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Defense Department Eyes Hacker Con For New Recruits
alphadogg writes "The US Air Force has found an unlikely source of new recruits: the yearly Defcon hacking conference, which has been running since Thursday in Las Vegas. Col. Michael Convertino came to Defcon for the first time last year, and after finding about 60 good candidates for both enlisted and civilian positions, decided to come back again. Federal agencies have only recently begun embracing the hacker crowd. When US Department of Defense director of futures exploration Jim Christy hosted his first Defcon 'Meet the Fed' panel in 1999, he was one of two people onstage. At this week's Defcon, there may be several thousand federal employees in attendance, he said."
Seriously, these events attract at lot of smart, independent thinking people who love technology. What better place to recruit people? If it works at Universities, then it probably works better at DefCon.
I guess they were worried about the "independent thinking" before...
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Have you seen most of the people who attend these conferences?
Most of them can't do a single push-up, and you expect them to work in the military?
Next year at Blackhat:
- Moxie Marlinspike demonstrates how to pwn an F22-Raptor has it passes your datacenter
- K Chen describes how an attacker can install malicious code into the firmware of the steering console in a M1A2
- Joshua Abraham demonstrates several flaws in secret identities used by CIA agents
- Marc Bevand disarms Russian missiles with an ATI Graphics card
- Joe Grand now gets free parking in a Black Hawk
An American bomb falls on a wedding in the Swat Valley and creates 50 new terrorist recruits.
An American soldier kills three people in a private home in Iraq. The youngest son witnesses the carnage and becomes a life-long anti-American soldier.
A young girl witnesses her mother ripped to shreds by a missile fired by an unmanned American drone.
The War Against Terrorism (TWAT) is a fight against innocents. To claim any less is simply a rationalization of the pani inflicted upon those who have nothing to do with with true terrorism. And what's worse: Each attack leads to the creation of new terrorists.
Maybe the US government can hire script kiddies to wage war against "terrorists", but true hackers should fight the government. It is our enemy. It is the enemy of every life-loving person in the world.
This being slashdot i think along the lines of:
Chicks dig the airforce boys and! we got dark basements you can work in.
I guess in the next year or two, it will be "spot the non-fed."
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I'm sure more than a few of us have the skill set and maturity level they are looking for.
On the other hand, more than a few of us may not have the patience for office- and real-world politics that they require.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Somebody mod the parent up.
He's wrong, but he has a good point.
Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite (TM)
Most of them will not be able to pass Boot camp and I am talking about non push-up part of it just trying putting a DI in there face and see how much back talk you get from them and if they mess up and cost the platoon someting or more PT then they can get there ass kicked by the platoon.
boot camp by give some of them a psychological brake down.
While perhaps not the most disciplined troops in the group, Americans who hvae passed through the educational system and who have access to a television are well-versed in patriotism.
What the military doesn't need is free-thinkers. Hackers, by virtue of their status as hackers, are not necessarily free-thinkers. If they've passed through the American educational system, they've already been trained as much as the military needs. The American public school system is designed to train patriots. I wouldn't worry that these "hackers" are incompletely trained.
Pretty much every Al queda leader has come from a country weve never attacked, many of the countries are in fact our "allies"
The leaders of Al queda come from Saudi Arabia and Egypt, its not our wars that create our enemies its our support for repressive regimes.
In Vietnam a country where we waged a 15 year war, they welcome american tourists and even former american GI's. We dropped atomic
bombs on Japan and now we are their strongest ally.
The problems in Afghanistan have been there before the US arrived (for 30 years) and will be there after the US leaves
I drove all the way down to Vegas from SF Thursday, and by Friday evening I was ready to get out of there. I went to a few panels and was thoroughly underwhelmed. It was crowded, not exciting. Several people walked out of talks. I overheard some other people say "maybe tomorrow will be better". Well, I don't know because I sold my badge and bailed early.
Not to say that there couldn't have been some good smart people to hire there. But after the level of disappointingness Defcon had to offer, I'm no longer impressed. The atmosphere definitely did not inspire me to want to hire anybody.
Long live the BSD license
...background and psych testing on their new contractors. "Independent minded hackers" are just the sort that would blackmail, leak, sabotage or otherwise betray the military's efforts in a second if they ever felt dissed, slighted or P.O.'d for whatever reason. That's the nature of the beast. You'd only need one guy who felt slighted or got yelled at by some uptight Air Force colonel and the next thing you know the US missile defense satellites all go dark until the brass apologizes.
