Slashdot Mirror
Madoff Sentenced To 150 Years
selven was one of several readers to send in the news that Bernie Madoff was sentenced to 150 years in prison. "Bernard Madoff's victims gasped and cheered when he was sentenced to 150 years in prison, but they walked away knowing little more about how he carried out the biggest robbery in Wall Street history. In one of the most dramatic courtroom conclusions to a corporate fraud case, the 71-year-old swindler was unemotional as he was berated by distraught investors during the 90-minute proceeding. Many former clients had hoped he would shed more light on his crime and explain why he victimized so many for so long. But he did not. Madoff called his crime 'an error of judgment' and his 'failure,' reiterating previous statements that he alone was responsible for the $65 billion investment fraud. His victims said they did not hear much new from Madoff in his five-minute statement. They also said they did not believe anything he said. As he handed down the maximum penalty allowed, US District Judge Denny Chin... [said], 'I simply do not get the sense that Mr. Madoff has done all that he could or told all that he knows.'"
Last post!
-- Madoff
Will this send a message to other would-be scammers? Nope.
all the jackasses at the SEC that ignored data again and again which pointed to fraud and enabled him to get away with this for so many years?
Did you ever wake up in the morning, with a Zombie Woof behind your eyes? -- FZ
What is the funniest thing ever to me, is that the people who have been dooped once already into losing their money are getting dooped for a second time with all of this disinfo about madolf being the only guy involved.
There must have been dozens to hundreds of people orchestrating this. But it's ok, we'll pin it all on one guy and see how gullible the public is. This guy is up there with the Lee Harvey Oswalds of patsies.
Liberty.
I'm not sure he really did know how bad things were, except for perhaps at the very end... for a long time I'm not sure he thought himself he was defrauding anyone.
I'm not sure even he himself can tell us exactly how this happened, beyond the fact it just did...
Sad how many people grew to be hurt by one mans illusions.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06/29/gop-senator-calls-inquiry-supressed-climate-change-report/
More outcome-based science being decided at the Presidential level. Weren't we supposed to have left this sort of thing behind us when we elected Obama?
I've thought this since news of the scandal broke:
You know why Bernie Madoff seems to be very complacent about the whole thing? Because his sons got off scot-free. Madoff is quite fine with sacrificing his freedom for the rest of his life... there are few things more [noble? gratifying?] than sacrificing yourself for your children.
I still believe it very unlikely that Bernie's sons didn't knowingly participate in this... or at least were aware of it. The whole way that the story broke... Madoff confessed to his son when he caught him trying to cover it up or something... then the sons convincing him to turn himself in...
I think Bernie is at least partly taking the fall for his sons. I only wish we could find out the whole truth.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
Often court judgments have more advertising value than real value. "Madoff Sentenced To 150 Years" should be "A 71-year-old man was sentenced to about 15 years, his normal lifetime".
He gets room and board on our dime. They should put a zapper-collar on him and cut him loose. Then garnish every dollar he makes. Let him stay at the Y and work for Mickey Ds. Then again we deserve this for not watching over and voting out the corrupt politicos. It's the voters' fault as much as anybody's. I don't care why he did it. We all know why. A lot of people are tempted to do the same thing if they think they won't get caught. And it's we who let them get away with an awful lot every election cycle. Maybe because many of us would like to get away with this ourselves if we thought we had a chance. He represents a pretty broad spectrum. So fuck him, and fuck all those who reelect the crooks who make all this possible.
For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
With time off for good behavior, he could be out in 127.5 years.
Seriously, it's impossible to get rid of $65 Billion without having something valuable to show for it. So far they've gathered the low 9 figures of $ from him, less than 1% of the money.
Do you have ESP?
Sweet! I'm a business-ponzi scheme-rip-off-artist-nerd and it's about time that there's material for someone like me here on Slashdot! Along with the computer security stories, I'm on my way to making Madoff look like an amateur. I think I'll change my name to Bernie Rippoff in honor of my idol.
Great work editors!
C'mon now.. what the fuck does this have to with my rights online??!
Oh wait, it's kdawson, using slashdot as his personal blog, yet again.
I understand it now.
And what, after 150 years in prison you think he will say something? Just plain stinking vengeance...
why don't they use torture? Like waterboarding or maybe drug him and then hypnotize him. Who cares if it's against the constitution, this is an exceptional case (plus it's not like the constitution stopped this kind of thing before)
How about all the clients who did everything they could to have the privilege of being Madoff's clients? I mean heck what were they thinking while they saw their accounts having unbelievable returns? They might as well take some responsibilities.
Knowing my rights should allow be to beat the crap out of this guy until he gives up all of the hidden assets, and all of the people who helped him along the way.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
...it will send a message to investors.
Message? Entrusting all your money to one guy is a bad idea. It's the same message they should have received when people lost all their retirement at Enron. Yes, there were people who tried to diversify towards the end and got unfairly shut out; but they should have been diversifying all along.
The Madoff lesson is that you don't just diversify your investments, you diversify your managers. In other words, one manager who says the portfolio is diversified is not enough. You should be employing more than one manager. One of them should be YOU. You may find out that they aren't any better than you. In that case, perhaps you should simply cut them out entirely; although I'm not convinced there aren't at least some managers who are worth their fees. It's just that I've never actually met one. It's become a truism over the years that a basket of stocks meeting certain criteria will beat most managers. That's why index funds have become so popular.
Of course, this falls under the category of "good problems to have" since many in the US now have a negative or very small net worth.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
If you could think of a way to do it. Is it OK to steal a little bit of money from everyone?
Deleted
Excuse me, but...
I lost my job over this when my employer tanked because of Madoff's scam, and I never had a dime invested with him. This has affected all kinds of people!
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Can I ask why this article is tagged "republicans"? Bernard Madoff isn't one, since he gave 88% of his political spending to the Democratic party (source). Nor is Judge Denny Chin a definite Republican (his affiliation is unknown). Alright, so some of the victims were, and probably some of the conspirators, but there's no reason this should be tagged the way it is.
How about the judge offers him a deal -- 1 year off of his sentence for every $1B he reveals and pays back.
You have a personal connection... that makes you NOT a part of the general public.
I agree, it sucks for people affected negatively, and I wish that proper restitution could be made. It's sad, but the general public doesn't give two shits about your employer, or about you. Not when there are baseball players that use steroids to cheat in a game -- now that's a travesty worthy of constant media attention and Congressional hearings. And not when Kate and John are going through a messy divorce that'll affect their eight little crotch potatoes -- THAT's a real-life travesty. Your employer and your job can't hold a candle to those crises.
Sorry, my sarcasm went overboard there. I do realize that there were people affected by this, that there were indirect victims of this crime. But I think it's obvious that the general public just doesn't care.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
The guy lives in extreme luxury based on fraud. Now, at 70 with most of his years behind him he can contemplate, read and relax where he is safe, his meals are payed for, and he gets free medical care.
I doubt he has any real regrets, just the faked remorse shown in court.
Madoff's going to spend his time in medium security or worse because of the length of his sentence. Madoff is not going to like prison one bit.
Hey Bernie, why don't you tell me where you really hid the money? Scummer. I hope they get his family members who were in on it too some day, along with his SEC enablers. The .gov also settled the case against his wife (former bookkeeper who knew exactly what was going on). They let her keep $2.5 million. Such a deal.
brought to you once again by slashdot. we all knew he would be sentenced harshly, so its hardly news. this doesnt seem to have anything to do with nerds or nerd culture, so aside from finding a face to put on the financial crisis and kick the teeth out of, i do not see how this story matters to slashdotters.
if i wanted to find out what happened in meatworld politics, id hit NBC or something.
Good people go to bed earlier.
Rape: 10 years
Murder: 25 years
Fraud: 150 years
What a joke.
China allows firing squad for these types of crimes. However, dying is too good for him but letting him live in a nice white collar prison is not right. I believe that we should send him to Gitmo before it closes and consider him a terrorist so the people there can....
I think there is way too much blaming of the banks/investment groups/etc in this whole financial crisis, and not enough light being cast on individuals. That isn't to say that these organizations aren't to blame, they are for sure... It is just to say that the individuals are ALSO to blame. The blame lies on both sides.
For example while banks certainly bear a large responsibility for making bad loans to people who clearly lacked the ability to repay them, those people bear responsibility for taking on those loans. Nobody forced them to, nobody said "You have to do this," they walked in to the deal, eyes wide shut. They didn't pay any attention to common sense, historical information, conservative financial advice and so on. They wanted more now and they got fleeced because of it.
So we need to blame (and punish) those at the top responsible, but I am tired of individuals getting a pass. YOU are responsible for your money, for making sure it is wisely invested. Now that doesn't mean you need to be an expert, but it does mean you need to apply common sense and watch out for deals too good to be true. You have to know your own means and make sure you don't go above them and so on.
If someone tells you to jump off a cliff, I'll certainly go after them for giving you bad advice, but I'm not giving you a pass if you were dumb enough to listen. You need to look after yourself, you can't assume the rest of the world is out for your best interests.
Heh, that's actually pretty funny. Who were the idiots you worked for, and how were you stupid enough to get caught up with them?
Now we victims get to pay for his room and board and medical and . . .
You can find a list of investors at the WSJ's site. There are a lot of schools, pension plans, and non-profits on the list that were significantly harmed, it's not a simple case of the wealthy stealing from the wealthy.
On a lighter note, Madoff has an impressive Bacon Factor of 1. The actor wouldn't confirm how much he gave Madoff, but let's hope it was way less than the $10 million Zsa Zsa Gabor claims to have lost. I shudder at the thought of the horrible movies a financially desperate Kevin Bacon would churn out.
But I think it's obvious that the general public just doesn't care.
Why should the general public care? I didn't lose any money, and I can't magically recover the money other people lost, so why am I supposed to get worked up?
It's the same as any other stuff in the newspaper. A train blew up in Italy today. That's a shame, but I wasn't hurt, I don't know a soul in Italy, how much am I really supposed to care?
I mean, If I would have had 65 billion dollars, you could bet your mom and your life on the fact, that I would have had such a great incredible and crazy life, that I would not care if they kill or imprison me. Oh, realistically, they would not get me alive anyway.
