Stuck Knob Causes Serious Window Damage To Atlantis

FTL writes "While in orbit a metal knob floated between a window and the dashboard of Atlantis. Once back on Earth, the shuttle contracted, wedging the knob firmly in place and damaging the window. Initial attempts to free the knob have failed and engineers may need six months to disassemble that section of the orbiter. Given that the shuttle program will probably end next year anyway, such a delay might mean scrapping Atlantis early rather than repairing it. Efforts to remove the knob using less invasive techniques continue."

Comments

The Inanimate Carbon Knob!

[eldavojohn]

The article neglects to mention the extreme disappointment of John M. Grunsfeld who spent the majority of Mission STS-125 photographing a strange phenomenon he could witness through his window but could not detect on radar. A large knob-shaped object would move about above the atmosphere with an almost supernatural fluidity and change of speeds relative to the Earth. He neglected to mention it to his crewmates hoping that he had stumbled upon either the first contact with alien life or observed a new phenomenon he dubbed in his journal "Grunsfeld's Effect." Unfortunately the engineers at NASA have immortalized his name by calling the stuck debris "Grunsfeld's Knob" or "Grunsfeld's God." The engineers have also started referring to being duped as "being grunsfelded." Example: "I called up to order some of those damn Video Professor instructional DVDs and ended up with 8 of the stupid things. Man did I get Grunsfelded!"

Re:The Inanimate Carbon Knob!

[googlesmith123]

James Grundsfeld (previously known as James May).

Re:The Inanimate Carbon Knob!

[dziban303]

I smiled. A little.

Re:The Inanimate Carbon Knob!

[MightyMartian]

James Grundsfeld (previously known as James May).

Did he have a sex change?

Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[afidel]

Or is that only an outer protective layer? I know I've seen pictures of the pitting that micrometeors and paint flecks have caused on the Shuttles while in orbit, I just assumed they were made to be easily replaced.

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[pz]

Or is that only an outer protective layer? I know I've seen pictures of the pitting that micrometeors and paint flecks have caused on the Shuttles while in orbit, I just assumed they were made to be easily replaced.

The article isn't wholly clear, but implies that there are three layers of glass, only the outer one gets replaced. The inner ones have never been replaced on any shuttle. The innermost one is the most important for retaining the internal pressure, and is the one that has sustained damage.

And to be clear, if you read the article, it's obvious that the engineers working on this are SERIOUS and have thought of just about anything that slashdot readers have come up with. Drill/cut? Too high risk because of (a) vibrations transmitted to the window and microgrinding of the knob against the window and (b) metallic dust it will generate. Pressurize orbiter? Yep. For some reason, they think they can only get it to +3 PSI. Might help. Apply cold to the knob to shrink it? Yep. They tried dry ice. Didn't work. (My guess is that they'll try liquid nitrogen, too at some point.) They're planning on trying dry ice and pressurization at the same time. Apply downward pressure to the dash with a crobar? Probably very risky because of unknown damage it might cause to dash.

Once the knob is out, they'll make visual inspection of the remaining surface, including taking microscopic moldings to assess the damage. The pane is tempered, so scratches are a big problem, as they can lead to spontaneous, catastrophic failure.

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[seyyah]

Or is that only an outer protective layer? .... I just assumed they were made to be easily replaced.

No, sadly, the knob's outer, protective layer can not be easily replaced (cf circumcision).

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[TooMuchToDo]

Sounds like they'll just have to scrap this orbiter early.

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder if it would be possible to use something that's abrasive enough to wear it away without applying enough pressure to cause substantial vibrations. Maybe something like a rotating wire brush.

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[Grishnakh]

Have they tried a powerful excimer laser?

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[Anonymous Coward]

Excellent and informed analysis. However, I think it is unlikely that "metal" knob could scratch glass. See the Moh hardness scale.

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[matrim99]

All they need to solve this (or any) problem is some Mighty Putty (TM) and a Slap Chop (TM). You know the Germans make good stuff!

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[Brian Gordon]

I for one am completely comfortable with calling in a local contractor and installing some new money-saving vinyl windows which will be the only thing between me and seventeen thousand mile per hour wind.

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[pz]

Excellent and informed analysis. However, I think it is unlikely that "metal" knob could scratch glass. See the Moh hardness scale.

Hmm. You're saying you know what the knob is made of, and what the surface treatment of that material is? If, for example, it's aluminum with an anodization (as it looks to be in the photo), it may well scratch the glass. Scratching isn't the only issue, though, as if sufficient pressure has been applied, localized microscopic deformation might have occurred as well. If the compression layer of the tempered glass has been breached, the glass will fail. If it has been damaged beyond the stated engineering guidelines, as described in the article, the window will need to be replaced. The close up image in the article shows what appears to be damage to the glass at two points where the glass contacts the knob.

It's a simple problem that many of us have faced in one situation or another where something small has managed to get wedged where it shouldn't, and requires extraction. The difference here is that there are serious, and potentially highly costly, either in dollars or in human life, or both, potential ramifications to performing the extraction badly.

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[geekoid]

They are easy to replace FOR A SPACE SHIP.

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[DigitAl56K]

Why not spray a sealant around the surrounding materials, lay in an extraction nozzle attached to a pump, pour a mold around it then use a chemical to dissolve the metal, at least the edges of the metal, enough to remove it? No vibrations, no pressure, no crazy coolant or heating solutions. You can pick a site to work on that is least risk, such as the area in contact with the glass (assuming the glass isn't affected by the chemicals dissolving the metal).

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[Anonymous Coward]

Other ideas that probably won't work:
-- Thaw out one of the aliens from Hangar 18 to spit on the knob and dissolve it.
-- Beam the knob out of there using NASA's experimental teleportation device.
-- Eliminate the space between the atoms in the knob, causing it to shrink to the size of an amoeba.
-- Use the sun's gravity to travel back in time to before the knob got stuck.
-- WD40.
-- Have the holographic doctor reach through the windshield and poke the knob out.
-- Talk to the knob. Teach it Phenomenology.
-- Wait until the knob's warranty expires, then it will fall to pieces on its own.
 

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[radtea]

Too high risk because of (a) vibrations transmitted to the window and microgrinding of the knob against the window

This makes no sense. There may be other reasons for not cutting, but these can't be them.

Cutting would obviously be done by hand, or with a very slow speed reciprocating saw, which produce minimal vibration. They'd probably encase the whole thing in epoxy first to further reduce vibration. More importantly, if the choice is a) scrap the shuttle early for sure or b) risk having to scrap it due to damage done during knob removal, the choice is so obvious that only a NASA engineer could get it wrong.

If scratches can lead to "spontaneous catastrophic failure" in the window material then obviously there is zero risk because the window must have a strong scratch-proof covering, probably a thin layer of plexiglas or similar. Otherwise trivial incidents over the course of the shuttle's working life would pose an unacceptable risk--anything breaking loose on re-entry, in particular, could scratch the surface if it was not heavily protected.

There may be good reasons why the knob is not removable, but they aren't the ones you suggest. Personally, I'm wondering why engineers rather than machinists are working on this problem. Engineers don't have the appropriate hands-on skills to deal with it. Machinists do.

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[petermgreen]

The trouble is that requires a lot of very expensive dismantling and reassembly. Also with the winding down of the shuttle program the facility that would normally have done such a procedure is no longer operational.

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[ijakings]

Arent they forgetting the first thing any competent engineer should do to something that has gone wrong? Hitting it with a big screwdriver and/or hammer.

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[Nefarious Wheel]

My guess is that they'll try liquid nitrogen, too at some point

...no doubt followed by the tap of a tiny hammer and the sounds of a vacuum cleaner.

My guess is they're also considering removing the knob who allowed this piece of debris to float around unsecured.

What's the knob made out of, anyone here know? If it's plastic or pure aluminium, they might call a good chemist.

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[russotto]

And to be clear, if you read the article, it's obvious that the engineers working on this are SERIOUS and have thought of just about anything that slashdot readers have come up with.

Thought of, but not tried yet (because they're the boring kind of engineer who considers every possibility and worries about life safety, not the cavalier "hey, try this" type that only kills people, oh, 40% of the time). My idea was to just push on the window (evenly) until the gap opens; it's made to take pressure after all. This is basically the "air bladder" idea, which they haven't tried yet. My other idea was to construct a pressure chamber around the outside of the window and evacuate it, but that's probably not practical.

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[C0vardeAn0nim0]

many glass cutters are made of steel. hell, my swiss army knife can scratch most glasses...

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[ozmanjusri]

And to be clear, if you read the article, it's obvious that the engineers working on this are SERIOUS and have thought of just about anything that slashdot readers have come up with.

Nuke it from orbit.

It's the only way to be sure.

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[electrostatic]

"Crew module skin expands while in orbit due to 14.7 psi internal pressure; flight deck floor deflection may also contribute to the relative movement between the console's dash and the CM window area."

Since the shuttle will obviously handle a 14.7 psi differential pressure, why don't they pump it up to 14.7 plus atmospheric (also about 14.7). That should expand the skin away from the panel.

