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Auto Warranty Robocall Scammers Busted
ectotherm writes "The nice people behind the recorded phone messages stating 'By now you should have received your written note regarding your vehicle warranty expiring...' — the ones who instantly hang up when you ask for the name of the company — have been busted. Fox News did a little background digging on the four people charged." Don't know about you, but I received three or four postcards in the mail from these scammers, as well as uncountable robocalls. The FTC says they cleared $10M since 2007.
...went something like this.
"WTH is this? Scammers?"
*Press 1*
"Hello, what's the make of your vehicle?"
"May I ask who I'm speaking to?"
*click*
--
After receiving (and hanging up on) a few more of these calls, I can't say I'm sorry to see their asses getting handed to them in court.
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Couldn't happen to a more deserving bunch.
Asked if I had seen a .. Sandra O'Connor... or something like that. I forget.
....to never run the same scam over and over? Oh right, because they are greedy crooks.
I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
I get the stupid post cards too.. Makes me wonder how they know my Honda warranty is going to expire? Despite the fact I purchased the extended manufactor 2 year warranty? The knew about the first year but didn't know about the extended warranty so I can only guess somehow they been digging through public records about car purchases or ca registurations. Sounds like complete invasion of privacy to me!!
However, I never recieved one phone call from folks like that... Hmmm
It was kinda obvious to me that this was a scam when they told me my warranty for the car was due to expire soon.
I don't have a car.
Waiting for an amusing sig.
I'm so conflicted... Fox News actually reporting something that affects me in a positive way? I don't know how to feel!
I know I personally received several hundred calls from these guys. I had numerous people tell me they had received the same types of calls. The FTC can stop patting themselves on the back, the fact that it took this long is embarrassing.
Its funny, as soon as the car warranty scammers stopped calling last month, I now get robocalls for some cheapo health care ripoff. On my cell, on the do not call list. So it begins again.....
I never understood how these scams work, they hang up on you once you ask anything, but don't you need to know where to send your money? If you just give them credit card info won't they need an address for their merchant account or whatever credit card processing system they have? Why does it take so long to catch these people, isn't it possible to just follow the money to the scammers?
What really bugs me about all this is that despite what were probably thousands of reports to the gov't, nothing was done and nobody really brought it up in the media until they accidentally bothered NY senator Chuck Schumer. Had they not stumbled onto his number, one wonders if they would still be in business.
We are all rather familiar with the notion of "cost of doing business" when it comes to fines associated with illegal and/or unlawful activities in business. Quite often, the fines and other punishment are so small and insignificant that it is not a deterrent but is instead factored into the cost of doing business.
This warranty scam activity was very VERY obvious that it would be shut down at some point. The fact that it went on for as long as it did was pretty amazing all by itself. Who was responsible for the slow response on this? Further, the engineers of this scam made a LOT of money from this. When compared against the fines and other punishments so far, was there a net gain or loss for these perpetrators?
My point here is that if there was a significant net gain, then the perpetrators won. It doesn't matter that they were shut down. That was a matter of time. It took long enough that they somehow managed to pull in a LOT of money. How much of it did they get to keep? Frankly, I think the government needs to take ALL gross income from the operation. (Note "gross income" before expenses and payroll and the like.) And they need to extract this money directly from the perpetrators. If there are any legal prohibitions that will prevent the government from issuing such punitive measures, then you can see very clearly and plainly what is wrong with U.S. laws governing business. (It would be an effective license to commit fraud and be shielded from punishment.)
I had this one company rep call me about how I had won 12 free magazine subscriptions for free - yes, that's right! FREE!. Made some 10 minute spiel about how wonderful it all was. All I needed to do was send $12.95 for some processing fee and I'd get my free, yes FREE! magazines.
I asked her, "If I won and my subscriptions are free why do I have to pay $12.95?"
To her credit, she replied, "Because they're free!" (Can't blame a girl for trying.)
Soooo, I reiterated my question a few more times until she hung up on me.
It feels good when I frustrate scammers at their own game. :P
According to ftc.gov, violators of the do not call list can be fined up to $16k per call (has the ftc ever fined anyone this much? Anything?) TFA claims they made over a billion calls. I say we hit them up for 1 billion counts @ $16k per call.
What I don't understand is why I, and so many others, got so many calls. I must have received over 30. If these crooks were in business for two years, and made over a billion calls, they were clearly calling everyone they could reach in the US multiple times. Isn't there some point where they hit diminishing returns? TFA says their mantra was "hang up; next" (perl?), that is to not try to convert anyone who sounded remotely skeptical. But if they give up on the sale two second in, why call that same person back, again and again? Had they not called back people they rejected, I suspect that people would be nearly so upset with them, and the FTC wouldn't have gone after them.
Yup. I even reported a handful of calls to the FTC (using their website) just a few weeks before Chuck Schumer declared war on these guys.
I got a letter back from the FTC telling me that they couldn't do anything because "I didn't provide them enough information". I gave them the time of day, the CID, and what the robo greeting said. But I guess because I didn't talk to a human, it didn't count.
