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A Mathematician's Lament — an Indictment of US Math Education

Scott Aaronson recently had "A Mathematician's Lament" [PDF], Paul Lockhardt's indictment of K-12 math education in the US, pointed out to him and takes some time to examine the finer points. "Lockhardt says pretty much everything I've wanted to say about this subject since the age of twelve, and does so with the thunderous rage of an Old Testament prophet. If you like math, and more so if you think you don't like math, I implore you to read his essay with every atom of my being. Which is not to say I don't have a few quibbles [...] In the end, Lockhardt's lament is subversive, angry, and radical ... but if you know anything about math and anything about K-12 'education' (at least in the United States), I defy you to read and find a single sentence that isn't permeated, suffused, soaked, and encrusted with truth."

677 comments

  1. Can't count by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    second!

    1. Re:Can't count by nicolas.kassis · · Score: 1

      No, it's 1 then many. There no number after 1.

    2. Re:Can't count by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 1

      Uh, that's grade school math. In high school they learn all of the other numbers:
      one, two, few, some, many, too many.
      At least, that's the level of many high school leavers in the U.S. these days. Counting badly on the fingers of one hand because they don't want to put down the GameBoy/iPhone or whatever they're jerking in the other hand.

      --
      Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    3. Re:Can't count by nicolas.kassis · · Score: 1

      nah the txters think 10 is actually 0, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0

    4. Re:Can't count by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      Actually you're right, there's no numbers after 1.

      It goes zero, one.

      That's it.

    5. Re:Can't count by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      I hope you're not the one with the Holy Hand Grenade!

    6. Re:Can't count by BobisOnlyBob · · Score: 1

      Your username is actually Yvan100000000 (10110000010011010011).

  2. Several Proxies by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Informative
    I couldn't get this PDF from the frontpage link so via Google Scholar, here's some help:

    From what I can tell, they all look to be the same length and size and hopefully are not older revisions of this paper.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Several Proxies by Red+Flayer · · Score: 5, Funny
      Bah, like we're going to RTFA on a Friday when there are much better, lower-hanging, fruit to pick.

      For example (FTS):

      If you like math, and more so if you think you don't like math, I implore you to read his essay with every atom of my being.

      And just how, pray tell, are we supposed to read his essay with every atom of your being?

      I mean sure, I could read his essay with every atom of my being, but wouldn't it violate some mathematical and physical principles for me to read it with the submitter's being?

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    2. Re:Several Proxies by grub · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Troll? Fucking mods don't know humour when they see it.
      Next time link to a video of someone getting a baseball in the nuts, they'll love that..

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    3. Re:Several Proxies by Gerzel · · Score: 0, Troll

      2 + 2 = Jesus and that is all they need to know!

    4. Re:Several Proxies by LordKazan · · Score: 2, Funny

      And Pi = 3. So says Jaysus!

      --
      If you cannot keep politics out of your moderation remove yourself from the Mod Lottery.. NOW!
    5. Re:Several Proxies by louiswins · · Score: 1
      Here, let me rephrase that for you:

      If you like math, and more so if you think you don't like math, I implore you, with every atom of my being, to read his essay.

      Get it?

    6. Re:Several Proxies by eldavojohn · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Bah, like we're going to RTFA on a Friday when there are much better ...

      I know you're mostly joking but this was a pretty interesting albeit lengthy opinion piece. In fact, he even busts into dialogue between two fictional characters named Simplicio & Salviati to illustrate his point. It's a very Plato/Caroll/Hofstadter sort of way to illustrate his point. Hell, I love this format so much, half my posts are in it!

      Anyway, after reading this, I am really eager for vdash.org to get its wiki up and running so that can be used to build engines and homework for students. Maybe even provide a hub for teachers to discuss interesting assignments? I'm sure the discussion pages will prove interesting if real academics get in arguments about proofs and math. I don't think the real payoff would be reinstitutionalizing the teachers but instead giving the students the free online resources to go the extra mile if they so desire. Save your Turings and Erdoses if you can't help everyone!

      Lockhart is definitely a dreamer and this isn't going to change public schools. But it might change how you as a parent get involved with your children and math.

      --
      My work here is dung.
    7. Re:Several Proxies by Red+Flayer · · Score: 2, Informative
      You've got too many commas in there.

      If you like math, and more so if you think you don't like math, I implore you with every atom of my being to read his essay.

      I understood what he was trying to say, but observed that there was potential for confusion based upon his word order.

      Being that I'm a bit of a grammar nazi when I feel like it, and that it is Friday, and that we all need a quiet chuckle on Fridays, I decided to try my hand a crafting a somewhat amusing joke based upon the lack of clarity in the summary.

      Does that make you feel better?

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    8. Re:Several Proxies by prgrmr · · Score: 4, Informative

      Simplicio and Salviati were characters invented by Galileo (based on real people) for his work "Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems"> discussing the Ptolemaic earth-centric theory of the universe, and the Copernican helio-centric theory of the universe.

    9. Re:Several Proxies by oldhack · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Quantum entanglement, duh. You went to American high school, didn't you.

      --
      Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
    10. Re:Several Proxies by BorgCopyeditor · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Like most natural human languages (those spoken by beings who are trying to communicate with one another and who exhibit the power of judgment), English allows some variation in what elements of sentences go where. No competent English-speaker who hasn't remained retarded in their sexual development at the anal-retentive stage, or developed a weird fetish by the daily practice of putting parentheses around symbolic expressions to coerce mechanical systems into evaluating them in the preferred order, could ever actually misconstrue this sentence as you are doing or pretend to be doing.

      It's ironic that in a comment on a story about the joy of pattern-making and pattern-recognition, you should reveal the ugliness of pattern-enforcement. Don't, for the love of humanity, be a lexer (of any languages but those that need it), and don't go around insisting others think like machines.

      --
      Shop as usual. And avoid panic buying.
    11. Re:Several Proxies by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 0

      Why don't we just give the content quickly ?

      It's unfair that kids have to do math. They should be able to avoid it, and only learn mathematics with proper patronage (and by extention, any science based on it, which includes at the very least all exact sciences, all the medicine subjects, psychology and a few others). Every child has the right to either avoid mathematics or receive months of instruction by a capable mathematician who enjoys himself teaching those kids.

      He ignores the obvious problems : this was how it was done in the middle ages. This resulted in tiny, utterly insignificant numbers of students. A country would have 2, maybe 3 mathematicians. The largest of countries might have 10. A country the size of America didn't exist, so let's say the US would have truly large numbers of math-capable people : perhaps a 100.

      You see mathematics is an art, and can only be taught, even to little children, by people who devote at the very least a large part of their life to it, and only as long as they keep doing so.

      Of course, there's no mention of the obvious downside : that about 50 Americans a year could learn maths by that system. If you want any sizeable portion of the population to have the option of actually studying or understanding science, this is not the way to do it.

      Yes the system sucks. The problem is that what he's suggesting, patronage, is not a solution at all. It's a much worse problem.

    12. Re:Several Proxies by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 1, Informative

      Actually the bible contains 2 approximations for pi. Neither of them in the New Testament, though. The bible also clearly states in both cases that they're approximate, not exact.

      One of them is indeed 3 (though Jesus never said that, it's in a piece about the architecture of the first temple, which, apparently had a round part). The other is a surprisingly accurate approximation for pi, and indeed a very useful one, since it is a fraction : 22/7. First 4 digits are correct (yes, I realise the fourth digit of 3.1428 is a two, not a one, however round(math.pi* 1000) = 3142, which means 4 correct digits)

      The fraction is really useful because it can be used in building and quick calculations about adding a circular structure without complicating the matter to the point where you need a calculator to avoid mistakes. If you're good at calculating in your head, though, you might give 355/113 a try, which is a very, very good one. I've heard of a physics simulator that uses 22/7 and 355/113, because they allow it to avoid the need for floating point alltogether in a few special cases, which will still give a massive speedup on current processors.

    13. Re:Several Proxies by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      It's ironic that in a comment on a story about the joy of pattern-making and pattern-recognition, you should reveal the ugliness of pattern-enforcement. Don't, for the love of humanity, be a lexer (of any languages but those that need it), and don't go around insisting others think like machines.

      I never did... so as long as you don't go around ascribing motivations and actions that don't exist to people whose posts you have read, I don't think we'll have a problem.

      Seriously... what bug crawled up your ass this morning?

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    14. Re:Several Proxies by elmodog · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the links. They were helpful.

    15. Re:Several Proxies by Tatarize · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The Bible says Pi = 3, in the 1st Kings (7:23). That's OT, not NT.

      --

      It is no longer uncommon to be uncommon.
    16. Re:Several Proxies by rhathar · · Score: 2, Informative

      I present "Man Getting Hit By Football" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV1LWhNpTJU

      --
      http://www.chaotickingdoms.com
    17. Re:Several Proxies by rhathar · · Score: 1

      I dun know where been getting yer 'edu-muh-kay-shun', boy, but where I come from pi means cherry!

      --
      http://www.chaotickingdoms.com
    18. Re:Several Proxies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      the value of pi can change with the curvature of space. imagine instead of a flat sheet of paper, you draw your circle as the equator of a sphere and the diameter and radius of your circle also follow the surface of that sphere, then the radius is longer than if it just cut through the inside of the sphere, changing the ratio.

    19. Re:Several Proxies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was rounded all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

    20. Re:Several Proxies by EaglemanBSA · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A pretty good approximation for a society that usually measured them using their forearms, if you ask me. Round 3.14 to the nearest cubit, what do you have? Very closely, 3.

      --
      Quiz: True or False -- On a scale of 1 to 10, what is your middle name?
    21. Re:Several Proxies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pi is 3, to 1 significant digit.

    22. Re:Several Proxies by djlowe · · Score: 1

      I mean sure, I could read his essay with every atom of my being, but wouldn't it violate some mathematical and physical principles for me to read it with the submitter's being?

      Not to mention the laws that would be broken attempting to do so: "Honest to God, Officer - He *implored* me to rend him asunder, I swear! It was on Slashdot! Wait, don't handcuff me, I'll show you! Is there an open WiFi access point around?"

    23. Re:Several Proxies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why the fuck does a bowl have to be perfect fucking circle? And don't the numbers 10 and 30 seem a little round to you? They only have one fucking significant digit each. Have you ever fucking heard of an approximation? FUCK!

    24. Re:Several Proxies by Tatarize · · Score: 1

      According to a number of Christian sites, in reality pi really does equal 3 and in the future we're going to get better mathematics that proves it. This would be a funny joke if it weren't really a sad reality.

      At this time the Greeks had it down to 3.142 or so.

      --

      It is no longer uncommon to be uncommon.
    25. Re:Several Proxies by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      The Bible says Pi = 3, in the 1st Kings (7:23).

      Because of all the "begats", they ran out of paper for decimals.
               

    26. Re:Several Proxies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Strictly speaking, it'd be rounding 31.4, not 3.14.

    27. Re:Several Proxies by plankrwf · · Score: 1

      Well, there is LAW, stating that Pi is 4...
      (At least, that is what internet told me a few years ago. On the other hand: a quick google doesn't provide me with a link).

      Idea behind this is not so strange, though: the background is in taxes. The age-old question: how to tax a piece of land in the form of a circle ;-0

    28. Re:Several Proxies by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 0

      Your first sentence was good, but the rest was a garbled incoherent mess, or simply wrong.

    29. Re:Several Proxies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too bad American fundamentalist Christians don't approximate - they take every word of the Bible to be the Word of God, not an approximation of God's Word, not an ancient replica of God's Most Holy Word using the best instruments they had at the time which were actually fairly terrible, the full and complete Word of God spoken by God to Man for Man to follow inerrantly.

    30. Re:Several Proxies by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      it says nothing of the kind, all the measurements in that verse were to nearest cubit. And suppose it even had given dimensions to the thousandths of a cubit, that still would not produce a correct exact value for pi, would also be an approximation.

    31. Re:Several Proxies by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      If that's his fetish... why not?

      Rule 34 baby!

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    32. Re:Several Proxies by cheftw · · Score: 1

      Pi is "3" if you use (pi/3) as your number base, you insensitive clod.

      --
      Always back up, never back down. ---- Think you're cool 'cos your uid is prime? Take mine, modulo the one digit integers
    33. Re:Several Proxies by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      The largest of countries might have 10. A country the size of America didn't exist, so let's say the US would have truly large numbers of math-capable people : perhaps a 100.

      But it doesn't matter, because nobody would be able to count them.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    34. Re:Several Proxies by edittard · · Score: 1

      The only reason it can't be construed in that way is because it's physically impossible.

      Take this mallet. I'll hold the fencepost, and when I nod my head, you hit it. Subtly different, and requires a bit of common sense. But I've seen written instructions so full of pronouns, subordinate clauses and run-on sentences that it was impossible to tell which "it" it was referring to.

      --
      At the bottom of the /. main page it says 'Yesterday's News'. Well they got that right.
    35. Re:Several Proxies by soren202 · · Score: 1

      Well, you would think that god would know the difference between 30 and 31.4 (in the context, the diameter of a molten sea is 10 cubits, and the circumference is 30 cubits). I can understand dropping the .4, but a whole cubit is pretty significant.

  3. Zeroth Post. by mosel-saar-ruwer · · Score: 0, Offtopic


    Pwned.

  4. Slashdotted by PPH · · Score: 3, Funny

    Evidently, someone didn't do the server math.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  5. Cue the other subjects by b0r1s · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The problems with K-12 education go WAY BEYOND mathematics.

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    Mooniacs for iOS and Android
    1. Re:Cue the other subjects by SomeJoel · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yeah, but I lost count.

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      <Complete your profile by adding a signature!>
    2. Re:Cue the other subjects by LordKazan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      and most of them can be traced to certain groups (*cough*fundamentalists*cough*) waging a 30 year war on public education, and people refusing to see and treat education as what it is: an investment in the future national security and economic stability of the united states.

      --
      If you cannot keep politics out of your moderation remove yourself from the Mod Lottery.. NOW!
    3. Re:Cue the other subjects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Queue.

    4. Re:Cue the other subjects by Em+Emalb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problems with K-12 education go WAY BEYOND mathematics.

      Amen to this.

      I'd say the majority of the issues, though, start at home.

      Too many families are stuck running a two-income home (for a variety of reasons) and simply can't/won't/don't spend the time needed with their children in the formative years.

      A lot of the rest, IMO, can be traced to schools not teaching children how to think critically, just to memorize stuff.

      And that sucks.

      --
      Sent from your iPad.
    5. Re:Cue the other subjects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think one of the problems is a subject that doesn't exist - logic. Something so basic and we don't teach it at all.

    6. Re:Cue the other subjects by PitaBred · · Score: 4, Informative

      Wow. Way to fail at correcting the parent. He was completely right, which is actually an aberration as far as my experience goes :( A queue is a line. If you cue someone or something, you give them the signal to start. So, cuing the other subjects is appropriate.

    7. Re:Cue the other subjects by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If everyone was smart, who would work at mcdonalds?

    8. Re:Cue the other subjects by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1, Informative

      it's called discrete mathematics.

    9. Re:Cue the other subjects by superwiz · · Score: 1

      Can you name one day in history that started that war? (I am fairly certain that I can)

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    10. Re:Cue the other subjects by grub · · Score: 3, Insightful


      If everyone was smart, who would work at mcdonalds?

      There would always be people at the bottom, no matter how educated everyone was.
      Lad: Would you like to discuss quantum mechanics? My thesis was about...
      Me: Just get my fucking burger.
      Lad: sorry sir, was this to go?

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    11. Re:Cue the other subjects by b0r1s · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Personally, I put the blame less on fundamentalists and more on decreasing importance of education in the home.

      There are dozens of examples (single mothers with multiple jobs and multiple kids who just don't have time to parent, illegal immigrants raising kids that accept no-skill jobs as manual labor as sufficient for a lifetime instead of working to get an education and work in a skilled field), but the basic problem is that kids don't believe that they need a real education to live.

      --
      Mooniacs for iOS and Android
    12. Re:Cue the other subjects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? Fundamentalists? The kind of people that home school their kids? They're to blame? Not teacher's unions? Not parents who treat school like a babysitter? Not the kids who graduate high school unable to read?

    13. Re:Cue the other subjects by LordKazan · · Score: 1

      december 7th, 1941

      what's your point?

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      If you cannot keep politics out of your moderation remove yourself from the Mod Lottery.. NOW!
    14. Re:Cue the other subjects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fail.

    15. Re:Cue the other subjects by mh1997 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      and most of them can be traced to certain groups (*cough*fundamentalists*cough*) waging a 30 year war on public education, and people refusing to see and treat education as what it is: an investment in the future national security and economic stability of the united states.

      American education was designed to fail. Read the book (it's free online) The Underground History of American Education by John Taylor Gatto. He is a former New York State and New York City Teacher of the Year

      http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/

    16. Re:Cue the other subjects by LordKazan · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Read The Fundamentals of Extremism: The Christian Right in America

      They've staged a long and protracted anti-education war in government for 3 decades.

      http://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals-Extremism-Christian-Right-America/dp/0972549609/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245437556&sr=8-1

      --
      If you cannot keep politics out of your moderation remove yourself from the Mod Lottery.. NOW!
    17. Re:Cue the other subjects by megamerican · · Score: 4, Informative

      Before you troll and bash "fundamentalists" with no proof you should read a few books on why education in the US is in the state we now see.

      The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America By Charlotte Iserbyt

      An Underground History of Education by John Gatto

      Or read the Dodd Report to the Reece Committee which investigated Tax Free Foundations in the early 1950's.

      --
      If you have something that you dont want anyone to know, maybe you shouldnt be doing it in the first place -Eric Schmidt
    18. Re:Cue the other subjects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      If education is an investment in the future, that would imply that I'm going to get a payoff for my financial contributions.
      When we couch the discussion in those terms, would you say that it's a "good investment" to spend 3x as much on kids with
      brain damage brought on by Fetal Alcohol Syndrome than on kids that don't have brain damage?

      Really, when you start talking about education as an investment in the future, that opens the door to discussions about how to
      maximize the return on the investment. Maybe I spend shitloads on kids that show promise, a little bit on average kids, and jack shit
      on 3rd graders that can't tie their shoes. How do you think the social justice set would take that?

    19. Re:Cue the other subjects by i-like-burritos · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If everyone was smart, who would work at mcdonalds?

      Smart people. Wouldn't that be awesome?

    20. Re:Cue the other subjects by superwiz · · Score: 1

      No, it was much later. As a matter of fact, if you look at old navy textbooks (I had a chance to browse one that my neighbor kept around), you'll see that they read like good HS math books that you wish you had. WWII did not end good education. Try again.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    21. Re:Cue the other subjects by geobeck · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A lot of the rest, IMO, can be traced to schools not teaching children how to think critically, just to memorize stuff.

      Even worse is the move away from competitiveness in many areas. I was a teacher for a while, and much of my teacher training was tainted by what was mislabeled "child-centered education" - basically don't do anything that might hurt the feelings of the most sensitive child you could imagine. Don't use a red pen to mark their work because that's an angry color; don't correct their spelling because that stifles their creativity; don't hold academic competitions because the kids who don't win (don't dare call them losers!) will be upset.

      This trend continued despite the fact that high schools started graduating functionally illiterate and innumerate kids, even though they had passed the courses that should have given them reasonable skills in those subjects. Colleges and universities expended their gradual entry programs (basically high school subjects aimed at those who came from a disadvantaged background) until first-year studies were assumed to be nothing more than a high school refresher.

      I left teaching mainly because the schools where I taught were basically big-kid daycare centers where there was very little learning to interfere with the political agendas of the administration and the school boards, but not before I subversively gave a few students the motivation to question what they were taught and learn on their own.

      --
      Find environmentally and socially responsible products on http://buy-right.net
    22. Re:Cue the other subjects by mustafap · · Score: 2, Funny

      But who would eat there?

      --
      Open Source Drum Kit, LPLC deve board - mjhdesigns.com
    23. Re:Cue the other subjects by Strilanc · · Score: 1

      Smart people would work at McDonalds.

    24. Re:Cue the other subjects by david_thornley · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What studies I've seen show approximately no difference between children who have been in day care and children with a stay-at-home parent. (Okay, there's some detail differences early on, but they fade).

      The important thing is the parents' attitude. Young children will emulate their parents, and will try to please them. If the parents make it clear that education will please them, and put enough time and effort into monitoring it to make that perfectly clear, and to be able to tell the difference between learning things and getting good grades, the children will respond appropriately.

      A parent who wants to encourage education, and isn't totally swamped with other things that he or she is basically incapable of parenting, can find a way to do so.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    25. Re:Cue the other subjects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmmmm . . . this must be one of those "crack smoking mods" I've heard about. Offtopic: relating logic to discreet mathematics when the topic is about the state of mathematics pedagogy . . . .

    26. Re:Cue the other subjects by timster · · Score: 1

      I'm also interested to know what your point is -- do we have to correctly guess before you'll make it? This could take a while...

      --
      I have seen the future, and it is inconvenient.
    27. Re:Cue the other subjects by alcourt · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Much earlier. Tennessee v Scopes.

      While there was a moral victory for science educators at showing the issues in trying to restrict science education, most discussions I've read of the outcome of the trial point out that the end result was removing from textbooks significant material that was considered offensive.

      This changed dramatically in 1957 with Sputnik. There was a brief rush to teach more advanced technical subjects. Beyond that date, I have anecdotes rather than more solid information about the state of education.

      In math education, many people deride and criticize the New Math movement for focusing on correctness of technique over the answer. This despite the fact that in advanced math, all emphasis was on the technique. A sign error in a multiplication in a calculus class would likely lose a point or two, but would be unlikely to cost you all points in the problem if you showed understanding of the calculus involved. It also helped result in geometry being taught as a mathematics course instead of an engineering course (with theorems and proofs).

      Yet despite that, New Math is often cited as the end of advanced math in schools.

      I will agree that elementary math education has significant issues. I had extreme objections to the math that the public schools tried to teach in the past five years. I objected strongly to the fact that geometry was changed from a mathematics course to an engineering course (no work on theorem proof and studying math as a system of making proofs from axioms and previously proven theorems.)

      --
      "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend unto the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire
    28. Re:Cue the other subjects by Captain+Splendid · · Score: 5, Funny

      But who would eat there?

      Feature, not a bug.

      --
      Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
    29. Re:Cue the other subjects by mopower70 · · Score: 1

      The "woosh" there was damn near deafening.

    30. Re:Cue the other subjects by Narishma · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If everyone was smart, who would work at mcdonalds?

      Robots obviously.

      --
      Mada mada dane.
    31. Re:Cue the other subjects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dunno, smart people? Duh.

    32. Re:Cue the other subjects by superwiz · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Well, the original reference was about to the rise of influence of religion on public debate in this country. So my question was essentially "what triggered that"?

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    33. Re:Cue the other subjects by superwiz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Brown v Scopes was actually still a process of deliberation. It was still a time when debate was seen as a truth-seeking exercise (as opposed to today's attempt at proving the other side irrelevant by proving that their position has a flaw).

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    34. Re:Cue the other subjects by johnlcallaway · · Score: 1
      Here ... let me correct that for you

      Too many families are under the mistaken believe they have to have a full-time two-income home (for a variety of reasons) and simply can't/won't/don't spend the time needed with their children in the formative years.

      The actual disposable income that a second income, full-time wage earner provides to a home is much lower than that second check. Two income families often eat out more, require day care facilities for their kids when the kids are not in school, have a second car, lose vacation time due to 'half days' and child sick days, have less time to spend together and spend extravagantly when they do rather than finding simple and free things to do.

      I'm not saying two incomes aren't necessary, but it's the amount and timing of the second income that is often not given enough thought. My first wife didn't work the first two years after she had our first child, then went to work three evenings a week, two of which were alternating weekends, so that we didn't need day care. It wasn't a lot of pay, but it helped.

      During that time, she went to evening classes to get her RN license. As our kids got older, she was able to work those three evenings as a nurse instead of a store clerk, doubling her salary. Once the kids were old enough, and didn't really want to spend time with their parents anymore, she was able to work full time.

      A recent double income couple I know lamented about his working so much and not being able to quit because no one would pay him as much. After talking with him, I showed him how much money they were spending eating out, and how finding cheaper places to eat and forgoing the alcohol, appetizers, and desert and making inexpensive, quick meals at home would reduce his expenses enough that he could afford the other job at the lower pay. His only cost?? A happier family life.

      --
      I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
    35. Re:Cue the other subjects by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      and most of them can be traced to certain groups (*cough*progressives*cough*) waging a 50 year war on public education, and people refusing to see and treat education as what they think it is: an investment in the future new world order, which requires a compliant and ignorant populace.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    36. Re:Cue the other subjects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gah, no mod points. I was going to post that. For more information, see Manna.

    37. Re:Cue the other subjects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If everyone was smart, who would eat at mcdonalds?

      fixed. Also, problem solved.

    38. Re:Cue the other subjects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      If everyone was smart, who would work at mcdonalds?

      You're right. See, we did an experiment once. A whole bunch of Alphas, and only Alphas, were put on an island. With no Epsilons to do Epsilon work, some of the Alphas had to do it. Well, they didn't like it at all, doing work beneath them. In the end, they revolted and full civil war broke out. Because of that, every society needs few Alphas, and more Betas, Gammas, Deltas, and Epsilons. Having too many Alphas would contribute to unrest and the downfall of civilization. Only by embracing the ideals of this Brave New World can we avoid such troubles.

    39. Re:Cue the other subjects by LordKazan · · Score: 1

      That is a rather accurate indictment of
      1) Social promotion
      2) Precious Snowflakism.

      --
      If you cannot keep politics out of your moderation remove yourself from the Mod Lottery.. NOW!
    40. Re:Cue the other subjects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You may be on to something. If we could teach robots to identify and kill dumb people ...

      I'd worry about them organizing a resistance effort, but let's face it, they'd be too dumb to actually do it.

    41. Re:Cue the other subjects by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Smart people. It would be great.

      --
      Qxe4
    42. Re:Cue the other subjects by rlseaman · · Score: 1

      This reminds me of a letter to the editor I wrote back in the day about the Arizona standardized AIMS test:

      http://www.tucsonweekly.com/tucson/mailbag/Content?oid=1066326

      Ignoring off topic comments about McDonald's, this is really a question raised in books like, say, "The Razor's Edge". What we do for employment does not ultimately define who we are. Stephen Jay Gould also definitively rejects the premise of "smartness" in his "Mismeasure of Man".

      And, of course, the proper business model for staffing entry level jobs such as McDonald's is to provide a way for employees to work the counter or the grill for a few years and then move on to better paying careers.

    43. Re:Cue the other subjects by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      Read The Fundamentals of Extremism: The Christian Right in America

      They've staged a long and protracted anti-education war in government for 3 decades.

      Bah! Pure hate-filled fear-mongering garbage.

      Try this one instead, if you want to be a real history of public education in America: http://www.amazon.com/deliberate-dumbing-down-america-Chronological/dp/0966707109/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245441759&sr=1-1

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    44. Re:Cue the other subjects by mcmonkey · · Score: 1

      How is geometry taught as engineering?

      Geometry without axiom/theorem/proof isn't engineering, it's just drawing shapes.

    45. Re:Cue the other subjects by Ritchie70 · · Score: 1

      I would point out that the vast majority of senior McDonald's executives started out in a restaurant.

      --
      The preferred solution is to not have a problem.
    46. Re:Cue the other subjects by CajunArson · · Score: 1

      In your "fundamentalists" group I sincerely hope you are also adding in all the left-wing teachers unions and academics who REALLY run the school system.
      Modern educators hate things like objective tests since not everybody does equally well, and they desperately want to eliminate competition from schools since it is considered to promote terrible things like capitalism. When your math teacher only cares about "feelings" and not objective laws of mathematics, it doesn't matter that he followed his Union leader's instructions to vote for Obama, you'll still get morons coming out of the school system.

      --
      AntiFA: An abbreviation for Anti First Amendment.
    47. Re:Cue the other subjects by oldhack · · Score: 2, Funny

      Fool!!! You gave up the crazy mad teacher money?

      --
      Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
    48. Re:Cue the other subjects by PPH · · Score: 1

      Kiss my shiny metal ass.

      And kill all humans.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    49. Re:Cue the other subjects by vux984 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I would point out that the vast majority of senior McDonald's executives started out in a restaurant.

      The ratio of McDonald's executives to Mcdonald's grill / fry / sandwich / cashier persons is pretty daunting. Ultimately only a handful can rise to executive level. Even if everyone wanted to and was capable of the job their isn't room for everyone to advance.

    50. Re:Cue the other subjects by zeropointburn · · Score: 2, Interesting

      By teaching how, rather than why.
      "Here is how to find some property of a right triangle" rather than "Here are the qualities of a right triangle. What can you find using that, and why?"

      While that method is useful in learning how to apply some given formula, it is useless in learning how to derive a formula or understand which one to use and why. Modern US algebra students might be able to tell you the square footage of pen they can construct with a given length of fence. Very few would be able to reverse that rote equation and determine how much fence they need for a certain size of pen (or for a circular pen). If we were taught how to build that basic formula, we would recognize that it is the same problem with a different variable and be able to adjust the formula effortlessly and correctly.

      --
      -1 raving lunatic; +6 subGenius... Things even out...
    51. Re:Cue the other subjects by jacoby · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Of course, that group has a higher percentage than average of home-schoolers.

      And those home-schoolers tend to get much more out of their education than average.

      But go ahead with your beliefs.

    52. Re:Cue the other subjects by zeropointburn · · Score: 1

      self-reply, sorry...
      to mcmonkey:
      I went back and re-read your post only to realize that my borked display covered up the second half of your comment. What I should have said would have included the mathematician's idea that engineering is focused on how, while math is focused on how, why, when, etc. In other words, the current method teaches one how to use rote formulas (as might be useful in engineering) without learning how to apply or modify those formulas when the situation changes (which would be a serious drawback to an actual engineering student). In fact, engineering courses are more likely to teach you how to do math, instead of just how to use the tools developed by others (when compared to high-school math).

      --
      -1 raving lunatic; +6 subGenius... Things even out...
    53. Re:Cue the other subjects by hardwarejunkie9 · · Score: 1

      and most of them can be traced to certain groups (*cough*fundamentalists*cough*) waging a 30 year war on public education, and people refusing to see and treat education as what it is: an investment in the future national security and economic stability of the united states.

      I think you're missing the point and wonder if it's possible that you haven't read the article fully. The state that education is in can't be simply blamed on one group and left to lie. Sure, some fundamentalist groups are busy fighting a nonsensical war on science and sexual education. However to claim that they have drug down math education is an outright red herring argument. Other groups may be just as much to blame. To quote "The Two Cultures of Mathematics" by W.T. Gowers, there was a cited cased from C.P. Snow as follows "A good many times I have been present at gatherings of people who, by the standards of the traditional culture, are thought highly educated and who have with considerable gusto been expressing their incredulity at the illiteracy of scientists. Once or twice I have been provoked and have asked the company how many of them could describe the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The response was cold: it was also negative. Yet I was asking something which is about the scientic equivalent of: Have you read a work of Shakespeare's?" Who is to say that the sort of ignorance demonstrated by these people is not also to blame? The case this particular article points out is that there is a particular cultural ignorance of mathematics in both conceptual and practical understanding. I'm sorry, but the issue at hand cannot be simply addressed by setting up the /. whipping boy of the ignorant right wing fundamentalist stereotype and giving him a good flaying.

      --
      I like losing arguments, it just means that I can take your point and make it my own.
    54. Re:Cue the other subjects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and most of them can be traced to certain groups (*cough*fundamentalists*cough*) waging a 30 year war on public education

      Yeah, it's all the fault of those bitter, gun-clinging church-goin' folks. Nothing to do with one of the most entrenched, self-interested political bodies of the hard-left.

      Yeah, yeah. -1 Flame bait. Also +1 True.

    55. Re:Cue the other subjects by geobeck · · Score: 1

      Fool!!! You gave up the crazy mad teacher money?

      Worse: I gave up the crazy mad teacher holidays. How am I supposed to do anything with only three weeks a year?!

      --
      Find environmentally and socially responsible products on http://buy-right.net
    56. Re:Cue the other subjects by treeves · · Score: 1

      Why?

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    57. Re:Cue the other subjects by nine-times · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What's wrong with smart people working in the service industries?

      That's somewhat of a rhetorical question, but it really isn't a great thing that we have a defacto class system based on keeping some people ignorant and poor while others enjoy luxury. We assume that working in a restaurant should be a job of lesser human beings who aren't deserving of respect, and we've ensured that those jobs don't pay a livable wage.

      We complain about foreigners stealing our jobs, and we complain that poor people are so filled with vice that they don't pull themselves up by the bootstraps. Meanwhile, we make sure our economy is filled with jobs that can't provide what we consider an acceptable quality of life, and we close off routes for upward mobility wherever we can.

      And if smart people did work at McDonalds, their intelligence and education still wouldn't be a complete waste. They'd still probably be better citizens, run the restaurant better, and maybe get my order right every once in a while. And who knows, maybe one of them would someday revolutionize the food service industry with innovative new ideas.

    58. Re:Cue the other subjects by SilverEyes · · Score: 1

      I couldn't tie my own shoes until 4th grade. Until then it was Velcro all the way.

      --
      Interesting.
    59. Re:Cue the other subjects by Secret+Rabbit · · Score: 1

      True. But, people still go into those subjects now don't they. What is the health of Maths at large in society again? Seriously, when it comes to Maths (and Physics for that matter) you're lucky to find 20 or so in any of the majors programs IN ALL YEARS COMBINED (undergrad). Can you say the same for ANY other subject? I think not.

    60. Re:Cue the other subjects by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If everyone were generally qualified for interesting jobs, then boring jobs would pay much, much better. And interesting jobs would pay poorly.

      That already happens with academia: the salaries at research institutions are often less than those in community colleges, simply because the former are more interesting jobs.

    61. Re:Cue the other subjects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      This makes me so very sad.

    62. Re:Cue the other subjects by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 1

      I think you actually have it reversed somewhat. Until recently, the children of the poor didn't get much of an education at all. Literacy rates were lower, there was a great deal more employment available in agriculture and manufacturing, etc. The idea that the majority of the population needs a college degree to make a living is a recent one. And the domestic "culture of education" was never universal; what's happened is that even the poor now have aspirations for careers for their children in the middle class (and, more troublingly, fewer well-rewarded alternatives.)

    63. Re:Cue the other subjects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Before you troll and bash "fundamentalists" with no proof

      But it's easier to just blame "teh fundies!!1!" (which a majority of people on Slashdot, it seems, have a hard-on for doing) rather than look at the real causes of problems in our schools.

    64. Re:Cue the other subjects by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      I have to disagree. Maybe you come from a different part of the country than I do (California), but at least here, the fundamentalists have virtually no power, and our schools system is as much of a disgrace as any where. The problems here are not fundamentalists. It is that the nanny state realized that if you want to capture the minds of the people, it is best to indoctrinate them when they are young. What we have is an orphanage state. From the fact that most children spend more waking hours in the care of the state than their biological 'parents'. To the fact that an increasing number of children are fed more meals by the state than by their 'parents'. To the fact that social promotion is the standard. The list of problems goes on and on. Most of the end up surrounding the fact that the public education is a sacred cash cow. Heck, just this week, people were defending my complain that schools who claim to be underfunded in my city can afford to maintain very fancy stadiums and one even has an amusement park style water slide.

      Fundamentalist are not even on the radar with the problems here.

    65. Re:Cue the other subjects by hurfy · · Score: 4, Funny

      But bugs already DO, don't they?

    66. Re:Cue the other subjects by nine-times · · Score: 1

      I'm ok with that. I just don't think a good education (not vocational training, but real education) is ever a waste, even on a janitor. Also, I think that one of our economic aims should be to enable everyone to make a livable wage, i.e. enough to have a modest but decent place to live and to be able to afford nutritious food for themselves and their families. We might not succeed, and even if everyone made a livable wage they still might not spend the money well, but I still think that should be the aim: dignity for all.

    67. Re:Cue the other subjects by mctk · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Insightful? Really? Usually for satire, you use the Funny mod. Either myself or the mods are misunderstanding, but I'll respond anyways because this commonly heard quote has *layers* of stupidity. First, the simplest. If everyone was smart, *no one* would work at McDonald's because everyone would realize what shit food it is and stop eating there.

      Is this actually an argument for the promotion of ignorance? No, it's not. It's a way for us to confirm our belief in the American Meritocracy. I don't want to work at McDonald's, that's why I did my homework. Everyone had an equal chance in school. It's what we tell ourselves to help us sleep at night while others starve to death, a shame on our abundant society if ever there was one. But not everyone has an equal chance in school. The inequities are everywhere and in plain sight. If you go to visit schools in China, you will have an escort choose which schools to see. In the US, you can get a visitor pass from any school, any day of the week. You can visit the affluent, suburbian school and the rundown, ghetto school in the same day, with no special permission. At least the Chinese recognize the injustices as shameful and try to hide them. We, however, are shameless. To discuss a solution is to abandon our illusion. And, hey, somebody's gotta clean the toilets, am I right? Eh?

      Finally, the comment betrays the truth of the education system. It's an economic sorting engine. It's a drawn-out college entrance exam. The truth is, we need factory workers. Why do you think we cram active children into seats in small, almost windowless rooms and drown them in rote, mindless exercises? We could ask why dropout rates are so high. We could ask why there are disparities in grades between economic and cultural groups. We could really question the goals of this machine we've built. We could ask you what you could possibly have against a smarter, more informed populace. But, hey, somebody's gotta wash the dishes, am I right? Eh?

      --
      Paul Grosfield - the quicker picker upper.
    68. Re:Cue the other subjects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but if everyone was smarter, perhaps McDonalds wouldn't be such a shitty place to eat or work.... hrmm, think about that

    69. Re:Cue the other subjects by CorporateSuit · · Score: 1

      and most of them can be traced to certain groups (*cough*fundamentalists*cough*)

      Yes, because everyone knows that you cannot learn Math until you accept evolution as fact..? Wait, what are you trying to say?

      It's the "progressive" system that says that children cannot be graded and all children must be treated equally, as the least common denominator, that are screwing up the education system. Ignoring the focuses of challenge and achievement lower test scores in boys and girls, respectively. That's not even the cause of it -- just a symptom. It's apathy, greed, selfishness, and laziness up the entire educational chain (to the very top) that has put education in its sorry state. These are not consequences of fundamentalist ideals. How on earth did you come up with "fundamentalists" as a reason? Close your eyes and use a dartboard? Do you just go about blaming bad happenings on random things you don't like?

      and the recession can be traced back to certain groups (*cough*Kids texting while driving*cough*)

      --
      I am the richest astronaut ever to win the superbowl.
    70. Re:Cue the other subjects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Absolutely positively false. The problem started in the 1960's with liberal educational policy. No fundamentalist supports Whole Language studies, or Multiculturalism, or Reduce, Reuse, Recycle programs, Alternative Family studies or the multitude of other experimental liberal educational programs that have been foisted on the public schools ad infinitum. Real fundamentalists don't medal in the public school system, they pull their kids out and send them to private schools, and the liberals whine about this, harass the fundamentalists and try to outlaw alternatives like homeschooling or require private schools to use the same garbage as curriculum. Your ignorance is absolutely profound and your view is positively bigoted and revisionist.

    71. Re:Cue the other subjects by ittybad · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'm a teacher. Unlike many of my colleagues, and unlike you, I have trouble with the assertion that the most important thing is the parent's attitude. I have had parents who highly believe in the value of education begging me for help with their failing students. Alternatively, I have students who claim their parents do not care (and I believe this to be on many accounts) and yet some of those students do very, very well (I was one of those).

      What it REALLY comes down to, the REALLY important thing, is the motivation of the student. If the student wants to succeed, they will find the way to success (granted there are not too many institutional barriers to break through).

      --
      No single raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood.
    72. Re:Cue the other subjects by uncqual · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Agreed...

      However, I think it's unfair to specifically single out these groups without including what seems to me to be a "lax" attitude by parents (including college educated parents) in middle-class homes where the kid's great-grandparents (or earlier) lived in the US (having immigrated or having been born in the US). In the public middle-class schools these kids go to, parents complain that poor Jason just doesn't have enough time after school for all his activities and his life is so stressful so the schools should cut back on expectations (including the amount of homework). Or, when their sweet Heather is called out at school for behavior problems, her parents raise a ruckus about how the teacher picks on poor Heather (when I was a kid [get off my lawn] it was assumed it was me who had the problem, not the teacher -- unless a lot of parents were complaining bitterly about one particular teacher).

      Of course, all this has given us public school teachers who are willing to accept this lax attitude and have low achievement expectations -- which results in a vicious cycle.

      From a practical standpoint, the primary source of effective practicing engineers and scientists is going to be middle class households with educated parents -- unfortunately, many of these families are/have raised soft kids who feel entitled to get whatever they want just because "I want it" and don't expect to "work" for it.

      At this point, I fear the US's only hope is the legal immigrants from India and China (in particular, due to their numbers) whose parents actually believe that their childrens' main "job" is getting a good education and don't mind that the kids sometimes feel some stress about it. This is not a terrible thing except that as the US builds up more and more deadwood (all of whom get to vote, but most of whom will pay few taxes due to their limited income producing potential) we cross the tipping point where 5% are paying the other 95% to exist - and the 95% keep trying to get more from the 5% until it all collapses when a few of the 5% say "screw it, I'm not going to work this hard to give most of my earnings to someone else. Don't oppose generous issuance of H1Bs to well educated individuals - we need them to help keep Medicare (and the whole government bubble) propped up for a few more years - we need to keep this Ponzi scheme afloat...

      --
      Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading /.
    73. Re:Cue the other subjects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I decided to have a look at your "proof." In "The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America", the author begins with two commonly held "beliefs" (his word, not mine):

      "1.) If a child can read, write and compute at a reasonably proficient level, he will be able to do just about anything he wishes, enabling him to control his destiny to the extent that God allows (remaining free);
      2.) Providing such basic educational proficiencies is not and should not be an expensive proposition."

      He then immediately draws the conclusion that since "basic" education is inexpensive:

      "...it becomes obvious that it is only a radical agenda, the purpose of which is to change values and attitudes (brainwash), that is the costly agenda. In other words, brainwashing by our schools and universities is what is bankrupting our nation and our children's minds."

      Yeah, that's certainly the unsupported conclusion I'd draw. It certainly explains why my kid's minds are "bankrupt."

    74. Re:Cue the other subjects by Strilanc · · Score: 1

      If all people are smart
      And some people work at McDonald's
      ----
      Then people who work at McDonald's are smart

      Come on! It's a math story!

    75. Re:Cue the other subjects by bluej100 · · Score: 1

      If everyone was smart, who would work at mcdonalds?

      Robots obviously.

      Only assuming that we follow Japan's xenophobic lead instead of opening the floodgates to cheap immigrant labor.

    76. Re:Cue the other subjects by uncqual · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I hear this story over and over -- it's SO sad that the system flushes out teachers who "get it" while leaving the sludge in the teaching pool.

      There are certainly some good teachers that stick it out and I don't blame anyone for bailing out of an untenable situation, but society has got to recognize that education is important, equality should be about opportunity not outcome, working hard is an important component to success, and teachers should be accountable (and not "entitled" to their job just because they have seniority).

      Oh, and and parents have to realize that just because they were clever (or careless) enough to figure out how to spawn, it doesn't mean their children are perfect angels entitled to whatever they want without hard work.

      --
      Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading /.
    77. Re:Cue the other subjects by treeves · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it's the IFs that I'm having a hard time with, especially the second one.

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    78. Re:Cue the other subjects by IBitOBear · · Score: 1

      Whatever your count, add "Mathematicians who don't understand Science"...

      In the article the speaker starts in on Math being pure and abstract, and gets all dismissive of science "with test-tubes and experiments".

      It's a classic false dichotomy where the glorious Math is a pure thing of "Art" but practical things are dirty banalities.

      Good science (as opposed to gestaltist empiricism) starts with the pure conjecture of hypothesis and the creative construction of conditions and truths implicit in that hypothesis in such terms that one can then try to destroy that construct with thought, or on paper, or with test tubes, or dynamite.

      Well-executed, all disciplines are Art. Poorly executed all arts are dross.

      The problem with bulk education is that it treats _ALL_ subjects (including arts) as quantifiable objective things devoid of art or _circumstantial_ _subjective_ merit. That's because we grade everything, and you cannot grade an intransitive truth.

      So the piece largely picks a favorite nit while the whole of London lies awash in flea-ridden plague rats.

      Standardized testing, overt measure of questionable "qualities", forcing teachers to teach outside their talents and interests, and the one-size must measure all approach to thought and insight needs must poison schooling for all topics and purposes.

      I don't cry for the mathematicians lost any more than I cry for the Great Mechanical Virtuoso who was forced into the "higher education track" and denied access to the Vo-Tech campus and metal lathe that would have let him express his true greatness "because vo-tech is for the under achiever".

      School is Prison for the Mind, and far too few make parole just because they are dismissed from the facility.

      --
      Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
      --"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
    79. Re:Cue the other subjects by hazem · · Score: 1

      When your math teacher only cares about "feelings" and not objective laws of mathematics, it doesn't matter that he followed his Union leader's instructions to vote for Obama, you'll still get morons coming out of the school system.

      Have you ever actually worked with teachers? (not as a student but as a coworker?) They're amazingly strong-headed, stubborn, surly, and resistant to people telling them what to do. Their union might suggest they vote one way or the other, but if anything, they're likely to vote against that just to resist being told what to do.

      I was in a job where I ended up in an education union. Really, all it meant was another line in my pay-statement where money was taken out, and a bit of "junk mail". The union certainly never told me how to vote, nor would I have listened or cared if it had.

    80. Re:Cue the other subjects by jesset77 · · Score: 1

      ((offtopic, to SomeJoel)): like the sig but it contains a typo FYI :3

      --
      People willing to trade their freedom of expression for temporary entertainment deserve neither and will lose both.
    81. Re:Cue the other subjects by Bhrian · · Score: 1

      If everyone was smart, McDonald's wouldn't exist because no one would eat there.

    82. Re:Cue the other subjects by deander2 · · Score: 1

      of course, people often forget *why* the war started 30-40 years ago: forced desegregation

    83. Re:Cue the other subjects by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      There would always be people at the bottom, no matter how educated everyone was.

      The real benefit would be that they would actually be able to make change if their cash registers crashed.

    84. Re:Cue the other subjects by CarpetShark · · Score: 1

      If everyone was smart, who would work at mcdonalds?

      Smart McDonalds people?

    85. Re:Cue the other subjects by malv · · Score: 1

      If everyone was smart, who would work at mcdonalds?

      Robots. Assuming people were still not intelligent enough to avoid eating that food.

    86. Re:Cue the other subjects by snooo53 · · Score: 1

      The big problem with that philosophy, is that it is often used before a student is ready or even interested in knowing where a formula comes from. So the math lesson becomes a long boring derivation. I sat through way too many of those before I even knew what the teacher was getting at. Show a student how to do something first and once they are comfortable using it, then ask them where it came from. Get them interested in the why AFTER they know the practical use.

      --
      The sending of this message pretty much inconveniences everyone involved.
    87. Re:Cue the other subjects by Forrest+Kyle · · Score: 1

      If you honestly believe the quality of public education had declined because of groups advocating private education and freedom of choice for education, you have no idea how the public education system works at all. My wife taught mathematics at a public elementary school, and I assure you our public schools are failing because of government policies, government inefficiency, government sponsored group-think, and horrible, irresponsible parents who are raising tv and sugar addicted monsters that don't care about anything and don't know how to behave.

    88. Re:Cue the other subjects by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "There would always be people at the bottom, no matter how educated everyone was."

      But the great parent gave education a point even on national security. Over educated people (on trash jobs) can be a national security hazard too. I remember something like this on Huxley's 'Brave New World': "why don't we only produce A++ people...?"

    89. Re:Cue the other subjects by turbidostato · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Hey! That was exactly the paragraph I was thinking of on another post. Time to mod me "redundant".

    90. Re:Cue the other subjects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Feature, not a bug.

      I'm sure bugs would eat there also.

    91. Re:Cue the other subjects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mexicans

    92. Re:Cue the other subjects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And anyone who concludes from this that flipping burgers is likely to be the start of an upwardly-mobile career needs to go learn math.

    93. Re:Cue the other subjects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...I subversively gave a few students the motivation to question what they were taught and learn on their own.

      Even what they learn from Rush Limbaugh?

    94. Re:Cue the other subjects by linuxrocks123 · · Score: 1

      Not to nitpick, but high school was recent enough for me to remember that my life /was/ stressful, and that I /didn't/ have time for other activities -- useful things like self-directed computer science study and piano lessons.

      --
      vi ~/.emacs # I'm probably going to Hell for this.
    95. Re:Cue the other subjects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They used to try and exterminate the bugs, but then PETA got upset.

    96. Re:Cue the other subjects by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      Fries, motherfucker, where are mine?

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    97. Re:Cue the other subjects by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      That's BITE my shiny metal ass, you insensitive clod!

    98. Re:Cue the other subjects by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      What you describe as a livable wage IS possible, even on the minimum wage. The people who fail at it uniformly do not know how to save money and spend wisely. How do I know this? From living on minimum wage for 3 fucking years.

    99. Re:Cue the other subjects by superwiz · · Score: 1

      Polya's "How To Solve It" gives a pretty good philosophy on how to structure a math lesson. Not my favorite though. I personally most enjoyed a more "historical" teaching of math. Where new methods introduce new problems and further methods are introduced to solve these new problems. It gives this natural feeling where one feels actual angst at the problem not being solved. So that when a method for solving it is shown, it becomes a favorite new toy.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    100. Re:Cue the other subjects by superwiz · · Score: 1

      The day was the day when "these are the stakes" mushroom cloud commercial played on TV. It scared the people of reason into thinking that rational discourse is important in the wake of rhetoric evoking visceral response. It was the day the Republican party resigned from being the part of rational people. Republicans decided that to protect the reasonable society they must enlist visceral response of their own. And so they married the religious right. What we see today is the golem attacking its creators. They decided to take the low road for immediate convenience of winning elections with the usual brush off that the long term damage that they were doing to the cause would be someone else's problem. Well, it's our problem now. There is no more a political party that appeals to the left brain. Both parties appeal to right brain, just on different issues.

      That commercial showed that visceral response can completely preempt any arguments. It only played once. And after it did, the downfall started. That was the day I was talking about.

      I am sure everyone with their favorite cause that is buzzing on their mind thinks they need to make an argument against me based on how I am ignoring why one party or the other is not addressing the cause that is "the most important cause right now". Blah, blah, blah. All debate today is trying to stir emotional reaction. So all schooling is done to force people to know enough facts to understand the vocabulary of these emotional MEMEs. Logical thinking is not taught anymore. It's not even valued. The idea of discovery is really shunned. "Open-minded" now means conforming to the person making the statement. Everything is subjective. Objectivity is deemed impossible. This is all right-brain values. It's where we are because there is nothing in culture or public debate that appeals to the left-brain values.

      These are the stakes

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    101. Re:Cue the other subjects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Minimum wage in what state? The Ohio minimum wage was 5.15 until the Federal wage went up to 7.00.

      I'll grant that You can probably live fine on $7.00/hr if you're wise, but 5.15?

      On the other hand, did you have any serious medical problems during those 3 years? Did you have benefits? Just saying "I lived on minimum wage for 3 years." doesn't necessarily disprove the assertion that minimum wage is livable.

    102. Re:Cue the other subjects by Lost+Engineer · · Score: 1

      and most of them can be traced to certain groups (*cough*teacher's unions*cough*) waging a 30 year war on public education

      The fundies are all home schooled now.

    103. Re:Cue the other subjects by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      that is utter bullshit. The decline happened while system became more and more under control of progressive leftist/socialist liberal leadership. I have much against the religious fundamentalists, but the sad state of our educational system is very much the fault of another group.

    104. Re:Cue the other subjects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was going to say.. I'm not religious by any stretch of the imagination, but this country produced a lot of phenomenally good work when we were significantly more fundamentalist. If anything I'd say the 'everyone is a winner' attitude bought on by our weak 'modern' touchy-feely approach to children, education, and personal responsibility has contributed more to the degradation of K-12 learning than any 'fundamentalist ideas'. In fact I would argue that we are much more likely to see a resurgence of ignorance and the acceptance of things with 'god did it' explanations in the future, simply because we allow school systems and idiot parents who are unwilling to hurt little johnny's feelings ( which is of course a more modern approach ).

      The education system needs to go back to basics, don't let stupid children in k-12 have a calculator that can do symbolic integration, root finding, and complex matrix operations... Kids don't need that crap. They need READING (if you can read, you can do whatever you want), writing, and arithmetic... and by arithmetic I mean geometry, algebra, and basic calc, with some intro abstract concepts for people who arn't retarded. Waves of kids finishing high school and taking basic algebra in college is a disgrace.

    105. Re:Cue the other subjects by cheftw · · Score: 1

      We are getting on just fine in Ireland thanks!

      --
      Always back up, never back down. ---- Think you're cool 'cos your uid is prime? Take mine, modulo the one digit integers
    106. Re:Cue the other subjects by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, did you have any serious medical problems during those 3 years? Did you have benefits? Just saying "I lived on minimum wage for 3 years." doesn't necessarily disprove the assertion that minimum wage is livable.

      Not to mention a family, or an upcoming retirement... or an increase in rent, even.

    107. Re:Cue the other subjects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A lot of the rest, IMO, can be traced to schools not teaching children how to think critically, just to memorize stuff.

      And that sucks.

      Governments, Corporations, and Religions don't necessarily want us to be able to think critically (and it can be argued that they'd prefer us to "think" uncritically), so it's not surprising that none of that enters into most schools. But yeah, I agree with what you said.

    108. Re:Cue the other subjects by rossifer · · Score: 1

      When your math teacher only cares about "feelings" and not objective laws of mathematics

      Oohhh... you're really going to be disappointed if you ever RTFA.

      BTW, I completely agree that teacher's unions are a huge part of the problem, but for a different set of reasons than you mention. My issue is that unions strongly resist any effort to pay teachers differently based on ability and have successfully negotiated contracts that make teachers essentially impossible to fire once they've successfully completed two or three years of teaching. The same contracts dictate pay scales based on degree level and seniority. Being an excellent teacher pays no better than being a seatwarmer, and probably pays much worse, since most of the seatwarmers have seniority.

      If you're looking for a completely screwed up incentive structure for educators, look no further than any school with a teacher's union contract. Sadly, that's 99% of public schools in the US.

    109. Re:Cue the other subjects by sjames · · Score: 1

      Robots built by smart people?

    110. Re:Cue the other subjects by SomeJoel · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the heads up. It's fixed now.

      --
      <Complete your profile by adding a signature!>
    111. Re:Cue the other subjects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know what other peoples reasons for doing so are, but I won't be involved in a single parent family for precisely the reasons this article discusses. I am a female and also a scientist and refuse to give up my career or love of learning because of my gender. Two-income homes are not the problem. Both parents are entitled to career satisfaction, should they desire it.

    112. Re:Cue the other subjects by longbot · · Score: 1

      I could do that. If I lived in a tent with no electricity. Or in my car in the parking lot of my employer. When the federal minimum was still $5.15 an hour, I fail to see how you could have made ends meet at all, even at a full 40 hours every week.

      --
      I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it! --Longbottle
  6. tl;dr by Enuratique · · Score: 1

    Having not read the actual PDF, I wonder if having a bunch of mathematically disinclined women teaching math to young students would have something to do with it? Note: I'm not trying to be misogynistic, just my anecdotal observations. If the shit really hit the fan, I think I'd rather enjoy being a high school advanced math/computer science teacher. Aren't school districts hurting for qualified people in those positions?

    --
    A black hole is where God divided by 0
    1. Re:tl;dr by Fallingcow · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Bingo, and that's one of the big problems with trying to do anything about the issues the paper raises: there are only so many people with the 1) ability, 2) knowledge, and 3) inclination, to do the kind of real mathematics he's talking about.

      We'd have to re-vamp our teacher training along the lines of what's talked about in the paper to try to increase the number of people who could do it, and hope Lockhart's right about this being an art with universal appeal so that enough of the teacher candidates "get" it. Even if elementary schools began using dedicated math teachers (some already do, but many don't) we'd still need a shitload of people trained in this "math as an art/math as play" style, and we currently have approximately zero in elementary education.

    2. Re:tl;dr by CRCulver · · Score: 1

      Having not read the actual PDF, I wonder if having a bunch of mathematically disinclined women teaching math to young students would have something to do with it?

      My high school algebra teacher was female, but had come to high school teaching after spending much of her time in university research rounds. Her qualifications were impeccable. That didn't make my classmates anymore successful with their studies than the average. I'm inclined to think it's a problem of unmotivated students in all fields of education in general.

    3. Re:tl;dr by superwiz · · Score: 1

      Why did you slip the word "women" in there? My best math teachers/professors were women. They tended to be less self-absorbed and when they showed the love for the subject it was love of the subject rather than plain narcissism that's so common to men teaching math (I am guilty of it too, btw).

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    4. Re:tl;dr by Enuratique · · Score: 1

      I guess I was painting with a broad brush... I was referring more to early childhood education. I live in Charlottesville, VA which is home to UVA which has a very good education program... My gf's sister is a graduate from their early childhood education program. >90% of their graduates are women - and from the ones I've met 100% profess to being bad at math/dislike math. That translates into the classroom when they teach stuff (granted simple things like addition and subtraction) either disproportionately or poorly to begin with.

      --
      A black hole is where God divided by 0
    5. Re:tl;dr by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't think that it has anything to do with the femaleness of the teachers, as I have also had excellent female math teachers. I think what grandparent is referring to is the fact that elementary education(and to a lesser extent middle school) draws heavily from the "Good with/likes kids" segment(which, among others, includes a lot of mathematically disinclined women) rather than the "strong knowledge of subject x" segment. This substantially abates at the high school level, and is largely absent in college.

    6. Re:tl;dr by gbarules2999 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Bingo, and that's one of the big problems with trying to do anything about the issues the paper raises: there are only so many people with the 1) ability, 2) knowledge, and 3) inclination, to do the kind of real mathematics he's talking about.

      And not just the teacher training. This goes beyond what some students are capable of and can handle. What happens to them if they can't function inside a creative mathematical atmosphere?

    7. Re:tl;dr by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      It's because he was talking about elementary teachers, not high school or above. I had both good and horrible female math teachers in high school; of course it has nothing to do with sex.

      What does have to do with sex, however, is elementary education: elementary teachers are almost always women. This is for two reasons: 1) women are generally more interested in teaching and being around small children than men, and 2) men who are interested in being around small children are viewed as pedophiles in our society, so men who genuinely like being around small children, but not molesting them, tend to avoid this profession. Oh yeah: 3) elementary teachers aren't paid very well, so it's ok for women who have a husband's larger primary income to live on, but not for a man.

      So the OP, speaking from his personal experience with elementary teachers, said "women" because that's what all his elementary teachers were. Mine were all women too. If you had any male teachers in the K-5 grades, then you are a statistical anomaly I believe.

    8. Re:tl;dr by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      To have a functioning Republic, governed by the will of the people, there should be 3 stages of adult life encouraged by society:

      1. Service (military, peace corps, civilian, whatever)
      2. Vocational (business, real work, etc. & raising a family)
      3. Teaching (because you've been in the real world, raised children, etc. - time to pass it on)

      Unfortunately, even those people with great success, that are willing and able to teach what they know to the next generation, are totally shoved out and discouraged to even try it. Most are told (after retiring from a successful career, mind you) that they need to go back to school for 4 years to even qualify!! What's with that??

      That's why we end up with "career" teachers - they are often the ones that aren't even competent enough to make it in their chosen career, so they end up with a teaching certification to "fall back on" - and that's what they do.

      Apologies to those very excellent and competent teachers that are out there - don't mean to generalize here.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    9. Re:tl;dr by superwiz · · Score: 1

      My best math teachers were in 2nd and 7th grades. Both were women. I can honestly say that my life-long exploration (maybe I should call it maniacal obsession instead?) had I not gone through the 7th grade with the teacher that I had. The first encounter with male math instructors was in high school. I had one male math teacher in high school. Now that I better understand what arguments are, I have to say that he structured math proofs and arguments too ad hominem.

      And, of course, most math professors in college were males. They were intolerable pricks. It took years after college to shake off the bitter taste they left to get back into math again. My PhD thesis adviser was a woman who still amazes me with the level of utmost expertise which is not moderated by rather naturally instilled with utter humbleness. The best I saw from her male colleagues was professionalism. The worst was, of course, narcissism. I've seen male professors fall apart during instruction to the point where they were doing nothing but giving behavior advise on how to study math... talking about people and not talking about math (all the while talking to graduate math students who clearly were there because they already loved math).

      The problem with males is that they rarely invite open hostility. And math instruction requires just that. Women seem to be able to better invite this "but, wait minute..." attitude. And this is how the discipline of proves is trained. The process of verifying a proof is mostly checking that all the assumptions have been justified. And questioning an assumption is too easily taken as a personal assault. So males get defensive. Women not as much.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    10. Re:tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bingo, and that's one of the big problems with trying to do anything about the issues the paper raises: there are only so many people with the 1) ability, 2) knowledge, and 3) inclination, to do the kind of real mathematics he's talking about.

      Sure, fine, there is a limit to how many people will be able to really be stellar mathematicians. However, we are absolutely nowhere near the proficiency level that humanity is capable of. In effect, our current mathematical literacy levels are similar to our actual literacy levels 200 years ago. Back then, few believed that we'd be able to bring (nearly) everyone to the current level.

    11. Re:tl;dr by nine-times · · Score: 1

      We'd have to re-vamp our teacher training along the lines of what's talked about in the paper to try to increase the number of people who could do it

      Well I think you've also described a little paradox. In order to improve education, we need educators who are more educated. In order to have better educated educators, we need improved education. So where do we start?

    12. Re:tl;dr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Way to completely miss the point that the problem was disinclination, not gender. The stereotypical characterization of elementary school teachers as mathematically disinclined women is largely an acurrate one. Most elementary school teachers are women. Most elementary school teachers are mathematically disinclined.

    13. Re:tl;dr by innocent_white_lamb · · Score: 1

      The same thing that happens to them if they can't function inside a creative literary atmosphere, a creative scientific atmosphere, or a creative athletic atmosphere.

      Everyone has abilities and weaknesses. If I excel at literary projects, should I be expected to bench-press the same weight as Big Lou in gymnastics? Why should Big Lou get to set the agenda in English Lit?

      --
      If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
    14. Re:tl;dr by ittybad · · Score: 1

      Agreed. I have heard from many primary education teachers that they went the route of elementary to avoid the math. Yikes!

      I don't think, however, that the problem is incompetent math teachers in the secondary arena (high school) -- though, there are some. The problem is, at least in my school, social promotion lands them in 9th grade Algebra even though they have failed several years of school and cannot subtract two digit numbers (let alone multiply or divide).

      Why not have more accountability? Why not have a math class that prepares them for Algebra (and beyond)? Those kinds of programs and classes lower school's API (and thus, their funding). Follow the money.

      --
      No single raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood.
    15. Re:tl;dr by ittybad · · Score: 1

      It is quoted a lot in my school: the abstract-thinking portions of the brain, for many individuals, is not developed until the early to mid twenties. For some students, the task of abstract thinking is nearly, if not literally, impossible.

      --
      No single raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood.
    16. Re:tl;dr by hurfy · · Score: 1

      "And questioning an assumption is too easily taken as a personal assault. So males get defensive."

      LOL, because of scheduling problems i got stuck in the standard 10th grade geometry class. Not simply a male teacher...we got the wrestling coach who was required to teach SOMETHING. Puts the weeks homework on the board and then whines when my locker partner and i are playing cards Tues-Fri while he is still trying to figure out the homework he assigned.

      Only high point was explaining vectors to him during class after he spent half the day bumbling around. Ok, maybe i had a bit of an ego too. But since i was in ground school at the time for my pilots license, vectors were child's play at the time and 20 minutes of wrong instruction was driving me insane ;) I didn't turn out to be his favorite student for some reason ....

      I doubt anyone in that class came away with any warm fuzzy feelings for math...including the teacher, lol.

    17. Re:tl;dr by NoOneInParticular · · Score: 1

      And not just the teacher training. This goes beyond what some students are capable of and can handle. What happens to them if they can't function inside a creative mathematical atmosphere?

      And what makes you think these kids can handle the current 'training'? Most kids can't handle the current mindless drilling of irrelevant facts, what makes you think that this would be worse?

    18. Re:tl;dr by bezking · · Score: 1

      Yup. Mod parent up, please.

    19. Re:tl;dr by The_Duck271 · · Score: 1

      *Everyone* has the ability to do "real mathematics" as opposed to the empty stuff that seems to be taught in schools. And there's really no sort of prerequisite knowledge necessary to grasp any of the fundamental concepts of K-12 math. You can teach calculus to someone who merely knows arithmetic:

      Some hills are steeper than others. What is this idea of "steepness"? Well, a hill is steep if the land goes up a lot within a short distance. So let's take the height of the hill and divide it by the width, and call that the steepness. OK, but what if a hill isn't just a straight ascent, but curvy, so it's got a different steepness in different parts. That's fine, we'll just concentrate on a small section at a time, so that within that small section the hill is pretty straight. Then we can get a steepness for every point on the hill. Bam! You have learned how to take derivatives. Of course, this lesson would be taught on an actual hillside.

      OK, if you see a polynomial on a test you can't yet take the derivative. But you have comprehended the simple and elegant underlying concept. Contrast this with the way in which calculus is generally taught. First we introduce the concept of limits, which. While essential to the rigorous mathematical foundation of calculus, do not help anyone to understand what a derivative is. We practice taking limits for a while, and learn a rigorous definition of continuity that by rights belongs in a collegiate real analysis class. Anyone can tell whether a function is continuous, just graph it! No one cares about stupid trick functions like "(x-1)(x-3)/(x-1)". Anyway, we then get introduced to a particular arbitrary limit that defines the derivative, and take the derivative the hard way for a bit. This is again contributing little to our understanding. All this was comprehended in the idea of "looking at a small section of the hill", the mathematical rigor should be distinctly secondary to the communication of intuitive ideas. The fundamental theorem of calculus seems an arcane and mystical thing until you realize that it is simply saying that a steeper hill will be taller than a shallower hill of the same length.

      Math should be taught in this intuitive manner in which mathematical concepts are tightly bound to real-world ideas. Why isn't math taught in such a way? For one thing, I believe, math teachers are generally underqualified. Many lack the intuitive understanding which ought to be the primary focus of their communication with their students (partially as a result of their own suboptimal math classes). Secondly, professional mathematics has *too much* influence on classroom mathematics, in some ways. A mature mathematical discipline logically procedes with basic axioms and definitions built into theorems. This is the *wrong* way to teach anything except perhaps geometry (the only point of teaching geometry is to demonstrate this process). As I discussed above, the rigorous progression from limits to derivatives is foreign to the human mind. Much better to start with familiar concepts like the slope of a hill and then procede slowly towards a quantity called the derivative, and then to how to calculate it, and then to the rigorous definition and proofs. Finally, if we wish, we may turn the whole thing around and see how to proceed from definitions to proofs to calculations to results that agree with intuition. The proofs will be much more transparent now that we have some sense of why they turn out the way they do.

      Inclination may be harder to find, but because of the backwardness of mathematics teaching, students seem to dislike it even more than they dislike school in general. Teaching math in a more reasonable way would likely reduce the frustration that many students associate with the subject.

    20. Re:tl;dr by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      For we know, that's because their abstract thinking skills were never exercised until college!

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    21. Re:tl;dr by oh2 · · Score: 1

      Well,I am one of those statistical anomalies. I am a man and I teach kids 6-12 years old and I find that a lot more rewarding than when I taught in a high school. As for "women are generally more interested in teaching and being around small children than men", thats not true. Men like kids just as much as women, but its not considered macho enough by many to work with kids. Theres appearances to maintain, yes?

      --

      Now the world has gone to bed, Darkness won't engulf my head, I can see by infra-red, How I hate the night.

    22. Re:tl;dr by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      I find that a lot more rewarding than when I taught in a high school.

      Yes, I'm sure it's much more rewarding than dealing with students who are in gangs, doing drugs, getting into fights, etc. I don't know what kind of sane person would want to teach high school in this country these days.

      As for "women are generally more interested in teaching and being around small children than men", thats not true. Men like kids just as much as women, but its not considered macho enough by many to work with kids.

      You can believe that if you want, but I disagree. It's usually the women in couples that want to get pregnant and start families, after all. Just because you like small children doesn't mean most men are like that. Of course, I don't really know how we'd ever settle this dispute without some kind of study, and I doubt anyone's bothered to do a study on this subject.

    23. Re:tl;dr by ChaosDiscord · · Score: 1

      "What happens to [students] if they can't function inside a creative mathematical atmosphere?"

      What happens to students that can't function inside a rote memorization atmosphere? They learn that they're "bad at math" and we end up with a country that, as a whole, views math as hard and themselves as dumb. Maybe the original author is wrong, but he's essentially putting forth that the current system fails for far more students than his proposed system. No, it might not work for everyone, but he claims it will work for more people than the current system.

    24. Re:tl;dr by oh2 · · Score: 1

      Heh, Im actually Swedish. Our culture when it comes to gender issues is pretty different from the US.

      --

      Now the world has gone to bed, Darkness won't engulf my head, I can see by infra-red, How I hate the night.

    25. Re:tl;dr by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Ah. I'm sure a lot of things are pretty different. I don't know, but besides the gender issues, I'm guessing high schools (or the equivalent) in your country probably aren't war zones with metal detectors at the doors and police on-site like ours are.

    26. Re:tl;dr by oh2 · · Score: 1

      No metal detectors yet, violence isnt a major issue but it does occur. High School isnt mandatory either, but 95% or so complete it anyway.

      --

      Now the world has gone to bed, Darkness won't engulf my head, I can see by infra-red, How I hate the night.

    27. Re:tl;dr by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Oh that's right, I forgot that Sweden does have a small vampire problem. :-)

  7. I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by eldavojohn · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I really do sympathize with Lockhart. But what he's asking for is the perfect math teacher in the perfect math world with kids and their parents being tantalized by mathematics--not captain of the football team or even high achieving speech/band nerd.

    From the blog:

    I defy you to read and find a single sentence that isn't permeated, suffused, soaked, and encrusted with truth.

    Very well, here is an excerpt from the PDF:

    Mathematics is an art, and art should be taught by working artists, or if not, at least by people who appreciate the art form and can recognize it when they see it. It is not necessary that you learn music from a professional composer, but would you want yourself or your child to be taught by someone who doesn't even play an instrument, and has never listened to a piece of music in their lives? Would you accept as an art teacher someone who has never picked up a pencil or stepped foot in a museum? Why is it that we accept math teachers who have never produced an original piece of mathematics, know nothing of the history and philosophy of the subject, nothing about recent developments, nothing in fact beyond what they are expected to present to their unfortunate students? What kind of a teacher is that? How can someone teach something that they themselves don't do? I can't dance, and consequently I would never presume to think that I could teach a dance class (I could try, but it wouldn't be pretty). The difference is I know I can't dance. I don't have anyone telling me I'm good at dancing just because I know a bunch of dance words.

    Now I'm not saying that math teachers need to be professional mathematicians--far from it. But shouldn't they at least understand what mathematics is, be good at it, and enjoy doing it?

    Well if you're not asking for teachers needing to be professional published mathematicians, what was that paragraph about?

    I'm sorry man, you're asking for the perfect math teacher. You know Robin William's character from the movie The Dead Poet's Society? You want a guy like that for math ... everywhere. That art teacher that actually made you think about what 'art' is? Not going to find many of them in the political science department, are you? Of course, for any subject, someone who puts their heart and soul into the subject is the best teacher! In this respect, math is not special.

    The paragraph I quote is not the truth, it's wishing for the impossible. I wish I had a math teacher like this all my life but come on. The public school system is more worried about getting someone that actualy cares about the students at all. They can't even find those people let alone people who care about the students and live/eat/sleep/bleed math.

    I'm right their with you in wishing for this but the expectation is unrealistic. Passions come to people unexpectedly. We should deal with the fact that more people are passionate about topics like Art and Humanities than Math and Computer Science. It's just the reality of academia right now.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by conspirator57 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      you don't have to be a PhD. to be interested in and passionate about math. there are some very elegant things in math, and if they are taught to kids in the spirit of a voyage of discovery rather than a trudge along the banks of the river Styx, then there's a chance more kids will catch the bug and like math. And at the rate we're losing engineering capability, particularly in the US, this ought to be a priority.

      --
      "If still these truths be held to be
      Self evident."
      -Edna St. Vincent Millay
    2. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by langelgjm · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Passions come to people unexpectedly. We should deal with the fact that more people are passionate about topics like Art and Humanities than Math and Computer Science. It's just the reality of academia right now.

      Isn't his point that we don't really know if that's true, since math isn't taught in a way to inspire passion? That if more people were able to glimpse some of the beauty and creativity in it, there might be more interest in it?

      Well if you're not asking for teachers needing to be professional published mathematicians, what was that paragraph about?

      I agree we can't expect every teacher to be awe-inspiring; even getting (and retaining) enough marginally competent teachers is a challenge. However, you needn't be a university-level mathematics professor to know some of what he's suggested. For example, public school teachers are supposed to have Master's degrees, right? Now, isn't there something funny about the fact that teachers will go and get their BS in the subject they will teach, but get their Master's degree in "education"? Cue the "Philosophy of science is about as useful to scientists as ornithology is to birds" quotes. I'd think that teachers might be better served by a decent master's degree in their field of teaching, rather than "education". That would allow them the opportunity to study the history and philosophy of their subject, get a grasp of recent developments (maybe not in all subjects, but they could at least be able to pick up journals), etc. The really good ones could even get published (I just got my Master's degree, and was able to get a paper published, so yes, it's possible).

      --
      "Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
    3. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they had masters degrees in their subject areas, they wouldn't ever want to bother with the bullshit of being a teacher.

    4. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm right their with you in wishing for this but the expectation is unrealistic.

      Its 'I'm right THERE with you', not THEIR.

      Now where is the outrage that we don't have decent english teachers?

    5. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by immcintosh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      To be honest, I thoroughly disagree with you, because I DID HAVE just such a teacher. She wasn't some kind of superwoman either, she was just very competent at math (no advanced degrees, but good enough to teach basic calculus, algebra, and geometry in a way that made pretty much all the students at my school respect her). More importantly, she was passionate about giving students a fundamental understanding of the subject matter. She didn't want to just cross her T's and dot her I's and be done with it, she wanted us to learn what it was all about. She was a hard teacher, but she was almost remarkable in that nearly the entire student body had a great deal of respect for her.

      I think the author's whole POINT was that it's claims like yours--that this is some kind of unreasonable expectation--that are entirely the problem with the situation we have. The simple fact is, it is not unreasonable. My personal experience has shown me that there ARE such teachers out there; mine as well as others I've known.

      My own personal take is that our society simply doesn't give educators the respect they deserve. There's very little motivation for the kind of intelligent, competent, passionate people to go into to lower tiers of the world of education. We pay them peanuts and there's not nearly the kind of appreciation and respect out there for them to want to do those jobs. I happened to go to a private Catholic school, where neither of those things are true, and let me tell you the difference was obvious.

    6. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree. Hence a part of the solution is training students to also be teachers, whenever possible. Start at an early age having students tutor each other (or younger grades) and maybe those few students who end up being teachers will actually end up being good teachers. And those that don't will have learned the subject matter all the better (I believe that you haven't comprehended a concept until you can teach it)

    7. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by EEBaum · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The public school system is more worried about getting someone that actualy cares about the students at all.

      Now who's being the idealist? The public school system rarely has such concerns, or they wouldn't do everything possible to scare away the best teachers, and even moderately good ones. Standardized testing, nonsensical state mandates, psychotic district administrators, requirements to use ghastly textbooks, etc. So many headaches are thrust upon our public teachers that have nothing to do with teaching, that it's a wonder anyone sticks with it. I've known people who would have been excellent teachers (including one who was the "perfect" math teacher you speak of) who were scared off by the horrors of the system and ended up pursuing other fields.

      The last thing our system is geared toward is finding good teachers, or ones who care about the students. It's geared toward finding teachers who are willing to put up with all the crap that our public school system shovels their way. Some do it because they love teaching or care about the students and will put up with the suffering. Some do it because the job offers an awesome 3 months off per year. Some do it because they were able to get tenure and love the job security. Some do it because that's the career path they started in and they don't want to make a change.

      --
      -- I prefer the term "karma escort."
    8. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by panthroman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      We should deal with the fact that more people are passionate about topics like Art and Humanities than Math and Computer Science. It's just the reality of academia right now.

      Of course it is, because we have these ridiculous stigmas:

      Art is passionate, frivolous, and beautiful.
      Math is boring, uninspiring, and useful.

      What?! There is no such thing as frivolous beauty; no utility is uninspiring and cold. Lockhart, I fear, misses this point. I understand the frustration Lockhart feels at the 'math = boring' stigma, but countering that 'math = art' is just as damning in our obsessed-with-mutual-exclusion society.

      Beauty and utility have long been a happy couple. The false rumors of their divorce is, I think, the root of Lockhart's (and my) frustration.

    9. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by EEBaum · · Score: 2, Informative

      There's no requirement for public school teachers to have masters' degrees. A Bachelor's degree and a credential are all that's required, at least in California.

      --
      -- I prefer the term "karma escort."
    10. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by jandrese · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Honestly, it's the people who are really passionate about math who are the ones that are least capable of teaching it to other people. The ones I've known appreciate the subject matter too much to see it be ruined by a class full of students who couldn't care less just how elegant this theory that you're teaching is. They just want to get through the class and get back to stuff they care about.

      The only way this guy would get the class he wants is to only teach elective courses that aren't pre-reqs for anything. That's the only way to make sure that your students actually care about the subject and aren't taking the class just because they were forced to. In public education this does not exist until sometimes very very late in a child's development (when it's already too late).

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    11. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by serutan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's not necessary to put a perfect math teacher in every classroom. Elementary school teachers are perfectly capable of teaching a math curriculum that presents kids with mathematical concepts in game form as Lockhart mentions. Later in their school careers the kids who show interest and aptitude for math could be taught algebra etc, and the rest could stick with the mechanics of arithmetic that will enable them to deal with checkbooks and mortgages. I think our problem today is that we use a one-size-fits-all approach that evolved from the "new math" of the 1960s, which was aimed at teaching kids mathematical concepts instead of practical arithmetic. It was based on the theory that students would see the beauty and wonder of math, and as a result the mechanics would come naturally. That didn't happen, but rather than scrap the whole idea the education system kept the subject matter and devolved the teaching approach. There's a lot of window dressing but basically it's the same kind of rote instruction as before. I think the author's lament is that the system has been trying to teach the beauty of mathematics like a metal shop class.

    12. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Well if you're not asking for teachers needing to be professional published mathematicians, what was that paragraph about?

      I think he's asking for teachers to know about and care about the subjects they teach. I think you do need to understand and care about a topic in order to teach it well, so he's at least on the right track there.

      You may be right that expecting that much from teachers seems unrealistic. However, if expecting our teachers to teach well is an unreasonably high expectation, then it might just be a sign of how screwed our education system is.

    13. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by langelgjm · · Score: 1

      Hm, ok, it must vary by state. I think in Maryland, you are required to have a BA/BS and a certification to start, and then you must get a Master's degree within 10 years if you want to continue, or something like that.

      --
      "Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
    14. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by mustafap · · Score: 1

      Agreed.

      I teach microprocessor design. Am I am expert, PhD in it? No. But I am passionate about it, and I've been told that passion rubs off.

      Some of the worst teachers I have had, were simply bad teachers. The problem where I grew up (UK) was that it was very difficult to get rid of a bad teacher.

      --
      Open Source Drum Kit, LPLC deve board - mjhdesigns.com
    15. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by mochan_s · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well if you're not asking for teachers needing to be professional published mathematicians, what was that paragraph about?

      In history, a lot of very prominent mathematicians of their day and age made their living privately teaching high school kids. In modern times, mathematics isn't seen as an important an asset to have to spend that kind of money even if one has it.

      I don't understand why education is seen the way it is in the US. What does the teacher have to do with the quality of education? Does anyone think their teacher helped them become a good programmer. NO. Why do people think their math teachers will make them good mathematicians?

      Anyway, I challenge people to name 10 prominent American mathematicians - please non-mathematicians only and let's take Nash as given. Name the last American mathematician to be featured on a postage stamp. Do the same for musician and see how long that takes.

      My point is that the US doesn't really have a mathematics appreciating society. It reflects in the education as well. And, don't blame the teachers or the administrators for it.

    16. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by conspirator57 · · Score: 1

      too bad that its hard to measure passion in a classroom setting. i certainly can't think of ways to measure it objectively that control for the number of variables involved. so how do you identify and remove/reward bad/good teachers effectively and not have it devolve into a purely organizational political process? then throw the teaching unions' resistance to change/external review into it. it's disheartening.

      --
      "If still these truths be held to be
      Self evident."
      -Edna St. Vincent Millay
    17. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Here in the USA, it's very difficult to get rid of bad teachers too, at least in the pre-college levels.

    18. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by ahabswhale · · Score: 1

      Agreed. When I was in school, math was taught in the most uninteresting way possible. It was a boring, uninteresting slog with dispassionate teachers through problems that I could find no way to correlate to the real world. For me, it's very hard to stay interested in anything that I cannot correlate to my real world. What's especially sad about it is the fact that I actually was interested in math, really wanted to learn it, but became so utterly bored with the way it was taught and the quality of the text books that it almost completely killed my interest in it. My mother actually thought there was something wrong with me because my grades in math were so mediocre (mostly Cs), that she sent me to a psychologist.

      --
      Are agnostics skeptical of unicorns too?
    19. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you don't have to be a PhD. to be interested in and passionate about math. there are some very elegant things in math, and if they are taught to kids in the spirit of a voyage of discovery rather than a trudge along the banks of the river Styx, then there's a chance more kids will catch the bug and like math. And at the rate we're losing engineering capability, particularly in the US, this ought to be a priority.

      To borrow one of TFA's analogies: there are some very elegant things in music, which if taught to kids in the right way, then there's a chance more kids will catch the bug and become composers. The reality is that most of us aren't ever going to be practicing musicians outside of the shower (and many of us won't even practice in the shower). We won't be painters or sculptors or poets or mathematicians. The kind of math they teach in school is the basic, functional part of math that has become so ingrained in our culture that you can't function without it. Yes, it would be lovely if it were possible to find everyone an inspiring teacher who appreciates the art of every subject he teaches. Yes, it's a shame that 99% of students don't have the same passion for your pet subject as you. It's part of life, though. Some people like math, some people like music, and some people like cricket.

    20. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by ahabswhale · · Score: 1

      lol...you're kidding right? Why don't you just ask the children in the class? If the kids cannot detect the passion, then it really doesn't matter whether some evaluation board thinks they have any or not.

      --
      Are agnostics skeptical of unicorns too?
    21. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by debest · · Score: 1

      The paragraph I quote is not the truth, it's wishing for the impossible. I wish I had a math teacher like this all my life but come on. The public school system is more worried about getting someone that actualy cares about the students at all. They can't even find those people let alone people who care about the students and live/eat/sleep/bleed math.

      As someone who went through teacher's college but realized that I was not capable of surviving the stresses of teaching in the public schools, I agree with this wholeheartedly. After my experience in school and in practicum classrooms, I feel that there are two kinds of teachers that can survive the system:

      • the brilliant, enthusiastic, respected "perfect" teacher: you know them when you see them, and there are a few of them in every school,
      • the less-than-perfect teacher who inevitably cannot stop students from falling through the cracks, and who really doesn't care (ie: it's just a job)

      Unfortunately for my potential career, I fell into the third category: the imperfect teacher who cared too much to be able to just forge ahead regardless of the failure to reach and inspire some students. I found the stress of lesson planning and instruction overwhelming, because I was hung up on trying to accommodate the students who had different needs and learning styles, as well as the different levels of ability. I believe that I was a fairly good teacher overall (and yes, I do love mathematics), but caring about the students really weighs heavily on you when you know you're not able to teach to everyone well.

      --
      Look at the tomato! Isn't it sad? He can't dance! Poor tomato!
    22. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by avandesande · · Score: 1

      Our HS music teacher was a goof ball but you could tell that he loved music.
      I don't think it is that rare.

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    23. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the system was full of people who went through a better system they would be batter at teaching math... an ideal system would breed ideal teachers of that system ... The system breeds the system .... How to de/re-institutionalize? Maybe that is the question.

    24. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      Well if you're not asking for teachers needing to be professional published mathematicians, what was that paragraph about?

      He is simply asking for someone who appreciates and understands math. Now I'm not a mathematician and while I've published papers in CS involving the use of math I don't consider them math papers (and I'm pretty sure math faculty would agree lol)... but I understand what math is and I appreciate it.

      A few years back there was a letter in one of the city newspapers from a professor in one of the humanities departments at one of the local universities. I cannot remember what prompted the letter but in it he opined that people would be better off spending their time studying the beauty found in art and not the dry sterile material of mathematics. In one sentence he showed himself to be completely ignorant of what math is and the phenomenal beauty it contains. It was astounding to "hear" someone with a Ph.D. being so phenomenally ignorant and so arrogant in his ignorance. Well maybe the latter goes hand in hand with the former.

      Almost all my math teachers had an understanding and appreciation of math that was typical of an arts student forced to take something like "Intro to Math for Arts Students" to get their B.A. and teaching credentials. More than once I had "discussions" with teachers only to realize part way in that there was no point because they actually didn't understand the conceptual issue I was raising. It is amazingly discouraging to have the people are supposed to be teaching you a subject mark an answer as wrong because they are too ignorant of the subject they purport to teach to be able to understand the answer presented by a student. In grade 10 I had a math teacher who did in fact have a Ph.D. in math... it was a totally different experience from any other math class,or science class for that matter, that I'd ever had to that point.

      The paragraph I quote is not the truth, it's wishing for the impossible.

      Well even if it is impossible, wishing for the impossible does not make it any less true. These are not mutually exclusive properties. That's something you learn along the way in math btw.

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    25. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by conspirator57 · · Score: 1

      because kids are unbiased and always tell the truth? this is news.

      --
      "If still these truths be held to be
      Self evident."
      -Edna St. Vincent Millay
    26. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Minor aside: the countries held up as examples of producing lots of engineers... don't do it by instilling a passion for math either. They're heavy into memorization and repetition, the exact sort of thing that Lockhart's paper correctly says kills the drive. (But in some countries engineering is the only way out of the slums, so the drive comes from need rather than passion).

      But yes, we do need better math coverage. And we'll happen to get more engineers as a side effect. And they'll be better problem solvers than ones taught by memorization. (And we'll need to pay them enough, or else even if we have more math lovers we still won't have more engineers...)

    27. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by lessthan · · Score: 1

      We don't ask the children, because the children are bastards (not literally). Do you want your job to hinge on the kid that may have reasons to dislike you other than your teaching ability?

      --
      Space Shuttle was a program that strapped humans to an explosion and tried to stab through the sky with fire and math
    28. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have a PhD in physics (lots of math & chemistry, too). I'm well known online and off for my work, for my volunteer teaching, and for my Maker Faire creations. I'm a volunteer at the Exploratorium.

      Yet I cannot find a job teaching in any Bay Area high school. At age 60, I cannot get a teaching certificate (2 years of education classes+ about $25,000). I've applied to private schools - they want young teachers, preferably minorities.

      So I teach math & physics to my own children, and several neighborhood kids. One girl is doing multivariate calculus at age 14. An eight year old has figured out how to factor and find roots of simple polynomials. They're way beyond their peers - simply because one guy takes an interest in teaching real math to them.

      Meanwhile, I'm frustrated that everytime I volunteer to teach math, I'm asked to teach remedial arithmetic to teenagers.

    29. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by ahabswhale · · Score: 1

      If you can't tell when kids are being full of shit, you need to get out of the education business. Plus, kids like passionate teachers. I don't think it's an issue.

      --
      Are agnostics skeptical of unicorns too?
    30. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by tim_of_war · · Score: 1

      And at college level too, at least if they are tenured.

    31. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      The problem with college is that they're not teachers, they're "professors". It doesn't even matter how good or bad their teaching is, as that has zero effect on their employment, only how much they publish.

    32. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The public school system is more worried about getting someone that actualy cares about the students at all. They can't even find those people let alone people who care about the students and live/eat/sleep/bleed math.

      I'm one such person, with an MS in mathematics. I can't be found because of the rotten system that is in place that completely strips the educator of any autonomy. Too bad for the students.

    33. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by LihTox · · Score: 1

      If they had masters degrees in their subject areas, they wouldn't ever want to bother with the bullshit of being a teacher.

      That's not true; there are plenty of PhDs who are passionate about teaching. From my point of view (as an intermittent physics professor), the problem with teaching in public schools is not the teaching part, but all the other crap that public school teachers have to do: discipline, hall monitoring, formal lesson plans, standardized tests, and the like-- not to mention the lower pay. Give high school teachers the academic freedom that college professors have, and you'd get more PhDs teaching high school.

      That said, I think some training in education methods is essential for teachers particularly at the lower grades. The disconnect is too great otherwise; I would have a difficult time teaching science to 3rd graders because I wouldn't know how to describe things in a way they understand. Maybe (*maybe*) a whole M.A. in education is overkill, but some form of training along those lines seems vital to me.

    34. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or we could just admit that public school teachers do not need a Master's degree and do away with the useless "education" Master's degree in the first place, thus allowing already qualified people holding a BS degree to teach the subjects they love straight out of college - without loading them down with a lot of "educational theory".

    35. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by ahabswhale · · Score: 1

      I'm not suggesting someone's career should rest in the hands of a single child or even small group of children. In any event, kids like good teachers so they're not generally inclined to fuck them over. Additionally, there's no need to tell the kids why you're asking about their teacher.

      --
      Are agnostics skeptical of unicorns too?
    36. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by daymitch · · Score: 1

      I come from a school that still gives Doctor of Arts degrees in Biology and Math. The DA does exactly what you mention, gives subject area expertise and a moderate amount of edu-crat training which is necessary in small doses.

      I have to agree with your philosophy. I got a regular PhD, but the DA folks that were in my cohort did excellent research, published more often than not and have had a relatively easy time getting tenure track teaching jobs. Some have gone to elite private high schools and loved it.

      Now, how do we get them in public high schools?

    37. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those who can, do; those who can't, teach. -George Bernard Shaw.

    38. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree, as I read the 25 page paper, I remembered all of the times when I thought about what the teacher was asking us to do, memorize soh cah toa or something stupid like that, and just ignored it, preferring to remember how math works based on why it works, not some arbitrary memorization technique that everyone knows is completely and totally pointless. I would bet money that only 5% of my high school graduating class actually know what the quadratic formula means, and that only 15% of them actually remember it.

      I do agree with the grandparent of this post in some ways though, the author of the work made a little bit of excess. Yes, passionate teachers are great, but we can not find many of them, anywhere. Maybe 2 per school system. I do agree that math history needs to be a part of math curriculum, and that math should be taught by the reasoning behind it, not boring memorization that does nothing for anyone. The only reason I know math is because I ignored about 85% of what the teachers said, and looked up why each tool works like it does on the internet, or in the textbook. The part on proofs was especially good, I hated what the class did to that subject, it was a killer. I figured everything out quickly in different ways, but it would not be counted as right because i didnt list every last proof of the blatantly obvious. Sorry I forgot to state that line AB is a line because it is drawn between two points. As long as the meaning, reasoning, and critical thinking of math are taught, students would do hundreds of times better in math than they do in the bullshit courses we are forced to take in school. I got suspended for yelling at my 6th grade math teacher because all we were doing was repeating the same thing over and over hundreds of times, instead of learning new material.

      The Hatchet.

    39. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by EEBaum · · Score: 1

      Indeed. On any given day in high school math class, I'd snooze through the lecture and skip the lesson, and go straight to trying to solve the problems (usually during the lecture, once I was bored with doing origami). If I had problems, I'd go back to the chapter or listen in on the lecture to figure out how to do things.

      The teachers were usually not amused. However, I was equally unamused by the crappy book with the frequent word problems about LaRonda's Kwanzaa party and the end-of-chapter reflection question that asked how I felt about using such and such equation to solve such and such problem.

      I got put in my place in 3rd grade because my mom showed me a way to subtract quickly in my head without all the "cross out the 9, replace it with an 8, and put a 1 in front of the 5" nonsense they liked to call "borrowing" (you borrow, but you never give back!!??). My page of problems came back marked up for me to re-do because I didn't "show my work," as the entirety of my work consisted of occasional barely noticeable tick marks next to certain numbers.

      I was floored in my college pre-calc class when we went through the steps to see where the quadratic formula came from, and when I learned that an imaginary number is more significant than "what QuadKill on the calculator spits out when there's no real answer".

      --
      -- I prefer the term "karma escort."
    40. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by oh2 · · Score: 1

      In education research the kind of students hes dreaming of are often referred to as "Rockwellian learners"...

      --

      Now the world has gone to bed, Darkness won't engulf my head, I can see by infra-red, How I hate the night.

    41. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only way this guy would get the class he wants is to only teach elective courses that aren't pre-reqs for anything.

      I think he might agree:

      Mathematics in School

      There is surely no more reliable way to kill enthusiasm and interest in a subject than to make it a mandatory part of the school curriculum. Include it as a major component of standardized testing and you virtually guarantee that the education establishment will suck the life out of it.

    42. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by dzfoo · · Score: 1

      >> Well if you're not asking for teachers needing to be professional published mathematicians, what was that paragraph about?

      You missed the point. He wasn't talking about being professional or published; when he mentioned "who have never produced an original piece of mathematics," he meant in the same creative and engaging thought games he wishes they taught the students. He's point being that teachers are just regurgitating "facts" from a text-book, whose context and history they themselves never bothered to understand first hand.

            -dZ.

      --
      Carol vs. Ghost
      ...Can you save Christmas?
    43. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by dzfoo · · Score: 1

      Well put. Although I agree with Lockhart's passionate desire for Maths to be understood in their proper context, I also felt he missed the biggest picture of it: that Mathematics can be beautiful, awe-inspiring, engaging, fun, and useful.

      But his point is still well taken, that even if Mathematics--like many other art forms--do not directly offer utility to an individual, it still has so much more to offer when he or she is able to appreciates it for its very own sake. And that in itself has great value to a society.

                -dZ.

      --
      Carol vs. Ghost
      ...Can you save Christmas?
    44. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by ChaosDiscord · · Score: 1

      I don't understand why education is seen the way it is in the US. What does the teacher have to do with the quality of education? Does anyone think their teacher helped them become a good programmer.

      An interesting insight. We could probably save a lot of money by hiring people willing to work for minimum wage to do our teaching.

      However, yes, I've had professors and lecturers who helped me become a good programmer. (Sadly my high school didn't have any programming courses.) I've had professors whose explanations were clearer than the book's, or in some cases covered material not in a book. When I and other students didn't understand something, they could react to our questions and complaints in a way a book couldn't. They reviewed our code and provided guidance on what was good and bad. One in particular demanded a brief oral design proposal for a major project before you started on it and would ruthlessly critique it. (This would show me the value of designing before coding, even if the "design" is just a brief plan, getting at least a second opinion on your design, and analyzing a design for flaws. My teachers taught me useful techniques applicable to a wide variety of situations. They taught me to formalize problems and identify existing solutions instead of viewing every problem as a completely unique situation. They introduced me to types of development tools I hadn't realized existed. While I question the value of some of my college courses, most of my computer science courses were taught by skilled, inspiring people and I am confident that they made me a better programmer today.

    45. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by mochan_s · · Score: 1

      I've had professors whose explanations were clearer than the book's, or in some cases covered material not in a book. When I and other students didn't understand something, they could react to our questions and complaints in a way a book couldn't. They reviewed our code and provided guidance on what was good and bad. One in particular demanded a brief oral design proposal for a major project before you started on it and would ruthlessly critique it. (This would show me the value of designing before coding, even if the "design" is just a brief plan, getting at least a second opinion on your design, and analyzing a design for flaws. My teachers taught me useful techniques applicable to a wide variety of situations. They taught me to formalize problems and identify existing solutions instead of viewing every problem as a completely unique situation. They introduced me to types of development tools I hadn't realized existed. While I question the value of some of my college courses, most of my computer science courses were taught by skilled, inspiring people and I am confident that they made me a better programmer today.

      I wasn't clear on my point.

      You became a good programmer because you wanted to become a good programmer, your teacher didn't make you a good programmer.

      I think that distinction is lost on students sometimes. They feel that they paid for a class, show up half the time and get mad that they weren't turned into good programmers by their teachers. The article is suggesting that the teacher should somehow do a magic act that will get the students to magically work hard and become good programmers.

      My point was that a competent teacher would suffice if the student is motivated. Only when it gets to graduate school, should the quality of the professors matter.

    46. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by ChaosDiscord · · Score: 1

      The article is suggesting that the teacher should somehow do a magic act that will get the students to magically work hard and become good programmers.

      My point was that a competent teacher would suffice if the student is motivated.

      I don't think that was his point at all. I think he is suggesting that the current system crushes motivation by taking a genuinely interest subject and turning it into mindless drudgery. Sure, some students will be motivated enough to see past the crap and go on to shine anyway. But some will be motivated, but not enough to survive the system. They'll end up with the idea, "I'm bad at math," when in fact they problem is that they're bad at rote memorization and robotic manipulation that aren't actually the core of math.

      Besides, isn't part of the job of a competant teacher to motivate students who aren't? No, they can't work miracles, but they can help students on the edge.

    47. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, this. I wish I had points to mod you up.
       

      One big problem (though not the only one) is that math lacks MEANING to a lot of students. The solution isn't to simply insist that it has inherent beauty and dammit why can't you see that! The solution is to look at all the students on a case by case basis and ask yourself how you can make math meaningful to them (not to yourself). I hear all the time from people that they think math is "mental masturbation", it may be partly sour grapes but I think it may also be because people like Lockhart want it to be like masturbation: inherently pleasurable but not really achieving anything practical. Chances are he might generate a lot of interest and enthusiasm in the students with a similar bent but some of the students with more practical personality types will forever be turned off by the discipline, which is a shame because it's a rich and diverse subject that could really benefit from all types of personalities (if not in the actual theoretical development and research, then in the applications).
       

      I say this as someone who used build polyhedra from cardboard as well as trig proofs that weren't assigned because they were fun (and I also love philosophy and pretty much anything theoretical or conceptual), so if even I think Lockhart is a little extreme in his recommendations, then I'd be really scared to know what more practical and down to earth people would think.
       

      I do agree with Lockhart on many points, though. In particular, I think he's right about the standardized curriculum being too rigid. I'm not sure I would endorse integrated math 100% (I believe that's where you don't have Algebra, Geom., Trig., Calculus, but instead have Math 1, Math 2, Math 3, and so on) but the current system is very limiting and I fear comprehensiveness (read: being able to satisfy all the items on a really long checklist) may be detracting from the quality of education you could get with a more relaxed and free-form approach.
       

      There are also broader issues such as the problems of society and culture as a whole that impact the students before the first class even starts. The combined recommendations of Lockhart and myself would not fix the real underlying problems. This may seem strange but the best thing might actually be more movies like Pi and Good Will Hunting. If you can make it seem cool and worthwhile OUTSIDE of the classroom, it will be that much easier to teach inside the classroom. There are lots of possibilities with xkcd, Google, YouTube, Wikipedia, and now Mathematica. I sort of agree with the other poster who thought Wikipedia was a little jargon-laden, but look at it this way, it's better than nothing and certainly more than I had access to when I was in school. I had Microsoft Encarta and thought I had it good. God, that makes me feel old :(

    48. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by lessthan · · Score: 1

      Why wouldn't they figure it out? Also, why are you equating well-like with teaching ability? Isn't it the tough teachers, the ones that pushed you, the ones you learned the most from?

      --
      Space Shuttle was a program that strapped humans to an explosion and tried to stab through the sky with fire and math
    49. Re:I Sympathize With Him But Too Idyllic by ahabswhale · · Score: 1

      Actually, it was the teachers that were the most engaging that I liked the best even in cases where I wasn't interested in their subject. For example, in high school I had history teacher who was awesome. Mind you, at the time I couldn't give a shit abut history but he was so good at teaching it that I looked forward to his class over all the other ones I was taking at the time. His tests were hard. His class was hard (harder than any college classes I've taken even) but I didn't give a shit about that. I only got a C in his class but is was mainly because I didn't do all the homework he assigned. In any event, I would have never given him a bad rating. He rocked, I didn't, simple as that. Oh, and after all these years I still remember him and his class. I've forgotten almost everyone else.

      --
      Are agnostics skeptical of unicorns too?
  8. it's really bad by Lord+Ender · · Score: 4, Insightful

    High school students are forced to write proofs as part of geometry class. However, they are never taught the rules of logic before being asked to write these proofs. That is just one example of how horribly, horribly stupid the HS math curriculum is in the US.

    --
    A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    1. Re:it's really bad by LordKazan · · Score: 1

      I'm excellent with logic and I had a terrible time with proofs. Both in HS geometry and in Discrete Math and Theory of Computing in my CS degree. Good proofs are a form of artistry as far as I'm concerned. They certainly can do a lot better job teaching how to do them - but some people will always be better at it.

      --
      If you cannot keep politics out of your moderation remove yourself from the Mod Lottery.. NOW!
    2. Re:it's really bad by gbarules2999 · · Score: 1

      I was taught the logic part of the deal and I still hated proofs. You decide.

    3. Re:it's really bad by Lord+Ender · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I agree, but that's not my point. My point is that understanding the formal rules of logic is fundamental to being able to understand proofs. But the bureaucrats who came up with the US math curriculum just said "the kids should learn this and this and this" but never attempted to put those things in the right order so that it was even possible for them to learn all those things.

      It's no wonder kids think they are bad at math or hate the subject--it is presented to them in an impossible form.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    4. Re:it's really bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are you talking about? Middle school geometry (that's what it is whether it's taught in high school or not) has really simply proofs where each line is the result of the application of a single proof rule. You don't need axiomatic or natural logic or type theory or any of that stuff. Even Euclid got by with a few axioms and a few (unnecessary) definitions.

    5. Re:it's really bad by LordKazan · · Score: 1

      You're right when you say Bureaucrats.. No honest educational professional would be behind many of the debates (evolution baiting anyone?) we see all over the US.

      The only thing that should be done nationally is a standardized curriculum : IE All schools [public and private] in the US must teach atleast THIS to give a HS diploma. Just to make things equitable. In reality a HS diploma from my state, from the public schools in Cedar Rapids and Des Moines are worth A LOT more than an HS diploma from... say mississippi.. but they're treated the same. Same thing with public education in my home town and say.. the religious school that's science textbook had this for evolution:

      "Evolution

      There is absolutely no evidence that this ever has happened."

      that was it's entire entry.

      We need standardization, but not rote memorization like NCLB has forced many schools to implement. I graduated from high school in 2002. I had been taking standardized tests for years* and my teachers were great and not "just teaching the test" as became common after NCLB.

      * always scored top notch.. was Iowa Test of Basic Skills (ITBS) prior to HS and Iowa Test of Education Development (ITED) in HS. Always scored top... one of my friends filled in the dots in an artistic pattern.. still scored higher than some of the educational FAILdrones in our class who tried.. was pathetic.

      ================

      If we start treating education as what it is, an investment in the future national security and economic strength of our country, and spending on it accordingly we might get somewhere.

      We're failing to recruit valuable teachers these days due to 3 decades of attacks on our schools by the Christian Supremacist movement and conservatives as a whole. (Read The Fundamentals of Extremism sometime) - almost all the great teachers I had in HS went early retirement the year after I graduated because of budget cuts

      --
      If you cannot keep politics out of your moderation remove yourself from the Mod Lottery.. NOW!
    6. Re:it's really bad by Gat0r30y · · Score: 1

      This is "teaching to the test" at its worst. Proofs are on the exams to get money. Improved curriculum doesn't do anything if the standardized exams don't change too. I had plenty of good teachers, who wanted to teach - and ended up basically prepping students to perform well on standardized exams just so funding wouldn't get slashed.
      While we are on the subject - the whole public school system is no longer really teaching kids anything of value. Its basically an expensive babysitting service. What exactly is a high school graduate qualified for anymore?

      --
      Prediction: The real iPhone killer is going to be sex robots from Japan. Think about it.
    7. Re:it's really bad by NewbieProgrammerMan · · Score: 1

      So I shouldn't have enjoyed all those proofs in geometry and trig, then? Dammit, why doesn't anybody tell me these things--here I was growing up without knowing there's only one proper order in which to learn things!

      --
      [b.belong('us') for b in bases if b.owner() == 'you']
    8. Re:it's really bad by LordKazan · · Score: 1

      that depends on the state. if you're not in the top 10 states.. you're screwed these days. Iowa sat top 5 for a LONG time fortunately. One of our biggest exports is educated young people. Hell if it wasn't for the economy causing hiring freezes at a lot of software shops I would have been one of those exported educated young people to!

      --
      If you cannot keep politics out of your moderation remove yourself from the Mod Lottery.. NOW!
    9. Re:it's really bad by delphi125 · · Score: 1

      The problem with proofs has nothing to do with logic.

      It is necessary to be able to understand proofs, but duplicating them under exam conditions means you have to memorize them by rote.

      At a certain point (for me it was the Cambridge maths tripos part IB) you are going to get exposed to maths you have to do but don't fully understand.

      People who can memorise the proofs but only understand them partially do better than people than those who understand the material better, but prefer to "solve a problem" and struggle to memorize a proof verbatim.

    10. Re:it's really bad by LordKazan · · Score: 1

      um.. we were never able to duplicate by rote on my exams that involved proofs in college. we were given "similiar" but not "same". if you understood the materially you at least got partial credit. if you tried "rote memorization" you failed.

      --
      If you cannot keep politics out of your moderation remove yourself from the Mod Lottery.. NOW!
    11. Re:it's really bad by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      For the mathematically uninclined such as myself, would someone care to explain what proofs are?

      I'm led to believe that it's the equivalent of "show your work". A lot of kids - damn, most kids - hate "showing their work". I think this largely has to do with the fact that math seems to be taught as the means to an end, when its really an exercise in logic.

      Also, do proofs have to be heavy in the details, or can they be light? For instance, if you had 10 x 20 as a problem, many of us remember the trick we were taught when multiplying numbers with zeroes at the end: set aside the zeroes, multiply the remaining integers, and then append all of the zeroes to the end. (So 10 x 20 would be 1 x 2 = 2, and then append the two zeroes at the end for 200.) So, in the case of proofs, would simply using such a trick be acceptable, or would you have to write out the whole process (carrying numbers if need be, etc.)?

      Largely I'm interested in knowing what they are so I can understand what the hell Rodney McKay was making such a big deal about. d:

    12. Re:it's really bad by Sage+Gaspar · · Score: 1

      I think that logic and, more broadly, philosophy would be absolutely excellent additions to the high school curriculum, but you really do not need any formal knowledge of mathematical logic to do Euclidean geometry. It's a great introduction to the basic idea of math, starting with a set of facts and deducing a conclusion. People have intuition about geometry in the plane, and introducing more formalism would just obscure everything.

      The temptation once you know a lot of math is that math should be a sequential subject where you build up from axioms. If you actually try to teach using this method, by which I mean heaping formalism on students before they need it, you'll find out that it just doesn't stick. That isn't even really how mathematicians do math. Usually the intuition leads to the formalism. People were working with the natural numbers for thousands of years before we decided to nail it down with ZFC.

    13. Re:it's really bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is necessary to be able to understand proofs, but duplicating them under exam conditions means you have to memorize them by rote.

      When I intuitively understand why something is true I never have trouble formulating a proof. For example, following a lazy three years at Oxford I spent the three weeks before my Maths finals learning all the definitions for the maths I was supposed to know. I didn't learn any proofs. And I got a first.

    14. Re:it's really bad by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I don't know. I think maybe you are falling for the because I saw it, it must be true logic problem. Education is actually controlled by each state and the territories by the federal government. Some states write broads guidelines and leave it to the counties to fill in the gaps. This is something the NCLBA was supposed to address by creating a guideline of what should be expected for a student to know after each grade level and supposedly if the states created a standard similar enough, tested the student's abilities and then showed progress when they didn't meet that, they were going to get a certain amount of federal funding to be used. Of course this was met with mass resistance when the teachers couldn't pass the performance tests.

      The problem is that I do remember getting an overview on the rules of logic in the course before advanced geometry. We had to take pre-algebra for half a year and intro to geometry the other half in 7th or 8th grade, then two algebra courses, then an advanced geometry course another algebra course, pre-calculus and if you were advanced enough you moved on to calculus and AP courses. Of course there was other math course options like Statistics and what they called integrated math which focused generic math skills until you got to career tech integrated math that focused more on specific aspects and formulas for various industries like carpentry and house building, electronics, drafting, auto repair, and so on. So the problem isn't the HS math curriculum in the US, it's the HS math Curriculum in certain states or counties within the US.

      There is no one place to make any change to the schools procedures or curriculum.

    15. Re:it's really bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    16. Re:it's really bad by fermion · · Score: 1
      Students are not machines. Some students are going to build rules from examples. Some are going to want the rules, then apply them to examples. Some are going to want only to know how to solve the problem then mimic the process on similar problems. Some are simply going to copy the proof from another student.

      The challenge of US education is to meet the need of all these students. When someone comes up with a complaint, it is normally that things are not being taught in the way that they learn. The fallacy is that if one teaches to one student, then everyone else does not learn. It is never acceptable to always teach to the same students. A competent teacher is going to teach an subject from many different angles so that each student has at least on opportunity to learn in their style. For instance, in a class of four students, I might have one that learns by reading, one that learns by working out the solution for themselves, one that likes lecture, and one that is just not to learn anything at a high level no matter what is done. This is not a atypical situation.

      How in such a class can I teach using a single method, such a problem based learning, constructive learning, or drill and kill. Like how could any administrator remove any tool from my case simply because someone who doesn't teach thinks it is a bad idea. If it helps a student learn something, it is a good idea.

      I hear complaints like the one posted all the time. It normally comes from 'experts' how thinks that everyone is like them. Well, everyone isn't. The world is diverse. Some students really do like math, and no matter what anyone does they will learn math. A person in the jungle of Nigeria, with no light or proper books learns math simply because the love it. Is a child in America with electricity and books and teachers who are willing to help any worse off? for students who are just getting a diploma, the math classes provide a basis. Then the teachers have to deal with the kids that don't want to learn. We can't kick them out. They are just kids. They deserve an education. Some might say it is unfair to the other kids, but I think it is unfair that I have to be late to work because someone does not know how to drive and gets into an accident, or I can't have explosives because some idiot killed themselves and others with them. Life is unfair.

      School is not the aesthetic environment that mathematicians tends to live, which is one reason why it is so hard to find good math teachers. if one genuinely feels that math education sucks, and that you can do better, go teach. I can guarantee you that good math teachers are so desperately needed that you can pretty do whatever you want, and if it works you will be rewarded. The flip side of that is that a math teacher has to be honest enough to accept empirical evidence, and when something does not work to adjust the process or try something else.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    17. Re:it's really bad by rpillala · · Score: 1

      I'm actually researching methods of teaching proof right now for a class in Educational Assessment. I have become convinced that:

      • teachers are doing it wrong
      • while teachers would like students to appreciate the necessity of proof and proofs in mathematics, they take no steps to convey this
      • There is a conception among that higher ups that some students are not ready to be taught about proof
      • encouraging students to demand proof before they accept propositions runs counter to the way schools operate and counter to what students get in their other classes

      In my experience, proofs are best taught as a conversation between the student and the teacher. The way I do it, it's mostly me asking questions.

      You might also find the Moore method of interest.

      Without proof, we're engaged in sort of a math history course. "Here are some old problems and here is how someone solved them." That's if we're lucky. More often, it's "if you see foo do bar" - simple conditionining. Teachers use mnemonic devices to help students associate one thing with another, skipping the sense-making portion of the learning.

      I teach high school math myself, and I'm pretty disheartened by the current state.

      --
      When the axe came to the forest, the trees said, "Look out - the handle was once one of us."
    18. Re:it's really bad by chebucto · · Score: 1

      I'm just becoming reacquainted with math, and here is a proof I encoutered recently, showing that the square root (sqrt()) of 2 is not a rational number:

      Proof of sqrt(2) != rational number:

      suppose sqrt(2) = rational number:

      then, sqrt(2) = m/n, where m = integer, n = non-zero integer (see definition of rational number), where n is the lowest common denominator

      thus,
      sqrt(2) = m/n
      2 = m^2/n^2
      2n^2 = m^2

      we now know that m is an even number, for squares of even numbers are always even, and squares of odd numbers are always odd; if m^2 can be expressed as double the square of an integer, it must be even.

      then, knowing m is even, we can create a new number q, which is m/2. Thus, m = 2q, m^2 = 4q^2
      so

      2n^2 = 4q^2
      n^2 = 2q^2

      thus, n is an even number (see reasoning for m being an even number)

      so, if m and n must be even numbers, m/n cannot be a fraction at the lowest common denominator

      thus sqrt(2) cannot be expressed as a rational number

      thus sqrt(2) is not a rational number, thus sqrt(2) is an irrational number.

      This is the proof as I understand it - starting from axioms (definition of a rational number, algrebraic rules), and arriving at a conclusion.

      And yes, as I understand it, you have to write out every step to show the proof - though at times you are relying on assmptions taken as read (ig the properties of squares).

      It's a lot to take in, but it is very rule-based, and, if broken down into small bits, can be digestible (I hope!)

      -- Soon-to-be student of 1st year calc

      --
      The English word fart is one of the oldest words in the English vocabulary.
    19. Re:it's really bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Way not to read tfp. As he mentions to your predicted response, wouldn't you enjoy it even more if it was done in a more natural style? Anyone else want to yell out some gut reactions before reading?

    20. Re:it's really bad by cbs4385 · · Score: 1

      Proofs are pretty simple, but they can be long. Basically, for a proof, you start out with a set of axioms (things which are by definition true), and a pool of things like Laws, Theories, Postulates, and Lemmas. Those are basically well known results of combining the axioms above (sort of like open source black boxes, you feed it the right inputs, and out the other end comes the output). To do a proof, you start with your problem, and your toolkit from above. Then you go set by set, just like in school where you had to show your work. The difference is that for each set, you have to justify why something like (A + 5 = B) == (A = B - 5) by reference to the tools or something that you have in a previous step derived from the tools. The prood shows you how to get from point A to B and guarentees that you never go off the path while doing it.

    21. Re:it's really bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Were you? I'm asking because you fail to understand the premises. You're required to understand logic to write proofs. Even if I believed you actually learned logic, stating that you didn't enjoy it even if you were taught logic, has nothing to do with the first statement.

    22. Re:it's really bad by jandrese · · Score: 1

      Another question to ask: Since you have graduated college and moved on to the professional field, how many times have you been asked to formally prove your work? Sure some people do it here and there, but for the majority of students it is not a useful skill. I know that the people who actually do this look down with disdain at those of us who don't, but I'd wager that in total their numbers are pretty small.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    23. Re:it's really bad by nine-times · · Score: 1

      That is just one example of how horribly, horribly stupid the HS math curriculum is in the US.

      I don't know, but to me that sounds more like evidence that the classes in elementary school and middle school are stupid. You should understand basic logic and even basic geometry before you get to high school. If a high school student isn't able to comprehend the idea of a geometry proof, then the education system has already failed him (or her).

    24. Re:it's really bad by gbarules2999 · · Score: 1

      The simple way to keep proofs interesting it to look at the part: "while teachers would like students to appreciate the necessity of proof and proofs in mathematics, they take no steps to convey this."

      Yes, teachers I see do try to convey this (and mine did a great job doing so, considering the effort), but they don't really convince anyone. Most students will say, "Why should I prove this is true when you can tell me it is and I can see that it works?" Students aren't all that interested in wondering whether something is true or not.

      I'm saying this as a student here: make proofs less about the method and more about why they exist. Keep asking students, "Why do you know that this is true?" If there's a smart kid in the bunch, they'll start catching on.

    25. Re:it's really bad by ewenix · · Score: 1

      If we taught logic in schools, pretty soon we wouldn't have anyone left who was "qualified" to be a politician.

    26. Re:it's really bad by NewbieProgrammerMan · · Score: 1

      I wasn't responding to The Fine Paper, I was responding to a comment made by a person on Slashdot (where we don't read The Fine Paper anyway).

      And I really doubt I would have enjoyed seeing proofs more if I'd learned the rules of logic first.

      --
      [b.belong('us') for b in bases if b.owner() == 'you']
    27. Re:it's really bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, should they be taught binary (classical) logic as the logic that describes reality and then be punished when they ask: and why implication is true whenever antecedent is false?

      Even the founder of this way of thinking, Aristotle, had a problem with that and created first modal logic. Are we going to force 80% of people that don't get it, to believe they are wrong and punish them that their brain doesn't work as the brain of a mathematician prototype?

      And anyway, I find Hilbert Proof System disgusting, I rather use Smullyan's semantic tableaux whenever possible. Should we teach kids this?

    28. Re:it's really bad by NewbieProgrammerMan · · Score: 1

      My point is that understanding the formal rules of logic is fundamental to being able to understand proofs.

      Really? I couldn't tell you what the formal rules of logic are to save my life, and as far as I know nobody ever tried to teach me what they were. I've not had any trouble with proofs, though.

      --
      [b.belong('us') for b in bases if b.owner() == 'you']
    29. Re:it's really bad by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      So it's a lot like a legal brief, but in the end it actually makes sense. Thanks!

    30. Re:it's really bad by NewbieProgrammerMan · · Score: 1

      Well said. I presume you're a teacher; if so, your students are lucky to have you. :)

      --
      [b.belong('us') for b in bases if b.owner() == 'you']
    31. Re:it's really bad by gbarules2999 · · Score: 1

      Since you have graduated college and moved on to the professional field

      I haven't. I just graduated; I'm fresh out of school.

    32. Re:it's really bad by gbarules2999 · · Score: 1

      I just wanted to point out that "logic" isn't just the missing part of the puzzle. It's a hard egg to swallow sometimes, as a concept in general, and takes more thna additional material to conquer. A better teacher, for example.

      You AC's need to settle down. Geez. You're going to hurt somebody.

    33. Re:it's really bad by PRMan · · Score: 1

      Funny, most textbooks don't even have a blurb that big on Creation Science, despite it having a lot to say...

      Or is it only a travesty when the side you favor is left out?

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    34. Re:it's really bad by the+phantom · · Score: 2, Informative

      You are confusing mathematics with arithmetic. Arithmetic is the manipulation of digits that are used to represent numbers in order to get a result. That is, addition, subtraction, multiplication, etc. In arithmetic, it is important to "show your work" in that it helps an instructor to understand what you have done, and where you might have made mistakes. Arithmetic is a subfield of mathematics, but does not comprise the whole. Mathematics, on the other hand, is the search for a certain kind of "truth." In mathematics, we start with a set of assumptions about how the universe works (we call these axioms), then use logic to work out what those axioms imply. A proof consists of the details of the logical process used to work out new truths.

      You might want to have a look through the articles on Wikipedia about logic, predicate-logic, and mathematical proofs.

    35. Re:it's really bad by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      I assume you studied computer science or software engineering. What college could graduate students without teaching them logic? It's fundamental to understanding digital circuits, nevermind mathematical proofs.

      Humans have an innate sense of logic (well, most of them), but that's not enough for you to /really/ understand mathematical proofs, especially if you're talking about something like inductive proofs by contradiction.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    36. Re:it's really bad by bnenning · · Score: 1

      Funny, most textbooks don't even have a blurb that big on Creation Science, despite it having a lot to say... [answersingenesis.org]

      That is a shame. It would be an excellent resource in political science and marketing classes to show how to lie out of your ass and get millions of people to believe you.

      --
      How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
    37. Re:it's really bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For instance, if you had 10 x 20 as a problem, many of us remember the trick we were taught when multiplying numbers with zeroes at the end: set aside the zeroes, multiply the remaining integers, and then append all of the zeroes to the end. (So 10 x 20 would be 1 x 2 = 2, and then append the two zeroes at the end for 200.)

      That's not a "trick". That's math.

      10x20
      10x1x10x2
      100x1x2
      100x2
      200

    38. Re:it's really bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Students are not machines. Some students are going to build rules from examples. Some are going to want the rules, then apply them to examples. Some are going to want only to know how to solve the problem then mimic the process on similar problems. Some are simply going to copy the proof from another student.

      The bolded group of students shouldn't be in the same classes as the students mentioned before them. It's clear that the first group of students is interested in the theory of the math while the second group is either not interested at all or only interested in it's applications. Meet your future theorists and engineers.

    39. Re:it's really bad by ittybad · · Score: 1

      The process of teaching, in many areas (especially math) is so legislated and prescribed by administrators as to be nearly impossible to teach in any significant way.

      Read " If We Taught English the Way We Teach Mathematics... " to get an interesting view on how math is taught today.

      --
      No single raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood.
    40. Re:it's really bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hello fellow Cedarapidian! Okay, no, I'm an ex-pat of 15 years. I imagine you're talking of those nutbars at Isaac Newton. Freaks, all of em, the poor, ignorant, benighted bastards. I take it that biology education's improved in public education since I was in CR--we didn't even mention evolution at Kennedy back in the early 90's. Also ignore PRMan, he's another nutbar, although with your number I bet you could tell that already.

    41. Re:it's really bad by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      Geometry is a grade 9 or 10 class in the US.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    42. Re:it's really bad by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      Well, I would like to see logic in particular taught it school, not just because of all the "WTF" moments from proofs in math class, but also because it would put a stop to a lot of the most deceptive politicians and hucksters. If the average man could cry out "that's a simple modus ponens error!" when someone twisted their logic backward, we would live in a better world.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    43. Re:it's really bad by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you are right in that some learn by example (mimickers?) while others learn by applying the rules (thinkers?), and so the school decided to teach logical proofs without first teaching logic because they were catering to the mimickers.

      Even so, that's a mistake! They should both! At least speed over the rules of logic before trying to teach proof-writing by example! Don't just give the finger to your thinkers.

      I had sooooooo many moments in college where I thought, "why in the hell didn't they just tell is that in high school??" Maybe they were trying to dumb things down so much that only an idiot could understand?

      If my criticism is too harsh, I apologize. But I lost a lot of respect for my HS teachers while in college. I really should have been allowed to just audit the college courses, I think. Perhaps HS teachers should be required to do so, too.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    44. Re:it's really bad by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      Tell that to the half dozen or so of my teachers over the years who said that wasn't good enough.

    45. Re:it's really bad by RogonIII · · Score: 1

      Eh.. what kind of logic? Are you talking about classical logic? Even classical logic is tainted with flaws. Let me give you an example. "If P then P.and P", where P is some proposition is quite legal using classical logic [P => (P /\ P)]. Put P to mean "I have a dollar", and you can easily see that we're in for some trouble. [Girard's linear logic, essentially started in the late 1980s - not too long ago - started addressing these issues.] It is important not to be too hung up on the mechanics of proof theory as much as it is folly to think that one can put concepts such as geometry into the constricting confines of axiomatic theory. How incredibly inelegant and off the point is the standard epsilon-delta proof for continuity! Logic should be taught, but there is no need to grind into the students to boring mechanisms underlying our logic systems. Oh, and please do read the article!

    46. Re:it's really bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amen.

    47. Re:it's really bad by Lost+Engineer · · Score: 1

      Perhaps it is not wrong to get an introduction to logic by viewing some examples (proofs) rather than starting with the essences of logic which, as you pointed out, are somewhat intuitive for most people. It's sort of like learning to speak by listening rather than by studying the way the mouth moves. *Insert gratuitous car analogy here.

    48. Re:it's really bad by NewbieProgrammerMan · · Score: 1

      I assume you studied computer science or software engineering. ... Humans have an innate sense of logic (well, most of them), but that's not enough for you to /really/ understand mathematical proofs, especially if you're talking about something like inductive proofs by contradiction.

      No, I was a math major. I made it through my undergrad and masters, with several graduate classes in real and complex analysis that were nothing but proofs, with induction, contradiction, etc. I got A's in those classes. I suppose I just picked up logic by example, the way someone might figure out how physical tools work without sitting in a formal class about them.

      --
      [b.belong('us') for b in bases if b.owner() == 'you']
    49. Re:it's really bad by JBaustian · · Score: 1

      I thought of mathematical proofs as a game, and I enjoyed working them. But there were only a handful of us who felt that way.

    50. Re:it's really bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think that most of you here should speak a bit more carefully. It is quite obvious that few of those posting have any first hand insight into this topic. I am a HS math teacher and while I can give a laundry list of everything that needs to change in the educational system, I will stand up and say that there is a LOT of recent changes in the approaches to math education. In just the last 5 or so years there have been a number of states that have really re-vamped their curriculum to reflect the need for a more meaningful experience for students. GA, for one, recently re-wrote all of the math standards for the K-12 curriculum and while the ideas for, sequence, and purpose of their integrated curriculum is beautiful, students (especially those in high-risk areas) are failing horribly because it is such a radical shift in academic culture and expectations. ... and yes, most state curriculums DO teach the principles of logic before teaching proof.

  9. The way math is structured is disconnected from... by blahplusplus · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ... interesting things kids want to do.

    Lets face it a minority of people will like math, but matehmaticians have done a lot to make mathematics overly complicated.

    I struggled with the symbolic format math was presented in highschool because it was so disconnected from the world, only as I got older did I realize how arbitrary and how that was only one way to present mathematics. To really teach math one must learn how to observe first before one even gets into symbolic computation, math at it's most basic is about observing relationships, patterns of : Size, ratio, proportion, etc. It's really a language invented to systematize structure and relationships of the real world, therefore how math is represented and structured and is taught matters a hell of a lot.

    I've learned over the years that many mathematical systems are totally arbitrary are are more obtuse then they need to be, math comes from the simplest observations. Math has built up a lot of cruft and wasteful jargon disconnecting math from the world.

    For instance I had no idea for a long time that the way math is structured could be restructured when I was young and it was one group of peoples perspective on mathematical principles, I came across debates and alernative systems like:

    http://www.symmetryperfect.com/

    And it showed me how arbitrary mathematical systems and their structures really are and they are built to suit particular kinds of minds or cultures.

    For instance the ancient mayans used shapes for numbers, instead of 1, 2, 3

    See here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_numerals

    Math is a very rich subject which unfortunately has a lot of cultish like people who think themselves the gatekeepers of mathematics.

    I've thought about writing a book in my spare time about how badly mathematicians and the academia has blinded themselves to simplifying mathematics by focusing too much on symbolic jargon and not teaching children how 'mathematical' relationships are related to our simplest observations of the world: Size, shape, form, color, motion, etc.

  10. OP's feelings about the article by grepya · · Score: 1

    If you like math, and more so if you think you don't like math, I implore you to read his essay with every atom of my being.... I defy you to read and find a single sentence that isn't permeated, suffused, soaked, and encrusted with truth

        I don't know Scott.... I'm getting mixed messages from you about the article. Why don't you open up and tell us what you really think ;-)

  11. True story .... by gstoddart · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In university, I was taking an intro philosophy course on critical reasoning.

    We had covered the concept of statistical significance. The example we'd used was a case of "0.05" meaning we had 95% confidence in the statistical results. On the exam, the professor made a typo, and the question read "how much certainty with a statistical confidence of 0.5", to which the correct answer is 50%.

    I was marked as wrong, and when I complained, the professor indicated that since we'd never covered that example, and only covered 0.05 in class, it was assumed that was what she meant.

    I informed her for someone teaching critical reasoning, she wasn't demonstrating any. I also insisted I get the credit for giving the actual correct answer (which I and everyone who answered it correctly did).

    If that's indicative of how math is taught nowadays, we're all hosed. :-P

    Cheers

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    1. Re:True story .... by retchdog · · Score: 1

      And years later, you would learn it's never really 95% anyway (nominal vs. actual level; all models are wrong; &c.).

      But what a ghastly example. It made me cringe.

      --
      "They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
    2. Re:True story .... by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      No, that's just indicative of lazy teachers. Since most humans are lazy and all teachers are human, this is to be expected.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    3. Re:True story .... by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      And years later, you would learn it's never really 95% anyway

      Which was well outside of the scope of that class anyway.

      But what a ghastly example. It made me cringe.

      Truly, it was ghastly. Especially since it was a course on logic and reasoning.

      Cheers

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    4. Re:True story .... by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      No, that's just indicative of lazy teachers.

      Which, if one is decrying the state of education, is a valid concern.

      If the teachers are doing it by rote, how the hell can the kids be expected to grasp the underlying concept?

      Cheers

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    5. Re:True story .... by Gunnut1124 · · Score: 2, Informative

      If that's indicative of how math is taught nowadays, we're all hosed.

      It is. We are.

      --
      America is all about speed. Hot, nasty, badass speed. -Eleanor Roosevelt, 1936
    6. Re:True story .... by Neil+Blender · · Score: 1

      "No, that's just indicative of lazy teachers. Since most humans are lazy and all teachers are human, this is to be expected."

      In college, I found it's more likely that profs refuse to admit they are wrong. I got dinged more than once for typos/errors in books that the professor wrote for the class.

    7. Re:True story .... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If that's indicative of how math is taught nowadays, we're all hosed. :-P

      It is. Public Schools are all about regurgitating back what the teacher said in class on a piece of paper, regardless of what the question/numbers actually say.

      It's sickening.

    8. Re:True story .... by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      As an engineer, I try to design systems which function even when humans behave as humans. The educational system should have similar goals.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    9. Re:True story .... by JumpDrive · · Score: 1

      We're hosed

    10. Re:True story .... by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      As an engineer, I try to design systems which function even when humans behave as humans. The educational system should have similar goals.

      Sir, if you can come up with an engineering solution which takes human behavior out of the equation in education and still produces results, then I believe you deserve to make a lot of money with it.

      Cheers

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    11. Re:True story .... by nine-times · · Score: 1

      If that's indicative of how math is taught nowadays, we're all hosed.

      Meh, I would sooner guess that it's indicative of how retarded philosophy is in modern academia. It's just not taken seriously, and in the cases that it is, it's an exercise in being an obtuse pompous ass. From some of the philosophy professors I've met and listened to, I would guess that you may as well have been talking to a high school art teacher.

      (no offense to any philosophy professors out there, but if you're a good one, then I hope you know what I'm referring to)

    12. Re:True story .... by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

      You have just discovered the difference between philosophers and mathematicians.

      Mathematicians find truths.
      Philosophers "interpret" truths.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    13. Re:True story .... by rkit · · Score: 1

      Obvious question: what is 95% confidence supposed to mean? How is it different from say 94%?

      As long as the student cannot come up with something like "there is a chance of 5 in 100 that the result was caused by the sampling process" he has no idea what he is talking about.

      Speaking of critical thinking, the student should also understand that one in twenty results with 95% confidence will be wrong.

      --
      sig intentionally left blank
    14. Re:True story .... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Thank you for illustrating your point with a fallacious syllogism.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    15. Re:True story .... by EEBaum · · Score: 1

      Ugh, that reminds me of this leadership retreat I went to (in college, mind you).

      We did one of those "rank the 40 things you would bring with you to a desert island" exercises, where you then compare your answers to an expert's. We did a list on our own, then we did one as a group.

      We then got our group score, and did some seemingly unnecessary math to it, and voila! The group got a perfect score! "I don't know how it works, but it always does! When we work together, we always get a superior score! Teamwork is Awesome!" announced the retreat facilitator proudly.

      I immediately recognized that, to get the group score out of 100, the math we had just done was...

      score = a + (100 - a)

      So... If 100 = 100, then Teamwork is Awesome!

      Arguing until I was red in the face would not convince the lady that she had drawn a conclusion based on 1=1. Insistence on "I've been doing this for 15 years, and it's always worked!" led me to believe that I'm the first attendee of that retreat in 15 years who could do math. I about cried. I remain highly skeptical about the value of teamwork to this day.

      --
      -- I prefer the term "karma escort."
    16. Re:True story .... by bograt · · Score: 1

      Your professor also seems to have the whole concept of "statistical significance" wrong. A significance level of 0.05 doesn't mean you have "95% confidence" in the results, it means there would be a 5% chance of the observed data being generated if the null hypothesis was true.

    17. Re:True story .... by arb+phd+slp · · Score: 1

      As an engineer, I try to design systems which function even when humans behave as humans. The educational system should have similar goals.

      Sir, if you can come up with an engineering solution which takes human behavior out of the equation in education and still produces results, then I believe you deserve to make a lot of money with it.

      Cheers

      I believe the technology is called a Skinnerbox. It didn't work.

      --
      There's a perfect xkcd for my sig but I'm too lazy to look it up. sudo someone go find it.
    18. Re:True story .... by PearsSoap · · Score: 1

      No, that's just indicative of lazy teachers. Since most humans are lazy and all teachers are human, this is to be expected.

      Let's check that with a tableau.

      1. âfx (H(x) -> L(x))

      |

      2. âx (T(x) -> H(x))

      |

      3. ~âfx (H(x) -> L(x))

      |

      4. (H(a) -> L(a)) (1. âf)

      |

      5. âx~(H(x) -> L(x)) (3. ~âf)

      |

      6. ~(H(a) -> L(a)) (4. âx)

      Yep, your argument appears valid. (Of course, the conclusion won't be true unless the premises are).

    19. Re:True story .... by Dravik · · Score: 1

      A Skinnerbox, Hmmm, if you put the kids in a box and skin them when they are wrong you will probably greatly improve their dedication and attention to detail. Might have some complains from the parents though.

      --
      The purpose of language is communication, If the idea is clear the grammar ain't important
    20. Re:True story .... by Sage+Gaspar · · Score: 1

      Alarm bells start going off in my head whenever someone claims that they are going to use math to prove the power of teamwork, friendship, love, god, or bagels :P

    21. Re:True story .... by Deadstick · · Score: 1

      Did you challenge the crackpo^H^H^Hfacilitator to produce a set of scores that would NOT come up with 100?

      rj

    22. Re:True story .... by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      Alarm bells start going off in my head whenever someone claims that they are going to use math to prove the power of teamwork, friendship, love, god, or bagels :P

      Do not underestimate the power of bagels. :-P

      Cheers

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    23. Re:True story .... by EEBaum · · Score: 1

      It was a lost cause. Anyways, pursuing the matter much further would have delayed lunch.

      --
      -- I prefer the term "karma escort."
    24. Re:True story .... by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      Haha, thanks. I thought along those lines when I wrote it, actually. Unfortunately, I only learned logic and probability as part of my college major. These subject are far more important than calculus or advanced algebra, so they really should be taught to everyone in HS.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    25. Re:True story .... by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      Why do you say it is false? Without any data on laziness distribution by occupation, it is the best possible estimate, and logically sound.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    26. Re:True story .... by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      Your professor also seems to have the whole concept of "statistical significance" wrong. A significance level of 0.05 doesn't mean you have "95% confidence" in the results, it means there would be a 5% chance of the observed data being generated if the null hypothesis was true.

      Apologies if I've borked the statistics part of it. Mayhaps I'm referring to a confidence interval, which seems to more closely relate to my (100-x)% recollection.

      The anecdote wasn't intended to demonstrate my m4d sk1llz at statistics, but to demonstrate the ineptness of the prof involved. :-P

      Cheers

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    27. Re:True story .... by bograt · · Score: 1

      Okay, point taken :). I guess I'm just a pedant who hates to see statistics misused.

    28. Re:True story .... by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      Okay, point taken :). I guess I'm just a pedant who hates to see statistics misused.

      *laugh* A pedant on Slashdot? Say it isn't so? ;-)

      Cheers

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    29. Re:True story .... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      It is in the form of a syllogism, and appears to read: All teachers are human. Most humans are lazy. Therefore, most teachers are lazy.

      What validity it has depends on an unstated assumption that teachers are as lazy as anybody else. It isn't logically valid, although it has some plausibility.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    30. Re:True story .... by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      You are right that it does make an assumption about laziness distribution. So we'll call it a logical approximation, rather than a proper syllogism.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
  12. Could be worse... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    It could be the sad state of science education. Science is largely taught as memorization of facts, rather than a process for discovery. We turn out high school graduates who are easily suckered by such frauds as homeopathy and creationism...the latter of which in some places is actually taught as being science rather than its antithesis.

    1. Re:Could be worse... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Off topic, maybe, but whatever - science and creation myths are not antithetical to each other, they are complementary to each other. The various theories in cosmology and evolution are science - they are great at explaining how something happened. They are useful for understanding how our universe operates. You can use them to predict reactions to various input stimuli (the extent that this works usually gives some indication of how useful a theory is).

      Creation myths, on the other hand, fulfill a different purpose - they explain why something happens/happened. Teaching them as science is silly and dangerous, I agree. But teaching that they are antithetical to science just breeds unnescessary conflict. Even athiests have their own creation myth - "It just happened". Agnostics have theirs - "I don't know / can't know / don't care how it happened". Christians have theirs - "God made it". Pastafarians have theirs - "The Flying Spaghetti Monster drank too much.", etc... Anyway, the point is, it's about orienting yourself in the world as a being rather than a lump of matter.

    2. Re:Could be worse... by PRMan · · Score: 1

      Yes, because the thousands of repeatable experiments done using the scientific method by people with PhD's is the complete antithesis of science. Oh, and evolution and the big bang are perfect and cannot be challenged by anyone. If they are, it's not science.

      If you want to criticize Creation Science, fine. But all I ask is that you read some of it first, since, by your statements, you clearly never have.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    3. Re:Could be worse... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First, if there are thousands of repeatable experiments done using the scientific method by Ph.D.s to test predictions of scientific or intelligent design creationism, and that the results of these experiments bear out those predictions, then you should have no problem showing me where they are published in peer-reviewed journals, like Science, or Nature, or lower-ranked but quality journals like Journal of Molecular Biology. As far as I'm aware, they don't exist. However thousands of research papers are written on evolution each year as are thousands more in related fields. Don't believe me then Pubmed it yourself. Second, nobody claims evolution or any other scientific theory is perfect; all are conditional knowledge and subject to modification (and even refutation), hence all the research. You are just as wrong on your third point as you are on the first two. Reading up on and debating pseudoscience is a hobby of mine since I was in high school. I have sitting on my book shelf a pretty good collection of the stuff; I've got some L. Ron Hubbard, an old phrenology book ($.25 at a garage sale! Score!), some on homeopathy, UFOlogy, and Bigfoot. I've also got a shelf devoted to my favorite pseudoscience, creationism. I've got them (used!) starting with Whitcomb's 1960 creationist classic "The Genesis Flood" through the 70's and into the early 90's works by Morris, Gish, Ross, Ham, and others. After 1987's Edwards v. Aguillard Supreme Court beat-down creationism partially morphed into Intelligent Design Creationism, and I've got some of them, like Johnson's profoundly dishonest "Darwin on Trial." I've also got Behe's incredibly ignorant "Darwin's Black Box," one of Dembski's jello math books, and a couple lesser known items. That's just books that I own. I've read more over the years at the library, and am familiar with Answers in Genesis, the Discovery Institute, Institute for Creation Research, and others. They're all dishonest crap, and I know and read them partially because of the adage "know thine enemy" but really out of simple, morbid fascination.

      I've shown that I know and have read up on creationism. I doubt you've ever read anything on evolution that's newer than disco and/or that wasn't written by a creationist. So since I keep up on creationism how about you do the same on evolution and related science? Here's a suggested reading list:

      What Evolution Is by Ernst Mayr. One of the greatest scientific minds in the last 100 years writing for the general audience, and especially good for creationists as you often have very, very, odd and warped ideas as to what evolution is.

      The Making of the Fittest: DNA and the Ultimate Forensic Record of Evolution by Sean Carrol
      Endless Forms Most Beautiful: The New Science of Evo Devo also by Sean Carrol, an eminent scientist at the University of Wisconsin. Both excellent.

      Evolution for Everyone: How Darwin's Theory Can Change the Way We Think About Our Lives by David Sloan Wilson

      Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why It Matters by Donald R. Prothero and Carl Buell

      Your Inner Fish: A Journey into the 3.5-Billion-Year History of the Human Body by Neil Shubin. A perfect example of what wouldn't be possible in science if creationism were correct. Excellent read (mine's autographed!), and if you've got a chance to hear him give a talk, go!

      Why Evolution Is True by Jerry A. Coyne

      Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth Miller.

      Evolutionary Biology by Douglas J. Futuyma. If there's a gold standard for undergrad evolutionary biology textbooks, this one's it.

      Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond. Not really about evolution but demonstrates clearly the absurdity of a 6,000-year old earth and an excellent read besides.

      Most/all will be available at your local library, all are available at your local amazon.com. Start reading.

    4. Re:Could be worse... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      But what happens when your creation myth puts you at odds with someone else's creation myth? If they're just as arbitrary as you describe, and my creation myth tells me that my special God created the world so that He might subject all of those infidels who don't believe in Him to eternal torture, then am I right and justified in killing you and all of your family for believing different? Wouldn't it be better to all admit we really don't know so we have no reason to hate or kill each other? What do we do when an arbitrary answer to "why" is a license to hate?

      ---

      Posting anonymously because I might one day want to work in Bozeman

  13. Eh. by gbarules2999 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Found it here: http://plato.asu.edu/LockhartsLament.pdf

    The whole idea behind his essay is that he liked playing with numbers and shapes as if it's an art, but he doesn't seem to realize most people don't share this love for math, like pretty much 90% of any student population. This is me speaking as a just-graduated senior: the things he suggests is beyond the ability of most math students in high school.

    1. Re:Eh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the major point is that most students never have a base of reason when dealing with math. To them it's just arbitrary rules that they apply to some arbitrary numbers so they get an A. They never learn that those rules are arbitrary and are not right most of the time....

      for example, many first year students in engineering have a tough time grasping the concept of tolerance and significant digits.... and these are engineering students, they are already supposed to be good at math. The fact they don't understand such a simple concept out of high school is frightening...

    2. Re:Eh. by AnotherBlackHat · · Score: 2, Informative

      The whole idea behind his essay is that he liked playing with numbers and shapes as if it's an art, but he doesn't seem to realize most people don't share this love for math, like pretty much 90% of any student population. This is me speaking as a just-graduated senior: the things he suggests is beyond the ability of most math students in high school.

      I think you missed the point.
      His point IMO, is what we are teaching as "math" in school is totally useless and should be scrapped completely, because it's not even close to what math is.
      We don't need to teach math to 100% of the students, just as we don't insist that 100% of the students can paint landscapes, or bake brownies.

    3. Re:Eh. by egcagrac0 · · Score: 1

      the things he suggests is beyond the ability of most math students in high school.

      Really. The result of a broken system is that competent graduates who meet all the state requirements for conferment of a diploma are unable to grapple with these relatively basic concepts?

      Is it the students who are incapable, or are they merely inexperienced?

    4. Re:Eh. by jayme0227 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I read as much of the essay as I could before I realized that the guy doesn't understand that his experience doesn't apply to everyone else. I understand where he's coming from because I tell the worst stories imaginable. I will go on talking about little, highly interesting details, until I realize that I'm the only one who finds them interesting. It took me a long time to realize that, just because I find it interesting, that doesn't mean that other people will.

      To say that mathematics should be taught in the way that he likes the most is silly, at best. Most people will be able to pass through life with a rudimentary, at best, understanding of mathematics. Most jobs in this world do not require 90% of the theorems and principles that people are forced to learn through high school. I agree with the essay 100% on that point.

      The key to math education, though, is not memorizing these principles, but rather learning how to solve problems. If someone can logically plan their way through a calculus problem, almost anything that they have to figure out at their job would be well within reason.

      I never have understood the concept of math as an art, yet I enjoy math. I enjoy solving problems, enough so that I earned my BS in Mathematics, but this guy takes it to a whole new level. If not even all mathematicians think like he does, why does he expect that the general population will?

      --
      But then I realized the cable was blue, so I only gave it one star. I hate blue.
    5. Re:Eh. by gbarules2999 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Is it the students who are incapable, or are they merely inexperienced?

      Some people just don't get math, just like some people just don't get music or science or English. Around here, the math one is probably the largest.

      You can ask any teacher. Some students just have a hard limit on their abilities. It's hard to manage these.

      I'd also like to state that we have some pretty damn good teachers in our district, who approach math more like the essay stated. Lots of exploration and discovery. For a lot of students it just doesn't work, whether they're told outright (which the math teachers are inevitably forced to do on a one on one basis) or asked to discover the relationships themselves.

    6. Re:Eh. by gbarules2999 · · Score: 1

      what we are teaching as "math" in school is totally useless and should be scrapped completely, because it's not even close to what math is.

      Manipulating numbers is a valid skill that a lot of people need to be taught. Not "explored" or "created like art." Let's call it Numbers class if "math" doesn't work.

      It'd be nice to have the option of what the author's saying, but the revolutionist ideas are faulty at best. And most districts don't have the funds to implement such a program anyway.

    7. Re:Eh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are right it is beyond the ability of most high school students because they have never had to do it. You see the same problems in the sciences. You have to memorize things instead of understanding it. When I graduated high school way back when the dinosaurs roamed the earth, math and science was boring because it was just a collection of facts. The only thing worse was every other subject. It wasn't until college that I started to actually do real science and it was fun and why I ended up with a ph.d in physics.
      I am willing to bet that the majority of students would learn mathematics if they had that type of education starting with 1st grade. Kids don't learn because they are told to but because they want to for what ever reason. And yes I still consider high schoolers kids.

    8. Re:Eh. by chris_eineke · · Score: 2, Insightful

      90% of the student population isn't interested in math because it's taught in the way and by the people he talks about in his text.

      *insert snide comment about reading comprehension here*

      --
      "All you have to do is be fragile and grateful. So stay the underdog." Chuck Palahniuk, Choke
    9. Re:Eh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suspect that's exactly his point. As math is currently taught, it doesn't capture the interests of students.

    10. Re:Eh. by egcagrac0 · · Score: 1

      Some people just don't get math, just like some people just don't get music or science or English. Around here, the math one is probably the largest. You can ask any teacher. Some students just have a hard limit on their abilities. It's hard to manage these.

      Agreed; some students are mentally incapable of dealing with advanced concepts. This is not the overwhelming majority of the populace.

      That's OK, of course - the world needs ditch diggers, too. We can't all be above average.

      So, if as you say, most students can't handle math, why try to teach it at all? It's a hopeless endeavour, not unlike teaching pigs to sing.

    11. Re:Eh. by gbarules2999 · · Score: 1

      Just offer different levels of difficulty in classes, if possible. Give the classes the essay discusses to those who can do something like that, but also keep in mind classes for some of the less talented students. Honor or Challenge level classes work well, but open those up even more.

      That's why I'm "Eh." about the essay - it's not applicable to everyone, and scrapping it all won't quite work right.

    12. Re:Eh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True. But kids should probably at least know what an equation is if they are going to be solving them, or know what area of a shape is if they are going to be finding it.

      An equation is a statement that two quantities are the same. Area of a shape is the amount of space it contains. Kids don't know these things though.

    13. Re:Eh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think you read the essay.

    14. Re:Eh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, actually what is taught in schools is the useful part of math. It's basically the same debate as Computer Science vs. using a computer. Schools teach to use math to solve problems that arise in at least some professions.

    15. Re:Eh. by reg106 · · Score: 1

      As a freshman I took an honors calculus course with a professor that I was sure was absolutely insane. Her problems were never something we could learn to do by applying an algorithm or computation from lecture or the book, but each one required cooking up some unique insight. "How was I supposed to know that!?!" I and many of my peers railed against her failure to "teach," but many years later I realize that she was trying to introduce us, however unwilling we were, to the substance of mathematics. I learned quite a bit from the course, though I didn't appreciate it until several years later.

      Most undergraduate mathematics courses focus on computation. The mystery is figuring out which algorithm to apply, or how to transform the problem into a standard form to apply an algorithm. This provide good practice in problem solving (or in the worst case, practice in following really sophisticated directions). The concept of math as art (the essence of mathematics that Lockhardt writes about) only really shows up in the graduate curriculum, although it is foreshadowed in senior level classes like "advanced calculus." (Which is not really about advanced calculus, but really lays solid foundations on which to build calculus.) At the graduate level, all the problems start to look a lot more like puzzles, with no systematic way to approach them. The questions regard the truth of a given statement rather than the particular result of a calculation. Answering the question often requires the creation of an ad hoc tool.

      Developing the creativity to successfully approach these unstructured problem is a useful mental skill, and like problem solving, I believe it is portable to other fields. But I think it is much more difficult to teach than the author lets on. The students must be willing to bang their heads against the wall until useful ideas pop out in order to make progress. Students are often unwilling to do this when they know that someone somewhere already knows the answer. And the internet makes it easy to just look up the answer, possibly replacing a self-directed deep understanding with a superficial one. The reason to work through these types of problems is because you inevitably hit problems for which you can't find the answer, and you have to reason it out on your own. Without practice, you're sunk.

      (This message is not so much a direct response to you, as thoughts evoked by your "math as art" comment. Perhaps your program did a great job of motivating fundamentals the whole way through. I dunno...)

    16. Re:Eh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I second that he missed the point.

      Another part about it that he missed is this: How would the poster have any idea if people did have the ability or did like doing that? We aren't given the chance to find out in our current system.

    17. Re:Eh. by LihTox · · Score: 1

      He argues that a lot of what is taught in school ISN'T useful to most people, something that students have been catching on to for decades. It shouldn't take TWELVE YEARS to cover the useful part of math. My favorite part of the article was when he described trigonometry as being two weeks of material spread out over a semester; I teach college physics and this is very true. The trigonometry we use in mechanics problems can easily be explained in one class, even to people who have never seen it before.

      Arithmetic: useful (though what we really need is the ability to estimate calculations in our head; precise results of large problems can be left to a calculator). Geometric formulas (areas and volumes): useful. Basic trig: useful. But algebra in everyday life? Who solves quadratic equations in everyday life?

      And the worst part is that when an adult comes to a point where he needs to use some higher mathematics, he often can't do it because he's developed a block after spending 12 years doing drudgery mislabelled as mathematics. Maybe if we vastly reduced the required mathematics curriculum, then people would have more of an open mind about mathematics, and find it much easier to learn as adults once they're in a situation where they really need it. Come to think of it, the same is probably true of most standard subjects: would more people enjoy Shakespeare if they weren't forced to read his plays in high school under threat of failure?

    18. Re:Eh. by Lost+Engineer · · Score: 1

      Most jobs in this world do not require 90% of the theorems and principles that people are forced to learn through high school.

      Herein lies the problem: certainly 90% of high school students don't need to learn those theorems in high school but our future math grad students certainly do. Some people would argue it would be a shame to segregate those students at such an early level, but it seems that successful schools abroad are already doing this. To some extent this happens in good schools in the US via the AP Calculus program.

      Actually my one beef with the US AP Calc program is that colleges accept the credits and dump freshmen into something like Differential Equations. I know on some level that is supposed to a be a crucible, but it would not have killed me to have some sort of transition between "ok I can solve calculus problems" to "I can solve problems where understanding of calculus is necessary and taken for granted."

    19. Re:Eh. by ChaosDiscord · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You overlooked the absolute core of his argument: a lot of high school students think they don't like math because they've been presented with a pale shadow of math for the previous eight years. Of course a high school student couldn't handle what he's describing; all of their previous schooling has emphasized rote memorization, blind pattern matching, and robotic application of rules. He thinks we need to rethink things all the way back to first grade.

      By odd coincidence, I had an english literature teacher in high school who taught english the same way math is frequently taught. You read the book, and during class he lectured on the details of the story, the author's background, and the context of the world in which the story was written. While this might sound interesting, it was presented as a serious facts. Indeed, a few days before a test, he helpfully gave a study session that amounted to listing 100 or so facts from the book and his lectures. You memorized them, then regurgitated 20 or so back on the multiple choice test. It was mindless. It was admittedly very easy, at least if you could memorize a list of 100 or so facts, but it did crap all for my appreciation for literature in the english language. (At the time I liked his class. I found it trivially easy. But looking back on it in hindsight, especially after reading that essay, what a massive waste of time. What a terrible teacher.)

      In english class in high school you can ask students to read a work, then write an essay on the themes. In the process they will have to learn to actually pay attention to what they're reading, to consider it on a level beyond a simple telling of events. Maybe the student will hate reading, writing, or both, but the overwhelming majority can manage to write that essay. The original author argues that the same model can work for mathematics and that the idea that it will be too hard for many students is a false one created a system that already fails.

  14. It's a problem by SEWilco · · Score: 1

    K-12 'education'

    Solve for education.

    1. Re:It's a problem by WhiteHorse-The+Origi · · Score: 1

      Find x: 25=3-x -Here it is!

  15. Hmm by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 4, Funny

    I implore you to read his essay with every atom of my being.

    Well, OK, seeing as I can use *your* atoms.

    1. Re:Hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You beat me to it. May I use the atoms when you're finished reading, please?

  16. US K-12 MATH = Real world fail. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Just the other day, I was watching "Who wants to be a Millionare?" And a 24 year long high school teacher didn't know what the sign for factorial means. Choices where along the lines of : ! & %

    1. Re:US K-12 MATH = Real world fail. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When I was in the sixth grade (1980), my teacher didn't know that '/' could be used for division when he asked the class "what can you use '/' for?"

      He told me I was wrong.

    2. Re:US K-12 MATH = Real world fail. by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      And a 24 year long high school teacher didn't know what the sign for factorial means. Choices where along the lines of : ! & %

      <pedantic>
      Well, from those choices, I would know that "!" was probably intended, but that's as much skill at dealing with improperly-posed questions as anything else.

      In fact, though, none of the options are correct as you have related the question: what the sign for factorial means is "factorial", just as a stop sign (or "sign for stop") means "stop", not "red octagon with a white border".
      </pedantic>

    3. Re:US K-12 MATH = Real world fail. by Kratisto · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure which is more concerning: That anyone still watches "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire," or that anyone is still surprised by the abject stupidity therein.

      --
      Conscience is the inner voice which warns us that someone may be looking.
    4. Re:US K-12 MATH = Real world fail. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you don't seem to know what the word means means.

      The symbol for factorial is !.

      ! (the symbol for factorial) means the product of the series of integers all integers from 1 to the integer which precedes the factorial symbol.

      See the difference?

    5. Re:US K-12 MATH = Real world fail. by Ogive17 · · Score: 1

      Simple questions get much harder when you're on national tv, sitting across a desk from a celebrity, with bright lights and cameras in your face. I know because my gf was on the Japanese version about a decade ago. The question she ended up missing was something she knew, but for some reason she just couldn't come up with the answer will sitting in the chair.

      Maybe he knew it, maybe he didn't... but I wouldn't use 'Who Wants to be a Millionaire' as an indicator. When I first read your post, I wasn't sure what you were talking about either and it even took about 5 seconds after seeing the symbols to register what the answer was.

      --
      "Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
    6. Re:US K-12 MATH = Real world fail. by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      The participants in such shows are carefully selected to be dumber than the audience. Takes some doing, as they also have to qualify as mentally competent.

      BTW "fail" is a verb.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    7. Re:US K-12 MATH = Real world fail. by geobeck · · Score: 1

      When I took my teacher training (around 1990), a course called "Contemporary Math" was introduced as compulsory for all Education students. Why?

      The year before, an elementary school teacher in that city (who was 'educated' at my university) was teaching division to her students. As a response to some number divided by zero, one student wrote [phi], the symbol for an empty set. The teacher informed the student that she didn't need to put a stroke through the zero, and the answer was simply zero. The student unsuccessfully argued with the teacher, then went home and told her parents - who were both mathematicians.

      The pair of them had a few choice words for the faculty that produced a math teacher who didn't understand fundamental math concepts. The result was Contemporary Math.

      The year after, I took a course called "Grammar for Teachers". The marking scheme for that course showed the appallingly low expectations the faculty had of the English skills of the students. Fully half the mark was based on the difference between pre-test and post-test scores. Fortunately, that half of the mark was waived for a couple of us who didn't "get the memo" and scored over 95% on the pre-test.

      --
      Find environmentally and socially responsible products on http://buy-right.net
  17. Oh give it a rest by eln · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Specialists in every field complain that educators get their field wrong or don't stir the passions of kids for their field as much as they ought to. What they fail to understand is that they're coming at the whole problem from the perspective of someone who is obviously gifted at and highly passionate about the field. They don't seem to get that most people don't pick up their field as easily as they do, and don't care enough to put in the effort it would take to get even half as good at it as the specialist.

    Instructors of just about every field at any level of compulsory education (K-12) have to battle against entrenched biases against their fields, and against education in general, that have been fostered for years before the student ever gets in their classroom. Further, their task is to teach the curriculum provided. If they inspire their kids to love the field, that's great, but if they spend so much time inspiring the kids that they don't have enough time to teach the kids what they need to pass the state-required tests, they're still going to lose their jobs.

    Teaching math, science, or anything else is HARD. Teaching it to people who don't care and don't want to be there is even harder. Teaching kids to love the field when the only metric used to judge your performance is pass rates on a standardized test is harder still. It's all well and good for professional mathematicians to bitch and moan about the state of education, but until they're ready to step in with some realistic and implementable ideas that don't presuppose that all kids have some inherent interest in these things that just needs to be tapped into, it's not helpful in the least.

    1. Re:Oh give it a rest by bgalehouse · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Specialists in every field complain that educators get their field wrong or don't stir the passions of kids for their field as much as they ought to. What they fail to understand is that they're coming at the whole problem from the perspective of someone who is obviously gifted at and highly passionate about the field. They don't seem to get that most people don't pick up their field as easily as they do, and don't care enough to put in the effort it would take to get even half as good at it as the specialist.

      Do musicians complain that the typical high school band teachers don't understand the basics of music? This is a specific example from the TFA and it is very well chosen. People don't expect high school band teacher to world class musicians. They do however expect high school band teacher to have a feel for what music is. They expect high school band teacher to know the difference between in tune and out of tune. They expect high school band teachers to drill notation and teach counting different times, but the also expect to be connecting these things to actual music at every step of the way.

      We expect this of high school band teacher because most people know what music is supposed to sound like. Most people have enough sense for how it actually works to recognize somebody who can't play, or who cannot teach how to play.

      Teaching math, science, or anything else is HARD. Teaching it to people who don't care and don't want to be there is even harder. Teaching kids to love the field when the only metric used to judge your performance is pass rates on a standardized test is harder still. It's all well and good for professional mathematicians to bitch and moan about the state of education, but until they're ready to step in with some realistic and implementable ideas that don't presuppose that all kids have some inherent interest in these things that just needs to be tapped into, it's not helpful in the least.

      If you tried to teach a music class based on transcribing notation and chord theory, rather than listening and/or playing you'd find it hard also. Teaching kids to love music using a such a curriculum wouldn't just be hard, it would border on the absurd. Even if a few people did enjoy the raw mindless diligence to do such a thing out of context, there is no particular reason to believe that this would produce great musicians.

      I'd like to add that science education in the US seems to me to be much closer to math education than music education. I remember learning to play lip service to the scientific method, but I don't remember ever being asked to sit down with some lab equipment and figure out what some relationship is. If you are given the equation, and given the experiment to "test" some particular aspect of the equation, you've removed the science, you've removed what is important.

    2. Re:Oh give it a rest by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      The problem is they have math majors teaching English, English majors teaching science, and horticulture majors teaching physics.

      The bigger problem is the teachers aren't paid well enough to attract good ones.

    3. Re:Oh give it a rest by JumpDrive · · Score: 1

      I would at least hope that they could reach a middle ground.
      In the past the state of Texas chose Physics text books without anyone having a physics background. The same for the curriculum. I saw some of the original tests which were going to be used for standardized performance examinations and the questions appeared to come from electrician tests. A number of graduate students were asked to peruse the examination, I think basically all of us sat there and looked over the exam for about 5 minutes and said WTF. We then thought that, well we hadn't read through it enough and started looking for anything about electro-magnetic fields. We found one question. It seemed obvious to us that there intention was to turn the second semester of Physics into a vocational school for electricians.
      I have since met a number of graduates from high school here and somewhere this apparently got turned back around. But it really kind of worried me that they were even considering this.

    4. Re:Oh give it a rest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Teaching it to people who don't care and don't want to be there is even harder.

      Have you ever spent any time around young children? I mean two, three and four year olds? Children at that age love to learn. They continually experiment and try new things. Human children are born knowing almost nothing. About the only thing a human baby knows is how to suck. A human baby is born to learn. It is what makes us human.

      So what are we doing so wrong in our schools that completely and utterly destroys this passion for learning?

    5. Re:Oh give it a rest by gbarules2999 · · Score: 1

      Music isn't a required subject, and doesn't apply. If a student doesn't "get" music, they can drop it and take something else that they do get, like drawing or woods. Math is not the same; you need to know how to manipulate numbers at least somewhat.

      Besides you don't "create" anything in band class. You play the music the band instructor selects. This is definitely something more musicians, some who can create music without even trying, would object to.

    6. Re:Oh give it a rest by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      It's actually not that hard. I have a friend who is working teaching people who never learned anything in school. As in, they some how managed to graduate without ever knowing how to subtract. That alone indicates that something is wrong with the educational system, but it's besides the point.

      He takes these people, the dumbest of the dumb, and he teaches them all the math they need to know to pass the asvab, which includes geometry and algebra, and he does it in 8-12 weeks. This is enough to pass the California exit exam (and more), by the way.

      Now, it's true these guys are adults, and they are getting tutored in small groups, and my friend doesn't have to deal with many problems of the classroom, BUT: if it is possible to condense 12 years of math into four months, and teachers are still having trouble teaching students, then something is clearly wrong with the schooling system.

      And actually no one is denying that. It's obvious that there are problems, everyone can see it. But what is the solution? That is the hard part. How do you make schools better? This guy doesn't really have an answer either, he just names a bunch of things that are wrong. Great. Add your complaints to the list. There must be a mile long list of problems with schools, so adding a few more can't hurt. Wake me up when he gets an answer.

      Oh, and his nightmare scenario at the beginning, the one about music? That situation pretty much described my experience learning music theory. So it's not just math......

      --
      Qxe4
    7. Re:Oh give it a rest by SlashBugs · · Score: 1

      "So what are we doing so wrong in our schools that completely and utterly destroys this passion for learning?"
      Allowing the kids to hit puberty. I know, I'm appalled too.

    8. Re:Oh give it a rest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually it's not HARD it's DIFFICULT.

    9. Re:Oh give it a rest by innocent_white_lamb · · Score: 1

      Music isn't a required subject, and doesn't apply. If a student doesn't "get" music, they can drop it and take something else that they do get, like drawing or woods. Math is not the same; you need to know how to manipulate numbers at least somewhat.
       
      That depends on where (and when) you went to school. I went to school in the 60's and 70's, music was a required class, and since I have no musical or artistic ability (I'm not "creative" in that way, what I can do is write words) the music class mostly taught me to hate it.

      --
      If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
    10. Re:Oh give it a rest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You missed much of the point: there are no standardized tests for music!

    11. Re:Oh give it a rest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd like to add that science education in the US seems to me to be much closer to math education than music education. I remember learning to play lip service to the scientific method, but I don't remember ever being asked to sit down with some lab equipment and figure out what some relationship is. If you are given the equation, and given the experiment to "test" some particular aspect of the equation, you've removed the science, you've removed what is important.

      Amen. Science is the art of discovery. Science class is about the achievements of scientists and following their recipes.

    12. Re:Oh give it a rest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree completely. Public elementary school is meant to teach competency and basic familiarity with a broad range of topics. People who have a natural affinity toward a particular discipline will hopefully not be bored by the stuff that is meant to make literate citizens. For instance, in history class do we spend a lot of time learning how to be a historian, research, uncover primary sources, cross-reference, etc.? No, because we know most kids won't be historians and that that's what college is for anyways. We need to teach who assassinated President Garfield. Because reasonable, educated adults should simply know some things.

    13. Re:Oh give it a rest by ChaosDiscord · · Score: 1

      Original author: The current curriculum sucks and standardized testing sucks. We should replace them with something better.

      You: But we need to teach the curriculum, and we need to pass the standardized tests!

      That's not a counter argument. That's a sad affirmation of what he's saying.

      He has realistic and implementable ideas. While he paints in broad strokes, that's an appropriate level for an essay of that length. In short: teach math like you teach english, or art. Sure, teach some basics, but rote memorization is usually counterproductive. Instead hand the child some tools and an unsolved problem and ask them to solve it. An art teacher puts a chair at the front of the class and asks the kids to draw it. Yeah, they'll suck, but they'll learn. When he provides suggestions for improvements, it's grounded in their own experimentation. An english teacher says, "Read this book, then write an essay on the themes." The english teacher (hopefully) doesn't just say, "The themes of this this chapter are X, Y, and Z," but instead asks the class, "What are the themes? You think X? Okay, what in the chapter says X to you? Sure, that makes sense. What about when the main character did A? Did that support the theme X?" Ask the children to think and reason, not just apply cryptic rules in a sad implementation of the Chinese Room.

    14. Re:Oh give it a rest by sjames · · Score: 1

      If you are given the equation, and given the experiment to "test" some particular aspect of the equation, you've removed the science, you've removed what is important.

      I was fortunate enough to have an excellent chemistry teacher. After 2 quarters of theory with some labs, the 3rd quarter was a series of qualitative analysis labs. He allocated enough time to complete each analysis, but not enough to complete it following the rote instructions in the book. He would happily discuss any alternate procedures we cared to discuss with him. Simply, IF you made an effort to understand what each step did and why, and you understood the material from the first 2 quarters, then you could devise a more efficient procedure.

  18. An allegedly true story from a professor by thirty-seven · · Score: 4, Interesting

    While I was in university, a computer science professor in the faculty of mathematics told me (and the rest of the class) a cute and funny story about what happens "when the children of math professors get together". He and a colleague, who each had a young daughter at that time, were walking together in a park with their daughters. The children were old enough to have picked up some math-related words and phrases from their fathers, but young enough to have no idea what they really meant - six or seven years old, maybe? The daughters went off to play and their fathers overheard them arguing about who had seen the most flowers in the park.

    My professor's daughter said, "I saw five flowers!"

    "And I saw... six!", the other girl replied.

    Not to be outdone, my professor's daughter said, "I saw a million flowers."

    "Oh yeah? I saw infinity flowers."

    This, according to my professor, caused his daughter to pause - she had never heard of "infinity" before. How could she top "infinity flowers", especially since she didn't know what it meant?

    But after thinking for a few seconds, she said, "Well, I saw all the flowers."

    --

    Atheism is a religion to the same extent that not collecting stamps is a hobby.

    1. Re:An allegedly true story from a professor by superwiz · · Score: 1

      That's a amazingly good way to demonstrate what's infinity to new students. I like it so much I think I am going to steal it.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    2. Re:An allegedly true story from a professor by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Please don't, it's wrong.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:An allegedly true story from a professor by superwiz · · Score: 1

      It's not necessarily wrong. The first girls assertion was about set A being infinite. The second girl's assertion was that set B contained all objects satisfying a certain property. B can contain A. For example, B could be equal to A.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    4. Re:An allegedly true story from a professor by superwiz · · Score: 1

      But more importantly, the idea that "no matter how far you, you still have more to go" is sometimes a turn off as too abstract. This story makes it more concrete. AND it manages to demonstrate that an infinity can be contained in some set. It's quite a good example, once you parse it.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
  19. US School System compared to Europes School System by 0x000000 · · Score: 5, Informative

    I myself have gone through the US school system starting at grade 7 (lived in Switzerland and The Netherlands before then), I am currently in uni for a software engineering degree. While I have read only part of the article (the blog post) I wanted to post my experience compared to that of my cousin who went through school in The Netherlands.

    Math at the schools I went to was catered to the lowest common denominator, the slowest person in the class, the person who would just not get it got the most attention and the rest of the class was stuck at that level until that person tagged along and finally got moving. Whereas in Europe and other places they place those students in various levels of math dependent on their skill level so that those that don't need the extra time are able to get to the higher level maths faster. This creates a gap between the math that is considered required at age 18 in the US and The Netherlands. My cousin was going for a degree in hotel management and food preparation (chef). He at the age of 18 had a better understanding of math, and had more knowledge of high level math (Linear Algebra, Calculus and others) than I did when I graduated High School, and the classes he were in were considered the slower less demanding classes since it was not as much of a requirement for the degree he was going to be pursuing.

    This is the same with a lot of the classes though, history, english, and science classes. Especially for English, you don't get to think for yourself anymore, you have to follow exactly what the teacher told you. If the teacher says this is important for this reason, and you attempt to argue it differently in a paper you fail, everyone coming out of high school has been passed through a cookie cutter, there is no innovation left, there is no real thinking for oneself anymore.

    It is sad, and the state the US educational system is currently in will not allow it to compete in the global market, it will not allow it to be innovate and provide new ideas, but what it will provide is people who are like sheep and are more than willing to follow the crowd and just do it because everyone does. These people will be easy to govern and control since they won't ask questions and least of all will they rebel and fight for their beliefs. In other words, the US education system as it currently stands is making zombies.

    --
    cat /dev/null > .signature
  20. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by DriedClexler · · Score: 5, Informative

    For instance the ancient mayans used shapes for numbers, instead of 1, 2, 3

    Psst! The numerals "1", "2", and "3" are shapes too!

    F***in' indocentrists...

    --
    Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
  21. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by CRCulver · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The United States is being outclassed in math and science education by a host of other nations. Those nations, for the most part, teach the subject in an exceedingly traditional format. Asia, for example, is still really keen on rote learning. The failure of American pupils is probably not due to the way the subject is taught, but rather because they don't feel the pressure to excel like students in other cultures.

  22. Meanwhile, the English teachers lament... by scalpod · · Score: 0

    ...that Roget ever compiled his damned, accursed, infernal, confounded thesaurus!

    --
    If "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and "it was beauty that killed the beast" then "please stop staring at me".
  23. You can convince me by idontgno · · Score: 4, Insightful

    that math is better taught as an art than as a pragmatic problem-solving toolset when you can convince me that Pablo Picasso should have been forced to paint the Golden Gate bridge.

    Society needs math as a tool in far greater quantity than math as an art. Socially-funded education serves the greater need of society. QED.

    I survived public school mathematics. I still appreciate the beauty of patterns, especially the relatedness of art, music, and math. (Godel, Escher, and Bach really resonated for me. But that didn't make me a mathematical artist, any more than a musical composer or a woodblock printer.)

    Lockhart's essay is an interesting read, really, but on some level it boils down to "Those unworthy schlubs treating Mathematics as a tool don't deserve it. It belongs to the artists, the dreamers, the purists!"

    It's a pretty common arrogation in the math culture, it seems. I dont' recall sculptors ever being pissed at concrete workers or ironworkers. And I've never heard of any artist painter getting mad at the other kind of painter for not employing good artistic composition principle while painting the side of the barn.

    Seriously. Math is both an art and a tool. The best artists find their art by themselves; they're not turned out by artist factories. School mathematics is to turn out the mathematical equivalent of bridge painters and ironworkers, because society needs those more (in greater quantity).

    --
    Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    1. Re:You can convince me by bgalehouse · · Score: 1

      So if music transcription and chord theory had some practical everyday purpose, would we be justified in making students learn to do these things without even trying to show them how to play?

      Engineers use computer models. Accountants use spreadsheets. How many other professions even come close to using math?

      This wasn't always the case. I hear of today's law students avoiding tax class because the math is difficult. Abraham Lincoln carried a copy of Euclid's Elements in his saddle bags because he thought reading it improved his ability to argue and demonstrate as a lawyer.

      Today more than ever before, the important part of mathematics in today's world is the ideas and the ability to connect the ideas. Not the ability to perform, say, those arithmetic computations which computers do so many millions of times faster. Now, a certain amount of practicing such things does contribute to the study of mathematical ideas, but if every question you study is better answered with a calculator then that is all you are training to be, and the calculator will always be better than you.

    2. Re:You can convince me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have missed the point. The problem solving toolkit that is mathematics isn't tied to all of the notions taught in school. To continue with the idea of painting, The current teaching of mathematics would be like teaching a student that a brush goes into the paint and then up once, down once, and then back into the paint. Then forcing the student to do that several thousand times. The student doesn't really understand what he is doing, why he is doing it or why its important that he does it in this particular way. What does the student do if he has to paint something above him? Unfortunately he hasn't drilled on that and will not be able to solve the problem.

      The art is the tool. There is no separation, thinking there is is the problem. For example a bridge painter is restricted to only using his painting skills for work, he can paint for pleasure using the same techniques. The only difference is the outcome.

    3. Re:You can convince me by jweller · · Score: 1

      IMHO the purpose of math in public schools is to make sure that upon release into the real world, students can do things like balance their checkbook, calculate a tip or a discount without a calculator, make change, and understand the concept of compounding interest. Sadly, it appears that they are failing miserably at that simple task.

    4. Re:You can convince me by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

      Lockhart's essay is an interesting read, really, but on some level it boils down to "Those unworthy schlubs treating Mathematics as a tool don't deserve it. It belongs to the artists, the dreamers, the purists!"

      Basically. While mathematics can indeed be an art form, a certain amount of slogging through the basics is required of anyone who wishes to learn it. Euclid reputedly said that there was no Royal Road to geometry(mathematics), and that is as true today as it was in Euclid's time. Mathematics requires effort.

      I remember the algebra problems of secondary school.

      Simplify: (x+2x^2+3)(x^3+2(x+1)^2+2)+3x^2 +2x+1

      I did sums like this and dozens like it. Hundreds, and that's just in algebra. Doing those sums over and over, making mistakes, finding patterns all added to my knowledge and abilities in manipulating symbols which I use to this day. Yes it was slog work. Yes it was boring. Yes it was "pointless". But I did it and I'm better at algebra for it. The same is true for most things in mathematics, right down all the way to basic arithmetic(times tables anyone?) and all the way up to graduate school(Prove any distribution is the limit of a sequence of functions!).

      It's true, mathematics can be made easier to learn though more engaging, and more systematic presentations. But you cannot completely exorcise exercises from the curriculum, no mater how pointless students think they are. Learning anything is not something that can be done easily, for anyone. It takes effort. I am reminded of Mr. Miagi's "Wax on, wax off", itself a variation of the thousands of repetitive and "pointless" motions that young martial arts students must perform over and over before they can proceed to "real" training.

      You really do have to get the basics right before you move on to the advanced techniques. This doesn't mean that learning the basics can't be interesting, but it does mean that you will have to learn them!

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    5. Re:You can convince me by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "It's a pretty common arrogation in the math culture"
      yes, yes it is.
      Math is a tool.
      You sue it to get answers. It's cool that its a tool used to expand itself, but it's still a tool.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    6. Re:You can convince me by bnenning · · Score: 1

      IMHO the purpose of math in public schools is to make sure that upon release into the real world, students can do things like balance their checkbook, calculate a tip or a discount without a calculator, make change, and understand the concept of compounding interest.

      Which doesn't require anything beyond basic arithmetic, with maybe a bit of Algebra I for compound interest exponentials. If that were really the goal, we'd replace mandatory trigonometry with personal finance, with lesson plans such as "credit cards are not free money" and "lottery tickets are a poor investment". (Although since lottery proceeds often fund schools, getting that last one in could be contentious).

      --
      How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
    7. Re:You can convince me by nine-times · · Score: 1

      I dont' recall sculptors ever being pissed at concrete workers or ironworkers.

      Yeah, but it's also worth recognizing that your average concrete worker might not be the best person to teach a sculpture class.

    8. Re:You can convince me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So if music transcription and chord theory had some practical everyday purpose, would we be justified in making students learn to do these things without even trying to show them how to play?

      Germany seems to think so. We had mandatory music classes that consisted of singing and music theory. And the singing had nothing to do with art but was more for recreation... or something. I'm not really sure what the purpose of the singing was.

    9. Re:You can convince me by Mao · · Score: 1

      Seriously. Math is both an art and a tool. The best artists find their art by themselves.

      Absolutely. It is an art and a tool in not so different a way from how a language is an art and a tool.

      And like learning a foreign language, learning Mathematics is not a straight path. We would love to build up a sense of mathematics from first principles in a perfect, coherent way, but that is no more realistic than learning French by studying the etymology of every word from the get-go. No, you learn French by listening to it, by speaking it, by making mistakes, without necessarily knowing how it evolved. Later, once you are more fluent in it, you begin to read more sophisticated literature, you begin to be interested in the development of the language, and then you say, "Ah... so that's how things come to be."

      A student may fully appreciate "the transcendental nature of the trigonometric functions", but what good would that do if he cannot bother to memorize (yes, MEMORIZE) the double angle formulas. How would he understand later on a real life application of Calculus, where it is taken for granted that he is fluent in the language of trigonometry.

      It's funny that Lockhart uses the practice of visual arts as a metaphor. Fact is, there is a lot of dry, uninteresting stuff that went into the training of an artist. The myth that Da Vinci started out painting eggs probably isn't too far from the truth. You think Picasso painted things in the style of Guernica when he first started? Doing the dry non-interesting stuff allowed Picasso to express his artistic vision with technical facility. So what if he had the "vision" of Guernica, if he can't even handle paint competently?

      From my own experience as a pure mathematician, I can tell you that my own learning curve is far from linear. When one learns topology, one has to learn all the formal definitions of open sets, compactness, and so on. Of course, one tries to motivate these definitions with intuitive notions, but ultimately, a lot of my appreciation of "the language of topology" is obtained from seeing how it is applied. One can talk about donuts and coffee cups all they want at the beginning, but that doesn't even begin to capture the beauty of it (Try talking about cups and donuts in the context of p-adic topology on a p-adic field). It's a back and forth process. Most often the person coming up with the definitions isn't him/herself fully aware of the full implications. But that's the beauty of it.

    10. Re:You can convince me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I profoundly thank you for introducing me to the word 'arrogation'.

    11. Re:You can convince me by DrEasy · · Score: 1

      But is school a place for training or for education? If math is taught as a tool then the purpose is to train. I believe Lockhard is arguing that school is a place to awaken curiosity and interest, and therefore it is the art of maths that needs to be taught. I sit in the middle, I think the art part helps to capture the interest, so that they can suffer through the repetitive training part. You start a lecture by bringing up an interesting problem, then you provide the tool to solve the given problem as well as many other ones.

      --
      "In our tactical decisions, we are operating contrary to our strategic interest."
    12. Re:You can convince me by ChaosDiscord · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Part of his argument is that by focusing on "math as tool" via "math as rote memorization", you fail even at that. Math at higher levels becomes cryptic symbols that you manipulate according to cryptic rules to make your teacher happy. And a few years out of school you promptly forget the whole thing. If they forget most of it, and for the overwhelming majority it never hurts them to have forgotten it, what was the point in having "taught" it in the first place? He argues that it's such a waste of time that we might simply drop some math courses entirely and we would be better off. (Indeed, I suspect that if you replace your average American's high school senior math courses with Spanish that society on the whole would benefit. They're more likely to make use of the Spanish.)

      The author believes that his proposal will lead to more students discovering that they actually like math, and more students as a whole actually retaining what they learned. While they might learn less, they'll actually retain more in the long run, and be better armed to figure out things for themselves.

    13. Re:You can convince me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think he is saying that math is only for the elite, but just the opposite. He makes several arguments against using cumbersome formal terminology and symbols.

  24. As an old codger.... by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

    ...I know I'm supposed to say "Things ain't like they used to be!" but the fact is, they never were. K12 in the fifties and sixties tried hard to convince me that I was to hate math and science and treated me as wierdo when I didn't. Instead I learned to despise classroom education, which did me incalculable harm at university.

    Basically, public education sucks.

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    1. Re:As an old codger.... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      It certainly isn't how it used to be on this side of the pond. You used to take an exam at 11 here, and go to either a grammar school or a comprehensive depending on your result. Within these, it you would typically have different sets for each subject, so the best students were in one class and the worst in the other (quite often the same child would be in the top set for some and the bottom for others).

      In the '80s, this system was dismantled because it was 'elitist'. The result is that you now have the complete ability range of children in the same class. The teacher has to try pitch the lessons at a level where they are applicable to every student. I was lucky in that my parents sent me to a public[1] school which still did this; you passed an entrance exam to get in and then were divided into sets based on ability for most subjects. Different sets were taught in different ways, and at different speeds. I hated the subjects which weren't split in this way; you were always in with a bunch of people who got everything faster than you so you had to struggle to keep up, or with a group of people who were so slow you were bored (or both). Even in the classes with different ability sets, you got this to a certain degree, but not to anything like the same level.

      [1] Note to Americans: Historically, in Britain, there were private schools that were run by individuals or companies to make a profit, and public schools which were run as charities (often Church-financed, sometimes funded by donations from industrialists). The government-funded schools were introduced a few hundred years later, and are referred to as state schools.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    2. Re:As an old codger.... by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      We had "tracks" here too. Didn't work.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    3. Re:As an old codger.... by smallfries · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry but that is guff. I'm quite a bit younger than you are (based on your other posts) but in my time in a state comprehensive classes in maths, science and foreign languages were all streamed into sets based on ability.

      --
      Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php
  25. There's lots to disagree with... by twistedcubic · · Score: 1

    From his critique of Algebra II:

    Students will learn to rewrite quadratic forms in a variety of standard formats for no reason whatsoever.

    I guess he's exaggerating, since he must be aware of the deep connection between algebra and geometry which is realized via manipulating equations. And this provides lots of approaches for a good teacher. I dunno, he just comes off as a garden-variety teacher with strong opinions.

    1. Re:There's lots to disagree with... by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      > I guess he's exaggerating, since he must be aware of the deep connection between algebra
      > and geometry which is realized via manipulating equations.

      My high school algegra teachers were not aware of that connection (my geometry teacher was. She was also about the best teacher there.)

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    2. Re:There's lots to disagree with... by Ben1220 · · Score: 1

      so you're teachers couldn't instinctively tell you what (x-3)(x+2) would look like? Yikes maybe public education in USA really is as bad as people are saying...

  26. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 0

    While I like our system, I think there are two things that need to happen in the US.

    • Create two levels of high school degrees. One being a 10th grade level and the second being a 12th grade level for those intending to pursue further education.
    • Give more leeway to teachers to hold students back. Right now, too many kids who haven't figured it out are just failed up to the next grade. This causes the problems you speak of with slow students holding down the rest of the class. On top of that, I think there's a cumulative effect as those slower kids keep dragging down classes more and more as they progress through grades yet don't ever quite figure out the content matter. Secondly, I think the peer pressure of seeing your classmates move on it is a huge impetus to get a kid to get caught up.
    --
    I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
  27. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by Lord+Ender · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You must have attended a very very small school. Most US schools have different courses based on skill level. Your conclusions about the US school system are therefore wrong. They are merely conclusions about very small schools.

    --
    A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
  28. Vulcans are doing it right by jrowlingson · · Score: 1

    The depiction of math education in Star Trek was great - you know, the scene where the youthful Spock is answering math questions prompted by a screen in front of him, instructors observing overhead. Something akin to this would be pretty sweet. Where you could whiteboard out stuff all day in a high fidelity environment that uses OCR and AI to keep testing you on your weak points until you become stronger in each particular subject area. Something like this would ensure that you truly do have an understanding of everything before moving on. It could also use this information collected about you to introduce you to new topics in other subjects like physics based on your current understanding. Concepts could be masterfully articulated and narrated by famous voice actors like Morgan Freeman ect. A taxononomy/hierachy of subjects and concepts could be traversed to create unique learning programs when achievement is unlocked through true understanding rather than letter grades. Kind of like leveling up in an RPG.. would make things fun.

    1. Re:Vulcans are doing it right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like the book in Stephenson's Diamond Age.

    2. Re:Vulcans are doing it right by SilverEyes · · Score: 1

      ...Kind of like leveling up in an RPG.. would make things fun.

      The only problem is that some people would then become addicted to this so-called "life MMORPG" and neglect their own lives :P

      --
      Interesting.
  29. Two mathematicians by Conspiracy_Of_Doves · · Score: 4, Funny

    Two mathematics professors are having lunch at a restaurant. The first mathematician keeps complaining about how ignorant the typical American is and how he's suprised that the average person in this country has enough mathematical prowess to balance a checkbook.

    The second mathematician says, "Don't you think you're being a little harsh? The average person surely has more mathematical ability than you give them credit for."

    The first mathematician responds, "Absolutely not! I'm sure if you asked the first person you met on the street to solve a basic algebra problem, they would have no idea where to start."

    The second mathematician says, "Okay, I'll make a bet with you. At the end of the meal, I'll ask our waitress to solve a calculus problem. If she can solve it, you pay for lunch. If she can't, I'll pay."

    "Thanks in advance for lunch!" the first mathematician says confidently.

    Later, while the first mathematician is in the bathroom, the second mathematician flags the waitress down and says, "Listen, when you bring us our check I'm going to ask you a math question. I want you to answer, âone-half x-squared.' Can you remember that? If you do, I'll leave an extra big tip." He encourages her to write it down phonetically and practice it so that it seems natural.

    At the end of the meal, after the waitress puts the bill on the table, the second mathematician says, "Oh, could you answer a little question for me? What's the integral of x with respect to x?"

    The waitress looks unsure at first, but says, "One-half x-squared."

    With a grin, the second mathematician slides the bill over to the first mathematician.

    As the waitress is walking away, she turns back and says over her shoulder "plus a constant!"

    1. Re:Two mathematicians by PPH · · Score: 1

      But she's only a waitress.

      Admit that The Flintstones reflects historical fact and she can have that nice corporate job.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    2. Re:Two mathematicians by Bootsy+Collins · · Score: 1

      I love this.

    3. Re:Two mathematicians by SilverEyes · · Score: 1

      You know... I've never thought that joke was funny.

      --
      Interesting.
    4. Re:Two mathematicians by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Killer!!! Mod up funny :-)

    5. Re:Two mathematicians by twistedcubic · · Score: 1

      The variant I heard was a little better. The joke is the same, but as the waitress walks away, a busboy whispers to her, "plus C".

    6. Re:Two mathematicians by juancnuno · · Score: 1

      An exponential function and a constant function are walking down the street. In the distance they spot a differential operator. The constant function goes, "Oh no! A differential operator! If he gets to me I'm screwed!"

      The exponential function confidently responds, "I'm not afraid! I'm e^x!"

      The constant function says, "Well, I'm not sticking around to see what happens."

      The exponential function and the constant function part ways. The exponential function reaches the differential operator and boasts, "I'm not afraid of you! I'm e^x!"

      And the differential operator answers, "I'm d/dy."

      http://instantrimshot.com/

  30. Half Steps by sampson7 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This man is a beautiful dreamer. I don't think his rather Platonic vision of the perfect math class will ever be acheivable. But there are a bunch of half steps that I think would really help math and address his fundamental point that math, as it's currently taught, is boring as all heck and does nothing for the vast majority of us who don't use calculus or even algebra in our day-to-day lives. I mean really, the last time I did anything more than basic algebra was tutoring others! And while learning math so that you can help someone elses' kids study for a test is a fine goal, I'm not sure it's really worth the thousands of hours I spent taking math!

    First, *use* math to solve real problems and explain real scientific principles. Radio Lab (THE official National Public Radio show for geeks everywhere) had a great little episode where some student "discovers" that the periodicity of a pendulum forms a parabola when charted on a graph. Wow! That's heady stuff. (It's the first story of this episode.) Understanding the interaction of science and math -- the universe, really -- is something that we can teach. Integration of math and science gets us part of the way there.

    Second, incorporate the history of math into math class. Math advances all occur because of some historical context. Combining the two is a half-step that will get students to understand "why" we created this math, even if they never quite get the quadratic formula down. Combine these two principles, and it would go a long way.

    1. Re:Half Steps by Kymermosst · · Score: 1

      First, *use* math to solve real problems and explain real scientific principles. Radio Lab (THE official National Public Radio show for geeks everywhere) had a great little episode where some student "discovers" that the periodicity of a pendulum forms a parabola when charted on a graph.

      If that is true than the show is part of the problem. The graph of a pendulum's motion with respect to time is a sine wave.

      And we wonder why our kids have problems with math.

      --
      "Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
    2. Re:Half Steps by sampson7 · · Score: 1

      Talk about missing the point! The attitude that a student is wrong if he or she were to mis-interpret the math underlying a natual phenomon is precisely the problem with the educational system. A student making such an observation should be praised and encouraged to continue exploring. Who cares if it's technically a sine wave instead of parabola??? If he goes further in math/science, he or she will learn that periodicity is actually a sine wave. If not, he will simply appreciate that there is some connection between physical behaviors and certain math concepts. Either way, the profound joy of discovery will stay with him.

      Besides, if I remember my math, a sine wave is simply made up of a string of parabolas with a change in the inflection point at Y = 0. (Not bad for a lawyer, eh?)

    3. Re:Half Steps by dcollins · · Score: 1

      "Besides, if I remember my math, a sine wave is simply made up of a string of parabolas with a change in the inflection point at Y = 0. (Not bad for a lawyer, eh?)"

      That is incredibly incorrect.

      Consider: What is the derivative of a parabola and a sine wave? Are they the same?

      --
      We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
    4. Re:Half Steps by sampson7 · · Score: 1

      Hmm... Over a given half-period of the sine wave, wouldn't they be the same?

      As I remember (and I am rusty), a derivative is simply the rate of change of a given function, or effectively the slope of the curve. Over a half period, at any given point along the sine wave, wouldn't the change in slope be the same as a parabola? In other words, isn't the shape of one "wave" in the sine wave a parabola? I may be mis-remembering, but I don't think I'm that far off.

      But more to the point -- the conversation we're having is *exactly* the type of discussion that would be fabulous to encourage in our educational system. The rights and wrongs of it are not really relevant until we put the kid in charge of building a bridge. We are talking about teaching an understanding of principles -- not focusing on results. It's like teaching the scientific method (or putting together a research brief, for that matter) -- the actual results are far less important than the process.

    5. Re:Half Steps by itsdapead · · Score: 1

      This man is a beautiful dreamer. I don't think his rather Platonic vision of the perfect math class will ever be acheivable.

      Haven't read the whole TFA yet, but he's nailed the problem nicely on the first page: typical school math is too often presented as a laundry list of silly things to remember how to do. When you've done that, instead of going on to do some interesting stuff with the tricks you've learned, your reward is to learn a whole set of new, slightly more complicated, silly things to do.

      His solution seems a bit too predicated on the idea that Pure Math floats everybody's boat: Sure pure maths is important*, School Math needs to make an impression on future engineers, accountants, architects, chefs, etc. - plus the world would be a much better shape if Joe Sixpack had been encouraged to make the link between that thing about the rice and the chessboard and a credit card bill. Professional mathematicians (and many /.ers) seem to have a hard time thinking down to anything below undergraduate level :-)

      and does nothing for the vast majority of us who don't use calculus or even algebra in our day-to-day lives

      Well, if you use a spreadsheet for planning you're using algebra concepts (except I've seen a depressing number of people who use pocket calculator or windows calc to work out what numbers to fill into Excel because, of course, in class, spreadsheets are only for the annual cat & dog survey). Part of the reason people don't use math in everyday life is that it doesn't occur to them that they could.

      First, *use* math to solve real problems and explain real scientific principles

      ...and the important word there is "real" as in "something someone might actually want to do in the real world - not the bizarro parallel mathworld in which Grandma decides to divide her $3600 windfall between Alice, Bob and Sufia in the ratio 2:3:4. That's what you get when someone adds some "real world" problems to their curriculum buy taking the old math practice exercises and making up stories around them.

      Of course, you could ask the kids to help Grandma come up with a fair way to divide her winnings amongst her grandchildren - but then the danger is that they might come up with a workable solution that doesn't use a ratio and we're "doing" ratio in this lesson.

      The worst cases of this include things like standard probability questions with grafted-on contexts where the events are clearly not independent.

      Trouble is, although it is possible to identify a real problem, find some math in it that kids can identify and tackle, present it with just the Goldilocks optimum amount of clues and structure then work out how to fit that into a curriculum... it is much, much quicker and cheaper to find someone to take textbook math exercises, wrap stories around them and call them "real world mathematical problems". Ker-ching!

      The other problem is that you find that kids that do well on a page of exercises crash and burn when they are asked to walk and chew gum at the same time by applying the same math to a real problem (especially if they have to spot the math to use) - and this looks bad on the report card and takes up valuable "learning to do some harder exercises" time.

      Second, incorporate the history of math into math class.

      Not just history: a bit more "learn about what real math can do" and a bit less "learn to do very simple math". Bring in topical issue ("can you spot the problem with these figures from the newspaper" is an inexhaustible source!) There's a tendency in math education to never talk about something if kids wouldn't be able to complete a page of exercises on it or memorize the proof.

      * Pure math is, of course, vital: if physicists didn't have a supply of abstract math to find practical applications for, how would they annoy mathematicians? :-)

      --
      In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
    6. Re:Half Steps by itsdapead · · Score: 1

      The graph of a pendulum's motion with respect to time is a sine wave

      Which is the same basic shape as a cosine wave, for which the first two terms of the series expansion are 1-0.5x^2 which is a....?

      Or maybe they timed some pendulums of different lengths and found that the length of the pendulum was proportional to the square of the period?

      And we wonder why our kids have problems with math.

      Yes, when their told "wrong, try again" because they don't get the precise answer that was in the teacher's head.

      --
      In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
    7. Re:Half Steps by Kymermosst · · Score: 1

      Which is the same basic shape as a cosine wave, for which the first two terms of the series expansion are 1-0.5x^2 which is a....?

      You can't just throw away the rest of the terms when you are describing the motion of a pendulum versus time.

      I agree that teachers shouldn't expect precisely correct answers, but shouldn't an incorrect answer to a question about physical objects at least reflect reality?

      Clearly, a pendulum (in the ordinary sense) doesn't swing once from (-infinity,infinity) to (infinity,infinity) which would be what a parabola describes.

      --
      "Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
    8. Re:Half Steps by Kymermosst · · Score: 1

      I got so worked up over the actual math that I forgot to make my point, which was:

      There is a lot of incorrect teaching out there given by perceived authoritative sources (a TV show, in this case).

      To this day my father refuses to believe this: .99999.... (repeats forever) is exactly equal to 1.

      Why? Because someone told him at a young age that it doesn't and no amount of convincing him today as he approaches 60 will change his mind, despite the fact that I can think of at least three ways to prove it.

      How many people over the years who don't know better have been told this same thing? How many of them are teachers with degrees in education and not mathematics?

      --
      "Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
    9. Re:Half Steps by Kymermosst · · Score: 1

      Over a given half-period of the sine wave, wouldn't they be the same?

      No. A parabola is defined as the set of all points in a plane that are equally distant from a focus and a line (directrix). The points contained within a half-period of the sine wave do not have this property.

      But more to the point -- the conversation we're having is *exactly* the type of discussion that would be fabulous to encourage in our educational system.

      Agreed.

      --
      "Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
    10. Re:Half Steps by SilverEyes · · Score: 1

      Besides, if I remember my math, a sine wave is simply made up of a string of parabolas with a change in the inflection point at Y = 0. (Not bad for a lawyer, eh?)

      While I agree with the rest of your post, I believe this is wrong.

      --
      Interesting.
    11. Re:Half Steps by vainvanevein · · Score: 1

      The OP said periodicity of the pendulum rather than its motion. So I'd guess that would be how fast the sine wave decays.

    12. Re:Half Steps by dcollins · · Score: 1

      "Hmm... Over a given half-period of the sine wave, wouldn't they be the same?"

      No. The derivative of a parabola is a straight line. The derivative of a sine wave is a cosine wave.

      Parabolas and sine waves are not remotely the same thing.

      --
      We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
    13. Re:Half Steps by itsdapead · · Score: 1

      You can't just throw away the rest of the terms when you are describing the motion of a pendulum versus time.

      No, but it shows that "parabola" or a "series of parabolas joined together" is not a bad first approximation from someone who may not have encountered a sine wave before and/or may have only plotted part of the cycle.

      Clearly, a pendulum (in the ordinary sense) doesn't swing once from (-infinity,infinity) to (infinity,infinity) which would be what a parabola describes.

      "Clearly" to who? You (with, I presume, some sort of mathematical prowess) or a kid still in the early stages of learning mathematics?

      So give them some credit for a good first guess, ask them how they know its a parabola, ask them how the graph continues after the bit they plotted, gently prod them towards discovering why a parabola doesn't work. Don't just dismiss what they've done as "bzzt! Wrong! Its a sine wave!".

      To this day my father refuses to believe this: .99999.... (repeats forever) is exactly equal to 1.

      Amazing. Its not as if that involves any concepts - like the nature of infinity or how it is possible to know the sum of an infinite series - that a non-mathematician might find difficult, or which perplexed the fathers of mathematics, l, is it?

      I hope you started by acknowledging what is right about his position - that even if you could somehow write a "9" on every atom in the universe, you still wouldn't get to exactly "1" - and that the whole argument depended on the mathematical notion of "infinity" not just meaning "a really huge number" (or more than 60' away if you are a photographer). In fact, you can turn it around and say that what "infinity" means to a mathematician is the number of 9s you'd have to put after the point to get to exactly 1...

      There is a lot of incorrect teaching out there given by perceived authoritative sources (a TV show, in this case).

      Amen to that. However, if you want kids to learn math, dealing with that is part of the challenge - and you don't do that by saying "that's wrong - here is the right answer" - you need to understand what's so compelling about the "wrong" answer, acknowledge that and then challenge the conclusion.

      --
      In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
    14. Re:Half Steps by Kymermosst · · Score: 1

      I don't think that forms a parabola, either. :)

      --
      "Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
    15. Re:Half Steps by Kymermosst · · Score: 1

      Amen to that. However, if you want kids to learn math, dealing with that is part of the challenge - and you don't do that by saying "that's wrong - here is the right answer" - you need to understand what's so compelling about the "wrong" answer, acknowledge that and then challenge the conclusion.

      I don't thing I've really disagreed with anything you've said.

      All I meant to say at the beginning is that teachers at least should know what they are talking about, and so should "edutainment" programs on TV. Basically, the educators of the world should have their own stuff straight so they don't go teaching the wrong thing.

      Reminds me of another pet peeve. Average high temperature here this time of year is about 74 degrees. So it hits 80 one day and the "news" says it's 6 degrees above "normal" for this time of year. In fact, it is perfectly "normal" have a high of 80 or more this time of year. It's also perfectly normal to have a high of only 60.

      But here the authority figure is saying that the weather is not "normal" and the legions of people in the area think it's some how "abnormal". Suddenly, cries of climate change and the evilness of humanity rise in local forums when the temperature hits the mid 80s when "normal" is exactly 74 degrees, the local weather man said so!

      --
      "Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
  31. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

    "Asia, for example, is still really keen on rote learning. The failure of American pupils is probably not due to the way the subject is taught, but rather because they don't feel the pressure to excel like students in other cultures."

    Performance is unrelated to the overly jargonistic complexity, just because asia and india are harsh and drill their kids to perform does not mean they have any clue how to derive creatively go beyond what they are learning. They may make good workers but that doesn't mean anything.

    One gains a fuller understanding of math when you realize how to start from the beginning and learn how to observe, if you look at the progress of mathematics over the centuries - systems of symbols and other systems were created to systematize a problem and break it down, most people didn't have to sit down and come up with calculus or algebra themselves, but you can teach kids how to observe and derive things themselves and not feel ashamed to get creative and "go outside" traditional symbolic jargon for leaps forward in creatively seeing underlying relationships between things beyond symbolic computation.

    One can be a good performing mathematician and still be clueless about the deeper relationships and observational skills required to become very versed in what math is, outside of what one is taught.

    Math has an enormous amount of dogmatism attached to it. Performance in mathematics is only one aspect, we should ask - besides performance, what about understanding? I mean everything I've learned about mathematics I had to teach myself, so I could see through the bullshit of the establishment. I learned I was a visual mathematician, that I understand math through more natural mode of thought: pictures and geometry.

    Math is really the language of form and structure, and all structure is necessarily geometric in some way, even relationships (structures of information).

  32. Wrong tool for the job by tyrione · · Score: 1

    Stop hiring Education Majors to teach The Hard Sciences. Unless you include Historical Curriculum of famous and infamous Scientists into your early days of learning the Hard Sciences will forever be a mystery.

    If you want a kid to know Euclidean Plane Geometry you better make ``The Elements Books I-XIII'', by Euclid part of the curriculum early on and gradually bring into view the history of its making followed by the actually application.

    The same goes for Physics with Newton, Robert Boyle, Euler, etc.

    Hell, I'm just getting all the backlog history of these giants and I'm a M.E. It would have made my days far more enriching to know how they came up with this crap outside of the Calculus derived explanations. I love Mathematics and it's endless Engineering Applications [mainly because I could always visualize their application--something innate and not taught] but reading the greats memoirs and more makes it come together.

    Instead of just History over political events we need History over Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry, EE, ME, CE, etc.

    You don't suddenly become educated in Paleontology without first knowing it's foundation, heavily grounded in History. Hell even Fine Arts requires a massive background in the history of the fields pioneers.

    1. Re:Wrong tool for the job by Fallingcow · · Score: 1

      I read Adler's How to Read a Book a couple of years ago. In it, Adler claims that the best text from which to learn a principle is that written by the person who discovered it--so, as you say, you read Euclid's elements for Euclidean geometry, some Archimedes for conic sections, some Lavoisier for chemistry, etc.

      My initial reaction on reading this was to reject the idea; after all, why should the person who first discovered something be the best one at conveying the idea to others? That didn't strike me as being necessarily true.

      I've continued to struggle with Adler's notions, and I've since decided that I agree, though I'm not sure whether it's for the same reasons as him. Reading Lockhart's paper a few weeks ago and slowly working through E.T. Bell's Men of Mathematics has led me to the conclusion that the raw facts and processes of science and mathematics are often less important for (especially young) students than the processes by which discoveries are made; the way the discoverer came to understand a principle is often more important to grasp than the principle itself.

      I'm still not sure if that's what Adler meant (if not, then I still disagree with his reasoning--I don't think he elaborated much on what led him to this conclusion in How to Read a Book) but I've come to agree that the classics in math and science do matter, even if the raw facts and processes are better-described elsewhere.

    2. Re:Wrong tool for the job by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      I hope you're not serious. Expecting teenagers to read Newton is a great way of putting them off physics for life. He is quite possibly the most dull and convoluted writer ever to abuse the English language. A grounding in the history of a subject is important, but reading Newton is a terrible idea.

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    3. Re:Wrong tool for the job by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      > Stop hiring Education Majors to teach The Hard Sciences.

      The government won't license anyone else to teach (one of many examples of the perniciousness of the entire concept of licensing).

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    4. Re:Wrong tool for the job by geekoid · · Score: 1

      That is completly wrong.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    5. Re:Wrong tool for the job by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      In my school, we had plenty of teachers who had no degree in Education.

    6. Re:Wrong tool for the job by SilverEyes · · Score: 1

      As both a reply to this and the GP, trying to read original works can be very challenging. For one, they are not written in the same language (assuming you speak English), and the brevity of our modern language was lost to the ancients. Second, why waste centuries of thought, development and simplification after many of these things were initially discovered? E.T. Bell's Men of Mathematics is easily one of the best popular science books written about math. Ever. Contrast this with reading the (translated) proofs of God Created The Integers, which is easier to digest?

      --
      Interesting.
    7. Re:Wrong tool for the job by bgalehouse · · Score: 1

      I hope you're not serious. Expecting teenagers to read Newton is a great way of putting them off physics for life. He is quite possibly the most dull and convoluted writer ever to abuse the English language. A grounding in the history of a subject is important, but reading Newton is a terrible idea.

      English? Why ever would you expect a book with the tittle "Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica" to be written in english? Images of the text seem to match the tittle.

    8. Re:Wrong tool for the job by thrawn_aj · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I strongly disagree with the Adlerian precept. It is especially dangerous in science because knowledge is continually being added to the subject and long-hidden connections are continually being discovered. As a VERY relevant analogy, take complex analysis (square root of -1 and all that follows therefrom :P). If you read any books from the childhood days of this subject, they will seem incredibly complicated.

      While I appreciate where you're going with your statement: "the way the discoverer came to understand a principle is often more important to grasp than the principle itself", the hope that this will be clear by reading an original work is just too much to ask for. Science historians labor for years to try to grasp some of those original thought processes. I personally find it much more fruitful to read these histories or a good modern textbook with a historical bent (An imaginary tale and Dr. Euler's fabulous formula - while not textbooks - are excellent examples of this species) to obtain some understanding of how the scientist actually thought of doing this. It just doesn't seem like a good use of one's time to wade through obsolete jargon and obscure (and nearly always annoying) notation just for that one spark of inspiring genius, which can be found readily in modern treatments because modern authors usually worship these ancient masters and provide these little gems at no extra cost :). While this may seem a bit unromantic of me, I simply believe that the content and readability of scientific books is way more important than anything else.

      Early notation is almost always ridiculous complicated (when you look at it in hindsight). Take the idea of vector notation that people use as a matter of course in nursery school math. It is remarkably elegant - especially the ideas of dot and cross products and the determinant form for the latter. Look at any old textbook on the subject and you'll get arcane and obfuscatory animals like dyads and triads. Tensor notation (relatively recent) revolutionized the way this subject (and it is used almost everywhere in physics, engineering, hell - even computer graphics, so it is VERY important as a practical matter).

      Brilliant (often crazy) people give birth to a new subject - one feels only awe when one considers these people. Wiser people then consolidate the subject over the next N years until it hold together beautifully. Even wiser people then continue to find deeper connections between this new subject and others that have lain around for a while.

      In fact, in physics, the only book from the horse's mouth (so to say) that I actually found halfway understandable was Dirac's treatment of Quantum Mechanics. Even so, more modern books (Sakurai for grads or Griffiths for undergrads) is entirely more clear because by then any redundancies and clumsy notations been polished away, things feel right because they are consistent notationally with the rest of physics. I cannot over-emphasize the importance of consistent, clean and meaningful notation in trying to convey scientific knowledge successfully. The Humanities can be wishy washy in this regard but science can never afford the loss the clarity that ensues.

      Another example: for a graduate level introduction to General Relativity, one might try to read Einstein's original paper - historically significant no doubt. A better way would be to read the fearsome Landau for field theories (not bad at all but not easy) or Wald (1984) - even better and getting more modern in terms of things we know. Or one might do the wise thing and go straight for Sean Carroll (2003!) for what might the MOST lucid treatment of GR ever written. I have great respect for a man who spends time clarifying (and thereby making laughably simple) the ferocious tensor notation of GR. Indeed, it is so clear, that I wished it had come out before I graduated with my B.S. (coincidentally in 2003 :P).

      Do you see a pattern here? I do no

    9. Re:Wrong tool for the job by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      You're right. I read a translation; it turns out that even translating it into relatively modern English didn't make it any less opaque. My Latin is far too rusty to read more than a few sentences of the original, but from what I do understand it seems that the translator did make it more approachable than the original.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  33. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by mario_grgic · · Score: 1

    You are not truly a mathematician until you learn to abstract. Symbols are ultimate abstractions. Yes, you can invent your own symbols, but you will still have symbols.

    Think about how children learn to count. They first count concrete objects, one finger, two fingers, ... one apple, two apples, etc. and then we abstract. Remove the object being counted and just have one, two. This is where the big abstraction happens. We arrive to the concept of oneness, without thinking about 1 something. Now add symbols for those abstractions 1, 2 and now you can do some neat things with symbols that translate into concrete objects when applied. This is the essence of math.

    Yes, symbolism introduced is standardized so that we can talk to each other and exchange ideas. Otherwise, it would take a lot of time for you to explain all your symbols to me before we could have any meaningful conversation.

    --
    As the island of our knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance.
  34. It starts with the textbooks. . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You start by having someone like the gentleman who wrote that paper create a new textbook and teachers' manual to go along with it (or, really, a 'series' of textbooks that go through the different grades) that implements the different way of teaching mathematics which he is espousing. It then dies in state and local education department when there is resistance from comittees on doing things differently than they've been done before, and anyhow there is no funding for new textbooks anyhow.

    . . . But if you can manage to get some school districts to attempt the material, you basically have the teachers go through a math 're-education' using the textbook and teachers' manual, then they just teach from the book (of course, there needs to be *some* creativity on the part of the teacher, in adding new examples or explanations that the textbook author might not have thought of, but is necessary to help students who aren't 'getting' the examples and explanations in the book). But, if the teachers themselves have read through the book and the manual(and hopefully there is good supplemental discussion in the teachers' manual about *how* to teach the material), they should be prepared to teach the new method themselves.

    1. Re:It starts with the textbooks. . . by geobeck · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You start by having someone like the gentleman who wrote that paper create a new textbook and teachers' manual to go along with it (or, really, a 'series' of textbooks that go through the different grades) that implements the different way of teaching mathematics which he is espousing. It then dies in state and local education department when there is resistance from comittees on doing things differently than they've been done before, and anyhow there is no funding for new textbooks anyhow.

      And you get around the economic obstacles by subverting the system: Crowdsource the textbook to a group of interested mathematicians. Publish it online for free, with printed copies available for a price far below what a crooked textbook publisher would charge. Add value by posting demonstrations by mathematicians, math historians, and math professors on YouTube, linked to the relevant chapter of this comprehensive, global mathematics resource.

      --
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    2. Re:It starts with the textbooks. . . by exploder · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wow, you didn't read the paper very closely if you think he could produce a textbook (or a series) to implement what he's advocating.

      --
      Yo dawg, I heard you like the Ackermann function, so OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD
    3. Re:It starts with the textbooks. . . by levicivita · · Score: 1

      Absolutely spot on. Except I would add one thing. There is no need to create a new textbook. The fundamentals of mathematics have been well established for somewhere between 50-150 years. Let's face it, the current cutting edge of research in mathematics requires 10-20 years of full time training. As a corollary, we do not require a new textbook every year. Or every other year. Or every decade even.

      Books like Courant's Introduction to Calculus and Analysis or Rudin's Principles of Mathematical Analysis are great examples. In fairness, they are a little too advanced, but chapters from them can be used selectively or simpler but equally outstanding presentations can be found.

    4. Re:It starts with the textbooks. . . by AhtirTano · · Score: 1

      And the teacher gets fired for using non-approved curricular materials.

    5. Re:It starts with the textbooks. . . by geobeck · · Score: 1

      And the teacher gets fired for using non-approved curricular materials.

      Mod up. Unfortunately, school boards are often more poorly educated than teachers or students.

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      Find environmentally and socially responsible products on http://buy-right.net
    6. Re:It starts with the textbooks. . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Yeah, while I'm sure you could produce interesting books and materials that way, I thought the author of the essay was advocating letting creativity, imagination and curiosity drive the learning experience - at that point, you might find reference materials or histories histories useful for sparking ideas or suggesting possible approaches a student might take, but they'd be completely unlike any "textbooks" currently in use.

    7. Re:It starts with the textbooks. . . by oh2 · · Score: 1

      Nice idea, but it would be a total failure. Mathematicians have no idea how to teach math to kids. Remember that mathematicians are that top one percent of kids that love math and always has had an easy time of it. Its a bit like asking the olympic gold medal winners in track and field to develop a PE curriculum and set the standards for whats normal.

      --

      Now the world has gone to bed, Darkness won't engulf my head, I can see by infra-red, How I hate the night.

    8. Re:It starts with the textbooks. . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Make sure such works are published, formed and critiqued on freenet, so that true freedom-of-speech is retained and industry crooks can be filtered out. (once they've done something stupid, their psudonyms will never be trusted again)

  35. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by jimbobborg · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I saw the issue the OP stated in all of the K-12 schools I went to. As my father was in the military, I got to go to 3 elementary schools, 1 middle school, and 2 high schools. Some teachers were able to handle students at different reading/math levels in elementary school, but once I hit middle/high school, everything except math was lowest common denominator. In Seventh grade, the English class was using the reader I used in Fifth grade. And people in the class were having a hard time with it! The only way I could get away from the morons was to get into an AP class. Of course, I couldn't get into the AP English classes as my grades were too low in Eighth grade (should have actually done my homework.) Math was something I was good at. I had excellent Math teachers in HS. Sadly, I went to college. By my second quarter, I had enough of the stupid rote memorization of proofs that had to be regurgitated on exams to just stop attending classes. Feh.

  36. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by CRCulver · · Score: 1

    Performance is unrelated to the overly jargonistic complexity, just because asia and india are harsh and drill their kids to perform does not mean they have any clue how to derive creatively go beyond what they are learning. They may make good workers but that doesn't mean anything.

    Dude, now you're approaching xenophobia. Have you looked at the state of mathematics in American universities? A conspicuous amount of highly original researchers are the product of foreign educational systems. They aren't doomed to being tech support monkeys like you insinuate.

  37. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

    Yes they are but notice how

    3 hides the fact that its actualyl THREE 1's

    (1) (1) (1)

    of couse all systems use shorthand to compress teh relationships but when we say 3, we mean *three distinct shapes/objects/things*

    Our characters we use for numbers *hide* those relationships.

  38. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 1

    Not sure where you went to school, but in my high school, you took the class most appropriate to your abilities at the time. Some were taking basic math and algebra in 10th grade while I was in a precalculus class. In 12th grade I was in an early morning advanced calculus class taught by a professor from the local university.

    There is no "math class" at that level anymore, at least in my experience. Even middle school was like that because I got my advanced algebra there.

    As for the essay linked by the original article. it smacks of the "whole language" approach that swept through schools here in California in the 1980s and 1990s, much to its detriment. I actually went into the article expecting to agree with Mr. Mathematician, but wound up thinking the guy is a loon (after slogging through *TWO* overwrought analogies). I get what he wants, but you don't toss out the basic foundations of functional mathematics to accomplish it.

  39. Teachers Unions by NotWithABang · · Score: 1

    I wish I could find an electronic copy of an editorial I found not too long ago in a local paper. It made an excellent and succinct point about how teachers unions are bringing about mass idiocy in our educational systems and, as a result, our populations.

    I'm sure there's many factors contributing to our declining educational systems, but I don't think anyone can deny that attempting to standardize teaching and "level the playing field" as it were may not be as great of an idea as it sounds in theory. For many, math can be a hard subject. All arguments about relative difficulties and complexities aside, maths and sciences are at least not as accessible as, say, literature, history, or art. So it would stand to reason, that with less people gaining a firm and passionate grasp on a subject, there would be less available who are qualified to not only teach it, but teach it well.

    Now, with teacher's unions gaining the same benefits for all teachers, where a history teacher and a calculus teacher of the same level of skill and experience receive the same compensation for their troubles, how much motivation does the truly talented mathmetician have to teach in highschool when various industries will pay him ridiculously more to work for them instead? How many history teachers would get offered $100K plus by the private sector?

    So with supply and demand being what they are and all teachers NOT being created equal, why are they being paid the same? This only results in lesser qualified and lesser motivated math and science teachers in highschool resulting in less motivated and less educated students who have less chance of going into post-secondary math and science. Less post-secondary math and science students means a smaller number of talented mathmeticians and scientists graduating. This means a smaller number of potential future highschool teachers who are talented and educated enough to guide and motivate students in those fields. The cycle repeats.

    I can't see the current educational crisis improving at all if these unions continue to insist that a history major has the same value as a good mathematician. I'm pretty sure we would have never made it to the moon if all we did was research the details of the war of 1812.

    --

    ... I must be new here.
  40. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by Fallingcow · · Score: 1

    The big buzz word/trendy strategy in elementary-level teaching right now is "differentiated instruction". What it means is teaching a single concept at several levels of difficulty simultaneously. It's sort of like ability grouping into different classes like you talk about, but all in one classroom and with one teacher (and maybe a TA or Para or some such).

    It's actually pretty good when it's done right, but as far as I can tell most elementary school teachers are awful at coming up with effective differentiated lesson plans. Many just think it's impossible and refuse to even try. I expect it to go away in a few years, just like most of the other trendy teaching ideas since, well, forever ago. Maybe we'll move toward having separate ability-grouped classes after it fails.

  41. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by PeanutButterBreath · · Score: 1

    US schools have Advanced Placement classes. Oh yeah, and there is no reason motivated students can't move at their own pace outside of the classroom (or inside).

    All you are calling for is a system that offers more than one sized spoon with which to feed students. That's just a better version of a fundamentally flawed educational philosophy. Or rather, it stretches a fine philosophy beyond its logical limit and makes it flawed. A chef can get by just fine with a US HS level understanding of math, for example. More math won't make better chefs (the opposite, potentially).

    If a person's excuse for having less education than they wanted (or than Europenas might have) is that the US school system only caters to the lowest common denominator, they are lazy, not deprived.

  42. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Most US schools have different courses based on skill level.

    Um, no they don't, apart from a very limited portion of Honors/AP courses. The rest are one-size-fits-all, based on some sort of misguided egalitarianism.

  43. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by maraist · · Score: 1

    The failure of American pupils is probably not due to the way the subject is taught, but rather because they don't feel the pressure to excel like students in other cultures.

    Huh? Getting into college isn't an extremely pressing/taxing/competitive ordeal?

    I'll tell you why US students are degrading in test-worthy performance: Grade-inflation forced down the throats of schools by bitchy parents who can't believe their kid got a C when in prior years they'd gotten an A (most likely due to grade-inflation having to slowly work it's way up and through college). This does a tremendous disservice to the children, as they are less and less prepared for each successive year, until the overwhelming feeling completely puts them off of any subject that has prerequisites (like math/science).

    --
    -Michael
  44. I don't understand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This will sound rich coming from an Anonymous Coward, but an expert on exactly what is wrong is a fortiori an expert on what is right. So I hope the author publishes a teaching manual with his ideas. No doubt, it'll bring a revolution in math teaching.

  45. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by LordKazan · · Score: 2, Insightful

    so you want to teach math using base-1 ... that's... insane.

    --
    If you cannot keep politics out of your moderation remove yourself from the Mod Lottery.. NOW!
  46. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by chaim79 · · Score: 1

    I think what he is saying is that numerals are purely arbitrary symbols, if you have no experience with the numbers a first glance at the sequence "1, 2, 3" would net you nothing. the Mayans used symbols that actually represented the number in a more universal way: ".", "..", "..." (I would continue the numbering but it's challenge using word processing) with the Mayan method the first 4 'numbers' directly correlate to quantity, and the bar can be inferred by a simple number progression. I'd say Genius.

    --
    DEMETRIUS: Villain, what hast thou done?
    AARON: Villain, I have done thy mother.
    Shakespeare invents 'your mom'
  47. U.S. Public Education by syphax · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Discussing "US Public Education" is about as specific as discussing global weather. Is it cloudy or raining today? The education system is the US is quite federalized- most of the decisions about pretty much anything are made at the state and local levels.

    I, personally, am quite happy with my 1st graders' (twins) math education. They've learned concepts like how to estimate, pattern detection, etc., as well as the rote mechanics of arithmetic. And they get more of it at home ("Here's a cookie. Tomorrow I'll give you twice as many as I did today. How many will you have in a week?"). But I live in a pretty rich suburb outside Boston, where the MIT professors live in the less-affluent neighborhoods.

    We can bitch about the schools all we want, but it's a deeper cultural issues. School teachers get OK pay and benefits, good (though rigidly defined) vacations, and no respect. What kind of profile of person does that attract? In my experience, a real mix of people who are passionate about teaching (often with well-paid spouses) and those that mail it in 'til vacation starts. The balance of those (and other) groups varies widely by district. More than pay, this is really an issue of respect. I can't tell you how many teachers I know who report 'lack of respect for their profession' as the #1 gripe about their job. I wouldn't put up with that (not that I'd make a good teacher).

    --
    Simple Unexpected Concrete Credible Emotional Stories
    1. Re:U.S. Public Education by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      Here's a cookie. Tomorrow I'll give you twice as many as I did today. How many will you have in a week?

      The answer is, of course zero; they will have eaten them all! They will, however, have a stomach ache from eating 128 cookies the last day, and quite possibly have diabetes from eating 255 cookies within a week.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    2. Re:U.S. Public Education by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where would they get the other 252 cookies?

    3. Re:U.S. Public Education by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wtf, parent only said something about now (one cookie) and tomorrow (two cookies), not the days after that. You're over by 125.

    4. Re:U.S. Public Education by ChaosDiscord · · Score: 1

      "Here's a cookie. Tomorrow I'll give you twice as many as I did today. How many will you have in a week?"

      Zero? Because I ate them all?

  48. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ah, well, you see, when I was in school 40 years ago, classes were broken out based on ability - those students that were slower to understand, shall we say (boneheads, my mother called them) were in one class, and those quick to catch on in another. Then in the very early '70s, such tracking came to be seen as evil, discriminatory, and just not fair. So, everyone was lumped into one group, so no one would feel stigmatized. The results were predictable - schools got into a race to the bottom.

    Fortunately, that nonsense seems to be fading away. My son's high school has an honors track (I think most do, now), and he's in it. At first, he hated it, because it meant extra work, then he realized that the clowns who caused him so much aggravation weren't in the honors classes, but his friends were, and now he's all for that kind of separation.

  49. Lockhart, Sartre, and Authenticity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The central point of the paper is distilled nicely on page 16, and this appears to even escape the author, to some degree:

    You mean training methods. Teaching is a messy human relationship; it does not require a method.

    Sartre discusses this in a much broader way, employing a concept he calls "authenticity." To Sartre, the life lived by fulfilling social expectations and roles is an awful existence. A major piece of authenticity is finding the freedom that exists in our choices, when those choices are unconditioned by our social institutions' crushing expectations.

    Lockhart is pointing out that mathematics education is nothing but training - and training is an inherently inauthentic, anti-human approach. We train people when we don't want to have dialog. We train animals when the conformance of their behavior is the most critical thing about their existence. And Lockhart is pointing out that we are training our children to know a twisted language that most will never be permitted to speak, to read, or to write.

    Cheers to that point - as a human that's interested in mathematics, I've been crushed by this at all levels. But the author's point is much more salient than the article lets on. Seek out and eradicate all of your own authenticities. Help others to do the same. Humanity will be a better place!

  50. One comment/suggestion by sudotron · · Score: 1

    The author suggests that math be taught more as an art than a dry requisite skill. This presents somewhat of a problem though: A great deal of a person's mathematical ability depends on how strongly they understand the foundation of a particular area of study. If we were to treat math courses as "elective", I could forsee all sorts of problems arising.

    I've always done well in math and enjoyed it thoroughly, but I'm not to naive as to say that I would enjoy learning about differential equations without first understanding functions, slopes, derivatives, etc. Taylor Series, Fourier Transforms--these are all beautiful and intricate mathematical concepts, but without understanding the fundamental building blocks which make infinite series work, they are all but useless.

  51. CPM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As someone who was in school during the transition in a California district from a traditional to CPM-based math curriculum, I'd have to agree that math education has gone way downhill. I had the last traditional Algebra II class in my school. The book was almost 300 pages. The chapters set out the theorems/rules, built upon them and Algebra I concepts as they progressed and had A LOT of rigorous nightly problems. (YUCK! at the time, miss it now) My sister had the first CPM-based Algebra II class. It was two sixty page booklets, one for each semester. It was ALL group work (meaning, in the end some poor schlub would be doing the group's work). It didn't mention the rules/theorems except very obliquely -you had to "synthesize" (if I recall the term) them. Assignments were week long elementary school-level experiments that the group would write a five or so page report about. It was the blind leading the blind. When we got to trig., our class was fine. When her class got to trig., it was a disaster. It turned into an Algebra II class, and it really set my sister and her classmates behind on math.

    We have a state college nearby that many of us went to. Those who had done CPM ALL had to take remedial math. Those who had done traditional went straight to calculus or statistics and did mostly well. I would even go so far as to say that, in our small area at least, CPM is responsible to a slight degree for the financial lack of sophistication that led to the stupid loans that are causing our city/county grief.

  52. There is more than one way.... by thebard · · Score: 1

    K-12 math is bad. I'm a product of that system. Until 5th grade my parents were told that I was "slow" when it came to math. In 5th grade I had a wonderful teacher that saw me nodding my head during math class one day while working on a problem. She asked me what I was doing. I said I was "matching" the pattern in my head. It turns out I don't work math like most western people.. I don't memorize. I visualize patterns of 5 and 10, the 5 looks like the 5 on a pair of dice, the 10 looks like two rows of 5's laid out. She, luckily, was learned enough to realize that I naturally mimicked the eastern way of solving lower level math problems. She gave my parents literature and pointed them in the correct direction, even though she will still bound to teach memorization type math in class which never made sense to me.

    Well I ended up becoming an Engineer. I can solve most math problems in my head that make people cry just thinking about them. I can usually add the grocery bill up faster at the checkout than the machine can... and add in the tax. I add in my head left to right, I use the "close enough" principal, all the stuff that drives teachers here nuts because its "wrong". Never mind I was always better at the math and faster than the teachers themselves.

    I have three daughters. The first one started struggling with math in first grade. She did not understand why teachers kept making her use a numberline to add objects. It was hell working with her night after night with the idiotic numberline. We had fights about it every night. One night I kicked myself when I realized she might have the same issue I had... and was pissed since I should be one of the first to recognize it. I grabbed a bowl of dry cheerios and asked her to use them to work the problem. I removed the numberline. Sure enough, she geometrically laid them out. It was a different layout than I use, but none the less It was the same pattern like solving that I use. I almost cried.

    I looked around and attended a few learning centers to see if any of them would teach differently. All of them were the same idiotic system until I found Kumon. If there is one in your area I highly suggest you go check it out. Its not for everyone because the learning is based on eastern principals... and some people jsut don't think that way. My wife for instance just shakes her head at it.

    I guess the moral here is that you can't shoehorn everyone into the same system. Mathematics in its truest form is more an extension of logic than it is about numbers. K-12 teachers keep pounding the number thing into kids heads over an over. Memorize Memorize! My daughter is now going into third grade next year and can add and subtract multiple digit numbers in her head. She is able to divide in her head and get "close enough" by spitting out fractions or remainders, even though she has no idea how to do long division by hand. Quite honestly I don't think *I* remember how to do long division by hand since it never made sense to me. Sure, I understand the principal of it, it just seemed like a backwards way of doing it. Thats the thing... why do it if it seems wrong when there is a perfectly good way of doing it another way?

    The reason is, as was explained to me, that the way I do it doesn't work for standardized testing. Well it works for the right answer but since you are doing the bulk of it in your head there is no "work" to write down. And when there is written on say adding two large numbers the work doesn't make any sense to the grader. There is ALOT of money riding on those standardized tests. So in the end it all boils down to money :(

  53. More money in death by michaelmalak · · Score: 3, Insightful
    For the mathematically inclined, salaries are 4x as much for building the next bomb or trading the next CDS than there is in teaching. This is due to the government monopoly on education and the high barrier of entry to those who would challenge that monopoly.

    I have to comply with 300 pages of regulations for the school I started in Denver. The cost of compliance is at least half the total budget.

    Although this article did not touch once upon the issue of wages, it is a very good article -- perhaps the best I've read all year on the subject of education. The need to introduce mathematical intuition at a young age is something the Montessori Method has done for a century. In a Montessori school, the child progresses from concrete to abstract, working first -- from very young at two years old -- with physical objects that embody length, area, or volume, and only later attaching the abstract symbols we call numbers. The physical manipulation leads to visualization of how addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, and fractions work. A child who goes through all three years of "Primary", which is age 3 to age 6, by the end of it, the child will be multiplying and dividing, and have worked with manipulative materials that demonstrate fractions and even binomials and trinomials from algebra.

    In the face of competition from government schools, it is a challenge. I have learned that the competition isn't so much for students as it is for teachers. By using tax dollars, they can pay so much more, offer more benefits, and provide stability stemming from a legally-guaranteed funding sources. Meanwhile, the government schools are there for the purpose of creating cannon fodder, with its flag worship every morning and the forced admission of military recruiters under No Child Left Behind for as early as third grade. And when they do grab a hold of an effective pedagogy like Montessori, they pervert it by adding standardized testing and segregating by ages (e.g. two-year age groups rather than the three-year age groups prescribed by Montessori).

    By eliminating public education, and by reducing the morass of regulations for running a private school, the free market could decide how important math education really is, rather than hearing hot air about it from public officials and CEOs, or by listening to earnest mathematicians such as Paul Lockhart, the author of this white paper, attempt to influence curriculum, presumably in government schools. The century-long battle between phonetics and "whole word" in the area of language (and the resulting reading levels no matter what is done) should be evidence enough of the futility of this approach (to use an anlogy, which Lockhart seems to love).

    1. Re:More money in death by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      By eliminating public education, and by reducing the morass of regulations for running a private school, the free market could decide how important math education really is

      Not really, all you'd do is create a system whereby the wealthier people could afford education for their children, and all of the children of the rest of the people would be screwed.

      How, exactly, do you propose that all of those families who could never afford private school (let alone rent in some cases) educate their children?

      Eliminating all forms of public education sounds utterly absurd. Leaving it up to the "free market" to decide if math education is important or not is equally absurd.

      Cheers

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    2. Re:More money in death by michaelmalak · · Score: 1
      The U.S. was more literate prior to the advent of public education.

      In some respects, no education is better than government education. But practically speaking, charities and scholarships (both external and internal) will pick up the slack.

      There are thousands of people besides me who have signed the proclamation for the separation of school and state.

    3. Re:More money in death by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The U.S. was more literate prior to the advent of public education.

      Citation needed. If far fewer people received any education, how was literacy higher?

      But practically speaking, charities and scholarships (both external and internal) will pick up the slack.

      I find that hard to believe. Give it a few years of complete disaster, and people will be clamoring to have public education back. It simply wouldn't give coverage to everyone, only in places where charities and scholarships can be gotten from well-heeled individuals.

      You sound like Ayn Rand. A free market solution to this simply cannot get as much coverage as the government can. I'm not saying the current solution is ideal, but I think your solution is completely unworkable.

      There are thousands of people besides me who have signed the proclamation [schoolandstate.org] for the separation of school and state.

      You could get thousands of people to sign a petition against gravity if you wanted. That's like saying "100,000 people can't be wrong". At any given time, way more than 100,000 people are wrong on any given issue.

    4. Re:More money in death by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By eliminating public education, blah blah regulations blah blah blah private school, the free market could blah blah blah blah hot air about it from public officials and CEOs blah blah

      Ron Paul! The gold standard! Illegal Aliens! Multiculturalism! John fucking Gaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllllt~!!!!1111~!~one1

    5. Re:More money in death by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Oh, yeah - let's see your precious Montessori school when the classroom is loaded with disruptive inner-city kids. What? You mean the whole idea is to cherry-pick wealthy students? And I can't decide if you're a left-wing nutbag (military recruiter hatred) or a right-wing nutjob (blind faith in the market to solve every problem known to Man).

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    6. Re:More money in death by michaelmalak · · Score: 1
      The 501(c)(3) for scholarships is next on my list to do.

      You stated two false dichotomies. As any libertarian knows, it's not left (big government) vs. right (big business), but rather individual vs. collectivism. And it's not socialism vs. free market to solve "every problem", but rather socialism vs. free market to solve more problems better than the alternative.

  54. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · · Score: 1, Informative

    You must have attended a very very small school. Most US schools have different courses based on skill level. Your conclusions about the US school system are therefore wrong. They are merely conclusions about very small schools.

    Really? "Most US schools" have this? Maybe your school did, but my high school, which had over 1300 students in grades 10-12, most assuredly did not. Well, if your definition of "different" means "two", then mine did. My high school (that's "secondary school" for all you non-North Americans) offered one advanced level class in chemistry, math, English and Social Studies. Entry into those classes was restricted to the brighter students (I got in - lucky me). Then they had normal level classes in all those subjects that everyone else took. Granted, I graduated in the 1980s, but I don't know what the heck school you went to, but I tend to think that your experience is the atypical one here and not that of the guy who posted.

  55. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by CRCulver · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Huh? Getting into college isn't an extremely pressing/taxing/competitive ordeal?

    No. There's always some college that will take you, even if you got average grades (and below average, people probably aren't interested in college anyway). Sure, you might not get a scholarship and have to take out burdensome student loans, but when American culture now emphasizes that a college degree is for everyone, and universities are businesses after your money, it's a buyer's market.

  56. School Choice is part of the answer by sadler121 · · Score: 1

    All NCLB is, is an excuse to close down public schools in favor of private schools. What we should be pushing is not a greater centralization of our schools, but is to decentralize our schools further through the use of vouchers or tax credits to enable parents to CHOOSE where they send there kids. There is no reason why a child should be locked into failing schools based on geography.

    Of course, the NEA would resist that, they are the other part of the problem...

    1. Re:School Choice is part of the answer by LordKazan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      1) Yes NCLB is an excuse to close down public schools - it was designed as such, and they intentionally fabricated a study [exposed as a fraud 2 years later] to get congressional support

      2) Defunding them further with vouchers (most of which would be going to religious indoctrination centers that masquarade as schools) is not a solution

      3) "Failing schools based on geopgrahy" is a problem with two things
            a) How we fund schools [how about pool money state wide and dole out as needed instead of tying funding to their service areas land values.. that kidn of funding arraignment was obviously designed to serve only the rich neighbors]
            b) home lives in disadvantaged areas are more often than not are harmful to getting an education.

      The NEA would CORRECTLY resist #2. They would support repleaing NCLB and getting all schools funded better.

      Vouchers are not a solution, they're just a furtherance of stripping funding from public schools so that they fail.

      --
      If you cannot keep politics out of your moderation remove yourself from the Mod Lottery.. NOW!
    2. Re:School Choice is part of the answer by digsbo · · Score: 1

      Not quite. NCLB is an excuse to further federalize education and appear to be 'pro-education' for political purposes.

      Regarding vouchers: Parents who care about education should not be forced to send their kids to the same school where most parents do not. Vouchers help with that. Public schools enjoy an unfair monopoly on tuition gathering that puts private schools at a competitive disadvantage.

    3. Re:School Choice is part of the answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NCLB permits the students of 'failing' schools to transfer to 'passing' schools. So it's not a system for closing down public schools so much as it is a system of punishing the poor for being poor (and living in a poor neighborhood).

      A poor student in a poor neighborhood (whose local school will usually fail being situated in an area with relatively low property-tax revenues) won't be able to attend a private school anyway without a hand-out (presumably designed to send that tax revenue straight into a church; as most private schools are currently church operated). Instead the poor student will ride a bus longer and further into a rich neighborhood. The failing schools dry up and blow-away and the passing schools become saturated with the students from the failing schools.

      Here's the inflection point, these new concentrated 'rich-schools' then begin to fail themselves (the transfer students were bad at standardized tests for reasons out of the control of their old failing-schools) or in some cases a rich-school continues to score passing-grades (indicating the transfer students were bad at standard tests for reasons their old failing-school could have solved if they were rich-schools).

      Years from now all the rich-schools will fail once the students that are bad at standardized tests are sufficiently spread around and concentrated into the few remaining public schools. But, unless public school districts are abolished, there will always be some public schools, even if they are all at failing grades according to NCLB. At this point, mission accomplished: Poor students have no where to go but failing-schools (and thus remain poor), but rich students are forced (essentially) into private/profit schools (and go on to remain rich in exchange for some of their parents' wealth being transferred to the private-education industry).

      The bonus is, poor parents continue to pay (regressive) taxes (on necessities) to pay for failing schools, while the rich parents get to pay for both through taxes and additional tuition fees. It's a win-win for the directors and profiteers of wealth concentration!

      It's all so depressing. I guess I'm just trying to say that NCLB is just another facet to the stifling of class-mobility.

  57. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by LordKazan · · Score: 1

    I can vouch for that. my home town experimented with a "School of the Arts" system in one elementary school and one middle school - switching those schools 3 years after I was through them. So my senior year in HS we had these kids as freshmen. I was the student TA for the Earth Sciences teacher.

    My earth HS's earth sciences teacher was an AWESOME guy (in fact.. all the science teachers were) and were great with demonstrations, etc. All kinds of things that got most kids involved in sciences they previously considered boring. I mean our earth sciences teacher yearly took his class out to hunt for marine fossils in a spot where the task wasn't finding one, it was extracting them from the small cliff face without damaging them.

    anyway I'm off topic.

    He had a few students my senior year who were "School of the Arts" graduates. His tests were simple - 1/3 was "circle the answer", 1/3 was "short answer - one word?" (IE 'What is the name given to molten rock after it is erupted onto the surface'), 1/3 was "Short answer - one sentance".

    Several of these kids refused to do the second 2/3rds of the test.. but their parents yelled at the teacher when he failed them. I was in grading exams one day when they were yelling at them, I knew who's parents they were. I extracted their meat-head sons test from the pile, graded it (the 1/3 that was actually done), walked up to them and handed it to them. Then instructed them to kindly stop treating the best earth sciences teacher I've ever seen like he was an insect under their boots.

    --
    If you cannot keep politics out of your moderation remove yourself from the Mod Lottery.. NOW!
  58. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by kaiser423 · · Score: 1

    My large school got rid of all the courses based upon skill level shortly after I left because helicopter parents were too stressed out and causing too many administrative and political problems for the school when their children didn't qualify for the high skill level class. That has happened across a large number of schools in the US.

    Also, the US tracking starts actually tracking kids in like 10th and 11th grade. Great, they're tracked and get the benefits for two years...yippee!

  59. Math as art by sweetser · · Score: 1
    Just turn all your math into movie, and the crowds will follow (someday).

    Doug
    VisualPhysics.org

    --
    Working on new views of old physics at http://VisualPhysics.org
    1. Re:Math as art by thrawn_aj · · Score: 1

      Just turn all your math into movie, and the crowds will follow (someday).

      Doug VisualPhysics.org

      I browsed your website for about an hour. The visualizations, while pretty, seemed ... artificial. Or perhaps I just did not understand the purpose behind them? The explanations accompanying them seem to make what are quite simple subjects into needlessly complicated excursions into quaternions. Again, I am merely an experimentalist and have not played with quaternions in my infancy :) so suggestions on fruitfully using the website are welcome. To be honest, I felt like I was looking at figures and captions in a book but the text was nowhere to be found. Perhaps it's still under construction?

      I did find some of your ideas intriguing, but really - at the risk of sounding rude - I must say that the whole "ultra-conservative scientific establishment" rhetoric is a big turnoff to serious scientists who might otherwise be interested in your work. You wouldn't believe the sheer amount of spam most professors get (and even lowly grad students for that matter - I collect such things as a hobby :)) from geniuses who feel they have discovered the secrets of the universe. Again, from what I saw on the site, you are hardly in the same category, but you might as well have painted a big red sign on yourself warning the serous folks off :P. I do hope you take my criticism in the spirit in which it was offered - constructively. I don't know what the whole string theory community is like, but where I work, you bring up ideas, prove them or verify them experimentally, and become rich and famous :). Of course it ain't perfect - there's a$$holes everywhere.

      Regardless, this brings me back to your original point - visualizing math may make it more popular. Quite true, but it has to be done right. One of the few successful renditions of this theme has to be Tristan Needham's Visual Complex Analysis. You might enjoy that book.

    2. Re:Math as art by thrawn_aj · · Score: 1

      Oops, just saw your homepage. Makes things somewhat clear.

    3. Re:Math as art by sweetser · · Score: 1
      Hello:

      Thanks for spending about an hour at the site :-) No one has played analytically with animations since infancy, so these images are odd. I find I have to spend 10 minutes with people explaining the 4D wire cube, that the vertices are traveling in time.

      I hope that the rhetoric was limited to the "slams" page. One motivator in physics is putting another serious camp down. The one pathologically rude person I know promotes work on strings. As long as the harsh critiques are about areas of study and not people, I will let them remain on the slams page. When looking at other sections of the site, I hope to make sure it stays technical. Some of that tone may get into the forums, but that might be unavoidable. I will be more aware of that now.

      Professors are absurdly busy. The only ones I do email from time to time are folks I have chatted with in person (1-2/year, rarely get replies, don't expect them either). I get the fringe emails too, and always look into the work. My first screen is to see if it has any math. Half do not have any. The second screen is to see if they talk about actions, Hamiltonians, or Lagrangians. None has passed the second test.

      There was a web site a while ago that had collected a list of fringe sites, including the fellow who claims TIME IS MASS, always in capital letters. My site was in a special section of odd-and-not-quite-fringe (I forget how he phrased it, or the URL for that matter).

      One dream I have is going through Needham's book and animating everything he writes about. That would be quite the mountain time, and I can only do this work after the 9-5 job and family effort are done and some lunch time. Those are my time constraints.

      After an hour on VisualPhysics, and some time on quaternions.com, you get a sense of what I am working on. That is too much to reasonably ask from technical people. I don't know how to solve the social riddle - "I'm the one fringe guy that is not utterly-useless fringe" - so I don't worry too much about it. All I can do is make more content. My current focus is on simple harmonic oscillators. Once again the result was not what I expected, but so it goes.

      Again, thanks for your time and effort.
      Doug, sweetser@alum.mit.edu

      --
      Working on new views of old physics at http://VisualPhysics.org
  60. Math may be an art, but teaching math is not. by NotPeteMcCabe · · Score: 1
    Math may be an art, but a math teacher is not a mathematician. A math teacher is a teacher, and their expertise in math is second to their expertise in teaching. I would much rather my kids learn math from an expert teacher who knows only the math he or she is teaching than from a world-class mathematician with no knowledge of teaching.

    This is the biggest misunderstanding most people have of teaching. The general view seems to be that if you know your subject, you're qualified to be a teacher. Nothing could be further from the truth. The most important qualification a teacher has is the ability to relate to their students; the relationship between student and teacher is the single most important factor in how much a student gets our of a class. Second is the teacher's ability to encourage students to do the work, since people only learn by doing. Third is the ability to design a series of activities that will, if give students the practice they need to learn what they're supposed to learn.

    None of this presupposes a knowledge of the subject beyond what's being taught. Obviously, the more you know about the subject, the better. But there are half a dozen more important things.

    1. Re:Math may be an art, but teaching math is not. by louiswins · · Score: 1

      The point that I got from the paper wasn't that teachers aren't mathematicians, it was that they actually think the subject is something completely different from what it truly is (or what Lockhart thinks it is, anyway, and I tend to agree). Thus instead of teaching the ideas and thought processes that are core to mathematical understanding, but perhaps saying "I don't know" every so often - which is not a bad thing - we have teachers actively stifling creativity in favor of rote memorization and regurgitation.

  61. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by 0racle · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They teach you how to count in kindergarten, they even show you with blocks what 1 means, what 2 is and what not.

    What your holding as a genius way to do things is no different then Roman numerals. It gets extremely unwieldily for anything other then simple addition and subtraction or basic counting, and they aren't any less arbitrary in their symbolism then Arabic numerals are.

    --
    "I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
  62. Excellent article by module0000 · · Score: 1

    I thought the summary was over-the-top, but after the reading the article I agree. The guy has a "artful" way with words....about math. I imagine that pretty rare. I enjoyed reading it. Suppose I never knew how much of a math guy I really was.

    --
    Trackball users will be first against the wall.
  63. Dummy's books by zymano · · Score: 1

    Are excellent for newbies. Well written with good examples and graphics.

  64. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by cptdondo · · Score: 1

    When I was studying computer science I had a horrible time understanding recursion. Now understand that this was a long time ago, and structured programming was just beginning to be developed, so recursion was something new, both conceptually and technically.

    But a big problem was the way it was presented. Basically we were thrown into a world of stacks, heaps, pointers, and so on, without a single word of why recursion was useful, and without any sort of introduction to recursion.

    Years later, when I taught CS, I would take my students outside, have them pull a leaf off the tree, and trace the veins. We'd talk about the self-replicating nature of the structure of the veins in the leaf, at smaller and smaller scales, and finally stopping at some point.

    Once my students understood this self-replicating nature of nature, we'd start implementing it in the classroom on a computer. And things like recursion, binary trees, and traversal became trivial.

    It's all about tying real world observations to the science you're doing.

  65. Actually, I'm surprised by idontgno · · Score: 1

    no one has cited this yet. This particular comic strip is the "smug" side of the mathematician mindset, whereas the essay cited in TFA is the "angry" side.

    --
    Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
  66. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You must have attended a very very small school. Most US schools have different courses based on skill level. Your conclusions about the US school system are therefore wrong. They are merely conclusions about very small schools.

    Are there honestly any US high schools that teach beyond calculus? No curricula that I know of goes beyond the contents of AP Calculus BC in high school. That's single variable differential and integral calculus, with coverage of series/sequences, and some vectors.

    I would very much like to hear of any US high school which teaches linear algebra.

  67. Its not rocket science... by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    oh wait...

  68. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by Kratisto · · Score: 1

    Your conclusions are wrong on the grounds that "Anecdote, therefore all-encompassing statement" is a horrible argument. My school in North Carolina had "English" and "Honor's English", and then once you got to junior and senior classes "AP English" (and don't get be started on the AP board...).

    --
    Conscience is the inner voice which warns us that someone may be looking.
  69. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by blahplusplus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Dude, now you're approaching xenophobia. Have you looked at the state of mathematics in American universities? A conspicuous amount of highly original researchers are the product of foreign educational systems. They aren't doomed to being tech support monkeys like you insinuate."

    I don't know how the heck you got that out of my statement. I'm not saying these people are not smart, I'm not saying they are not mathematical prodigies, but they have all learned math in a particular way, many mathematicians don't even realize it because their mind is *naturally suited* to the symbolic form in which the were taught.

    Drilling kids with a structure of math when they have no idea how to relate it to their own natural knowledge limits their ability to understand what 'math' is. Most people have never really looked into what mathematics is, where it comes from, how it is derived. I've got books I and articles I've slogged through doing my own research in my spare time and I've realized how disconnected and arbitrary how math is structured in our society really is, and I'm not discounting these peoples contributions to society.

    I'm telling you math is much more rich then what most people have even begun to think about*, yes even the PHD's.

    I'm talking about how mathematics is *structured* how it is represented.

    I remember taking "gifted" tests in school that structured mathematical principles using colored shapes/empty shapes for patterns and principles.

    Kids need a way to *connect* what they see as meaningless symbols and see they are *derived* from observations in the world, mathematics *began* as a way for someone to take their observations and format them in a systematic way, but there are many ways to do this and the way something is presented matters A LOT.

    I wish I could find the article at about how someone built a physical model as a metaphor of mathematical principles that explained the principles better then the equations and graphics they had made.

    Either way there are better ways to communicate mathematical principles and ideas then has been traditionally been taught in societies institutions because I have spent a heck of a lot of time researching this on my own time. As expected on slashdot I would meet a lot of resistance for people who are without my lifetime of experiences that I have yet to congeal into a work of origina lresearch.

  70. A teachers take by fishthegeek · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I am a teacher, albeit not a a math teacher but teaching in general has a lot of problems in the U.S. The largest problem that I see in America is that we have a system of education that is largely based on talent. We recognize it, reward it, and care for it like a price flower. Effort on the other hand is culturally unappreciated and that cultural attitude is reflected in education. The talented students have the opportunity to shine, and they always have.

    Would our culture demand effort from our students instead of recognizing talent we'd be much further along.

    I'm not suggesting that talent should go un-nurtured but, at least from an educators point of view, the effort of the students should be the focus of rewards.

    --
    load "$",8,1
    1. Re:A teachers take by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      We recognize it, reward it, and care for it like a price flower.

      Maybe you, as a teacher, should learn the difference between "price" and "prized".

      the effort of the students should be the focus of rewards

      What, "you tried hard but got everything wrong, here's an A anyway"??

      Jeebus. The real world doesn't operate anything like that.

      Not failing kids who should have failed is the problem.

    2. Re:A teachers take by pavera · · Score: 1

      recognizing effort is ok, I suppose... But as a talented and rather bright student I always found that completely insidious and hurtful to my education.

      IE, I don't know how many advanced and AP classes I took where the other kids in the class were there because they "tried really hard" and so the teachers let them in... Well guess what? That just slowed down my education, cause now the advanced teacher is having to babysit, review, and in general spend all of the time in the class helping these remedial math students understand basic algebra before we can actually get into calculus.

      Or the AP Chemistry class I had where a total of 2 (and yes I was one of them) (OUT OF 35) passed the AP test, because 33 of the 35 kids could barely handle algebra and they didn't have even a basic understanding of molecules, atoms, or anything else.

      This is what rewarding effort gets you, it gets you a bunch of idiots who are good at hard work, not people that are actually smart, or able to learn.

    3. Re:A teachers take by fishthegeek · · Score: 1

      You're talented, and I strongly suspect that you turned out okay. Isn't it reasonable to assume that your talent would have existed anyway?

      I guess I should have been clearer. I'm not saying that effort should be rewarded for its own sake. Effort should be demanded, and then rewarded.

      I do take exception to your lumping idiots and people that are good at hard work. Where do you think other countries get their high math scores? Do you honestly think that they have a gene pool that only supports I.Q.s above 130? They work hard. Not everyone is talented but everyone is expected to work hard and they are getting results.

      Look, to someone sufficiently talented anything appears to be easy. The truth is for the 98% of the teenagers I teach they actually struggle with basic content in some areas and may excel in a few too. I'm a very results focused teacher. If my student isn't getting it the answer isn't to dumb down the class or kick them out, the only acceptable answer is to make the work harder until they do get it. The people that are born smart will learn regardless of how many people around them don't find it as easy. Your post just makes you sound arrogant.

      --
      load "$",8,1
    4. Re:A teachers take by LurkerXD · · Score: 1

      That's all well in good but...

      I had a few teachers do the "reward effort" thing. In response, instead of actually putting a lot more effort in, my fellow students and I found it was much more efficient to simply fake it and simply make it look like we had put lots of "effort" into our assignments, even when we had it.

      Furthermore, even if we students did honestly work harder as we should, that doesn't necessarily mean we are learning more. Do you seriously expect a teacher to be like..."Oh, you got all your problems wrong and didn't show your work, and clearly still have no grasp of what you're doing, but you studied really hard, so I should give you an A"? No.

      I do agree that talent is a bit over-rated; I have a vague feeling I was a victim of this sort of over-nuturing in my younger years. Yes I say victim, because I was lucky enough to learn math concepts with little effort, and of course my teachers tended to jump up and down over what a smart little child I was. However what this did do was teach the poor habits you find so reprehensible. I learned that things were supposed to come easy, and that I wasn't supposed to have to work hard to learn stuff. Now while I did shake that gross mis-conception toward the end of high school (just in time for college thank god), there is a distinct possibility others didn't.

      To me its sounding like rewards can't be a function of a single variable; you can't pass out rewards for just effort or just talent. Ideally you could reward students for actually learning things, but given that determining whether a student is learning so is so difficult, I'm not holding my breath.

    5. Re:A teachers take by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "and care for it like a price flower."

      A for effort then.

      Yes, I do believe you're a teacher in the US. I also think you need to brush up on your vocabulary. I don't think "talent" means what you think it means, because as far as I've been able to determine most US schools very much do not base anything on talent. Except the football team.

    6. Re:A teachers take by khallow · · Score: 1

      I don't see a lot of reward in K-12 education for either talent or effort. In my case, I got lucky in that I had enough talent that I didn't need effort. Don't get me wrong. My lack of experience with effort has hindered me in numerous places. But in my view, my K-12 schools were not the place to teach effort solely because the work was for most activities except the few subjects I cared about so dull and pointless. I don't see, for example, that more school work of the sort I was exposed to would be better for me than my doodling in class, my voracious reading, or even my D&D playing. The time might have been spent in fantasizing and entertainment, but it was in my view productively spent.

    7. Re:A teachers take by Borg+Bucolic · · Score: 1

      I am a teacher, albeit not a a math teacher but teaching in general has a lot of problems in the U.S.

      I am a teacher of mathematics (high school), all the problems I see come from outside the classroom, not in it.

    8. Re:A teachers take by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do take exception to your lumping idiots and people that are good at hard work. Where do you think other countries get their high math scores? Do you honestly think that they have a gene pool that only supports I.Q.s above 130? They work hard. Not everyone is talented but everyone is expected to work hard and they are getting results.

      I think they get them by only testing those students that have a proclivity for mathematics, and shunting the slower ones off into vocational programs. I don't think it has anything to do with gene pools. And I'm sure they all work hard, just some of them work hard in a factory, and others work hard at making the statistics look good - and they go on to higher education without having been held back by the slower learners. But you go right on ignoring the talented students - that works in my favor for a while yet, keeping the competition lower for jobs in engineering and science. Of course, I may have to move somewhere else later in life to escape your students.

      And with respect to your signature, I support parents firing teachers if the teachers are failing to provide education and encouragement to talented students. I've always supported firing parents. I also support paying good teachers more.

    9. Re:A teachers take by fishthegeek · · Score: 1

      I swear no one actually read what I wrote. Effort shouldn't be rewarded. It should be demanded. The results of successful effort should be rewarded.

      --
      load "$",8,1
  71. Math is communication by cowdung · · Score: 1

    The problem with math is that it is taught with no reward. Imagine if we studied the formulas of physics w/o ever hearing about the cool stuff like General Relativity, the Uncertanty Principle, etc.. Understanding those interesting paradoxes is what makes physics interesting. Now look at math. How many people know that math can limit the very scope of a scientific theorem (as expressed in a piece of paper), or the odd patterns of primes, or that there is knowledge in the universe that cannot be summarized, etc.. Nobody ever gets to see the cool stuff.. they are just burried under the mechanics.

    I believe school should teach people to communicate effectively. Initially this implies imprecise communication like English and Spanish, reading and writing.

    But later as we try to describe things more fully we may employ the language of math. For example, lets take a table and see how we can draw it, we can measure it and precisely define its attributes. In fact we can do so so precisely that we can end up telling how heavy it will be, how much room it will take, and how much it will cost.

    As school advances and the need to describe things increases we can use math to describe chemical and biological proceses, physical processes, and sociological processes.

    In fact, as people advance in their education they tend to need math to precisely describe what happened, their theories of what will happen, etc..

    In this manner, students can enjoy the benefits of math in all fields as they advance in its study.

    I know so many people that have studied Differential Equations or even basic Algebra and have no idea how that could ever be useful to them.

  72. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by jandrese · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As a CS student I had to take a lot of math. One thing that always struck me is that a lot of math is a lot like programming (this is not a coincidence) except that you're only allowed to use single letter (greek!) variable and function names.

    A lot of math reads like extremely bad Perl programs too, with tons of functionality on every line and no documentation except for a giant paragraph at the top written by someone who is apparently from Mars.

    On the other hand, a lot of math is just pattern recognition. Realizing when you need to use one transform over another is a fundamental part of mathematics. Maybe the language simplifies this task somehow? I'm not sure. It always seemed to obscure it more than anything else to me.

    --

    I read the internet for the articles.
  73. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  74. Assuming you could "fix the teachers"... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Assuming you could fix the teachers, you could always combine math and science more closely. After all, mathematics started as an attempt to quantify and understand the world through a more precise language and physics, chemistry, biology, economics etc. all make more sense when explained mathematically.

    Since we're dreaming here, math at home could also help the process too. After all, no one needs to learn to speak by the time they hit kindergarten. Parents can really help there kids by explaining how they use math in their jobs.

    On a side note, I took my Ph.D. in Ops. Research (which lived in Engineering at my university) and my masters in math, so my opinion is colored by too much university training. Also, I hated math until I started to teach myself out of old text books around 6th grade. Then it got much better. It didn't hurt that my dad was an engineer; hence the "math at home" comment.

  75. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by Nakor+BlueRider · · Score: 1

    so you want to teach math using base-1 ... that's... insane.

    Maybe he works in the school supplies industry?

  76. There are _lots_ of people by igomaniac · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... with the ability, knowledge and inclination. The real problem is that they can all make twice or more money by doing some other line of work. This is a matter of paying what is necessary to compete with the other possibilities open to mathematically able, knowledgeable and inclined people.

    --

    The interactive way to Go -- http://www.playgo.to/iwtg/en/
    1. Re:There are _lots_ of people by Shihar · · Score: 1

      Pay has a lot less to do with it than you think. Marginal pay might influence the number of people who want to be full time life time teachers, but it as almost no influence on people who teach for the joy of teaching. I don't know about you, but all of my best profs in high school were once that worked a long career, decided that they were basically ready to retire, and decided to 'give back' by teaching. My best profs used their teaching salary to toss at the IRS to pay for the mount of money that they were sitting on. My worst teachers were all life long teachers that saw the job as a pay check and something they have to ride out until retirement.

      Personally, I think we could do with FEWER life long professional teachers. I would like to see a system that encourages experienced individuals approaching retirement to come out and teach for a few years before retiring for good. Having an experienced engineer or physicist as a physics or math teacher makes a world of difference.

      That isn't to imply that life long teachers are bad, just that I don't think that they are as valuable, especially in high school, when compared to someone who has spent their life doing rather than teaching. The people who spent their life 'doing' rather than 'teaching' come to the game with fresh energy, practical application of what they are teaching, and don't see what they are doing as 'work' they need to keep doing until they reach some magic retirement age and can get the fuck out.

      I have had some great life teachers, but the vast majority of them were either young and still full of energy, or professionals when were teaching for the fun of it after having lived a life in academia/industry. On the other hand, I struggle to think of one 'good' teacher I had who was a life long teacher near retirement age.

    2. Re:There are _lots_ of people by $pace6host · · Score: 1

      I have had some great life teachers, but the vast majority of them were either young and still full of energy, or professionals when were teaching for the fun of it after having lived a life in academia/industry. On the other hand, I struggle to think of one 'good' teacher I had who was a life long teacher near retirement age.

      Although in general, my experience was like yours, I'm pretty sure that two of the best teachers I had were life long teachers near retirement age. One was a math teacher. He asked us questions, sometimes things that sounded basic and simple, and gave us the chance to come up with answers - then he questioned our answers and pushed us to understand deeper. He loved the subject, and it showed. So, they do exist, though I can't say they were common.

  77. Story Familiar - Where are the dragons? by Dareth · · Score: 1

    I remember this story, only it had dragons, miniature and large, in it as well.

    --

    I only look human.
    My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
  78. Old habits die hard by SloppyElvis · · Score: 1

    Excellent argument on the frustrating habits of culture... and well written too.

    You could substitute nearly any area of study into this analysis, and find a great deal of truth in the result, and in this, The Lamenting Mathematician has uncovered a very subtle and elegant habit of culture. The fact is that there are a great many musical technicians, incapable of creating the art of music, just as there are a great many mathematical technicians, who will never contribute to The Masterpiece. Software, Politics, History, Leadership... All have their share of artists and technicians alike. The key element is that the cultural perception of mathematics is that there is no art; that it is but a technical discipline.

    The truth is that all disciplines are both artistic and technical in nature, and that society would do well to discover this and promote this duality through education.

    The first advanced math course I took in college consisted entirely of proofs and abstract discoveries such as described in the article, and it was eye-opening. The clever approaches and solutions discussed gave that intuitive appreciation... no less artful than capturing a feeling with a photograph or instilling instant familiarity with a speech.

    1. Re:Old habits die hard by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      The truth is that all disciplines are both artistic and technical in nature, and that society would do well to discover this and promote this duality through education.
      Very well put. Although proofs are more like an art or even a game (how to get from A to B in the most elegant fashion while following a strictly formalized set of rules), much of math does require a lot of groundwork in establishing a common language for the communication of ideas. Confusing the necessary common structure for expressing ideas is like confusing the Oxford English Dictionary with the collected works of Shakespeare, but that doesn't change the fact that wrote learning of much of the contents of the OED is still necessary to fully appreciate the genius of Shakespeare. Every specialized field develops it's own jargon. K-12 education specializes in teaching the jargon of math. Finally, I remember actually having to do geometry proofs in high school, and I hated it with a passion, precisely because it was so open-ended. It required intuitive leaps and lots of back-tracking to prove any non-trivial theorems, and there was no one correct way of doing it. Art it was, but since we weren't proving anything that wasn't proved 3000 years ago, it was more akin to copying an ancient sculpture by iterative guesswork than it was to the creation of a unique new artwork.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
  79. MOD PARENT UP by PRMan · · Score: 1

    This is exactly what should be done. (Wish I had Mod Points today).

    --
    Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
  80. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by gbarules2999 · · Score: 1

    Honor classes are pretty widespread nowadays, and offered to whoever wants to get in.

  81. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You must not be in the Los Angeles Unified School District where there seems to be less willingness on the part of Admins. to seperate kids according to their abilities. Pisses off the parents of the dumb kids. Can't have that happen.

  82. Re:There are 10 kinds of people......... by louiswins · · Score: 1

    I prefer: There are 01 types of people in the world - those who know what 'little-endian' means and those who don't.

  83. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by Joey+Vegetables · · Score: 1

    It is sad, and the state the US educational system is currently in will not allow it to compete in the global market, it will not allow it to be innovate and provide new ideas, but what it will provide is people who are like sheep and are more than willing to follow the crowd and just do it because everyone does. These people will be easy to govern and control since they won't ask questions and least of all will they rebel and fight for their beliefs. In other words, the US education system as it currently stands is making zombies.

    I am sorry to say, but this is very much by design. The system was designed to by the powerful to perpetuate their own interests, not those of children. It is designed not to teach children how to think, but to prevent them, insofar as possible, from ever doing so, or even realizing that they can. After all, the easiest way to enslave people is to keep them so ignorant that they don't even realize that they are slaves. And, sad to say, that is exactly what they have done. It is probably among the greatest crimes of all of human history.

  84. Depends on what you mean by fundamentalists by weston · · Score: 2, Informative

    and most of them can be traced to certain groups (*cough*fundamentalists*cough*) waging a 30 year war on public education

    Depends on what you mean by fundamentalists. Honestly, I have my doubts you can trace all our problems back to creationists and prudes. You'd have to get the market fundamentalists, the "one curriculum to bind them all" fundamentalists, the Fabians, the Rothschilds, the Rockafellers, and probably more in there to get a really good idea of why we've ended up so mixed up.

    That said: I got a fantastic high school education. I learned quite a bit and could have gotten a lot more out of it if I'd had the inclination.

    1. Re:Depends on what you mean by fundamentalists by LordKazan · · Score: 1

      you are correct in that it is unfair to pin it ALL on the fundamentalist christians, it is also partially the fault of their close allies the "private industry does everything better than government!" (despite evidence to the contrary on education and other subjects)

      --
      If you cannot keep politics out of your moderation remove yourself from the Mod Lottery.. NOW!
  85. Proofs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    TFA doesn't make any sense unless you start with a spherical educational system...

  86. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    People, people, people. If there's one thing outsourcing has taught us in the United States is that we don't have to invest in educating our children. We can always recruit the "best and the brightest" from around the world. They want to come to this country, right? Let the other countries do the heavy lifting and we'll all get jobs waiting tables using government paid health care. Listen to corporate America. Don't raise taxes on the idle rich, er, most productive segment of our country just to educate our children. We have foreign cars to buy. Professional sports stadiums to build (someone say something about bread and circuses?).

    The sad part about being outclassed by other countries isn't that we can't afford to educate our children, it's that we simply refuse to do it. The culture in the U.S.A. simply doesn't value education or it's children anymore.

  87. A false hope. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    While there may be great modern artists, there is no rigor in modern art and great art is no longer appreciated. Wishing mathematics could enrich society is nice but misguided. There are reasons our education is the way it is, and although lamentable, it cannot be fundamentally changed without culture experiencing a true rebirth. Not likely.

  88. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

    No you don't get it, it was just to demonstrate there are many ways of looking at things.

  89. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by Skadet · · Score: 1

    I lol because you're making the same type of generalization that you're looking down your nose upon.

  90. Outsider's perspective by levicivita · · Score: 1

    Disclaimer: I am not familiar with the American High School system, since I first came to the US to attend an Ivy League school. I may sound critical, but please remember, I love being in America, and I am merely pointing out what I came to realize over the years.

    I found that, even in an extremely prestigious American college, the mathematics taught in freshman and sophomore courses was at a similar level to what was broadly taught in the public high school system back in Europe where I came from, as early as 9th grade. I found most my American's colleagues math knowledge to be largely absent, but more importantly, many of them who had not entirely abandoned mathematics were nonetheless not even be aware of what they did not know .

    My impression of why they got to be in this state had to do with the teaching method. The mathematics textbooks used in 'mainstream' courses even in my $45k/year college (i.e. over 20 students in attendance) are useless because they adopt a teaching style entirely devoid of insight and entirely too focused on mindless calculations. I suspect similar methods / textbooks are employed in high school. I found, over time, that I can recognize such a book right away, because they tend to be filled with examples with specific numbers. It doesn't matter if the topic is linear algebra, calculus, multivariate calculus, differential equations, Fourier analyis, they manage to insert 'exercises' with 'insight-building' arbitrary values, e.g. 'integrate 12.51 x^3 / (2.98 x + 1) from 0.1 to 2.31.'

    There's of course nothing wrong with practicing integration (or other) techniques, and in fact back home we've all had to spend a massive amount of time doing just that. There's nothing wrong to being able to quickly and correctly do algebra, with large natural numbers or even arbitrary rational numbers - but that is something that is ingrained early on to the point where it doesn't need revisiting. In fact I would argue I am faster, more accurate, and can perform more complicated algebra, although the last time I was asked to work on it was in 5th grade. By the time you make it to calculus and beyond there's no need to test whether you can evaluate a function at specific values of its parameters (if you cannot do that, you would have failed a long time ago), so looking at the integral of x^3 / (a x + b) is allowing you to focus on the essence of the problem at hand, and not on mindless algebra. (Again, the algebra is mindless because you are supposed to know how to do it by the time you're 10, not because you can outsource it to a calculator or India.) Having examples with actual values is hardly the worst flaw, but it is strongly indicative of the mindset of the author and the teaching method, which I would characterize succinctly as 'lacking insight'. I would not have been able to understand and learn math had I only been exposed to such methods.

    Math is a combination of art and hard labor, and both components are important. Good professors are absolutely essential, more important than even good textbooks. In fact all the good textbooks have already been written, many of them decades and sometimes 100+ years ago, it's just a matter of knowing about them and using them.

    1. Re:Outsider's perspective by levicivita · · Score: 1

      And of course, it goes without saying that many / most graduate courses in most areas of study are absolutely spectacular, and one would be hard pressed to find anything comparable elsewhere in the world. As such, the most talented students can chart their own path through the mire (especially if they have an accomplished academic as a close family member), and once they make it to college (if they've received the right guidance along the way), they're in a great spot. But the low % of American science faculty is in part due to the significant handicap American kids have coming up through the weak and amorphous pre-college educational system.

  91. Challenge Accepted by dcollins · · Score: 1

    Rant time. From the original post: "I defy you to read and find a single sentence that isn't permeated, suffused, soaked, and encrusted with truth."

    Challenge accepted, for example, from the article:

    "The area of a triangle is equal to one-half its base times its height." Students are asked tomemorize this formula and then "apply" it over and over in the "exercises." Gone is the thrill, the joy, even the pain and frustration of the creative act. There is not even a problem anymore. The question has been asked and answered at the same time--there is nothing left for the student to do."

    Item (1) I have an MA in math and teach at a community college in NYC (previously Boston; algebra, trigonometry, statistics, etc.) (2) As an academic, when you start teaching, you are in for a rude shock. All throughout school, I was engaged, getting "A"'s almost all the time, and considered a "B" to be a signal of failure. The shock is to discover that the majority of people in most classes (including, unknown to you, all of your prior classmates) are unengaged, and are more-or-less comfortable with doing C/D/F work. (3) The problem discussed here (exercising area of a triangle) is, yes, trivial to someone who "gets it". However, it is very difficult to the majority of community college students that I see. For students who fundamentally can't grasp the concept of a variable, repeating algebra for years and years, and who can't "get" the idea of substitution, it's possibly overwhelmingly difficult.

    Yes, to you and me, "there is nothing left for the student to do", I agree fully. But what I've learned since starting as a teacher is that the exercises are an ongoing attempt to prove mastery of the "substitution" concept, and it's actually an enormous struggle for most people who aren't posting on Slashdot.

    I've learned that I can hand out a complete "practice test" in advance of an exam (passingly similar to this proposed exercise), and give an exact duplicate of that test in the next class, with only the numbers changed, and still have the majority of a class fail the test.

    Now, that's not all I do, but I do include examples of this just to check my own sanity all the time. What I also do now is to always include one or two "concept questions" requiring actual analysis of ideas, and the level of frustration and aggravation from the students for those is far, far more enormous. Frequently people just stop trying those by the end of a semester, leaving them blank, and are happy to walk away with a "B" or "C" from the rest of their tests.

    In summary: I now consider my #1 job in all my classes to be an effort to make students comfortable with abstraction. Give me or you a formula and then, indeed, "there is nothing left... to do". But for most students, whose brains fundamentally cannot abstract enough to grasp substitution, there is an enormous skyscraper-sized obstacle still standing in front of them. That is in fact the fundamental goal of most math classes for most students, and they certainly can't do creative exploration or problem-solving until they at least "get" that, and are able to express patterns coherently when they see them.

    Unlike mathematicians like these, my claim is that mathematics is not art; it is a desperate battle. For your consideration, the AngryMath Manifesto: http://angrymath.blogspot.com/2009/01/angrymath-manifesto.html

    --
    We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
    1. Re:Challenge Accepted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think maybe Lockhart hasn't been to a high school art or music class lately either.

      Does anybody go to a (public) school where band is considered "cool" ?
      Or where they just give you a trumpet and tell you to play around with how it sounds?
      No. They teach you how to make a sound on the mouthpiece, then thrust you right into clefs, finger positions and note lengths, just like math.

      Math in school doesn't suck because it's being taught wrong, it sucks because it's IN SCHOOL.
      Nobody wants to be there, regardless of how fun the material is.
      I actually had a very fun Geometry teacher who did vary a lot from the basics and tried to make it more fun, but guess what... the class still sucked!

      Art and music are treated more casually in school because rarely do people find careers that are based on foundations of art and music.
      Basic algebra, trig, and calculus are required for just about any technical degree and job, and you can't ask a college kid just to think about how carbon dating might work for fun.
      They need to know calculus.
      And if someone has to design a truss, they probably need trig.
      And if someone has to determine if their language is turing compliant (God knows why) they probably need algebra.
      And if you want a job at Google, you probably need some applied math too.

      The Mozarts of math won't be ruined by standardized curriculum in high school, they'll probably find it in a graduate course or working as a patent clerk somewhere.

  92. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

    Yes you understand, many posters can't seem to grasp what I'm getting at.

  93. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

    Yes, and the Mayan use of a horizontal bar for "5" hides the fact that it's actually FIVE 1's. The only numeral system that doesn't use some sort of compression is one which has only one symbol (perhaps a second just for zero), and every number is shown with that number of that symbol. Thus, one dot for "1", three dots for "3", 10 dots for "10", 1000000 dots for "1000000", etc. Obviously, this isn't a very good system unless you're dealing with quantities 10, so humans developed shorthand systems. There's simple ones like the Mayan and Roman systems ("I", "III", "V", etc.), and then there's more efficient ones like the Arabic-numeral system we have now. The numerals we use now might be harder to grasp for a 5-year-old just learning math, but are far more efficient for someone familiar with math needing to do more complex operations than just 3+8=11.

    Part of being intelligent is being able to understand abstract concepts, so unless you're an idiot, using "3" to represent three instead of needing to see three separate dots or bars or whatever shouldn't be difficult. If you ever hope to progress to using exponentiation, sines, cosines, integration, differential equations, vectors, curls, dot products, etc., then the symbol for 3 better not be a problem for you.

  94. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by lithis · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If you read the Wikipedia article on Maya numerals, linked to above, you will see that it is not like Roman numerals. It is, in fact, a base-twenty positional system that happens to have logical symbols for its digits (zero notwithstanding).

  95. Why should the excel? by Shivetya · · Score: 1

    when there are so many people out there claiming that failure isn't their fault. Let alone a government which essentially pats them on the back and tells them that the government will make it all right, the government will take care of them, the government will take money from other, more successful people, and give it to them?

    When you have schools which decry any form of testing or proof of ability? When schools and the unions fight tooth and nail to ignore or subvert proof of the schools upholding their education ability?

    When you can pass kids because they tried... because "trying" is so easy to prove.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
  96. Single Best Fix: Introducing Discrete Mathematics by reporter · · Score: 2, Interesting
    The mathematics education in K-12 in the USA typically includes the following sequence.

    0. arithmetic

    1. algebra I

    2. geometry

    3. algebra II

    4. trigonometry

    5. elementary analysis (includes some probability and statistics)

    6. calculus

    The above mathematics sequence is typically plug-and-chug: plug some numbers into some formulas and produce a result. No thinking is required.

    What is sorely needed is a course in discrete mathematics between geometry and algebra II. Discrete mathematics teaches the most fundamental mathematical concept: methods of reasoning about mathematics. Not surprisingly, discrete mathematics includes plenty of proofs.

    Discrete mathematics is not only a foundation of math but is a foundation of computer science. All the important ideas in data structures and finite automata require an understanding of discrete mathematics.

  97. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by gknoy · · Score: 1

    HIGH SCHOOLS (and some junion high ones) tend to have various levels of math courses. However, in grades 1-6 (and somewhat 7-8), there's really only one math course for everyone. SOME very few kids are allowed to take the next-grade-up's math course (my best friend was one, 'twas how I met him), but for the most part, nearly all third graders (at a school) are studying the same thing, a nearly all sixth graders are studying the same thing.

    The trouble comes when, in your fifth or sixth grade class, the teacher is going over (yet again) how to do long division or multiplication with one more digit than the previous year. The students who Don't Get It still don't get it, and are frustrated. The smart kids are bored stiff because it's months of crap that they learned two years ago, and thus they either screw off, are disruptive, or (some few) are lucky enough to have teachers who let them go out in the hall and doodle or read or work on homework while the rest of the class covers Yet More Long Division.

    I learned how to multiply and divide in third grade. In fourth, we did it a little bit more, with two and three digit numbers... that might be when we were introduced to long division. We then repeated that for two more years, with the digits increasing. More rote-work, rather than finding interesting ways to USE the math. I realize that practice is important, but there are better ways than "OK, 50 more problems, this time with 4 digit divisors". I was fortunate to have compassionate teachers that let me play Oregon Trail in the hall. ;)

  98. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

    Yes but you're missing the point by quite a lot: Mayan's used geometric distinct shapes directly for a reason.

    For instance if I take a cirlce and half a circle, that can be expressed as 1.5.

    For instance in the stock market, companies often do stock splits to keep their stocks "cheap"

    Google is $410 and something dollars at the moment.

    If you buy a stock at say 410, and it goes to 440, and you buy a stock that's 4.10 and it goes to 4.40 its the same difference but many people don't intuitively grasp this (hence why some companies do stock splits to give the perception of "cheap")

    Now say you express 400 as a single circle (base 400) and the change was expressed as a fraction of a circle, and did the same for the other stock cheaper stock (base 4)

    Base 400 and base 4 have a relationship that can be communicated more clearly and concisely using visual figures and representation.

    Now I know this is a simple model but I'm saying as you go up the mathematical pole their's way to take complexity and simplify it like this that hasn't been realized so many students get lost in symbolic jaron that seemingly has no meaning.

    Also you and interpret the entire number system as merely distinctions in surfaces,

    For instance there's a direct relationship between our ability to detect differences in objects in reality and mathematics itself, math is merely a codification of our natural way of thinking

  99. Speaking of hot mathematicians by geekoid · · Score: 4, Informative

    http://www.danicamckellar.com/

    I can't believe Summer Glau is the chick geeks are hot after. Danica is Hot, has her name on a physic theorem, mathematician, and has written math books for girls.
    Her acting career is full of geek as well.

    Not to say either one of them is a geek, just that I scratch my head over why geeks prefer Summer.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  100. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by hxftw · · Score: 1

    So you've attended most US schools then?

    --
    Just because an idea is popular doesn't make it right.
  101. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I know towards the end of my school career in high school, the school system I was going through was getting rid of the lower end of most of the classes. My best guess is they were doing it for funding reasons. So while it may not be overly indicative of the entire country, the lack of different levels of classes for different skill levels is definitely not something to be taken for granted in the US.

  102. Wrong on so many levels by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

    Creativity can neither be taught nor guided. The analogy with painting and music is flawed; there are an infinite number of ways to create a painting or musical composition, but relatively few ways to create a logically consistent mathematical system. While discovering mathematical truths on your own may be fun for the author (it was for me as a child), allowing everybody to write their own Principia Mathematica is simply unpractical and would result in mathematicians being unable to communicate their precious ideas to each other. Learning math is more like learning english; while the author is correct that we shouldn't confuse the language with the beautiful ideas the language is intended to express, it is also true that we can't discuss Shakespeare without a common language for communicating the abstract ideas contained within. I feel the same way about software that this guy feels about math (some programs are much more aesthetically pleasing than others), but his worst mistake is assuming that everybody else should feel the same way about math he does. Unlike art where you can just fake it until you make it, math actually does consist of many layers that build upon each other and must be learned in progression. (There are some notable exceptions to this, e.g. Set Theory has been successfully taught to 5 year olds. Binary Arithmetic is really just a trivial case of Set Theory where only null set and unity set exist; it could be taught more easily to children BEFORE they learn decimal arithmetic, but our culture has a decimal-centric bias (in The Simpsons cartoon universe, do they count in base 8?)) Where was I? Most of us can't even make it all the way through Godel, Escher, Bach. Just because you enjoyed it is no reason to assume everyone else in the world thinks the same way you do.

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
  103. It's a full search problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh, I understood the logic and the rules which could be used in a proof. But no hints were ever given of how to select which rules to use to perform a proof. It was as if one had to just try all the rules and combinations to find a path to the proof.

  104. Math isn't useful for getting a job by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have a PhD in Math from a top school.
    I was unemployed for a few months after graduating.
    Employers were far more interested in my BS in CS.

    1. Re:Math isn't useful for getting a job by thethibs · · Score: 1

      Math may not help you get a job but it will surely help you do it. More to the point, if you have Math+CS, why aren't you doing BI?

      --
      I'm a Programmer. That's one level above Software Engineer and one level below Engineer.
  105. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by Loko+Draucarn · · Score: 1

    actually, if you look closely at the numbers, you can see how they were formed.

    1 - is a single downward stroke.

    2 - horizontal stroke, connected to another horizontal stroke below it.

    3 - (I'll ASCII art this one.)

    ---- stroke
          | connected to
      --- stroke
          | connected to
    ---- stroke

    4-9 are a little more esoteric, though.

  106. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by Loko+Draucarn · · Score: 1

    (sorry, numerals, not numbers.)

  107. I thoroughly agree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Lockhart is dead on.
    I have had one "mathematics" teacher in my life. The rest made me memorize crap. They never taught the essence of the subject, only the solutions.

    In this teacher's class he would write a brand new problem on the board which I had never seen. By the time he was making the last stroke of the last variable, I would have the solution, and promptly raise my hand. My answers always correct. He would make me come up to the board and put what I did in my head on the board. At first he was astonished to see that I had done the problem in an entirely new way which he hadn't seen before and would validate that I had solved it correctly. Often the solutions I presented were extremely simple as well as being new to him.

    He inspired me to love math, which subsequent teachers promptly crushed.

    Every other "teacher" I had made me do it their way, memorizing everything they did and would fail me if presented the solution any other way but the way they expected. I'm convinced that very few mathematics teachers should be teaching this subject. Most are snotty pseudo intellectuals with 0 imagination. I would do my best to not be noticed by them.

    I've only met one that understood what math was about.

    That's why I'm a software engineer instead of a mathematician (or historian). I'm really really good at solving problems but am terrible at memorizing. I did what I had to to get by in the math classes I did have to take. Usually it involved "cheating". God forbid I should actually solve the problems because usually I was "wrong" when I did it my own way and produced the expected result. You can only take hearing "you can't do it that way" so many times when you CAN do it that way.

    I'm no genius but I also don't need some teacher forcing my hand to "help" me solve a problem which I've already solved in my brain by the time I finish reading it. Coding seems to be a lot easier for most people to understand so the instructors give you more latitude. That was just fine with me.

    -AC

  108. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by billius · · Score: 1

    The US system is something of an anomaly in that we have a secondary schools that are supposed to cater to EVERYONE. A person earning a high school diploma could be either on their way to MIT or an exciting career at McDonald's, whereas in many other places (like Europe), people are pretty well separated out by the time they hit high school or even middle school. In Germany, for example, the students earn different types of "degrees" from different types of secondary schools and only the hardest one (abitur) will get you into a regular university. It's not expected that everyone "goes to college" like they do here and in many cases people pick special areas of study early on. If you have a classroom full of kids who are planning on becoming engineers, it's a lot easier to push them harder when it comes to math since they know that they need it and thus will be more responsive. By the same token, if you're a teacher used to dealing with kids who don't have much interested in or aptitude for math, you will eventually become good at figuring out ways to get them to be more responsive and try harder. Here everyone is mixed together and teachers have the challenge of having to teach kids with widely varying abilities and plans for the future and many simply give up and point to the university bound students and say "Look, the curriculum and my teacher methods are sound!" while the kids who are not as gifted slip through the cracks.

  109. Mathematician, Taught Public HS for 5 Years by Hnice · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Though I don't need the rhetoric, this hits it on the head, in every aspect.

    I'd like to try teaching math like English -- Math 1, Math 2, Math 3, Math 4, with curriculum determined in part by such apparently meaningless factors as what might be useful in other classes or what's happening, you know, outside of my room.

    The textbook comments are particularly right on -- step 1, burn them. If teachers complain that they won't know what to teach, fire them on the spot.

    Geometry is also a lousy place for proof. Teach deduction all the time, in every topic -- and in classrooms other than math. "Here's a bunch of fake stuff you don't know anything about that's hard to draw. Now let's think really abstractly about how we're thinking about it!" And induction doesn't get taught at all.

    The practical deal-killer, the one that drove me out of the profession, is that the barrel full of math teachers is so close to empty that you're pretty much scraping bottom from day 1. This kind of instruction -- and this kind of critique -- can only originate with someone who likes math, and is sort of good at it. You'd be amazed (or maybe you wouldn't) at how few public high school math teachers this describes.

    America has gotten the math teaching instruction it asked for when it decided to prop up bad teachers with lousy but easy-to-use texts, and to boot it got the benefit of not having to pay very well for people willing to go through these motions. (It's not about money, but really, it's a little bit about money. I doubled my salary when I left last year.) It's a big, huge problem, and since you're going to have to convince parents that it needs the kind of dramatic overhaul this (great) article describes, and since parents were largely victimized by the existing system, I'm pretty sure it's a losing battle.

    --

    god is just pretend.

  110. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Let's not argue about anecdotes!

    The Simpsons had the best summary of education ever: "Let me get this straight: I'm behind the rest of the class, and I'm going to catch up by going slower?"

    If students aren't grokking concepts as quickly as other students, the students who learn slower need to spend more time on the concepts in order to compensate. Putting them in a separate class of equal length doesn't accomplish anything. They need a unique -tract- of classes that spends more time on concepts, and they need to remain in that tract until they can learn at the same speed as the other students.

    More time is really the only way to help struggling students catch up. Logistically, this is a nightmare for even large schools. It's difficult enough to schedule students, teachers, and classrooms into basic timeblocks. Trying to add more classes of different lengths that progress at different speeds is borderline impossible.

    I believe that the best, most feasible solutions are online courses and self-guided curriculum:

      - Individual schools don't have enough teachers to have nine different Pre-Calculus courses, going at different speeds, each offered several times throughout the day, nor would they have enough students to fill all those sections...but if you connect schools with online learning, then you can share teachers and students among many schools.

      - Self-guided curriculum allows individual students to schedule their time as necessary. If two students are both taking English I and Algebra I, one could spend 2 hours a day on English and 1 on Algebra, and the other spend 2 hours a day on Algebra, and 1 hour on English, and they'd both complete the year at roughly the same level in each.

    Both of these ideas as 100% possible right now, but each has an obstacle caused by cultural inertia:
      - Schools and districts very rarely work together. Yes, we can all find a thousand examples of when they work together, but these are less than a drop in the bucket compared with the shear number of classes and projects going on every school day.
      - The education industry simply doesn't change at such a core level, mostly because training for educators is pathetic. Educational schools are largely guided by conservative former educators who perpetuate the status quo. School- and district-run professional development suffers from the same problems facing classes for students: all the teachers are at different levels of aptitude, so the classes sink to the lowest common denominator and most people don't learn anything new.

    So, add another layer to the top of the two ideas above: before they can be implemented, schools need to develop individualized professional development for teachers. Then teachers will be equipped to grow and change, and then students will finally get an education in a style that is different from and improved over education from the first half of the last century.

  111. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by bADlOGIN · · Score: 2, Informative

    You must have attended a private or EXTREMELY large school. Most US schools are nowhere near the described Netherlands system. At best, you've got three tracks - "honors" which targets the cookie-cutter wrote memory college tracked kids, standard for those who aren't fighting or don't care about math scores WRT university applications, and "essentials" for poor suffering masses who are not picking up or don't care to do the work. This is the situation in Washington State, Kent School district which is the 4th largest district in a High School with over 2600 students. Even this delineation of "skill" is still cranked through the un-inspired compulsory process Lockhart complains about. If you want to know why, check out John Taylor Gatto's "The Underground History of American Education" (http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/).

    Saying knowledge comes from a schooling about as correct as saying milk comes from a store. When you understand in both cases it's just simple packaging and processing, you can start asking questions about what it is, why it is, and how you can get it on your own, and how to evaluate the quality of the sources you get it from.

    --
    *** Sigs are a stupid waste of bandwidth.
  112. In defense of notation by Tetsujin · · Score: 1

    In the "High School Geometry" section, Lockhart talks about how a fairly simple idea - that when two lines cross, the angles on opposing sides of the crossing point will be equal - is turned into a complex and ugly chunk of notation... Lines must be identified as "AB" (with a bar over the top), there's notation for identifying the angle formed by three points, and the whole, simple idea is then backed up with a hefty "proof" in place of a simple, natural-language explanation.

    Now, I don't quite agree with all of this. Maybe that's because it worked for me, and because I enjoy the idea of mathematics and logic having their own "language", and their own notation. I mean, sure, back then I always used to wonder why they threw all those Greek letters at us - in some cases it seemed totally arbitrary. Some of it is just long-standing tradition: like the capital Sigma or the long-s glyph used for summation and integration...

    But what I enjoy about the use of these symbols is that they provide a compact way of identifying precisely what one is talking about. That these characters aren't part of everyday English writing means that they can be set aside to encapsulate powerful, specialized ideas.

    The whole "proofs" thing worked out just fine for me, too. I think it makes sense: as part of teaching people how to build up simple ideas to form an argument in support of a more complicated idea, provide examples of how to do this: even with the simplest of ideas, the things that lend themselves most readily to intuitive understanding... If a proof is provided for a problem people naturally understand to begin with, then it will help them to understand how the proof works.

    With regard to line and angle notation I think Lockhart is dead wrong. In the context of the "crossed lines" example he argues that the lines could be called "line a" and "line b" or something - and that the whole idea should be presented in a more conversational style. This could work for certain problems - especially really simple problems like that one - but there are other problems with expressing things in a conversational style. For starters, natural language is imprecise - at least the way most people use it. Precise natural language is the domain, for instance, of lawyers and logicians. It tends to be very heavy, often with its own specialized vocabulary that people don't readily understand on first exposure. Codifying the problem makes it less accessible, but also much more precise and concise.

    Now, if I'd learned "High school geometry" in high school instead of, you know, 5th grade or whatever, it's possible things would have played out differently... As it stands, however, I'm a big fan of taking advantage of domain-specific vocabulary and symbols where they are available and useful.

    --
    Bow-ties are cool.
    1. Re:In defense of notation by Sage+Gaspar · · Score: 1

      I agree completely with you, part of the beauty of math for me is taking vague ideas and turning them into a concrete mathematical objects that you can work with.

      In particular the notation required by basic Euclidean geometry is very, very intuitive. If you take the very small step of learning the notation, you can make very concise and precise statements. I honestly can't see where it obscures anything for students, either.

    2. Re:In defense of notation by $pace6host · · Score: 1

      What I took away from Lockhart's essay was that the concept is more important than the notation - not that the notation isn't valuable at all, just that it isn't necessary for simple problems, and by sharing the joy of the simple problems, you can get students to think. Learning the notation can come along a little later when you need it's compactness. Forcing the notation and letting the students experience little or none of the joy associated with the insights behind solving the problems is what he is was decrying. I think it's true, though, that there are some students that are intrigued by the symbolic language, and get drawn in that way - we are all individuals! (except me)

    3. Re:In defense of notation by $pace6host · · Score: 1

      Learning the notation can come along a little later when you need it's compactness.

      Of course, I meant "its compactness." Stupid apostrophe. Grammar Nazis, I apologize. I will now hang my head in shame.

    4. Re:In defense of notation by Tetsujin · · Score: 1

      What I took away from Lockhart's essay was that the concept is more important than the notation - not that the notation isn't valuable at all, just that it isn't necessary for simple problems, and by sharing the joy of the simple problems, you can get students to think.

      For simple problems, this may be true. For moderately complex problems, I think the weight of the less compact representation outweighs the cost of learning to work in a more compact representation.

      The problem is that many of the concepts that come into play in these problems aren't readily represented in everyday language. So the first time you introduce the concept, of course, you have to provide a full explanation of the concept in terms the reader can understand - thereafter, if you've introduced notation to represent the concept, you can rely upon that. Otherwise, each time you use the concept, you need to represent it using language that evokes that original explanation.

      Imagine, for instance, using the concept "square root" without introducing symbols or language which would encapsulate that concept. Thus, every time you use the concept "square root" you would have to say something like "that which, when multiplied by itself, equals this". Or picture trying to represent moderately complex equations in written form without the use of parentheses or any other notation which "contains" parts of the expression - this would really hurt the expressive power of the notation.

      These seem like extreme examples, but it's basically the same thing. The students are being introduced to a concept which is, to some extent, alien to them. To work with that concept, they need to put some kind of handle on it, something that conveniently and unambiguously refers to "that thing we learned about last week". Whether it's a word they've never seen before, or a symbol they've never seen before makes little difference - but I really think it's sensible to include this right from the start.

      --
      Bow-ties are cool.
    5. Re:In defense of notation by $pace6host · · Score: 1

      These seem like extreme examples, but it's basically the same thing. The students are being introduced to a concept which is, to some extent, alien to them. To work with that concept, they need to put some kind of handle on it, something that conveniently and unambiguously refers to "that thing we learned about last week". Whether it's a word they've never seen before, or a symbol they've never seen before makes little difference - but I really think it's sensible to include this right from the start.

      You may be right that it is a good idea to introduce the notation relatively soon, but I think that while the notation may be necessary, it is certainly not sufficient by itself - and there are people working as teachers in high schools who either know only the notation (and not the ideas), or are capable of only sharing the notation. That's clearly bad. That's just a handle with nothing attached.

      Personally, I tend to like the notation, too. I just thought his point was that the notation is not the idea - and the idea is the more important of the two.

      Of course, once you get beyond the simple stuff, math without the notation would be like writing a program in English - sounds great at first, until you realize how imprecise common English is.

  113. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by thethibs · · Score: 1

    Asian students also go to school 250 ten-hour days a year. They not only learn math, they learn the value and satisfaction of hard work.

    --
    I'm a Programmer. That's one level above Software Engineer and one level below Engineer.
  114. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by NoOneInParticular · · Score: 1

    Interesting and creative summary of the article. You might want to read it...

  115. Ya by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    I went to a rather small high school, graduating class of less than 300, in a smallish town and we still had multiple math tracks. Your senior year you could be taking any of the following: Calculus, Precalculus, Trigonometry, Advanced Algebra, Geometry, or Algebra 2. Which track you were on depended on how you'd done in previous years. It started in 6th grade where kids were tested in to either normal or advanced math. It then just continued diverging based on how you did. Algebra 2 was the second half of the Algebra that the most advanced kids took in 7th grade. So if you were particularly bad at math, you'd get some basic algebra before you graduated, and have it presented at a slower pace. If you were the best, you took a real calculus class, equivalent to about Calc 1 at a university, your senior year.

    This sort of thing seems fairly common. Indeed our school did it not other for math but for many subjects. They weren't all a direct linear progression as math was, but there were choices based on your skill and interests. You could take normal English, College Prep English, or AP English your senior year, for example.

    It wasn't a perfect system, but then nothing will ever be. However it did do a reasonable job of allowing those that were good at a subject and interested to progress, without denying those that needed a slower pace the opportunity to learn.

    After all, I get a little tired of the idea that education should be targeted only at the top 10% and all the "dumb" kids should just be left behind. No, I think the opposite is true. See if you are smart, you have the ability to learn on your own to a great deal. You can take the initiative to teach yourself. How many times have we heard geeks talk about their valuable self education in programming and such? However the lower performers don't have that option, they need more help. In particular, if they don't get help, they may not be able to be productive members of society. They can't just "learn it themselves."

    So really I think education needs to be setup to help those with troubles first and foremost, and worry about the top achievers second. That doesn't mean ignore the top achievers, it just means their needs aren't the most paramount.

    Now this is primary education, of course, university is different.

    1. Re:Ya by trvd1707 · · Score: 1

      In my experience here in US, the different tracks on each subject do very little into promoting or allowing creative thinking for the higher levels. All they do is to allow the student to spend more or less time with the rote learning given that they pass on the stupid standard, mandatory tests. So it's all about higher degree of compliance with the system. Most of the morons that run the offices of gifted and talented students could as well be replaced by computer programs that apply the tests and spit out the results to select who is gifted and who is not. In fact, I believe computers would do a better job at adding up the scores then most of these clerks.

  116. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by charlieo88 · · Score: 1

    Dude! Three is one of the few symbols that doesn't hide that it is made of three ones. Look how many end points it has, 1, 2, 3. Not like that bastard 7, now that one is sneaky.

  117. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You should probably think that through a little bit more.

    The performance levels you're talking about are measured by standardized tests, so increasingly intensive standard teaching methods will exhibit symptoms of increased performance.

    Should probably read the article.

  118. Coverage by michaelmalak · · Score: 1
    The Underground History of American Education:

    On the night of June 9, 1834, a group of prominent men "chiefly engaged in commerce" gathered privately in a Boston drawing room to discuss a scheme of universal schooling. Secretary of this meeting was William Ellery Channing, Horace Mannâ(TM)s own minister as well as an international figure and the leading Unitarian of his day. The location of the meeting house is not entered in the minutes nor are the names of the assemblyâ(TM)s participants apart from Channing. Even though the literacy rate in Massachusetts was 98 percent, and in neighboring Connecticut, 99.8 percent, the assembled businessmen agreed the present system of schooling allowed too much to depend upon chance. It encouraged more entrepreneurial exuberance than the social system could bear.

    The minutes of this meeting are Appleton Papers collection, Massachusetts Historical Society

    You write:

    It simply wouldn't give coverage to everyone

    This reminds me of the major theme of the well-regarded book Understanding by Design wherein the authors ridicule schools' mandate to "cover material" rather than designing means to have children understand the material.

    At any given time, way more than 100,000 people are wrong on any given issue.

    No, but it lessens the probability that the idea is "absurd" as so accused by the original response to my post. Further support is that the U.S. went without public education for most of its first century.

    1. Re:Coverage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting historical snippet without a lot of critical analysis. I'm curious what the literacy rate was in the South in 1834, or what it would have remained over the next 100 years, counting people of all races, ethnicities, genders, classes and socioeconomic statuses. How was literacy gauged in 1834 Massachusetts? The ability to sign the marriage register? The ability to read a bible passage? If I encounter someone today who is capable of signing her name, but she can't read the biography and position paper of a political candidate, is she literate today? In 1800s rural southern and eastern Europe, there was no mandatory government run schooling and most of the population was illiterate, so lack of public education is not sufficient to produce near 100% literacy. "Illiteracy in [...] 1911 Italy ranged from 11 percent in the [North] to 70 percent in the [South]" (David Vincent, The Rise of Mass Literacy) and yet their literacy rate has jumped up VASTLY from then, under the burden of public education - perhaps the causes of illiteracy are not directly related to whether the education system is public? You seem to place a great deal of faith in this anecdote without critically assessing it. Is this typical of Montessori education? I'm really curious, I may have children I need to educate one day.

  119. Re:Single Best Fix: Introducing Discrete Mathemati by khellendros1984 · · Score: 1

    That matches very closely with my math education, but it wasn't typical. A lot of students stopped after Algebra II, since only three years of high school math were required. In college, I actually enjoyed discrete mathematics quite a bit, since it's easy to think in those terms, and it has concrete uses that I was interested in.

    --
    It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
  120. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by exploder · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Do you hold any degree in mathematics, i.e. are you qualified to make the criticisms in your post? Or are you a crank?

    --
    Yo dawg, I heard you like the Ackermann function, so OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD
  121. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

    but rather because they don't feel the pressure to excel like students in other cultures.

    And why do you suppose that they don't feel that pressure? American pupils may not excel at math, but even among the math underachievers there are smart ones who see the low pay and level of respect that engineering and science receive in our culture. In the United States we glorify and shower wealth upon the athletes, lawyers, businessmen, and politicians who are often willfully ignorant of math and science. These smart students see these wealthy and powerful individuals who couldn't write a proof to save their lives and yet they somehow end up with the best houses, the nicest cars, the most money and generally look down upon scientists and engineers while gleefully outsourcing their jobs to those low-wage Asian countries where rote-memorization scientists and engineers become the next wage slaves of American international corporations. If we want good students to become scientists, engineers, or yes even mathematicians then we have to start rewarding those positions in our society instead of outsourcing their jobs and treating them like dirt.

  122. Educators, Bureaucrats, Curriculum... by weston · · Score: 1

    No honest educational professional would be behind many of the debates (evolution baiting anyone?) we see all over the US.

    I think you're missing the nature and magnitude of the problem if you believe that's true. Indeed, I find it quite likely that education professionals could be behind a lot of the initiatives, and evolution baiting, annoying as it may be, is the least of our problems.

    The biggest problem is that people think that education is something you can treat as a program, and everybody's got some set of beefs with the system, and they think that if you can *just* solve their particular issue, you'll get a quality (and maybe even ideologically correct!) education system for everyone.

    There might be things we could do to improve the educational philosophy for our culture, but I have my doubts that we can make those improvements programatically.

    The only thing that should be done nationally is a standardized curriculum

    I'm not even sure this is true, although I can see it's useful to have a minimum bar that high school education represents.

  123. Another valid point by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

    Why aren't all textbooks open sourced already? Allowing teachers to take educational texts, modify them for their own needs, and distribute the changes makes even more sense than open source software does. And yet it rarely happens. Case in point: Beaverton School District wants to start a new math curiculum; with 32,000 students they will be spending $70,000/year on new text books for the next 12 years... I want to know the name of the teacher they are firing so that they can afford this!

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
  124. Anecdotal at the very best by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Perhaps you went to a crappy public school with no advanced or "gifted" track, or you weren't slotted for it. (This is not to say that all public school in the US are crappy, but you can certainly find them.) I attended public school and went to college with a better education than a lot of students who went to the best private academies.

  125. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually, the Mayan numbering system is very much akin to Arabic and not so much to Roman numerals. They use a positional system (base 20) where the number from 1-20 in the n-th position represents a value multiplied by 20^n. The only major difference (besides base), is that instead of using ten different symbols to represent digits, a tally system using three symbols is used. This makes small arithmetic easier to think about, but makes the system less compact than the modern Arabic system.

    On the other hand, the Roman numeral system is simply a glorified tally system: position is (mostly) irrelevant, and magnitude is indicated with new symbols (i.e. X=10, C=100, M=1000). Not only is such a system less compact, but also requires new symbols whenever numbers start getting too large, and multiplication is a painful experience. The widespread use of the Roman numeral system was one of the main factors that held back the development of European Mathematics until Fibonacci introduced the Arabic system in 13th century.

  126. Re:Single Best Fix: Introducing Discrete Mathemati by Gospodin · · Score: 1

    I don't dispute the premise that US math education sucks, or that it would be useful to add Discrete Math to the list. However, your assertion that all those courses are "just plug and chug" is just absurd. Geometry is generally centered around proofs - this is the first class most students ever have in which they are expected to learn a set of axioms and theorems, and construct new theorems from them. Trigonometry places some emphasis, at least, on trig identities, e.g. prove that tanx sinx = secx - cosx. Not extremely hard, but it's not just plugging numbers into formulas.

    Calculus is similar: you work on limits, learning symbol manipulation rules like the chain rule and integration by parts, etc. Heck, even in algebra I you learn factoring polynomials, which is not at all plug and chug.

    Again, don't get me wrong: I'm all in favor of more proofs and reasoning about math. But you're still mischaracterizing the rest of high-school math.

    --
    ...following the principles of Heisenburger's Uncertain Cat...
  127. Re:Single Best Fix: Introducing Discrete Mathemati by shemyazaz · · Score: 1

    I am in agreement with the above. However, I think the use of discrete mathematics needs to be spread throughout the entire curriculum. Expecting kids to progress intellectually just because you force feed them formulas is a bit on the ridiculous side.I was one of those who never managed to "get" mathematics in school. Mostly because of the teaching methods utilizing rote memorization. My conceptual learning style just didn't allow me to absorb the information without proper applications. It took a very dedicated college professor to show me how easy mathematics can actually be when you know exactly what you are trying to do, and why. I think that the proper implimentation of conceptual teaching methods would solve at least some if not most of our math problems in primary and secondary education. The author's idea that math be treated as an optional subject kinda bothers me. Yes you can treat it as a form of art, and it helps if you don't stifle the creative tendencies of those few who are already interested in math, but a general understanding of math is a necessary component for understanding many other things in this world.

  128. Math For America. by ammorris · · Score: 1
    Sounds like Lockhart isn't the only one with this lament. This problem has been recognized by some , and some are in fact, Actively working to improve math education in our schools.

    Math For America does exactly this. If you want better math education, the solution starts with retaining better math teachers. How do you do this? Simple.. Pay them a competitive salary.

    Those who excel at math, rarely stay to teach it because it's more lucrative for them to take higher paying positions in the private sector.

    Read more at http://www.mathforamerica.org/home

    From the MFA Website "We are a nonprofit organization with a mission to improve math education in secondary public schools in the United States by recruiting, training, and retaining outstanding mathematics teachers."

  129. Woflram Alpha by hardwarejunkie9 · · Score: 1

    This is interesting particularly coupled with a posting earlier about Wolfram Alpha and all of the trouble rising over its place in mathematical education. Under the math system that this article seeks to indict the introduction of an accessible mathematical tool such as WolframAlpha would be poison to everything they're trying to teach. However, in the system that he tries to forward, such technology would be a great boon. In the general attitude of /. being "Technology giveth and technology taketh away" wouldn't this be simply another variation on the same theme? Mathematics education needs some revitalization and what better way than to put power to teach oneself into the hands of eager students?

    --
    I like losing arguments, it just means that I can take your point and make it my own.
  130. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by 0x000000 · · Score: 1

    I actually went to two different high schools. I switched the summer before my Junior year in school. This was because the high school I had been attending was having major issues with minorities fighting (the african americans and hispanics were bringing weapons to school), we had several knife stabbings at the school, and it caused many issues in general because of the way the school was run and where it was going. My dad figured it was easier to move, both closer to work, and into a new town than to have to worry about his kids going to a high school where fights were the daily norm and where no attention was being given to the rampant issues with drug use, alcohol abuse and fighting.

    The second high school I went to was a higher class, more expensive town, and while the education there was generally better in terms of people wanting to be there it was not that much better. There were different levels of classes offered, but in those classes they were still catered to the lowest common denominator. This was a mostly chinese and white school compared to my previous school. The issue at hand was that the school and the school board were more willing to put money into sports and the sports programs and buying new football fields and tracks rather than improving the class rooms, providing new books, new computers and new equipment.

    The first school was 1500 students in size, the second one was 1200 students in size, small? Not really. Not as large as some of the bigger US public high schools.

    --
    cat /dev/null > .signature
  131. Re:Single Best Fix: Introducing Discrete Mathemati by shemyazaz · · Score: 1

    I think the use of discrete mathematics needs to be spread throughout the entire curriculum

    Sorry, said discrete when I meant applied.

  132. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by 0x000000 · · Score: 1

    I was just pointing out the differences between the two educational systems, and while I agree that a chef does not need more than the US math, the fact that it was required was something I wanted point out as interesting.

    I was just comparing and contrasting the two and providing examples as to how the two differ, not using it as an excuse. Most if not all of the math I know and use I have taught myself, mainly because I have difficulty understanding math like most other students and I had to learn it my own way for it to stick.

    --
    cat /dev/null > .signature
  133. Another thought in this space by davidjohnburrowes · · Score: 1

    For folks interested, another interesting view on mathematics teaching is in the book "Knowing and Teaching Elementary Mathematics: Teachers' Understanding of Fundamental Mathematics in China and the United States" by Liping Ma. It's very thought provoking. It doesn't persuade me to any particular solution, but definitely gives me more data to think about how we teach people things like mathematics.

  134. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by SilverEyes · · Score: 1

    ... two HS degrees, seriously? Is that necessary? Where I'm from (Calgary, AB, Canada) there is enough leeway in HS for most kids to get a HS degree even if they aren't very strong at one or two subject(s) (they can earn extra credits through options, community service/work experience, take 'easy math' courses), and they still get the satisfaction of getting a HS diploma like everyone else. Considering that the majority of kids get a HS diploma (including equivalent programs for those with learning disabilities) and have the satisfaction of graduating with their peers, is it necessary for the requirements to be even easier? Does unleashing a bunch of relatively uneducated 10th graders (in my area; they are kids at 16, are just out of junior high and are still very immature with only a year of high school to temper that, and just got a driver's license) seem like a good idea?

    --
    Interesting.
  135. And your conclusions are just false. by basicio · · Score: 1

    Even small schools almost always have different math courses based on skill level (I went to a tiny high school, and we certainly did). You misunderstand the issue.

    Unless you have classes with only 2-3 students of equal ability you're going to have this problem. Even in advanced classes there are some people who learn things faster than others, and the people who learn faster are almost always forced to sit through lectures and do work that is for them pointless.

    The prevailing attitude in US education is that people who learn slowly are most helped by being in the same classes as those who learn quickly. This isn't wrong, but it does mean that those who learn quickly are slowed down to help others keep up.

    This isn't a problem unique to math education though--it's an issue for almost everything. Unsurprisingly, things like art classes and music classes are least susceptible to this problem. The people who excel can do so, and the people who don't are still able to learn from those who do.

  136. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sounds like *YOU* were the "lowest common denominator" or you might've been in a higher level class. There's no limit to what math you can take in school here. AP and honors classes are common and many students take college courses for high school credit. Hell, I studied group theory (just a rough overview really, but still) in the 5th grade. More recently, I took a graduate university course on non-linear dynamical systems (aka "chaos theory") with a high school student.

    Success in American academics is achieved the same as everything else here: work hard at it and the sky is the limit but you can always just "get by".

  137. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wealth, yes. But who's glorifying lawyers and politicians? Sure we get the occasional exceptions (e.g. presidents Kennedy, Reagan, Obama), but two of your four careers generally don't get much respect at all. Agreed on the rest of your post, but that bit was way off the mark.

    - T

  138. Foundation of Public Education in the USA by fragMasterFlash · · Score: 1

    The notion that public education should be provided to all in the USA came about during the industrial revolution. This system of education was designed not to stimulate intellect as much as it was to create a workforce with the basic skills required to work at repetitive, menial tasks day after day. While much improved over the years, public schools are still chartered with the same task of generating a pool of semi-skilled labor that simply cannot compete in the current global economy.

  139. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For a community that's so infatuated with Occam's Razor there sure are a lot of conspiracy theorists among it.

    Do you really think that over 200+ years of US history that none of thousands of people that would need to have knowledge of the plan wouldn't have turned on the conspiracy?

    The "Dumbing Down" of the country theory is too complicated. There isn't enough short term gratification for the government to be that interested in education Those running the government's tenure is usually shorter than would be necessary to show results and so they don't need to try, it will just make their successor look good.

  140. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

    "You are not truly a mathematician until you learn to abstract. Symbols "

    Nonsense, you're just proving my point that your particular mind is suited to the way the current mathematical systmes have been systamatized.

    Everyone on earth in some way mathematician (even if not a very good one) the very act of perceiving *this is not equal to that* is mathematical in and of itself, one could not much less think or navigate the world, let alone function if one could not determine *this* is NOT EQUAL to *that*. As you can see there are no numbers there and yet there you intuitively sense the 'matehmatical' nature of these relationships, but not ice how they are expressed without any kind of formal system of abstractions, and people do this *every day*.

    Symbols only come in *after* you learn that math is a subset of observing relationships.

    Say you want to create a system for caclucating the bounce of a ball or the motion of someones arm when they move it, etc.

    Math started first with basic observations and people then used little ticks, symbols and whatnot to create systems of instructions to record, order and systemtize those observations so they could reproduce them.

    You can do math without symbols at all using shapes and objects in reality and just thinking about it conceptually.

    For instance one can interpret 1.5 as being the same as 15, and the same as 150 within a particular perspective context of looking at it.

    Sure you notice they are all 10 times the distance apart. But you'll also notice they are also *reflections* of the similar ratio. By converting these numbers into visual figures or objects and alignin them on a scale or horizon you can see the relationship of scale and size along something much more natural and intuitive then simply just juggling sybols, sure it's simple example but there the point being there are ways to take down the complexity of mathematics for kids by teaching them that multiple ways to think about these things conceptually outside of the strict bounds of what the are normally taught.

  141. I teach Maths and English by boggis · · Score: 1
    I teach secondary maths and English is Australia. In English it's common to try to give students an appreciation of the beauty of what you're teaching. I tell them when poetry makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end and which novels still make me cry the third time I read them. Sometimes this gets across to students and they become curious enough to be engaged. I certainly try to get them writing stuff that they are emotionally engaged with.

    I have some of the same attitudes to some mathematics. But there are two strong forces against me.

    First, the curriculum is crammed with gumpf. There is a small set of mathematical knowledge that I think is important for citizens of a developed democracy to know, stuff around finance and statistical reasoning mostly. But I could probably cover this in one semester in Year 10. And there is a small amount of foundational number knowledge that makes it possible to teach much of the rest of mathematics - times tables, an understanding of place value. Again if this were done carefully it could be done in about a semester - I'd prefer if it were done in primary school. But I have to spend an awful lot of my time teaching other stuff that is not in any sense necessary or useful, coordinate geometry, trigonometry, calculus, volumes of complex shapes, multi-variable algebra etc etc etc. Any one of these would be fun to go into in some depth but the necessity of covering them all means that none of them are covered properly and the connections between different areas of mathematics are totally obscured.

    Secondly, my students all come to me with a history of mathematics classes. Mostly, this history teaches them that there is a right answer and they are too stupid to find it. They wait to be told, they attempt to memorise formulae and they lack curiosity about how things work. I make attempts to reverse this but when the rubber hits the road and I need to cover content quickly, I reinforce it despite my best intentions.

    If someone wants to found a charter school where I can use Godel Escher Bach as my only maths textbook just tell me where - I'll catch the next plane.

    --
    - Just trying to survive until the nanobots make me immortal -
  142. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by Big_Oh · · Score: 1

    You've missed the point: it isn't mathematicians who've made it overly complicated. It is people responsible for /teaching/ math. Mathematicians have made it exactly as complicated as it needs to be, no more and no less. But many textbook authors have taken that complicatedness and introduced it into areas where it isn't needed, out of a lack of understanding as to why it was needed in the first place. An example from TFA: mathematicians prefer "|x-5|2" over "x is between 3 and 7" because the former generalizes naturally to arbitrary metric spaces (like R^n). But until somebody is ready to talk about distance in R^2, and circles and such, the latter should be preferred. It uses less notation, and requires less thought to really grok.

  143. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by Pinkybum · · Score: 1

    And our numbers come from the Arabic world whereby the number of lines represent the count, i.e. 1 - one stick 2 - two sticks (one curved) 3 - three sticks (one straight across the top) 4 - four sticks 5 - five sticks 6 - six sticks etc.

  144. Creative vs. Pedantic by samwhite_y · · Score: 1

    I didn't see anybody give their experience with the "new math" experiment that was done a while back. If you think about this from a little distance you can see that there are two camps in mathematics education, the "Creatives" and the "Pedantics", the "new math" was an attempt by the "Creatives" (who Lockhart is clearly a member of) to inject "thinking" and "creative thought" into the mathematics curriculum. It was a total bust, primarily because the teachers teaching it really didn't understand the intentions behind this new curriculum and they reduced it to rote. Those in favor of "back to basics" would be in the "Pedantics" camp and have been making a comeback recently.

    So here in a nutshell is the two opposing camps arguments.

    Creatives argument against the Pedantics -- The Pedantic curriculum is a soul destroying exercise in rote and memorization leaving no room for a child to feel any inspiration or creativity.

    Pedantics argument against the Creatives -- The Creatives assume the world to be filled with inspired teachers that won't reduce any curriculum to a pedantic exercise. If the quality of teachers is such that they can only teach pedantic material, you might as well have the children learn something useful and constructive even if it is boring and soul destroying.

    I am an ex-mathematician and I am firmly in the "Pedantics" camp. I hate to see children that cannot add two digit number to two digit numbers without a calculator. That is the world that well meaning "Creatives" create.

    Also, is there really that strong a correlation between the percentage of students that pass standardized tests on calculus and the overall success of the community? Russia has a very strong educational system, see what that got them. The general population of the U.S. would be considered be woefully uneducated by the standards of many other countries. But if you were to take any country with as large an immigrant population, I suspect you would see similar numbers. Over time the immigrants are absorbed into the main stream and their children do better. But could it be possible that these immigrants are also the source of the vitality of the U.S. economy and their education (or lack of it) is not the primary reason for why they make this nation so successful?

  145. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

    "But who's glorifying lawyers and politicians?"

    I think he means they have a semi respectable image that people want to aspire to, usually people in such positions have social skills and some kind of charm and social network they benefit from.

    Scientists, engineers, mathematicians and philosophers tend to be disproportionately nerdy, they may be alright socially but they aren't that agressively social in their personalities and truth is culturally they are shown in a negative light. (scientists = glasses + white lab coats, hunching over an experiment, John nash in a beautiful mind = genius = mental illness, etc).

    Lawyers have always had both respect and disrespect. From a parents perspective dealing with their kids going into law - they make good money (and there are good lawyers, think EFF, civil rights lawyers, etc, etc) and then their are the bad apples in the profession that give the law profession a bad name and become the butt of endless lawyer jokes.

  146. Some great teachers are alive and well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mr. Tiber, St. Joseph's High School, Kenosha WI â"ÂI'm sure he's retired by now.

    I'm an artist and very visual so math really wasn't my bag. In most of my math-related classes all through high school I would usually average a "C." I was taught, reluctantly but it was required, Advanced Geometry by this man and received an "A" for the entire semester. This man taught math the way my better art teachers taught painting and drawing. He was very passionate about mathematics, I think the true problem is that most teachers have no passion for whatever subject it is they teach. They're substitute teachers that happen to teach a specific subject all the time.

    I don't think I ever thanked him for teaching me so well. I don't even think I was smart enough back then to even realize what he had done.

  147. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    :3

  148. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    From http://www.symmetryperfect.com/:

    This unconventional work initially involves the creation of a revised multiplication in which the revised product of two negative factors equals a negative real number, contrary to conventional multiplication. This precludes the existence of the unit imaginary number and thus, the complex number system.

    Takes mathematics back at least 300 years, if not a couple thousand, and prevents the development of most modern technology: useful alternating current circuits (complex impedance), GPS (relativity), solid-state memory (quantum mechanics), etc. Complex numbers made these advances possible, and you'd throw them out because "mathematicians have made them hard to understand." Fantastic.

    In revised algebra, a binomial, linear equation to the nth (any) degree is solvable since after revised cross-multiplication, it is reducible to the original, first degree equation. In conventional algebra, a binomial, linear equation to the fifth degree or higher is generally impossible to derive solutions for.

    For every n > 4 there are polynomials of degree n which are not solvable by radicals. If this person has discovered otherwise, I'd like to see a concrete example. Give me a root of f(x)=x^5-x-1 using only radicals. If you can, I know a few awards committees that would like to speak with you.

    To the parent poster: you have a valid point that math should be taught with a stronger connection to the real world. I agree 100% with you.

    However, real science is damned hard, and demands results, not complaints. If you've got a better way of thinking about math that will make it easier to do real science, by all means, let the scientific community know, they'll love you for it. But you aren't going to convince people by linking to quacks. When you come at the problem with "throw out complex numbers" and "the Mayans were way smart", you need to back that up with "here's why science is better without complex numbers -- because I can predict X" or "thinking about numbers using shapes has these advantages..." Otherwise, you have no credibility, you're just whinging.

  149. I just wanna be loved!!! by Sax+Maniac · · Score: 1

    This strikes as me as bricklayer who looks at the rock stars getting laid any saying "Hey! Bricklaying is an art too! Why don't I get the girls? Why don't people love what I do? I just want to be loved! IS THAT SO RAWWWNG?"

