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Palm Pre iTunes Syncing Back With WebOS 1.1 Update
suraj.sun points out CNet coverage of Palm's newest OS release, which restores the ability to synch with iTunes that iTunes 8.2.1 had broken. "The news was posted on Palm's blog where it listed the new features and enhancements of the software update and nonchalantly added at the end: 'Oh, and one more thing: Palm WebOS 1.1 re-enables Palm media sync. That's right — you once again can have seamless access to your music, photos and videos from the current version of iTunes (8.2.1).' Bold move, Palm. Bold move. It'll be interesting to see how Apple responds, and do you suppose the use of the phrase 'one more thing,' a phrase that Apple CEO Steve Jobs often uses to introduce a new product at the end of his keynotes, was intentional or am I just reading too much into this?"
Intentional.
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Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
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Theres only so much though that Apple can do short of killing compatibility with older iPods. Eventually Apple will just have to give up.
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
Why as a consumer would I be so dumb as to buy a palm if my itunes only worked intermittently or had no assured path forward. Sure one could perhaps use the old version of itunes while I waited for palm to fix it. But really that's not a strategy. I'm in that boat right now with my jailbroken iphone and did I not sort of enjoy the novelty of this cat and mouse game it would be a detraction not an attraction. I can't imagine most people want a phone that might not work some of the time. who needs to waste time like that?
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
well, if anyone RTFA, there's an even more interesting quote from Palm:
Palm believes that openness and interoperability offer better experiences for users by allowing them the freedom to use the content they own without interference across devices and services, so on behalf of consumers, we have notified the USB Implementers Forum of what we believe is improper use of the Vendor ID number by another member.
Looks like Palm really is ready to turn this into a war.
I think they can.
Remember that updates to itunes annoys people.
"His name was James Damore."
Very true, though one expects software updates at a more frequent pace than firmware updates so one would expect that until one side or the other throws in the towel, it'll probably work less often rather than more often -- unless people who want this feature just don't update iTunes.
Is it just me, or does this have the sound of an escalating digital cold war? Palm updates, Apple Updates, Palm Updates, Apple updates. Palm Pre gets a reputation of compatibility with Itunes for the hardcore fans, just as long as they choose to sync on even weeks when Apple's busy writing patches for the new backdoors.
I like losing arguments, it just means that I can take your point and make it my own.
I just updated my Pre too. Scares me though. While Apple is selling DRM free music, dost it really stop them from their software only syncing up to properly signed iPods? I mean I like my iPod, but if its going to be a device that needs a secure encrypted channel to transfer file for me to just use normally, I am not sure I would want to use an iPod again.
Sure, Apple could release iTunes 8.2.2 a week from now, but who's going to update to it? Most people don't bother to update their software when patches are released semi-monthly, let alone weekly.
I doubt if Apple expects to be able to keep Palm out on a long-term basis. Apple's strategy of protection seems to be not so much to try to create an impregnable barrier, but rather to introduce inconveniences for those who use their products in an "unapproved" way. So if you get a Palm Pre, you'll have to check the web before you update your iTunes to make sure that Apple hasn't disabled Pre sync, and then wait for Palm to get around to fixing it.
And because the world doesn't always make sense, Palm filed a complaint with the USB Implementors Forum, stating Apple is abusing the vendor ID (according to http://digitaldaily.allthingsd.com/20090723/you-can-almost-hear-the-shrieks-of-outrage-in-cupertino-cant-you/ ).
Theres only so much though that Apple can do short of killing compatibility with older iPods.
Do you know this for a fact? If the security is tight and Palm is only squeaking through by finding the equivalent of buffer overflows or undocumented functions, I think Apple could very well win this one.
Not that I'm necessarily taking Apple's side here. It's just that Palm seems to have stumbled upon a particularly stupid and capricious business plan that counts on Apple falling asleep on the job. This back-and-forth only has to happen a few times before potential buyers will get scared away.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
Palm better watch out- Apple will be looking to get revenge by making the iPhone compatible with Palm's music store.
My webcomic
But there isn't anything "magic" that is on iPods that is just a string. Basically, what the Pre could do is just call itself an iPod classic and it would be the exact same as with the iPod classic. They rely simply on strings, both the iPod and the Pre.
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
Yeah, Palm just has to make the Pre look like an iPod to iTunes. Eventually Apple may run out of things to use to differentiate the Pre from a "real" iPod without breaking real iPods.
Now announcing iTunes Update Month!
Software update will have a new update for iTunes every 4-6 days, with an ever more entertaining list of "bugfixes and improvements", none of which will mention anything about palm.
I remember them doing this awhile back for a plugin for itunes that would add a second ipod to your list on the left, that you could drag and drop FROM. That spawned three iTunes updates in two weeks. People that diff'd the updates found basically all they were doing was adjusting their plugin acceptance code. Finally on the third update, they gave up on trying to filter it by behavior, and just plain banned the name of the plugin. It was at this point the author basically said ok I'm done, they're targeting me personally and that's not a war I'm going to win.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
Theres only so much though that Apple can do short of killing compatibility with older iPods. Eventually Apple will just have to give up.
Well yes and no. first it means that the functionality palm can offer may not always be able to exceed that of the old iphones. Suppose for example while simple tunes transfer may be possibel by emulating the old ipod, suppose that new digital ipods or ones with camera would be more recognizable by itunes and so itunes would refuse to transfer over video or voice memos from an old ipod which is not supposed to have those capabilities. SO you can only get so far pretending to be an old ipod.
second, if this is to become a game then apple could turn the tables. Have itunes interrogate the other features the palm exposes. that is, when a palm plugs in it has to do more than just look like an old ipod. it has to also have some sort of palm specific conduit for address books and other phone features. apple could have itunes hunt for those to determine the phone is a pseudoPod.