Then again, I may not be as boring as he is. ^^
65 BILLION. Imagine... Just imagine that. Even space and nuclear warheads on rockets would be an option.
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
Which honestly is pointless. Should Madoff be banned from operating a company? Sure. Should he have to return his stolen goods and pay back the people he scammed? Yes. Should he be forced to liquefy most of his assets to help pay back? Yes. Should he be in prison not just scamming people once but effectively scamming the taxpayers. No. Prison should be reserved for only dangerous people who committed violent crimes and need to be put away for a while so they don't go back into crime and when they get out of prison they for the most part should be rehabilitated and able to live a normal life (with perhaps a few restrictions such as banning the sale/possession of firearms form violent criminals). Madoff is not a danger to society. And before you try to use a reasoning of "setting an example" that is not justice. No matter how much he scammed, he does not belong in jail. He should be working the rest of his life making small payments to pay for those he scammed. Prison is not the place for non-violent criminals, those should be placed on house arrest, have fines, restrictions or be placed on probation. Why should my tax dollars pay to lock away someone who wouldn't threaten anyone's lives, property, etc if he was out on the streets (with again restrictions on what he can and can't do economically).
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
Anyone else think so?
I see a lot of people whining because they lost their entire life savings to this bozo. I see the government pushing for and getting maximum sentence. I see people applauding over the 150 year sentence.
Simple fact that anyone with a brain can tell you about investing is that you do not pt everything in one place. You diversify to reduce your exposure to risk. I have no sympathy for the schmucks who lost everything. Why? Because they decided to listen to greed instead of sound financial planning and advice.
Simple fact is that this dude is 71 years old. Chances are that he will not live 15 years, let alone the obvious overkill of 150. Point being is that his life is already behind him, he basically got away with this and need only live a few years in the pen and kick off. Sure what he did is terrible, but its not murder. I am continually amazed at how insanely greedy people are - and this just adds to that. You basically want to put this guy in prison until he is dead because you were scammed and lost what you tried to invest. Get a life and take some responsibility for yourself. You are the one who decided to invest everything in one place. You are the one who lost all your money, not Bernie. Your bad decisions lost you the money, and now you have to have your vengeance and put an old man away forever. Sorry, but this sickens me. Put him in there for 10-12 years like he suggested. Let him out in time to have a year or two with his family before he dies. That would be humane.
Fifty years of the most luxurious lifestyle imaginable, every financial dream at your dospaoals, walthy than the ealthiest kings - without all the hassle.
Followed by 2-5 years in prison and a quiet death?
I'll take it. Where do I sign up?
Real punishment would be making him work to pay something - ANYTHING- back. Not to the people he fleeced, who were almost as greedy, but to soceity as whole. Now taxpayers have to pay to house and feed this guy! Make him work as a waiter, or cold call salesman or some other crap drop until he drops dead. Every penny gets invested into a trust fund for children's education or some other noble cause.
In a country without socialized healthcare, fraud *is* a violent crime.
So by your rational...
The recepants of charities that invested in...
The employees of compaines that collapsed because of...
The tax payers paying for the investigation...
The people affect by laws being created because of...
Are just not part of the general public because it effected them somehow personally.
Only a fool would say the general public doesn't care, from a tabloid stand point alone you would be wrong.
Hell it made slashdot news for nerds and the only nerdy thing I can gather from this story is economic.
they walked away knowing little more about how he carried out the biggest robbery in Wall Street history.
He Madoff with the money...
Being part of the problem or the solution is not a prerequisite of caring. Perhaps you should head on out to Oz to see if the Wizard has any hearts left to give.
I am the richest astronaut ever to win the superbowl.
they like getting fucked in the ass by some ass raping prisoner.
5 years hell. Now come all the appeals. Is he out on bail?
This is money we're talking about. That makes for a looong sentence.
Now if he'd killed someone, you'd be right.
Wikileaks, no DNS
I think that the sentence indicates an argument that he is a danger to society. One could argue that he has been more of a danger to society than most violent criminals already incarcerated. Who's to say he won't go out and conduct more scams? Just because he seems sorry now that he's in trouble? How can you bar a person from being a con-artist? The man ruined more lives than most other criminals ever have...
Down with the career politician! SUPPORT TERM LIMITS
With time off for good behavior, he could be out in 127.5 years.
As I understand it, in the Federal system there is no "time off for good behavior" or other sentence mitigations. Convicts serve full time unless the conviction is overturned on appeal or they are pardoned by the president.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
He just needs to find a couple of inmates that are willing to do a couple more years of his jail time in order to be part of his plan. Those inmates need to find more people willing to do a couple more years of the jail time of all the people who got into the scheme before them, and those inmates need to get even more inmates willing to do more jail time. Soon Madoff will have enough sucker... I mean inmates to cover his time. Of course the last person in will need to do like 10000 years of jail time but then it will be up to the government to figure out how to keep the last inmate alive for that long.
They should find a way to make live longer so he can serve the full 150 years.
What GP meant, was not, that you would not care, but that the public, as a whole, could not care less.
That you lost your job over it, is exactly the sad thing that he wanted to point out that it is ignored.
I hope you can/could find a new job, man! And hopefully with a more wise boss. :)
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
So, you think thieves don't belong in prison? How is stealing a shit-load of money not a danger to society? It ruined all kinds of people's lives. It may not be overtly violent, but it still has a massive, devastating impact to a sector of the community and to the economy.
What about arsonists who happen to not kill people? Just make them stay at home? Wearing a collar that presumably doesn't cost the tax-payers anything? Like it or not, your tax dollars are enforcing the law - whatever that happens to be.
I do agree, however, that Madoff should be made to work - from prison - to make payments to the people he ripped off.
Wait, you are telling me that in a country where we can ban criminals from even voting, in an age where everything leaves paper trails a mile wide we can't get someone to watch his finances? I'm sure even hiring a dedicated person is going to be far cheaper than locking him up in maximum security where you have to provide *everything* for him.
And really, yes, he ruined a lot of lives, that part is unquestionable but he isn't violent. There is no need to lock him up especially not in a maximum security prison. What is the danger if Madoff buys a house next to yours? Are you not going to be able to sleep because you are afraid hes going to break in? That hes going to kill you when you are out checking your mail? No. Hes not violent therefore there is no reason to lock him up at taxpayer expense. Monitor his finances, perhaps give him a government job and only pay him through a traceable credit card and forbid him from getting other means of funding. Sell his house and all the rest of the finances, but lock him up at taxpayer expense effectively defrauding the public not once but twice? No.
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
Awesome Rolling Stone article linked below on the real crooks behind most of this. Nothing is happening to them...and the way things look nothing will. Welcome to the new America. Bernie was an easy fall guy. Try putting the executhieves from the past 15 years of Goldman Sachs in jail for all of the securities fraud and Ponzi schemes they have and continue to pull! You would probably be met by business end of an M-16 by our own military. They have wiped out trillions from people of all walks of life all over the globe. Think it is only conspiracy theory? Read the article.
http://zerohedge.blogspot.com/2009/06/goldman-sachs-engineering-every-major.html
Enjoy!
P.S. I am not affiliated with Rolling Stone magazine. That said, for clearer text and to support the author and magazine for taking a stand, please get a copy.
monitoring his finances to the level that you propose would probably cost as much as locking him up. i think in this case, life in prison is the only fitting outcome for this scumbag.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
So, you think thieves don't belong in prison? How is stealing a shit-load of money not a danger to society? It ruined all kinds of people's lives. It may not be overtly violent, but it still has a massive, devastating impact to a sector of the community and to the economy.
Theft != fraud. With fraud someone is willfully handing out money, with theft someone thought their money/stuff was secure when it wasn't. With theft you never know when it can strike, with fraud the only time it can happen is when you willfully give out money. Yes, fraud needs to be prosecuted but its not the same as theft especially violent theft.
Yes, it has a devastating impact, I'm not saying his crimes weren't severe I'm saying he doesn't belong in prison. Prison should not be the place where we keep people at taxpayer expense that we don't like. Prison should be a place where we keep people who could cause physical harm to others if released. In a country where we can deny the rights of criminals to vote and have other "unalienable rights" taken away, I would say we could keep tabs on Madoff's finances. Heck, we could probably hire someone to keep tabs on him for the rest of his life and still have it be cheaper than maximum security prison.
What about arsonists who happen to not kill people? Just make them stay at home? Wearing a collar that presumably doesn't cost the tax-payers anything? Like it or not, your tax dollars are enforcing the law - whatever that happens to be.
Once the arsonist has paid for the damage, I see no reason to place a huge burden on the taxpayer. Until then he should be forced to sell his assets and work off the damages. And I'm sure that wearing a collar and having the person themselves paying for food/water/electricity/medical bills is a ton cheaper than throwing them in prison.
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
So your alternative to locking him up at taxpayer expense is to hire round-the-clock surveillance at taxpayer expense?
Obvious exits are NORTH, SOUTH, and DENNIS.
Many counts of rape: many x 10 years Many counts of murder: many x 25 years One count of Fraud: 150 years / ?
It was eleven counts - of varying sorts. 150 years for eleven federal counts comes out to about 13 2/3 years per count.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
There were at least two people who took their own lives directly because of their losses from his theft:
These men are equally as dead as any two other murder victims, and were apparently in no trouble or danger prior to Madoff's criminal activity.
And just in case you want to blame the victims, consider the phrase "danger to society" doesn't necessarily mean "physical danger". Compare what he did to a mugger pointing a gun at you, but not shooting you: you might lose $200 bucks from your wallet, you might have crapped your pants, but you're still alive, and still have a job. Causing the collapse of hundreds of businesses, the unemployment of thousands, the destruction of retirement funds of tens of thousands of people -- I'd say he ranks right up there with any weapon of mass destruction in terms of the damage done to our society. "Danger to society" isn't exclusively the province of the barrel of a gun.
Prison is exactly the right place for him to spend the next 150 years. My only complaint is that he didn't start serving it when he began his fraud, which federal investigators place about 1975. He got to live too many good years outside of the gray bars.
John
Now the suckers want that money back from the IRS.
12% compounded, cap gains are 27% (not sure).
Assume the Ponzi scheme had a 'cap gains tax leak' (redemptions to cover taxes) of 3% per year.
To get to 65 billion in fictitious value at 12% compounded over 20 years would require an initial investment of about 6.5 billion. I know it didn't happen this way, actual principle was much higher as most investors came in late. Still an interesting number.
3% of 65 billion is about 2 billion in cap gains per year.
Where is the money?
The IRS got it from the suckers as they thought they were raking in great earnings.
Now the suckers will get into a legal brawl among themselves and with the IRS over the remaining money (they want to amend 20 year old tax returns).
Lawyers and forensic accountants will get most of it.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
The online encyclopedia that anyone (who is _in_ with Jimbo Wales) can edit.