This should be considered a major FAIL for the FTC and the Do Not Call list. Which is a shame, too, because the DNC has been a great success with this exception.
It's embarassing that it took the FTC this long to catch them, and to add insult to injury, it only took them about a month after Chuck Schumer made a stink.
I hope that after these criminals are tried, a second investigation starts to find out why the FTC had their head up their ass.
-David
I always take my car in for service at the dealership. I just trade for a new car when the mechanics there tell me it's time to replace the blinker fluid. The mechanics let me in on the auto industry secret that once that happens, it's only a matter of time before everything starts breaking down. It's saved me a lotta hassle. Sure, it's more expensive, but this is one of those instances where you get what you pay for.
I sent in a report about this scam several weeks before you sent yours in. They sent me a letter saying "Thanks for your information. We have received many other complaints and we are currently investigating the matter." I provided caller ID information (bogus though it was) and a URL of a website I found where people had been looking in to the same number. I also referenced a few similar calls my sister-in-law had received.
So... your report probably was incomplete :P
The real problem here is the phone companies. I tried reporting this issue to AT&T a few times, and found them to be singularly disinterested. They wouldn't even tell me who kept calling my cell phone over and over, trying to sell me the same thing over and over. The scammers were clearly robo calling as they didn't know *who* they were calling. I received from a few to several of these calls each week for several months.
Scams like this undoubtedly generate hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of dollars a year in revenue from long distance and 800 number services, which probably include helping the scam artists hide their contact information from their victims. The phone companies had no interest at all in this problem, even when clearly thousands of legitimate customers complained about it. Not only were they making money from the scammers annoying calls, but the phone company also offered me the chance to pay an additional monthly fee to stop solicitation calls. When I asked point blank, they admitted that the service would not stop the robotic calls about which I'd called to complain. In addition to that, the phone companies were charging air time to victims, when the robotic caller dialed cell phones (like mine).
The phone companies, all of them, are complicit in this scam, and should be jointly prosecuted with the scammers.
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
Network Foundations LLC. 33 North LaSalle, Suite 2110 Chicago, IL 60602 Tel: (312) 235-2400 Fax: (312) 276-8780 Email: sales@networkfoundations.com Florida Profit Corporation VOICE TOUCH, INC. Filing Information Document Number P07000116212 FEI/EIN Number 261281522 Date Filed 10/23/2007 State FL Status ACTIVE Effective Date 10/23/2007 Principal Address 22 PROMENADE AT LION'S PAW DAYTONA BEACH FL 32124 US Mailing Address 22 PROMENADE AT LION'S PAW DAYTONA BEACH FL 32124 US M Dunne 1209 Sunland Rd Daytona Beach, FL 32114 (386) 253-7131 Cant really confirm the last number.
These people robo dialed the hell out of the 202 area code, starting well over a year ago, and not ending until they were busted. I sat in rooms in DC where I'd get this call, and a few minutes later someone else in the room got it, more than once. There were, undoubtedly, many influential federal government employees, Congresspersons, Senators, an White House staffers also victimized by these calls to their cell phones, both government and private. Why did it take this long to put a stop to this? The world may never know.
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
I had to rescan his post 3 times before I found the missing "y"s, they didn't bother me at all when reading it... Good for you for noticing them but who the hell cares he missed them?
ics
No. See "Common Carrier". You really don't want the phone companies to be able to refuse service to anybody...
The real problem is the government's indifference — took millions of complaints over years for them to enforce the law...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
The real problem is the government's indifference — took millions of complaints over years for them to enforce the law...
Millions of complaints had nothing to do with it. IIRC, Senator Schumer got one of there calls and the rest is history.
Note to telemarketer: scrub congressmen from phone list.
Yeah, reporting these guys is usually useless. They spoof the caller ID info (this is where the phone companies should be atomic dope slapped) and the associates, if you get one, are well trained in not telling you anything that would be useful on a report. Full name? Nope. Company name? Nope. Address? Hell no. Return number? Nope.
In reality, if they were taking it seriously all the FTC would need is your phone number, the time of the call, and your provider. Then they could get records from the provider (ie. AT&T) and know where the call came from, who it's registered to, and so on. The phone companies make damn sure to have that info, because otherwise they couldn't get paid.
Which, of course, is why the FTC were able to move so fast once Senatorman got called.
Feel free to embellish on this script when you have a little time to play with their minds. Most of the dialog is paraphrased.
Caller: Hello, Mr. _______. Our records show your auto warranty is soon to expire.
You: I wasn't aware of that.
Caller: Would you like to renew your warranty now?
You: I suppose I should if it's going to expire soon. What do you need, the VIN number?
Caller: Yes sir.
You: Hold on. The car is in the garage. I need to go there.
Caller: OK sir.
(wait about one or two minutes, or until they wonder where you are)
You: OK, I got my shoes on, now I can go out to the garage. It's a detached garage.
Caller: Great, sir.
(wait another one or two minutes, or until they get concerned again)
Caller: Sir?
You: Hold on, I'm unlocking the door to the garage now.