That of course ratchets things up a notch, so apple may not want to drop that bomb for a long time. But it's hard to see how palm could escape that without being in the same boat-- breaking compatibility for older pre's
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Theres only so much though that Apple can do short of killing compatibility with older iPods.
Do you know this for a fact? If the security is tight and Palm is only squeaking through by finding the equivalent of buffer overflows or undocumented functions, I think Apple could very well win this one.
Not that I'm necessarily taking Apple's side here. It's just that Palm seems to have stumbled upon a particularly stupid and capricious business plan that counts on Apple falling asleep on the job. This back-and-forth only has to happen a few times before potential buyers will get scared away.
Apple hasn't been able to protect its own iPhone from jailbreakers, what makes you think they can secure iTunes any better?
And on a more direct note, if palm needs to they could probably go so far as to completely emulate an old iPod - they do have the guy who made them working for them now - though that may be illegal, or at least lawsuit bait. Not that Palm seems worried.
More than anything I just love that this whole scenario is happening - someone is finally challenging Apple on their own turf! I'm all for open hardware an apple has always been against it, so it's nice to see a big player finally get messy with this. :)
-Taylor
Worldwide Military budgets: $2100 billion. Worldwide Space Exploration budgets: $38 billion. Really, world? Really?
Remember that updates to itunes annoys people.
BS. Apple could label it "PREVENTS HACKERS!" and people would flock to the upgrade. I find your lack of faith in the reality distortion field to be disturbing.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
This means iWar!
Sure, Apple could release iTunes 8.2.2 a week from now, but who's going to update to it? Most people don't bother to update their software when patches are released semi-monthly, let alone weekly.
Yeah, especially if you own a Pre! There is really no harm in keeping a slightly older version of itunes, they never start locking you out of anything till you're a few releases back. And although most techy Pre owners probably waited to upgrade itunes the last time anyway, and are therefore unharmed, this release will have even the non-techy owners waiting to update, after having been bitten the first time. I would bet that most people apple screwed with the last update aren't going to do it again, so Palm has effectively saved many of their customers, by giving them one chance to learn.
Hell, palm may even have known exactly how apple was going to do this, just to see how it would play out, so they would have at least one guaranteed fix of the situation.
-Taylor
Worldwide Military budgets: $2100 billion. Worldwide Space Exploration budgets: $38 billion. Really, world? Really?
Since it will be downloaded, it might indeed get queued by many people... However, I'm pretty sure you mean 'cue'.
"If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
I haven't been a big fan of Palm for many years now, but I'm starting to become a fan again.
I think it is a combination of the battle with Apple, which I hope they are able to win, and I think the woman in their commercials is amazingly hot. :)
if this is to become a game then apple could turn the tables. Have itunes interrogate the other features the palm exposes
I smell an "iTunes compatibility mode"... all Palm-specific features disabled so iTunes still can't tell the difference. ;)
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
But with the caveat of not having to deal with the possibility that an update to iTunes may break the compatibility with the Pre, no obligation to make previous version of their software available, and Palm telling their users such. I think it is pretty dumb on Palm's part that they would rely so heavily on a third party they have no control over.
By forcing Apple to issue updates specifically disable their device, Palm is capitalizing on the media hype maelstrom that is lavished on Apple, keeping the name "Pre" on the lips of people who would normally only ever talk about the iPhone. So when the media covers this "war", they are in effect establishing the idea of comparability between the products that would have been hard to get through had they just gone with traditional advertising and promotions. Between this and the new Microsoft ads, it is interesting to see Apple's competitors finally starting to ratchet up their competition with a brilliant marketing company.
Its the "Instant Messaging" war all over again. This time Apple will lose, like AOL did. Because you can be that others will join the fray, on Palm's side, to ensure device interoperabiliity.
I don't think you understand what it is that Palm is doing here, if they were doing what you described (cracking the security of iTunes) that would be at best questionable, I for one would be completely against that kind of behavior. All that Palm is doing is changing the Vendor ID on their phone to the Vendor ID used by iPods. Basically, iTunes says "Hey, who are you?" and the Pre says "I am definately, definately, an iPod".
Unless Apple adds a new requirement to sync, there's little they can do to detect if the iPod is actually a Pre, and if they add a new requirement they'll be breaking backward compatibility with all the iPods out there that don't have the requirement implemented.
Queue iTunes 8.2.2 in about 3 days. Seriously, does Palm really think they can win this? On the other hand, I respect that they're not rolling over and dying, as they did when they replaced Graffiti with Jot and wrecked handwriting recognition for their long-time users.
Why in the name of Cthulhu would anyone use iTunes to update a non iPod. Hell, with tools like SharePod you don't even need to use iTunes. Seriously, why? iTunes is the single most bloated piece of canine feces that exists ... and they dare to call it software. Can't Palm write a plugin for MediaMonkey or some other media player and just use that?
Using iTunes is a similar experience to that of eating one's own teeth.
Yep! Reminds me a lot of the early days of universal instant messengers like Trillian that logged into ICQ, MSN, etc. Protocols kept-a-changin', upgrades kept-a-happenin', and now it's all moot.