OK, then explain the part where getting caught is bad. Because if you're under house arrest, even if it is a modest dwelling, there's no punishment there. You've had your toys and then you're banished to the middle class.
I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that house arrest, even a strict house arrest, is any sort of actual punishment for this sort of thing.
Guess what, most criminals* are a drain on society. That is why they are criminals. They do things that harm all of us for their own benifit. No matter what we do with them, they are a drain on taxpayer money--not to mention the damage they do to the victims.
Madoff is a pointless drain on society. You should be pissed he exists and we have to spend our taxpayer money to lock the son of a bitch up. It isn't the government or societies fault he is costing us a bagillion dollars. It is his own selfish nature.
The only reason we don't burn these people at the stake is this thing we call civilization. The fact we get a fair trial and *dont* get burnt at the stake on the whims of random people costs a lot of money. Personally, I'll pay my taxes and avoid being burnt at the stake and having a fair trial. Wouldn't you agree?
* Obviously there are exceptions... are dudes busted for smoking a joint really a drain on society? I'd argue not.
'I simply do not get the sense that Mr. Madoff has done all that he could or told all that he knows.'
And if they kill him, they'll never know.
I say bring on Dick Cheney and get the rest out of him!
You agree that he has ruined lives, and you agree that he has done this w/o using physical force. Let me ask you this - do you believe he's more likely or less likely to engage in other fraud from prison vs from the outside?
Furthermore, a big part of sending people to prison is as a deterrence to people who are considering to commit a crime. If defrauding people out of billions doesn't result in a prison sentence - then what the heck, why not give it a shot? Especially if you're old and you were going to retire anyway.
The man belongs in prison and IMHO his wife should not be left with a single red penny.
There are some sicknesses that socialized healthcare either will not cover or will not cover thoroughly enough to really cure.
Bullshit.
with socialized healthcare you get placed in "review hell" because A) the doctors get paid the same really no matter what they do
Also bullshit. In Ontario, doctors get paid per treatment/visit, more or less depending on what kind of treatment they do. No different than in the US.
and B) there are many other doctors/clinics.
I'm not even sure what the hell this has to do with anything.
If you say you need antibiotics for something, chances are in the US you can get them for whatever weak reason, with socialized healtcare if you have a non-common illness the answer will always be to wait longer.
Again, bullshit. If I need antibiotics for something, my doctor writes me a prescription for antibiotics, and I go get it filled. Of course, if I don't actually need antibiotics, my doctor doesn't have an incentive to feed me medication that I don't actually need. If you want to talk intelligently about universal or public health care, go learn something about the subject instead of repeating the lies you've been told. Here's an interesting fact for you. Of the top 40 or so countries in the world, the US has the most inefficient health care system. It's twice as inefficient as the next most inefficient health care system.
Universal public healthcare systems are operating right now, that are at least twice as efficient as the health care system in the US. Stop and think about that. This isn't theorizing about what a public health system might do, this is real actual performance in the real world. Of course, there are also many nations with fully private health care that are at least twice as efficient as your own system, which should be ringing bells in your head right about now. The problem isn't about public/private, the problem lies elsewhere. Many Americans will say that the discrepancy is caused by the "cheeseburger nation", but here in Canada we're just as obese as you are, and we do much better than you in terms of health care efficiency.
So what is the real problem? Why is it that in the US, you have absurdly high numbers of people with no coverage at all, and yet you spend more per person on health care than any other country? Follow the money....
Rule of Slashdot #0: You and people like you are not representative of the larger population. - A.C.
I don't see the difference between him and someone robbing a house. Since I don't see you campaigning for the latter I think it's pretty obvious that he should be in jail. Just because he's a rich white collar worker doesn't mean he should get special treatment.
"A hundred and forty-eight years on the wall,
A hundred and forty-eight years,
If one of those years should happen to fall,
A hundred and forty-seven years on the wall."
[Repeat into the 23rd century]
Prison is a punishment, not a holding area for the violent.
No, he should be punished for the crimes he commited. Not slapped him an impossible to pay back fine and all the freedom he wants.
Absurdly? Around 2-3% of the nation are without healthcare, the other 40ish million that are proclaimed to be without healthcare are ones who are in between jobs and waiting for the health coverage to kick in or simply youngins like me who refuse to pay for it.
Where I live, everyone is covered. Walk into a hospital, get treated, walk out. Everyone.
(Ebbers, that is). Those two should have lots to talk about. I believe Ebbers was a patsy. Madoff, not so much. But both were, I think, surrounded by people who knew what was going on and didn't care because they assumed the top guy would take the fall and they would go free (and mostly they were right).
punishment
Function: noun
1 : the act of punishing
2 : a penalty (as a fine or imprisonment) inflicted on an
offender through the judicial and esp. criminal process
He's not going to prison because he's currently a danger to anyone. He's going to prison because The People decided he should be punished for his misdeeds. The People have decided that probation is just not enough punishment for destroying the pensions of thousands--maybe tens or hundreds of thousands of victims. Maybe he didn't physically assault these people--but he didn't just rob them of money, he robbed many of these people of YEARS of their hard work... Remember, some people have to get along by trading their, blood, sweat and tears; ultimately trading time for currency. When you annihilate someone's retirement account, I think an argument could be made that you're literally stealing time from their lives. Isn't that what murderers do, if more suddenly or brutally?
And before you try to use a reasoning of "setting an example" that is not justice.
The way I see it, prisons have two primary services to society: Deterrence before the act, and reformation after sentencing. You're welcome to argue their effectiveness in either of these roles (rather dismal, IMO)--but that's not the point. The point is, laws are useless unless they're backed by a set of mean and nasty, pointy teeth when it's appropriate. So what if it is "setting an example"? Maybe the prior examples just weren't harsh enough to dissuade ol' Bernie? Perhaps this might deter the next douche who starts on the path of stealing 65-70 billion, and contributing in no small part to a globally upset economy?
Constitutional rights may be respected, repealed, or modified; but they must never be ignored.
I have to admit that there is some truth to what you say. Regardless of how much money was involved, should his punishment really exceed that of a murderer?
And how exactly do you know what you wrote about socialized care is true?
I am a disability pensioner in a country that has socialized medicine. Not only can my Doctor prescribe any drug on the list at any time,
he can specify virtually any treatment. There is no
input form anyone other than my own doctor in my treatment.
If you must make sweeping generalizations, try for a modicum of accuracy please.
Sorry for replying twice, but on second thought I decided you deserve a more thorough answer.
2% of 300,000,000 is 6,000,000.
Six million people in the US don't have health care, by your figures. 6M people not covered is an absurd number of people to not have healthcare in the richest country on the planet.
Also, how many people are "covered" until of course the insurance company can find a way to weasel out of covering them? How many people are "covered", until they have a heart attack or develop diabetes, and the insurance company refuses to cover them? This just doesn't happen in a public health care system. Not the one here, anyway.
My other reply was slightly inaccurate. Some people do have to pay for their health care here. People who are not properly landed immigrants would probably have to pay for their health care. Of course, they probably pay less here than they would have to back home, in some cases a lot less.
All of which is dodging the main point of my post, which is, why is the American health care system so much less efficient than every other nation's system?
Rule of Slashdot #0: You and people like you are not representative of the larger population. - A.C.
...is that prison will be able to provide true justice in this case. There comes a time where you have to cut your losses. There's no way to make things right, so we have to try to make him truly understand what he's done and to feel remorse for what he's done to people who had just as much of a right to be happy as he did, and from whom he stole that possibility.
What better path to that realization than buttsecks? Lots and lots of sweaty buttsecks.
That thief has forced people much older than he is to go back to work when they thought they had their retirement covered. Can you imagine being an 80 year old frail granny and finding out you are now penniless? It wasn't just other rich fatcats he ripped off, he ripped off all sorts of normal regular working folks whose other financial "advisors" got them hooked up with his fraud. Now they have to go commute twice a day with reduced reflexes, bad eyes and arthritis, or go out on the street penniless. Let alone the physical and psychological stress.
And by not locking him up, you are saying to other white collar megathieves at high levels, go ahead, do your worst, the new plan is to give you a government job and credit card if you get caught?
WHAT freeking deranged planet do you live on? That sort of "justice" would stop those thieves from being thieves? That's not even CLOSE to being a deterrent. Incarceration is both, it is supposed to be a deterrent to others, plus a punishment for the convicted. This asshole has probably caused any number of heart attacks and strokes now just from the stress a lot of his victims got put through. And a lot of them won't get a penny back because of the way the laws work, in fact, the ones who REALLY need some of their money back are the ones most likely to not get any. Those victims need to know he AT LEAST will suffer as much as they are now going to suffer. Wait until you get older, see how it feels to know you'll never be able to relax or have a day off no matter how tired and frail you get.
Nope, he needs jail, along with a slew of other wall street financial snakeoil conmen, they can start with the entire goldman sachs organization, biggest damn leeches and parasites on the planet. The damn revolving door between their offices and official government positions is *obscene*. They are the prime movers behind this economic coup d' etat we are all going to suffer for years under. They need to BAN most paper financial "products" and "services", because they are all mostly SCAMS and even some in the industry recognize this now. The whole wallstreet congame needs to be called and regulated like what it is, a CASINO. They need to be BANNED from calling what they do as "investing", it is so far away from the classical definition it ain't funny, and this case PROVES there has been no credible oversight by all the agencies who get fat checks and pensions to supposedly "regulate" it.. Madoff, goldman-sachs, all of those bloated ticks hanging off of society, including the almost completely useless government regulators, jail is almost too good for them. The government had just a few actually honest and righteous investigators who called foul years ago on madoff and some other crooks, the result, wall street influence got them told to sit down and shut up. Do you get it yet? Madoff is just a symptom of the rot and is an easy target for them to throw away as a MISDIRECTION. This is a political stunt, but he still needs jail. Just don't stop with just him.
Madoff is a public sacrifice they are throwing to the mobs just to see if people will forget about all the other scam-foolery that has been and is still going on with this whole economic "system" designed and run for wall street fatcats. He is SMALL POTATOES and still freaking bad. Lock him up, and then start on locking up a few thousand more and we can call it a decent first day effort, then get serious about it. Throw a freekin blockade around manhattan and start running some serious checks on what has been going on there for the last several decades, they have STOLEN most of the wealth produced in the US through lies, buying off congress, economic manipulation, insider trading, insider trading through foreknowledge of what the Fed does, and etc. A damn nest of thieves, rotten and corrupt to the core.
You're an idiot making inflammatory arguments.
Prison is a punishment - removing the freedom to live your life. Whether someone is dangerous or not has no relevance...There's a reason why poor, homeless people don't commit murder in order to get "free room and board" at the local penitentiary: Being incarcerated is a real punishment and on top of that, a _deterrent_ to other people who may be tempted to commit the same crime.
Since you're a nerd arguing on Slashdot, if a criminal burned down your house, destroyed your computer and any backups you have, would you be satisfied with them replacing the monetary value of the house and computer? If so, I wish I (like many people) had a extra few hundred thousand dollars. Then I could track you down, burn down your house, destroy all your property and cut you a cheque, for the damage and continue on with my life. Hopefully it would take less than this to illustrate the sheer idiocy of allowing people to commit non-violent crime and avoid punishment simply by reimbursing the victims in cash, i.e. a different system of justice for rich and non-rich people.
I bet you're American.
There are some sicknesses that socialized healthcare either will not cover or will not cover thoroughly enough to really cure.
Name one.
In the U.K., under the NICE system, they set a price limit on every condition. If they can save a year of life for about $50,000, they will do it. If it costs more than that, NICE recommends against it, but if people complain about it, the government usually gives in and pays for it anyway. They try to avoid giving out $100,000 drugs that have minimal effectiveness, but they treat long-term conditions better than we do in the U.S.
The U.K. is the cheapest, stingiest system in Europe. Sweden probably has the best care in the world.
But even in the US you can usually get on so many programs and with the aid of various non-profits and a good story in the newspaper or TV news station get enough help to get the care you need.
I just spent several days on the phone over the last few months trying to help a friend of mine who lost his job and health insurance get on Medicaid, so I know something about what actually happens. The city welfare agency just delayed his application for months. He had one condition that required lifetime medication to save his life, so it was a serious business. I made half a dozen calls to those non-profits and got nowhere.
But don't take my word for it. Here's a story in the Wall Street Journal that demonstrates how you can die in the U.S. if you can't afford health care. http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06339/743713-84.stm The WSJ had a whole series like that. (This is for people who don't believe Michael Moore.)
Granted, you will probably be in debt till you die, but even if you are poor you can usually *get* the initial treatments
As the WSJ story shows, that's not true.
but with socialized healthcare you get placed in "review hell" because A) the doctors get paid the same really no matter what they do and B) there are many other doctors/clinics.
So how come the Mayo Clinic, where doctors are on salary and get paid the same whatever they do, has some of the best outcomes in the country?
If you say you need antibiotics for something, chances are in the US you can get them for whatever weak reason,
That's supposed to be a benefit? If you take antibiotics when you don't need them, you're growing antibiotic-resistant bacteria, which could kill you later.
with socialized healtcare if you have a non-common illness the answer will always be to wait longer.
Ridiculous. I just read an article in the New England Journal of Medicine in which French doctors described how they were treating cryopyrin-associated periodic syndrome in their socialist system. Is that non-common enough for you? They were using canakinumab, which will probably cost tens of thousands of dollars per year.
Yeah, sorry. The victims *are* to blame for their suicides. Regardless of any outside circumstances, they chose to off themselves. Madoff did not make that choice for them. There is absolutely no way around that fact.
That said, hell yes, Madoff is a danger to society as a whole. Still, the man's not a violent criminal. I empathize with those who find his incarceration ridiculous. Throwing an old guy into a cell for the few years he has left does no good. ...Throwing him into McDonald's, while perhaps cruel and unusual, could at least provide some beneficial restitution to those he wronged. ...Then again, he'd probably be knicking McNuggets out of my six-piece. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. :p
I mean, he is already old. Why wasn't he "disappeared" already? Drinking little fruity drinks with umbrellas, on a beach somewhere, as "senor smith"?
I guess he never thought he would die, so he didn't chose to die in luxury with his ill gotten gains. Too much ego. His apologies were all about him. Now he will die on our (tax payer) dime, with not one whit of societal difference.
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
The Russians have kept Lenin incarcerated for one heck of a long time now - Will the Americans outdo them with Bernie Madoff?
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
Hmm.... Let's look at the math. In prison, he's "scamming," what, $60k/yr from taxpayers? Out of prison, he was scamming BILLIONS.
Plus, if the only cost of doing business to a scammer is the possibility of losing less than he scammed (because there's no way in hell Madoff could ever pay it all back), where's the disincentive to future scammers? As it is, Madoff is getting off really lightly--his best years are far behind him and he probably doesn't even have another ten left in him (especially now).
So, yeah. I'm pretty okay with him being in the pokey.
2% of 300,000,000 is 6,000,000
I can't believe the poster you're replying to knows what he's talking about. Very few minimum wage workers have health care. Maybe he's just playing and making up stuff, I don't know, but fairly clueless.
rd
I just googled, and this site claims the figure is "nearly" 46 million Americans without health care in 2007. I don't know whether the National Coalition on Health Care is a lobby group or what, so take with a grain of salt, but 45 million people without health care is mind-boggling to me.
Rule of Slashdot #0: You and people like you are not representative of the larger population. - A.C.
If he was black and if we sentenced along the lines of crack possession ($300 worth will get you 5 years) he'd be serving 1.08 billion years for 65 billion. Only 120 years?! Yeah he won't live that long.. duh.. but way to chop off a few 0s there.
In contrast to any "non-white collar crime" he'd be looking at no less then a million years.
Yeah he should have gotten a few 000s on the end of that in the name of principle.
Shit the wife\accomplice is walking away with 2 million! I can't buy a fucking beer without my wife knowing it. That bitch knew just as plain as day. She actually gets to KEEP 2 million. The two should be rotting in jail then when they fucking die their bodies should be cremated and poured into a sewer drain. Burial is too good for that piece of shit and that hag of a wife.
Fuck it, white collar crime pays apparently. No hard labor. No punishment really. He had his fun, now off to a minimum security prison while his senator friends ensure he's in "The nice area". Now he can rot on tax payer's tab. Maybe do some tutoring, write a book, maybe take up painting.
Remember: if your white apparently you get to live a life of privlege then get caught and waste your last 10 or so years in jail. If you are a minority expect to live all BUT 10 years of your life in jail or the slums. This is bullshit.
Judicial hipocracy never ceases to stun me.
Here turn over everything you have. No wait your wife can keep 2 million and the millions you paid out to your friends and family is legitmate income to them so just give us back what is left.
So who got political contributions from him?
My opinion: He needs his fucking legs cheese gratered off and his face given a date with a belt sander. That wouldn't be cruel or unusual... rather fitting and the closest thing his victims will get to justice. For those with weak stomaches how about he pushes a rock uphill every day until the rock and gravity win.
-=[ Who Is John Galt? ]=-
Bullshit.
Not bullshit. There is not an unlimited supply of health care in either public or private systems. Rationing *always* happens in one form or another.
Of course, there are also many nations with fully private health care that are at least twice as efficient as your own system, which should be ringing bells in your head right about now. The problem isn't about public/private, the problem lies elsewhere.
Absolutely correct. The US healthcare manages to combine the worst of both worlds: the lack of guaranteed coverage, and the lack of competition and pricing signals. I primarily blame the ridiculous concept we have that our employers should pay for our health insurance. This makes no sense whatsoever; it eliminates direct competition and routes people into one-size-fits-all plans, and it means if you lose your job you're doubly screwed. It makes no more sense for my employer to pay for my health insurance than it does for them to pay for my house or car.
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
Not bullshit. There is not an unlimited supply of health care in either public or private systems. Rationing *always* happens in one form or another.
That's not what the GGP was arguing. He implied that rationing is peculiar to socialized health care. That is bullshit.
I primarily blame the ridiculous concept we have that our employers should pay for our health insurance. This makes no sense whatsoever; it eliminates direct competition and routes people into one-size-fits-all plans, and it means if you lose your job you're doubly screwed. It makes no more sense for my employer to pay for my health insurance than it does for them to pay for my house or car.
Is that really it? I think it might be more complicated. I get really suspicious of the fact that insurance companies have so much control over what they cover, and get to deny coverage for strictly financial reasons. In the private health care transaction, the one who controls access to the treatment (insurance companies) has all the power. The health care consumer is stuck. They need the treatment, they have no choice. They either pay, or go without and get sicker or die. Any transaction with that much power imbalance between two of the parties is ripe for exploitation. You're certainly on the right track though, I think.
Rule of Slashdot #0: You and people like you are not representative of the larger population. - A.C.
prison is there as a punishment. Madoff is most definitely a danger to society, he has bankrupted companies, destroyed peoples retirement assets and put people out of work in a time when they can least afford it, the pain and mental suffering he has caused is massive. Madoff is a piece of scum that if anything is even more of a danger to society than any murderer or rapist as he affects the lives of many more people. Prison is not just a deterent, it is a PUNISHMENT, The only truly sad thing is that he was not caught earlier and he got to enjoy the fruits of his evil for many many years when he should have been rotting in a dungeon somewhere. Madoff commited his crimes over a 30+ year period, he obviously has very low moral standards so what is to stop him scamming others if he is let out, In this case the cost of his imprisonment is worth every penny.
If we did what you say, I think everyone would move to "scamming" or "pyramid schemes". "setting an example" is not trivial. If laws become weak, societies and eventually civilizations fall. His scam had victims who were 90 years old going back into the work force, had retired people suffer for nothing but trusting them. Grow some balls and let the guilty suffer.
Yeah, 'in between jobs and waiting for coverage to kick in'. LOL. Because COBRA is absolutely affordable for people between jobs. COBRA can easily exceed $1,000/month. Why don't you actually cite something that backs your statement.
that thought he was their greedy ticket to early riches - you deserved this. There is no short-cut in life. You took one and you were wiped out because of your greed. Perhaps you'll learn in your next life. And welcome back to the work force.
I know that I tend to take an extreme view when I see shit like this, so bear with me.
And I don't know what the legal definition of fraud versus treason is, but, I'd like to pose the question:
When you defraud a large number of people, isn't that a lot like committing treason against your country? If so, where do you draw the line, and say, "THE LINE HAS BEEN CROSSED"?
Considering this was the largest Ponzi scam ever, and it touched probably hundreds of thousands of lives, either directly, or indirectly, would you be willing to call it Treason?
I don't think I would mind, but, more importantly, what do you think?
They call us sheeple, I wonder why?
Mods, Slashdot does not have a +1 agree moderation. Parent doesn't attempt to seriously address even the most obvious objection to his philosophy. I guess it's interesting that some people can't make the distinction between a fact and their own opinion, but that too is not what +1 interesting was intended for.
I'm not for excessive jail sentences, and I think his is probably pretty excessive. But, no jail? Hell no:
a) He *was* a threat to property, losing people's whole nesteggs (who were stupid enough to invest the whole nestegg in one investment.) Don't pretend what he did was harmless.
b) It IS a deterrent -- you might not like it. But, what risk is there for a scammer if the entire penalty is expecting them to pay back what they scammed?
c) You are saying he should be released, simply with "restrictions on what he can and can't do economically"... well, what he did was ALREADY illegal and he knew it -- do you think someone like this would follow some court order? No they would not.
Here's justice. Put Madoff in the stocks off Times Square. Put a Presidential and heck, Gubernatorial, Pardon, absolving anybody who kills the bastard, mutilates his corpse, or otherwise does something in the area.
For good measure, throw in his wife and sons, and any of the executives or decision makers of his companies or even financial regulators involved.
Too bad the constitution prohibits cruel and unusual punishment. Oh well. But it'd be a nice and savage lesson.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/30/business/30bernietext.html
Following is a transcript of Bernard L. Madoffâ(TM)s statement to the court during his sentencing, as provided by the court:
Jine Lee/Bloomberg News " Your Honor, I cannot offer you an excuse for my behavior. How do you excuse betraying thousands of investors who entrusted me with their life savings? How do you excuse deceiving 200 employees who have spent most of their working life working for me? How do you excuse lying to your brother and two sons who spent their whole adult life helping to build a successful and respectful business? How do you excuse lying and deceiving a wife who stood by you for 50 years, and still stands by you? And how do you excuse deceiving an industry that you spent a better part of your life trying to improve?
There is no excuse for that, and I donâ(TM)t ask any forgiveness.
Although I may not have intended any harm, I did a great deal of harm. I believed when I started this problem, this crime, that it would be something I would be able to work my way out of, but that became impossible. As hard as I tried, the deeper I dug myself into a hole. I made a terrible mistake, but it wasnâ(TM)t the kind of mistake that I had made time and time again, which is a trading mistake. In my business, when you make a trading error, youâ(TM)re expected to make a trading error, itâ(TM)s accepted. My error was much more serious. I made an error of judgment. I refused to accept the fact, could not accept the fact, that for once in my life I failed. I couldnâ(TM)t admit that failure and that was a tragic mistake.
I am responsible for a great deal of suffering and pain. I understand that. I live in a tormented state now knowing of all the pain and suffering that I have created. I have left a legacy of shame, as some of my victims have pointed out, to my family and my grandchildren. Thatâ(TM)s something I will live with for the rest of my life. People have accused me of being silent and not being sympathetic. That is not true. They have accused my wife of being silent and not being sympathetic. Nothing could be further from the truth. She cries herself to sleep every night knowing of all the pain and suffering I have caused, and I am tormented by that as well. She was advised not to speak publicly until after my sentencing by our attorneys, and she complied with that. Today she will make a statement about how she feels about my crimes. I ask you to listen to that. She is sincere and all I ask you is to listen to her.
Apologizing and saying I am sorry, thatâ(TM)s not enough. Nothing I can say will correct the things I have done. I feel terrible that an industry I spent my life trying to improve is being criticized terribly now, that regulators who I helped work with over the years are being criticized by what I have done. That is a horrible guilt to live with. There is nothing I can do that will make anyone feel better for the pain and suffering I caused them, but I will live with this pain, with this torment for the rest of my life. I apologize to my victims. I will turn and face you. I am sorry. I know that doesnâ(TM)t help you. Your Honor, thank you for listening to me. â
My favorite quote doesn't fit into 120 characters. Now no one will like me.
> That means he'll be eligible for parol in 2136.
Nah, he's betting on an overflow error in 2038 to spring him early!
what about house burglars and car thieves? Generally, they sneak around in the night and just "borrow" stuff you're not using "non-violently", just like him. What if the mailman stole your paychecks from the mail, or your company just stopped paying your salary? What about the bank manager that pockets $20k because she can't pay her mortgage? Nobody was "hurt" when it was taken, right.
Like others, he probably didn't plan to swindle people, he just got swept up and figured he'd "fix" the books later, when business got better. It's harder to admit total failure at your business, that you'll die broke and out of work, and that you honestly lost billions than to hide it and hope nobody notices. Same thing happens at the DMV when the middle management is worried about unions and benefits and break time than just getting their job done... he just screwed more people.
But we have accounting laws to make people ACCOUNTABLE for others money... honest companies work hard to build investor confidence and to follow the law... if there's not consequences for breaking the law then ALL the money is at risk, everywhere.
No. He's been in jail for months.
In the words of the New Yorker, on his bail hearing a few months back: "As soon as Sorkin finished asking that Madoff's bail be continued, Chin said curtly, "I don't need to hear from the government. It is my intention to remand Mr. Madoff." Immediate applause, quickly tamped down by the Judge. Moments later, two court officers approached Madoff, who stood silently and still, and then he moved his arms a little so that his hands were behind his back. And then there was a click."
That was Madoff's last moment of freedom for the rest of his life. Madoff is Federal inmate #61727-054 at the Metropolitan Correctional Center, New York City, NY. That's a maximum security facility. Here is Madoff's cell.
MCC isn't a long-term facility, so the Bureau of Prisons will probably move him after a while.
More antisemitism from the Slashdot crowd. If they wanted to do the job right, Madoff should have gotten 5 years (tops), 10 years probation and be tasked with recovering the money with market-based solutions.
Instead, you all are cheering as an old Jewish man goes to jail. I smell 1930s Germany here and I don't like it.
The small prudent banks were not isolated from the rest of the economy by any means. Consider a bank that only loaned to individual borrowers with a very high credit score and a stable income, say in the automaking business, or perhaps working at a top financial firm. Or only loaned to a very well managed document shredding company who spent all their time on wall street shredding the evidence of failure. There is absolutely no way to make sane loans in an economy where the largest banks and the largest loans and investments are unsound.
The recession will also significantly reduce deposits, which will have an impact on all banks large or small, insane or prudent.
For your idea to work, the truly smart companies and individuals would need to predict the recession years in advance and determine which businesses and investments would survive unscathed and loan and invest accordingly. Like most libertarian principles, the unrestricted free market requires the "winners" to possess the power of supernatural prediction.
Fully agreed. Here in Canada, due to having Crohn's Disease and requiring expensive biologics for TNF-alpha suppression, along with other medications like Cipro, Pentasa, laxatives, pain medication, etc, my drug costs run over $80,000 / year. All but $1000 is covered by the Province of Ontario. I'd say that that's some pretty impressive and thorough coverage.
Yet people still come from around the world and pop across the border from your beloved Canada to seek treatment in the US, because it's the best in the world. I wonder why that is?
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
Bullcrap. He committed a felony. You do that, you go to prison. He should lose everything he has, go to prison and spend the rest of his miserable life breaking rocks or some other kind of hard labour. And if you say that's cruel and unusual, it is not cruel, its still less pain than he caused, and if we actually had balls and treated our criminals AS criminals, it wouldn't be unusual.
Here in Denmark, "the Danish Bernie Madoff", Stein Bagger, just got 7 years. Of course he only swindled about 150 million dollars, so proportionately he got off worse.
Is slashdot a madoff like ponzi scheme? Well maybe, maybe not...
I'm guessing some people are investing their time typing in comments into slashdot in the hopes to get payed back in kudos which can grant them moderator points and attention on story submissions which makes slashdot more readable (thus improving the visiblity of their funny and insightful comments). Being naive, those people think that their kudos are banked and recorded by slashdot. But what if the moderator points being given out the old-timer really aren't because of their comments or story submissions (because as old timers are out-of-touch) but being paid out to the old-timers even though newbies make the most new investment (submit all the kool stories and have all the funny and insightful comments).
Could slashdot itself could just be a ponzi scheme? The newbie feel that their kudos are being banked, but is their time investment really being paid out in moderator points the original old-timers? That's the definition of a pyramid or ponzi scheme...
If so, how can this ponzi scheme collapse? Maybe newbies will get upset and wonder why all their kudos don't result in moderator points, they complain and stop writing insightful comments and submitting kool stories. When this happens everything goes to hell and nobody wants to read slashdot anymore. Then all those people who spent their time writing comments for kudos get screwed as the potential ponzi scheme collapses and their investment in writing funny and insightful comments goes for naught.
Meanwhile, the slashdot editors are aggregating all the commentors investment in kudos and trading them to advertizers for dollars and skimming those dollar and spending thier time in other ways that should instead be invested back into editing slashdot. Hmm... Maybe there's something to this...
</TINFOILHAT> ;^)
(posting anon for obvious reasons
I think he should have been sentenced to 1 year for every million dollars he stole. He'd be doing over 40,000 years.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Excuse me, but...
I lost my job over this when my employer tanked because of Madoff's scam, and I never had a dime invested with him. This has affected all kinds of people!
Grandparent post, 2 sentences later:
I lost my sig.
Prison should be reserved for only dangerous people
I'm sure that if it was your life savings that Bernie fucked up, you'd have a different opinion. Prison is for thieves too.
Madoff is not a danger to society.
Madoff is not a physical danger to society. Your financial planner running off with your money is certainly a danger.
Why should my tax dollars pay to lock away someone who wouldn't threaten anyone's lives, property, etc if he was out on the streets (with again restrictions on what he can and can't do economically).
What the fuck do you think it was that Bernie stole? It was people's property! Your money is your property. He might not be much of a threat to that property now because everyone has been warned about him, but that still doesn't change the fact that he owes a debt to society for his crime. If he on the streets he can pull his scam again, using a third party to keep his name out of the loop. He has already demonstrated that he can't be trusted. He will likely draw his last breath in a 5x7 cell, and that's justice.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Wait, you are telling me that in a country where we can ban criminals from even voting, in an age where everything leaves paper trails a mile wide we can't get someone to watch his finances?
Three points here. 1. Not every state bars felons from voting, so this is not a "country where we can ban criminals from even voting". 2. Even in states where felons can't vote, some do illegally. Don't you remember the bitching in 2000 in Florida because the Republicans wanted to compare voter rolls with lists of known felons? 3. Who will watch his finances? A forensic accountant? Won't we have to pay that accountant? If we're paying to keep an eye on Bernie, that negates your whole point about it being a waste of our money to incarcerate him. He'll cost us money either way and in prison he'll pay for his crime.
And really, yes, he ruined a lot of lives, that part is unquestionable but he isn't violent.
It doesn't matter if he's violent. If you were to poison someone, that's not violence, but if they die it's still murder. If you use influence over a female co-worker to pressure her into sex, that's not violent but it's still rape. If you put GHB into a girl's drink and have sex with her after she passes out, again it's not violent but it's still rape.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Are you going to hire Madoff for anything major?
What's to stop him from incorporating a new business in Nevada? Secure Investments Inc. Oh, that's right we'll ban him from doing it. (let's disregard the fact that it stealing other people's money is banned in the first place) What's to stop him from having his wife set up the corporation, even though he really controls it? Extend the ban to him and his wife. OK. What if he has his children set up the corporation? Extend the ban to them too... What about some of her personal friends? What if he finds a former victim and says that he'll help them get their money back if they set up the dummy corporation? Oh, that's right. We'll ban him from stealing anyone's money. This time we'll tell him we REALLY mean it because even though he wasn't allowed to do it last time, we didn't specifically tell him that we REALLY mean it.
He did nothing prison-worthy.
Fraud. Larceny. Theft. All of those are prison-worthy. You're acting like they found him with a $10 bag of dope.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
His entire argument is some of the dumbest shit that I've heard all month.
It's almost like when a little kid learns about the differences between rich people and poor people then wants the president to make a law so that there'll be no more poor people.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
So your solution is to allow the person who swindled 65 billion dollars to go back into the financial institutions and swindle even MORE off fresh mugs to pay off his "debt" ?
Because like it or not, "market solutions" is just another buzzword for selling gold plated turds, the same thing that Bernie and most of the markets have been doing for years, and then labelling it as real "growth", while at the same time the real GDP of the country (in terms of manufacturing, agriculture etc), has all but vanished.
Fuck the race card, it has no bearing on this ... are you saying you can commit any crime you want provided you are Jewish, and then pull a Godwin when it comes to sentencing ?
We are cheering because an old BAD BASTARD went to jail. I smell something here, emanating from you.
Prison should be a place where we keep people who could cause physical harm to others if released.
Why do you feel people only deserve to be protected from "physical" harm ?
Where does a robber who threatens to shoot people but doesn't actually hurt anyone fit into your worldview ?
as it is white collar crime, he will be out in 11 months or so.
I thought it was awfully late for that pig fucker to grow a conscience. He certainly didn't show any such regard for the people whose lives he was going to ruin while he was living his life of lavish luxury. Most of us will never see a fraction of what he had. The people he defrauded will be lucky if they don't end up homeless because of his actions. I think he wasn't sorry he did those things. I think he's sorry he got caught. No punishment that we could come up with could possibly make up for that. Although I tend to atheism, it's guys like this that make me hope that I'm wrong and that there is actually a Hell, even though I'd be joining him there eventually as a nonbeliever. I'd have a few suggestions for the suggestion box, at least.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
What did you expect to happen to your money given to a man named Madoff. I assume it's pronounced with a long 'a'...
nobody wants to spend their 200th birthday in prison
Yes. He directly caused the deaths of at least two people, and he has
destroyed at least a fraction of countless people's lives. If it were
up to me, I would throw him to his victims, and absolve them for reducing
him to a greasy smear on the ground. Then I'd make every single person
who got one dime from him (wife, children, relatives, employees of his
racket) pay back all they received from him. If they no longer have it,
I'd sell their property and garnish their wages.
Yes, be happy that you do not live in a world rules by the likes of me. :-)
No good deed goes unpunished...
the doctors get paid the same really no matter what they do
I'm currently in France when general practitionners often complain that they aren't getting paid enough compared with specialists/surgeons. I ran a quick check. They charge 21 euros per person (usually paid directly by social security) and they spend between 7 and 15 minutes per patient. That's a LOT more money than I make with as much studying.
with socialized healtcare if you have a non-common illness the answer will always be to wait longer
Wait time has nothing to do with socialized medicine or not. It's purely an organizational problem. I've been around hospitals a lot lately, and we never had to wait more than a few minutes for anything. While in the US everybody tries to go shopping for the best specialist in the field who at the same time won't take your firstborn as payment, and you end up with a 6 weeks wait line for some kind of interventions simply because you are afraid to trust the other guys doing the same thing. Here they just tell you where to go. Tomorrow, early in the morning.
Non-Linux Penguins ?
If you say you need antibiotics for something, chances are in the US you can get them for whatever weak reason, with socialized healtcare if you have a non-common illness the answer will always be to wait longer.
So whenever a patient comes to a doc and he can't figure out what he has, the good idea would be to pump him full of antibiotics? That's a splendid idea if you want to breed a strain of resistant germs in your population, but not really one if you plan to have a healthy population.
Antibiotics are used as a last line defense resort here. Not first. Not even close to it. And personally I'd be very concerned if everyone was popping antibiotics whenever they have the sniffles. Yes, that means that you won't get that bug out of your system in 4 days, it will take 7 days. In total, though, the chance to create some bacteria you can't battle anymore gets smaller.
Yes, that's what socialized healthcare is about: Health of your total population. Not a selected few that can afford it.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Well, to be fair it does work a bit different here (also socialized healthcare system), I don't just get any treatment my doc prescribes, for the more expensive ones I need the ok from a state doc. Usually it's a formality, the only thing this should ensure is that docs don't simply pass patients around to rack up nice paychecks for their friends.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
The people who lost money in the Madoff scam are no worse off than the vast majority of people in this world who did not have hundreds of thousands sitting around in investments.
I find it hard to get upset about their plight.
Do those people now find it easier to sympathise with the plight of the other poor people of the world? No they don't. They just care about themselves and whine endlessly. It is worth pointing out that the attitude of most of those whose voices have been heard on the news, towards the thief who took their money, is also extremely unChristian.
They allowed their own greed to dictate their actions and look where it got them.
As a Swede, I find it amusing how my country is used by people of shall we say socialist sympathies as the example of heaven on earth. Granted, not all things are bad here, but healthcare certainly is. Let me put it this way: if you are seriously ill, you go to Germany. Not only are there endless queues in Sweden for any more complicated treatment but the survival rates are among Europe's lowest. The statistics has improved somewhat in the last years since the state monopoly on running hospitals has been removed.
The idea that we have "free healthcare" is nonsense as well. First it's free as in "free lunch". You pay, just not to the people who provide the healthcare but to the state which then distributes it as it sees fit. Second, you actually do pay directly. There is a top cap that is applied to certain treatments and certain medicine - far from all.
Thankfully, these remnants of the "Swedish model" from the '70s (borrow and tax) are dying out. Things are getting better. In some respects we are far less socialist than the US. We have less regulation of financial markets. We have no estate tax or gift tax etc..
... why Jews have a money-grubbing reputation.
RIAA, Madoff, etc.
It's a long list. It's not pretty, and it reinforces some pretty ugly stereotypes, dating back to
the time before Shakespeare wrote "The Merchant of Venice" ( there was a reason he
wrote the character of Shylock ).
What I am saying isn't politically "correct", but if you have any intellectual courage, you will
know this :
The TRUTH doesn't have any relationship to politics or correctness. It is simply the truth,
and it stands alone.
Fool me once, shame on you ... fool me twice, shame on me.
I think people are onto him by now.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Bernie is a very smart man and must know more than he's telling. He knows this and so do those whom he worked with on this scheme. He must also know that he's a dead man now that he's the "only" person involved. I wonder just how long he will last in that fancy pants prison?
They could set him to work investigating fraud, I'm sure his talents would be very useful. Just like Leonard Crappo. In that film.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
The Cleveland Clinic is in the same boat, doctors are salaried so there is no incentive for them to run as many tests as they can fit in to milk the patient/insurance company out of as much money as they can.
But the US won't be able to afford socialized health care until they do away with the insane wrongful death/negligence payouts. The lawsuits have driven up insurance costs for doctors so high that their only way to stay afloat is to raise prices. If the government was picking up the tab... err I mean taxpayers... then we're just hurting ourselves even more.
If the doctor is really that bad he should lose his license to practice, not have to pay out $10 million and get to keep going.
"Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
Let me just say that as a Swede I do not agree with any of the above comment. It is so typical to think your own country is the worst in the world for health care and the parent poster is a very typical example of the "everything sucks" attitude that is frequent among the affluent last few generations in Scandinavia who essentially has had it all.
Does that mean he'll be 221 when he gets out ?
davecb5620@gmail.com
... how significant is to lose your freedom.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
"Can I ask why this article is tagged "republicans"?
Cause republican is a generic term for a complete anal-retentive bastard. As in hey dude, are you a republican or something.
davecb5620@gmail.com
As despicable as this guy is, you can't blame him for the suicides of these people.
Shit happens in life, life is not fair, that does not mean I will automatically kill myself when life throws a problem at me.
The death of these people was their own decision, Maddof is only guilty of swindling their money.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
The idea is to remove those people from society.
That is it.
If you think it is such a nice way of life, go on, what the heck are you waiting for to acceded to it?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Worse surely is that when they find a new job, they might not be covered for a pre-existing condition. That makes it even worse.
Sentencing people for doing illegal things serves three purposes:
- to protect society from further harm
- to inflict 'pain' (in whatever form) on the perpetrator
- to gain a sense of vindication by the victims
That's the standard lecture, and you should have known it.
Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
That is righteous anger. Madoff WILL be transferred to a min. security holding center - which is a far cry from the cell pictured elsewhere. He'll have phone, TV, hell probably golf and god knows what else his friends in high places will provide. Madoff got off with a slap on the wrist. He may ought to be hanged.
Of the top 40 or so countries in the world, the US has the most inefficient health care system. It's twice as inefficient as the next most inefficient health care system.
So what is the real problem? Why is it that in the US, you have absurdly high numbers of people with no coverage at all, and yet you spend more per person on health care than any other country? Follow the money....
I've heard that statistic so many times I'm starting to believe it but have yet to see a lick of evidence or even an explanation about what 'efficient' means in this context. Reminds me of a call center where your 'efficiency' is measured as inversely proportional to the amount of time you spend on the phone and nothing to do with the number of problems fixed. I am against government heath care on general principle but fully admit that in many respects it can solve many of the problems that the US system has while generating completely different problems.
Personally, I think the biggest problem is idiot doctors who are feed facts and not taught how to think through a problem. Add in all the technology and pills that has been developed over the years and you end up with a mixture of incompetent pill pushing doctors who pay out the nose for malpractice insurance and run many unnecessary expensive tests. Not a good place to be.
And a final point, absolutely no one in the USA has no coverage at all. It is required by law that if anyone comes into an emergency room at any hospital they will be treated. They just don't have health insurance to cover the cost for them. There is a difference and we can argue if this is a good thing or not.
If you say you need antibiotics for something, chances are in the US you can get them for whatever weak reason, with socialized healtcare if you have a non-common illness the answer will always be to wait longer.
Again, bullshit. If I need antibiotics for something, my doctor writes me a prescription for antibiotics, and I go get it filled. Of course, if I don't actually need antibiotics, my doctor doesn't have an incentive to feed me medication that I don't actually need.
And this is a very good thing. Over-prescription of broad-spectrum antibiotics leads to drug-resistance emerging (at best) earlier than it would otherwise do. This can be compounded by not completing the course (which is a lot more likely if you weren't that ill in the first place - you may well stop when you start to fell better).
Which means that not only is it not true that you can't get antibiotics when you need them under a "socialised" health care system, but it's also the case that we're all better off because you don't get antibiotics when you don't really need them.
Hollering "America, Fuck Yeah!" at the top of your lungs and expecting me to collapse at your Patriotic Fervor does not constitute debate. Come back when you can explain why 45 million Americans have no insurance coverage. Come back when you can explain why America's health care system costs about $6k/person, when Canada's health care system costs $3K/person (and covers everyone), and most universal health care nations do better than that. Until you can answer some of these questions, get back under your bridge.
Rule of Slashdot #0: You and people like you are not representative of the larger population. - A.C.
I have to admit that there is some truth to what you say. Regardless of how much money was involved, should his punishment really exceed that of a murderer?
Why not? Certainly it is not as harmful to steal the life savings of one person as it would be to murder one person, but is it less harmful to steal the life savings of thousands of people as it would be to murder one person? Before Madoff, this might have been considered a reductio ad absurdum fallacy, but this is humanity we're talking about: we face the absurd on almost a daily basis, and here we have just such a case.
To put it in terms Madoff might understand, what his crimes lack in margin they make up in volume.
Should Madoff be banned from operating a company? Sure.
You know, it's interesting: I came from a hiring/interviewing seminar recently where they explained that one of the things you're not allowed to ask about is criminal record. So, unless his sentence specifically states "never operate a company," the law apparently thinks that past, massive fraud ought not prevent you from being placed in a second position of trust. Once you've done your time, you're supposed to get a clean slate.
For the love of Mike, can we get people to stop quoting the bogus $65B figure?
If I take a dollor from you today and claim I'm going to turn it into a million by tomorrow, and tomorrow I don't have the million, how much have I swindled? One million? Or one dollar?
$65B is the total of money Madoff said he made for all his clients. The thing is, he never made it, since he was using money from later investors to show gains for old ones. That's why it's a pyramid scheme. The "value" of a pyramid isn't the amount of the supposed, fictional eventual payoff, it's the value of all the real money that went into it, which in this case was a lot less than $65B.
In the U.K., under the NICE system, they set a price limit on every condition. If they can save a year of life for about $50,000, they will do it. If it costs more than that, NICE recommends against it, but if people complain about it, the government usually gives in and pays for it anyway.
So, not many $400,000 liver transplants being done then? Granted, the US only averages around 1/year/50,000 population...yeah, I see the UK averages around 1/100,000 population. Per capita, the US transplant list is 300x longer, with many more people "allowed" to get liver than there are livers available. That's the availability of healthcare, or the expectation of "rationing" that many in the US have: if a new liver might help you, you can get one, limited only by the number of people willing to give one up.
Really, I suspect that countries with socialized care don't even notice that their care is being restricted - CAT scan for an asymptomatic bump on the head? I think not. And I suspect that people in the US don't realize that much of their care is unnecessary. If the level of care in the US were actually productive, let alone necessary, our outcomes measures would be well above Canada, UK, Sweden, etc and they're not. Every unnecessary test is still margin for the hospital and reason for the insurance company to hike premiums. It's a very easy game, then, for the insurance companies, drug companies, and for-profit hospitals to play: to frighten people by implying that they won't be able to get an aspirin anymore without a form filed in triplicate at a grungy office downtown.
Bernie, is that you?
>> Madoff's victims gasped and cheered when he was sentenced to 150 years in prison
That's just leaves the SEC and the Fed.
-- I was raised on the command line, bitch
Couldn't a guy with billions of dollars in unknown assets call for someone to break him out of prison and transport him to an island in the shape of a skull or spider where he could carry out more evil deeds with the rest of his billions?
Only 150 years? They should have sentenced him for 15,000 years so when he gets out the bene gesserit and Atreides can kick his ass.
Read for an explanation of why that number is so overly inflated it's ridiculous. Also, I'm 22, if I wanted insurance I could get it, same with a shitton of young people. It costs ~100-120 a month to get yourself covered, less than car insurance for most young people 18-30, yet they refuse to get it out of their own free will.
"No amount of money is worth 1 human life. When you understand and accept that fundimental rule, humans will then posses the mindset to move past material gain and into the stars we all share."
-Neruos, 2009
What we have is a non violent crime. And now we get to pay for his incaqrceration for 10-15 years. I wouldn't think he will live much longer past that.
How about we strip all his assets, bar him from making investments or working in the financial sector, and make him a felon.
This seems cheaper and more just.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
The present case is not that the people get to keep their money. They were bailed out by taxpayers, except that the bankers were bailed out even more. But every cent of that bailout is ultimately paid for by everyone, including those depositors, in the form of taxes and inflation.
The bailout was utterly corrupt and harmed the people it claimed to help. The only people who the bailout protected, were the people who caused the problems.
Let's say the bailout had not happened, and you only got $100k in FDIC payments even though you had $150k in your checking account. So you think the bailout got you $50k for "free", right? No. There is no such thing as free. Your grandchildren are going to spend their whole lives paying back that $50k.
Destruction happens and once it has happened, there is nothing that the government is capable of doing, to retroactively make it not have happened. The most they can do is pretend it didn't happen, by hiding the cost. Your $50k was gone. The banker lost even more. He got Congress to pay him a shitload of your money, so that he has a smile on his face. You settled for far far less.
Or to put it another way: the economy produces. Sometimes it loses, but on average things keep getting better. But Congress does not produce. I don't mean that in a cynical way, implying that if we had better people running the country, Congress would then have the capacity to produce wealth; no, the capability simply doesn't exist. When Congress hands out money it is always Zero Sum. Always. If someone comes out ahead, then everyone else loses.
I primarily blame the ridiculous concept we have that our employers should pay for our health insurance.
The reason that employers pay for health insurance in the US is that wages were frozen during WWII, and when companies needed to compete for scarce labor, they did so by offering benefits, like healthcare. Who would you have pay for your health insurance?
Your "fair share" is NOT in my wallet.
I'm not saying there aren't problems, retard. I'm saying that the way America's health care is set up encourages cutting-edge care even if not everyone has access to it. You're making the implicit assumption that everyone has a right to health care and that if that isn't the case, the system as a whole is completely worthless. That's called "throwing the baby out with the bath water" in other circles.
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
People like to classify all financial crimes as non-violent. But, the lost money (my understanding is a lot of charities, particularly Jewish charities lost a lot of money to Madoff) can have VERY real, very BAD consequences for people who otherwise would have been helped by those charities with that money. If someone who needs medical help, medicine, food, clothing, or shelter, or other emergency assistance is unable to get it because of Madoff, isn't it the same as if he robbed them of those things? If someone who was supposed to go to college/university on a scholarship from one of those charities cannot, is that any less of a violence against them just because you didn't beat them up or stab them?
Saying a crime is non-violent is a whitewash when it devastates people's lives.
However homeless FREQUENTLY commit small crimes exactly because it gets them freem room&board for a few month, maybe up to a year. It is a common and well-known strategy among them homeless.
US-UK-Israel: The real Axis of Evil
this man needs to be torture'ed beating to with in inches of his life
then kanned salt poured over his wounds
left to heal then the process started all over again
all of the people that worked with him also same treatment for them
the people that was suppost to be watching all of this sames needs to be done
the man is 77 years old with a 150 year sentence
hes going to end up at a old people fed resort low to mid range prison most likely fort dix or something
living out the rest of his live in a fed resort with out much fear for his life
this man is worst them all of the pedos out there that distroy peoples lifes
hes has distroys so many countless more
i really think that this man should be hung out to dry for along time so as to let be known that this will not be allowed
Yes. You'd have to commit mass murder to reach the same level of total damage to human lives as this scam has caused.
Yet people still come from around the world and pop across the border from your beloved Canada to seek treatment in the US, because it's the best in the world. I wonder why that is?
The treatment might be the best, it is certainly among the best, but overall it is certainly not twice as good as the rest of the developed world! In most contexts, a small gain in effectiveness for an additional 100%+ to cost isn't considered a good trade-off. If you contend that health care is different because most people value it far more than anything else, I will contend this is exactly why healthcare shouldn't be left entirely to the free market (the demand is far too inelastic for many normal market dynamics to apply)!
Also there are more than a few US citizen that travel to other countries, including countries with universal coverage, because certain procedures are unavailable or more expensive in the USA (even including the necessary travel expenses to foreign doctors). Medical tourism is a far more complicated phenomena than you are trying to imply.
Are you assuming that it would be impossible for him to assume a different identity and that it would be impossible for him to conduct business with people who never see his face? I'd wager half the financial advisors who were directing money his way never knew what he looked like until the scandal broke.
Down with the career politician! SUPPORT TERM LIMITS
The institutions that failed were for the most part not covered at all by FDIC insurance, which is only available to commercial banks for insurance of private consumer deposits. Lehman Brothers, Merrill Lynch, AIG, etc were not commercial banks and their liabilities were not consumer deposits. However they were deeply embedded in the broader credit markets, including the commercial paper markets that many large industrial companies use to smooth their finances.
Lehman was allowed to fail, the reserve fund broke the buck and there was a tremendous run on the money market to the tune of $500 billion in a couple hours--stanched only by the Federal Reserve's open-ended commitment to support the money market funds. In retrospect there is a clear causation between the bankruptcy of Lehman and many very bad things in the financial markets. FDIC could not help at all since it only deals with commercial banks.
One of the problems is that the government support structure simply did not reflect the reality of the modern financial markets. Shortly after WWII, commercial banks provided over 60% of the total credit in the financial markets, funded primarily by private deposits. The FDIC was a strong backstop for the financial system in those times.
By early 2008, commercial banks provided less than 20% of the total credit, so FDIC insurance only covered a small portion of the total system. It's an incredibly important consumer protection, but it long ago ceased to be an important mitigator of broad financial problems. That is one reason you hear calls for a "systemic risk" regulator going forward.
Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
You're still dodging the most important questions: why does America's health care system cost twice as much per person as any other public or private health care system in the developed world? Who exactly is paying so the richest of the rich get to have "cutting-edge" health care (which is available elsewhere you know, medical supply companies happily sell to other countries)?
As for my implicit assumption, a surprising number people in most nations also make that assumption. Check this out, Article 25(1).
Rule of Slashdot #0: You and people like you are not representative of the larger population. - A.C.
You lost your job because the business you worked for was ran by an idiot. Considering the way Madoff's scam worked, you weren't living off his scam, you were suffering the entire time.
I realize you feel you were ripped off, however indirectly.
The reality of it is however, if your business failed because of this, it was going to fail anyway.
When the survival of your business depends on how someone outside your organization invests your money, then you have already failed, its just a matter of when you close the doors at that point.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
What is this list you speak of. My doctor can proscribe _any_ medication. Could you please expand on what virtually means? My doctor has no such limitation. She can specify _any_ treatment.
A pyramid scheme doesn't lose any money on the aggregate, and it's still a scam.
Are you adequate?
On the list?
I'm sorry, what do you think 'the list' is? You're doctor is following established rules on what he/she can/can't do for you, thats what 'the list' is.
If you're going to try and shoot down sweeping generalizations is a good idea to not make your own post completely disprove your own point while being completely oblivious to the fact that you're an idiot.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
That's a myth, actually. But quite ironically, a lot of people in the USA seek health care treatment in Mexico.
Are you adequate?
You're failing to understand precisely what "bankruptcy" means. Fundamentally, it means wiping out the shareholders of the corporations. Whether we bankrupt the banks is completely severable from whether we guarantee their customers' balances.
The better thing to do, IMO, would have been along similar lines to what FiloEleven says, but more moderate: nationalize the banks (which wipes out the shareholders) with a time cap on how long the government is allowed to own them, inject capital into them, guarantee whichever of the banks' obligations are deemed to be essential (first on the list: deposits), and then sell the banks. Result: depositors don't lose money, bank shareholders are wiped out as punishment for investing on a crappily run bank.
What we did, though, was to rescue everybody, including the shareholders. But the shareholders are precisely the folks that you should not be rescuing.
Are you adequate?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yYeZMx1Y7U#t=3m33s
Unlikely a danger my ass.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
you're an idiot
Shouldn't that be "your"?~
While I'm all for punishing him fairly, and I'm all for torture of the POS that he is. He didn't kill those people, they killed themselves.
They decided to do what was done, he didn't. He did not change their destiny, they did.
Punish him for everyone he made suffer, but people who commit suicide do so of their own will, he didn't kill them, they killed themselves, regardless of what he did.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
You don't think the safety nets affected their decision making?
Absolutely, but I don't think the safety nets were the bailouts - I think they were the golden parachutes the suits had.
Why would they give a fuck if the company goes belly-up and the economy crumbles if they can comfortably retire to a palace on a tropical paradise of their choice when it's all over? No need to get another job, no need to even talk to anyone you may have pissed off. Just spend the rest of your days sipping margaritas, sailing yachts and sleeping with gold-digging young women, or all three at once if you please.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Should he be forced to liquefy most of his assets to help pay back? Yes
No, he should be forced to liquify ALL of his ill-gotten assets. He would if he was a drug dealer.
Free Martian Whores!
Rationing *always* happens in one form or another.
We have rationing, more enlightened societies have triage. The amount of money you hold shoud NOT determine whether you get treated for an illness or not. There is no "free market" in health care.
I am not "better" than the poor just because I've been more lucky than them, and I do not deserve better health care than they get. How is the weather on Ferengenar this time of year, Zack?
Free Martian Whores!
There are some sicknesses that socialized healthcare either will not cover or will not cover thoroughly enough to really cure.
Bullshit.
I suspect you are correct, but as a US citizen I have no idea. I do know that there are some sicknesses not covered by private insurance, and others that are only partly covered.
Most of us down here envy you guys' health care system; at least, those of us with three digit IQs who aren't so filthy rich they can afford cancer treatments like I can afford a candy bar.
Free Martian Whores!
it eliminates direct competition
And as an example I'll point to the Vitrectomy I had last year. After the surgery I had to have antibiotic eye drops, so I shopped around for the best price, which varied greatly.
But my copay was the same no matter where I bought the drugs, so I wound up saving money (at $4.50 per gallon gasoline) by buying them at the closest pharmacy, which had the highest price for the drug.
Talk about an incredibly stupid sytem...
Free Martian Whores!
The list is called the PBA, pharma benefit scheme.
New drugs have to be approved before they are put on the list, virtually means all drugs but ones not yet one the list
I am well aware of what the list is. It is the PBS
approved list, as in Paharma benefit scheme.
New drugs need approval before going on the list so they may not apply. Irrespective of that he can still prescibe the new drugs but they are not subsidised. So there is no limitation on what treatment can be given.
Before calling people idiots, you should bear in mind the old saying asshole, "It is better to keep one mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and prove it", as you have.
It's not developed in other countries though. The development happens here in the US. THAT is my point. Medical companies may happily sell to other countries, but they don't develop the treatments there by and large. America's health care system costs twice as much per person because that's a bullshit statistic... did you control for personal investment in healthcare? Type of treatment? Success of treatment? Even having treatments available? Does it count personal investment in excess care as part of the "cost", when that care simply isn't available to people even if they wanted to pay in places like Canada? People jump the border because things are available in the US that simply are not in Canada. Do they count as part of the money spent on health care, but not as part of the "per capita" part of the equation?
Why doesn't Canada mandate that everyone gets the same level of food, too? No junk food, nothing that might impact the health of people. That impacts your health care costs.
I think everyone should have a minimal level of health care. And we have that in the US. Anybody can walk into any emergency room and receive treatment. It's just that our system is set up more capitalistically... those who work are those who have.
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
Living a lie for your entire life is not as easy as you think. Can you fall asleep at night? Do you feel guilty for betraying people's trust? Have you thought about what your children would think of you when they find out?
I am not as wealthy as Madoff. Heck, I am not really wealthy at all. I still have to go to work every weekday. But I like my life, and I enjoy my job. I'd rather having an honest, normal, quiet life than living in a mansion but worrying about the knocking of my door every day.
"Quite simply, after the Lehman collapse banks weren't able to borrow money any more... As banks have to continuously refinance themselves (as bonds they issued mature etc), not being able to borrow money any more will let a bank that is perfectly fine on the asset side go belly up within days or weeks. I've seen it, post Lehman every other week a new (PRUDENT) bank almost went bankrupt and could only survive with government intervention. You see being a prudent bank helps on the asset side and in the medium term on the liability side but in the short term after a major bank collapsed EVERY bank can go bankrupt within days given that they are extremely vulnerable on the liability side." - by donj (1588293) on Tuesday June 30, @05:58AM (#28525871)
What about the Federal Reserve's "DISCOUNT WINDOW" -> http://www.frbdiscountwindow.org/discountwindowbook.cfm?hdrID=14&dtlID=43 ?
(Did they exhaust that option??)
APK
P.S.=> See, right now??? I am reading a book called
"SECRETS OF THE TEMPLE: How the Federal Reserve Runs the Country" by William Greider
It's an older book, from 1987, & I need to know if things have changed since it's writing, & you seem to be someone that MIGHT lend me some insight on this point, specifically... tia! I am also only on page 208 of 714 or so...
That is so I could personally get a "better grasp" of how things work @ those levels, because it is apparent that many of our political leaders aren't or weren't, especially during the Carter Administration!
(Which I felt was too bad, as "J.C." was imo, + that of others? An HONEST man! Rare for a politician imo, & he tried to stop a "credit crunch" but that per bank accounting ledgers, robs them of a potential CREDIT when folks pay off debts (& Carter tried, but made it worse in combination w/ Paul Volcker's measures, when he moved to the monetaristic viewpoint (but Carter is/was about the ONLY one foreign dignitaries trust in fact of our former & current political leaders)))...
Anyhow/anyways - I picked that book up to learn more about banking/finance, specifically, since it has caused so much of a "ruckus" lately, & to learn how they base their assumptions (keynsian vs. monetaristic + all the formulas (M1/M2/M3 etc./et al) that go with it, & I have had exposure to it via a Business Administration B.S. & economics (macro/micro back before 1987 in fact, & it was ALL "keynsian" John Maynard Keynes stuff I was taught back then @ least)), & the book's ALL about the entire structure of the FED + how it works!
(& it amazed me, because the Federal Reserve & it's banks have SO MUCH POWER to influence, for good &/or bad, & in reading, I did pickup on the "discount window" so far, which the FED keeps for banks who screwup, & it offers them enough to keep going, even when they screwup (repeatedly too, no less, so they can 'save themselves repeatedly' if need be)...
Thoughts?... & thanks for reply in regards to that much, especially (again) -> The "DISCOUNT WINDOW"...
By the by - MY "expertise" (such as it is) is in computers mostly for the past 16++ yrs. now professionally, not finance, but... I try to learn more about it is all, because having some business acumen helps for coders in a business environs (which is mostly what I've been involved in over time, MIS/IS/IT db work etc.) when I am able (which is NOT often anymore) & you sound pretty "up" on this! apk
It could be worse. In two words: Tom Cruise.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Let me put it this way: if you are seriously ill, you go to Germany. Not only are there endless queues in Sweden for any more complicated treatment but the survival rates are among Europe's lowest.
As a Swede I can say this comment is likely to just be rightist bias. I have never felt the need to go to Germany and know of no-one who has. Keep in mind that Swedes in general love to complain and the right wingers love it doubly so to draw attention to their alternative.
Medical care in Sweden is very good and close family members and myself have had excellent treatment available in a timely manner time and time again, for everything from surgery to life long conditions. By contrast, the one time I had a serious problem in the US - appendicitis - I was receiving new bills over a year after my day in the hospital and the numbers which my insurance had to cover were just astronomical. If I read the paperwork right I basically paid several years worth of salary for a three hour routine surgery. That just doesn't happen in Sweden. My last surgery in Sweden is just a memory and a scar - I don't even recall a single bill. Wait time was shorter than in San Jose, California in the US.
As someone else's signature here on Slashdot says: I like paying taxes. With it I buy civilization.