"If you want to know what happens to you when you die, go look at some dead stuff."
If you can't beat them, hire them.
Now what sort of hacker is going to enlist in the military? First of all he will make 1/10 th of what he can just using his existing skills. Second
of all he would likely be enlisted man and even if he was a officer he would have to put up with the incredible amount of crap that
comes with military service.
Then you have the same sort of issue with civilian govt service, who wants to put up with it. Half of these guys have no degree so the pay
scale does not benefit them either. On top of this it likely requires a TS clearance and how many of these people could actually obtain
the required clearance.
Got Code?
You seriously need to breathe some fresh air into your view of the military.
The picture you have in your head of basic training was out of date when I went - and that was over 30 years ago.
The Air Farce has no DI's.
What boot camp does is teach people how to operate within a large hierarchical system.
It also puts a person through a mild physical fitness regimen.
I benefited greatly from basic training, though I wouldn't realize it for years.
A lot of the stuff seems silly at the time, like being inspected for one's ability to fold one's clothes exactly as instructed.
The actual lesson being taught by that exercise is that breaking a routine function down to basics, and standardizing it, has value in a complex system.
Hackers recruited for the military will still go through basic -they have to in order to speak the same language and fit in at all.
We had plenty of out of shape people who still managed to pass.
Security is very discouraging. I was in the field a long time ago and got fed up. It's just hopeless. The same problems come up over and over.
That's just part of the list. I don't see a determined effort to fix the underlying problems. Given that, it's hopeless.
The Air Force is a fucking joke, and in no way represents the real military. They have TWO occupational specialties that could be considered honest-to-goodness combat arms (PJs and combat controllers) and the rest are civilians wearing a blue uniform.
No silly at all if you've ever called in a fire mission and realized that transposing one digit even under extreme stress is going to end with the wrong people dying. Attention to detail is *always* key in the military.
Yes, something to brag about. What makes me laugh about this is that your average wing nut can't run 2-4 miles, yet now they've thrown in additional training with the M-16 in the event they're called upon to protect their own ground assets (supply convoys, bases, etc). That's a sure recipe for getting you and your buddies dead in a hurry.
I think the military would get along with hackers as well as suits in the corporate world have in the past, unless they do something radical like offer unlimited Doritos, caffeine, a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Folder, and someone to pick up the pizza boxes.
"The only legitimate use of a computer is to play games." - Eugene Jarvis
I held in and was probably the one you heard, "maybe tomorrow will be better." Nope.
The words "sell out" came to mind. Remember the early burning-man days? Defcon was once a group that met for a "love of the craft" that has become a certification desktoper recruitment fest.
Sad really, maybe time to let this one go the way of E3 no?
Dudes and Dudetts: This is late, late, late! Years late. a Decade Late! Each year at DEFCON there is a "Find the Fed" contest where the identified federal agents and the spotter each get a T-Shirt. Feds from many nations are there in all forms and shapes. One "news" reporter was found out to be from the French Foreign Legion one year. This may be the first time they admitted it publicly, but each year they came knowing that DEFCON vulnerabilities would be about three (3) years ahead of when they appear in the trade press. (The Foreign Legion guy got his T-Shirt.)
Now what sort of hacker is going to enlist in the military?
An unemployed one. At least the U.S. military is hiring.
Of course, even if you go in for a technical job, you may be deployed to Iraq, wiring up CAT-5 cable and Cisco routers while dodging IEDs on your way to work.
Much military work today is about systems for sorting out who's enemy and who isn't. The days when everybody in front of you is enemy are over. (In recent decades, enemies who've tried stand-up battles against US troops were defeated within days.)
Speaking from experience its amazing what sort of bodily transformation can happen in 2 short months. But they do have some standards for letting people in. They let people that are over the weight/body fat percentage in, because boot camp will reduce that drasticly, but there is a limit to how fat you can be before they take a chance. And if you havent made it by the 8th week, you are recycled back a few weeks. The physical part is much easier to build up. Go see any graduating class at boot camp and compare that to what they looked like 8 weeks before. And be especially amazed by Marine transformations, they go through 12 weeks of hell instead of 8 weeks of tough shit.
If BMT made that much of a difference in your life, you were a pussy to begin with. Seriously.
1.5 mile run: 11:57 (an 8 minute mile? really?)