You said it perfectly though. This will be a much shorter war. Basic users could upgrade ICQ at the the drop of a hat. Upgrading iPod firmware to keep up with the war? Heh.
if this is to become a game then apple could turn the tables. Have itunes interrogate the other features the palm exposes
I smell an "iTunes compatibility mode"... all Palm-specific features disabled so iTunes still can't tell the difference. ;)
Okay then let's say itunes just waits for the one time you plug it in before turning on compatibility mode. itunes then pushes over 1000 songs that are fingerprinted in a special way. Maybe they are all car alarms and babies crying. or just diminished audio quality. or maybe nothing youo can tell at all. But then the next time you try to update even in compatibility mode, itunes recognizes the fingerprint and intentionally malfunctions. it will be enought to drive you batty if the malfunction is cleverly chosen (e.g. transfers over songs with buzzing sounds in the background so you think your speaker is busted).
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
That wont work for the people trying to interop their Pre with iTunes. They are a witness to the shenanigans.
Apple would actualy have to introduce honest-to-goodness new desirable features to get these people to consider moving forward, and what new desirable feature would be easier to implment than Pre support?
I don't think Apple can win this. I think what they are mostly afraid of is not the interop with iTunes.. its being forced to maintain that interop later on, when people come to expect it.
"His name was James Damore."
Simple: Apple makes iTunes scan not only for the iPod saying it's an iPod, but also for a valid serial number and other attributes. If Palm tries mucking around with serial numbers then Apple may well be able to buttfuck them with a lawsuit.
Palm is just being stupid. They have a lot more to lose from pissed off customers than Apple does. Palm, just make your own goddamned sync app like you should have in the first place. Yes, Apple is being a bunch of asses, but who didn't see that coming from a mile away, especially at Palm? If they want to use people's iTunes libraries, just make the sync app read the iTunes library XML file. Bloody simple.
They are just phones and music players. Is it really that big an issue ?
-- It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -- Aristotle
BS. Apple could label it "PREVENTS HACKERS!" and people would flock to the upgrade.
..even the "hackers"? I think that if you're using a Pre, you're not into the whole reality distortion thing in the first place.
"Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
"d if Palm would grow a few braincells then they would write their own damn software that would read the XML file in the iTunes library"
This what the Pre already does. It is just that Palm decided to let iTunes copy the files over to the device first, instead of reading directly out of iTunes. Why should Apple care were the XML file is read? From a technical perspective it is basically the same. It saves the user from installing additional software. The is one of the nice things about the Pre, no need for any additional desktop software.
Palm could easily inter-operate with iTunes without pretending to be an iPod and abusing Apple's vendor ID. All it has to do is create its own synchronization driver.
"But wait!" the Apple-haters say. "Apple is an evil, anti-competitive wannabe-monopoly! There's no way it would allow such a thing! No way would Apple allow its precious iTunes on other devices! It wants to extend its iTunes dominance to the iPhone by locking out all competitors!"
I give you:
http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/productivity_tools/themissingsyncforpalmpre.html
(Also for BlackBerry.)
All Palm has to do is build (or license) its own connector, and Apple would let it be. Maybe it would even promote the software on Apple's own website.
I'll use it however I like. If I want to use iTunes with a home built Internet Rice Cooker/MP3 Player, I will. Boo fucking hoo for Apple, where do they get off trying to tell me what I will and will not do with my computer, software, and other hardware? You masochistic, submissive Apple fanboys may get off on being dominated by your Apple-daddy but the rest of us don't swing that way.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
When tunes are stored on an ipod they are stored in a way that creates a speedbump to just trasnfering them off. basically the names are munged. Maybe they mess with the id3 tags--don't know. But apple has long been a proponent of speedbump DRM, that is drm that gets in your way enough that most users won't hassle with defeating it.
The real trick that apple accomplished was convincing the music companies that this was sufficient protection.
IN return apple probably has to make a reasonable effort to prevent cases where pod-to-pod transfers all proliferation of music. this would include nominal efforts to never have a legitimate channel for this.
they won't care if it's not perfect. But they probably are obligated to try.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Well, actually, they're telling them that the Pre is a device made by Apple:
http://www.precentral.net/how-palm-re-enabled-itunes-sync
That's a bit shady, and for a group so concerned with open standards like USB, I would imagine more Slashdotters would find that practice questionable.
concrete5: a cms made for marketing, but strong enough for geeks.
It's official - Apple has joined Sony on my list of companies to avoid. Sigh - they used to be sooo cool....
I'd think it would be in Apple's best interest to ignore this in the best way possible. Simply update the terms and conditions of iTunes to state: "Use of non-Apple devices with iTunes are not supported. Contact your hardware manufacturer." And let it go at that.
Apple can (and will) always claim the best experience is with Genuine Apple products. Licensing is key.
Things that are outside the scope of iTunes, such as exporting tracks from the device or other functionality, can be handled via the DMCA or other appropriate legal avenues, and are far easier to defend that a protracted unauthorized use vs. anticompetitive argument that would be expensive for all parties. Providing a licensing option would also make defending against other software applications that mimic iTunes compatibility much easier.
It's important to remember that with proper legal boilerplate, this acts as a secondary drive for iTunes sales, by making access to the library much easier for all parties. A process which is already possible with other media players albeit at more manual effort.
Apple has already scored a significant coup by getting it's proprietary hardware interface adopted by a wide variety of electronics manufacturers, from A/V equipment to auto makers. Licensing of this hardware standard to other devices might also be controlled and profited by Apple.
Essentially establishing iTunes as a de-facto standard for media devices. Embrace, extend, engulf.
This is slashdot.org! The people here love these kinds of hacks. They love giving a finger to the 800 pound gorilla in the market. Palm did one of the most simple things to do, they changed their USB ID. Can they help it if iTunes just goes ahead and copies all the files over to their device?
Plus your macbook probably only allows you to check stock prices on APPL anyway.
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Talk to the hand.
Actually I did. But as they had already done it I thought that maybe when Apple finally slapped them they would let it go and bring out their own sync program. Sprint does have it's own music store. I really don't care how an anonymous coward feels about this anyway.
