Slashdot Mirror
Palm Pre iTunes Syncing Back With WebOS 1.1 Update
suraj.sun points out CNet coverage of Palm's newest OS release, which restores the ability to synch with iTunes that iTunes 8.2.1 had broken. "The news was posted on Palm's blog where it listed the new features and enhancements of the software update and nonchalantly added at the end: 'Oh, and one more thing: Palm WebOS 1.1 re-enables Palm media sync. That's right — you once again can have seamless access to your music, photos and videos from the current version of iTunes (8.2.1).' Bold move, Palm. Bold move. It'll be interesting to see how Apple responds, and do you suppose the use of the phrase 'one more thing,' a phrase that Apple CEO Steve Jobs often uses to introduce a new product at the end of his keynotes, was intentional or am I just reading too much into this?"
Intentional.
Reply to That ||
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
Theres only so much though that Apple can do short of killing compatibility with older iPods. Eventually Apple will just have to give up.
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
Why as a consumer would I be so dumb as to buy a palm if my itunes only worked intermittently or had no assured path forward. Sure one could perhaps use the old version of itunes while I waited for palm to fix it. But really that's not a strategy. I'm in that boat right now with my jailbroken iphone and did I not sort of enjoy the novelty of this cat and mouse game it would be a detraction not an attraction. I can't imagine most people want a phone that might not work some of the time. who needs to waste time like that?
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
well, if anyone RTFA, there's an even more interesting quote from Palm:
Palm believes that openness and interoperability offer better experiences for users by allowing them the freedom to use the content they own without interference across devices and services, so on behalf of consumers, we have notified the USB Implementers Forum of what we believe is improper use of the Vendor ID number by another member.
Looks like Palm really is ready to turn this into a war.
I just updated my Pre too. Scares me though. While Apple is selling DRM free music, dost it really stop them from their software only syncing up to properly signed iPods? I mean I like my iPod, but if its going to be a device that needs a secure encrypted channel to transfer file for me to just use normally, I am not sure I would want to use an iPod again.
And because the world doesn't always make sense, Palm filed a complaint with the USB Implementors Forum, stating Apple is abusing the vendor ID (according to http://digitaldaily.allthingsd.com/20090723/you-can-almost-hear-the-shrieks-of-outrage-in-cupertino-cant-you/ ).
Palm better watch out- Apple will be looking to get revenge by making the iPhone compatible with Palm's music store.
My webcomic
Now announcing iTunes Update Month!
Software update will have a new update for iTunes every 4-6 days, with an ever more entertaining list of "bugfixes and improvements", none of which will mention anything about palm.
I remember them doing this awhile back for a plugin for itunes that would add a second ipod to your list on the left, that you could drag and drop FROM. That spawned three iTunes updates in two weeks. People that diff'd the updates found basically all they were doing was adjusting their plugin acceptance code. Finally on the third update, they gave up on trying to filter it by behavior, and just plain banned the name of the plugin. It was at this point the author basically said ok I'm done, they're targeting me personally and that's not a war I'm going to win.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
By forcing Apple to issue updates specifically disable their device, Palm is capitalizing on the media hype maelstrom that is lavished on Apple, keeping the name "Pre" on the lips of people who would normally only ever talk about the iPhone. So when the media covers this "war", they are in effect establishing the idea of comparability between the products that would have been hard to get through had they just gone with traditional advertising and promotions. Between this and the new Microsoft ads, it is interesting to see Apple's competitors finally starting to ratchet up their competition with a brilliant marketing company.
I don't think you understand what it is that Palm is doing here, if they were doing what you described (cracking the security of iTunes) that would be at best questionable, I for one would be completely against that kind of behavior. All that Palm is doing is changing the Vendor ID on their phone to the Vendor ID used by iPods. Basically, iTunes says "Hey, who are you?" and the Pre says "I am definately, definately, an iPod".
Unless Apple adds a new requirement to sync, there's little they can do to detect if the iPod is actually a Pre, and if they add a new requirement they'll be breaking backward compatibility with all the iPods out there that don't have the requirement implemented.
Simple: Apple makes iTunes scan not only for the iPod saying it's an iPod, but also for a valid serial number and other attributes. If Palm tries mucking around with serial numbers then Apple may well be able to buttfuck them with a lawsuit.
Palm is just being stupid. They have a lot more to lose from pissed off customers than Apple does. Palm, just make your own goddamned sync app like you should have in the first place. Yes, Apple is being a bunch of asses, but who didn't see that coming from a mile away, especially at Palm? If they want to use people's iTunes libraries, just make the sync app read the iTunes library XML file. Bloody simple.
They are just phones and music players. Is it really that big an issue ?
-- It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -- Aristotle
... to Palm's Pre emptive strike
- Things are the way they are because they're coded that way -
"d if Palm would grow a few braincells then they would write their own damn software that would read the XML file in the iTunes library"
This what the Pre already does. It is just that Palm decided to let iTunes copy the files over to the device first, instead of reading directly out of iTunes. Why should Apple care were the XML file is read? From a technical perspective it is basically the same. It saves the user from installing additional software. The is one of the nice things about the Pre, no need for any additional desktop software.
Palm could easily inter-operate with iTunes without pretending to be an iPod and abusing Apple's vendor ID. All it has to do is create its own synchronization driver.
"But wait!" the Apple-haters say. "Apple is an evil, anti-competitive wannabe-monopoly! There's no way it would allow such a thing! No way would Apple allow its precious iTunes on other devices! It wants to extend its iTunes dominance to the iPhone by locking out all competitors!"