    I read the entire paper, and I agree with most of the statements. However the central thesis -- people don't like pure math because it's not taught properly in school -- is a load of bull.

    Given no prompting at all, people will draw pictures. It's fun. They will sing and create music. It's fun. A three year will do it, and good luck stopping them, as it seems to be built-in to humans.

    They won't look at a box and wonder whether a triangle takes up half the area and then carefully ruminate upon the chain of pure deductive reasoning towards the clever orgasmic bliss of enlightenment. Otherwise, people would spontaneously get together and have math parties where they talk about hypercubes and whatever stuff mathematicians talk about. No, instead they get together, have a couple of drinks and listen to music.

    I love pure math, despite being terrible at it. It's obviously a great thing, but not everyone's built that way. The kind of thinking that he likes is just not as common as he would like it to be.

    --
    I can explanate how to administrate your network. You must configurate and segmentate it, so it can computate.
  150. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's worth noting that this type of creative math education would be extremely helpful in coding and development of all kinds. The process of writing a program to perform a task is very similar to devising a proper mental solution to a mathematical problem -- at least that's how I've always felt.

  151. here's more info... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Lockhart's paper was referenced March 2008 on the monthly Mathematical Association of America (MAA) online column of Keith Devlin, here

    it's a thought-provoking essay, by someone with the credentials to be taken seriously. Nice to see it finally being slashdotted :)

  152. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

    "You've missed the point: it isn't mathematicians who've made it overly complicated."

    Actually it is, go read the authors of modern textbooks "So and so, PHD of mathematics university of so and so", I know because I've got a heap of textbooks written by these complainers that I've gone through and marked with notes on my own time doing my own research.

    I wouldn't have posted my OP if I didn't have genuine beef with many in the establishment in the first place.

  153. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is certainly a generalization. The Singapore mathematics curriculum is very problem driven and not at all rote memorization. Singapore regularly appears in the highest places in the TIMSS. Indeed a study of student performance on statistics questions showed that the Singaporean students did better than the US counterparts despite the fact that the US curriculum contains statistics as a topic whilst the Singaporean curriculum does not.

    I don't buy the "pressure to succeed" arguments either. I think that it is the system that is failing the students and not the other way around.

  154. thoughts from a math teacher by entropiccanuck · · Score: 1
    IAAMT, last year 8th grade at a high minority pop, low income school. This next year I'll be teaching Algebra 1 at a high school. I agree with many of the points in Lockhart's article, with the primary exception being that this problem isn't already being addressed by some in education.

    Math has been gutted of meaning, but this is changing. There are solid curricula out there that are being used, such as IMP ( the Interactive Math Program) or PBL (Project/Problem Based Learning) style lessons. An example of PBL that I used last year with my 8th graders was in modeling a bride. They were given a plausible scenario (school buildings are getting a 2nd story added on to reduce the number of portable classrooms, they had to design and model a bridge between these 2nd stories.) So, we went out and measured distances, built newpaper bridges and tested how much weight they could hold to find relationships for thickness v. load and length v. load, calculated needed load support based on population, class flow, 8th grader mass, etc., graphed some data in Excel, and used their formula and data to built a cost-optimized bridge. They had fun exploring some rich problems (and some frustration, as it did require some thought) and gained a better grasp of linear relationships, a key concept in 8th grade.

    This type of teaching isn't widespread, but it was being advocated by my college advisers. One of the problems with doing this kind of math is the lack of public support. In the school district I'm in, about half the high schools were giving an option to use IMP to students, but parents complained and such, and now only a few charter schools use it. Still, support is starting to spread some, so the more interesting approaches are being slowly revived.

    For those interested in this topic, check out What's math got to do with it?" by Jo Boaler (new edition out later this month.)

  155. My POV by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As a high school math teacher (who has a BA in Math and MSEd in Educational Psych - by the way, Masters are NOT required for teaching HS, at least not in most states - and I did find the MSEd valuable in helping me learn how to teach math, probably more valuable than an additional degree in math, as at that level, I would not be using it in HS), I believe there is a lot of validity to the article and the comments made here. But I think it is important to recognize additional problems (which may be listed in some of the 400 comments I didn't have a chance to read)...
    1) Though I would ideally love to teach the history and art of math, we are limited by time and curriculum. We are held slave to standardized tests that require we focus on required material in a limited amount of time. I do my best to incorporate history and passion, but sometimes it is lost due to other constraints, but not by lack of desire.
    2) One of the absolute largest problems is that our grade level standards are absurd. While the top performing countries will focus on 10 or less standards per year (thus allowing them to go into more detail, understanding, passion/art/history and mastery and thereby requiring less review each subsequent year), there are several grade/math levels in the US that have 20 or more standards to be covered. What that usually results in is the need for LOTS of review each year because it is not resonable for us to expect students to really "get" something if they spend 9 days on a topic, where as their international counterparts are spending 2 times that on the same material. And the more we review, the less time we have for new learning. If we, as simple teachers, cogs in the machine, could narrow those standards down so that we could really internalize the material, the students would better learn, understand and maybe even love the subject. Unfortunately, we cannot make that decision on our own - we answer to many other people. Ideally, we could revamp the entire system starting with Kindergarten.
    There are many other things to consider as well, but what we can do right now is NOT demoralize the teachers that are working their tails off to help their students learn and succeed and instead, find ways to bring this important educational deficit to the front of government minds. We do need change, and it has to start at the very beginning.

  156. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, sorry but I have to disagree with you here.

    Personally, I am 16 and currently at High School in the UK. What you have described is exactly the same situation we have here.

    Also, I have spent this week at a trial event for what is a section of the proposed new physics course for the whole of scotland. Easy, does not even begin to explain it. If you cannot, at my age, or even a few years prior to it understand that course then you deserve to spend your life cleaning bins I personally feel. The worst part is that it is for the new "Higher" course which is regarded as one of the highest levels that can be achieved in High School here. Maths is the same.

    Maths at my School is taught as a series of completely useless garbage that has absolutely no relation to anything in the real world. I think the following conversation with another boy in my class last year about sums this up. This was during a lesson on Quadratic Formula:
    Pupil: Miss, what exactly are we EVER going to use this for?
    Teacher: To pass your exams!
    Pupil: No, I mean like, actually use it when we get a job or something?
    Teacher: You will need to pass your exams to get a job.

    Very, very sad in my opinion. The only teacher Ive ever found to go against this was a previous English teacher of mines, fantastic guy. He realised that being the top english class, it would take a fraction of the time to actually learn the course than the time we had. So he would bassically spend a very small amount of time doing "lessons" and then the rest of period debating things, class discussions. REAL interesting topics where we weren't learning anything by the stats definition, but I certainly learned far more in that time than any other subjects in that school. Physics was similar but I think Physics teachers tend to be the most laid back, anti-disestablishmentarian type of teachers around.

  157. Oh, my word. by orngjce223 · · Score: 1

    I'd like to just spin off some sort of society where the "best practices" can be pursued, current government be damned.

    Problem 1: You can't get a society of 1 person. Who's going with me?
    Problem 2: Easiest way out is to pilot a ship into international waters and then ground it, Sealand-style, but nobody makes that sort of platform that *I* know of.
    Problem 3: Internet connectivity is a must. Attracting the attention of one of those big fiber-optic-cable-laying companies will be nigh impossible for a micronation.
    Problem 4: How do you make a sea platform expandable?

    tl;dr: I want to fork society. Who's with me?

    --
    Note: I was 13 when I wrote most of this. Take with several grains of salt.
  158. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cool. Let's see your elegant non-symbolic proof of the Fundamental Theorem of Galois Theory. That way I don't have to slog through several chapters of Hungerford's Algebra. Bring it on, man! Your audience awaits.

  159. That mathematician is clueless :-) by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    Now, that is a very inflammatory subject title, so let me explain what I mean.

    I was glad to see a previous comment referencing John Taylor Gatto. I do not see Gatto's name in the PDF document. Neither do I see John Holt's name. The fact is, the purpose of "schooling" (which is not the same as "education", and you would expect a mathematician to be more precise in a use of terms) is precisely to do what the mathematician decries at the end: "And there you have it. A complete prescription for permanently disabling young minds-- a proven cure for curiosity. What have they done to mathematics! There is such breathtaking depth and heartbreaking beauty in this ancient art form. How ironic that people dismiss mathematics as the antithesis of creativity. They are missing out on an art form older than any book, more profound than any poem, and more abstract than any abstract. And it is school that has done this! What a sad endless cycle of innocent teachers inflicting damage upon innocent students. We could all be having so much more fun."

    Education in the USA will not improve until people like this mathematician accept that what he said is the intentional purpose of schooling in all subjects for almost all children. See things like:
        "The 7-Lesson Schoolteacher" by John Taylor Gatto, NYS Teacher of the Year
        http://www.newciv.org/whole/schoolteacher.txt
    or:
        "The Big Crunch" by Dr. David Goodstein, Vice Provost Caltech
        http://www.its.caltech.edu/~dg/crunch_art.html
    or:
        "Growing Without Schooling" about John Holt's work, including failed attempts to reform schools
        http://www.holtgws.com/

    At this point, it is people like Paul Lockhart who are the problem. People who think school is about education, when it is about socialization in a certain way intended for the most part to produce compliant workers, obedient soldiers, and mindless consumers. School is for fish. Curriculums are race tracks. And "class rooms" are literally to build social classes through selective breeding by genetics. Those are the origins of all those terms, at least according to Gatto, and, again, you would expect a mathematician to be precise about the origins and use of terminology.

    With all that said, of course Paul Lockhart is right about how to improve mathematics education. But, it will never work within a Prussian-derived school system with no interest in truly educating children, despite every person who works at a school calling themselves an educator, and despite the truth that most of the people in schools might be fine educators if given the chance and a few years of untraining of their bad habits.
        "The Emergence of Compulsory Schooling and ... Resistance"
        http://web.archive.org/web/20071014123355/http://www.social-ecology.org/article.php?story=20031028151034651

    Anyway, sorry to be so harsh on you, Paul. Read "Disciplined Minds" and start building a social network to help you and them and others break out of the prison around you:
        "Disciplined Minds: A Critical Look at Salaried Professionals and the Soul-Battering System That Shapes Their Lives"
        http://www.disciplined-minds.com/

    The good news is, you have already taken the first step of getting out of the prison others have forced you to build for yourself.

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  160. Re:Typical Slashdot... by Omestes · · Score: 2, Funny

    But he got to base 2...

    --
    A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
  161. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

    "Bring it on, man! Your audience awaits."

    Note what you suggest would take a large chunk of ones lifetime to put together, by restructuring the theory and mapping them onto observations from the real world.

    Consider:

    The birth of Galois theory was originally motivated by the following question, whose answer is known as the Abel-Ruffini theorem.

    "Why is there no formula for the roots of a fifth (or higher) degree polynomial equation in terms of the coefficients of the polynomial, using only the usual algebraic operations (addition, subtraction, multiplication, division) and application of radicals (square roots, cube roots, etc)?"

    Now I would force the original author to translate his equations into real world objects and manipulations, no more abstract jargon, this *exactly* what I'm talking about, where people take jargon so far away from observations in the world and *de map them* to such an extent they've gutted the original sources persons from whom they are derived.

    Most people don't keep a perfect record of their insights and intuitions and the ideas that lead them to systems of equations, you'd see a lot of what looked like 'gobbleygook' to you because unless you have direct access to that persons mind *you simply can't grasp the relationships* and intuitions they have been building up for an enormous amount of time.

    I am only one man and I would *happily* take your challenge. There is only so much time and mathematics is an enormous discipline.

  162. abstraction by lexluther · · Score: 1

    I think the pdf was quite good, albeit repetitive. In any case, in the end, I think he makes an interesting point about abstraction:

    On the surface this seems fairly innocuous; why not make some abbreviations so that things can be said more economically? The problem is that definitions matter. They come from aesthetic decisions about what distinctions you as an artist consider important. And they are problem-generated. To make a definition is to highlight and call attention to a feature or structural property.

    Learning to make good abstraction when programming is a difficult challenge, the right choice can have huge downstream consequences. An educational system which allowed students to get comfortable with the exploration of different abstractions, as well as, the forestalling of notation and rigour until the right rigour was appropriate would be a huge win to reasoning across the board.

  163. Damn you! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Damn you! Damn you to hell! You made me like math again. Now I have to get Mathematica out again to get funny looks just like in high school.

  164. Somehow, I overcame... by wfolta · · Score: 1

    I always knew that I did poorly in classes that required formal proofs, ranging from Geometry to Analysis of Algorithms. I always had problems because I could not tell what was "obvious" and what was not. As an intuitive thinker, I'd either not be "rigorous enough", or, after being told I wasn't rigorous enough, I'd try to compensate and end up trying to prove "obvious" things. (They were somehow defined as "obvious", but I could certainly see lots of nooks and crannies in them that could contain problems.)

    And I still cringe when someone says they "hate theory". I love theory, because it's theory that actually illuminates things. But most people have all kinds of unpleasant experiences with "theory classes" taught by people who do not understand the subject matter. The result is that the teaching is brittle: if you stray away from the teacher's guide in your question, you are herded back onto the straight-n-narrow path with confusing hand-waving and hurled jargon. It makes no sense to you, but the teacher says it with authority and you assume that you're too dumb to understand it, and eventually come to hate "theory classes".

    This starts at early ages with math education. And it might be called "the hard place". Opposite this hard place is the rock of boring, rote repetition.

    Some of us manage to get through this relatively intact. I guess we have a strong attraction to underlying explanations ("theory") and enough school-smarts that we get good grades, encouraging us that perhaps we are smart and what we don't understand is in fact understandable if we apply ourselves.

    The trick is how to balance the ideal math education with the abilities/training of the huge number of teachers required to teach it. (Who have themselves been warped by their own math education.) And to balance the need for rote things (multiplication tables come to mind) with curiosity and enticement to learn.

  165. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Your cousin took linear algebra in high school?

  166. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The U.S. is being outclassed in mathematics because the average IQ of Americans
    is lower. Period. End of story.

  167. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by oclawgeek · · Score: 1

    That's not even remotely true. Most major metropolitan school districts in my state (California) cater mostly to the mediocre, and offer advanced classes to some kids who are better at following instructions, and minimal training to problem kids. The control ought to be more fine-grained than this. The problem kids, for example, are all just lumped together, even if no rational person would think that prudent. For example, at one school I know of, the mentally disabled kids are placed with kids who are just too far behind other kids of the same age, and both groups are blended with kids who are just disciplinary issues, with no ability on the part of the teacher to deal with each situation in an appropriate way. Thanks, standardized testing!

    --
    News Flash: Godzilla hates infrastructure.
  168. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by SanguineV · · Score: 1

    Funny you should say that here, you are aware that many significant results and definitions in computer science are based on unary arithmetic? If you want to know more I strongly suggest looking at definitions of computability, turing completeness, recursion/computation, the halting problem, etc.

  169. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now I would force the original author to translate his equations into real world objects and manipulations, no more abstract jargon, this *exactly* what I'm talking about, where people take jargon so far away from observations in the world and *de map them* to such an extent they've gutted the original sources persons from whom they are derived.

    And, I put to you that MOST mathematics cannot be translated into real world objects and manipulations. What concrete objects would be used in a discussion of infinite dimensional vector spaces, the Banach-Tarski paradox, the Radon-Nikodym Theorem, or transfinite cardinal numbers?

  170. Re:Typical Slashdot... by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

    i.e. second base...oh forget it.

  171. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by Dilpo · · Score: 1

    I went to a school about your size, just more recently. My graduating class was somewhere in the mid 700's. There was more than 2 levels of math and science. Granted there was only two with the same name, AP calc 2 and calc 2, or AP calc 1 and calc 1 etc. but not everyone even made it to calc1. By 12th grade students were spread out into any of the following math classes: Algebra 2, Algebra 2 AP, Pre-Calculus, Calc 1, AP Calc 1, Calc 2, or AP Calc2. Thats 7 different "senior" levels of math in a single highschool. If you're goal is just to graduate then Algebra 2 is where you finished. Depending on your academic ability and how far you really wanted to go you could be as much as 7 "levels" ahead of that by the time graduation rolled around. Thats not to say that you'd have to take the other 6 to make it to AP Calc2. The highest "path" you could take would look something like Alg 2AP -> Calc1 AP -> Calc2AP. But in order to do that you'd need to start Alg 1 in 7th grade (Alg1 in middle school was split into two years taking 7th and 8th grade to complete allowing you to go straight into geometry/trig your freshmen year in highschool, again this was optional and a "level" above what most 7th and 8th graders take, as well as 8th graders who took the first part of alg1 in order to breeze through it freshmen year). There was also summer school if you wanted to get ahead although that option wasn't very popular. Most kids I knew also jumped around different levels taking Alg 2 and Calc1 before taking AP Calc2 or say they took AP Calc 1 but not AP Calc2. It was surprisingly close to college where you're just told to take classes in these categories and this is how many years of these classes you had to take and certain classes require other classes to already have been taken or to be taken at the same time. Science and Math crossed paths like that a lot.

    Science was pretty much the same but you could further specialize ending in a physics or chemistry path or a more basic level of both if you wanted and basic levels of each were required before graduation.

    English had less options but still ended up with 4 different levels you could end up taking your senior year, one of those being a "college" level course taught by a professor that drove in from a community college 3 days a week. We didn't have anything called "social studies" past elementary. We had geography, poly sci-ish classes (not called that but the name escapes me and the subject was basically the same), history etc. They each had 3-4 levels you could end up with your senior year as well and again you could sort of 'specialize' in your favorite.

    This is ~5 years ago in a public school in Texas. The district currently has 6 or 7 highschools all about the same size with the same curriculum. I think its 7 now, they keep building more and I dont live in the area anymore and my parents rarely talk to me about it. Also just like to point out that you calling into question someone elses experience, given he did say "most", as atypical is kind of funny seeing as how you only really have on view point to look from as well and it is admittedly ~20 years old if not closer to 30.

    Moral of the story is things change, and public education across the US varies WILDLY in terms of quality and choices available.
    Also just remembered that for each of those AP classes there was a "Pre-AP" version. So make that 3 sublevels for each level.

  172. Stop blaming our education system by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    The United States is being outclassed in math and science education by a host of other nations.

    Because:

    A. The US has only about 5% of the world's population; thus we have only about 5% of all math whizzes.

    B. Compared to other fields in a given nation, math pays poorly in the US.

    Those who keep blaming it on our education system ignore these facts.
         

  173. I got as far as page six... by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

    ... at which point the authour appears to give science the same deconstructionist treatment he has been arguing against for mathematics???

    Qoute TFA (my emph.)- "Likewise, if your science teacher tried to convince you that astronomy is about predicting a person's future based on their date of birth, you would know she was crazy-- science has seeped into the culture to such an extent that almost everyone knows about atoms and galaxies and laws of nature. But if your math teacher gives you the impression, either expressly or by default, that mathematics is about formulas and definitions and memorizing algorithms, who will set you straight?"

    Modern science is the communal pursuit of truth and beauty via observation, imagination and critical thinking.

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
  174. irony by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The fact that you had to post such a reply to someone whose opening sentence was, "I'm excellent with logic" is ironic. I point this out because so many Slashdotters are irony challenged. This example is priceless humor. It's hard to make this stuff up.

  175. In Charlotte, we have a buffoon for a by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Superintendent. A perfect buffoon. If you dont believe me, listen to him whine and cry like a girl, on the radio and on TV, as he "earns" 300K per year and has 5 assistants making 100K EACH per year - DOING NOTHING. Not one damn thing, to further our city's education. Meanwhile, he wonders where the good teachers are? Yea, they want to earn 25K and put up with brats who curse them and hit them, and when the teachers complain, they get fired. Sounds like a better job than 20K a year at Borders to me! Not.

    Math, my friends, is NOT the only problem with the US education. Look deep within the system. Is so far gone it needs to be replaced - top to bottom.

  176. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ugh...
              I defy you to rigorously prove -any- statement without the use of the "symbolic format" of mathematics. The great power of mathematics is to turn unclear intuitions into clean, precise symbolic statements, and to -understand- why these statements correspond to intuition. If you believe you can greatly simplify the notations currently used to do mathematics, then i believe you would be a runner up for the next field medal award.

  177. Re:Single Best Fix: Introducing Discrete Mathemati by mysidia · · Score: 1

    Er.. the "symbol manipulation rules", _are_ plug and chug. Aka, recognize the specific cases shown in your text book, and whenever one of those cases comes up, apply the rule.

    Geometry is worse than plug and chug, for the reasons mentioned in the article. And it's not primarily intuitive thought that is used, instead students get to memorize the rule list, and get trained to prove certain things a certain way, and these things they are "proving" are mind-numbingly obvious.

    Also, factoring polynomials is plug and chug. In algebra classes they actually provide formulas for doing it: There's a formula for factoring ax^2 + bx + c. And a rote procedure students are trained to follow to reduce the polynomial to multiples of trinomials of that form, which involves [a] finding the GCF of the polynomial, [b] applying grouping, etc.. . there is a list of tasks students are trained to go down and deal with in a certain order.

    And when they implement all the tasks in the list to completion, the result is factored.

  178. Why are we still teaching classic plane geometry? by Animats · · Score: 1

    I've done some rather math-heavy programming. I'm one of the people who made ragdoll physics work, a painful exercise in geometry, differential equations, and error control. (If you're not real serious about the error control, your ragdolls will fly apart or launch themselves into space for no reason visible to the end user. This gets you nasty writeups in game magazines.)

    I've also done proof of correctness work, using and working on automatic theorem provers. And I've done some work on sensor fusion for inertial navigation systems.

    Despite this, I've never had to do a classic high-school type geometric proof since high school. High school geometry is taught that way because Euclid taught it that way two millennia ago. (A century ago, schools were still using Euclid's Elements as a textbook.) It's only taught because it's locked into college entrance exams like the SAT.

    If you want to teach mathematical reasoning, that's fine. But there's no reason to teach it in the geometric domain. It's a skill that's used very, very seldom.

  179. Mathematics is not about puzzles. by Animats · · Score: 1

    The other big problem with the teaching of mathematics is the emphasis on "puzzles". That's all wrong. Mathematics is a tool for design and analysis of things you might want to build or understand. It should be taught that way. In particular, high school calculus and high school physics should be integrated. Teach calculus as a way to understand mechanical systems and electrical circuits, and it makes much more sense.

    I have (somewhere) a U.S. Navy textbook from WWII which teaches calculus from exactly that standpoint. During WWII, the Navy needed engineering technicians in a hurry, and they set up a crash training program without much input from the "educational establishment".

  180. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by EEBaum · · Score: 1

    Worse yet, the AP/Honors courses are not only at a higher level, but for some baffling reason most would assign an order of magnitude more work. While I could've handled the material, I simply didn't want the increased workload and so avoided AP classes like the plague. The threat alone of so much more homework was enough to make me avoid AP classes like the plague. Then, using the handy loophole, my non-AP-enrolled self took and passed 3 AP tests for the college credit.

    --
    -- I prefer the term "karma escort."
  181. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Several posters touched on other good points, but I'd like to point out that those "better performing" countries, especially in Asia, do not share our "total graduation" philosophy. If a kid doesn't do well in school, he is encouraged to leave. This significantly bumps up their test scores, making comparison between those countries and the US a false one. It's why their scores are always better than us -- but that makes those scores useful to the academic sector, since they can always try to argue for more money. (Which can then be sucked into school administration's pockets. If they do it fast enough, teachers and students will never see a dime's worth of improvement!)

  182. "Coach What's-His-Name" by EEBaum · · Score: 1

    On the first day of class, my college history teacher asked for a show of hands on how many had been in a high school history class taught by "Coach What's-His-Name". Almost all the hands went up. The situation is quite similar for high school math. I had one HS math teacher who wasn't a coach, and she was even worse than the ones that were.

    --
    -- I prefer the term "karma escort."
  183. The Argument is Seriously Flawed by Borg+Bucolic · · Score: 1
    I agree with a few things stated, but...... just because you have experienced something does not make you an expert on it.

    On the other hand, he wrote an essay/article based upon his reasoned judgments about subject he was taught poorly by people

    that didn't know anything about it while claiming that this education provided no means of making the argument he just made.

    If you only knew what really happens in the classrooms today.....

  184. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by DrEasy · · Score: 1

    Yeah but the rote learning style only produces robots, not critical thinkers, decision makers and game changers. I agree though that North America is producing neither the former or the latter.

    --
    "In our tactical decisions, we are operating contrary to our strategic interest."
  185. I can't count either! by jonaskoelker · · Score: 1

    fourth!

  186. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by oiron · · Score: 1

    It's more because we in Asia (I can talk about India, at least) still have teachers who can take notice of the kid who's questioning that rote learning and guide him/her further. Unfortunately, that's being compromised too

  187. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by rekees · · Score: 1

    American pupils feel the pressure to make money, which is done best by the American model through business or law schools. To get a business degree or MBA, one needs very basic algebra, even in 'good' business programs. We have a problem of culture obsessed with making money first, ahead of many other values including being creative. The MBAs and lawyers then go an run the country and promote their lifestyle: "I made it well without math or sciences, others can, too." Not sure when/how it will change, but this model puts us at great risk in a democracy: if the majority don't create any value, making money in itself is not creating value, then they'll run us into the ground. This was the very reason public schools were created; forgot what president in the 19th century figured this out. Pretty sad story we are living.

  188. Whoa! A nerd who writes!? by Xylene2301 · · Score: 1

    The author of the paper is a math nerd who can actually write and communicate ideas; that's an oddity in itself.

  189. You Can't Teach Around The Economics! by logicnazi · · Score: 1

    As a working mathematician I had a great deal of sympathy for many things Lockhardt had to say. In particular he couldn't be more right about the total uselessness of most of the math curriculum to most students. Go ask a working professional (doctor, lawyer, etc..) to solve a system of linear equations in 2 unknowns and it's immediately apparent they got no direct practical benefit from their math classes.

    I quibble with his ragging on epsilon-delta and other precise definitions. I finally realized math was elegant and exciting precisely because I was so disgusted with (ugly) intuitive arguments about smoothness I went and found a book that taught me the elegant formal definitions that made calculus all fit together. Not that I would recommend this for everyone but I personally find it one of the most aesthetically aspects of analysis.

    -----

    However, where he really totally blows it is when he assumes that math can be a fun exploratory intellectual adventure for everyone. Yes, virtually everyone has the innate intelligence to do this but no matter what you do math is going to make some people feel dumb and frustrated. There are right and wrong answers in math and not everyone can be above average.

    Sure, everyone might be lackadaisical in HS art class but that's because few (no?) people's future depends on their ability to do well in the class. On the other hand the best and the brightest signal their ability by performing well in math. Sure, these students succeed because they are curious and interested but all the other students will struggle to look like the mathematically advanced kids and those who fail will feel bad about themselves for it. No matter how you teach you can't eliminate the economic pressure on the students to appear as if they are good at math.

    People don't like doing things that make them feel stupid or frustrated and learning real math requires genuine curiosity and thought. You just can't force people who resent the subject to think.

    Perhaps we should simply accept that math is going to be like literature or art. A small percent will have the desire and interest to pursue it in highschool and we should just try to avoid turning off the rest enough they might return in their own time.

    --

    If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:

  190. News? by PoliticalGamer · · Score: 1

    Isn't this fairly old? I know I have seen it before.

  191. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by gatkinso · · Score: 1

    The public schools I attended in the US were set up very similarly to the way you describe European schools - sections based on performance levels.

    Incidentally, they stopped this about two years after I graduated high school.

    I come from a small rural town in western Maryland. Redneck city. Many of the kids I graduated with left town, went to college are all over the world doing all kinds of things. I currently design airborne hyperspectral sensors for instance.

    The kids afterward? Much lower college attendance. Many of them still living with their parents. A lot of unemployment in that group.

    Oh well.

    --
    I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
  192. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by dzfoo · · Score: 1

    He said:
    "And it showed me how arbitrary mathematical systems and their structures really are and they are built to suit particular kinds of minds or cultures."
    "Math is a very rich subject which unfortunately has a lot of cultish like people"

    You said:
    >> so you want to teach math using base-1 ... that's... insane.

    Boy, what a way to miss and prove his point.

              -dZ.

    --
    Carol vs. Ghost
    ...Can you save Christmas?
  193. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by dzfoo · · Score: 1

    If you think about it a little bit more, you'll realize that it's the other way around. Throughout centuries we've learned to deal with the various patterns and concepts in mathematics by creating shorthand symbols and methods that expressed them. It is therefore no wonder when people educated in such mechanims create computer languages similar in expression and syntax.

    A "function" in Perl (or C) is essentially the same as one in Algebra, compare:

    sub foo(bar) {
          return (2 * bar) / 10;
    }
            2x
    f(x) = ----
            10

    A set of parameters are transformed into an answer directly related to them. The concepts, terms and syntax were borrowed liberally because they were already there and it was convenient. This is not an accident.

            -dZ.

    --
    Carol vs. Ghost
    ...Can you save Christmas?
  194. Re:Single Best Fix: Introducing Discrete Mathemati by michael_cain · · Score: 1
    Notice what the student is prepared for at the various points where they might leave this sequence: balance the checkbook, accounting/business planning, construction/design, medieval mechanical/civil engineering. Math in the public schools has never been about creating mathematicians, but creating crafts people of various sorts (just as the art program is not about creating real artists). Not math as an end to itself, but strictly math as a tool. Even when I was an undergraduate at a public university 30 years ago, there were calculus sections for math majors (small, where I was) and calculus sections for engineers (large, where most of my friends were). And we learned very different things in "calculus": they learned how to apply it, I learned how to prove it.

    If I were going to change this sequence, I would drop geometry before I added anything. I loved geometry, for all the reasons that the essay identifies: an opportunity to create something beautiful out of ideas alone. Frustrated when the teacher asked, "How would all this change if we were doing it on the surface of a sphere, instead of on a plane?" and then didn't pursue it. But it's simply boring as hell for most people, and at least from my anecdotal experience, chases more kids out of applied math than anything else in the curriculum.

  195. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As a quick test, would your mother have been bragging to her friends if you had gone to law school? Would she have been thrilled if you married a lawyer? If yes, then we value / respect lawyers. Thankfully, some value engineering and science, too (thanks, Mom!)

  196. Re:Housecats by dzfoo · · Score: 1

    >> The author wants to a priori assume that everyone will love math if only the beauty of it is shown to them. This is mistaken.

    Mistaken? Perhaps. But his point is that the student should be exposed to its beauty to at least have a chance of it sparking his interest. He contends, and quite eloquently in my opinion, that the current curriculum precludes this beauty and prevents the student from even considering the notion that there could ever be beauty and elegance, or any interesting things at all, in Mathematics.

            -dZ.

    --
    Carol vs. Ghost
    ...Can you save Christmas?
  197. Re:Typical Slashdot... by Hurricane78 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Because all your *other* base are belong to US!

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
  198. He's consfusing different meaning of "art" by ET3D · · Score: 1

    Math may be an art, in the same sense that programming is art, but it's not an art form. I like Wikipedia's definition of art: "Art is the process or product of deliberately arranging elements in a way that appeals to the senses or emotions." In this sense, programming is not an art, but computer games are. Yes, the work 'art' has other meanings, some of which apply to math and programming, but it's not the same meaning applied to music or painting.

    That's why to me this article doesn't make sense or propose a real solution. Math is no different than history or science, or, for that matter, literature. They are all taught mainly as a collection of facts, with just glimpses of the way these are arrived at. Putting math on a different pedestal IMO makes it more difficult to reach a better solution to teaching it, rather than seeing where the problems of teaching lie.

    Frankly, everything that's taught in school is boring. You need a good teacher who really likes the subject to make it feel interesting. Even if he or she teaches the exact same material, it'd feel more interesting. That's in my experience, at least.

  199. Another teacher's take by trveler · · Score: 1

    Read "The Seven Lesson Schoolteacher" by John Taylor Gatto. Gatto is an award-winning schoolteacher in New York State, and he takes much the same anaylsis as Lockhart does for math to the entire industry of education. Only Gatto wrote his piece in 1992. http://www.newciv.org/whole/schoolteacher.txt

    --
    ... is whot bwings os tugevza tsuzay.
  200. You missed the point by trveler · · Score: 1

    The author doesn't claim that the point is to get everyone to love it. The author claims that the point is to get everyone to realize what mathematics really is.
    From TFA:
    SALVIATI: If everyone were exposed to mathematics in its natural state, with all the challenging fun and surprises that that entails, I think we would see a dramatic change both in the attitude of students toward mathematics, and in our conception of what it means to be "good at math." We are losing so many potentially gifted mathematicians -- creative, intelligent people who rightly reject what appears to be a meaningless and sterile subject. They are simply too smart to waste their time on such piffle.
    SIMPLICIO: But don't you think that if math class were made more like art class that a lot of kids just wouldn't learn anything?
    SALVIATI: They're not learning anything now! Better to not have math classes at all than to do what is currently being done. At least some people might have a chance to discover something beautiful on their own.
    SIMPLICIO: So you would remove mathematics from the school curriculum?
    SALVIATI: The mathematics has already been removed! The only question is what to do with the vapid, hollow shell that remains. Of course I would prefer to replace it with an active and joyful engagement with mathematical ideas.

    --
    ... is whot bwings os tugevza tsuzay.
  201. Re:Housecats by ChaosDiscord · · Score: 1

    Nope, he's directly addressing both of your goals. He claims that the current system fails at both. Rote memorization and robotic application of cryptic rules doesn't stick with people. So we'll give someone 12 years of math education, but after a few years in the real world they'll only remember maybe the first 5. So what was the point of all that time? Secondly, because math is presented so poorly, many people who might love math are turned off. Worse, some people who enjoy and are good at rote memorization and robotic application might erroneously think they want to be math majors, only to discover that upper level math is a very different beast. As he notes, it's like teaching students musical notation without actually listening to music as a way to discover who might have a love of music. He believes that his proposal may cover less material, but students will actually understand it better and will retain it and will be better able to learn whatever else they need to know. And because they're learning "real" math, the people with a predisposition to loving math have a better chance to discover it.

  202. Gentle Revolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Read about it, it states (with clinical research going back to early 60's), that math is best learned before 3 years old. So all you old morons can't benefit but for the few of you that will reproduce, you can make your children into geniuses.

  203. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's not true if you exclude Hispanics and Blacks. Exclude Hispanics and Blacks, and US White/Asian kids do the same or better as world leaders. As someone who's taught in barrio schools, most Hispanic kids (and I assume Blacks) have severe problems with the US educational system.

    1. Single Motherhood -- this is the big one. Single motherhood is rampant in both these groups, increasing sadly in the White population, and it leads to low resources particularly time for parents, and kids acting out. Boys being hypermasculine or withdrawn, and girls being generally too interested in boys and not enough in school around puberty.

    2. Negative cultural attitudes towards education, which is perceived as "White" and a "sell-out" to racial/ethnic values.

    3. Lower median IQ. It's not very popular, but it is true, that every study ever done, shows consistently a lower median IQ for Blacks (around 85) than Whites (around 100) and Asians coming in around 105. Hispanics come in around 89. This does NOT mean all Blacks and Hispanics have low IQ, but enough of them do that they drag down instruction to their level, making most classes slow, boring and remedial. A huge frustration for the few bright kids, and really a huge drag on the US educational system.

    Let's get real. Mostly White/Asian schools do well because the kids are mostly orderly, behaved, come from two-parent families where the parents are involved and care about the kids, and are committed to Education as a gateway to upward mobility. Mostly Black and Hispanic schools are pits, because the students don't care, gangs are rampant, their parent is a single mother (often chasing the neighborhood thugs), nobody cares, and no one views Education as a gateway to upward mobility. In Ghetto/Barrio schools, the only upward path is through athletics. Which is the only effort kids put forward (particularly for boys, being seen as a "schoolboy" equates to being less masculine, and unworthy of girls). White/Asian boys face this too, but it's not as strong. [Girls face little penalty for being "smart" -- they are either hot or not, it's purely physical.]

    Shrug.

    There have been a FEW schools that have done well with Black/Hispanic kids, they are outside the Public Schools and screen out troublemakers, and emphasize fairly strict discipline, rote memorization, and group identity. They are not replicable because they require highly dedicated and charismatic leaders, and are not "community friendly" i.e. featherbedding for local political machines, and swayed by parents demands. They don't allow gang members for example, require uniforms, and Marine Corps like group indoctrination/spirit. Few communities would stand still for that -- they want niceness rather than results. [Black/Hispanic kids probably can do far better, but it is not politically possible to construct strict discipline schools they need to perform at higher levels, which requires walling off in effect the dysfunctional outside community.]

    But exclude Black/Hispanic schools and US White/Asian kids do in the top of nearly all categories, it's just impolitic and UN-PC to say it. Even though it is in fact true. This should shock no one. By and large, the society in Black/Hispanic communities is dysfunctional and a complete failure. In White/Asian communities, mostly successful. It would be shocking in fact if their schools did not reflect the failure and success of their wider communities.

  204. Re:US School System compared to Europes School Sys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am unsure about the size of my school (freshman class of 500, senior class of 300, 1800 students total) compared to others, but even though we had three different levels of math at my school, some students still did not do well (there own failings) but others couldn't do well enough (there was nothing offered after AP Calc AB - which I finished junior year technically two years ahead of people I was told were "just as smart as I was", and AP Calc BC was not available at my school).

    I tend to think that the problem is above individual schools - at the school boards, NEA, and state and federal testing requirements. The school administrators are being told to run them as cheap diploma mills (meaning no classes less than a specific size no matter what - say goodbye to advanced classes) where no students fail a grade, good teachers aren't rewarded any more or any better than bad teachers (meaning not even the good teachers will bother to help or challenge advanced students that are obviously interested), and yet every student that graduates has to just barely pass a standardized test developed by people who are completely divorced from the concept of teaching or learning (meaning that the focus of the school isn't on promoting the best students to see as far as they can go, the focus is on babying the lazy students - they were very smart about things they were interested in, so they weren't dumb by any stretch of the imagination - so they simply don't fail the test outright).

    But above all, I think the blame lies squarely on the shoulders of the parents of students. They were not interested enough in the future of their kids to care about their kids' intellect or education. The saddest part is that their grandkids will turn out the exact same way, and the cycle continues.

    And there isn't anything you, nor I, nor teachers, nor the government can do to stop the endless cycle. Another brick in the wall, indeed.

  205. It changed a teacher by WhiteHorse-The+Origi · · Score: 1

    I'm a math teacher and what he's saying is completely true. Feedback from a student, like this, is critical to teachers. I completely agree with his ideas about internalizing math and bringing out the artistic side in people. More importantly, he gives us a clue to what and how the learner experiences modern math in a real-world context. I feel his frustration, as do many other teachers, with the standard curriculum of math and the teaching methodologies which have become common in schools. Why can't we paint in painting class? This has the connotation that students are asking: Why can't we calculate in math class? But it's true! My students are always asking why we do things this way or that, why we don't just do math like the world suggests... Instead, we are trapped inside of a regimental rigmarole of successive problem-solving skills which are never expressed in the real world until it's too late! Tomorrow dawns a new era for mathematics teaching(at least at my school).

  206. What to do with math? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have a M. Sc. in math from a highly respected university. Unfortunately, it is damn hard getting a job which really uses my knowledge. Sometimes, it has been a determent. I have been disqualified from jobs because I would be bored after a while. Granted, this is true, but after you have been out of work for a while, you will take a job doing most things.

    So, what do you do with a degree in math, especially in a down economy. Maybe go back and get some training as a auto mechanic? Yes, there will be times when you are not very busy, but on the other hand, you will never be completely unemployed.

    The other problem is that there is no real place for someone without a Ph. D. There probably are lots of Ph. D. out there looking for work tutoring, or doing things using considerably less than all that they know.

    So, what's the sense of really getting people all inspired and fired up with real math, if all you are doing is setting them up for a lifetime of disappointments? Tell them up front that most mathematicians aren't going to amount to a hill of beans, and that is is time to rethink their career choices. I am convinced that mathematicians talk young bright people into studying math so that they will have classrooms full of people in order to justify their career choices, without which them might be in a position to look for alternative choices like a short order chef or rest room attendant.

    Now, I wish that life were different. I wish that every educated mathematician would have plenty of career choices in front of him. Actually, I wish that on all students, but the obvious truth of the matter is that society would rather spend money on rescuing failed banks and auto manufactures developing obsoleted products than using the same money to stimulate the "arts and sciences". I have read that the Soviet Union would do that, but I guess they have failed. Too bad that we haven't realized a capitalistic society when in comes to rescuing billionaires who have made bad bets.

  207. This crap is why we have "Math Explorations." by tillerman35 · · Score: 1

    I'm all for "math is cool," and "let's explore," but this guy seriously torques me off. My kids are currently suffering from the influence of people like him. They have taken the basics out of math and substituted this useless "math explorations" curriculum. Other folks have written better criticisms, but suffice it to say that the vast majority of kids don't benefit from all this "exploration" and "visualization" and the ones who do would have had those epiphanies anyway without any help whatsoever.

    The BETTER way is to stick to the basics and train teachers to recognize kids who have a mathematically artistic talent and then remove them to an environment where it can flourish. That's tough for a couple of reasons. First, those kids might not actually get good grades. The author of TFA is entirely correct that the basics bore them which results in inattention and lack of motivation. Second, when they ARE good, removing them will lower the overall test scores of the class. Since teachers' pay and bonus structures are based on their students' test scores, there would be a strong monetary motivation to intentionally fail to recognize them.

    Assuming that those two problems can be overcome (big assumption there), you continue to train the "artistic" kids in the basics, but only just enough to get by. The rest of the time, you motivate them in a way that would make the author of TFA happy.

    The problem is, people have this wonderful but sadly mistaken belief that ALL kids can benefit from artistic mathematics when in fact most can't. Compounding the problem is the bizarre theory that teaching the artistic mathematics will somehow magically result in the basics becoming trivially easy. It doesn't. And unfortunately, our kids have to fail spectacularly in order to teach the education system this simple fact. "Luckily," that's what they're doing in droves.

  208. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by kthejoker · · Score: 1

    Try doing long divison in Roman numerals.

    Consistent cardinality and scale of symbolic digits is a major step forward in maths.

  209. This is now a book by lee1 · · Score: 2, Informative

    I didn't see in the comments, and the story submitter doesn't mention, that this essay, which is from 2002, has blossomed recently (April, 2009) into a book.

  210. Re:The way math is structured is disconnected from by badkarmadayaccount · · Score: 1

    No wonder they are among the world's biggest opium producers...

    --
    I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
  211. Re:Single Best Fix: Introducing Discrete Mathemati by Gospodin · · Score: 1

    Er.. the "symbol manipulation rules", _are_ plug and chug.

    I just got around to reading the whole 25-page PDF today, so I see the author of TFA is using a different meaning of "plug and chug" than I was. You see the importance of agreeing on definitions ahead of time.

    If a student insisted on calling right angle "pigpens", I think I'd tolerate it for about 5 minutes unless he was the second coming of Ramanujan. :)

    --
    ...following the principles of Heisenburger's Uncertain Cat...
  212. Re:Single Best Fix: Introducing Discrete Mathemati by mysidia · · Score: 1

    I gotta agree, calling right angles "pigpens" is nuts. I would find "corner" acceptable, unless they're doing something like repeatedly calling right triangles, "a triangle with a corner".

    If a word has a generally agreed upon definition, then the student shouldn't define it to be something else.

    Also, if a generally agreed upon word to refer to something exists, the student must pick one of them, or provide a very good reason for using a different word. Vocabulary is just as important in the study of mathematics as it is in English class.

    The field of Mathematics isn't just about solving problems, it's also about effectively and accurately communicating the ingenious solutions to problems that you find.

    An understanding of common definitions used by mathematicians is fundamental, and students should learn to speak the same language, even if their dialect varies a bit from problem to problem.

  213. Flamebait? by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

    Oh come on mods! Clearly there are 10 responses to this joke: either you understand it or you don't.

  214. Non-Truth-Suffused by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Submitter's claim: "I defy you to read and find a single sentence that isn't permeated, suffused, soaked, and encrusted with truth."

    Well, Scott Aaronson, your defiance is unsuccessful. I found one. Bottom of page 8:
    "Here is a simple and elegant question, and it requires no effort to be made appealing."

    I didn't find the question appealing, so it WOULD require some effort to make it so. The sentence is a claim based on the subjective experience of the reader and can't be truth.

    So yeah, I'm being a pedantic ass, but Scott, DON'T BE A LYING SENSATIONALIST. Next time just say you agree with the entire essay and you think everyone else will too, which is what you tried to say, but FAILED due to wanting to sound cool.

  215. About the actual man by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.maa.org/devlin/devlin_03_08.html

    "Paul is a mathematics teacher at Saint Ann's School in Brooklyn, New York... "

    and

    'After several years teaching university mathematics, Paul eventually tired of it and decided he wanted to get back to teaching children. He secured a position at Saint Ann's School, where he says "I have happily been subversively teaching mathematics (the real thing) since 2000."

    'He teaches all grade levels at Saint Ann's (K-12), and says he is especially interested in bringing a mathematician's point of view to very young children. "I want them to understand that there is a playground in their minds and that that is where mathematics happens. So far I have met with tremendous enthusiasm among the parents and kids, less so among the mid-level administrators," he wrote in an email to me.'

  216. What do you suggest Kemosabe? by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    That in order to avoid plug-and-chug we develop the corresponding mathematical theory to solve an equation or make an integral?

    Once you are done and dusted with the theory behind a concept then you proceed to apply the concept as needed.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.