Why bother
Select unprotected AAC tracks from iTunes, drop onto an SD card, insert SD card into Nintendo DSi.
Nope it doesn't sync automagically but drag'n drop does work from within iTunes.
Jobs: You synced my flagship product!
Kwisatz Haderach
Sell the spice to CHOAM
This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
They could, but that would be really easy to defeat in round N+1 of the cat-and-mouse game.
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
I smell lawsuit. I don't know who would win but both reputations would be fairly tarnished.
Anything can be found funny, from a certain point of view.
Palm is wrong here, Apple is primarily a hardware company and uses iTunes, the App Store and OSX in order to increase their hardware sales. Allowing Palm to hack together support for iTunes in a competing product jeopardizes Apple's business model, they are right to fight back. THEN Palm goes and advertises iTunes support as a key feature of their competing device when it's nothing more than a hack talk about biting that hand that unwillingly feeds you.
Palm could have licensed support for iTunes from Apple and avoided this all together, but this is probably an indicator of where they are as a viable company right now. They have 1 relevant product and are exclusive on a carrier that runs a very distant 3rd as far as subscriber base. WebOS is very nice, but that IP just solidifies them as a prime target for takeover, they will not beat Apple at this game........
K
Somebody mod this up. Palm is in the wrong here, but they're counting on capitalizing on anti-Apple sentiment since a lot of people are justifiably fed up with Apple. But Palm really needs to concentrate on making a better product -- if they want to compete with the iphone they've got to do more than piggy back on its success.
I really wanted to like the Palm Pre. I've still got my Treo, as beat to hell as it is, because I don't like the keyboard-less design of the iphone. (I text a lot and I like the Treo's keypad better than most). I have an ipod touch so I have most of the cool app features of the iphone without the AT+T contract. I went to the Sprint store to check out the Pre and I found it flimsy and slow, and its interface completely counterintuitive compared to the iphone. I was completely disappointed and now I might buy a Centro instead just because it's exactly what I now have except smaller and faster and it comes in green. So, yeah, I might opt for a feature set from like 1997 rather than the latest and greatest -- if that's happening in your product line, there's no way in hell you're gonna compete with the iphone.
I don't understand why its a good thing for one company to release a product that interacts with another company's products without their permission? If I'm a software developer, don't I have to license an SDK or get other permissions from Microsoft or Apple? If I were to create and market a console that runs PS3 games, Sony would have a problem with it. If I'm going to manufacture replacement parts for Honda vehicles, shouldn't I have to check in with Honda and make sure I'm doing it right? If I set up a website that copied Slashdot stories and reader comments and reposted them under a different banner, I'm pretty sure the Linux-powered cyborgs who operate this site would be angry.
Apple's success comes from maintaining the quality and compatibility of its software and hardware. If iTunes eats a Pre owner's media collection because of some incompatibility between iTunes and the PalmOS, who's responsibility is that?
Didn't HP make an Ipod? What vendor did they use?
Plus your macbook probably only allows you to check stock prices on AAPL anyway.
There fixed that for ya
Why bother
I like open standards only because it means that all of my stuff can interconnect. Apple isn't using open standards. Palm is interfacing with a closed standard, thus making more stuff interconnect.
If you look at the tags on this story, someone's calling it the "isyncwar". Just FYI.
Personally I think it'd make a pretty good name but I digress...
Note: I was 13 when I wrote most of this. Take with several grains of salt.
Now, while Apple's use of the USB device id is unfortunate and possibly against the terms (would have to read an agreement I don't think I have access too), but Palm's spoofing of a USB device id is clearly already against the short snippet they quote:
Unauthorized use of assigned or unassigned USB Vendor ID Numbers and associated Product ID Numbers are strictly prohibited.
Whether or not Apple's use may be considered 'unauthorized' may be debatable, but I'm pretty damn sure Palm is not authorized to use Apple's device id. I am very disappointed that Palm would go so far in their ripping off of Apple that they would stoop to this. I'm also disappointed in Apple for their lockout and vote by not using iTunes, ever.
I have a Pre and overall like it, but see way too many places where they ripped off Apple in very specific ways where they could achieve equal functionality by being original. The multitouch zoom and accelerometer orientation that other phone vendors fear to do are rightfully used as pretty obvious things to do, but silly things like the pan to plain background and snap back, and the small slider looking toggle are just blatant copies without significant value. Pre made a very hackable phone with free SDK with a good featureset, and should be commended, but they clearly are coming at this with too much of a cloner attitude in some very specific respects.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
If you have software updates every 5-6 days in the name of "security patches", you probably should hire better developers. I remember some stupid HP updater utility that got tacked on some printer drivers needed an update in the name of security. I decided to one-up the software by removing it entirely, thus preventing any future security issues with that product.
No more shady than reading vendorID and using it to lock out particular products. Can you see how a group so concerned with open standards like USB would find that practice questionable?
Not sure why Palm does not bundle Salling's MediaSync, which allows syncing of multiple smartphones with iTunes (without pretending that the device synced is an iPod).
Maybe they could license a version that only sync the Pre, or pay Salling to create a version that performs fast sync on the Pre but not on other devices (if you download directly from Salling, the free version does basic sync; paying gives you a faster experience).
Michel
Fedora Project Contribut
1. There are defined APIs Apple provides to allow third party software to interact with iTunes, and do everything Palm needs.
2. Palm is better at sync software than Apple *anyway*.
Doing it this way is just begging for a visit from the fuckup fairy. Plus, I want Hotsync back. And a pony.
How did AOL lose the Instant Messaging wars? Everyone I know (in the US) still uses AIM primarily.