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[dissy]

Otherwise trivial incidents over the course of the shuttle's working life would pose an unacceptable risk--anything breaking loose on re-entry, in particular, could scratch the surface if it was not heavily protected.

I'm fairly sure any and every time something 'broke loose on re-entry' inside of the cabin, they would definitely put a halt on future launches until they fixed that problem.

Typically all of the harshness happens _outside_ of the shuttle, not on the inside where this knob is affecting things.

If something outside the shuttle made it through all of the multiple layers of glass to get to the inside most layer (where the problem now is), that would near instantly cause full cabin depressurization, and loss of crew. It would not be flown again for years (if ever) if that happened anyway.

And they do state right in the article that they replace the outside most layer of glass on each launch anyway, so any damage that makes it through that one layer is basically gone before the next flight.

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[pz]

Cutting would obviously be done by hand, or with a very slow speed reciprocating saw, which produce minimal vibration. They'd probably encase the whole thing in epoxy first to further reduce vibration.

Movement of the knob against the glass, no matter how slow, is potentially going to grind the glass away. Encasing the knob in epoxy isn't going to help unless the epoxy is also adhering to the glass to prevent relative motion between the knob and glass. And, in that case, there's the difficulty of removing the epoxy afterward. Could be done, but probably not a very good approach, and certainly not without risk.

If scratches can lead to "spontaneous catastrophic failure" in the window material then obviously there is zero risk because the window must have a strong scratch-proof covering, probably a thin layer of plexiglas or similar. Otherwise trivial incidents over the course of the shuttle's working life would pose an unacceptable risk--anything breaking loose on re-entry, in particular, could scratch the surface if it was not heavily protected.

The article (you did read the article before spouting off, right?) does not describe any coating that I saw. It does, however, describe the minimum acceptable damage to the outer stressed layer of the glass. Recall this is thermally stressed (aka Pyrex) glass, and if the outer compression layer is breached, it can, and does, lead to spontaneous catastrophic failure. That's why there are guidelines as to how deep a scratch is acceptable. Also recall that the compression layer is not one atomic layer, such that the glass can sustain some damage before failing. Note that this would still be true if there were any sort of plastic coating as well -- there would still be some limit of acceptable damage before risk of failure is too high.

More importantly, if the choice is a) scrap the shuttle early for sure or b) risk having to scrap it due to damage done during knob removal, the choice is so obvious that only a NASA engineer could get it wrong.

[snip]

Personally, I'm wondering why engineers rather than machinists are working on this problem. Engineers don't have the appropriate hands-on skills to deal with it. Machinists do.

Did you learn somewhere that there are no machinists working on the problem? Do you know engineers working at NASA, so you have the experience to make blanket statements about their ability like that? It just so happens that I do know engineers at NASA, and at some of their subcontractors. One can argue whether they are absolutely the very best in the world or not, but they are certainly world-class, and a damned sight better than any run-of-the-mill engineers around. Listen, these aren't stupid people. It is rocket science, and rocket science is hard. If you have never been to Johnson, I highly recommend it. And you can bet that if you or I had an idea after cogitating for 2 minutes about the extraction problem, someone who's job depends on it, who likely has a degree in aero-astro from MIT, who realizes the potential ramifications of screwing up, and who has spent many hours thinking about it non-stop, has already come up with it. Like asking a machinist for his thoughts.

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[Tobenisstinky]

Why not just pressurize the shuttle; it is air tight...

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[tagno25]

or just de-pressurize the room/building to make the conditions similar to what it is in space

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[cyn1c77]

And to be clear, if you read the article, it's obvious that the engineers working on this are SERIOUS and have thought of just about anything that slashdot readers have come up with. Drill/cut? Too high risk because of (a) vibrations transmitted to the window and microgrinding of the knob against the window and (b) metallic dust it will generate.

They should set up an EDM (electric discharge machine) in there and cut the knob in half with zero vibrations. Or they could just get a laser cutting machine. But, hey, I don't work for NASA, I only see these things working in the machine shop. Just keep rubbing dry ice on it though, I am sure that will do the trick.

Personally, I would scrap the whole shuttle and build something that was a little more modular. Because 6 months to replace a part is ridiculous.

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[Kell Bengal]

That's actually a well thought out and considered post. Thank you!

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[Kell Bengal]

Hah! A dark star reference - made my day.

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[Kell Bengal]

There may be good reasons why the knob is not removable, but they aren't the ones you suggest. Personally, I'm wondering why engineers rather than machinists are working on this problem. Engineers don't have the appropriate hands-on skills to deal with it. Machinists do.

I run into this attitude a lot as an engineer; there is this perception (typically amongst technicians and workshop staff) that engineers are hopeless for anything than high falutin' maths with no real application. It bugs the hell out of me.

An engineer who has no understanding of practical systems does not stay employed for long. I'll wager most people do not undergo the years of training necessary to be an engineer unless they have a real interest in what they're doing and the desire to make stuff that works (or else they become consultants). I have yet to meet an engineer who does not build things in his own time for the pleasure of it, and who has no hands-on skills whatsoever.

We may not be machinists (although many of us are in our spare time - I drive a CNC mill for fun) but give us some credit - we're not completely clueless.

Regarding the problem at hand, how many machinists do you know who are materials surface micro-structure experts with experience in the fracture mechanics of material interfaces? Any?

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[Hognoxious]

I assume they've tried hitting it?

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[serutan]

Glad somebody got that! /my post, accidentally anonymous

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[speculatrix]

NEW! microsoft knob7 - better and more securely stuck in place than vista-knob.

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[speculatrix]

damn, an expert, using both a hammer AND a screwdriver at the SAME TIME!!

me, I've only mastered the hammer, but when I do my masters in engineering I hope to be able to use screwdrivers and when in my PhD use them simultaneously.

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[GuyWithLag]

That *is* the vista (view) knob!

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[X0563511]

The hardness scale doesn't take into account the pressure that a bladed edge can exert on the material.

Glass cutters put quite a lot of pressure into a small area...

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is nasa, who spent millions on making a pen that can write in space.

whilst the russians just used pencils. etc.

This is the same NASA that made the space shuttle program top priority and set US space exploration BACK. Doing less for much more money in contrast to the 1960's when the biggest advances in space exploration were happening.

So, they wont go the most obvious route or even the route that will cost the less and more than likely take the least time and wont harm anything, What they will do is make sure this costs as much money as possible and takes months, even years to fix, just to ensure they get more money, so someone near the top can afford a new car and a vacation to the Bahamas.

attempting the repressurize the cabin just enough so the knob can be pulled free of the window would probably work if done right. Then again, we'll get the excuse "oh well see it has to be done such and such a way..."

Yeah, tell the Apollo 13 guys that.

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[jdigriz]

No, nasa did not spend millions of dollars on a pen. Free enterprise did. http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.asp

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[broggyr]

...not to mention that they tilt in for easy cleaning ^^

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder how someone accidentally posts anonymously...

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[BrokenHalo]

I assume they've tried hitting it?
If they did, they obviously needed to try a bigger hammer. ;-)

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[BrokenHalo]

Alternatively, remembering the two physical constants: if you want to stop something moving, use duct tape. If you want something to move, use WD40.

The latter might work. Just so long as they don't get that WD40 on any duct tape, otherwise they'll blow up the Universe...

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[DrgnDancer]

Not to mention that AFTER the 17,000 mph wind it then gets to be the only thing between my pressurized life support environment and the infinite vacuum of space for the next 2-3 weeks. Given that, I think NASA should pay extra for the triple glazed windows.

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[amoeba1911]

It's a simple problem that many of us have faced in one situation or another where something small has managed to get wedged where it shouldn't, and requires extraction.

Like that guy who managed to got his cell phone wedged in his ass and required extraction?

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[4181]

The article states they can only get it to +3 psi, but does not say why. (I'd love to know.) Perhaps instruments (maybe avionics and other displays) inside the shuttle should not be exposed to more than 18 psi absolute.

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[K. S. Kyosuke]

Seems we have a new proverb: For want of no knob, .... the shuttle program was lost. :-)

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[dougmc]

The shuttle is big. I don't know if there are any rooms/buildings big enough that could hold it (and it could be gotten into them) and could be de-pressurized to anything anywhere close to a vacuum.

Pressurizing the shuttle itself seems a lot simpler ...

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[dougmc]

WD40 brings up duct tape.

Put some duct tape around it so it can't go anywhere. Then wait for the next mission. Once the shuttle has expanded, pull it and the duct tape out.

Not that NASA would do this, as there's a tiny but non-zero chance that something important was damaged, but ...

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[marciot]

They don't want to dissolve the knob... do you have any idea how much the "knob that grounded the shuttle" will fetch on eBay? Enough for one or two more Hubble repair missions, at least.

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[toddestan]

The problem with that is there would be a mess of fine metal shavings which would probably end up in some hard-to-clean location, and could be very hazardous in zero-g if they missed finding any of them.

Re:Aren't the windshields replaced all the time?

[Tablizer]

Interesting idea, but it seems its hard to guarantee the corrosive won't leak anywhere; especially working in such a tight space.

Magnets.

[Anonymous Coward]

Magnets are good tools.