45 pushups (I've seen guys with manboobs do better)
50 situps (a joke.. and the military still hasn't gotten the memo that situps != abs)
Air Force BMT is not tough... not even close. It's summer camp.
boot camp by give some of them a psychological brake down.
As is apparent by the effect it has had on your grammar and spelling. Thank you, sir, for your service.
Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure everything I just said is completely wrong.
you're faced with an abusive psychopath
have you ever went through boot camp? I've been through it and Advanced Individual Training for the infantry. I did not face any abusive psychopaths while in training for either one. The only tyme I had trouble was in Germany, where they make up their own rules.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Strict discipline is needed in some parts of the military because if you hesitate when following an order, it can cost lives. This isn't the case for a lot of support services. Hackers recruited by this kind of process are going to be doing things like penetration testing on the DoD networks, designing ways of compromising enemy systems without detection, and so on. This kind of thing doesn't have anything like the same requirements as a front-line soldier.
Yes discipline is needed but that does not mean free thinkers aren't. Someone above made the remark that free thinkers and the creative are valuable and are the ones that promotions in combat while those who strictly follow orders are the ones getting promotions in peacetime. After having served in the military in general I'd have to agree. While in I had one Commanding Officer, CO, who asked me if I wanted to go to this school or that school. I figured he did because I kept on asking questions. Another CO I had though didn't like me asking all the questions.
And as for "front-line" combat, as has been shown in Iraq, there's more than one type of combat. There, they've had to deal with desert and urban combat in summer as well as winter. In Alaska at Fort Greeley there was the Northern Warfare Training Center that taught two classes, summer school and winter school. Before the US left there was a Jungle Warfare Training Center at Fort Sherman, Panama.
Falcon
Oh, in case you're wondering, in the army I was in the infantry and would have been on the front lines if sent to combat. And I enlisted in the Army to save money to go to college where I wanted to major in Computer Engineering. I could have picked another MOS or Military Occupation Speciality such as electronics which would have been a closer field to my major but I liked shooting and the martial arts and wanted to learn to fight. Actually I almost went into the Navy where I would have went into Advanced Electronics, however I had already decided I would only go in for 4 years however to go into Advanced Electronics the Navy required people to enlist for 6 years.
Should there be a Law?
I was one of those hippies when I enlisted in the Army. The hardest thing about going in was having my shoulder length hair cut. But I had specific goals and enlisting would allow me to meet those goals. So I was willing to set aside some things to meet my goals.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
I fear it but I still speak out about it. Actually I speak out because I fear it.
I know that's backwards, people shouldn't fear government, government should fear the people. However the past couple of centuries have shown government should be feared.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Actually the US waged war with Viet Nam more than 20 years. President Eisenhower, the same one that warned against the military-industrial complex, sent Colonel Edward Lansdale to Indo-china in 1953. France and the Democratic Republic of Vietnam agreed to the Geneva Accords in 1954 wherein the people of Viet Nam, both north and south, would vote on whether to reunite. However Ngo Dinh Diem who won in rigged elections as South Vietnam's first president and Eisenhower opposed the voting. So Lansdale who was Diem's adviser and friend armed and trained supporters of him starting in 1955 to oppose it.
The problems in Afghanistan have been there before the US arrived (for 30 years) and will be there after the US leaves
Except the US supported the Mujahideen with arms and training after the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan. The US then made the mistake of pulling out after the Soviets left. Once the US did the Mujahideen which was made up of different ethnic, religious, and tribal groups, fractured. Some groups joined to become the United Islamic Front for the Salvation of Afghanistan or Northern Alliance and others became the Taliban. These groups then started fighting each other for power.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Same here. And despite the bad rep public education has how good or bad a school is is partially due to the school administration and teachers. That's one reason I support charter schools, magnet schools, and school choice. Schools should compeat against each other. The one thing I do not support is taxpayer funded Christian theology unless is part of an understanding religion curriculum with other religions being taught the same way.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
What a joke! The Om-Impotent TSA goon-squads and their Goon-Administration Homeland Security were punked at LaGuardia.
The DoD should hire this guy .. quick!
Cum Monday, we'll see the specticle of HSA Sec filp up her skirt and masterbate with a big dildo -- with the US Flag (Fag).
TSA is the biggest joke of the 21st century --- what faggot loosers!
Arrest them all ... crate them up is cattle cars ... send them off to Afghanistan ... new meat for the grinder!
Their splattered gutts will be a red carpet for Obama -- Obama's Beautiful America -- in Afghanistan.
No, I am talking about Muslims in general. It's pretty hard to tell the difference between "normal" Muslims and "fanatical" ones.
those fanatic Muslims are that very exception I was talking of, and my point was that they are only minority.
They're not a minority.
Except they are a minority. Ask most Iranians if they want to wipe Israel off the map and most say no. In "Commentary" magazine Ze'ev Maghen wrote the article "Eradicating the 'Little Satan'". He says "It is not their genuine, vehement hatred that we have to fear; it is their endless, drone-like training" Iranians hear and see in the media as well as at mosques and on the streets. He further argues that because Iranians don't "mean it" they are actually more dangerous. He compares what's happening today in Iran to what happened in NAZI Germany. Most Germans didn't hate Jews but the repetitive drumming of antisemitism, which isn't really antisemitism, dehumanized Jews.
Falcon
Oh, people may question my remark about how I say what's perceived as antisemitism really isn't. Broken down antisemitism is "anti", against and "Semite", "a member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Middle East and northern Africa". Both Hebrews and Arabs are Semites however many Anti-Semitics are against Jews or Hebrews but not Arabs. Also not all Arabs are Muslims, there are some Christians and Jewish Arabs too. There are also Jews for Allah.
Should there be a Law?
And, oddly enough, none of the leadership are willing to strap explosives to themselves and die for their cause. Strange how that works out.
Except those who started and led Al-Qaeda went to Afghanistan to fight against the Soviet Union. Osama bin Laden started by fighting the Soviets. Like politicians there are some who are willing to fight while others are chicken hawks.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
That can pretty much be applied to followers of almost all religions. Here in the US we have a number of Christian Talibans, Reconstructionists, and those who believe in Manifest Destiny who like some Muslims believe in stoning.
Falcom
Should there be a Law?
but many times the junior ranks are beaten with the "conform stick"
Maybe it has changed, but IIRC they don't actually beat you with a stick. Rather, you paint rocks; lots and lots of rocks; rocks that already have lots and lots of layers of paint on them...
Oh, and as you get promoted anyway 'cuz of actual job performance, qualification tests and so forth, you find that you are the one who is always scheduled to cover Xmas, and Thanksgiving, and six straight months of 12-hour night shifts, and...
Hey, wait...is the "conform stick" a euphemism?
Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
You know most of the real geeks could not get into the armed forces because of their lack of physical stamina, so they end up on the side lines, someone finally woke up and say, hey hackers don't need to run 5 miles everyday....!
I think it is great for the public sector to finally get a hand in what security (gov. security) is all about.
You have much better chance getting scure with people who are used to eluding the keystone capers.
". The fundamental problem is that the C and C++ concept of arrays is broken. The language has no idea how big an array is" - by Animats (122034) on Sunday August 02, @12:38PM (#28917823) Homepage
That's NOT quite true: You can do some "independent thinking", & figure out the length of ANY array, w/out knowing the total # of elements, like so:
HOW TO DETERMINE ARRAY SIZE/LENGTH, USING TWO POINTERS (1 is always DOUBLE the size of the other, 1st "++" vectors thru array, other is always double its size):
----
1.) Make 2 pointers, starting @ the "Zeroeth array element" position (the start, in other words)
2.) Advance 1 by 1 & then, double the size of the 2nd pointer
3.) Then, advance the first one to 2, double the size of the 2nd pointer
4.) Continue this, always advancing the first pointer ++ by 1, until the 2nd pointer can no longer advance... THIS YIELDS THE ARRAY's MIDPOINT!
5.) Simply doubling the midpoint will yield the total # of array elements, & thus, its size...
----
THAT'S HOW YOU CAN DETERMINE THE SIZE OF ANY ARRAY (or string) AND ITS LENGTH... & w/out using functions like StrLen (strings.h), for string lengths in NULL strings or otherwise (strings are, after all, nothing more than "Character Arrays" anyhow)...
APK
P.S.+> I see a lot of TALK here about "independent thinkers", only trouble is? I don't SEE too much of it here... mostly "regurgitations" of already known information which is what I see mostly "network techs/network administrators" are @ best/most, capable of... &, because of it? I'm not very impressed... apk
Yet you provide no evidence to back up your claim, you are wrong.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?