Maybe you should keep your Palm stock... this Pre vs iTunes battle is the first news I've heard out of Palm in years.. sounds like they are trying to become a player again.
"Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
But this isn't about "interoperability" no matter how Palm wants to sell it. iTunes has interoperability in it. Palm is choosing not to use it cause they want to be "just like an iPod." There is a difference between interoperability and hardware incompatibility. iTunes manages your music library and manages your hardware. Apple provides access to the libraries openly for any device. Palm is lying to iTunes/Windows/OS X claiming to be an iPod. This could potentially have severe ramifications should Apple push out a firmware to iPods and the command is mis-interpreted by the Pre. Apple is trying to protect themselves and Pre users. Palm is throwing everyone under the bus.
What we don't know:
- What could possibly brick a Pre.
- How many support calls Apple is getting from Pre users.
What we do know:
- Palm was reporting itself as a Palm iPod, now broken
- Palm is reporting itself as an Apple iPod
Palm is violating the USB spec, Trademark law and possibly copyright law. But, lets cheer on Palm.
iTunes is the single most bloated piece of canine feces that exists ... and they dare to call it software.
Clearly you've never used Adobe Reader.
"All it has to do is create its own synchronization driver."
Why? All the driver would do is see the Pre and copy the files over.... kinda like it ALREADY DOES! This is because the "sync driver" is already inside the Pre. The Pre reads the iPod music library files directly. Palm already did the "hard work" of reading well documented files. They just chose to do it in a different place than the rest of the market. Why create a totally new way of storing music files, why you can just copy how someone already did it. The only reason the other devices need a driver is because they don't know how to read the library files directly.
This gives the best experience to the user. No additional software to install.
I would imagine a lot of those same Slashdotters are currently using browsers that spoof the user-agent string to pretend to be other browsers. This sort of thing is not new.
Here's a good question: If Palm were so worried about it.. why use iTunes at all? Just use Windows Media Player or whatever you already use, since if you're a Mac fan you probably have an iPhone/iPod already (assumption). The answer? Most people are drones to popular culture and own iPods, and guess what? That means they use iTunes. Suggesting other iPod-capable software to use for the Pre is redundant.
People already bitch about having so many applications that they have to use to sync multiple devices. I for one, think this is a great idea and Palm should keep it up. We don't need any more trash software installed.
Where do we go from here?
You appear to be making the unwarranted assumption that all of the tracks stored in iTunes will fit on a Pre, and/or the user wants all the tracks transferred.
The advantage of having iTunes do the syncing is that the user can select exactly which subset of tracks (via playlists) are sync'd with the device, and those playlists are in common with other devices which are sync'd. There are also advantages (assuming the Pre supports these features) of having the device up the play count, last played date, and other dynamic data, so it gets sync'd back into iTunes.
Yes, Palm could conceivably read the full iTunes XML, allow the user to create playlists, and sync from there, but that would involve more work for the user, instead of allowing them to easily sync already created playlists.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
The only Open standard Apple isn't using is mounting the iPod/iPhone as a HD. iTunes is not just a file sync to iPods taht won't play nice. It handles firmware and software updates that Palm can't/won't be privy to. By breaking the USB vendor ID Palm is risking the bricking of Pres whenever Apple tries to do more than just a file sync. This is bad for Everyone. USB is a standard. Apples uses the standard, correctly, in order to connect to a closed system, iTunes. That is perfectly within the spec. What you are claiming is I should be able to use Blackberry sync software with my iPhone if I choose.
Hah, you know I started to type it that way and thought "That looks stupid, there's no way that's the ticker."
Apparently APPL was taken.
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Well, actually, they're telling them that the Pre is a device made by Apple:
http://www.precentral.net/how-palm-re-enabled-itunes-sync
That's a bit shady,
No, it really isn't.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Yeah but they way the stock is going I needed the stop loss.
Why bother
And it turns out that it will cost me more to sell it than the amount I have is worth so I lose less if I hold it.
Why bother
By breaking the USB vendor ID Palm is risking the bricking of Pres whenever Apple tries to do more than just a file sync.
Just how, do you imagine, would iTunes engage the Pre's firmware update system?
The Pre does NOT manage its firmware through iTunes. There is ZERO risk to a Pre's firmware from interfacing with the iTunes application.
I said:
Apple isn't using open standards.
That's slightly inaccurate since Apple does use many open standards. Of course, I was talking specifically about syncing.
You said:
The only Open standard Apple isn't using is mounting the iPod/iPhone as a HD.
This is equally inaccurate, because anyone could come up with a dozen open standards that Apple doesn't implement. But again, we're talking about syncing.
Apple has a standard protocol for syncing. It's not open. It uses tricks like the device ID and now the vendor ID to avoid talking to non-Apple devices. You can argue the merits of it all you like (your examples of potential bricks are reasonable, but it's quite possible to protect against this with proper engineering.) However, I still hold that if Palm can correctly talk Apple's closed protocol (through the reverse engineering that they surely did), more power to them. They know what they're doing, and I'm pretty sure that we're not going to see any bricks coming from this.
If they screw up...well frankly, that will be one massive class action lawsuit. They've got a really good incentive to get it right.
Then they'll start using USB Vendor ID's. That would take more than just a software update, wouldn't it?
this is slashdot, where everyone uses linux, IRC, and bash to manage your ogg collection.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
If it wasn't for all the profanity, I'd swear you were a bot. You've posted this "sync from the XML" comment no less than 5 times in the past month.
...seriously? The DMCA explains clearly what is and is not legal, and inventing a number that happens to coincide with an Apple serial number is certainly not.
More on point.. I get the feeling you're neither a software engineer nor an attorney.