Re:Magnets.

[CarpetShark]

So is leaving something there when it's stuck ;)

finally, a use for a dremel tool

[cats-paw]

they can borrow mine. I never use it.

Re:finally, a use for a dremel tool

[Crunchie Frog]

they can borrow mine. I never use it.

I read your comment before reading your title and assumed you meant your knob.

Re:finally, a use for a dremel tool

[maharg]

belly lol.. me too ;o)

Re:finally, a use for a dremel tool

[Anonymous Coward]

20 minutes with the cutting wheel and I'd have that thing out. I use mine all of the time.

Re:finally, a use for a dremel tool

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure!!!! spread knob flakes and grindings all over precious NASA electronic Equipment!

That will make the shuttle work real good, mmmmhuh

Re:finally, a use for a dremel tool

[Grishnakh]

Surely a powerful vacuum cleaner with a special nozzle surrounding the knob would eliminate this problem.

Re:finally, a use for a dremel tool

[phillips321]

I'm sure one of these vacuum monsters is good enough.....

Re:finally, a use for a dremel tool

[CarpetShark]

I read your comment before reading your title and assumed you meant your knob.

He meant that, since discovering the dremel tool, he no longer uses his knob.

Re:finally, a use for a dremel tool

[geekoid]

I about wore mine out, can I have yours?
since you not using it.

Re:finally, a use for a dremel tool

[sjs132]

Engineers will never sink to such "low tech" solutions... My wife is a Mechanical Engineer and is ALWAYS over thinking problems. This is probably another case of the same. I agree that a cutting tool of sometype would be easy to do, and quickly done would minimize damage. The glass is already scored, the stress fractures are already present, if they have any hope of getting it out, the damage is already done. After removal, they will try and find a way to use a scanning xray microscope to take pictures to try and figure out the total damage to the glass. That will also slow them down. The urge to scrap the shuttle because of the knob stuckage is because they want a shiney new toy. Out with the old, lets build a new one. After all, they are part of the US governemtent's FIRST transportation industry and they get lots of $$$ to build/maintain a few models a year. Wait untill a new "Government Motor" car comes out and you have to take it in for a service call... hehehehehee... there is a reason the term "Good enough for Government work" exists!

Re:finally, a use for a dremel tool

[GargamelSpaceman]

Ya know, that seems like it should work, I mean cut the frikken knob into little pieces using dremel tool rather than try to get it out intact. It's a frikken knob! Destroy it, don't insist on removing it in one piece.

Obvious

[Tablizer]

Once back on Earth, the shuttle contracted, wedging the knob firmly in place

Simple solution: take the shuttle back up. Others have done it before.
     

Re:Obvious

[fiannaFailMan]

Once back on Earth, the shuttle contracted, wedging the knob firmly in place

Simple solution: take the shuttle back up. Others have done it before.

TFA disagrees:

'Fly as is' is not an option, unknown damage and loads to the glass could result in failure during the flight, with no redundancy; dynamic failure could result in redundant pane failure.

Re:Obvious

[Anonymous Coward]

Doh! Stop ruining jokes with facts and logic. It's like going to lunch with a Vulcan.

Re:Obvious

[Pontiac]

Gee and I was thinking why not just put it into the giant vacuum chamber they just finished building
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/constellation/orion/vacuum_chamber.html

Re:Obvious

[Pontiac]

Never mind.. the doors are only 50' x 50'

http://facilities.grc.nasa.gov/spf/capabilities.html

Re:Obvious

[camperdave]

The vacuum of space is a good ten times as "hard" as the best vacuum we can attain here on Earth. Even if you could get the shuttle into the vacuum chambre, there's still a good possibility that it doesn't suck enough.

Re:Obvious

[jcwayne]

...there's still a good possibility that it doesn't suck enough.

Not likely, the control system runs on Vista.

NASA forgot low tech approaches?

[sznupi]

Saw. The one in the form of elastic cutting "wire".

Re:NASA forgot low tech approaches?

[Anonymous Coward]

Saw. The one in the form of elastic cutting "wire".

Not sure what kind of saw you are talking about, the NASA personnel considered using a dentist drill. Why did they decide against it? FTFA:

Con's: Potential for tool vibration to be transferred through knob into window induce additional window damage. Debris release from cutting. Knob would only be cut enough for tech to yield the piece

Would the kind of saw you are talking about work without produce vibrations that could cause damage to the window?

Re:NASA forgot low tech approaches?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, so long as it's a LAZER SAW

Re:NASA forgot low tech approaches?

[Anonymous Coward]

In all seriousness... why not use a laser to cut it? Are they afraid that heating it up would cause it to expand more, and crack the window further (a concern not mentioned with the 'drill' approach, but certainly valid)?

Re:NASA forgot low tech approaches?

[Animats]

The problem is getting it out without dumping metal particles all over the place. But they'll think of something, probably something that involves a cutting tool and a suction system.

Re:NASA forgot low tech approaches?

[sznupi]

Powerful magnets tend to be good in collecting those... (coupled with some industrial "vacuum cleaner" and sealing off the area)

Re:NASA forgot low tech approaches?

[sznupi]

The kind of saw that is basically just a wire with two loops at the end (by which you grab it). Hand operated, minimal vibrations (well, it may take a week or two...but they don't have shortage of personnel)

As for debris - powerful magnets + sealing off the area & industrial vacuum cleaner with HEPA filters?

Re:NASA forgot low tech approaches?

[Anonymous Coward]

You said that already.

Re:NASA forgot low tech approaches?

[EkriirkE]

I'd think any kind of abrasive tool (a saw is an abrasion tool) would cause a lot of vibration.

Re:NASA forgot low tech approaches?

[lgw]

Yeah, why didn't those rocket scientists think of using a magnet to clean up aluminum dust - what losers!

Re:NASA forgot low tech approaches?

[John Hasler]

Magnets for aluminum. Sure.

Re:NASA forgot low tech approaches?

[sznupi]

Because obviously that's the only metal that will be involved (hint: cutting something involves also a cutting tool).

And magnets are obviously the only countermeasure I've proposed.

Re:NASA forgot low tech approaches?

[sznupi]

Every saw is made of aluminum in your part of the world?

Re:NASA forgot low tech approaches?

[Hognoxious]

Every saw is made of aluminum in your part of the world?

If bits of the saw are coming off you're doing it wrong.

Re:NASA forgot low tech approaches?

[sznupi]

If bits of the saw are coming off you're living in the real world. Just a matter of proportion.

And if you want to minimize the risk of contamination with articulate bits of metal...

Re:NASA forgot low tech approaches?

[Hognoxious]

Just admit that you didn't undertand John Hasler's post, and then die or something.

Re:NASA forgot low tech approaches?

[sznupi]

You'd have to find bullets made of iron or its alloys (well, alternatively nickel or cobalt but those are significantly rarer)

missed opportunity

[Tablizer]

Title suggestion: "Shuttle has a Wedgie"
   

Space Knob: Astronauts Gone Wild

[Anonymous Coward]

In the event of a dildo we're not allowed to imply ownership, we have to use the indefinite article; "a" dildo, never "your" dildo.

mmmm ...

[Anonymous Coward]

I could eat a knob at night ....

Why not drill it?

[inject_hotmail.com]

Might sound kinda kinky, but why not drill the stuck knob?

Make it look like Swiss cheese...should eventually collapse on itself. Use a magnet and vacuum to catch the filings.

Hey...it's not rocket science...oh wait.

Re:Why not drill it?

[geekoid]

It's knob science.

Well, it works with dogs...

[hyades1]

Throw a bucket of cold water on it and the knob should slip right out.

Re:Well, it works with dogs...

[Anonymous Coward]

Or a swift kick in the bollocks.

Re:Well, it works with dogs...

[multipartmixed]

How did you get a knob stuck in a dog?

Re:Well, it works with dogs...

[adolf]

I think he was talking about this, which has something to do with this.

Hope this helps.

Re:Well, it works with dogs...

[drooling-dog]

Throw a bucket of cold water on it and the knob should slip right out.

Maybe so, but that solution wouldn't require the full 6 months allotted.

Call a Cleatis the shadetree mechanic

[cockpitcomp]

Really any grey-hared mechanic will have a trick odd-ball stuff like this. Or build a giant vacuum chamber / oven to expand the thing out. Or warp field bubble?

Re:Call a Cleatis the shadetree mechanic

[Bigjeff5]

I'd go with option C: warp field bubble.

Cletus can't provide enough assurances he won't break things in the extraction, and we currently don't have the technology to create a vacuum big enough that also replicates the conditions of space.

since the shuttle programming is so old

[circletimessquare]

and is underfunded and ending soon anyways, give atlantis the same proper ghetto treatment a contemporary of its time would receive, like 25 year old plymouth horizon: plastic sheeting and duct tape

also knock out a back tail light and finger daub "wash me" in the cosmic dust on its hood

Re:since the shuttle programming is so old

[Gazzonyx]

Any thoughts on rims? I thinking gold (plated) spinners are in order...

Well...

[locoztx]

it's knobody's fault. Sorry.

Re:Well...

[the phantom]

No you aren't. :(

Re:Well...

[geekoid]

not sorry enough.

Re:physics

[eldavojohn]

why not just put it in a vacuum chamber, warm it up, and slide it on out?

What, you mean like they discussed in the article? They even came up with a better idea: instead of heating up the whole vessel, just freeze the knob with dry ice!

The options relating to the application of dry ice to shrink the knob have already been attempted, and failed. However, the same method, along with a pressurization of the Crew Module, may be enough to free the knob from its lodged position.

The only problem is the amount of pressurization that can be conducted in the OPF is far less than the pressure that played a part in allowing the knob to become embedded in the first place.

Pressurize crew module and dry ice on knob to TBD (To Be Determined) pressure. Pro's: Could allow for uniform structural deflection to increase gap between pressure pane and dashboard; enough to free up the knob non-destructively. Less potential for inducing further damage to the pane.

**UPDATE: The above option was selected on Thursday as the opening process for an attempt to remove the knob. The cabin will be pressurized to 3 psid, before an engineer will apply dry ice to the knob. This option is not deemed to be a likely solution, but more so the opening option that avoids additional damage to the window.**

Although it's lengthy, you should try reading the article next time. The guys at NASA are pretty clever.

Blow it up

[mykepredko]

Seriously, I mean increase the pressure inside the shuttle until you have the same differential as in space, which should cause the windows to expand just as they did in space and then pull out the knob.

myke

Re:Blow it up

[janeuner]

There are various components inside the crew module (for example, a CRT display) which enclose a high vacuum. The outer shell of these components must withstand a certain pressure differential - in this case, 14.7 psid outside the enclosure to 0 psid on the inside.

If they were to recreate the overall condition of being in space, they would have to compress the cabin to 29.4 psid. This would apply twice as much force to the CRT display enclosure - twice as much as it was designed for. It would be very likely that many such components would implode and spread the damage to every corner of the cabin.

If they do as you suggest, expect hundreds of millions of dollars in damage.

Re:blow it up

[janeuner]

It is supposed to take 1 atmosphere of pressure more than the outside, yes?

The pressure cabin? Yes. All the junk inside the Pressure cabin? Not likely...

Re:Blow it up

[pz]

Seriously, I mean increase the pressure inside the shuttle until you have the same differential as in space, which should cause the windows to expand just as they did in space and then pull out the knob.

myke

Read the article. They've considered doing just that in a couple of different ways, using both cabin pressure, and local bladders inflated between dash and windshield.

Re:blow it up

[whoever57]

Why not just pump 10 bar of pressure into the space scuttle so that the gap opens up again? It is supposed to take 1 atmosphere of pressure more than the outside, yes?

How many ways are there to say RTFA!

Re:Blow it up

[Jherico]

Not to mention that a structure designed to take that differential in a zero gravity environment might not respond the same way to it under 1 gravity.

Re:Blow it up

[Anonymous Coward]

Fry: "How many athmospheres can the ship withstand?" Farnsworth: "Well, it's a space ship. So I'd say anywhere between zero and one."

Re:blow it up

[Bigjeff5]

You must be new here.

Re:blow it up

[Anonymous Coward]

Obligatory:

Fry: How many atmospheres can the ship withstand?
Professor Hubert Farnsworth: Well, it was built for space travel, so anywhere between zero and one.

blow it up

[zmollusc]

Why not just pump 10 bar of pressure into the space scuttle so that the gap opens up again? It is supposed to take 1 atmosphere of pressure more than the outside, yes?

Listen to the radio ads

[Chelloveck]

They need to call one of those chip-and-crack auto glass replacement people that I hear on the radio all the time. They come out to your workplace to do the job, and best of all, you only pay the insurance deductible!

Re:Listen to the radio ads

[El_Oscuro]

Been there, done that. One my old Camaro, removing the dash to replace the speakers was surprisingly easy. The problem is there is not much room to strip the wires for the new ones, and the wire strippers slipped, resulting in a nice big star crack in the windshield. $300 to replace. Doh! I wonder what the deductible is for the space shuttle?

Been there done that

[Tablizer]

I know how they feel: Toyota's quoting me $400 to fix a loose sun visor because they have to take the entire @&%#! side of the car apart to get to it.
   

Re:Been there done that

[Grishnakh]

That's why I'm glad I have a Honda: each sun visor is only held on with two screws which are not obscured in any way.

Re:Been there done that

[Tablizer]

Let's let Honda build the Orion capsule.
     

Re:Been there done that

[tinkerghost]

I know how they feel: Toyota's quoting me $400 to fix a loose sun visor because they have to take the entire @&%#! side of the car apart to get to it.

Try replacing a heater core in a modern car - usually the entire dash assembly has to be removed to get it out. Figure out how much a factory shop is going to charge you for that.

Better than the Chevy 2.8L transverse V6 I suppose. The section of the shop manual for replacing spark plugs starts with: "Unbolt the dogbone and engine mounts and rotate the engine forward". Yes, to replace the sparkplugs you're supposed to unbolt the fucking engine from the car.

If car mfg's come up with this crap - think how much more convoluted your average rocket jockey is going to be when he comes up with something that's only supposed to be replaced once every 2 to 3 vehicles.

Re:Been there done that

[Grishnakh]

That's not a bad idea, really. It's too bad the Japanese don't have an economy large and strong enough to support large-scale space exploration, because they would probably do an excellent job with their engineering expertise.

The future for the American space program certainly doesn't look so bright; I really wonder where they expect to get scientists and engineers in the next decade or two. Most of the ones at NASA are probably about to either retire or keel over by now, and we're not exactly producing many replacements.

Re:Been there done that

[CodeBuster]

Get yourself a $2 pair of gas station sun glasses instead of paying Toyota $400 to fix something which will inevitably break again.

Re:Been there done that

[blair1q]

yeah, but on the toyota, there are no screws visible (when the panel is not in place and covering the mount)

Re:Been there done that

[Mal-2]

What kind of loose? The passenger side visor in my car is loose in the sense that the visor will not willingly stay flush against the ceiling. My solution was way less than $400 -- I attached the hook side of a piece of Velcro to the visor. The cloth ceiling liner, plus what little resistance remains in the mechanism, is enough to keep the visor from drooping except in the most exceptional circumstances (like hitting a speed bump I didn't see at 45 mph).

For $400 I think a little ghetto-rigging is in order, as long as you can do it in a way that will go unnoticed.

Mal-2

Re:Been there done that

[karnal]

I've helped a friend replace 2 different heater cores, both on similar vehicles (88 or so tbird, and a lincoln mark something of similar year) and they are indeed a pain.

I have a 78 cougar sitting in my garage that I've had to replace the heater core on. Awesomely enough, the engineers put the core on the engine side of the firewall. 2 bolts and hose removals later, the core was out. I'd hate to see where the heater core is at in my 99 Grand Marquis..... much less my wife's freestyle.

Re:Been there done that

[adolf]

I've replaced the plugs in a 3.4l Chevy, and I tell you this: Taking loose the mounts at the top/front of the motor and working the engine forward was the easy part. It's just two bolts, and then you just sort of tug on the motor with your hands (it's pretty well balanced), and - voila - you've got room to work.

After that, came the hard part: Removing 12 year old spark plugs, which were factory-installed 190k miles ago.

Re:Been there done that

[Tablizer]

It is slightly droopy, but the bigger problem is that when I move it to the left side for the side window, which is usually sun-lit on the way home from work (I head north to home), it's not in its locking cradle, and it swings on turns and smacks me in the face. It's also sun-lit on the left on the way to work (do the sky-math), and when I'm running a bit late, it smacks me even harder because of faster turns. I suppose it's a good substitute for coffee: a good slap in the face is certainly a waker-upper. But coffee tastes better.

And no, I don't like sunglasses for reasons I won't go into (per other response). It was a good suggestion though.

I'm thinking of jamming glue into the joint next.
     

Re:Been there done that

[jpm242]

Better than the Chevy 2.8L transverse V6 I suppose. The section of the shop manual for replacing spark plugs starts with: "Unbolt the dogbone and engine mounts and rotate the engine forward". Yes, to replace the sparkplugs you're supposed to unbolt the fucking engine from the car.

Sounds like a well designed vehicle. That's that "Chevy" company that you're talking about? I'd be interested in investing in it.

Re:Been there done that

[joib]

Well, on the positive side at least with the modern gee-whiz electronically controlled engines flooding isn't really a problem anymore. But yeah, I'll have to agree it takes a certain engineering genius to design such an engine mounting.

On a related note, changing headlights on my Toyota is an hour long affair with lots of swearing and sore fingers. Toyota, hear me, would it be possible to design the engine compartment so you don't have to be a frickin' contortionist to perform such a common and trivial operation?

Personally, I think making cars difficult to work with is a conscious choice by the automakers to generate business for their own workshops. If someone complains, they just answer that 'Today, people don't want to work on their cars anymore'. Yeah, fuck you too.

Re:Been there done that

[toddestan]

I take it that you've never had to replace a headlight on your Honda?

Re:Been there done that

[Grishnakh]

Replacing headlights on any modern car (post-1990 or so) with halogen headlights is trivially simple: open the hood, grab the base of the headlight bulb, turn, and pull out. This is thanks to the fact that they finally dropped the stupid law requiring "sealed beam" headlights, and let manufacturers make aerodynamic headlight housings with replaceable, standardized bulbs (9003, 9004, etc.).

Of course, if you're talking about replacing the entire housing, that's a more difficult job, but why would you ever need to do that unless you were involved in a crash? Headlight housings don't require routine replacement, though the plastic does seem to go bad after a while, but that's easily fixed with some buffing compound without removing them from the car.

Dissolve it

[rally2xs]

Acid.

Re:Dissolve it

[CarpetShark]

Don't you think dissolving the space shuttle is overkill?

Re:Dissolve it

[Anonymous Struct]

Look, do you want the knob back or not?

Re:Dissolve it

[RayHs]

If the knob is aluminum, they should be able to dissolve it with mercury though you wouldn't want to get it on any thing else aluminum.

Re:physics

[RichardJenkins]

Why not just apply extremely localised extreme heat to critical areas on the knob, collapse it and remove the new shape?

Why not just pull it really hard?

Why not chisel it really hard ...etc.

You and me could think of a bunch of stuff; NASA could think of a bunch of stuff and properly assess how likely it is to work vs how likely it is to damage the shuttle vs how much it will cost and so on.

Re:physics

[afidel]

I wonder if freezing the knob enough to make it brittle and shattering it is an option?

I wanna be...

[Theodore]

your SLEDGEHAMMER!!!

Seriously though, looking at the pics,
How did something that big roam around anywhere in the shuttle? (shoot an engineer).
How could something so small do HOW MUCH DAMMAGE?!?!?!?! (shoot an engineer).
(look at the plans)... Shoot 100 accountants.

WD-40?

[Anonymous Coward]

Works on the stuff I get stuck.

NASA: how to get your knob out...

[s0litaire]

...the answer is simple.

If you can cut it out (vibration damage to the area.)

If you cant freeze it out.

how about a strong suction device and a bottle of some strong acid. Pop the acid and try and suck the knob till it comes.. out...lol ^_^

Or in reality.. just use the acid to burn some of the knob away and take it out. Make sure you've got some alkali handy to stop the reaction before it does an "Alien" on you and melt the whole way through the deck ...

Re:NASA: how to get your knob out...

[Capt.DrumkenBum]

You sound like some sort of expert on knob sucking.

Are you by chance a consultant? NASA could use your experience.

Re:NASA: how to get your knob out...

[LotsOfPhil]

Strong acid plus alkali produces a lot of heat.

Re:NASA: how to get your knob out...

[clintp]

And fumes as well. Those won't be healthy for the window or the nearby surfaces.

Re:NASA: how to get your knob out...

[ArsenneLupin]

Pop the acid

Well, technically, alkyl nitrites are esters, not acid. But apart from that, nice idea. If it helps the knob go in, it will help it come out too.

and try and suck the knob till it comes.. out...lol ^_^

How are you going to suck the knob while it is still in? And wouldn't sucking it make it even bigger?

it doesn't have to be in a vacuum

[Anonymous Coward]

Just pressurize the shuttle to two atmospheres and remove it.

in Sovjet Russia..

[Anonymous Coward]

...they would just pop it out with a screwdriver

Re:physics

[Anonymous Coward]

why not just put it in a vacuum chamber, warm it up, and slide it on out?

Reorganize those steps, and that sounds like an ideal friday night for a bachelor!

Re:physics

[schon]

The guys at NASA are pretty clever.

Oh come on - it's not like they're rocket scientists or anything! :) :) :)

Re:physics

[Mr2cents]

So they cannot damage the glass.. Can they damage the dashboard?

Hm

[Anonymous Coward]

Or they could just get a dremel in there and cut it.

Re:physics

[fiannaFailMan]

FAO any other Monday morning quarterbacks, armchair rocket scientists, and other self-appointed experts and "why don't they just" merchants out there who never seem to consider that the people working on the thing might actually have thought about what they are doing, quoth TFA:

"Induced damage of the knob being wedged between the glass and the dashboard closeout panel structure, or from removal of the knob could result in unacceptable damage.

"Consequences of unacceptable damage to the glass pane: Replacing the pressure pane would result in a significant impact to ground schedule (potential 6+ month impact). Requires de-configuring dashboard structure and instrumentation to remove window assembly for refurbishment. Windshield pressure pane removal has never been performed at KSC.

"Knob removal must be performed carefully; exhausting all risk free options first, then attempting more intrusive (higher risk) options, if others fail."

pressure

[ChristTrekker]

Since the thing slipped in there in part due to pressure differences, why not overpressurize the crew compartment? Or take the orbiter up on the 747 while pressurized? Maybe combined with dry-icing the knob, it will come out.

Re:pressure

[gparent]

There's something you didn't try, and it was reading the fucking article.

Re:pressure

[MightyMartian]

There's something you didn't try, and it was reading the fucking article.

<Slaps Head> Of course! The answer is in the article. Phone NASA and tell them to read it.

Re:physics

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah this was my thought too as soon as I read "dry ice". Just freeze it and smack it. I'm sure the reason why not is because the fragments will only cause more damage once in space.

Ohhh!

[Anonymous Coward]

So it wasn't that some rocket scientist got his knob stuck in a widow?

Free Knob!

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank god they got hubble fixed before this fleet falls apart.

The worst case has them replacing a pressure plane that would normally be replaced at a facility that closed over 6 years ago.

In many ways the shuttle is a living museum piece.

Dremel it out!

[Anonymous Coward]

Just grind it to dust and vacuum it out.

Laser Cutter

[Anonymous Coward]

Cutting would clearly work, the problem is that vibration from the cutting blade or drill could further damage the window.
SO - use a cutting method that doesn't produce vibration - Use a laser cutter.

Re:Laser Cutter

[CarpetShark]

SO - use a cutting method that doesn't produce vibration

My vote is for extreme sarcasm.

Re:physics

[0100010001010011]

Knobs do not belong in vacuum cleaners. And once it warms up, there's no pulling it out of anything. There was one bad evening I did get my knob suck it something. Don't mix up lube and super glue.

OT - sig broken

[XanC]

Doesn't look like there's anything there...

Re:For A Solution, Call +1, PatRIOTic

[fiannaFailMan]

Mod up. Soyuz is still going strong since 1966. The ISS has two of them permanently docked to use as lifeboats. And yes, it was first developed by a socialist society. So what? Are our mods so socialistophobic that the mere sight of the word is enough to attract 'flamebait' and 'troll' mods?

How about a metal file to it?

[L3370]

Maybe I'm not understanding the complexity here, but unless that knob is made of the hardest substances known to man, wouldn't an electric saw... or even someone with a metal file and a lot of free time solve this problem? It looks like the angles would allow for it.

Re:How about a metal file to it?

[Anonymous Coward]

As a human, I am continually amazed at the fact that other humans(or maybe some kind of simple AI) just can't grasp the simple concept of "Read The Fucking Article".

A visit by the Dentist may prove to be a solution for Atlantis, via cutting the knob with a high rpm/low amplitude dental drill, just enough to allow for the knob to be freed from its current location. However, the vibrations from the drill may transfer to the window pane and again increase sustained damage.

Re:physics

[Anonymous Coward]

Although it's lengthy, you should try reading the article next time. The guys at NASA are pretty clever.

Yeah, they can even convert vales in Inches to centimeters. oh wait.....

Sad

[sexconker]

Just yank on that bitch.
If shit breaks, fix it. You waste more time and money, along with what little dignity you have left, by sitting around discussing it.

If you can't yank it, cut it.
If shit breaks, see above.

If you can't cut it, melt it.
If shit breaks, see above.

If you can't melt it, dissolve it with acid.
If shit breaks, see above.

If you can't dissolve it, rust that bitch out.
If shit breaks, see above.

If you can't oxidize it, unscrew the window, take it out, and put a new window on since you're so fucking terrified.

If you can't do any of the above, just fly with the fucker in place. You're going into the same conditions that got it there. As long as the glass isn't cracked, you're good.

Re:Sad

[John Hasler]

> As long as the glass isn't cracked, you're good.

And if the glass cracks during the launch?

Re:Sad

[sexconker]

It won't.
The pressures would be the same.

If the glass made it through with no issues, then it'll make it through again with no issues.

If it has tiny cracks, then it might not survive the next launch.

Stuck knob

[Hatta]

If this condition lasts for more than 4 hours, call a doctor.

Re:Stuck knob

[R3d M3rcury]

I know this is off topic, but I saw this cartoon today in a similar vein. But it took my a few seconds to get it...

Leave it till next time.

[pentalive]

I wonder if they could just leave it in there until the next mission. It should come loose on orbit right?

Here's a lesson, never make parts that can break off out of something you can't easily cut. If the knob were
made of some kind of plastic a little acetone might have fixed the problem.

Re:Leave it till next time.

[Anonymous Coward]

And if it's done damage to the window - that same window that is so important to keeping the pressure up inside the shuttle - what then? Sending the shuttle up with an issue that could easily cause deaths is not exactly the kind of publicity NASA needs or wants...

Re:Leave it till next time.

[John Hasler]

> I wonder if they could just leave it in there until the next mission. It should come
> loose on orbit right?

It might also bust the window during the launch.

Re:Leave it till next time.

[adolf]

It doesn't seem that it could possibly cause more pressure than it already has. The trip up should be a relief for that window.

Though, personally, I don't think the knob would be liberated until the orbiter was heated during the next reentry...and that's probably not the best time for one to be out of their seat, picking bits out of the dashboard of a space shuttle.

Why not simply cut the screw ?

[Anonymous Coward]

The picture shows that cutting the screw would easily let the knob twist free in 2 pieces.

All they need is some cutting wire so that they can get it around the screw and some work ...

Re:physics

[billcopc]

That's the problem: many armchair rocket scientists have lost faith in NASA's ability to accomplish anything of value. They're a big money sink in a time when the budgets could be far more beneficially applied elsewhere. Do people give a flying fuck about Mars ? Not when there are innumerable large-scale problems here on earth.

Re:Six months to disassemble a window?

[Anonymous Coward]

Right, because, like Apollo 13, this shuttle is in space, with three lives on the line, low power, high levels of carbon dioxide, chance of being lost in space forever, and will only be used insofar as getting people back to earth.

Wait, these are completely different things. With Apollo 13, they only had hours and everything they did was to get the people home safely. With that, calculated risks and jerry-rigging made the best sense. Upon splashdown, the whole craft became a museum piece. Atlantis is still a working shuttle with multiple missions ahead of it. Everything needs to be done to keep the shuttle in the best condition to prevent accumulation of damage over its remaining lifetime. This careful approach is the best way to keep flying safely.

cut knob into thirds, remove middle section

[vainvanevein]

$1 million plz

Re:physics

[sdpuppy]

Movies aside, freezing things does not always make them brittle.

Dry ice at its freezing point is 194K; liquid nitrogen around 77K

I handle liquid nitrogen in my job; the only things that get brittle at that temperature tend to be plastics and materials with water (like your finger :-)).

Certain steels can become brittle and shatter at that temperature, but I figure that NASA probably plans worst case for all materials used in space craft and probably will not select a metal that will shatter...

Atlantis

[blind biker]

What an undignified way to end.

Re:Atlantis

[linzeal]

With a knob stuck in its face and a bunch of engineers trying to pry it out?

Re:physics

[Gilmoure]

I used to do tech support at Honeywell. Had real rocket scientists there. Called them my brilliant idiots.

Re:physics

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF you talking about. Brilliant people don't always know all. Is it a metal knob? Is the pressure pane nonconductive? Is the dashboard metal or nonconductive?

EDM the phrackin thing out. Electro discharge machining, ground the knob itself or via the dashboard. 2 passes max. You can make a setup like a sytrofoam cutter and manually yank it through or hook it up to a stepper and driver or spring and tension it. The knobs gotta drop somewhere so they can certainly fish a wire around it if they can't go direct. If they're worried about other components, sleeve the wire where necessary.

And, I'm reading they have an entire freaking pressure setup? Good lord, they could inert gas the whole damn setup and go in with pressure suits if they didn't want to automate the cut. I love NASA, I frequently read their projections and briefings for my projects and the guys are generally damn brilliant (2nd to only some of the NSF machining setups I've read), but they need X factors on site to suggest things.

btw, it sounds as if it would be cheaper to go up again and remove it at an opportune time.

You know you should go to bed, when...

[Hurricane78]

...you read that as "Stuck Know Causes Serious Windows Damage To Atlantis", and think "How the hell do they know what OS they were using on that sunken island?"

I just know realized, that even my question does not make any sense...

Re:You know you should go to bed, when...

[martin-boundary]

My first thought was "Don't touch that window, it's a Replicator plot!".

Re:You know you should go to bed, when...

[Hurricane78]

And I just NOW realized, that it is KNOB, and NOW, that both became KNOW.

Grammar Nazis, where are you, when I actually need you?

Femtosecond laser

[Anonymous Coward]

Since they were listing some options to try, why not try a femtosecond laser. That would ablate way the material without causing heating.

Solvent?

[wolf12886]

Am I the only one thinking wearing it down with solvent or electrolysis might be the way to go? It looks like they've got pretty good access, they could even pour a silicone sealant past it to keep the solvent out of places it shouldn't be, then peel it out afterward.
 

Only at NASA can a stuck knob result in 6 months of delays.

Re:Solvent?

[geekoid]

Only an idiot would bash NASA over something he has no facts about.

Re:Solvent?

[pz]

Am I the only one thinking wearing it down with solvent or electrolysis might be the way to go? It looks like they've got pretty good access, they could even pour a silicone sealant past it to keep the solvent out of places it shouldn't be, then peel it out afterward.

Looking at the photos of attempts to use dry ice, it already appears they are doing things like applying sealants, or protecting the areas around the knob. Electrical dissolution is an interesting idea. I'd be worried about the heat it would generate, though.

Re:Solvent?

[dwywit]

What about spark erosion? Properly grounded, of course, and a suction hose.

Re:physics

[Anonymous Coward]

"Although it's lengthy, you should try reading the article next time."
But this is slashdot....

Re:physics

[grumbel]

The problem they have isn't getting the knob out, but getting it out without introducing additional damage to the window.

This reminds me of my dashboard ...

[timothy]

Why any car is made with other than LED lights (perhaps cold-cathode is good enough, or for some reason that I don't know even better) rather than little incandescent bulbs is beyond me. "Here's an important part we know will fail, that's about 18" from the driver. Let's make it very, very difficult to remove, so when the important dashlights fail, he'll need to pay someone with more tools a lot of money to fix the 10-cent lightbulb."

Headlights, the same way, at least the ones on a) a 1998 Subaru Outback and b) a 2003 (?) Mazda Protege5. I have no yet had the courage to well investigate on my current car, but since it's also a Subaru, I bet it will lead to much cursing. Ooh, how I hate those little bendy-pins, straight of our Rube Goldberg, and the awkward angles / hand positioning needed to do a repair that's to be easily expected.

And it's not even a space shuttle!

timothy

Re:This reminds me of my dashboard ...

[lgw]

I have found the that the main difference between a $20K car and a $50K car is that the $0.20 parts get replaced with $0.50 parts. Not shaving every possible penny on every possible part seems to help a lot quality-wise. I just wish I could buy the $21K car with just those parts upgrades!

Re:This reminds me of my dashboard ...

[tomthegeek]

The radio that came with my 99 Grand Am has an incandescent bulb to light up the display. No way to easily replace it, in order to fix it I had to pull the whole radio apart. Tell me that's not planned obsolescence. Oh and if I ever find the guy that designed the headlights I'm going to kick him square in the nuts.

Re:physics

[Chyeld]

Yes, that sounds like a wonderful idea, lets launch again with the most critical, third, panel of the windshield, the one that is actually responsible for handling the pressure, in potential danger of being cracked. I'm sure that wouldn't lead to anything potentially disasterous.

No, wait. Lets just say FUCK IT and try to burn the knob out, I'm sure that wouldn't cause any sort of potential for collaterial damage that wouldn't have to be evaluated by taking the whole damn thing apart.

Yeah, lets talk shit about the folk who actually are responsible for maintaining these things as if we had a fucking clue. I'm sure that proves our superiority over those damn eggheads.

Re:physics

[laddiebuck]

As someone else earlier suggested, why not dissolve it? There are acids with high enough electronegativity differences to dissolve just about anything. If the acid were brushed on to the a sufficiently narrow part of the knot, and all collected as it dripped down, it would in time etch that part of the metal away enough to break it and hence dislodge the knob. Of course, it would have to be secured first so it doesn't collapse when it shouldn't. But that seems less invasive if more time-consuming. However, it needn't even be so expensive -- the acid can after all simply be re-circulated. No matter how time-consuming, though, it's simple enough that there's not much overhead -- so it could be done in weeks instead of 6 months.

And yes, I don't see this option discussed anywhere in the article. Several other options with immediately visible flaws are discussed and rejected, but this isn't.

Telepathy

[GeoSanDiego]

Let Uri Geller have a crack at it!

Re:physics

[Colonel Korn]

Yeah this was my thought too as soon as I read "dry ice". Just freeze it and smack it. I'm sure the reason why not is because the fragments will only cause more damage once in space.

Try this, for educational purposes:

Drop a piece of aluminum or steel into a bucket of liquid nitrogen. Now take it out and drop it on the ground from a height of 6 feet, or hit it with a hammer. Notice it not shattering.

The first time I dropped a 10 pound block of aluminum while taking it out of a nitrogen bucket I expected it to shatter, too. Then I realized I thought that because of hollywood.

How about reheating the orbiter to expand it again

[Ungrounded Lightning]

... the engineers working on this ... have thought of just about anything ... Drill/cut? ... Pressurize orbiter? ... Apply cold to the knob to shrink it?

How about tying a string to the knob (so it doesn't get away), reheating the orbiter, and pressurizing it - recreating the situation (except for zero G) that let it float in in the first place?

Duct tape the wondow

[geekoid]

and once in space, remove the knob.

Seriously though, heat it until it softens and changes shape, or slowly dissolve it.

No armchair quarterbacking...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not saying that I know how to get it out, but it does seem a bit silly to have a GLASS windshield on the inside of the orbiter that could (at least theoretically) become damaged... and then have it be a 6-month repair job. Was there some reason it had to be so hard to remove? Is it so inconceivable that something would eventually damage it?

Re:For A Solution, Call +1, PatRIOTic

[brusk]

Remind me how many make return trips to space...

Re:physics

[geekoid]

They only put things in space reliably, how hard could that possible be~

Simple Solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Now I may not be a rocket scientist, but why don't they cut the damn nob in half and pull it out in pieces like the dentist do. It can't be that expensive of a piece.

Looks like a job for electrodynamic machining.

[Ungrounded Lightning]

OK, so they can't cut it with ordinary tools because damage to the window from the vibes and chips would be an issue.

Looks like a job for electrodynamic machining.

Sparks through a liquid to the part temporarily create a plasma cavity through the liquid and melt a spot where they land. When the spark stops the cavity collapses with the resulting shock wave splashing the still-molten material into the liquid where it instantly freezes as dust.

Repeat several thousand times per second, monitoring the spark voltage to estimate the distance to the surface (and whether there's a chip shorting the tool to the workpiece) and move the tool to get the right gap (and wash chips out of the cut and move a new part of the tool near the workpiece when the tool erodes). Pump the dilectric fluid (water, oil, etc.) through a filter to clean out the dust. You can use the side of a wire as a bandsaw, the end as a drill, or make a carbon tool of arbitrary shape and burn it into the workpiece.

This will cut anything conductive and anything that can be made conductive. (i.e. to drill diamond you flash a little metal onto the surface for an initial contact and the cut surface of the hole becomes graphite and also conducts as you drill inward).

The central rod of the knob is under compression so use the tool like a lumberjack's saw and remove a wedge, followed by making a releasing cut.

There are some fine sparker power supplies available for this. (Raycon is one manufacturer. It bought out Bretco, for which I once programmed motion control for such a device.) It should be simple to improvise a tool to go around the stuck part using a rapid-prototyping system.

Re:Looks like a job for electrodynamic machining.

[Ungrounded Lightning]

There are some fine sparker power supplies available for this.

"Power supply" for a sparker means the box also containing the computer and software that do the motion control and cut path following, plus the motor controllers. The rest of the machine is the moving parts, motors, pumps, and electrodes, which would be custom-hacked for this job.

Re:Six months to disassemble a window?

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a big difference between what you do when some guys are gonna die if you don't get it done in an hour, and what you do when lives are on the line if you do it too quickly.

Haven't seen KY or WD40 suggested

[Anonymous Coward]

it amazing the seemingly impossible places they can seep into.

why not a liquid lubricant solution?

micro-vaporization with suction ?

[Anonymous Coward]

think de-soldering.
maybe conduct the heat with a fine wire
from within evacuated tubing.

vacuum suction and dremel tool

[Anonymous Coward]

Why can't they set up a vacuum suction and just cut the knob with a dremel tool and have the vacuum grab the filings? If you use a sander and not a dental drill that might cause less vibration.

Or just say to heck with it and fly it, and when it gets up to orbit remove the knob :-).

Scrap it

[l00sr]

Why don't they just build a new orbiter? Lazy bastards.

New Eternal Question.

[Sebilrazen]

How many rocket scientists does it take to get a stuck knob unstuck?

Re:physics

[BubbaDave]

EDM would actually be very gentle and would not raise the temperature of the knob by much, but it is unlikely they can easily fill that area with the appropriate fluid (with few enough consequences) to do so.

I'm going to bet some clever mechanic type makes a tool that will solidly grab the knob and bend the 2 ears on the dashboard side without applying additional loading to the glass.
As long as the tool only applies pressure against the knob, and 'braces itself' against the knob, you wouldn't load the winshield pane (more than it is).

Dave

Sawzall and epoxy

[Anonymous Coward]

Sawzall and epoxy. Maybe some caulk.

Prop up the shuttle vertically as if for launch?

[Coward Anonymous]

The weight of the dashboard may pull it away from the window and ease it off the knob. At the very least changing shuttle orientation will change the stresses on the frame and potentially some angle may be just right.
Maybe...

O-Ring, Foam, Knob ...

[Perf]

First an O-ring. Next, a piece of foam. Now, a knob.

Why is it that such little things cause so much shuttle damage?

simple solution

[recharged95]

Load shuttle, launch shuttle, enter space, remove wedged knob (from expansion), make necessary repairs (DUCT TAPE), return to earth, land. Job well done!

.

Of course I didn't consider how much it would cost--but likely the same cost-n-effort, but in less time (6-10mos?) than doing it on Earth.

In Australia, knob is a euphemism for penis.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm curious to know what the astronaut was doing with his knob and the shuttle's window. Each to their own, I guess.

Re:physics

[Anonymous Coward]

way to go brainiac.

Welp (this is a useless field, eh?)

[wampus]

Windows? This has to be Microsoft's fault. Someone blame Balmer.

Re:Welp (this is a useless field, eh?)

[Robin47]

Windows? This has to be Microsoft's fault. Someone blame Balmer.

Remove knob Cancel or allow?

Re:physics

[MightyYar]

Do people give a flying fuck about Mars ? Not when there are innumerable large-scale problems here on earth.

There have always been people like that - and not just about the space program.

Fortunately, those people usually do not make a very compelling case and so we still have a space program and, more generally, we still fund the sciences.

Re:Scrap it!

[beckett]

pencils contain graphite. graphite conducts electricity. graphite powder is generated when you rub it up against paper to write stuff. graphite powder gets everywhere in microgravity, including behind control panels, into switches, and sensitive electrical components.

i'm glad you're not in charge of so much of a paperclip at NASA.

Re:physics

[afidel]

It's NASA, they have liquid helium if they need it. I think most materials turn brittle at 5K =)

Re:Scrap it!

[Suzuran]

This is an urban legend. It's entirely false. The poster knows this and is trolling. PS: I own one of the pens in question.

Sheesh

[Barterer]

1. Send someone in with diving suit and CO2 or Argon tank
2. Close shuttle door and open tank, pressurizing shuttle
3. Remove knob, release pressure
4. Go home and quit robbing us of obscene amounts of cash

Re:Sheesh

[RichiH]

Personally, I would prefer Argon over CO_2 as that reduces the panic from not being able to breathe. (the breathing reflex is triggered by presence of CO_2, _not_ lack of oxygen)

Put on transporter; get as high as possible

[jrst]

The transporter has a service ceiling of 15,000 feet with Shuttle attached, that would given them an additional 6.4PSI of differential. With the other methods (and a bit more altitude if they can manage it, even for only a short period), it might be close enough.

Cut it out.

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, get a diamond-tipped cutting tool and cut it in half by hand. No mechanical vibration created!

Sliiiiiiiiiiiice. Clean up the dust created from the first scratch.
Sliiiiiiiiiiiiice... Clean up the dust created from the microscopically deeper second scratch.

Continue until it's in two pieces. We're forgetting how effective tedious manual labor can be.

So common

[cybereal]

It's funny how often an errant knob slipping between some unsuspecting crevice so often leads to thoughts of early termination.

Why dont they use a cutting laser

[hostguy2004]

Why dont they use a high powered cutting laser to cut it in half?

Re:How about reheating the orbiter to expand it ag

[Feyr]

not enough power. the article makes it clear they will be able to pressurize it to 3psi, whereas the pressure that got it stuck there in the first place is 14.3 psi (or close to).

Very simple solution...

[xednieht]

I know this girl that can suck a watermelon through a garden hose. Houston I have a solution to your problem.

Re:physics

[Anonymous Coward]

They have overlooked one fact. It's harming nothing by being there right now. Just leave it there, next mission when it comes loose grab it. The potential harm is greater to remove than to leave it in. Take some of that fancy sealent they developed to seal any gaps in the tiles and put some on the area, it's not like the guys have to see out the windows to work or land.

I'm know I'm not smarter than nasa, but...

[DragonTHC]

why can't they put postive pressure inside the orbiter and pop it out?

but a better question perhaps, is why the hell is there junk rolling around inside the space shuttle?

Can they at least get in and polish the knob?

[Trip6]

It's lonely in orbit...

Re:physics

[dissy]

The first time I dropped a 10 pound block of aluminum while taking it out of a nitrogen bucket I expected it to shatter, too. Then I realized I thought that because of hollywood.

In hindsight, they should now make all of the shuttles knobs out of those little rubber balls... Those things shatter nicely!

Easy solution

[Anonymous Coward]

  Super heat it...and then super cool it...super fast..cycle it few time.

  Representing OC COURTS!

  And I am just a clerk.
 

Re:Scrap it!

[geekprime]

Nope sorry p51d007

Fisher developed the pen at their own expense NASA only had to buy the pens, at the same price the general public could I might add.

You know, just a little research would keep you from looking quite so stupid.
As a personal note you might try not being an ass, just for fun.

re: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Pen
NASA never approached Paul Fisher to develop a pen, nor did Fisher receive any government funding for the pen's development. Fisher invented it independently, and then asked NASA to try it. After the introduction of the AG7 Space Pen, both the American and Soviet (later Russian) space agencies adopted it. Previously both the Russian and American astronauts used grease pencils and plastic slates

Re:physics

[Nogami_Saeko]

Well, since everyone else is throwing in their idea, here's mine.

How about a very low-speed, low pressure diamond wire-saw?

For example: SXJ-2 Precision Endless Wire Saw - 840 mm long, 0.35 mm dia. Diamond Loop Wire (that's a continuous loop - they'd need to cut it, and re-attach it after wrapping it around the knob).

They could feed the flexible saw wire around around the knob and adjust the cutting pressure to keep it as safe as they want to be. If it's just a wire coated in diamond dust or the like, it will cut very slowly and precisely.

Note: If it works, please send me the cut pieces :)

N.

Re:physics

[dbIII]

In my case it was soaking the steel in liquid nitrogen for 15 minutes, then hitting it with a whopping big hammer with a knife edge at the end of a three foot long pendulum that had swung through 120 degrees or so. With most steels a 10mm cross section won't even break all of the way through under such treatment. Those that do are usually rubbish in any sort of cold weather.
The "Hollywood style" liquid nitrogen brittleness is best seen with some plastics and rubbers - there is a glass transition temperature below which the material is very brittle. You can do the rick of smashing a rubber dog toy into fragments with a hammer after soaking it in liquid nitrogen for a few minutes. Polyethylene as in cling wrap doesn't do this (which is dissappointing. Anything with a lot of water (eg. a banana) will of course freeze and smash just like ice. An important safety tip is to wait some time before placing the frozen banana in your mouth or it will burn your tongue (my classmate that did that now works in an explosives factory but is still intact last I heard).

Re:physics

[ozmanjusri]

If the acid were brushed on to the a sufficiently narrow part of the knot, and all collected as it dripped down

We've used a similar technique in one of our workshops, but there's no need to brush and collect - you use an inert sponge and/or capillary tube to circulate the etchant. Likewise, you don't need to use acids which produce potentially corrosive fumes and aerosols. A solution of copper sulphate and sodium chloride will do the job nicely with less risk.

Re:Scrap it!

[Anonymous Coward]

Plus, pencils in a 0g environment end up creating dangerous buildups of graphite dust. Of course, the Russians didn't care that much about safety.

Re:physics

[Amiralul]

Try putting a bonbon into a liquid nitrogen and then drop it from 0.2 meters high (sorry, real scientists uses metric system) and it will shatter like Terminator's parts in Judgement Day.

The Final Solution

[ae1294]

will be a bass box and 1000w amp....

Re:Scrap it!

[Hognoxious]

It's not too nice in lungs, either.

In case you have an awesome idea:

[RichiH]

Let's just assume that those engineers are used to working a _lot_ more thouroughly and have a _lot_ more gadgets than you are/have. Your idea is probably useless (unless it involves a chemical agent, but let's give those people some time).

Re:Scrap it!

[Linker3000]

I have a Space pen too (/rly) - it's faultless: writes upside down, on wet paper, grease, underwater. It doesn't leak at high altitude and is guaranteed 'for life' etc.

It's the bullet type with no shirt clip and I'll be darned if I can remember where I left it most of the time, so when I need a pen I end up grabbing the nearest Bic!

At least the ink will last a damn long time!

Why not this?

[wagebo]

So the max pressure NASA can achieve is 3psid. During the ferry ride on the back of the 747 it experiences 7psid. So pressurize to 3psid on the ground and then send it up on the back of the 747 again. Maybe even take it a little higher than normal and have someone inside the shuttle to pull the knob out. Land then inspect. Duh!!

Re:How about reheating the orbiter to expand it ag

[ArsenneLupin]

What about simplying waiting a while? Get all hot girls (and hot boys too, for good measure) out of sight, and the knob will shrink on its own. Then a (hopefully ugly) person can go in and pull the knob out.

Nothing is "easily replaced" on space shuttles

[Anonymous Coward]

Regardless to what the public was sold, nothing is "easily replaced" on space shuttles. Even the reusable parts have to be carefully inspected between flights at high cost.

That is part of the reason they are too expensive to operate, upgrade, and why the next solutions are mostly single use.

BTW, I worked on the shuttle program at JSC for 8 years. Send more money to JPL for robots, not to JSC for human spaceflight. Yes, it isn't as "exciting" to humans watching a robot.

The science of low earth orbit is over hyped for what it does. I've spoke with leading crystallographers who think all those "we can grow larger, perfect, crystals on orbit" are full of crap. They were using NASA funding as a way to make house payments, just like the rest of us.

Re:physics

[Gordonjcp]

Yes, that sounds like a wonderful idea, lets launch again with the most critical, third, panel of the windshield, the one that is actually responsible for handling the pressure, in potential danger of being cracked.

So they're going to have to replace the windscreen anyway. Remove the windscreen, remove the knob, fit a new windscreen. Simple.

Re:Scrap it!

[Anonymous Coward]

The legend may be more of a metaphor of NASA spending, IE, they like to create problems and solve them to get money. Where the Russians ran a space program running the same equipment and using just enough to get by, not to mention they did it quite well.

I had a professor who worked for a subcontractor for NASA, and NASA is known to waste money and create new problems to get more of it from the taxpayers. Upgrading systems that didnt need to be upgraded, and often the upgrades caused more issues and were more like a downgrade (the upgrade in question is when they upgraded their computer systems in the early 80's to Sun terminals, which hindered operations for a while, many programs needed to be redone, and the system ran slow, and they ended up paying more for technical support to keep the new system running than the older, stable systems (which should have been only replaced by upgraded versions of those systems.)

This is why I applaud private interest in space exploration, by the time the Apollo Program died, NASA had already died and been taken over completely by bureaucrats with no other interest than finding new ways to net government money, rather than a genuine interest in space exploration.

Cut the knob right there

[CdXiminez]

"Cutting vibration could induce further damage to window."
Even just with a hand saw, gently sawing thorugh?

Re:physics

[Chyeld]

Six months.

heat it

[spectrokid]

How about putting the entire shuttle in a tent and heating it up? Possibly combined with pressurisation?

Depressing

[sremick]

I am not sure whether this is just a sign of NASA design stupidity (impossible to repair parts), or a reason why space travel will always just be an overblown luxury niche and will never become mainstream.

Ha ha! It was the Knobs who sank Atlantis.

[Fantastic Lad]

Metaphor in action.

"And all the king's horses and all the king's men. . ."

-FL

Get Larry, Daryl and Daryl!

[Virtucon]

Get Larry, Daryl and Daryl to fix it. That and a cutting torch will have it handled in no time!

To think that Atlantis with its history of service goes out because of this is ridiculous and just goes
to show how badly screwed up NASA is.

Re: Don't attribute malice to laziness

[colinnwn]

The engineers who design these cars have competing goals. They need to make them compact, attractive, and operate at as high performance/efficiency as possible, and make them cheap to build. They have no incentive to make them serviceable other than knowing if they make it too hard and expensive to service, people might stop buying their products. But that line of causation and responsibility is tenuous.

In my experience the Japanese are a little better at this on average than American car companies. Japanese cars tend to be reliably a little hard to work on. American cars vary from really easy, to sometimes horrendously hard for something that shouldn't be. The Germans flat don't care because their parts are so expensive anyway, labor is such a small part of service.

Concord

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't something similar happen with the Concord? Someone had set down their hat while in flight, and when the plane landed, the plane contracted, trapping the hat in place.

Re:How about reheating the orbiter to expand it ag

[infinite9]

I thought you were going to suggest tying the other end of the string to a door knob across the room and slamming the door. It worked on my loose teeth when I was a kid.

Re:physics

[laddiebuck]

Thanks for the info! It's great to know the idea is actually used in practice.

If NASA don't come up with a quick solution, I think you should write to them. Or if you don't want to, I shall. Of course, there's not much chance that they would read it, but hey, it's always worth trying.

Work light

[RayHs]

I'm assuming the work light was found and it's not still jammed underneath the brake pedal.

Everybody knows ...

[dunng808]

Just let some air out of the tires.

Metal Knob?

[Anonymous Coward]

so am I the only one thats wondering why a metal knob was used instead of some plastic or urethane? you would think every bit of metal weight adds up and they would save the LBs by using light materials... and the fact they could have just used a Bic lighter to remove it if it were plastic... Engineering fail...

Not all of it's a troll

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's really just a troll, then Spider Robinson bit, too, cause her wrote an entire column about it: "Senator Socksdryer and the billion-dollar Boondoggle".

Was in his Globe&Mail column, and reprinted in his book "The Crazy Years". He spoke personally, he says, to one of the astronauts involved; Aldrin, I think.

I would log in as jra (5600) to post this, but Slashcode sucks hairy donkey dick, and I don't have the patience just now.

Simpler approach

[hicksw]

Hacksaw?