(Wait 15 to 30 seconds. Idle chat with them to keep them on the line)
You: Shoot. This is the shed key. It looks the same as the garage key. I always get them mixed up. Let me go get the garage key. I really want this warranty.
Caller: Very well, sir.
(Wait one to three minutes. Idle chat to keep on the line. Maybe pretend to talk about issues with your lawn, etc. as you "walk back" to get your key)
You: OK. That was the right key this time. I'm at the car.
(At this point you can try, but you may be pushing their patience, to say "The car key is in the house. Let me get it.")
You: OK. I can read the VIN at the windshield.
Caller: Go ahead, sir.
You: 1... W... G... K... N or M...
Caller: Which one is it sir, N or M?
You: It's tough to see in here. Let me go get a flashlight.
(You decide if your flashlight is near you in the garage or WAYYYY back in the house)
You: M... 3... 4... H... J... 4... 2... 6... 8... 2... 0....
You: Can you repeat that back for me?
Caller: That's OK sir. I can't find your vehicle. What is it?
You: It's a 1974 VW Super Beetle
Caller: Don't you have any newer cars?
You: Nope. This is my first car and it still runs great for me. (You may even want to say it's been handed down to you as your first car and it still runs well for you.)
Caller: I'm sorry sir, we can't help you at this time. We'll take you off our call list.
You: OK. Sorry about that.
Caller: **Click**, or "Have a good day sir."
I did the last six lines for one of them once and I never received another call from any auto warranty company. They apparently took me off their list when I convinced them I only had the Beetle.
I had dinner with a guy who had his company's merger (in an obscure concrete-related industry) with a larger entity get reviewed by the FTC and turned down (all during Bush Jr's second term). He was understandably annoyed with the FTC, but his description of the FTC's operation was pretty stunning. Apparently they're pretty autonomous and aren't really accountable at all. He even had the backing of a household name Republican Senator with Bush connections and didn't get ANY traction.
My guess is that the FTC doesn't really give a shit about consumers and has their own agenda. There's probably legitimate reason to provide them insulation from political pressure, but probably not reason enough to prevent accountability.
I kept getting these scam calls on my cell phone, and I complained to the FCC but get I kept getting more scam calls. The FCC should have been on the ball about this long ago as they already have strict laws against automated dialing:
"(a) No person or entity may: (1) Initiate any telephone call (other than a call made for emergency purposes or made with the prior express consent of the called party)using an automatic telephone dialing system or an artificial or prerecorded voice;"
"To any telephone number assigned to a paging service, cellular telephone service, specialized mobile radio service, or other radio common carrier service, or any service for which the called party is charged for the call."
Title 47
When a tiny glimpse of a nipple showed up on TV they were on it instantly even though almost everyone already has one pair of nipples and seeing a third one on TV isn't going to harm anyone. Then there's shit like this where people run telemarketing scam and yank millions of dollars while the FCC just sits there with head in ass doing nothing about it. Perhaps they should change the name from Federal Communications Commission to Federal Censorship Commission because obviously they care about nothing other than preventing people from saying fuck on TV.
You call AT&T about a problem, and you should expect them to do something
Honestly, the phone company (AT&T, Verizon, whomever) likely doesn't have the information needed to solve your problem anyways. If you are calling because Bogus Warranty, Inc at 800-555-5555 called you, that's great but your phone company can't even verify that the number belongs to who you think it belongs to; they don't have that information - nobody at your phone company does. And to make it even better, the phone company has no right to access that information.
You know how when you get spammed, you can run a WHOIS search on evilspammingdomain.com and figure out who owns it? There exists no such tool for 800 numbers. Instead we have a list of hundreds of Responsible Organizations ("RespOrgs") who do toll-free registration. They - and only they - know who is behind the toll-free numbers. But they are under no obligation to share that information with anyone; hence they generally won't do it unless a subpoena is served.
Though of course the subpoena is useless because by the time someone has obtained it and served it, the customer of the toll-free number has already left for a different RespOrg and the RespOrg who was just served has already deleted the records.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
There are phone scams elsewhere but it seems not to the same extent. In the UK we no longer have a nationalised phone service but the regulatory environment seems to be more successful in keeping the worst excesses under control.
I sometimes get calls from automated systems but they show up as International on the caller ID. I believe that the regulations for automated call systems are stricter and enforcement harsher here so they only operate from outside the UK jurisdiction. We also get free caller-id if you know how to sign up for it.
Calls to mobiles are charged entirely to the caller here and mobile numbers have a standard prefix anyway so we do not have two of the elements of the problem.
I did get some random cold calls on my mobile a while ago claiming to be from my mobile phone company and trying to sell me a new contract. The problem with that was that my phone is pay-as-you-go so there is no contract to expire. I think they were just calling all numbers that were first registered 18 months earlier because that is the usual first contract duration.
The problem that gets the most coverage here is reverse charged SMS messages where people say they did not request the messages. That seems to have died down a bit now; I believe that was as a result of the regulator making the mobile phone companies get their act together in responding to complaints.