I mean, "mucking around with serial numbers"
And Palm can free themselves from tortious issues simply by ensuring a "cleanroom" reverse-engineer.
I really am dying to know... why so petty about this?
Do you have any examples of a large and successful company wasting resources on development, by developing an exact clone of another company's product, rather than spending practically nothing to write a simple work-around?
Windows
How is Palm not trying to force Apple into making iTunes SO restrictive about syncing that Palm can sue Apple for anti-competitive behavior, eventually forcing iTunes to be actively open.
I say that Palm is doing the exact opposite of trying to avoid a lawsuit, but their intention is to be on the 'right' end of it. It's brilliant if it works.
"It's not done 'till Palm won't run!"
I'd like to see Apple release a firmware update for the iPod the Pre says it is.
Pre: "Hey iTunes. I'm an iPod, what music have you got for me"
iTunes: "Shiny new Firmware!"
Pre: "Um, ok not really"
iTunes: "You said you were an iPod you're going to take this".
Internet Explorer still says it's Mozilla out of the box.
This whole thing is ridiculous. Palm should have just approached Apple and asked them if they could sync with iTunes in the first place, then Apple should have let them. If Apple was smart, they would realize that the iPhone is not the only game in town, and allow other players to work with iTunes like they used to. If some poor schlub can't afford an iPhone or iPod, but wants to spend money buying music through iTunes, Apple should be happy to have another revenue stream.
Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
I'm kinda looking forward to the firmware update the gets installed on all iPods.. and bricks devices that say they are ipods, and get their firmware overwritten.. Don't put it past apple.. "Sorry, we checked the ID and assumed it was one of our devices.. oops"
What are we going to do tonight Brain?
Perhaps you have insight I do not. Does the iPod check with iTunes for a firmware upgrade or does iTunes check the iPod? See the difference. The Pre says it's an iPod, iTunes says, hey I have a firmware upgrade for you.
Additionally, WebOS is basically WebKit plus some custom javascript objects. Most of Pre was built and designed by current and former Apple employees.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
I would argue that vendor ID and device ID aren't tricks. It's how you determine what proprietary devices and use what proprietary software. USB is a communication standard, not an interoperability standard. My USB printer driver doesn't work with my USB flash drive.
Palm tried to take a nibble from apple, and apple politely shoo'ed them away. Next time, apple will not be so kind. There will be some seriously pissed Pre owners with f'ed up handsets looking for answers.
Palm's low-class moves will cost them dearly.
sigs are for losers (except to point out that sigs are for losers)
So, did you go Office Space on the printer or what. Throwing away a printer because the driver needs a security update one time seems a little crazy.
I agree. It is not annoying if updates were 5MB; but at 70+MB, it sure is annoying.
Let me get this straight: you want to achieve universal device interoperability by having all mobiles use iTunes for syncing?
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
I'm selling off my Palm stock. First Palm doesn't bother to do their own engineering and decides it's OK to be a parasite on other people's work. Then when those people fix it so that Palm isn't able to steal their work, Palm fixes it so that they masquerade and someone else's product. Then files a complaint that Apple is abusing the USB Vendor ID code to affect interoperability even though there are far better ways to do what they are doing even using iTunes to buy music. And then it turns out that they actually are violating the USB Vendor ID code themselves by not reporting themselves as the vendor of their own product. These guys are pathetic, they should just bite the bullet and license iTunes connectivity, like Apple did for Exchange.
Call me naive, but where does it say for iTunes that it will only sell music/sync to iPod/iPhone owners? Also, if Palm is correct about the improper usage of the Vendor ID, why do you think it is acceptable for Apple to abuse the standard? I guess in your eyes (fanboi?) it's ok for Apple to discriminate against consumers, and the last I checked that is illegal. To me the next logical step is something along the lines of:
"Apple has developed a rigorous algorithm to determine the color of skin of it's userbase by their iTunes library. Using this new technology Apple has determined you are: Black. As such, we do apologize for the inconvenience but you are no longer allowed to purchase downloads or sync to your music device."
"Be prepared, son. That's my motto. Be prepared." --Joe Hallenbeck
Because Slashdotters HATE circumvention and probably pray daily for the DRM utopia the Spaghetti-lord has promised them. Perhaps you could direct me to this Slashdot so I can also voice my own concern?
Quack, quack.
So if Palm used GPLed software without providing the source to make more stuff interconnect, would you cheer?
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
"instead of reading directly out of iTunes"
The music files in question are all stored, unencrypted on the file system referenced in the XML file. If you are already parsing the file and already have a means for copying files back and forth to the device (which the Pre does) why would you use iTunes in the first place? In addition the XML file is again, just a flat file which is unencrypted on the FS. There's absolutely no need to go through iTunes for this unless you were feeling either Lazy, Too Smart for your own good, or looking to pick a fight with Apple.
--- I do not moderate.
That's not really a comparable issue.
This isn't about file storage.
This is the second time in this thread you have misrepresented what is happening. Why don't you learn about it some before spouting off again; damn late ass comers to slashdot.
--- I do not moderate.
Palm made me smile by waving their middle finger shaped update at Apple. Therefore I will buy a Palm. If only so I can laugh at the over zealous apple fanbois and say "Hey! I can use iTunes cause Apple can't lock me out!" And them watch them splutter in rage and spit out (admittedly likely true) excuses.
Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
I mean, "mucking around with serial numbers" ...seriously? The DMCA explains clearly what is and is not legal, and inventing a number that happens to coincide with an Apple serial number is certainly not.
I don't think the DMCA comes anywhere into it. Music with iTunes DRM doesn't play on the Pre (Ok, that is just my assumption. If it does, then they _would_ be in trouble). I don't think incompatibility is "technical measure to prevent access" in the sense of the DMCA, just like software that allows you to record your old vinyl records onto your computer is not in violation of the DMCA.