I give you:
http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/productivity_tools/themissingsyncforpalmpre.html
(Also for BlackBerry.)
All Palm has to do is build (or license) its own connector, and Apple would let it be. Maybe it would even promote the software on Apple's own website.
I'll use it however I like. If I want to use iTunes with a home built Internet Rice Cooker/MP3 Player, I will. Boo fucking hoo for Apple, where do they get off trying to tell me what I will and will not do with my computer, software, and other hardware? You masochistic, submissive Apple fanboys may get off on being dominated by your Apple-daddy but the rest of us don't swing that way.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
When tunes are stored on an ipod they are stored in a way that creates a speedbump to just trasnfering them off. basically the names are munged. Maybe they mess with the id3 tags--don't know. But apple has long been a proponent of speedbump DRM, that is drm that gets in your way enough that most users won't hassle with defeating it.
The real trick that apple accomplished was convincing the music companies that this was sufficient protection.
IN return apple probably has to make a reasonable effort to prevent cases where pod-to-pod transfers all proliferation of music. this would include nominal efforts to never have a legitimate channel for this.
they won't care if it's not perfect. But they probably are obligated to try.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Well, actually, they're telling them that the Pre is a device made by Apple:
http://www.precentral.net/how-palm-re-enabled-itunes-sync
That's a bit shady, and for a group so concerned with open standards like USB, I would imagine more Slashdotters would find that practice questionable.
concrete5: a cms made for marketing, but strong enough for geeks.
Jobs: You synced my flagship product!
Kwisatz Haderach
Sell the spice to CHOAM
This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
Somebody mod this up. Palm is in the wrong here, but they're counting on capitalizing on anti-Apple sentiment since a lot of people are justifiably fed up with Apple. But Palm really needs to concentrate on making a better product -- if they want to compete with the iphone they've got to do more than piggy back on its success.
I really wanted to like the Palm Pre. I've still got my Treo, as beat to hell as it is, because I don't like the keyboard-less design of the iphone. (I text a lot and I like the Treo's keypad better than most). I have an ipod touch so I have most of the cool app features of the iphone without the AT+T contract. I went to the Sprint store to check out the Pre and I found it flimsy and slow, and its interface completely counterintuitive compared to the iphone. I was completely disappointed and now I might buy a Centro instead just because it's exactly what I now have except smaller and faster and it comes in green. So, yeah, I might opt for a feature set from like 1997 rather than the latest and greatest -- if that's happening in your product line, there's no way in hell you're gonna compete with the iphone.
1. There are defined APIs Apple provides to allow third party software to interact with iTunes, and do everything Palm needs.
2. Palm is better at sync software than Apple *anyway*.
Doing it this way is just begging for a visit from the fuckup fairy. Plus, I want Hotsync back. And a pony.
"All it has to do is create its own synchronization driver."
Why? All the driver would do is see the Pre and copy the files over.... kinda like it ALREADY DOES! This is because the "sync driver" is already inside the Pre. The Pre reads the iPod music library files directly. Palm already did the "hard work" of reading well documented files. They just chose to do it in a different place than the rest of the market. Why create a totally new way of storing music files, why you can just copy how someone already did it. The only reason the other devices need a driver is because they don't know how to read the library files directly.
This gives the best experience to the user. No additional software to install.
I would imagine a lot of those same Slashdotters are currently using browsers that spoof the user-agent string to pretend to be other browsers. This sort of thing is not new.
Well, actually, they're telling them that the Pre is a device made by Apple:
http://www.precentral.net/how-palm-re-enabled-itunes-sync
That's a bit shady,
No, it really isn't.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
By breaking the USB vendor ID Palm is risking the bricking of Pres whenever Apple tries to do more than just a file sync.
Just how, do you imagine, would iTunes engage the Pre's firmware update system?
The Pre does NOT manage its firmware through iTunes. There is ZERO risk to a Pre's firmware from interfacing with the iTunes application.
How is Palm not trying to force Apple into making iTunes SO restrictive about syncing that Palm can sue Apple for anti-competitive behavior, eventually forcing iTunes to be actively open.
I say that Palm is doing the exact opposite of trying to avoid a lawsuit, but their intention is to be on the 'right' end of it. It's brilliant if it works.
"It's not done 'till Palm won't run!"
Yes, Palm could conceivably read the full iTunes XML, allow the user to create playlists, and sync from there, but that would involve more work for the user, instead of allowing them to easily sync already created playlists.
Playlists are included in the iTunes XML file.
"instead of reading directly out of iTunes"
The music files in question are all stored, unencrypted on the file system referenced in the XML file. If you are already parsing the file and already have a means for copying files back and forth to the device (which the Pre does) why would you use iTunes in the first place? In addition the XML file is again, just a flat file which is unencrypted on the FS. There's absolutely no need to go through iTunes for this unless you were feeling either Lazy, Too Smart for your own good, or looking to pick a fight with Apple.
--- I do not moderate.
As held in every case about this issue, copyright and trademark law are not violated when using a competitors name for the purposes of interoperability.
It's really stupid of Apple to try and block the Pre from the iTMS eco-system. Apple sells non-DRM music through that store and makes a little bit (most goes to the record companies, but Apple still makes something and enhances their standing as the world's biggest digital music store) music through iTMS that can be played on the Pre - so why throw out this market and hope that you can force them into an iPod only to make more money now? Be nice and they might buy an iPod later because of a good experience with iTunes.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."