strain. Good luck with taking that many breaks in a day without getting fired.

      If you get your work done what's the problem? Seems like a case of measuring what's easy to measure, rather than what matters. See also KLOC/day.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    23. Re:Cite please by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

          That may be enough to get the boss in trouble, depending on the labor laws in your state. I'm pretty sure in an 8 hour shift, you are mandated to take two 15 minute breaks and one 30 minute break. I'm pretty sure you can't segment them up ad-hoc.

          I usually take more than the 3 legal breaks, but I usually make up for it by plenty of extra work hours. Even the smoke breaks are to think about a problem I'm on, or talk to someone else about the problem. Then again, some of them are just to have a cigarette and destress for a few minutes so I can think clearly. It takes me from being "most likely to go postal" to "least likely to go postal, and most likely to accomplish the task first and correctly." :)

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    24. Re:Cite please by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Being that computers have been heavily in the workplace for say over 20 years, and typewriters for even longer, I'd say the warning should be taken just as seriously

      The article said X number of keyboard users become disabled every year. It did not say X number of keyboard users become disabled as a direct result of using said keyboard. Nice rant though.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    25. Re:Cite please by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

          I found the bathroom is a great place to take a break. I can take a 20 minute break in there, and if I ate at the cafe downstairs, the odor will linger in there for an hour. :) There's no question what I was doing, even if I spent most of the time reading my email on my phone. :)

          I like making fun of the cafe food, but the owners are really nice people. If you ever have the disfortune of working in that building, you'd agree. I say disfortune because I can count the number of happy employees in the whole building on one hand, and still hold onto a cup of coffee. :) There are two categories of employees in that building. Those who hate their jobs, and those who hate their jobs and will smile and lie about it 99% of the time. Those with a financial interest in the companies don't count, but even most of them aren't happy.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    26. Re:Cite please by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      You need one of these

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    27. Re:Cite please by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

          At my old job that was always a skewed number. 75% of the time, I was fixing other people's code, so a "wc -l" of the original and resulting file would frequently result in a negative number. The remaining 25% of the time, I was writing original code and then optimizing it down to the minimal number of lines required to accomplish it correctly. I always estimated for every 100 lines of code in the end product, there were maybe 500 lines written. That was, of course, without a good plan going into it. I wasn't always provided with a good plan, so the requirements would change frequently while I was writing it. And yes, I complain every time someone changes the requirements while I'm writing the code, especially if I had just completed that part.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    28. Re:Cite please by Lennie · · Score: 1

      That atleast would be _very_ close to a 100%

      --
      New things are always on the horizon
    29. Re:Cite please by markringen · · Score: 1

      here i thought Omnipotent beings weren't allowed to participate in society?

    30. Re:Cite please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm so glad you made that point!

      My brother is high in the corporate ladder for a major IT company. He has a home office and flies to far off locations about once a month. I laugh when he complains about job related pain. (to be fair, he does work long hours and puts up with the mental stress of dealing with morons that can't figure out how to move office equipment from one floor to another)

      Why do I laugh at him? I like working with my hands and decided to forgo computers and do auto collision repair. Real pain from work injuries is something he'll never know. "My hands hurt from typing so much..." Bah!...wait till you have a piece of welding slag bounce into your shoe and your sock catches on fire before you can get your shoe off!

      We laugh at these cubicle idiots whose worse injury in their life is a paper cut. How many acronyms are there for cubicle related job problems? I'm not saying what they do isn't important and may have some side effects but SUCK IT UP PEOPLE!
      I spend they day in the Florida heat, working with dangerous tools, heavy parts and equipment and dangerous chemicals. Along with making good money at the end of the day I have the satisfaction of accomplishing something physical. There is a nice sense of satisfaction when you've taken that car with a crushed quarter panel and have it cut out, replaced, rewelded and ready for the paint shop before you go home

    31. Re:Cite please by laejoh · · Score: 0

      Indeed... According to this graph we have to doubt his numbers...

    32. Re:Cite please by Amouth · · Score: 1

      are you referring to the /. crowd as "society"?

      watch out.. you many be spreading false hope

      --
      '...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
    33. Re:Cite please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cigs are one of the biggest threats to your eye sight. Think about an old smokers skin then thing about their retina.

    34. Re:Cite please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... Good luck with taking that many breaks in a day without getting fired. :)...

      The smokers seem to have no problem getting that many breaks in a day, don't see why you shouldn't be able to do the same.

    35. Re:Cite please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Keyboard stress? Bah. There are a lot of worse pains you can suffer. "

      While having your hand hurt for 2 days is no fun, try having your whole arms, elbows, wrists, fingers, neck and shoulders hurt, sometimes to the point where you can't do anything, and even sitting or laying is uncomfortable, for years, not days. RSI is a very serious problem with many people, please don't belittle it by shaking it off saying those people don't know what pain is. Your 2 days of annoyance due to your sore hand is incomparable to what people with true RSI experience. Constant pain for years is much different, and can't be compared to short single instances of pain.

    36. Re:Cite please by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

          You know, it's funny. I primarily do IT work, but I've done a lot of other things in the past. I grew up on a small farm in Florida, so I know (and lived) the heat.

          I can't say that I've caught myself on fire while welding or cutting, but I've definitely burnt myself. Ya, nothing wakes you up more than an unseen piece of hot metal (cause it wasn't bright enough to see through the welding mask). When I was younger, I made the mistake of arc welding a trailer together, wearing shorts, T-shirt, welding mask and gloves. It didn't dawn on me that the arc is really bright, and my arms were sunburned from it. Well, just from the top of the gloves to the bottom of my sleeves. :)

          I'd also bought an old van for a couple hundred bucks. The entire roof line was rusted (like, you could see through it at most points), so I cut the roof off, and then the sides to make a pickup truck out of it. There were more than a few pieces of red hot mystery metal flying around. BTW, it's a neat idea when you're 18, but I don't strongly suggest it for daily use.

          I can weld, but I'll never claim to do as nice as job as you seasoned professionals. I used to make a decent bead, and I've seen a lot of commercially done bad welds, so I can spot a bad weld. I learned the hard way, it takes some decent skill to weld a roll cage into a car. :) Most of the welding I did was industrial type work, where it didn't need to be pretty, it needed to be strong. A nice bead was important. Something perfect that could be painted over was never my goal.

          I have to say, I don't like the pain from working on an old nasty car, where a wrench slips that you can't even see where you're working. It's a very unsettling feeling to feel it, then snake your arms out of where you were working just to find everything from your elbow to fingertips black with 20 years of road grime and engine grease, to see blood coming out of that mess. You know you have to scrub it to get it clean, and it's not going to feel good.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    37. Re:Cite please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice to hear that smoking instead of lunch is good for your eyes. Hopefully the rest of your body understands that.

    38. Re:Cite please by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

          I've suffered constant pain for years from a back injury caused by a car accident. Some days I can't walk. Some days, I can't even roll over to turn off the alarm clock without help. Most days, I'm fine with proper treatment. Trust me, needing to keep a supply of muscle relaxers and a huge bottle of ibuprofen on my bedside table isn't the way I want to live life. But I know for a fact that my pain isn't as bad as some people live through every day. I know a very nice lady who's been through multiple surgeries and has multiple implants due to a spinal fracture. Most of the time when well treated she's happy. Some days she's miserable.

          My bad days probably rank as a 5 on the 1-10 pain scale. Her good days probably rank a 4, and bad days closer to 8. :( Some days I wish I could trade her places. She doesn't deserve to live in such pain. She's a really nice person. We both have faith that someday the treatment she's going through will make her better, and she'll walk again. For now, she has no motor control for the lower half of her body.

          Really, how bad is that RSI injury?

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    39. Re:Cite please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Squeaky wheel gets the criticism.

    40. Re:Cite please by beerbear · · Score: 1

      Keyboard stress? Bah. There are a lot of worse pains you can suffer.

      As a general rule, don't downplay other people's health problems, especially if you never had it yourself. People don't like it.
      And no, two days of one numb hand does not count as RSI.
      Seriously. RSI is A LOT more than just pain in the hands, has a very diverse set of causes, affects the whole body, and causes a whole bag of other health problems, a lot of them psychological by nature. As an added bonus, everybody and his mom either thinks you are fake, because you don't look sick and the docs don't "find anything" (you gotta ask the right docs who know what to look for), or think you're a softie, or proposes a one-stop solution that doesn't even begin to address the complex issue that is RSI.
      Been there, done that, got it more or less under control now (note: that is not the same as healed or pain free, but as good as it gets). But I really, really don't want to go there again.

      --
      Hold my beer and watch this!
    41. Re:Cite please by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

      ... and what if I'm downplaying my own pains? Knuckles that feel like their exploding from inside? Tendons in the back of my hands that swell and then painfully pop out of position, leaving them where I can see a lump in the back of my hand until I convince it to go back where it belongs? Wrist pain that feels like a screwdriver is going through it? Forearms where the muscles controlling the fingers feel like they were pulled from my arm, and slopped back in with some high acid glue? Shoulders that grind like they're full of dirt? Upper back and neck pain where you wish someone would let you out of the vice that's pulling your muscles in ways they shouldn't?

          Still, it's not as bad as say falling off a motorcycle at 40mph on a rock road, or a concussion from bouncing my head off a steering wheel, or 3rd degree burns from molten things that should be in contact with any part of your body.

          How about climbing in a 150 degree attic and moving fiberglass batting just to find some is really loose and throws a cloud of fiberglass particles that you have the choice of not breathing for the next 5 minutes while you make your way out of the attic or breathing and being in severe pain. As you're struggling to breathe just from the temperature, particles are sucked around the side of your mask, and now a bloody coughing storm as you feel your lungs shredded from the inside.

          Those are all bad. There are worse. Much worse.

          When they say "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger", they are right. When you begin learning real pain, and those inconsequential pains suddenly become so much less.

          But, back to worse, not all pain is physical. Have you ever woken up seeing a dead family member that you couldn't save? Reliving that moment over and over for years, always just as hopeless to save them as the day it happened? Reassurances from the paramedics, doctors, family, and friends help just a little. They don't help the pain, but they help where there's no blame. I'm only beginning to understand the pain of people with PTSD. I wish I didn't need to, I'm just thankful that I haven't seen some of the things they have.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    42. Re:Cite please by evan_arrrr! · · Score: 1

      Sounds like you need some marijuana.

    43. Re:Cite please by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

          A few folks have told me that. Without any admission of previous occurrences, we'll suffice it to say that I considered the path of medical marijuana, but within 15 minutes, I'll be asleep for 3 hours. So, for stoners I've known, I was usually the designated driver. :) I have no problem with it, it just doesn't have the safe effect on me as it does for them. Doctor prescribed carisoprodol and OTC ibuprofen handle my daily aches and pains pretty well. At least as much as I don't need to constantly stretch to attempt to relieve my pains. We don't have to go into my medical history, but suffice it to say I've damaged myself well enough over the years that there are plenty of pains (2 to 6 on a 1-10 scale, depending on the day, without treatment). I'd still take these pains over some of the real pain that I've experienced over the years.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    44. Re:Cite please by owndao · · Score: 1

      Keyboard stress? Bah.

      I don't mean to sound like I'm preaching but I have to respond to that. Some background: I have experienced pain to the level that it caused be to lose consciousness several times despite my trying to stay conscious. This was from a broken back. I rank that as an 9 on the 10 scale with 10 being enough to kill me outright. I have a fairly rare form of arthritis where my body mistakes my tendons, joints, etc. for disease and therefore tries its hardest to destroy. With opiate painkillers and a cocktail that suppresses my immune system response across the board I range between a 3 and 5, 24-7. With this as my experience I would have to question many peoples' judgement of just how bad pain is. For example, I would rather go through the level 9 pain of being transfered from gurney to x-ray that caused me to pass out than go through the constant 3 to 5, 24-7. When you know the pain is going to stop at some point helps reduce the agony. Typing this on the keyboard doesn't hurt much more than my quiescent pain but by tomorrow, in reaction to having done this my pain will be up in the 4-5 range. When you say

      I couldn't grasp anything with my right hand for about 2 days because of typing too much.

      you are only getting a short taste of what people with more severe illnesses are experiencing. Many will live with a high level of pain, as you describe, constantly or for as long as they continue to have a keyboard in their life. We won't be hearing from too many of these people on Slashdot as they would certainly have to be masochistic. As for teaching your daughter to not report pain -- careful there. Pain and our responses to it both mentally and physically are a complex subject.

      --
      Be as you would have the world become.
    45. Re:Cite please by beerbear · · Score: 1

      Look, I'm not gonna race you to the bottom and play the who-has-the-shittier-life game. Seems like you'd win, in any case. :-)
      And I'm not saying RSI is the worst thing that has ever happened to anybody, ever, either.
      All I'm saying is: If you think, RSI is just a numbness in your hands that you can shrug off, you're wrong. And your original post still very much reads like that, even though I now know better.

      --
      Hold my beer and watch this!
    46. Re:Cite please by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      It's hard to type when you're dead. Therefore I state that, in time, exactly 100% of keyboard users will have trouble typing.

      Not necessarily. All people who are dead will have trouble typing. All keyboard users who are also people and who are also dead will have trouble typing (this would exclude keyboard-using kittens beloved of calendar makers, but I leave open the question of whether it excludes keyboard-using chimpanzees. Or orangutans, if they're actually our closest relatives.) However, if there are any non-keyboard users who are also people and are also dead, then they too will have trouble typing. So, the number of dead people who will have trouble typing is greater than the number of keyboard users who will have trouble typing, i.e. more than 100% of keyboard users will have trouble typing when they're dead.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    47. Re:Cite please by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

      As for teaching your daughter to not report pain -- careful there. Pain and our responses to it both mentally and physically are a complex subject.

          I'm teaching her to not misreport it for attention. I listen every time they say "ouch", but I've seen so many kids say "Ouch" and hold out their finger (elbow, or whatever) and get huge amounts of attention for nothing, they're going to keep doing it.

          I was doing some work this week, and complaining a little. My right index finger and thumb hurt. Well, not enough to stop me from typing. :) I've been doing some household construction for a friend. The knuckle is swollen, and my thumb has a spot where I obviously developed a blister and kept working. Now it's scabbed over. :) Still, when I was done working, I did the sarcastic "ouch", and my friends thought I was joking since I went on with what I was doing before. One of them noticed the torn blister. I didn't really pay any attention to it, other than washing it off. I've been trying to milk that though, but since I'm obviously fine (like, I kept doing things normally), no one fell for it. The only thing I couldn't do was open a soda bottle with my right hand, even though I kept trying. :)

          She had a UTI recently, and she had to go to the hospital to be catheterized. It's hard to get a 2 year old to pee in a cup, so that's the other option. She really really didn't like it. She screamed. I held her hands and upper body so she couldn't go anywhere. I'm sure it hurt, but I kept telling her it would be ok. When they were done, I just cradled her until the sting went away. That's all I could do. There's no way I could say "that doesn't hurt, be quiet", because I knew it did. She's only about 2 1/2, so when she screams or cries, it's usually for a good reason, not because she wants attention. She knows she can just be cute and playful and get attention from me. If I'm doing something, she also respects that (as much as a 2 year old can), so I can get what I'm doing done until I can play. She knows I will, so she'll wait politely.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
  2. :O by DirtyCanuck · · Score: 3, Funny

    "Given that some form of disability is almost inevitable, what's keeping you from volunteering and working with geeks "

    I'm disabled.

    1. Re::O by Tigersmind · · Score: 1

      Same for me actually.

    2. Re::O by johnlcallaway · · Score: 1

      I work for a living and spend my non-work hours enjoying what I made by working.

      Besides, I don't write software unless I need it. So .. when I can't type, I'll use the crappy software we do have for whatever disability I have and make it better.

      Because that's what geeks do.....

      --
      I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
    3. Re::O by WaywardGeek · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The article asks for things that are very hard to deliver.

      I was disabled in that I for three years, from 1996 to 1999, I couldn't type due to an entrapment of my ulnar nerves in both elbows. This resulted from using two-key combinations in emacs for years, at break-neck speed, and keeping my elbows bent sharply to reach up to a keyboard. My thumbs would swell up to 50% larger than their normal volume, and anything that touched them caused a lot of pain. Driving, washing my hair, and doing shirt buttons all became painful tasks. The doctor measured a nerve speed degradation through my elbows of something like 50%. He recommended disability, as I'm sure most doctors do.

      Instead, since I worked for a great employer at the time (Synplicity), I was allowed to spend "whatever you need" to set up an environment at work where I could continue to function as a programmer. I was given a quiet office, and quiet PC (some of them are damned loud!), the best microphones, and speech recognition software - Dragon Dictate at the time, and later Naturally Speaking. I found I could "mouse" with an Alps touchpad, which sometimes I used with my knuckles. That mouse ability was key, as speech control of 2D position still sucked by 1999. I ran emacs under cygwin (which I could use to control Linux boxes when needed), and wrote 1,600 emacs macros over the 3 year period to improve my job efficiency (by voice). The initial version of HDL Analyst was written almost entirely by voice, as was almost all my work over those years. I was able to get my productivity up to about 80% of what I had when I typed, by my best estimates (lines of code/day, etc).

      Here's what I found about voice programming.

      1 - It's really hard to talk while solving hard programming problems in your head. Try talking to your friend while coding - it sucks. However, voice coding can become mechanical, just like typing, so you don't have to think about it. This feat alone is at least as hard as learning to type, which is one reason I feel voice controlled systems haven't caught on.
      2 - Controlling my specific environment eventually took 1,600 custom commands. If you know 1,600 words in a foreign language, you've got decent grasp of it. So, learning to control your environment by voice is about as difficult as learning a foreign language.
      3 - Emacs was part of what caused my injury, but also required for the solution! Without emacs, I don't know what I would have done.
      4 - My 1,600 macros are a very personal language. Voice programmers try to share our work, but it's not very useful - we just keep trying to teach each other our own unique language.

      There is room for improvement. Context sensitive voice programming where commands being recognized know where the cursor is, and the BNF syntax of the format you're editing would be huge.

      Now, for what actually "cured" me (I still have to keep typing below a certain limit per day) - I got married and had a daughter. Wherever my baby was, I wanted to be, so I set up a laptop with Naturally Speaking, and followed her around. The keys on the keyboard have less travel, and cushions at the bottom (not all do!). My elbows are straighter. My stress just evaporated every time I looked at my daughter (most RSI injuries happen during high stress periods - after my divorce in my case). One day I noticed that typing the damned password into Windows stopped hurting, and little by little, I regained typing ability.

      Unfortunately for me, it turns out I also have a very rare eye problem, and am going slowly blind (it's similar to macular degeneration). Anyone out there still a successful partially blind programmer? This is a field where I would be willing to volunteer while still able to program.

      --
      Celebrate failure, and then learn from it - Nolan Bushnell
    4. Re::O by Plunky · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately for me, it turns out I also have a very rare eye problem, and am going slowly blind (it's similar to macular degeneration). Anyone out there still a successful partially blind programmer?

      There was an Ask Slashdot back in 2001 entitled Are There Blind Programmers? and you may find some useful information there. Otherwise yes, there are blind programmers out there but as you no doubt understand, physical form is not always relevant on the internet and it may not be obvious.

  3. The reason that nobody really works on this... by adamkennedy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    > By spending time now building the interfaces and
    > tools that will enable them to use computers more
    > easily, you will also be ensuring your own ability
    > to use them in the future.

    Nobody thinks they are going to be disabled.

    It's as simple as that I'm afraid.

    In the Perl world I know one major hacker that has done a ton of accessibility work. In his case, it's his daughter that has the the disability, so he has a direct and immediate interest in helping her.

    1. Re:The reason that nobody really works on this... by linzeal · · Score: 1

      I'm glad that most advances I have seen are integrated at least in a rudimentary in all major OS nowadays. It used to be that to use Windows 95 even with a mild disability required you to purchase multiple software packages that often were poorly supported if the company was even around by the time you bought the software.

    2. Re:The reason that nobody really works on this... by DancesWithBlowTorch · · Score: 4, Informative

      There are many people working on input methods for the disabled. As just one example, Dasher is an information efficient text-entry method that can be controlled by mouse, voice, gaze, two buttons or even a single button. Experienced users regularly type 20+ words per minute, just with their gaze. Try that with an on-screen keyboard.

      The same group has just published nomon, a single-button text entry method (and pointing device) for the severely disabled. Did I mention that both programs are open source?

    3. Re:The reason that nobody really works on this... by arndawg · · Score: 1

      In the Perl world I know one major hacker that has done a ton of accessibility work

      Perl? Then you're disabled by default so that's not so strange. kiiiid

    4. Re:The reason that nobody really works on this... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      I sometimes wonder if this sort of problem is an unsolvable one anyway.

      I have arthritis (auto-immune) and it prevents me playing games much any more. Even just working on the hardware side of PCs, particularly with screw drivers, is quite painful.

      Okay, maybe I could spend lots of time and money finding a way to carry on doing those things on a regular basis, but for me it seems to make more sense to just accept it and move on to something else. Now I do electronics as a hobby, in particular game controller related stuff, and embedded system programming.

      I know it can be hard to accept, but maybe there is just no good way for some people to do some things. Maybe one day computers will be like the ones in Star Trek and understand natural language, but today I think we just have to accept some limitations. That isn't to say we should not work towards something better, but for what the OP wants it's going to take some major advances in technology before it becomes viable.

      Those advances will come from people working in academia and for large, well funded research divisions. It's not the sort of thing you can just sit down a code using computer science principals.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    5. Re:The reason that nobody really works on this... by bjourne · · Score: 1

      I think it's rather that it's hard for not disabled persons to identify the needs of disabled ones. For example, web developers spend a lot of time adding alt tags to image but has anyone confirmed that that enhances the browsing experience for blind people? It is also often the fact that usability features degrade accessibility. The mouse is great for non-professional computer users but is an accessibility nightmare.

    6. Re:The reason that nobody really works on this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I vi sitedthe lab of the crew who were working on Dasher - it was pretty impressive. They'd even rigged up a breath-controlled prototype, so that by adjusting your breathing you could type.... It seemed to work really well, sort of a great predictive text interface, although for programers there are probably still complications in going back and making edits to your code...

      The big advantage with something like Dasher is that it is easily accessible to people where speech recognition might be an issue, which can be really liberating for someone with speech difficulties... communicating with software is troublesome enough, but just imagine if your friends/family/doctors/etc can't understand you even if your brain is working just fine...

      definitely check it out - I just glanced at their website, and they've now got a hybrid speech recognition version going, where you can first use speech recognition, but then use Dasher to "steer" the software into the correct version of what you said if it's not sure... http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/

    7. Re:The reason that nobody really works on this... by awtbfb · · Score: 1

      Nobody thinks they are going to be disabled.

      There is a standing joke in the community. People without disabilities are "temporarily abled" since most people encounter disability at some point in their life.

    8. Re:The reason that nobody really works on this... by syousef · · Score: 1

      Nobody thinks they are going to be disabled.

      That simply isn't true. I had an ankle injury that lurked for 15 years with no major effects. It is currently badly arthritic and I'll probably need an ankle fusion in the next few years. With or without that I expect to be on a cane or in a wheel chair in the next 10. I'm not the only one. Disabilities don't always come without any warning.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    9. Re:The reason that nobody really works on this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are many people working on input methods for the disabled. As just one example, Dasher is an information efficient text-entry method that can be controlled by mouse, voice, gaze, two buttons or even a single button. Experienced users regularly type 20+ words per minute, just with their gaze. Try that with an on-screen keyboard.

      The same group has just published nomon, a single-button text entry method (and pointing device) for the severely disabled. Did I mention that both programs are open source?

      yeah dasher is pretty cool. i assisted in testing in cambridge when i was an undergrad there a few years ago. i also tried it with the gaze and do stuff device. was pretty cool. i must look up the project again at some point.

  4. Apple - I hate you! by Col+Bat+Guano · · Score: 4, Funny

    I lost a fingertip in an encounter with a circular saw.

    Later I bought an iPhone, and the documentation was titled "Fingertips".

    I've also used a fingerprint reader to try to log into a friend's computer - it said "too short", so I can't blame SteveJ for everything.

    I do hope that multi touch input does consider people who have less than full dexterity/digits, but somehow I suspect there are another class of people waiting to be left behind.

    1. Re:Apple - I hate you! by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Don't you have other fingertips to use?

      You could always use the ones that are undamaged. Unless you only enrolled with the damaged one (and didn't do multiples).

      That said, it's a silly idea to allow just fingerprints to login. Fingerprints aren't secure and fingerprints are very likely to get damaged.

      --
    2. Re:Apple - I hate you! by Mishotaki · · Score: 1
      I also lost part of a finger, but my personal problem is with the keyboards made out of plastic...

      Since it's made in plastic, the normal user uses their flat fingers to type and play

      Since i completely lost thf fingertip sensation of my middle finger, the other fingers gotta compensate while typing and playing...

      My thumb pushes on the "D" key sideways while playing, therefore it carves the key overitme... also my ring finger sits on the edge od the A key, cutting the edge of the key (now there is actually a hole in it) the left ALT key is carved by my thumb's nail, it's got a pretty deep hole in it, next year there should be a hole in it

      If i would have a steel, or any material more friction-resistant, i'm sure i wouldn't have such weird, carved, keys...

    3. Re:Apple - I hate you! by El+Lobo · · Score: 1

      If Tony Iommi can play, I'm sure you can type.

      --
      It's time to realise that Abble's products are the biggest abomination these days. Just say NO to the dumb iAbble way!!
    4. Re:Apple - I hate you! by that+IT+girl · · Score: 1

      I think he was trying to be funny...

      --
      10 FILL MUG WITH COFFEE
      20 DRINK COFFEE
      30 GOTO 10
    5. Re:Apple - I hate you! by Quothz · · Score: 1

      If i would have a steel, or any material more friction-resistant, i'm sure i wouldn't have such weird, carved, keys...

      Yeah, but this is about tools for disabled geeks. A geek would probably not need this link to find steel keyboards.

    6. Re:Apple - I hate you! by TheLink · · Score: 1

      I knew there was something about that post. Couldn't put my finger on it though.

      Thanks for the tip!

      --
    7. Re:Apple - I hate you! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's wrong with your other nine finger tips?

  5. Permanently disabled geeks also exist by JoshuaZ · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I have a friend who was born with one arm and is about as geeky as they get. She uses voice recognition software for most online things (although apparently voice recognition software isn't so great for programming). I know someone else who developed hand injuries much later in life and has had a lot of trouble adjusting. It is much easier for people to adjust to being disabled at a young age than at an old age.

    1. Re:Permanently disabled geeks also exist by plover · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A relative was born with cerebral palsy which manifested itself as severe control problems, especially with her hands and upper body, including almost unrecognizable speech. She tried a mouse with a large wooden knob, and later a leather strap, but they were pretty frustrating as her control is so limited. Only close friends and family can understand her speech, so voice recognition has never been an option. But her feet are pretty good, so she's learned to manipulate a track-ball with her toe. It takes her a while, but she can get stuff done. ( I have to say being on line is one of the most liberating things that's ever happened to her. I'm glad she found a tool that works. )

      Another relative suffered a stroke fifteen years ago, and she has very little use of her right side and mild aphasia since then. She learned to use her left hand, but complex or multitasking instructions are now beyond her. She needs a distraction-free environment in order to function well.

      My point is that many disabilities are uncommon or unique. Some disabilities require a physical change to make the interface work -- it's not typically a problem you can solve in software. Others are environmental. So it's hard to find an off-the-shelf solution for any particular problem, as they're not economical to produce in quantity.

      --
      John
    2. Re:Permanently disabled geeks also exist by complete+loony · · Score: 4, Interesting

      My father is an amputee, he lost both his hands when he was about 6. His left arm has about 4 inches after the elbow, and his right ends at the elbow.

      In the early 8-bit hobby computing era he gave up his teaching job and started working as an analyst / developer. He types on a normal keyboard by holding a pen between his arms. Sometimes using his left elbow on Shift / Control keys.

      However he is far more productive than most of the able bodied developers he works with because he's written so many macros in vim to automate just about everything.

      --
      09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
    3. Re:Permanently disabled geeks also exist by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      He types on a normal keyboard by holding a pen between his arms.

      Having both hands myself, I am curious why he doesn't use some sort of attachment to hold a "pen" on each stump? Is it too much hassle to strap them on each time he wants to sit down and work?

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    4. Re:Permanently disabled geeks also exist by complete+loony · · Score: 3, Interesting

      He has tried prosthetics a couple of times, but they were always more hassle than they were worth. He'd lose tactile feedback and dexterity. Plus these days you need to swap from mouse to keyboard fairly quickly, having a pointing device attached to his arm would probably be more annoying to deal with.

      Though talking about my dad in this topic seems a bit unfair. I don't think anyone who's met him would call him disabled. The only things he's incapable of doing by himself are fiddly things he can't reach, like tying a necktie.

      --
      09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
    5. Re:Permanently disabled geeks also exist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I can't speak for the gentleman programmer above, but as a disabled, amputee geek, I say: if anyone can design an attachment that will securely and comfortably strap a pen to my stump at an angle that works for typing accurately, AND the designer can sell it to me for less than ten bucks, I will buy it, use it, and recommend it to everyone I can find.

      In many years of trying, I have not found one that works. It's harder than it looks to attach something to your limb securely without being uncomfortable.

    6. Re:Permanently disabled geeks also exist by Henk+Poley · · Score: 1

      I wonder if the can be of any help.

    7. Re:Permanently disabled geeks also exist by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 2, Informative

      Ten bucks seems really cheap for something that could significantly increase your productivity.
      If you are a professional programmer, I imagine an item like that would pay for itself within a week at ten bucks, if it could even be made for that selling price.
      But if it takes $300 to sell them, it would still pay for itself in a lot less than one year. A decent office chair costs more than that.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    8. Re:Permanently disabled geeks also exist by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Direct thought control might be the answer, but I don't know if it would work with people who have motor problems. I suppose it depends on if the problem is in the brain or somewhere else, and if despite the brain problems a computer could read the intent correctly.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    9. Re:Permanently disabled geeks also exist by plastbox · · Score: 1

      This might seem like a harsh question, but how "handicapable" are you? Are you able to do basic electronics and such?

      If so, read up on sensory substitution/augmentation, it's truly amazing stuff! I have no idea why modern prostethics that cost in the order of $4000 do not use ss/a to provide feedback, when the parts needed cost roughly $3! I mean, try picking up an egg with your robotic hand with only visual feedback (no pressure, movement, etc.)!

      I don't know what part of you is missing, but you should probably be able to make a silicone mold or something that sticks pretty well.

      1. Lube up your stump (shave as needed)
      2. Open valve to let air out of device
      3. Slide stump inside
      4. Close valve

      I saw a tv show about this stuff once, and it seems like a pretty trivial thing to make. Problems arise when/if you try to do heavy lifting but for typing, it should be more than secure enough.

      Add a "pen" with a force sensor or three to the tip, each coupled to a button vibrator placed on the skin of your arm.

      The electronics cost $28 per sensor/feedback pair, plus a few bucks for silicone, fiberglass and the "pen". Yeah, it's a hazzle to build it yourself instead of whining on /. but if you want something done right.. you get the point. =P

    10. Re:Permanently disabled geeks also exist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (although apparently voice recognition software isn't so great for programming)

      Has she tried COBOL?

    11. Re:Permanently disabled geeks also exist by Quothz · · Score: 1

      Sometimes using his left elbow on Shift / Control keys.

      Is he aware that there are foot pedals available that can be used for this? Most on the market are fully customizable for any keyboard/click command plus macros, although ctrl/shift/alt/click is a typical setup. Some of the systems are expandable, so you can add as many pedals as you care to deal with.

    12. Re:Permanently disabled geeks also exist by mr.witherspoone · · Score: 1

      I lost the use of one my arms in a motorcycle accident at 22. I've found something like this along with one handed keyboard settings helps a lot: http://gamingmouse.com/weapon.php?pid=31

    13. Re:Permanently disabled geeks also exist by badkarmadayaccount · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up.

      --
      I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
  6. My work has similiar concerns... by flyingsled · · Score: 3, Insightful

    At my work, they're grappling with the same problem. They have a number of blind people working the phones, and their workstations have all sorts of expensive specialised hardware to help them work. The problem is, as more apps move from older green screen technology (yep, there's still lots) to newer wiz-bang web applications, those web-apps have to be created with accessibility in mind. They use JAWS (a commercial product from Freedom Scientific) to make internal applications accessible. As for why there's not much work on the open source front, I guess it's one of those things where a competent developer hasn't had the urge to work on it. But I agree that making computers accessible at a reasonable price (or free) is very important, especially given as a huge chunk of society is getting to the age where this stuff will be needed a lot.

    1. Re:My work has similiar concerns... by pimpimpim · · Score: 1

      There are probably even laws that state that websites from public institutions have to be accessible. But the sad thing is that in many cases "Accessibility" is implemented by adding a button somewhere on the site to make the font larger. I saw this at my former university. At the same time their webpage was so cluttered with frames (even after frames were fashionable) that the site would be very hard to browse with a text-only browser, so converting to braille would be hard. Really, websites with public information should STILL be tested with lynx or w3m just for this reason.

      --
      molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
    2. Re:My work has similiar concerns... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for the anecdote. The sad part is that web applications CAN be as usable as terminals to the blind if the CGI returns text and only text. Talk to your manager and/or vendor - maybe you can beta-test an ADA compliant version with the vendors co-operation. Explain your position to them, your dilemma, and offer as a chance for the vendor to add a new feature to their application that may lead to more sales. Many workplaces have disabled employees. If their sales rep can say to prospect "Yes, it features a text-only mode and a screen-reader that enables vision-impaired employees to use the system" that can help close the deal.

      The younger readers here may smirk, but that's because you have no idea. In corporate america, you work side by side with people who are too young (and too poor) to retire but too old to read anything smaller than an 18 point font. They just can't read it anymore, even with glasses. It's a real test of your patience when you're young, fast, and hyped up on caffiene and trying to help someone in their 60s use the system, and you realize... the reason their jobs/entries don't go through or error out is because their putting typos and spaces in their entries and they simply _cannot_ see the typo, even after you point them out. Seconds tick by as they stare... and say "Where? An extra space?"

      See:
      http://leb.net/blinux/blynx/

      Maybe the one technology from Star Trek we should research are conversational computers, like Zen on Blake 7.

    3. Re:My work has similiar concerns... by FullBandwidth · · Score: 1

      My daughter is in the same situation. JAWS for Windows, from what I gather, is a kind of video driver that intercepts Win API calls to display text and turns those into speech. Seems straightforward enough, right? However, in a misguided bid to "distinguish" their software, many vendors choose to skip the API and display their own proprietary widgets on the screen, consisting of text and graphics. JAWS is lost, and if those contain system-modal dialogs, a blind user is out of business. Norton Antivirus is an insidious example of this. Likewise, Flash, Silverlight and all those graphics-based content systems are completely inaccessible to the blind. Frankly I have yet to see one flash-based web site that offered any advantage over text-based sites. We went from cave paintings, to the written and spoken word, only to have the computer return us to the cave painting days. Short of developing and enforcing standards for accessibility, I don't have any ideas of how to tame this rampant abuse of the disabled.

      --
      My friend Debbie Ann is so promiscuous, instead of an appointment book she needs a package manager
  7. Not just keyboards by EdIII · · Score: 4, Funny

    It's not repetitive use of keyboards that is ultimately going to get me into trouble.

    1. Re:Not just keyboards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ordinary, pleasurable things are so much more painful with RSI than without. It suck the joy out of everything in the wrong way..

  8. Get ready by DeepBlueDiver · · Score: 1

    In time, almost 100% of keyboard users will have trouble typing

    In time, all 100% of users will die. Should we start buying coffins?

    1. Re:Get ready by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Only if the community makes them free and releases the "source code" online.

      Seriously though, there's money to be made in the disabled. While I believe the OSS community needs to make a push towards better accessibility software, the fact remains that the paid software will almost always be higher quality. Why would they release a Linux version when they can count on the fact that 99.9% of your users will be using Windows or OS X? I don't know of one person who would stick with Linux when switching OS means the difference between getting stuff done (with the accessibility software) and having half broken functionality.

    2. Re:Get ready by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you planning on living with your problem of being dead? Didn't think so.

    3. Re:Get ready by RuBLed · · Score: 3, Funny

      In time, all 100% of users will die. Should we start buying coffins?

      not 100% though... you see, I'm planning to buy a big box, go inside along with a device that releases / exposes a radioactive material based on a randomly-timed trigger.

    4. Re:Get ready by DeepBlueDiver · · Score: 1

      Yes, I'm planning to be a zombie. I should start training on eating brains.

    5. Re:Get ready by Darkness404 · · Score: 1

      If you develop on Linux, particularly if you are a sysadmin or are very very good at Linux-only code.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    6. Re:Get ready by eln · · Score: 1

      In time, almost 100% of keyboard users will have trouble typing

      In time, all 100% of users will die. Should we start buying coffins?

      Yes. I've left orders to my family that, in order to save money, I should be left to the wolves when I die. I have helpfully mapped out the locations of various wolf packs in the area to help them carry out my instructions.

    7. Re:Get ready by kramerd · · Score: 1

      Oddly enough, there is a discount funeral store near me. You buy the package today, and when you die, everything is already taken of.

      Full disclosure, I haven't bought a coffin yet.

    8. Re:Get ready by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 1

      Can't you read the signs? Don't feed the animals.

      --
      I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
    9. Re:Get ready by badkarmadayaccount · · Score: 1

      Yes?

      --
      I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
  9. Denial by QuantumG · · Score: 2

    Just reading your question makes my fingers hurt. Doing what I do every day is clearly destroying my hands but its easier to just not think about it.

    --
    How we know is more important than what we know.
    1. Re:Denial by hedwards · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Or make sure the keyboard is at a comfortable height and switch over to Dvorak. Dvorak isn't any faster than QWERTY, but it was designed to minimize unnecessary fatigue and strain while typing. Long periods of time at the keyboard do not cause repetitive stress injury, despite what the medical establishment used to say. It's long periods in poorly laid out surrounds that do.

    2. Re:Denial by JorDan+Clock · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And the Segway was designed to revolutionize the way we get around, but that doesn't mean there is any evidence to suggest that happened.

      Every time someone says "Dvorak is better for your hands" or "QWERTY was designed to be slow" really needs to do some basic research and stop spouting out everything they hear. Dvorak has never been objectively proven to be faster or more comfortable. The only studies to support this claim were of questionable integrity. I will gladly accept this claim if it can be objectively demonstrated, but until then, stop saying it please.

    3. Re:Denial by TBoon · · Score: 1

      However, Dvorak also comes in one-handed versions. While regular dvorak might not be any faster than QWERTY, I wouldn't be surprised of the one-hand version (which exist for both the left and right hand) would be significantly faster for most typing tasks than using a single hand on QWERTY... Does anyone know any research about that?

    4. Re:Denial by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dvorak has never been objectively proven to be faster

      I know -- the fact that the world records in fastest typing have been attained on Dvorak keyboards is obviously just a coincidence.

    5. Re:Denial by grimborg · · Score: 1

      Every time someone says "Dvorak is better for your hands" or "QWERTY was designed to be slow" really needs to do some basic research and stop spouting out everything they hear. Dvorak has never been objectively proven to be faster or more comfortable. The only studies to support this claim were of questionable integrity. I will gladly accept this claim if it can be objectively demonstrated, but until then, stop saying it please.

      I'm a Dvorak typist. Dvorak feels way more comfortable to me, regardless of what the studies say or fail to say. If you want a second opinion I'd add It's also geeky. If you want a third opinion I would also say it's sexy. (for certain definitions of sexy) I used to think that Qwerty was ok. Now that I'm used to Dvorak whenever I have to switch to Qwerty I feel the keys are scattered all over the place. It's not that I don't know where they are (I can still type Qwerty), it's that they're always fucking far away! With Dvorak the keys I press the most are on the baseline or near the center... I'm spoiled now, I hate typing in Qwerty. -- I'm so convinced I'm right I won't even bother adding "Period." at the end

    6. Re:Denial by grimborg · · Score: 1

      However, Dvorak also comes in one-handed versions. While regular dvorak might not be any faster than QWERTY, I wouldn't be surprised of the one-hand version (which exist for both the left and right hand) would be significantly faster for most typing tasks than using a single hand on QWERTY... Does anyone know any research about that?

      It's designed to have the most used letters handy. It's very useful for jerking off while coding. You can grab one at Thinkgeek, although they are not cheap. They used to come with a free monkeyspanker!

    7. Re:Denial by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Snap!

    8. Re:Denial by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      study or no- I switched to dvorak years ago after encountering some severe carpal tunnel. For days, i avoided writing emails, etc as I hunted and pecked. But in a month or so I got back to my full QWERTY speed. A few years later, I'm noticeably faster. More importantly, I have much much better wrists- but that wasn't true until I got a -real- dvorak. I have a TypeMatrix which does away with the standard staggered keys and goes for a really compact approach for minimal travel, and a Kinesis dvorak which has recessed pools that reduce finger bending and movement as well. For me, there's no question dvorak helps- the only place it's ever a problem is games without remappable keys, and emacs is just horrid.

      I love my dvorak and I'm never going back. To heck with any studies.

  10. Let me be the first to mention Dasher by greenguy · · Score: 3, Informative

    Dasher is a great text-input interface: mouse driven, and you don't even have to click (very often). Not as fast as a keyboard, but still respectable.

    Heck, I wish it worked for my N800, and I don't even have any disabilities.

    --
    What if I do the same thing, and I do get different results?
    1. Re:Let me be the first to mention Dasher by lwsimon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I've been thinking about building a Dasher input device for a long time - I'm thinking of a joystick with a 8" or so LCD to display Dasher. Running Linux, with USB, VGA, and even component video ports to attach to other display devices.

      The advantage being, you could use this on multiple systems, without installing hardware. Let the device send standard keyboard codes, and handle the Dasher software inside the device.

      --
      Learn about Photography Basics.
    2. Re:Let me be the first to mention Dasher by SqueezeKey · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I have been using Dasher for the vast majority of my typing needs for the past year. I was diagnosed with Lou Gehrig's disease (ALS) about two years ago and have slowly lost the use of my left hand and arm during those two years. Dasher is commonly recommended to paraplegic and quadriplegic patients. I know several ALS patients who use it with eyegaze or headmouse setups and love it. It should be usable on any *NIX system that supports GNOME. There are also Windows binaries available.

      Another possibility that can be used is an onscreen keyboard with dwell clicking for the mouse and word prediction capability in the keyboard software. I know that both xvkbd and the GNOME onscreen keyboard (GOK) both support word prediction. There are also a couple of projects that have adapted the Dasher word prediction engine into an interface like a telephone keypad that could also be used with dwell-clicking to provide a decent interface. Seems to me one of those projects was called Tapir and the other one was called dKeys.

      If anybody becomes interested in this kind of stuff and decides to take on a role in contributing to some of these accessible software projects, you will have the appreciation of hundreds of thousands of disabled users worldwide. Not a bad reward for a little bit of work.

    3. Re:Let me be the first to mention Dasher by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 1

      Dasher is a good system. Especially if you can write language files for given programming languages.

      --
      Not a sentence!
  11. Custom Solutions by flnca · · Score: 2

    There are custom solutions for disabled people on the market -- if you have health insurance, you can ask them if they are going to pay for it.

    BTW, I always worry about things like accessibility, but employers for instance don't pay attention to that, and programming APIs for accessibility often dramatically increase the complexity of an application. That's why so few applications make use of accessibility functions. That must be changed someday. Thanks for the reminder. If I can, I will incorporate some of your ideas into an easy-to-use GUI framework, that frees the programmer from all extra work associated with it.

    1. Re:Custom Solutions by Taxman415a · · Score: 1

      Gtk does for the most part comply with the Gnome Accessibility API, it just takes some extra tagging and some other extras listed there, certainly not entire re-writes in most cases. Have a look at Glade. While you have to look a little bit in the interface, the accessibility stuff is right there, and basically amounts to making sure everything is labeled for screen readers, etc. I realize Glade may not be what you want to work in, then just go with GTK+. Ok, that has drawbacks sure, but the accessibility part is mostly solved.

  12. Oh yeah... by NewbieProgrammerMan · · Score: 2, Insightful

    My question to Slashdot: Given that some form of disability is almost inevitable, what's keeping you from volunteering and working with geeks who are already disabled?

    Nice -- throw out the guilt card right there at the end, when I'm just about to decide whether or not following the link is worth my time. That really makes me want to read more of what you have to say, yessir.

    If I was going to work on hardware or software for disabled people, I'd be more inclined to work on stuff for people with little or no voluntary muscle control. What fraction of disabled geeks also can't speak?

    --
    [b.belong('us') for b in bases if b.owner() == 'you']
    1. Re:Oh yeah... by AndyCater · · Score: 1

      I have relatively mild cerebral palsy. Some problems working with my hands, a stutter very occasionally which gets worse with nerves. I'm bloody lucky. Fine muscular control also, obviously, affects the larynx. A good many of my friends have scanning speech/slurred speech as well as muscle control problems. Intention tremor, where something gets harder to do the more you concentrate on it, is also not uncommon. Once you can find the appropriate solution for somebody, you can watch them grow in confidence and ability to communicate freely. Voice input is fine for the visually impaired but it's not a catch-all. I'm not sure I'd trust it for more than "Open the pod bay doors Hal"

    2. Re:Oh yeah... by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 1

      What fraction of disabled geeks also can't speak?

      To echo what Andy said, folks with CP may be one such example. My nephew has it - he can't speak pretty much at all, and his motor control isn't good either. But he's pretty danged smart. He has some sort of specialized computer, but I think it has dedicated software. I have tried looking for something to help him get into programming (his dream is to be a video games programmer), but I've turned up very little.

      So yeah, there is a pretty sizeable need there.

    3. Re:Oh yeah... by Tokah · · Score: 1

      I'm losing my hand and jaw function simultaneously. By the time I can't hamgrip a pencil in each hand and type, I won't be able to talk or chew either. Please do!

    4. Re:Oh yeah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice -- throw out the guilt card right there at the end, when I'm just about to decide whether or not following the link is worth my time. That really makes me want to read more of what you have to say, yessir.

      Ok, so we'll put you down as 'because I'm a pompous ass'. Thanks for playing and please don't forget your free hat on the way out.

    5. Re:Oh yeah... by NewbieProgrammerMan · · Score: 1

      Are there any voluntary motions you can make that aren't affected by intention tremor?

      --
      [b.belong('us') for b in bases if b.owner() == 'you']
    6. Re:Oh yeah... by NewbieProgrammerMan · · Score: 1

      How does he use the computer he has now--what sort of inputs is he using? I can imagine there's not many places to go buy a complete solution off a shelf, and even then it's probably as expensive as hell (and not covered by insurance or government aid).

      --
      [b.belong('us') for b in bases if b.owner() == 'you']
    7. Re:Oh yeah... by NewbieProgrammerMan · · Score: 1

      What sorts of movements will you still be able to make that could be used as input? It seems that some people have been fairly creative in adapting remaining limited movement to operate computers.

      --
      [b.belong('us') for b in bases if b.owner() == 'you']
    8. Re:Oh yeah... by Tokah · · Score: 1

      I can't be exactly sure, due to the nature of my illness. Based on how things are going now, I would imagine that I'll be able to keep upper arm and shoulder motion, as well as most of my ab muscles and neck movement. I've seen a PS2 controller that was wired to run on 6 different muscle groups spread throughout the body, so with some willingness to try different stuff, I'm sure it can be worked out. The points many other people made were good, though, it's much harder for someone outside the situation.

  13. Time, money, expertiese by holophrastic · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I own two programming companies. We work on things that are a) profitable, in the short or medium term; and b) have the expertiese and understanding to accomplish.

    I am not presently disabled. None of my employees / contractors are disabled. So it won't help us any time soon, and we have no experience in the field.

    Here's the ironic part. I've built three development platforms (one for each type of device that we create). Each of the three "languages" (mark-up, script, whatever) have such stringent conventions that it wolud be pretty easy to develop a "vocabulary" to reference areas of the platform code such that while worknig with the platform code (as opposed to developing and enhancing the core elements) would be quite doable. That would cover about 90% of our workload too.

    But in the end, it will never happen. Here's the thing. Right now, it's more profitable for me to work as-is, than to work on accessibility. The day I become disabled, even if it were to be tomorrowb morning, it would still be cheaper for me to hire a co-op student to type for me, or to read to me, or both.

    Now, if hundreds of thousands of dollars of disabled clients were knocking on my door, it would take me fewer than six months to build the tools needed for a skilled programmer to navigate through my platform code with simple commands that could be mapped to .V.R., or a joystick, or a head-bob, or whatever. Right now, there are no such clients at my door-step.

    1. Re:Time, money, expertiese by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      And besides, what kind of "geek" asks for tools? Any disabled geek worth hiring if the tools were to exist could just as easily create those tools himself -- disabled or otherwise.

    2. Re:Time, money, expertiese by MeatBag+PussRocket · · Score: 1

      while i agree with your original explanation of finding adequate profitability a barrier to developing accessibility tools, i think its a little ignorant to say any geek worth hiring can make said tools himself. there are plenty of geeks that arent incredible coders. thats like saying, why do you need a SCSI controller card, any geek worth his salt could build one. i cant code my way out of a shoebox, but i could build a SCSI card given the tools. eveyone has their niche. also consider this: if you have no hands (or no motor function to them) how are you supposed to create the tools in the first place, even with the know-how? not every business is your buisness.

      --
      i wage a holy war against the apostrophe.
    3. Re:Time, money, expertiese by SqueezeKey · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You obviously haven't seen the markup that gets put on computer equipment that qualifies as a medical device. Take a look around on the Dynavox website (www.dynavoxtech.com) and see if any of those gadgets look terribly complicated or difficult to replicate. Then look at the price list. The cheapest gadget (palmtop) goes for $3000+. The laptop-sized device goes for about $8000 unless it has the eyegaze system, which goes for an additional $7000, bringing the total to a cool $15,000 per unit. All covered by Medicare, Medicaid, and most major medical insurance.

    4. Re:Time, money, expertiese by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You say you are not disabled- nor your employees/ contractors-
      Look up the stats-
      It runs about 40% chance YOU WILL become disabled, now multiply that times those other people.

      26% of America is disabled.

      Thats not a demographic?

    5. Re:Time, money, expertiese by sowth · · Score: 1

      All covered by Medicare, Medicaid, and most major medical insurance.

      This is why they are so expensive. They up and up the price because insurance companies have to pay legit claims, except of course the prices aren't really legit, but it is attached to the legit needs of the patients. Sort of like auto repair shops who reimburse customers with cash.

      Even though it is essentially the spirit of embezzling, they get away with it because the system is corrupt. Most patients don't care because they don't get charged more (at least not right away), auto mechanic customers love it because they get extra cash out of their insurance claim. This is one of the major things which screwed up the medical industry and why medical care is so expensive.

      From what I've seen, hearing aids are the same story. $3000(us) or so per pair. I could probably use one in my right ear, but this is too much to pay, especially since I am on disability (two strokes and kidney failure).

    6. Re:Time, money, expertiese by layabout · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I tried going the route of having someone type for me. It would cost me, by the time agency fees are factored in, around $100-$200 per day. If I'm billing, I can afford that. If I'm not billing, I can't and that puts me right back in the place of looking for a solution. Unfortunately, even at the best of times, it was a very tough experience. The typist could not type fast enough to keep up with what I was saying. I would try to teach her macros (stored in her head) and I would say things about constructing loops and method references etc., she would freeze up, think for little bit, and then start again. I would correct what she just typed and then we would keep going. Effectively what I was doing was teaching her to program. then I would have to pay her more money and she wouldn't want to type for me. She would want to write her own code. Get another typist... As you can see, the agency fees would add up and nearly get really expensive if I expected the typist to hang around until two o'clock in the morning so I could finish some work. The same money could be applied to developing these tools if the money was free to be used in this way. That's the second problem with being disabled. Before disability, you're making enough money to build the tools, after disability, you don't have enough money to build the tools and you don't have the physical ability to build the tools. This stuff is not simple. It is complex and you need a team of people and guinea pigs to make something work right. Hell, right now I would be happy if I could get someone to make vr-mode work

    7. Re:Time, money, expertiese by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can create a market where none existed. It's been done over and over. Your argument is fine. No clients = no invoices = no payroll. Understood.

      But the real issue is that is NOT REQUIRED BY LAW. If ADA-compliant computer accessibility were required by law (i.e. if you get sued or fined for not doing it or the FTC could pull your product from the shelf/forbid you to sell it, or government agencies couldn't buy it because it's not section 508 compliant) then and really only then will it get done. The same thing happened with wheel-chair ramps back when ADA first passed. People made the same arguments as you: I'm not disabled, my employees/customers aren't either, it will cost $$$, why should I, etc. After the ramps went in, businesses learned the reason they never got customers in wheelchairs is because they were housebound, knowing full well they'd never be able to wheel up the stairs and thru the weighted steel & glass front door. But now that they can, they do. We get disabled customers coming in their motorized chair, about 1 every other day.

      That's why we have flash-only websites and AJAX garbage that makes accessibility almost impossible: because they can. There's no law that says they have to. Only the web sites of government agencies themselves fall under section 508. The government doesn't want to "stifle innovation" or "interfere with the free market" or whatever their lobbyists pay them to say.

    8. Re:Time, money, expertiese by Kreigaffe · · Score: 1

      26% of America is disabled, but a significant number of those people are not ACTUALLY disabled as far as you (well, maybe you) or I are concerned.

      There's a difference between "disabled" and "legally disabled". Fat people can be "disabled", if they're fat enough (which makes no sense, their whole problem is not doing enough physical exercise so we let them park closer and ride those awesome carts at walmart). There's also mental disabilities, which may make using a keyboard or mouse hard, but it's not anything that could be solved with software -- it's the mentally disabled person's brain that isn't working right, not the physical parts they use to interface with a computer.
      And believe me, there are a LOT of mentally disabled people out there. I'm not just talking retarded people, mentally disabled also can cover emotional disturbances (psychological problems, ie, shut-ins, OCD, ADD, all those wonderful things).

      Now you've got to further trim the number as anybody who is physically disabled in a manner that only affects them from the upper torso down, because they are still able to use a computer without problem.

      --
      ... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about. :|
    9. Re:Time, money, expertiese by that+IT+girl · · Score: 1

      If I had mod points, I'd give you one for sure. Very few people realize this.

      A few years ago, I had a horrible kidney infection that had progressed to the point where I had to be hospitalised for a night. I was between jobs at the time and did not have medical insurance. I ended up applying for some program I didn't even know existed until they told me about it--they called it a "hospital sponsorship". Basically, they got the funds from somewhere to pay most of my bills, and the hospital was able to write it off later on. I noticed that the costs were *considerably* lower than they would have been if I'd had insurance. I was intensely curious about this so I did some research, some asking around... turns out they had charged the "base price" amounts for my care, and one guy actually admitted that they "pretty much charge what they want" when they know an insurance company will be paying whatever they ask.

      --
      10 FILL MUG WITH COFFEE
      20 DRINK COFFEE
      30 GOTO 10
    10. Re:Time, money, expertiese by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      I did mean that as a humourous remark. But I would like to believe that if a disabled programmer could program with the tools, they'd be able to build those tools. It's the whole necessity father of invention kind of thing. Given the time and dire need of coures.

      On the other hand, it would be really fun to take a month off of work and develop the tools so that I could be lazy and simply work without my hands.

      Actually, foot-pedals would make navigating around my code absolutely hilariously efficient. I've been using my hands alone for years -- like a sucker! My feet do nothing! What a waste.

      Actually, this is kind of inspiring. A few pedals could really navigate my code quite speedily. And it's nothing more than a macro call within UltraEdit.

      Still need to find the time though.

    11. Re:Time, money, expertiese by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      oh, this is a stupid statistic. First off, 40% of people do a lot of stupid things. It doesn't put my chances of becoming disabled anywhere near 40%. I'm sure something like 40% of women don't know where babies come from -- and that birth control is necessary. That doesn't increase my chances, no matter how stupid my partner.

      But again, it's not that the market does or does not exist. It's that I don't currently have any access to that market. I don't know which laws to follow, where to find that market, what their priorities are, how long such a customer might persist, or any other characteristics of that market.

      In contrast, I do know all of that for my current markets. So you're asking me to venture into unknown territory. Which is fine, good, and certainly possible as well as enjoyable and even thrilling. But it's not more profitable than focussing on my current success.

    12. Re:Time, money, expertiese by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      Umm, hate to pry, but why the hell are you using an agency? Walk into a any high-school, and grab a student from the computer-science class.

      First, you'll already start with a programmer.
      Second, programmers love late hours.
      Third, young programmers love to work with older programmers and learn to program things that are larger than they can design.
      Fourth, high-school co-op students are free -- all you have to do is complete a work term report every few months.
      Fifth, you'll get a new one every four months.

      The agency's retarded, and retarding, if they sent a typist to do a programmer's job. Programmers don't need to type fast, or even consistently.

    13. Re:Time, money, expertiese by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      That's something that I fight every day. A lot of laws and standards that try to tell me, and my clients, what they can and cannot do for their own private business. I hate that.

      If I have my own successful business, and I'm doing fine, then I'm happy the way it is. Forcing me to invest in another demographic when I'm not interested in expanding my customer base is disgusting.

      What about recreational running shops? Do they benefit from their ramp? Are they exempt?

    14. Re:Time, money, expertiese by paazin · · Score: 1

      What about recreational running shops? Do they benefit from their ramp? Are they exempt?

      Sure, and they can annoy possible customers that may have:
      - temporary injuriers
      - disabled friends or family
      - children in strollers
      - etc.

      It's a smarter business decision to make those people feel as if they're welcome

    15. Re:Time, money, expertiese by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      Do you run a business? It's rarely a smarter business decision to do more work in advance of known pay. Very rarely.

    16. Re:Time, money, expertiese by paazin · · Score: 1

      Do you run a business? It's rarely a smarter business decision to do more work in advance of known pay. Very rarely.

      It's part of image and practicality; I don't know the code required for such places (my guess is it differs from state to state, town to town), but I've a close friends who own local businesses and I'd venture they'd tell you that a ramp along with stairs was genuinely worth it.
      Of course, it may be because there are a good deal of disabled elderly who live in the area so part of it may be local demographics, but certainly that isn't isolated.

    17. Re:Time, money, expertiese by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      "part of my image" is one of those things that doesn't help. My existing clients don't care about my image -- and most of them prefer that my image remain modest. Much of my business is repeat business, and so I am sustained by the clients that I already have. Changing my accessibility would be to acquire new clients -- which is a very small part of my on-going business model.

      But also, I go out to clients. I drive to them. They don't come to me. My location is realy for deliveries and working. So it doesn't help clients. Disabled employees can telecommute for most things.

    18. Re:Time, money, expertiese by paazin · · Score: 1

      Uh, what in the world are you talking about? Your example was a small retail store/boutique on a city street -- your description doesn't look to apply.

    19. Re:Time, money, expertiese by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      I develop software solutions for all sorts of verticals -- we're a custom shop. Software for a small running retail store, and software for anything else is all just software.

      In this case, the suggestion is to force my clients to pay more money to develop accessibility into their software/web-sites.

      Quite frankly, this is all retarded. What about people who don't speak english? Or people who don't speak french? Or people who don't speak whatever national official language?

      Are you not going to allow a small business to provide their services only in Portuguese?

      If a private business has a sufficient customer base to speak only in Turkish, I'm not going to force them to serve me. They don't want to serve me. The why doesn't matter.

      If my local cable company doesn't want to provide actual adequate to service to solve my whatever issue, then that's fine too. I can be upset, but I've got no right to be upset with them. They are permitted to not serve me.

      "We have the right to refuse service to any customer."

      Deal with it.

    20. Re:Time, money, expertiese by zuperduperman · · Score: 1

      > What about recreational running shops? Do they benefit from their ramp? Are they exempt?

      I might have said the same as you a few years ago. Then I had a child. Now I can tell you that having an easy entrance ramp where a stroller or similar can go up pretty much very often determines whether I bother to go into a store or not. And yes, families spend a lot of money, on things like shoes, no less.

    21. Re:Time, money, expertiese by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps you could put your trumpet down and go and look up the definition of 'volunteer'.

    22. Re:Time, money, expertiese by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      Whoa. So you prefer a ramp because you find it a convenience? I'm sorry, but enacting laws that restrict private businesses just to give you an added convenience is simply not juste -- you lazy crump.

      We're talking here about people who can't physically negotiate the stairs -- not people too lazy to lift their child. You are free to ask any business to install a convenience for you. And they are free to say no.

    23. Re:Time, money, expertiese by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      Meaning will, as in of one's own volition.

      So if I assign this task to you, to build these accessibility tools, and offer to pay you nothing, you'll volunteer to do it?

    24. Re:Time, money, expertiese by zuperduperman · · Score: 1

      As I indicated by quoting the section of your comment I was replying to, I'm not advocating about laws either way, I'm just telling you that your assertion that nobody gets any benefit from a ramp unless disabled people are customers is false.

      But thanks for the insults anyway. I'll be sure next time I see a pregnant woman struggling to lift a stroller up some steps not to help her since that would make her a "lazy crump".

    25. Re:Time, money, expertiese by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      My point was that forcing ALL businesses to do something that may or may not help some businesses is not reasonable.

      But speaking of women and strollers. . .

      Much like handicap spots, there are now those spots with a picture of a stroller. The idea is that parents shouldn't have to walk their children through a "dangerous" parking lot.

      Screw that. I'm not respecting everyone but me having priority parking. Thankfully the stupid parent-parking isn't a legal thing, and I can simply ignore it at will.

      These are the same situations that have me refusing to move to a worse seat in the movie theatre because some handicap person has a friend that just has to sit next to the handicap spot thus requiring me to move -- after the lights go out. Sorry buddy, you're late. Your seat does not remain reserved indefinitely. Oh the number of fights in movie theatres.

      But really, this all comes down to the same thing. I'm not going to spend my days (parking, movies, my own business) making other people's live easier and my own life more difficult. Apparently, I'm not disabled, encumbered, or otherwise unfortunate enough to be given all sorts of free stuff from strangers.

      And that's fine. I don't want free confsideration from strangers. But I'm damn well not going to dish it out.

    26. Re:Time, money, expertiese by SqueezeKey · · Score: 1

      26 percent of 300 million is more than 75 million. If only one percent of that number meets the requirement you are laying out, that's 750,000 potential customers. Say you can get a thousand bucks from each of those customers (absolutely dirt cheap at the current going rates for equipment of that nature). Does three-quarters of a billion dollars perk a little more interest?

         

  14. Light operated Mouse and Keyboard? by GrpA · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What about the LOMAK?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LOMAK

    GrpA

    --
    Enjoy science fiction? "Turing Evolved" - AI, Mecha, Androids and rail-gun battles. What more could you want?
    1. Re:Light operated Mouse and Keyboard? by Darkness404 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm not sure that would really work. The reason being is that these people can use keyboards (as in, they have use of their hands) but its simply painful or slow for them to type. Waving around head-mounted laser pointers isn't going to give them more productivity. Sure, for people who can only move their necks its a godsend, but for the average injured geek, that isn't worth the trouble.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
  15. A better command structure? by argent · · Score: 2, Interesting

    verb-noun requires less typing

    Instead of "search forward left bracket leave mark search forward right bracket ..."

    You say "find left bracket change matching", which is the verbal equivalent of "f[c%" in vi.

    Not quite "change index", but THAT could be a macro for "f[c%".

  16. Cold Truth by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It is about the law of diminishing returns. It might sound cold. It might suck. But you really need to consider why Pizza Hut doesn't offer Pickle Chocolate pizza... The effort and cost to patronize the .01% of potential users just isn't worth it.

    --

    "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    1. Re:Cold Truth by russotto · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There's also a natural tension between making tools as useful as possible for the typical (able-bodied) user and the disabled user. Making a tool more useful sometimes means taking advantage of user capabilities which weren't being depended on before -- multi-finger touch-screen gestures, for instance. If you set up your system for the lowest common denominator you make it worse for the average user. If you try to include multiple interfaces appropriate for everyone from Stephen Hawking to Nastia Liukin, you'll never get a product out the door, or even out of the design phase.

    2. Re:Cold Truth by layabout · · Score: 1

      what you describe is what we are doing today. looking at it from the IT viewpoint, if you assume each IT person contributes 50k value to the economy and you loose 50k people each year, that is 2.5 mil flushed. 10% of that would make it possible to solve the programming by voice problem in 2-3 years. rather cheap way to stem a multimillion resource loss. almost as cheap as telling the disabled to go sit on a street corner somewhere.

    3. Re:Cold Truth by layabout · · Score: 1

      try instead, each person has their own UI device and that device talks to all other devices like phones, atm's, gas pumps etc. you want multi touch, buy a multi touch display brick. want text to speech, get a tts brick. own your own ui.

    4. Re:Cold Truth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. The % of elderly in the worlds demographics is going up up up. And while health is improving into early old age, eventually the body begins to fail, first one part and then another. So the demand will be there. And soon. If you outlive your youth, it will happen to you too. It's just a matter of time.

      Both MacOS and Windows have accessibility built-in. I don't think either is about "diminishing returns". Accessibility is HARD. If it were easy, disability access would be implemented six ways to Sunday in every OS and app, closed-source and free. That's why SourceForge is filled with apps that are easy to write: text-editors, programming languages, libraries, games, CD/Book cataloging apps, etc. Apps that solve hard problems (like drivers or OCR or science applications) are hard to get right, so few get started and fewer ever finish.

      If someone can come up with a way to make the problem EASY TO SOLVE then accessibility will become easy to add to OSes and apps, and it will get done. Just imagine: controlling emacs or vi with your voice because your hands don't work due to birth defects. What's the difference between holding the control key and saying "control" to type the text? Imaging trying to write an essay on "Metaphysics" in emacs without false positives of it thinking you're trying to invoke meta-key commands. Good times...

    5. Re:Cold Truth by Eil · · Score: 1

      It is about the law of diminishing returns. It might sound cold. It might suck. But you really need to consider why Pizza Hut doesn't offer Pickle Chocolate pizza... The effort and cost to patronize the .01% of potential users just isn't worth it.

      In the commercial software world, you are exactly correct.

      However in the open source world, people create, work on, and use the software that they need. It's the whole scratching-your-itch thing. The best example I can think of this is internationalization and localization. In the commercial software world, very few companies ever spend money writing translations for languages that aren't major languages in their core markets. That means at best you get a handful of languages for a given proprietary application, although I would guess that the vast majority only have one: English.

      Completely different story in open source. Any sufficiently developed software has little to no hard-coded language in it. Instead, most applications utilize a message library so that translations can be added easily and rolled in upstream. As a result, people who work in a non-English language can choose their language when installing their open source OS and end up a userland that's completely customized with their language, units of measurements, and other local features. You rarely get such a complete experience in the proprietary market.

      Disabled geeks should take this as an example of how to add accessibility features to the open source software that otherwise does what they need. No, perhaps accessibility features aren't as easy as adding a language to a message catalog, but the overall idea is the same. There may be plenty of fully-abled (if that's a PC term) developers who like to work on accessibility features, but only the disabled really know what they need. They are the ones that will have to lead the charge on developing frameworks for alternative interface methods and so forth for open source software. Everyone else will help as best they can purely in the interest of making the software better and making it accessible to as many people as possible.

    6. Re:Cold Truth by DavidD_CA · · Score: 1

      Yes, but there are no government mandates to support eaters who want pickle chocolate pizza.

      There's a lot of government mandates to make software accessible to those with disabilities, and that creates a number of opportunities for software developers who want to hit that niche market.

      --
      -David
    7. Re:Cold Truth by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      You mean separating out the interface part form the internal workings? You never know, it might catch on.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    8. Re:Cold Truth by Kjella · · Score: 1

      I can understand the desire that if you were to suffer a severe hand injury, you'd like to be able to continue being all geeky with computers. But personally I don't think that's what I'd really do, sure better accessability would make me suck less but I'd still suck. Without a good interface I'd just grow incredibly frustrated trying to get the flow of my mind through the trickle of my fingers. I think I'd just find a way to get by and instead focus on things that involve talking to people instead. It'd be tough but I think as disabled you have to accept that you've been dealt a new hand of cards (pun intended) and maybe play them differently.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  17. one word... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    girls

  18. Text to speech by Repossessed · · Score: 3, Informative

    Text to speech in Linux actually works pretty well according to the people I've talked to who use it, in some cases better than the windows options. (GTK integration is pretty complete to my understanding). Some complaints of stuttering though. Ubuntu, and probably others, even have text to speech available in the installer.

    The big problem is that the kernel likes to randomly drop one the text to speech modules thats needed for geeks who want to hear the start up messages.

    Braille readers are a much bigger problem than the text to speech in Linux, the old serial port ones work fine, but expansion serial ports don't work right for it, and those are getting hard to find. Very few USB braille readers have Linux drivers. (Which i don't get, braille readers + a command line interface seem such a good match).

    --
    Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite (TM)
    1. Re:Text to speech by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only problem I suppose with the linux one is that not all blind people are technically inclined. Having something nice for Gnome/kde or what ever would be a good solution.

      Text to speech for programming and editing should be pretty important.
      Maybe some other forms of input might be worth considering (if your missing a arm you might be able to hook up sensors or something, you could wave your ghost arm around to move a window)

      really...... lets just get that damn brain to computer interface working.

      Advances in this tech isn't going to only effect you when you are disabled - This is going to mean becoming a real life gargoyle (snowcrash) so much more possible.

    2. Re:Text to speech by Repossessed · · Score: 1

      Text to speech for programming and editing should be pretty important.

      That I know for sure can be done in Linux, my source of information on all the text to speech in Linux stuff comes from a blind programmer who uses it for that reason.

      --
      Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite (TM)
    3. Re:Text to speech by spiffmastercow · · Score: 1

      (s)he must be pretty bright.. Or at least have a good memory and a lot of patience...

    4. Re:Text to speech by Repossessed · · Score: 1

      I think that describes any programmer. But yeah, I can imagine trying to do a regex off of a screen reader, it makes me want to cry.

      --
      Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite (TM)
  19. Government safety net by Gothmolly · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Given that we're paying for a socialized government safety net, my advice is - use it. Sorry geek, you lose your fingers, you retire on government welfare.

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
    1. Re:Government safety net by tirerim · · Score: 2, Informative

      Assuming that you're talking about the U.S., Social Security Disability a) only covers you if you can't do any other form of work (so if you can't type, but can hold a chainsaw, have fun being a lumberjack), b) benefits are based on your current salary, so you have no chance to improve your situation, and c) are also a lot lower than your actual salary. According to my last Social Security statement, my disability benefit would be around 40% of my salary, which I could live on if I had to (I did right out of college), but not well, and certainly not where I'm living now, which is nothing at all like retirement.

  20. When did you stop beating your wife? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Given that some form of disability is almost inevitable, what's keeping you from volunteering and working with geeks who are already disabled?

    That's the equivalent of when did you stop beating your wife. Everyone has their own lives & interests - do not expect us to drop them to suddenly start developing accessible apps.

    The answer is simple: people with serious forms of disability are in fact the minority. Temporary disability is just that - temporary. Time resolves that issue on its own. Accessibility, as you seem to recognize given your unhappiness with speech recognition, is a difficult topic with actual expertise required. Few OSS developers will have that or have picked it up. The OSS community in general has issues trying to attract (& keep) talented UI people to create usable interfaces for normal users, let alone those that are disabled, which I imagine would be even more difficult.

    I'm not saying it's not a worthy goal - it is. But there needs to be some direction & an idea of what exactly makes something accessible. Not to mention that disabilities are unique, meaning what is accessible for 1 person isn't necessarily for another. Accessibility needs to come in at the toolkit layer & make it easy for developers to provide the semantic information so that the toolkit can do what it needs to automatically. Otherwise, you're essentially recreating the wheel every time you want to create an accessible app.

    In time, almost 100% of keyboard users will have trouble typing and using many if not all mobile computing devices.

    I have a seriously hard time believing this. There are a lot of keyboard users out there - I think we'd hear if there was a sudden disability that was affecting everyone. If you mean age-related issues, we may have to eventually face that. However, the elderly do make up a tiny portion of the electronics-using population. Then you also have to come to terms with that perhaps if you can't use the mobile device you have, maybe you should get one that better suits your needs. My mom wants a Pre for instance - obviously it doesn't suit her for all sorts of reasons, top of which is that the text on the screen would be too small for her too use & the keyboard keys too small as well.

    Furthermore, whatever effort is put into accessibility will be for the average user surfing the web, accessing email, etc. A disabled coder is too small a minority to target. As you see, the only ones that appear to be putting in effort are for-pay products because it's a niche that requires non-programmer collaboration with programmers & they can charge enough money to be profitable since the product becomes pretty necessary day-to-day for this niche.

    1. Re:When did you stop beating your wife? by layabout · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It was intended as a serious, albeit in your face, question. what I was hoping for was a serious answer. I don't expect you to drop anything

      Let me introduce you to a term "TAB" Temporarily Able Bodied. It was created in recognition that physical ability is temporary, disability is the norm. I'm disabled because my hands don't work right. I'm also disabled because I need glasses. Minority or majority doesn't matter. My question was trying to provoke thought about what's going to happen to you when you become disabled. age-related ailments will steal your ability from you. But also do you want to leave the future to be a radical shift in career because your hands don't work or a shift in how you work?

      As to the direction on what makes something accessible, there is a good 30 years worth of research on the subject in the library if people would only look. Is honestly simple concept of separation of functionality from presentation. If I need a word processor with a speech user interface, then I should be able to purchase a word processor and then purchase a user interface that does what I need. If a blind person needs a text-to-speech interface, then they should be able to purchase their own user interface. None of us should have to rely on adaptations or, as I like to call them, "brutal hacks" on the application.

      Every two or three years we do hear about and disabilities. There was Nintendo thumb and now Blackberry thumb and other hand disorders from playing too many first-person shooter games. It's all right in front of us. we also have the issue of elderly, as you point out. I'm not worried as much about the elderly of today but, what happens when you hit 60 and you gradually discover you can't do anything. No texting, no video messages, no anything. Think about that future.

      Also think about the implications of what our mobile devices are doing today. I've seen people advocate getting rid of voicemail because you can just send someone a text message. Or the only telephone you can use if you are blind is something that just makes calls and receives calls. These choices exclude people from the mainstream culture. If you are blind and cannot send a text message, you lose social connection. If you can't send a text message, you lose the ability to give someone a time delayed message the way of voicemail works. I do admit that it may be cheaper to warehouse disabled people but, it would be nice if we made a conscious decision.

      And as a side note, I was not able to interleave my comments with your text because HTML is not friendly to the disabled.

    2. Re:When did you stop beating your wife? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "TAB" Temporarily Able Bodied. It was created in recognition that physical ability is temporary, disability is the norm

      Just because you come up with a word, doesn't make it so. In fact, for the majority of their lives, most people are in no way disabled (or at least to a significant degree).

      At the end of the day, disability (especially one that seriously hampers functioning in a society) is a minority.

      As to the direction on what makes something accessible, there is a good 30 years worth of research on the subject in the library if people would only look

      Computer science as a field itself is about only really 40 years old. UI is even newer with significant attention coming in the past 20 years or so. So I don't see how there can be already 30 years of research with respect to software accessibility (not that there isn't any - just that there isn't as much).

      If a blind person needs a text-to-speech interface, then they should be able to purchase their own user interface. None of us should have to rely on adaptations or, as I like to call them, "brutal hacks" on the application.

      There are far too many things wrong with this statement. We live in a real world. Microsoft is never going to allow you to slap on a different UI to it's word processor, and with good reason (at least from a proprietary perspective). Replacing the backend is much easier. Then there's the added cost of maintaining such a split and supporting 3rd parties (potentially competitors). I support making interaction with society accessible as much as possible for the disabled. However, at some point you have to realize that your lifestyle will not be the same as someone without your disability & you will not be able to experience some of the technologies others do - for instance, in another part of this thread a user complained about not being able to use the iPhone due to his particular disability.

      Disabilities are different & present unique challenges and you quickly hit the law of diminishing returns where accessibility improvements you make help fewer & fewer people (until they may even start hurting others with disability).

      If HTML is not friendly to the disabled, then you're whole argument falls apart. You mentioned earlier that we need to separate presentation from functionality. That's precisely what HTML does. In fact, there's particular mention in the specification about how to use CSS & html to make accessible sites.

      None of us should have to rely on adaptations or, as I like to call them, "brutal hacks" on the application.

      They are not "brutal hacks". They are attempts of adding accessibility system-wide without requiring significant support from the application itself, which is the proper way of doing it for so many reasons. Could they be better? Probably.

      Then lets look at the flip coin. Windows 2000 & XP (can't remeber Vista right now) had the most horrible UI for disabling accessibility features (which were on by default). That meant pressing the shift key three times would enable it. Furthermore, the wording was extremely awkward so I never knew if it was turning off or not. Obviously this is MSs fault, but this caused an impact on more people than that accessibility feature helped.

      If you believe this is something that the open source community has been neglecting, do something about it (hire a contractor, organize a group of experts, etc). But do not try to make those of us who do contribute to open source feel guilty because we're not helping solve your particular problem with the limited resources we have.

      As for the elderly thing, I plan on being realistic. If I can't use a particular phone due to disability, then I'll use one that is better suited instead of complaining about how I'm being neglected. If there isn't one, then I'll use a landline phone or some other a

    3. Re:When did you stop beating your wife? by that+IT+girl · · Score: 1
      Generally, I agree with the sentiment of your statement. There is just one point I want to make about this:

      However, the elderly do make up a tiny portion of the electronics-using population.

      I think this number will rise sharply as the people who are in their teens, twenties, thirties now and use computers on a daily basis begin to age. I, for one, plan to use my technological devices until the day I die, if at all possible. That being said, I don't expect the computers and communications devices to be the same as they are now. It's continuously changing, and the problem may very well be dealt with by the time the majority of us reach our senior-citizen years. But the point of this article is that we need to focus on the future by starting now on these advancements, and we can't rely on the fact that few elderly folks today (who didn't grow up with these things) use computers.

      --
      10 FILL MUG WITH COFFEE
      20 DRINK COFFEE
      30 GOTO 10
  21. keyboard help tab by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    AM USing brain directly to type nowfullstop carriagereturn unfortunately little bits of grey stuff keep sticking to the keys enter

  22. Emacspeak by SL+Baur · · Score: 1

    My question to Slashdot: Given that some form of disability is almost inevitable, what's keeping you from volunteering and working with geeks who are already disabled?

    Nothing at all and I added Emacspeak to XEmacs supported packages just as soon as I was made aware of it. The demo I got from its author, T.V. Raman, made a lasting impression on me. Being blind doesn't mean you have to be handicapped.

  23. Supplementing traditional input methods by Lars512 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    As someone who's been managing RSI for some time, and still needs to be careful to avoid overdoing it, I'd be very happy for a way to supplement keyboarding and mousing with even limited additional input methods, preferably methods which used a different paradigm altogether.

    I've been checking out neural impulse actuators, like the one by OCZ, but it looks like they only provide 2-3 buttons, need recalibrating every time, and are only really supported for gaming. Does anyone know of similarly commercially available hardware? I'm aware of research systems which can control a mouse this way noninvasively, but surely it's time they came out of the labs.

    I'm also curious about the long-term effects of devices which detect muscle action. People who migrate to voice recognition can damage their voice from the new strain. Would your face start creasing or cramping after a long time using a device which relies on facial muscles? It seems like some form of non-muscular neural interface is the way to go.

  24. Well... by mellestad · · Score: 1

    Your main problem seems to be voice recognition, and all that goes with it...no offense, but this area is already getting millions (billions?) worth of research and the professionals can't even make it work...your best bet is probably to wait until someone invents it for other purposes and then adapt it.

  25. Getting wrapped up in the details by purduephotog · · Score: 1

    Some folks I've worked with get so wrapped up in the details or the fun of the project they forget the point- which may be what holds this up. Some of MS's interface stuff for voice and disability is pretty slick - but slick isn't functional and everything is still driven by the keyboard and mouse.

    Now I've seen some exciting hardware that can interface to the tongue to display images (poor res) but basically it's rewiring the brain for a different type of input channel.

    Who's got the time and money to build these? Not your average geek- and who's going to spend the weeks in deprivation to test it? Well, they might.... but not most folks I know. And if something goes south?

    The best approach is to have a brain trust- a site that a research can come to and, with NDA's in place (I have reasons for that) With those NDAs in place then the researcher can say something like "I have this hardware and I need to be able to do..."

    And thats when the power of the internet comes into play- the amount of research and pure power that can be drawn down to a single thread would crush through any difficulties- EE's, CE's, IE's, heck even your plain psychologists (if they hang out here) can bring talent to bear.

    My thoughts, of course.

  26. Then uh, why did you buy it? by tjstork · · Score: 1

    If you hate Apple so much, why did you buy the phone? You kinda got the gist that it was a touch phone from the ads, that was the gimmick...

    --
    This is my sig.
    1. Re:Then uh, why did you buy it? by Col+Bat+Guano · · Score: 1

      Why did I buy it? Because it's a good phone, and I like it.

      I do have 9 full fingers, and I can use it with my shorter finger quite easily.

      In fact in some ways it is a better way to use it - hold phone with thumb & middle finger, shorter index finger is good for scrolling and doesn't get in the way. Like to give it a go? :-)

      My post was about the irony of finding documentation labelled "Fingertips" when I didn't have as many as most. It was a -joke-.

  27. Bad premise by hendersj · · Score: 2, Funny

    > Follow the link for more background on this reader's query.

    Apparently I have a disability that prevents me from seeing the link referred to in the story.

    > Given that some form of disability is almost inevitable

    Somehow we got from 60,000-100,000 people injured either temporarily or permanently every year to "we're all going to be disabled". I don't see anything that makes this conclusion logical at all. It's almost as if the writer hasn't really done any research, and OH MY GOD MY HAND!!!!! AGHH!!!!

    --
    Insanity is a gradual process; don't rush it.
    1. Re:Bad premise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      disabled this option!

  28. Negative Experience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Please don't mod me troll... posting AC for a reason.

    Honestly--my experience working with visually impaired individuals in the past (university helpdesk) was so OVERWHELMINGLY negative... I'd ...go out of my way not to help at present. Four or five blind students, and university disability services giving us basic...legal threats to help them with their problems when it was beyond capacity of our helpdesk (and why would you threaten someone in your own university anyway?!)

    To boot--all five of them refused to use university provided services, and insisted on using their *own* tools. I don't mean JAWS. I mean they wouldn't use our mail clients and insisted on using AOL, MSN, hotmail, whatever. Instead of using student network drives, they'd carry around zip disks (urgh). Every time one of these assholes called, it'd be nearly 2-4 hours of wasted desk time on a call I wasn't allowed to let the techs refuse to support. I once had to waste three days of time documenting effort to get hotmail to change the tab order of their login screen because of the assholes at disability services... No--forwarding his email wasn't good enough--he had to use hotmail, and they can't change his interface because then he can't act independently or some shit...

    Over the course of a year, these five students accounted for nearly 3% of the quantity, and probably more than that in time of the calls (15K students, well over 40k incidents/semester)--and almost ALL of their problems were ones that could have been prevented. They thought they were special because they couldn't see, and somehow deserved support beyond the normal incident policy. Disability services basically made us support whatever crap they were on, even if it was in violation of campus IT policy. Old version of unsupported software? Too bad...

    I know there's lots of better people out there--but the taste has left me with such an overwhelmingly negative experience--I have no desire to assist that community ...at all.

    I'm just saying--maybe some of the community needs to watch the image it's broadcasting. If I meet a blind guy in need of support that isn't a PITA someday--hopefully my opinion will change... but I'm going to go in expecting the worst.

  29. Tools for the disabled are absurdly expensive. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I know a couple of blind and nearly-blind people, and there are 3 packages they can use, such as WindowEyes. The problem is, all three of the packages cost $1300 or more. Why? WindowEyes, for example, bundles in French, Italian, Serbo-Croatian and twenty-seven other languages. They justify the horrendous prices of this software on the limited market - there aren't very many disabled people, so they need to charge a lot for it.

    If you're a geek and you get disabled, you're out of work, buddy. Compassion is a word not in the business lexicon.

    If I worked for any of those companies, I'd hang my head in shame.

  30. This is a joke of a discussion. by tjstork · · Score: 1

    Because really, the problem is, you can't just go and "disable enable" a user interface. A user interface is a rich experience tailored to its users. If you really wanted to have computers that were enabled for the disabled, you need to be prepared to have entirely different interaction experiences.

    Like, blindness is the worst. Obviously. The whole you can go where you see it metaphor for forms is just wrong for blind people. What you really need, for them, is almost like menus were in the DOS apps of old - press 1 for this, press 2 for this... and so on. And, you need way more sound. Like, every keystroke should produce an audible click and different items should have different pitches so you don't have to wade through the a whole voice menu to do something. There's a million things you can do to make a user experience richer and tailor it to the user regardless of how many limbs they have... a load of details that you can account for, engineering to be done, and pretending that a few add on utilities or even tweaks to a U/I will do the trick is just beside the point. You need a whole new class of applications.

    --
    This is my sig.
  31. simple by binaryseraph · · Score: 1

    tin-foil hat should cover most of it.

  32. new great voice recognition software? by djdevon3 · · Score: 1

    "Oh Sexy Girlfriend Bonzai" nuff said...

  33. It's being done. Now! by Feldercarb.Frac · · Score: 1

    I won't get into discussions about the "nobility" of working to help our fellow man and I won't get into discussions about the "profitability" of developing for the disabled. If you are wrapped up in "profitability" or "nobility", then you're looking at the wrong entity for this discussion and you'll most likely never understand why a person would do what layabout is asking. Note, I did not say you wouldn't, but it's more likely that you wont. On the other hand, if you know someone who is disabled, in your family or not, then you may have a better understanding. I fall into the later category and have a company who's sole purpose at this time is to develop systems which will allow people with disabilities to interact with computers and with other people. While it's not a highly profitable business at this time, we have some items in development that could be very beneficial to people whether they have a physical or cognitive disability, or no disability at all. Our current development cycle has the first two systems coming on the market before the end of this year. The amazing thing is that if you think about it, building a system for the disabled is not much more difficult than a general purpose system. The only thing that makes it difficult is the way you think about it. And for anyone who thinks the possibility of becoming disabled is remote, remember...you're only one head injury away.

  34. it's not an evil conspiracy by jipn4 · · Score: 1

    Listen to what disabled users do, not to what you think they should speak.

    Even most user interfaces for non-disabled users contain serious problems. For disabled users, there are many more variations and restrictions, and the developer can't even use himself as a model and test subject.

    It's easy to say "do it better", but doing it better requires a lot more time and money given current tools. A single developer costs $100k-$200k/year, and to come up with a really good user interface takes many developers and a lot of time. It also takes a lot of time with users and user testing, something users don't seem to be too interested in doing either.

    Another approach would be the development of better tools and more automation in user interface development for the disabled, but that takes research funding, and there isn't a lot of that either.

    Even developing better speech recognition is not exactly lavishly funded anymore and there isn't that much of a market.

    Developers have to eat somehow. When they deliver half-baked solutions and inconvenient user interfaces, it's because they don't have time to do a better job or they don't even have the training.

    Furthermore, the UI necessarily comes second to the actual functionality: software consisting of a great UI for a non-working back-end is less useful than software consisting of a bad UI for a great back-end.

    So, I think while it would certainly be nice if more developers took user concerns and UIs more seriously, that's not enough. Good UI development for small target populations with many different needs means a lot of extra time and money,
    time and money that needs to come from somewhere.

  35. Ergonomics for Laptops or mobile users? by HockeyPuck · · Score: 1

    At work I've got an ergonomic keyboard, an ergonomic trackball, a great chair etc... However, when I travel, it's back to typing on the laptop's keyboard, and using the trackpad. While packing a trackball isn't a problem, packing an ergonomic keyboard isn't exactly a piece of cake. Coupled that with trying to type at a hotel desk using a hotel chair, neither which are ergonomic, I'm asking for wrist issues...

    Anybody got a solution to this?

  36. Wait, what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In response to point one, why does it matter what OS it runs on? You should check Windows/OS X as well. After all, something this important is worth dual-booting for.

    In response to your second point, what's wrong with speaking to the keyboard? You seem to think it's a bad solution, without providing any kind of alternative other than "make it easier."

  37. Change the system by Tinctorius · · Score: 1

    Probably somewhat related: I think the underlying system of "user" interfaces should be changed in such a way that window managers or terminals aren't talking to event or read loops, but rather to object models. I'm still trying to work out how exactly that's going to work for text editors and games, but it's definitely a step towards a more accessable operating system, among other things.

    The idea is that all applications provide a (possibly dynamic) schema of all their mutable objects, and an interface to interact with them. A layer between the application and the user will translate it into a user interface; it will be doing just a bit more than drawing windows and widgets (GUI) or putting characters in the right places (CLI, curses).

    If that 'UI' standard is made properly, then not only making keybindings will be easy and uniform, but so will making bindings between STT and actions. The bridge between the application and TTS (or braille output) could also be covered by the aforementioned layer.

    (btw, if there's any prior art on this, I'd like to know :) )

    1. Re:Change the system by flnca · · Score: 1

      Some years ago, I've developed a concept for the AI layer of my DELOS operating system that can generate UIs automatically. But it's mostly vaporware still.

    2. Re:Change the system by ratboy666 · · Score: 1

      You're just a bit late -- MVC. Note that MVC is not considered the best approach to the problem, but it was conceived when the first Smalltalk systems were created (in the 1972 - 1980 time frame).

      MVC: Model/Viewer/Controller

      The Model contains the specific application class(es). The Viewer queries the Model, and displays the state of the application (as appropriate). The Model can also "broadcast" to Viewer (generally, the Viewer registers an interest in updates to the Model). There may be multiple Viewers for a single Model.

      The Controller supplies new data to the Model. Again, there may be multiple Controllers.

      As to implementation: the Model should not have any concept of "UI". It should accept commands from the Controller, and be able to broadcast state changes that MAY be of interest. It should also support a query interface.

      There should not be ANY "mutable" objects in the controller, and only "cache" objects (if REALLY needed) in the Viewer.

      To continue with your example of an editor. The Model is the editor. It accepts commands, and perhaps has the idea of a "point". The "point" is probably going to be maintained as an association between the Model and a particular registered Viewer, because there may be multiple Viewers, and we would like each of these to have an independent "point". If the GUI informs the Viewer that a redraw is needed, the Viewer retrieves the needed information from the Model. If the editor is NOT using a GUI, the Viewer may well just be retrieving and displaying lines.

      MVC Failure?

      GUI programming environments (exemplified by early Visual Basic), made it easy to create UI elements and attach or modify code snippets associated with actions on those elements. This can result in rapid prototyping of applications, but completely loses the distinction between M, V and C. The Controller no longer exists outside of the Viewer -- it is directly bound into the Viewer. Since "normal" constructs in the programming language did not respond to messages (that is, an ARRAY did not respect the messaging protocol), it was easier to store application state in visible, and sometimes, invisible elements, that eliminating any distinction between Viewer and Model. Thus, it was not convenient to consider MVC as a design (except in name only).

      Of course, the eventual loss is that these applications can no longer be easily modified for other UIs, including disability provisions. Note that a "general purpose" platform can only suggest a MVC methodology. If this was FORCED by the platform, the platform would be quite restrictive. Because of this, current platforms did NOT enforce the paradigm, and the lossage was allowed to occur.

      (An Exercise left to the Reader: Compare and contrast MVC history to Web Browser history, with an emphasis on available development tools. How did the available Web development tools influence the direction of HTML?).

      --
      Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
  38. Re:Denial -you're retarded by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you're retarded

    The speed records for typing in the Guinness book of World records was english on DVORAK keyboards for over 20 years.

    there have been numerous studies on DVORAK being faster than qwerty.

    Some people are anal and retarded and don't like facts that upset their rigid thought patterns I guess.

    Amusingly, a fast qwerty typist can rapidly reach their full speed in DVORAK in under 2 weeks, how the brain does this I do not know.

  39. Dasher by LoudMusic · · Score: 1
    --
    No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
  40. When keyboards attack!!! by Klistvud · · Score: 0

    "from 60,000 to 100,000 keyboard users are injured every year"? WTF? They get bitten by their keyboards or what? I always treat my keyboard and mouse with respect, feed them and clean them regularly, and they have never turned against me.

    --
    Intellectual Property: an immaterial non-entity, most fiercely contended by those with no proper intellect to speak of.
  41. Building on existing SR engines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dragonfly is a programmer's toolkit for building on top of existing speech recognition engines. It supports Dragon NaturallySpeaking and Windows Speech Recognition (both only for windows, alas). It doesn't implement efficient programming by voice itself, but it seems like the right basis on which to build such a voice-programmer's editor.

  42. almost 100%? by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

    Nearly 130% of people will have difficult with basic arithmetic. And over 1% of people breath oxygen on a regular basis.

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    1. Re:almost 100%? by selven · · Score: 1

      Nearly 130% of people will have difficult with basic arithmetic. And over 1% of people breath oxygen on a regular basis.

      And 200% of people make a spelling error in each comment.

    2. Re:almost 100%? by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      I should at least get points for spelling arithmetic right.

      PS-oddly I have a problem where I often leave a suffix or even a final letter off a word when I'm typing. Anyone else seen that?

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
  43. voxforge.org by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    could use some helping hands... and lips.

    http://voxforge.org/

    Why Do We Need Free GPL Speech Audio?

    Most acoustic models used by 'Open Source' speech recognition (or Speech-to-Text) engines are 'Closed Source'. They do not give you access to the speech audio and transcriptions (i.e. the speech corpus) used to create the acoustic model.

    The reason for this is that Free and Open Source ('FOSS') projects are required to purchase large speech corpora with restrictive licensing. Although there are a few instances of small FOSS speech corpora that could be used to create acoustic models, the vast majority of corpora (especially large corpora best suited to building good acoustic models) must be purchased under restrictive licenses.

  44. yes well, yer wrong. by way2trivial · · Score: 1

    California has such a employment law for hourly employees- (grew up there)
    many other states have no such protections....
    my current state (NJ) makes no requirements for hourly staff to have breaks.

    --
    every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
  45. Where did he say he hated Apple? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Paranoiac.

    Worse, you're a paranoiac for SOMEONE ELSE.

    Worse still, IT'S NOT EVEN A PERSON!!!

    1. Re:Where did he say he hated Apple? by tjstork · · Score: 1

      Where did he say he hated Apple

      Uh, "Apple I hate you" in the title... :-)

      --
      This is my sig.
    2. Re:Where did he say he hated Apple? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In his subject line:

      Apple - I hate you!

  46. people make a spelling error in each comment by Klistvud · · Score: 0

    Which really IS strange, considering that 300% of world population is North American, of which 320% have English as their first language. What the heck, why don't you simply NUKE the rest of us? You've got the means, and God knows you've got the attitude too... Or, if nuking is not viable, what about modding us all Trolls?

    --
    Intellectual Property: an immaterial non-entity, most fiercely contended by those with no proper intellect to speak of.
  47. Whas has speed to do with disability? by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    Lets concede the very dubious assertion that Dvorak keyboards allow you to type faster (the fact that Usain Bolt can run 100m under 10 seconds does not mean everybody eating chicken nuggets will do the same, but I digress).

    At the end you have to type exactly the same number of keys to write a word, a paragraph or a novel, and a given finger, nerve or group of muscles will still do the repetitive typing, no matter which keyboard you use.

    What we need as evidence is peer reviewed, scientifically done research. If there is so much of it, go on, show it to us.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  48. And all fast sprinters are black. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    There are many other conditions rather than the ones you think are obvious, unless you can proof your point scientifically (freak isolated feats are not scientific proof) then your "evidence" is not such.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  49. What is keeping me? Why should I? by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    What about this: disabled people designing their own interfaces.

    I know it is difficult, but they are best positioned to actually effect change.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  50. Better tools for abled geeks? by jellomizer · · Score: 1

    Coding good interfaces is hard even for able people. and thinking about disabled people creates far more of a challenges, as different disabilities my conflict with each other.

    Text to speech and voice interface great for the blind worthless for the deaf. Making a Text to speech UI where you get good speech commands may not make a good visual interface. (A one dimensional UI model represented in 2d, is not efficient.

    The best we really can do is offer a good UI for the able person and sadly a way for disabled people to muddle their way threw, so they can get it done.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  51. Why not volunteer? by OfficialReverendStev · · Score: 1

    You somewhat answer yourself in the question: "what is keeping you from volunteering...?"

    The need to volunteer is. If I devoted my life to volunteering my family would starve and be forced to live on the streets.

    To ask a more reasonable question, why companies aren't investing more into accessible interfaces, it comes down to numbers. As many have pointed out, you're talking about a small fraction of the userbase who can't use the typical keyboard and mouse setup. But even beyond that, you don't even define "disabled". There are countless types of disabilities, each requiring specialized adaptations. You can't simply build an interface "for the disabled" because you first need to know how a user is disabled. This means that, in many cases, you're talking about a customized device. That's rarely cheap, even if insurance is involved. If the customer isn't willing or able to pay for it, nobody's going to make it.

    --
    A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. - Neitzsche
  52. gh, LLC by Ded+Bob · · Score: 1

    I worked long ago for the founder of this company (gh, LLC) when he was in charge of the Purdue VISIONS Lab. They may have some useful technology to use.

    The VISIONS Lab is probably defunct, but I found information about it.

  53. Healthy Gaming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    News on health and exercise related video games:

    http://www.healthygaming.com/blog/

  54. Gnome Accessibility by Taxman415a · · Score: 1

    Gnome has a decent accessibility framework and apps. Orca is the screen reader and it's pretty decent, but it crashes too much. When it runs, it pretty much works as well or better than JAWS or WindoEyes (the other option on Windows) from what little I know, but doesn't sound quite as good. Sun contributed a ton of the work for bringing Gnome accessibility up to the level it is at, I doubt it would be anywhere near that good without them. I don't think KDE really has anything remotely at the same level.

    There is no decent OCR software yet which is necessary for certain visual disabilities, but ocropus is progressing. There is definitely no decent speech recognition as far as I know.

    So yes, there is a lot of work to do, part of the problem is that accessibility is a relatively niche problem, and open source really shines on apps and projects that have wide appeal and thus a larger chance of attracting many eyes to look at the code and to help improve it. I'd really love to have an computer that could entirely be controlled without a screen using the screen reader software, but Orca is not yet quite up to the challenge. But at least it doesn't cost $1,000 like JAWS and WindowEyes and it's getting there.

    But the submitter's point is good, there does need to be more contribution to this type of thing because these technologies are incredibly liberating for people with disabilities. Even though Orca isn't perfect, you can sit a blind person down at a Linux computer with up to date Gnome setup with accessibility and show them how to use it and they can navigate web pages and interact with many apps that follow the Gnome accessibility API This just happens to be the area I know most about, the submitter, clearly is coming in from another area, but the benefits are similar.

  55. Handicapped? by TheLink · · Score: 1

    Seriously though, wouldn't disabled be a far more negative term for geeks than handicapped?

    After all in geek terms, if something is disabled it no longer functions.

    Whereas if someone is handicapped he/she still can do stuff, just needs a bit "extra" to equalize things.

    I found it rather peculiar when people switched from using the term "handicapped" to "disabled".

    --
    1. Re:Handicapped? by Capt.DrumkenBum · · Score: 1

      "Whereas if someone is handicapped he/she still can do stuff, just needs a bit "extra" to equalize things."

      I think most true geeks would be deeply offended if you compared them to Microsoft software.

      --
      If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
  56. Arthritis and gum disease by TheLink · · Score: 1

    I am not a doctor.

    But I'm curious - do you have bad gum disease?

    http://www.webmd.com/rheumatoid-arthritis/news/20090612/fixing-gums-rheumatoid-arthritis

    Maybe your immune system is fighting a stalemate battle with something and you are getting arthritis as collateral damage.

    If it's not the gums, see if there's some other persistent infection, and try to get that dealt with.

    --
    1. Re:Arthritis and gum disease by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Thanks, that's interesting. I don't have gum disease but you are on the right track.

      I have Reiter's Syndrome, it's an auto-immune condition which reacts to infection. It usually dies down after the infection has cleared up, but not always. Since I was undiagnosed for over a decade it did a lot of damage to my joints which can never be fixed now.

      They keep doing blood tests to check for infection but they always come back negative. They also keep testing for Lupus because it could be that too, but the tests for both Lupus and Reiter's are both unreliable and the treatment is the same for both, so it's largely academic at this point.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    2. Re:Arthritis and gum disease by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Would blood tests be conclusive though? I'm no doctor, just wondering whether some infections might not be detected by blood tests.

      Anyway many body builders seem to be able to grow stuff. Their joints and bones definitely do grow[1]. Takes a while, but they do.

      Glucosamine combined with chondroitin sulfate works for some people in making cartilage grow faster (or wear out slower).

      [1] Which is why I think it might be better to treat some "carpal tunnel syndrome" cases by just keeping the affected nerves alive and well (with stuff like methylcobalamin) till the body grows to accommodate stuff properly.

      --
  57. Geeks do bear gifts by MacVic · · Score: 1

    I read most of the comments with interest (having stepped in late). 'Layabout' first asked why geeks don't do more to help fellow geeks navigate around regular computers, when their limbs don't cooperate. It is really annoying when a sprained finger could mean no texting, or no email, for a week or more - imagine how it is when one has no fingers to begin with, or they don't respond the way the brain thinks they should.

    Actually, some of the really good software written to solve some 'disability' issues is, in fact, created by people who know what it is to live in a world designed for other people - emacspeak, JAWS, and so on.

    Still, it is the simple things that are really confounding. We have found, serendipitously or however, that gadgets like joysticks make cheap and workable substitutes for 'traditional' WIMP solutions like the mouse, and its fiddly little fingerswitches and scroll button add-ons (that look so cool till you notice they are really useless for someone whose fingers don't work so well).

    It would be really great if more folk, who have responded so deeply from their hearts to Layabout's questions, could step around and look at SKID, a Ruby approach to addressing such issues. Most of the code at SKID is written by students, who use this platform to use their imaginations in ways that regular code exercises do not excite, because these address real world problems, helping more people to freely and inexpensively use computers, when their limbs and sensory functions don't work the way that computer and peripheral designers think they do. SKID is a place to let your geekination flow - to virtually dump that keyboard, mouse, monitor and all the stuff that sometimes hinders more than it helps.

  58. Chorded Keyboards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All chorded keyboards aren't expensive.

    If you have a friend with working hands, a glue gun, and a dremil. joy2chord.sourceforge.net has code to turn any joystick into a chorded keyboard. so the cost of a chorded keyboard drops from ~ $200 to $5.