On the other hand... If iTunes gives the registration number to Apple's servers, and Apple notices ten thousand iPods with the same serial number, then clearly 9,999 of them must be stolen. Imagine having the police on your doorstep looking for a stolen iPod!
Theres only so much though that Apple can do short of killing compatibility with older iPods.
False, I believe.
Every real iPod can receive a firmware update from iTunes. That's how AAC and DRM support were added to the iPods that were sold before the iTunes music store existed! If things got really crazy... I wouldn't put it past Apple to make the installation of a firmware upgrade a part of the sync process. And if Palm tried to spoof that, I think they'd end up in more legal trouble than they bargained for.
RIM is doing this the right way, as are any number of other vendors. Palm is just... they're either being very stupid or very smart, and at this time I do not have a reason to bet on "very smart".
Wrong genius But I do have almost a whole share.
Why bother
Actually if you read the application for a Vendor ID Palm is the one who is using the Apple Vendor ID without authorization and Apple is using it in a perfectly reasonable way. incidentally there is nothing stopping you from buying tunes with iTunes, but there is no reason that Apple should be forced to enhance a direct competitors product by allowing you to Manage the music on a device that was not manufactured by or for Apple.
Why bother
Oh my gawd I have to read these things more carefully. You have got to be kidding me "discriminate against customers" of another product. Do you actually even live in this universe, what color is the sky where you are.
Why bother
As held in every case about this issue, copyright and trademark law are not violated when using a competitors name for the purposes of interoperability.
Yeah, Apple's good at that (see the "giving the aliens a virus" scene in Independence Day).
Haida Manga
I kept the printer. I just got rid of the annoying software around it. Kept the driver. It was just an updater program.
So it tries to push a firmware update, and webOS just ignores it - maybe even returning a "I'm finished!" to iTunes. What, you thought Palm would just let anything run the firmware update process?
It's really stupid of Apple to try and block the Pre from the iTMS eco-system. Apple sells non-DRM music through that store and makes a little bit (most goes to the record companies, but Apple still makes something and enhances their standing as the world's biggest digital music store) music through iTMS that can be played on the Pre - so why throw out this market and hope that you can force them into an iPod only to make more money now? Be nice and they might buy an iPod later because of a good experience with iTunes.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Why as a consumer would I be so dumb as to buy anything Apple if they're only goal is to extract as much money from me as possible by forcing me to use only their products?
From here (for MacOS):
iPod Nomad II
Nomad II MG
Nomad II c
Nomad Jukebox
Nomad Jukebox 20GB
Nomad Jukebox C
Novad MuVo
Rio One
Rio 500
Rio 600
Rio 800
Rio 900
Rio S10
Rio S11
Rio S30S
Rio S35S
Rio S50
Rio Chiba
Rio Fuse
Rio Cali
psa]play 60
psa]play 120
SoundSpace 2
How does iTunes decide if someone's got that firmware upgrade already then?
You can't go updating the firmware on a real iPod every time you sync. There's gotta be a way to say "i already have it"
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
No, it says it's Mozilla-compatible. Stated in another way, it says it's compatible with Mozilla.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
Just because you don't like the answer.
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
Yes, and assuming Palm knows this and coded it in, what happens if it changes. What if there becomes a technical reason for Apple to change this process and it bricks a Pre?
No, It's not just Palm's problem. Apple has a reputation for seem less technology that just works. Right or wrong iTunes is an Apple product and it's operation with the Pre will effect Apple's image with the general public.
no, it is not shady, the Pre is simply telling iTunes that it is compatible with it
I'm always fascinated by these mischievous tech battles - the higher profile and more legitimate the companies involved, the better. Examples:
OK, so the Pre pretending it's an iPod to iTunes is no double diffuser, but it's kind of a cheat, and so is Apple's fix by abusing the USB standard. Palm had it all planned out - they're trying to force Apple into some kind of consumer backlash which makes Apple look bad and Palm look like consumer-rights crusaders, and an antitrust lawsuit.
All that said, I do think Apple deserves a bit of this. They claimed that they were making iTunes DRM-free to give consumers the freedom to choose the device they want, but here they're deliberately, and unashamedly, blocking a device from syncing with iTunes.
Then they'll start using USB Vendor ID's. That would take more than just a software update, wouldn't it?
No. The USB protocol is mostly not implemented in the hardware on the Linux-running Palm Pre. It is handled by kernel drivers.
Brian Fundakowski Feldman
Firmware updates occur through manual intervention of the user....
Brian Fundakowski Feldman
There is no "protocol" here. iPods are "USB mass storage devices" with FAT or HFS+ filesystems on them, and that is how iTunes operates them.
Brian Fundakowski Feldman
Microsoft did exactly this when they created iPOD support for the XBOX 360. Apple never gave them the permission or ability to do it, but they reverse engineered the way music is stored on the iPOD and such. It was actually something they were advertising when the 360 came out -- iPOD support.
Of course, M$ is too easy to ridicule.
So does Chrome. But they mean Netscape, which was the original Mozilla. (I remember downloading an early Netscape beta - pre 1.0 - and the readme ended with the line "Yes, this is Mozilla.")
It's not risking anything. If they're intelligent enough to write cell phone software, music software, what makes you think they're somehow not intelligent enough to ignore firmware updates, and even just report success when requested. Faking a USB VID does not somehow force the Pre to accept anything and everything the host throws at it. This is just FUD.
Pre: Okay to receive firmware update. Initiate.
iTunes:Sending
Pre: *captures firmware version number, spools update to /dev/nul
iTunes: Excellent, what version are you now?
Pre: Uhh, Version x.y.z
This is also completely an aside from the fact that the DMCA specifically permits such behavior for the purposes of interoperability, and a textbook definition of that word would be "to allow a Pre user to use their iTunes music library natively on a Pre.
You haven't seen the new & improved iTunes firmware flasher... /evil laugh
"I like systems, their application excepted", George Sand (French)
It's pretty much the same thing as the DRMed CDs claiming they are regular CD-Audio by putting the logo on the package.
Palm is in contravention of the USB specifications, yet I bet there's a USB logo on their packaging, and "USB" in the manual.
It's pretty much the same thing as the DRMed CDs claiming they are regular CD-Audio by putting the logo on the package.
False. DRMed CDs are deliberately designed not to work. Palm is doing their best to make the Pre work.
Palm is in contravention of the USB specifications, yet I bet there's a USB logo on their packaging, and "USB" in the manual.
If there were another way to do it, I'm sure they'd do it. But the alternative is janky.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
DRMed CDs are not in compliance with the CDAudio specification, therefore they should not be eligible to display that logo. If someone powerful enough were to push the issue with the licensor of the logo, those CDs would not be allowed to display it.
The Pre is using a USB manufacturer ID that doesn't belong to Palm, in clear and specific violation of the USB Forum's requirements. That makes the Pre ineligible to display the USB logo and to say it is USB compatible. If someone powerful enough were to push the issue with the licensor of the logo (the USB Forum) then the Pre would no longer be allowed to display it.
Despite your value judgements and assertion that the ends justify the means, the two situations are equivalent.
Despite your value judgements and assertion that the ends justify the means, the two situations are equivalent.
I'm not necessarily saying that the ends justify the means, but I am definitely saying that intent is highly relevant, and thus the situations might be similar, but they are certainly not equivalent.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
So it tries to push a firmware update, and webOS just ignores it - maybe even returning a "I'm finished!" to iTunes.
And then iTunes detects the liar using this rule: All communication after a firmware update is supposed to use the protocol of the new firmware, not the protocol of the old firmware.
Aside from the music syncing issue, has anyone actually used a Pre? I deeply resisted an iPhone for mostly emotional reasons, the on-screen keyboard, and fear of the AT&T network, for a long time but finally broke down three months ago when my Motorola Q became too frustrating to use and my wife also needed a new, non-work related phone.
I had my iPhone 3G for about 2 months when the Pre came out and I must say I wasn't totally impressed. The screen seemed smaller and navigation less intuitive than the iPhone. The other thing that got me was not being able to connect the mail app to Exchange with a self-signed cert (or no cert).
I was a little hesitant when I first handled it, thinking I might have iPhone remorse, but I found the Pre to be far from an iPhone killer.
Great. Yes, that covers the most simplistic, most trivial way Apple could do this. So if Apple does this in a brainless manner, and doesn't study anything anyone else has done, Palm has an easy ride ahead.
Now let me ask you, what do you know about XBox 360 hard drives?
You can't stick any old hard drive in there without hacking the device firmware. The "legit" hard drives all have a particular image file stored on them. The system won't recognize it as a drive without that file. And that file is copyrighted. So to put your own hard drive into an XB360, you have to either mod the firmware to recognize a drive without that image, or violate copyright and copy that image.
This has been sufficient to block widespread/mainstream installing of custom hard drives into XB360. Their technology detects the modded systems, and bans them from the network. Yeah, it's legal to go ahead and mod a system so it doesn't require that image, but the result is one that violates your XBLA agreements, and gets banned from the network. And as for installing the image on a non-approved hard drive, so you can use it with a non-modified XB360, the legal system seems to be sufficient to stop that.
Why is something along these lines not sufficient for this purpose? Just put a firmware update on every iPod that has it create a particular copyrighted data file in a particular location if that file is missing, and have iTunes look for that file. For Palm to overcome this, they have to either mod iTunes not to look for that file, or violate copyright by copying that file.
But I'm not sure it'll be necessary. Palm is violating their own agreements with the USB standards body by doing what their doing. I'm not sure how long this will last.
It's all stupid anyway. All they have to do is what everyone else is doing (RIM, doubleTwist, et cetera) and they would have syncing without getting into any pissing matches.
Actually if you read the application for a Vendor ID Palm is the one who is using the Apple Vendor ID without authorization and Apple is using it in a perfectly reasonable way. incidentally there is nothing stopping you from buying tunes with iTunes, but there is no reason that Apple should be forced to enhance a direct competitors product by allowing you to Manage the music on a device that was not manufactured by or for Apple.
Admittedly I know very little of Apple products as I have no use for them. However, I find it suspicious that iTunes only offers support for iPods/iPhones. In fact, I actually won't believe that until someone links to the apple.com page that says specifically you can only use iTunes with Apple mp3 players.
"Be prepared, son. That's my motto. Be prepared." --Joe Hallenbeck
Oh my gawd I have to read these things more carefully. You have got to be kidding me "discriminate against customers" of another product. Do you actually even live in this universe, what color is the sky where you are.
Actually what I said was discriminate against consumers, but whatever. I guess your vote has been cast for the "White's Only" drinking fountain.
"Be prepared, son. That's my motto. Be prepared." --Joe Hallenbeck
Additionally, WebOS is basically WebKit plus some custom javascript objects. Most of Pre was built and designed by current and former Apple employees.
Well, since most of Webkit was built and designed by open source developers back when it was KHTML...
Palm aren't violating Apple's copyright.
Nobody said they did, you stupid fucking hateboy. I hope your reading comprehension improves once you reach 5th grade.
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck