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What's In an Educational Game?

An anonymous reader writes "I work at a non-profit whose mandate is to increase science literacy and awareness. One of the methods that we've started exploring is in making free, online educational games. Our target demographic for the games is kids aged 8-12, but there is no reason the games could not also appeal to a broader age range. What would you look for in an educational game? Does length and depth of gameplay matter to you, or would you rather play a trivial game with subconscious educational value?"

160 comments

  1. None of the above. by snarfies · · Score: 1

    I'm looking to have fun in a way that is utterly disconnected from the real world. Civ4 is about as "educational" as I'd be willing to mess with. It gives you the history behind the units and buildings in the civilopedia, but that history is 100% optional to look at. If the game stopped me with a message like "Did you know that ancient bronze-age spears can take down a B-17 bomber if they're thrown real hard?" it would come across as obtrusive and/or preachy.

    1. Re:None of the above. by FinchWorld · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Its possible to have fun, and be educational whilst disconnected from the real world. I give you Droid Works http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Droid_Works. I bought this game years ago, didn't even know it was educational, I just saw making your own droids and decided I must have it. I enjoyed the game too, its only recently when I found the box buried away somewhere did I see on the box that was an educational game. Teaches you about pulleys, weights, gears and thinking ahead. Im tempted to re-install it now...

      --
      "I may be full of crap about this game, and I may be wrong, and that's fine." -Jack Thompson
    2. Re:None of the above. by Brian+Gordon · · Score: 4, Informative

      Age of Empires 2 was great for history. I didn't even hear the words "Holy Roman Empire" in class until World History at the end of high school, but I was already familiar with it from the missions and the history background info provided on the History tab. When you're 12 years old you have a lot of time and patience to play your favorite games over and over.

      Even if you don't know the names and dates, it's still immensely useful to have a general idea of what happened. At Agincourt a few English archers were able to shoot down from a hilltop and defeated the French army who got stuck in mud in their heavy armor. I don't know anything else about it but it's more than most people know.

      You can't help but learn from those kind of games. I haven't played Rise of Nations in 5 years but I still remember that the Terracotta Army was Chinese. I know what Angkor Wat and Versailles look like. These are all things that I first learned from that game.

    3. Re:None of the above. by moderatorrater · · Score: 1

      Exactly. It sounds like he's looking for things that can be played in someones spare time, which means that above all the games have to be fun. A lot of educational games aren't games at all, just interactive teaching which isn't necessarily bad, just not a game.

    4. Re:None of the above. by thinsoldier · · Score: 1

      But if there were upgrades that increased the strength of the bronze, decreased the weight of the wooden pole and made your troops do lots more arm-strength training then that info would suggest you invest in those upgrades instead of just coming straight out an telling you what to do. Then maybe after defeating your first opponent who'd advanced to big metal shields you unlock an achievement and a "300" styled 2 minute video about bronze forging, spear tactics and training methods.

    5. Re:None of the above. by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      I played many educational games in my own time. The Carmen Sandiego series immediately comes to mind. Also a lot of wheel of fortune and jeopardy. Games like this are somewhat educational while still being a lot of fun. Even when I was in school, we played games like Math Maze, and Math Ville, which were blatantly educational games but I still found them a lot of fun. At least more fun than actually doing standard math problem, while probably having about the same teaching ability.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    6. Re:None of the above. by Romancer · · Score: 1

      I think that all of those flash physics games are about as popular as educational games get before they require a long lead in. You can do the first few levels of fantastic contraption and get the basics, then have fun and compare solutions. The replayability is good too. Since you can set up your own rules for beating levels again. All water, no power, etc. There are a couple good ones out there that have a real following.

      The next step is those that require an investment to get to know the environment. These have a higher payoff as the storyline plays out but they require a lot more attention and time in the beginning and have to be engaging. That's the hard part. To get the person to stay long enough to become invested in the characters or cause while teaching them how to manuver and build up a playing stratagy to advance into the real meat of the game.

      --


      ) Human Kind Vs Human Creation
      ) It'd be interesting to see how many humans would survive to serve us.
    7. Re:None of the above. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From Wikipedia

      These missions are where the educational properties come into play, as the missions puzzle specifies, it will teach the player about Energy, Force and Motion, Simple Machines, Light, and Magnetism.

      Well, it's a star wars game. Of course it will teach about the force

    8. Re:None of the above. by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Age of Empires 2 was great for history.

      I remember how it taught me all about how the Scots won the Battle of Falkirk!

    9. Re:None of the above. by Njoyda+Sauce · · Score: 1

      A similar game that I enjoyed in my youth that was labeled as "educational" but played as a normal fun game was BannerCatch.
      A simplistic description:

      Bannercatch is a five-level partnership game of strategy and skill. You and your partner compete on a 64sector playing field against a character named Max. The object of the game is to capture Max's flag with your robots and carry it back to your part of the playing field. Your side has four joystick-controlled, "humanoid" robots. Max also has four robots.
            The game is quite involved and comes with a number of items including a detailed instruction manual, a reference card, a secret document marked "for robots only," a colorful bannercatch poster, bannercatch stickers, and playing field map.
            The playfield is huge. Only a portion of each of the 64-sectors of the playfield is visible on the screen at once. The screen is split so each partner can view a different part of the field. To keep track of your location, you have to note the sector number you're in and then refer to the playing field map.
            Defeating Max and his robots isn't easy. To do it you have to work with your partner and learn how to intercept and decode the secret messages he sends to his robots. That's where an added bonus comes in. Max and his robots communicate in binary code. By playing the game you learn to read binary numbers, an important skill to have if you're interested in computer programming.
            Besides defeating Max, another goal is revealing his mysterious face. Each time you win a game, a bit more of Max's face will appear. A special sheet is provided so you can gradually sketch in his face as you win more and more games.
            Interesting sound effects occur when you accidentally bump into something or when you cross the river dividing the playing field. Lively, well-written music helps announce the winner of each game. The action can be quite exciting as you try to elude Max's robots or chase them when they steal your flag. Careful though! I almost broke a joystick running from Tor, one of Max's robots.

      --

      You can only be young once, but you can be immature forever.
    10. Re:None of the above. by Brian+Gordon · · Score: 1

      The game set up the battle and you get to be the general, win or lose. There's no historical statement there; it's just a matter of how well you play.

    11. Re:None of the above. by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      I remember that game! I didn't know it was educational either, though I'm tempted to go dig out my old copy now since I do remember it being incredibly fun for the time.

      As for me, the educational games that I still remember from school were the ones that let me do stupid things. For instance, we were studying forests and the effects of underbrush density on forest fires in one class, so they had a video game where you could tweak the variables in an attempt to create a controlled burn to prevent a major forest fire from breaking out. Of course, most of us liked to see how quickly we could wipe out the entire forest, but we did learn the principles in between the mass destruction.

      Honestly, I know it's cliche, but teaching boys is easy: just make something blow up, get eaten, or otherwise cause destruction. Whether it's a robot with pulleys that crashes and burns, a "controlled" burn that goes out of control, or animals in the food chain eating each other, when things just break, boys take notice.

    12. Re:None of the above. by SoupGuru · · Score: 1

      You don't know how much history I learned trying to pass the age check quiz on Leisure Suit Larry.

      --
      What doesn't kill you only delays the inevitable
    13. Re:None of the above. by kenethare · · Score: 1

      I was going to post about Age of Empires but you beet me to it, *clap clap*. I agree that learning from games would be very useful in educational systems, I have a paper about just that for an english class some where that i can't find. I find that games i remember the most about are those that are the most fun. Like to this day i can run a game i have not played in years and still know the whole map, where everything is and always know where i'm going I don't know where anything is in the city I live in but I can find the powerups in a 10year old game no problem. So as long as the game is fun people will remember things from it, hence game quotes. so for me its more important to make a game fun to play. your educational element should not be blatant. Anyone else remember those horribly lame games for typing classes, i learned to type from selling stuff in an mmo. It should be the background element that is absorbed unnoticed while playing, like with Age of Empires. anyway good luck i hope someone somewhere finally starts making educational games that are actually good games, it would be wonderful if alot of games had an educational element and the future generations grow up playing them and are smarter because of it.

    14. Re:None of the above. by FishWithAHammer · · Score: 1

      You had to win to progress, even though they historically lost.

      --
      "You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
    15. Re:None of the above. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could you be thinking of Gizmos and Gadgets?

    16. Re:None of the above. by zobier · · Score: 1

      The OP may want to take a look at Mathletics, a popular subscription based Maths e-learning website with a game component.

      Disclaimer: I work for the publisher.

      Also, sorry for threadjacking.

      --
      Me lost me cookie at the disco.
    17. Re:None of the above. by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      In this case, they can go nuts here http://os.cqu.edu.au/oswinsdvd/, someone seems to have rummaged all over the web, looking for answers to that exact same question and even created a downloadable disc image, good work by Neville Richter.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    18. Re:None of the above. by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      The best teaching games is all about getting input from multiple sources. So fro any non-profit whose goal specially is to create a range of educational games, it is really all about infrastructure, not creating the games directly, but creating the management infrastructure to combine expertise from wide ranging sources, educational, child psychology and computer engineering.

      Step one contact all universities around the world with the aforementioned goal and see which ones wont to participate in a shared collective effort, involving lecturers and students from across the globe, in all the applicable disciplines required to tackle the project. You then establish the communication links and drive the effort. A real long term effort but one that is far more likely to be actually productive.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    19. Re:None of the above. by S-4'N3 · · Score: 1

      That sounds a lot like T.I.M, The Incredible Machine. A game they used to make us play at geek camp. Little did we know, we were actually learning something...

    20. Re:None of the above. by Swuave · · Score: 1

      I think an educational game should actually let you know what you are learning. As an adult I remember some old games, or old songs that I learnt when i was a kid. Then I learn something as an adult and I go "Oh thats what they were talking about" cause they didn't give me the context. I found a bunch of good educational games at this site http://www.gamestreamer.com/

  2. Doujin games, by Icegryphon · · Score: 1

    Without the sound they are going to have to read alot of text.
    Also will help with memorization since they will have to remember things like favorite colors, birthdates, likes, dislikes, etc.
    (/Sarcasm) Really, Educational and Games seems to always fail.

    1. Re:Doujin games, by admorgan · · Score: 1

      Really, Educational and Games seems to always fail.

      One of my all time favorite games was Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego? To this day I still have the theme song stuck in my head as well as more world trivia than I really need.

    2. Re:Doujin games, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You scratched me in a bad place. Educational games can be quite successful. Math blaster was popular with my peers when I was young, for example. Zelda also involves problem solving skills and it was quite popular, apply some more scientific concepts and students will find more motivation to follow their teacher in class or even get ahead. Suddenly those dryly presented concepts with no relevance to the student become *usable* in something that they *enjoy*.

      Also, terminology...
      Doujin games include FreeCiv, by definition.
      You are specifically thinking of Dating Sims/Visual Novels, the latter of which is getting voiced much more often, even when created by amateur artists, and is not limited to dating/romantic scenarios.

    3. Re:Doujin games, by thinsoldier · · Score: 1

      I disagree. Without chrono-trigger, breath of fire, and dungeon siege my brother might have been illiterate. And around here they let illiterate people "graduate" from high-school all the time.

    4. Re:Doujin games, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I disagree. Without chrono-trigger, breath of fire, and dungeon siege my brother might have been illiterate. And around here they let illiterate people "graduate" from high-school all the time.

      If that's the depth of his reading skills, then I'd argue that he is illiterate.

  3. Sim games by webax · · Score: 0, Redundant

    I certainly learned more about history from games like Colonization than I did in school. It's too bad that most Sim games, like Spore, distort reality horribly when they could have been made into valuable learning experiences with little effort.

  4. Obvious Edutainment is Doomed, Go With Puzzles by eldavojohn · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    Does length and depth of gameplay matter to you, or would you rather play a trivial game with subconscious educational value?

    In a paper we recently discussed, researchers noted that

    Ironically, they may even be less likely to become game makers themselves, helping to perpetuate the cycle. Many have suggested that games function as crucial gatekeepers for interest in science, technology, engineering and math.

    By that logic, almost all games offer children an actively engaged exercise in problem solving. Edutainment games seem to be dry and boring with the ulterior motive easily spoon fed to the player.

    I would stress games that have various degrees of puzzle solving but little obvious educational value. Look up the Castle of Dr. Brain. I played the hell out of that and would welcome a web based clone with higher level difficulty! I also feel it gave me great puzzle solving skills.

    Also, I'd like to caution you that we are a extreme set of the population. Opinions here may not be valuable to someone trying to reach the rest of the population. Of course we are predisposed to enjoy depth and length over trivial pop cap games with flashing jewels.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Obvious Edutainment is Doomed, Go With Puzzles by Aphoxema · · Score: 1

      You impress me with your pretty words and brainy thinking, eldavojohn.

      --
      "Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
    2. Re:Obvious Edutainment is Doomed, Go With Puzzles by rhendershot · · Score: 1

      Also, I'd like to caution you that we are a extreme set of the population. Opinions here may not be valuable to someone trying to reach the rest of the population.

      Which is a way of saying that you don't have a clue how to leverage gaming to edification in science.

      Science isn't problem solving, it's problem identification.

      An attempt at game-play within the goal of "increasing science literacy and awareness" should constantly present new technical facts and procedural scenarios. That's not game play.

      And is it science or scientific "literacy and awareness"?
      They're not the same thing.

    3. Re:Obvious Edutainment is Doomed, Go With Puzzles by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      Has it ever been shown that working out puzzles improves intelligence?

    4. Re:Obvious Edutainment is Doomed, Go With Puzzles by cyphercell · · Score: 1

      From what I understand that's debatable. On one hand you can practice the same sort of puzzles that are on the tests and get better at the tests, but how would one do on equivelant puzzles they haven't memorized? There's supposed to be a strong correlation between IQ and vocabulary, seems best to me. Puzzles by themselves don't seem to cover the breadth and depth that is intelligence. A *functional* vocabulary, that's different.

      --
      Under the influence of Post-Cyberpunk Gonzo Journalism
  5. Shoot Things! by Flea+of+Pain · · Score: 1

    Seriously, there was this one game I used to play years back where two numbers would pop up, if you added them correctly your little gun would blast some aliens that were running down a hall towards you. These weren't nice looking aliens either, it really made you want to add!

    --
    Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
    1. Re:Shoot Things! by hippo_of_knowledge · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's too bad that you could only bring 200 pounds of alien meat back to your space-wagon.

    2. Re:Shoot Things! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's too bad that you could only bring 200 pounds of alien meat back to your space-wagon.

      Because you just killed Rosie O'Donnell.

    3. Re:Shoot Things! by ausekilis · · Score: 1

      Even worse that half the team died of disentery (or whatever the most common disease was).

    4. Re:Shoot Things! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

                Here lies
              AQUAMAN

      peperony and
      chease

  6. It's all about the concepts by freemywrld · · Score: 1

    I think for the age range you are targeting, the style of game that would have the most educational value (as in that something is actually learned and reinforced) works around putting understanding of concepts to use to solve problems within the game. The biggest problem for many students is being taught concepts but not how to apply them or use them to critically think through a challenge. If the game centered around having to discover and then apply scientific ideas/concepts to navigate through the game to reach various goals, then students would not just learn random facts or trivia, but would actually gain experience in critical thinking and application of abstract information.

  7. All of below: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here's a short list of things found in educational games:

    The Towers of Hanoi
    Numbers that need to be munched
    People dying of dysentery
    Typing tutorials which can let you get 300 words per minute by spamming the 'a' and space bar

    Man, I miss my Apple 2e.

    (p.s., captcha=expelled)

  8. All I know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    is that educational games are usually (by which I mean always) not fun.

  9. Only one thing ever matters. by Doc,+the+Weasel · · Score: 1

    I like *fun* games. If it's fun, then you can make me learn all you want.

    The problem is that most educational games start with the lesson and then try to build the game around it. Start with a good game and then make it educational.

  10. My preference... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What captivates me is some type of mystery where an unknown has to be solved. Totally dating myself here, but I remember spending hours playing "The Halley Project" on the old C64. Basically flying a spaceship around the solar system gathering clues on where to go next...heading to the library [this was pre internet] to research the clues, fly to the next destination, etc.

  11. What's in an educational game? by dyingtolive · · Score: 0

    Code. Some pictures. Maybe a couple sounds.

    Next?

    Seriously though, there are a lot of people who are saying that educational games aren't fun, but I remember some from my childhood that I always enjoyed. Gizmos and Gadgets was one. I also enjoyed the Math Blaster ones. Maybe its because I was a nerd, maybe they just tried harder back then, but I think they made you think and you enjoyed the game at the same time.

    --
    Support the EFF and Creative Commons. The war is coming, and they're supporting you...
    1. Re:What's in an educational game? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      all the "blaster" games were fukin pimp, almost like playing qubert also Gizmoes and gadgets was one of the funest games i had ever played as a kind, id sit in the learning smith or whatever that mall store that sold nothing but educational toys was called for hours playing it.

  12. Define your goal, then build the game by guruevi · · Score: 1

    The first thing you need to define is: what would be the goal of the game. It's probably not for time consuming leisure but to get the kids to learn something. But what do you want them to learn? Do you want them to learn math, then you'll need to integrate math somehow, for reading you should integrate words somehow, if you want to increase reaction time or cognition then you'll have to probably build a shooter. It also has to be fun and rewarding, if the kid doesn't like playing with it then they are going to get disengaged and not learn anything. If it takes to long to learn how to play the game or it gets too difficult too quick, the kids won't like it, likewise if it is going to be too easy for too long, they will again get bored. Maybe an algorithm that detects the rate of speed the kid is learning at or the level the kid is at already would be helpful. Then you will also require the story of the game to be involved in whatever you want to learn them. If for example you are trying to teach reading (and subsequently writing) you might not want to have too much multiple choice or clicking answers but have them type in answers. If you are trying to teach math they again will have to somehow learn math through involvement in the story. Math (addition, substraction, multiplication) is fairly simple for most but thinking about how to solve a math problem (understanding the problem) is much more involved and that is what they are going to need. Example: A company charges a flat rate of 7c per minute for a phone call but always charges at least 70c. What is the actual per minute cost of a 7 minute call. That is a question that I recently saw on an entrance exam for a college and a question that most of the students struggled with answering correctly.

    Some general guidelines.
    - Refrain from including a commercial character (eg. Spongebob or Teletubbies), that way you won't run into copyright issues and the game will also not become boring or old very quickly (whenever a new character comes out)
    - Make sure you understand the level of understanding of your audience as well as their progress and at what point it is too easy, too difficult or too boring.
    - Make sure you concentrate on a good story and a good involvement of your subject into that story.
    - Make sure that the game makes the kids feel rewarded or feel better. If they are going to see it as a classroom/schooling instead of a game they will not get engaged in it.
    - Ask an actual kid what they think about it at certain points. Make a storybook and ask them if that's something they'll like. Talk to child psychologists and teachers as well.

    --
    Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
  13. Fast to learn, hard to master by santax · · Score: 1

    I like a game that is easy to get into but then can take up your whole life trying to master it. In my younger years for example I was a Dutch youthchampion in chess. That is what I look for in a game, not to many rules, relative easy to get you started but still providing you with a great challenge after you have learned the basics. I like stuf like sokoban, sudoku, atoms.

  14. Well designed hero by DrWho520 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Just to tack onto the above point, I agree overtly educational games are a waste of energy. Puzzles and resource management games, like Oregon Trail, have a much better chance at successfully completing your requirements.

    I think an intellectual hero as the players avatar would be a nice touch. A Susan Calvin or Hari Seldon character that uses knowledge and wisdom (a Tom Swift without the natural genius) to solve problems. Instead of the absent minded professor and his beautiful-yet-intelligent-and-spunky daughter needing rescuing, have the scientist do the rescuing. Or better yet, have the absent minded professor's hard working apprentice do the rescuing. You know, a young man or woman that your target demographic can relate to.

    --
    The cancel button is your friend. Do not hesitate to use it.
    1. Re:Well designed hero by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      I dunno, Where in the Foo is Carmen Sandiego is pretty overtly educational, but it was still fun and successful.

    2. Re:Well designed hero by kannibal_klown · · Score: 1

      Back on my old 486 there was some math-based educational game that I recall loving. It was a side-scroller with decent graphics. I think I even played it a few times a few years later when the math it was teaching was already below me just because it was a decent 2d game.

      I'll be darned if I can remember what the name of that game was.

      I also enjoyed "Where in the X is Carmen Sandiego"

    3. Re:Well designed hero by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      Instead of the absent minded professor and his beautiful-yet-intelligent-and-spunky daughter needing rescuing, have the scientist do the rescuing. Or better yet, have the absent minded professor's hard working apprentice do the rescuing. You know, a young man or woman that your target demographic can relate to.

      I'm thinking of Penny, Inspector Gadget's daughter(niece? Niece sounds right). She was always saving his moron ass with her computer book (zomg a portable computer the size of an unabridged dictionary?!) and was rarely just a damsel in distress. Gadget isn't exactly a great setting for an educational game, but the Penny character at least seems like a good model for what you're talking about.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    4. Re:Well designed hero by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think I even played it a few times a few years later when the math it was teaching was already below me just because it was a decent 2d game.

      At the age of 20, I discovered I can totally pwn Number Munchers.

    5. Re:Well designed hero by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      was it math rescue from apogee?

      shareware episode: http://www.3drealms.com/downloads.html
      buy full version download: http://www.buy3drealms.com/

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    6. Re:Well designed hero by cyphercell · · Score: 1

      Other characters. Abraham Van Helsing, Robert Neville (I am Legend) - might be cool setting up traps and learning anatomy. Abraham Van Helsing was based on a character archetype known as the Byronic Hero http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byronic_hero. By definition, Robert Neville might qualify as well http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/byronic+hero?qsrc=2446.

      I'm also quite convinced that Captain Jack Sparrow of Pirates of The Caribbean, must have an IQ around 140, or at the very least a remarkably high spatial intelligence.

      Encyclopedia Brown and Sherlock Holmes come to mind as well.

      --
      Under the influence of Post-Cyberpunk Gonzo Journalism
  15. What are you trying to teach? by changedx · · Score: 0

    Education is a very broad term. Teaching language is very different from teaching arithmetic or science or music. Rock Band is decent for teaching beginning drum skills. An adventure game or even a specialized MMO could be useful for language immersion.

  16. Mario is Missing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Go rent it, or whatever.

    1. Re:Mario is Missing. by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      mmm fun game I remember it well

      Though you could (and I pretty much did) get through it mostly by guesswork and brute force, the only real point where you had to be a bit carefull was alcatraz (since you needed a taxi token to get there and another to get away and you could only make one attempt at returning the artifact per visit.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  17. Interactive exploration by OrangeMonkey11 · · Score: 1

    Something that allows kids to interact with the games through exploration and puzzle solving. Any of you remember those make your own adventure books, if someone can use that same basic concept I think would not be very boring to play.

  18. MindRover by khayman80 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I highly recommend "Mindrover." In this game, you build and program a little robot that goes through obstacle courses, fights other robots, etc. It's got an intuitive graphical programming language (though you can edit the files directly for a more advanced, hands-on approach). You get to program the robot's default behavior, define how it responds to threats, program "hunting" strategies, etc.

    The main website appears to be down, but here's the community site with a demo for free download. If someone had given me this game when I was a kid, I'd definitely be a better programmer today.

    1. Re:MindRover by techess · · Score: 1

      I'm going to have to check that one out. Thanks for the link. I remember programming in turtle quite a bit from 2nd - 5th grade. When I got into "real" high school programming I was able to pick it up much quicker than most of the other kids because of all the time I wasted making programs with turtle.

      I also played Project LRNJ: Slime Forest quite a bit to help me learn the Japanese Alphabet. They did a pretty good job of making the game fun though it did get a bit repetitive.

      --
      Don't anthropomorphize computers. They *hate* that.
    2. Re:MindRover by khayman80 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Ah, turtle. I used to prank my classmates by surreptitiously typing commands into their keyboards that sent the turtle into an infinite loop. It would cover the screen with tracks until the confused teacher decided to reboot the machine. Good times...

  19. Oregon Trail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    One has only to look at Oregon Trail to get your answers.

    The thing that made Orgeon Trail a success IMO is that little information was forced upon the user. Anything information that was trying to be taught, was presented either in a place that the user had to go and ask for the information, or was a part of the actual game itself. Talking with townsfolk would reveal historic facts. The player did not have to talk with the townsfolk to play the game. However, the key was how much information was stuffed into the game itself. Nearly everybody these days knows the options one has to get a wagon across a river: ford the river, caulk the wagon and float it, or pay for the ferry. It was an integral part of the game and choosing was simple: just select one option and go. Since there were consequences from every decision, players grew to understand that fording a river that is 5 feet high was likely a bad idea and would cut the game short due to drowning.

    What one can get from all of this is that the key to making an educational game is to incorporate what you are trying to teach into the game, while still letting the player bypass most of it.

  20. mandate? how about "goal" by rhendershot · · Score: 1

    whose mandate is

    I'd like to know from whence this alleged mandate comes.

    I think you mean you are another group with a common bond and you have a goal. "Non Profit"? I didn't see any mention of 501C.

    Increase science literacy and awareness - maybe you could explain just what metric you would use.

    "Science Alberta Foundation operates under the governance of a volunteer Board of Directors composed of accomplished individuals from across the province"

    did you get the PR you were looking for?

  21. Instructional Objectives by BlueBoxSW.com · · Score: 1

    You have to start with Instructional Objectives if you're going to create an educational game.

    The trick is designing these in a way that translates into a teachable experience that's fun and sticks to what you're trying to teach.

    The hard part is doing this well. It's kind of like translating a book to a screenplay. Some things translate well (scenery, dialog), but other things have to be reworked into a different presentation (timelines, inner thoughts, points of view, backstory).

    If you're trying to teach based on recall, your game is going to be one big pop quiz.

    If you're teaching rules, you need to create a plausible scenario where they can make the right decision based on the rules, and design the game in a way that creates enough opportunities.

    If you're teaching attitudes, you have a lot more flexibility in gameplay, but the number of different interactions if often limited.

    You need to think about whether you want the game to actually teach people the information, or whether it should be a testing tool. And, while with games you want there to be a clear winner, the idea behind education is to teach everyone, so make sure the losers aren't simply discouraged from learning about the topic.

    1. Re:Instructional Objectives by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am a hobbyist game designer, and I have one thing to say about this:
      Don't attempt unless you are actually a game designer, or you are willing to learn to make other games just for the fun value first. The reason educational games are so painful to play is that the people making them believe that programming/graphics are the only required skills.
      I have at least 4 books on game design sitting on my shelf, a lot more on graphics, why things are fun, a lot of powerpoints saved on my computer, and a lot of games which I have learned from.
      I know "The normal flash games doesn't take that much work! That's just professional games!", that's because the normal flash game you find probably got really lucky. Game design takes work.

      So please, either invest the time or don't. Half-assing it won't make anyone happy.

  22. Research by Aphoxema · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This brings to mind the discussions in the commentary mode in Half Life 2 and company. A big issue with testing was keeping the players focus on something without forcing them to look a certain way, usually by some obvious event in a direction not encumbered with dull scenery.

    Another focus, and I've seen this in a lot of games, is never to tell you what to do but make figuring out that the solution easy the first time in a simple form, then being given a much more complex form of it to work with sometime later. Throughout the game, you're given more 'tools' for solutions and they stack up into greater puzzles but never anything so incredibly complicated it'll piss the player off.

    Research is the most important part of these massive efforts and contenders like Valve put a Hell of a lot of money into it. In this case I would suggest some of your own research applied to the already improved methods.

    --
    "Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
  23. Carmen Sandiego: Balanced Education and Gameplay by Coolwave · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Forgoing game play and resorting to strictly to trivia is an easy way to create a game fast and expand it easily but in my opinion it doesn't keep you coming back. When I was a kid I practically wore out the pocket atlas that came with Carmen Sandiego not only was I learning about geography I was playing a fun game. Even after I had seen all of the different questions I continued to play because it was fun and therefore continued to reinforce what I learned.

    The length of the game should be short but engaging because you don't want it to be a tedious experience. If it is a short but intense experience you can always play a second round but if it takes too long or it becomes boring then the game will be abandoned and the point of it is lost. I my opinion is that 5 to 10 minute rounds of game play are best. It is short enough that a teacher might be able to sneak it in at the end of a class or depending on the platform a child can play quickly on a mobile device.

  24. Read some of the literature... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Serious games and educationally oriented games are beginning to take traction as a viable educational technology. Ask the Googles about "serious games". The research in this field has gone from researchers simply dismissing games to researchers embracing games and investigating the impact of games on targeted educational outcomes.

    As a starting point Jim Gee has a great book on the subject. Here's a quick blurb: http://www.xplanazine.com/2004/10/what-video-games-have-to-tell-us-about-learning-and-literacy-a-brief-look
      and a link to the book from the Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Video-Games-Teach-Learning-Literacy/dp/1403961697

  25. Re:mandate? how about "goal" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Alberta is in Canada. 501(c) is for U.S. Federal income taxes.

  26. Better group to ask by Monkeyboy4 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Ask this question on twitter #gamedesign
    A group of people with deeper expereince than here will have some thoughts on it.

    1. Re:Better group to ask by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Horribly suggestion.

      He isn't talking about designing a game, he is talking about what makes it interesting. And based on the many kids games, game developers have no clue how to create an educational kids game that is interesting.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:Better group to ask by Cornflake917 · · Score: 1

      Horribly suggestion.

      Horrable grammer.

    3. Re:Better group to ask by Monkeyboy4 · · Score: 1

      You know what makes a game interesting? Good Design.

      Sure, many kids educational games suck, but would you not ask a large group of architects how to build a house because so many suburban houses are crap?

  27. Re:mandate? how about "goal" by rhendershot · · Score: 1

    right but a Non Profit is likely to be registered in USA if from Canada. my assumption. pardons.

  28. Here we go.... by CorporateSuit · · Score: 1

    It all sort of depends on what gender you're targetting. If you want to target the girls, your software should include unlockable furniture, clothes, pets, ponies and a cute main character. If you want to target the boys, include enemies that challenge them "You can never defeat me!", levels, unlockable weapons, armor, and violent situations. Japanimation is huge with the kiddy crowd nowadays. Including such art would not lessen your audience or the games' appeal among minors. Your game is now horribly addictive.

    As far as gameplay goes, it's not that important as long as you've followed my instructions to this point. Try playing some of the old Super Solvers games -- we LOVED those games. Don't forget to include secrets and hidden clickables for the kids to laugh about. Put silly trivia in the loading screens (kids love trivia they can tell their parents) like "You can burp by swallowing a mouthful of air" or "A grizzly bear's nose is 1 million times more powerful than a human's!"

    --
    I am the richest astronaut ever to win the superbowl.
  29. You only get to do it ONCE: by kulakovich · · Score: 1

    Hi anonymous reader: I used to work in a very similar situation here in the states. I will tell you what I said at an exec meeting that carried a lot and still holds true with this genre: Make it fun; you only get to bore a kid once.

    Goodluck, contact me if you want to talk about any of this.

    kulakovich

  30. phet.colorado.edu by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Provide a way for kids to interact with sophisticated models in interesting ways. They'll learn to do science, not just that DNA is a double helix.

  31. fantastic contraption by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    www.fantasticcontraption.com

  32. Many 8 - 12 y/o's on shalshdot? by petes_PoV · · Score: 1
    Is this age range represented much on /.?

    I would think there are better places to ask this question, if you want a reply from the people the question is addressed at. If it does turn out that this is where 8 - 12's spend their time, then I'm in the wrong place - though it could explain some of the comments that appear.

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
    1. Re:Many 8 - 12 y/o's on shalshdot? by querist · · Score: 1

      I doubt there are many 8-12 year olds on Slashdot, but many of us here have children in that age range and can comment on what held our children's interest.

      I believe Slashdot would be a good place to ask this. I suspect that I am not along among parents on Slashdot who, when considering a new game or toy for our children, consider how well it maintains their interest as well as replayability.

    2. Re:Many 8 - 12 y/o's on shalshdot? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      There are many parents here.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:Many 8 - 12 y/o's on shalshdot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a 12-year-old parent, you insensitive clod!

  33. Darwin Pond--What Spore should have been like by plasmidmap · · Score: 4, Informative

    I've always thought that Darwin Pond was a cool piece of free (beer) software that could be used to teach evolution. It's a simulation game with swimming organisms that compete for food and mates. There's even assortative mating built in.

    What's great about it is there's no fixed goal, it's completely up to the player--maybe you want to try to breed fast swimmers or cool moving swimmers. You can watch the abundance of types change through time, try out your own "designed" types or introduce random mutations into the population.

    I would recommend games like this.

  34. Valve's Portal by sevensykoseven · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If i just look at resent games I have played for entertainment, I would have to say I found Valve's Portal to be quite educational. It forces to you really think and problem solve. I feel problem solving is crucial to an educational game. Portal was entertaining enough to keep my attention and forced me to use problem solving skills. win/win

    1. Re:Valve's Portal by Abstrackt · · Score: 1

      The only thing I learned from Portal was "speedy thing goes in, speedy thing comes out".

      --
      They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance. - Terry Pratchett
  35. Compatition!!!!!!!! by cdpage · · Score: 1

    if i am at work or school, i want something short but sweet, ie tetris, planar, 3d puzzles, or games like the incredible machine.

    I do enjoy games with virtually no educational value too, but what it boils down to is score, time or however you can compare it to your friends or those around the world.

    Am i SMRT?

    I doubt i would want to play an education game that take a long time (not including playing the same thing over and over)
    But i wouldn't mind being proven wrong... is there a game that is considered long that many people like?

  36. Immersion, think Myst by itsanx · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A game with emphasis on beauty and immersion could teach me a lot of things. Like the Myst games; immersive enough to have me decipher an alien number system. Could as well have taught me hexadecimals or binary numbers.

    1. Re:Immersion, think Myst by techess · · Score: 1

      That is exactly what Rama did for me. It was an old Sierra game based on the Arthur C. Clarke. You learn two alien number systems which just happen to be octal and hexadecimal. I didn't realize until later how much I actually learned and remembered. Plus the puzzles were a blast.

      --
      Don't anthropomorphize computers. They *hate* that.
    2. Re:Immersion, think Myst by itsanx · · Score: 1

      So by providing a convincing setting, these games made us curious to hear the rest of the story. Also, at some point learning occurred. That might be a good hint as to what edutainment software should be like.

    3. Re:Immersion, think Myst by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      A game with emphasis on beauty and immersion could teach me a lot of things. Like the Myst games; immersive enough to have me decipher an alien number system. Could as well have taught me hexadecimals or binary numbers.

      Yeah, I recall a lengthy sequence in Stephenson's Diamond Age where the Primer taught Nell about binary numbers and encodings, boolean logic, transistor logic circuits, and even lisp programming by analogizing them into puzzles she had to solve to escape a mythical castle. One of the puzzles was even a kind of Turing Test! I remember reading it and thinking it sounded like a very fun way to learn those kinds of things and I wished they'd make a game like it. The water-gates-as-transistors part I thought was especially cool, and didn't seem that far from the kinds of puzzles you'd find in Myst.

      Definitely potential in that area.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    4. Re:Immersion, think Myst by Krakhan · · Score: 1

      Speaking of deciphering alien number systems, there was a very old computer game released in the 80s called Captain Blood, where progress in was achieved by communicating with other races of aliens using various symbols within the interface, where each symbol would mean different things to the aliens. You initially don't know anything about what they mean for each race, as a major part of the game is to figure that out so you can get critical information from them. By far the coolest concept in the game, one I've never really seen with that kind of interface used elsewhere.

  37. Does it runs in linux? by gmuslera · · Score: 1

    That it runs in computers that meant to be educational (like the XO) is a plus.

    Also, educational in what topics? for what target age? You could count world of goo or civilization educational, but are totally different kind of education or required age.

  38. How about table quiz format by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't think it has to be complicated to be good (and addictive/engrossing)

    A simple Q & A type thing with images etc., that gives feedback to the users can be very good.

    Do a wiki search for "table quiz" - they are popular in the UK and Ireland.

    Rosetta Stone whilst not a game is an educational application that is very rewarding to use.

  39. Makes me wonder, though by Moraelin · · Score: 3, Informative

    It kinda makes me wonder though if at that point it's really an educational game, or just a fun RTS that's just vaguely historically themed.

    E.g., at Agincourt,

    - it wasn't on a hill, it was on flat ground. The hill was at Crecy.

    - it wasn't just archers. About 1/5 of the English army were dismounted knights functioning as a heavy pikemen in front of the archers. The hail of arrows and the mud were one factor, but without that wall of pikes the French heavy cavalry would have reached the archers and cut them down. With heavy losses, but they would have.

    In effect, what really happened was more of a "the knights lost to combined arms" case than "the knights lost to archers."

    - the terrain played a more massive part than just the mud. There also was the fact that it was flanked on both sides by heavy woods, which was as good as impenetrable during a battle. (Anyone trying to make their way through it, would have arrived the next day at best.) Which allowed the relatively small number of pikemen to form a phalanx 4 rows deep and still completely prevent access to the archers, as well as be immune to flanking. (When facing lots of cavalry, flanking is your #1 worry. That's what the cavalry is there for.)

    Plus, it severely limited how many french could actually get into melee with the English. Even on foot and packed shoulder to shoulder, there seems to have been room for a little over 200 in a line. Which severely blunted the whole numbers advantage of the French. By contemporary French accounts, those in the third row of the attack wave already couldn't use their swords against the English.

    Worse yet, the French ended up packed in a tight formation, which is the worst possible kind against missile fire.

    On an open hilltop, the story would have been very different.

    - the french heavy armour played a much lesser role in their delay. The heaviest armour (chain or plate alike) at the time was about 40 pounds, and it would be almost another 200 years before plate got to be 60 pounds. Compared to the weight of the human and the horse, that was peanuts.

    The terrain there was freshly ploughed earth and literally soaked in water. Some people have actually drowned in that mud, which gives an idea of how liquid it was. Even without armour, marching through it would have been a pain.

    On the whole, probably the armour still actually helped. Otherwise they'd be dead even sooner.

    - it wasn't really "a few" archers. It was 5000 archers, raining a total of 1000 arrows per second upon the enemy. To give you a comparison, it's the equivalent of over a hundred M-60 machineguns on full auto, non-stop. It wasn't just missile fire, it was concentrated missile fire, the kind that would not be seen again until WW1.

    Etc.

    So basically did that game really teach you much history, or was it just a game? I just have to wonder.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:Makes me wonder, though by FishWithAHammer · · Score: 1

      The Agincourt map wasn't "on a hill." He misremembered.

      --
      "You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
    2. Re:Makes me wonder, though by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't that what the poster to which you just replied already said?

    3. Re:Makes me wonder, though by Arthur+B. · · Score: 1

      No, he said that the real Azincourt was on flat ground, gp said that the game Azincourt was also on flat ground so the OP's error was not induced by the game being inaccurate but because he misremembered it.

      --
      \u262D = \u5350
    4. Re:Makes me wonder, though by Brian+Gordon · · Score: 1

      Yeah you're right. The Agincourt mission was on flat ground. I was remembering one of the user-created scenarios, not the official one.

    5. Re:Makes me wonder, though by forkazoo · · Score: 1

      It kinda makes me wonder though if at that point it's really an educational game, or just a fun RTS that's just vaguely historically themed.

      Oh, the point ws to make a fun RTS, and include soem history wherever it helped flesh out the fun. That said, for all your very accurate points about how the OP was wrong about Agincourt, he knows it exists, and knows that archers were very significant to the battle. That puts him ahead of most folks I know.

      To address one of your specific points:

      In effect, what really happened was more of a "the knights lost to combined arms" case than "the knights lost to archers."

      And the OP probably understands your point about combined arms from playing RTS games with "Rock Paper Scissors" loops for unit effectiveness. If he only had a background of ordinary High School education, not only would he not know enough about Agincourt to get some of it wrong and get corrected -- he wouldn't be able to understand the corrections, either! :)

      Sure, a game can be a bad way to learn some specifics. (If I always lose the mission, I may wind up misunderstanding who actually won the historical battle!) But, for a lot of background theory, something like an RTS can be surprisingly good at inspiring a general interest in a topic that wouldn't have otherwise been studied at all.

      Whenever I see a game that goes out of its way to be educational, I generally see a game that winds up being less educational than a fun game which has a lot of information, simply because kids will focus so intently on the fun game. IF you focus on something like that, and just try to consciously avoid confusing misinformation, you can deliver what all those terrible "edutainment" titles have failed to do in the past.

    6. Re:Makes me wonder, though by Moraelin · · Score: 1

      Well, that's sorta what I was wondering about: how far can you go with making it educational, before it ceases to be fun to play at all.

      Since we're in a sub-thread about history, history isn't really just about when some fun (at least in the RTS implementation;) battle happened, but even more importantly the historical political and occasionally economic conditions that led to the conflict.

      Ok, Agincourt is easy, but let's take Manzikert. The battle itself would be trivial to implement, but the battle itself is really the least interesting there. Byzantium obtained a white peace there, in spite of technically losing the battle badly. But what happened after it, and partially before it, is why it's credited with being the beginning of the end for the Eastern Roman Empire.

      Or as another example, take the decline of Rome, through the moving of the capital at Ravena and the final fall to Odoacer. Sure, one can make a great game out of it. Rome Total War: Barbarian Invasion focused on that era and was heaps of fun. But it didn't even scratch the surface of how the Western Roman Empire really imploded. In reality, the Barbarians were weaker than the game credits them. It was Romes's own political instability, plagues, etc, that did it in.

      How much of that can one pack in a game, and still have people want to play it?

      Don't get me wrong, I'm not dissing games as such. It's just that, yes, it seems to me like the best they can do is get someone above the level of the average teenager who didn't pay attention in history class. Better than nothing, to be sure, but still not _that_ great in the education aspect IMHO.

      --
      A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    7. Re:Makes me wonder, though by Brian+Gordon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But it didn't even scratch the surface of how the Western Roman Empire really imploded.

      Still, unless they're actually in school, how many people think about the fall of Rome? How many think about Rome at all in their lives, or even ancient history for that matter? Reminding people of history and getting people interested is enough to get some to curiously click a link on Wikipedia and get the real history behind the fall of Rome.

      Playing the game makes it real to people, and important.. it turns Rome from "I think I remember that name from school" to something real.

      How much of that can one pack in a game, and still have people want to play it?

      Interesting question and I think Rome Total War answers it well. Just integrate it into the gameplay and don't tack it on. For example you have to understand the impact of the Marian reforms that come around midgame in order to manage your empire well.

    8. Re:Makes me wonder, though by amateur6 · · Score: 1

      Hey, that's cool. ...wait a minute... ... /. is an educational game!

    9. Re:Makes me wonder, though by cyphercell · · Score: 1

      The Prince by Niccolo Machiavelli and The Art of War by Sun Tzu, ought to cover some objective scenarios.

      --
      Under the influence of Post-Cyberpunk Gonzo Journalism
  40. Pirates! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Historical based, but didn't have to learn a thing. And I get to shoot things and get into sword fights.

  41. Wickedpissah games by e9th · · Score: 1

    If flash based games don't bother you, look at some of Wickedpissah's offerings. They certainly get me thinking about physics, though they're not intended to be instructional. I think that children, especially older ones, might really get a kick out of some of them, and get an intuitive feel for how objects interact at the same time.

  42. "Simple" by geekoid · · Score: 1

    The educational part need to be hidden as part of the game. SO they are learning witbhout realiing it.

    And the game need to be entertaining.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  43. Having designed a few games myself... by ausekilis · · Score: 1
    There are a number of things to consider when designing any game:
    • Define your target audience. Even kids ages 8-12 vary quite a bit. Are you targeting girls? boys? What do you percieve to be their interests? Get some kids in your target age range to tell you about games they like and see if you can borrow some concepts. Keep them involved in testing too. The reason shows like "Dora the explorer" are so popular is because the kid feels as though they are joining in the adventure.
    • Define your story. Every good game as some sort of objective, even puzzle games. Educational games are no different. Is there some Antagonist involved? "Beating level 7" is not as interesting as "taking down the evil emperor". With a younger audience, keep it simple and reasonable. Maybe becoming the star player of some game (soccer, baseball, etc..) or the best race car driver would work.
    • Define your approach. Using your story, how are some ways you can progress through it? If the objective is to conquer territory, then you'd have some way to win the game neighborhood-by-neighborhood. Almost Zelda-like in that you take down dungeon by dungeon before facing Ganon. Also consider the attention span of your audience. If you have one level that takes them 20 minutes of repetitive playing, you may lose a lot of players. If you're doing some sort of platform game, you may consider having some way to save progress. If you're doing simple web app games, then you'll want to keep them short and sweet.

    We used this book in a game design class I took. While certainly not an end-all-be-all book on game design, it certainly got the class thinking about some of the subtleties in games. How to approach accomplishment in the game, how to encourage the player to keep going (important for younger ones so they don't get frustrated), etc...

  44. Educationalize This by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    fiasco into a game.

    Yours In Democracy,
    Kilgore T.

  45. Decent tooltips by roguegramma · · Score: 1

    I would suggest you take a working game and add background information. If you proceed a different way, for example designing the teaching goals first, you put your own creativity to a very hard test.

    For example I was recently asked what I would like to see in the "Modern Combat" Add-On to Battle for Wesnoth as unit descriptions. I answered: I want to see the history of these units. But providing history demands quite an effort in research.

    --
    Hey don't blame me, IANAB
  46. A Solid Romance by digitalderbs · · Score: 1

    A good emotional game should evoke the feelings. The protagonist should be a rotund, past-her-prime female who recounts her tales of being swept off her feet by two English gentlement, one of whom deserves her, and the other being the object of her affections. A side quest to collect the most flowers could only add to such a game.

  47. Educational content as "cheat codes" by jbeaupre · · Score: 3, Insightful

    My wife is a middle school science teacher. I suggested she should tell the kids that learning science is like learning the cheat codes to the universe.

    How about making that a bit more literal. Maybe concepts could be adapted to be "cheat codes" or "upgrades" in actual games. Think of how much time is spent in games trying to improve and optimize character, weapon, or vehicle abilities. What if you had a game that let you upgrade your weapons by applying new concepts. For example, complete a task and you are taught f=ma. You get to modify your weapon by choosing m. Next task and you are given more information, such as how a is a function of m. Start introducing more variables. Every variable and every interaction is a teachable concept.

    Heck, eventually you could have some kid working on differential equations for orbital mechanics so that he can kick his buddy's ass during 5th period math. The kid discovers Holman transfers so that he has maximum weapons payload to dump on his friend.

    --
    The world is made by those who show up for the job.
    1. Re:Educational content as "cheat codes" by 2obvious4u · · Score: 1

      Someone please make this game, it sounds like so much fun.

    2. Re:Educational content as "cheat codes" by Whorhay · · Score: 1

      For boys at least you could make a FPS style game. Where in order to reload you must accomplish an arithmetic question. In order to obtain more ammo with which you may reload you have to do more problems, possibly of any sort (reading comprehension, spelling, math, math word problems, the list could go on). You could make almost all interactions with objects in the world involve solving a problem, anything that you'd want done without breaking the pace of gameplay would probably be best left as a simple arithmetic question, the kind of problems that you usually encourage children to memorize.

      Granted that's a very straight forward way of implementing the educational material into a game and it may garner resistance from children. That could be addressed though by tailoring the difficulty so that the game provides a simple enough challenge that the child doesn't mind the occasional halt in game play.

    3. Re:Educational content as "cheat codes" by Maria+D · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT for game mechanics to be intrinsically connected to the content. "Solve an exercise, reload a gun" demotivates the content of exercises, because they are seen as obstacles to some (other) prize. It takes a bit more thought to figure out how to make your content a necessary part of the game play, but it's worth it.

      For a good math example in particular, try Zoombinis.

  48. Re:mandate? how about "goal" by CyberDong · · Score: 1

    FYI: They're a registered charity in Canada.

  49. You're asking the wrong people. by jimicus · · Score: 1

    I'm assuming here that education is your primary goal, and the game is simply the means to achieve that goal.

    Here's why you're asking the wrong people:

    Most educational software is lousy. This is because the people who write it tend to fall into one of two groups:

    • Software developers. These people produce software which is stable, easy to deploy across a network and doesn't make assumptions like "the end user can write to any location on the hard disk they choose". Which is great - except it doesn't generally teach anything very well. Guess what - most teachers don't like this software much and won't use it.
    • Teachers with a side interest in computing. The software teaches ideas beautifully, but tends to crash randomly, actively resists being deployed using any automated mechanism ("what's wrong with going to every PC, inserting a CD and typing D:\setup?") and assumes that the end user can write to C:\Windows.

    Teaching is all about getting ideas across, so the people you need to talk to are the best teachers. Some may hang around on /., but by and large you're going to get ideas from people who have never tried to get ideas across in their life.

  50. Parasite Eve by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I did learn a lot about mithocondrias while playing parasite eve ( PlayStation ) .

  51. Headbone Interactive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Growing up, I played a number of great edutainment titles from Headbone Interactive, specifically the Elroy series. Since they were made in Macromedia Director, they could probably be ported to the web these days. What other company could be brave enough to make an entire game about pants? Pantsylvania was the strangest of the bunch...

  52. Work some smackdown into it by RevWaldo · · Score: 1

    A game that allows you to send your opponent home crying for his/her mama simply by know more than he/she does would provide some serious learning incentive. "I'll show you! (sniff) I'm gonna memorize the periodic table, Maxwell's equations and the US Constitution, and then you'll be sorry!"

  53. Measurement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Making a game that looks educational while still being fun is the easy part. The real challenge is figuring out whether or not a given game is actually contributing to learning. The research on measuring retention of facts learned through play, short term and long, is in a sad state.

  54. Are you teaching content or skills? by Ohio+Calvinist · · Score: 1

    The major difference between "educational" games and so called "non-educational" games, is that the developer's goal in educational games is to use the game to teach some "thing" where in non-educational games the purpose is generally the game-itself. This is a completely artifical distinction based on if you're teaching pure "content" (such as learning the colors, or geopgraphy) versus as "skill" (such as memory, or problem solving). For example, if my game is about teaching world geography, I wouldn't want to constrain the player to North America because they are not good at the execution of game (e.g. flying a plane to photograph landmarks). If the goal is teaching memory-through-geography, I would constain them to a small geographic area until they demonstate proficiency. (granted, this is an oversimplification)

    The Sim City games are like this... resource management skills are fundamental throughout, but as you go later the balancing, scope and city size make that skill harder to execute, but doesn't require the user to engage in complicated play before reaching the "resource management" stuff.

    Also consider the question; "Is this a game that is going to be used directly by schools as part of their cirriculm or is this a game you're hoping kids will come to of their own volition?" It completely changes the level of "overtness" in learning that you can use to get their maximum adoption. This makes the distinction even more important because a teacher does not want users (students) to not reach the educational content for lack of game-playing skills.

    --
    Forgive my spelling from time to time. I'm often posting during short breaks.
  55. The Most Important Subject of Educational Games by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The most important thing to teach 8-12 year olds, more important than reading, writing, and 'rithmetic, is how to not have babies. We're going on 7 billion people with 3 people being added every second (taking in to account deaths; there are actually more births per second than that). Our resource consumption is edging out other animal species and melting the ice caps. Barbie's Horse Adventures should have an entire section on how horses are better than boys. Carmen Sandiego should be sure to visit pharmacies of all nations and explore the birth control options in each one. Wii Fit should teach lots of body positions where copulation isn't physically possible. Dungeon Maker 2000 should... well, Dungeon Maker 2000 is fine as it is. Guys staying indoors all summer long working out optimal orc placement in dungeons aren't going to be making any babies.

  56. Games That Children Play by SloppyElvis · · Score: 1

    I suggest you ask some children in your target audience what games they like to play (not strictly video games, all games). You might also take a walk down to the toy store and see what's there. Here are a few timeless examples that translate well in the video game medium:

    • Dolls / House / Pretend / Stuffed Animals (The Sims, Webkinz, Nintendogs)
    • Tag, Cops and Robbers, kill-the-guy-with-the-ball (FPS & Action genres)
    • GI Joe, Transformers, Pokemon, Bakugan (WOW & fantasy)
    • Blocks / Trains / Legos / Sandbox (Civilization, RTS)
    • Sports (should be obvious)
    • Kick The Can / Ghost in the Graveyard (stealth)
    • Puzzles / Mysteries / Riddles (another obvious one)
    • Coloring / Painting / Singing / Play-Doh (art and music composition games)
    • Dancing (rhythm games)
    • Stories / Reading (adventure)

    ...and all of these are of course more fun to play with friends and family.

    All of these activities have intrinsic educational value. For science, I suspect Puzzle games would perhaps best develop problem-solving, experimentation, and observational skills. Just remember to make it fun.

  57. Just say no by nixdroid · · Score: 1

    First, please find yourself a dictionary and look up the words "science" and "technology". They are not the same thing. (While you're at it look up the words "education" and "training".) Creating and playing electronic games is quite appealing to us technologists, but is in no sense science. And learning how to program is technical training, not education. Instead give them some copper wire, a couple of nails some wood and let them do some real science.

    --
    -- Consensus - 50% probability that the majority are wrong.
  58. My son is only 5 years old, but... by Ironica · · Score: 2, Interesting

    My oldest is still younger than your target group, but I can tell you a bit about what he finds entertaining and educational.

    First of all, he's pre-literate. Computer games have been a real motivator for his literacy and numeracy, though. While our generation's first sight words were things like dog, cat, boy, girl... he recognizes start, next, exit, off, on, and his own name, as well as our names (he started picking those up when we were all playing Peggle a whole lot, and we didn't want him playing under our names!).

    So, games that don't require a ton of literacy to play, but where it's going to be easier to do things if you can read prompts or buttons, can encourage sight-reading in younger kids. I wouldn't be surprised if instructions or useful background information that scrolls by at a slow speed might improve reading speed and accuracy in older kids.

    Numeracy has been an even bigger thing for our son, though. One day he was watching me play Bubble Spinner. He read off my score: "You have 83 points!" then I shot a ball and got three more points. "86!" I made another shot and got six points. "89-- er... 92 points!" he had intuitively assumed that 89 was next in the series, without being aware he was identifying a pattern or doing math. He can also read off five digit numbers correctly, and thanks to various iterations of Desktop Tower Defense, is learning how "money" works.

    So, you can teach a lot about math and numbers just by having a semi-complicated scoring system, such as one where you earn points that you can then spend on upgrades, which cost different amounts of money, have different ammunition requirements, can kill different numbers of creatures (or pop different numbers of balloons, or stun different numbers of monkeys, or whatever) per shot, and so on.

    The hardest part is to balance the relatively low tolerance for frustration that most kids have, with the need to be persistently engaging and somewhat challenging so they don't get bored. Something that you can have fun with at first, but can do MORE with as you learn more about it, is ideal.

    --
    Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
  59. Something like Professor Layton? by sesshomaru · · Score: 1
    --
    "MIT betrayed all of its basic principles."
  60. Talking From Experience by SmarkWoW · · Score: 1

    Speaking from experience in playing educational games. I'm currently a 19 year old male. My Father, being very tech oriented, bought me MANY educational PC games, I'll just list a few:

    JumpStart $X Grade by Knowledge Adventure (where $X is 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, though I lost interest after 4th)
    Super Solvers: Gizmos & Gadgets by The Learning Company

    JumpStart 3rd Grade and Gizmos & Gadgets were by far my favorite at the time. As a previous reply brought up, I also played Age of Empires 2: Gold Edition as a kid... I remember a specific campaign entitled "El Sid" where you go kill the Spanish King (if I recall). It was later brought up in an 11th grade history class.

    JumpStart was by far the best game, the general plot: A scientist owns this huge mansion built into a mountain. He has a bratty little girl. The scientist goes off to some convention, while hes away his daughter fails a history test so she decides to use her fathers time machine to alter history to match her test answers. She sends back various robotic inhabitants of the mansion back in time to alter various parts of history (IE instead an astronomer discovering that the Sun is the center of the Solar System, he discovers that Polly (the daughter) is the center of the solar system). You help the "head robot" to prevent Polly from altering time. You perform various puzzles around the mountain to get clues and charg up the time machine. Some include learning about art, cooking, doing multiplication, patterns (simon says), Hand-eye coordination (a moonlander type game), among MANY others.

    Gizmo's & Gadgets was also one of my favorite games. The Learning Company makes a huge amount of education games, Super Solvers, Midnight Madness, Reader Rabbit, etc. Basically in G&G a mad scientist owns a car construction shop right next to your car construction shop, and hes threatening to take you over. He decides to race you 20 times with 20 different vehicles (cars/planes/helicopters). You agree and he cheats by sending over a bunch of chimps (actual monkeys) to your shop to steal all your parts. Basically you have to go out to the warehouse, and get your parts back. Because of how its layed out you have to do various puzzles. For instance, weight balancing, electrical wiring (basic light bulb, switch, batteries, but does teach series/parallel), Energy, Force, Magnetics, Simple Machines, and Gears. Anyway, you get various parts back and build your car and race. If you lose you go back and make it better (different propellor, wheels, etc) until you win.

    Educational games can be fun. I'm speaking from experience. I liked G&G so much that I still have an ISO of it 10 years later. Sadly it wont run on any current operating sytems, someday I'll start up a W98se Virtual machine and play around with it. If you're looking for more research take a look at Borderbund, Knowledge Adventure, and The Learning Company.

    Thanks,
    Smark
    http://www.spectralcoding.com/

  61. Facts vs concepts by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

    I think you have to be clear as to whether you're teaching facts or concepts.

    For example, the World Traveler IQ Challenge

    seems largely fact-based. Where is X -- click on it -- get feedback -- improve at an incredible rate. But you're actually learning "concepts", because you build up a map rather than just "X is the capital of Y" etc. The map gives you an implicit understanding of geography, so you don't have to memorise a list to know all the countries neighbouring Eritrea, for example.

    Then there's Slime Forest Adventure. Again, it looks as though you're learning facts (Symbol X is sound Y), but you're actually making a deeper mental association as it's the quickest way.

    Or take Typing of the Dead. They don't tell you how to type, they make you do it. A few pointers, and then they rely on you tuning in to touch-typing because it's the most efficient way -- hence you need to do it to win.

    So if we're talking concepts, we can actually liberate ourselves from the old boring model of answer-a-question-to-get-to-the-next-stage because that's just facts, and facts are rarely the goal. If you look at Lunar Lander and its successors (particularly Thrust), you have to get an intuitive feel for momentum to win the game. Take this on to E-Motion, and you've got a game that is built around conservation of momentum and elastic forces. These games teach you the concept without you ever learning a single fact. These can be the basis for later learning -- once you've got a concept to hang it on, learning facts is easy, because you can picture it and thus understand it.

    The hard point is selling the notion to the sponsors. Sadly, too many people think education is all about facts....

    HAL.

    --
    Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
  62. scorched earth by Khashishi · · Score: 2, Interesting

    learn about projectile motion, angles, and parabolas..

  63. "Educational" just means you learn something. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All games are "educational" in the sense that they teach skills. However, many games teach skills that are not particularly useful outside of the game itself. The trick then is to find/design games which use real-world skills. The possibilities are rather endless. Flashcard teaching games, and oldies like Number Munchers are the most obvious types, but they are by no means the only types. Games with historically based plots, or real-world physics, or skills practice like Tux Type, or creative problem-solving games like The Incredible Machine, or logic games like Minesweeper can all be included in the category of "educational."

    In other words, the best way to decide what counts as an educational game is to decide what you wish to teach first, and then find or design games that make use of it. As long as it presents a difficult, but surmountable challenge, people will enjoy it.

  64. Instead of games... card decks by ghostis · · Score: 1

    Instead of focusing on games, you could expand the card decks available for free/OSS non-linear learning tools and help promote those tools.

    http://www.mnemosyne-proj.org/

    and

    http://web.mac.com/jrc/Genius/

    are ones I have used.

    --


    Computer Science is all about trying to find the right wrench to bang in the right screw. -T.Cumbo?
  65. Math MMORPG by Protocron · · Score: 1

    I have been thinking about a Math MMORPG that is based on educational learning. For instance:

    Mage: Level of Mage is based on Mathematic ability of the player. If you can answer a high level Algebra problem then you can cast that 7th level spell. Effectiveness could also be determined by how close the player was to the answer.

    Fighter: Thac0 is based on the historical knowledge of the user. "What year was the Battle of Hastings?"

    Thief: ThaC0 could be based on something like Art History and thieving abilities based on something like Philosophy.

    etc.

    I think it would be great if this could be done and hosted by a nonprofit organization to promote learning. The concept would take away the MMORPG process of grinding away at useless button clicks and would encourage learning something other than stupid game mechanics. And finally once someone understood the system, playing would be better for casual gamers.

    --
    CAPS LOCK: ITS LIKE THE CRUISE CONTROL FOR AWESOME
  66. All games by w0mprat · · Score: 1

    All games are educational. Why we find things 'fun' is fundamentaly linked to how the human mind learns and all the positive reinforcement it gives itself when it is accomplishing something and enhancing itself.

    --
    After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
  67. Open ended by Edward+Coffin · · Score: 1

    I recommend that you read Brain Rot by Theodore Grey and Jerry Glynn. Among other things, it discusses this very topic. The summary I took away from it is you should make the game open-ended, giving full freedom to the player to go down the wrong paths, rather than being led down the right path.

    Interesting snippets:

    Software should not be unnecessarily hard to use, but neither should it shy away from or disguise the inherent richness of the subject matter. It should be open-ended, deep, and capable of doing senseless things if asked.

    In a continuation of the above point, in a discussion of programs to teach geometry:
    If students decide to build a completely useless geometrical construction, the program won't stop them. It lets them discover for themselves that their construction is uninteresting. This is very important: By allowing freedom to go off in the wrong direction, the software is giving students the opportunity to learn.

  68. I learned from Sim City by ViennaSt · · Score: 1

    A game with both long term and short term goals is important. To keep a kid interested you need short term gratification, but obviously complex problem solving can't be done in 15 minutes. I thought that Sim City mix both well because with 15 minutes of play you can make some improvements, but you are always working towards a challenging goal that feels great when you complete it. And you are allowed to stop and come back to it letting you brainstorm while you are off the computer on how to expand and improve your city/people. Also, if you make a mistake, you can see the effects but you don't necessarily have to start from scratch. Overtime, you get better at planning and thinking out your decisions. You use trial and error then you start to predict (accurately) what might happen if you put something in place based off previous experience. This is applicable to real life. With little puzzle games you only get the instant gratification of solving something right away and you don't utilize your long term planning skills. Also, you learn how to control and manipulate multiple variables - a key for scientific inquiry latter on.

    --
    "Engineering. Where the noble, semi-skilled laborers execute the vision of those who think and dream." -Sheldon
  69. Great resource on the subject by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    An old prof of mine who spoke with authority and much enthusiasm regarding the subject of education and games recently produced a series of podcasts on that subject:
    http://www.hippasus.com/rrpweblog/

  70. Play Rocky's Boots by Warren Robinett by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

    Play Rocky's Boots by Warren Robinett. The almost-perfect educational game. (I had it on Commodore 64, but I believe there's a Apple II image downloadable from this site: http://www.warrenrobinett.com/rockysboots/ )

  71. The "Educational Game Market" is flooded... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It really is flooded, you just have to take a harder look at what is already out there.

    I'm 25 years old, male, and an avid gamer. From my own experience this is what I've built:

    1.) Colonization, Civilization 1-4, Rise of Nations, and Age of Empires:
    I learned more history from these games than I did from my history classes when I was in school. Half of that is because I was more interested in the game than I was in class, and the other half is because it is a much more interactive and "in your face" approach. Besides the history I learned, I also learned about resource management, pursuing goals, and the strengthened my ability to adapt to unexpected and difficult situations.

    2.) Fast forward to MMOs. Ultima Online, Shadowbane, WoW, EVE Online:
    These games are great teachers of personality recognition and prediction in others. They're also great for teaching leadership skills, money management, how to navigate in a competitive market, interviewing and job (guild) application skills, and teamwork skills. I know that a lot of people would laugh at this... but after organizing and leading groups of 25-40 people around 3 times/week to complete very specific and challenging tasks, I feel that my leadership abilities as a whole are ten times as strong as they were 3 years ago. I've had to make people who don't like each other cooperate for a common goal. I've had to conduct interviews and evaluate the abilities of a team member. I've had to budget resources. I've had to work with a committee of individuals to set policies... and I've had to do it all internationally with a group of people that represents 5 different languages and their primary spoken. I haven't experienced anything else outside of MMOs and actual "real life" business that builds these skills so effectively.

    I know that your goal is to make a game that educates subconsciously... but I think that the market is already pretty booming for games that meet that criteria.

    1. Re:The "Educational Game Market" is flooded... by FishWithAHammer · · Score: 0, Troll

      Civ games and, especially, Colonization (still among my favorite games ever) are effective teaching games because whenever you hit F1, you get a bit of historically-relevant fluff text as well as the help text. Most people will read it just out of curiosity.

      --
      "You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
  72. Re:Carmen Sandiego: Balanced Education and Gamepla by Ironsides · · Score: 1

    To add, Also look at Super Solvers, Number Muncher, Operation Neptune, others. Hell, just go see this company.

    --
    Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
  73. The thing about educational games are... by Mr.Toy · · Score: 1

    The thing about educational games are that alot of people dismiss them simply because they are educational. I'd say that the focus should not be about the game being educational in itself, but rather making people more interested in educational topics. There is no real need to "trick" them into learning things they should be learning in class, i would rather say that it is their motivation to study hard in class that needs to be raised rather than directly teaching.

  74. Civ 4 re-enacting history / battles... etc by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

    ... would be a great idea. I've often thought the problem isn't "educational games" it's TAKING AN EXISTING GAME adding educational elements and just let the kids play the f'n game and get out of their way.

    You can't have a game that isn't fun to play, if you make educational "game" that isn't fun or addictive to play it's pointless because the whole point of education is practice and re-enforcement of the things you want the students to learn.

    I think the whole culture of school has done a lot ot kill curiousity in kids and school is just seen as another form of work which kids hate and can't wait to get out of because their curiousity is killed because of the lack of autonomy.

    I remember taking ancient history class and remembering a crapload of stuff from civ that was useless because all the games of civ I had played was not meant to reinforce events in hitsory. Now imagine if you took history and made a fun game out of it, you wouldn't even have to make everything exactly like hitsory but use the game to re-enforce your rememberance of key events and whatnot.

    I think a game like Empire Total war modified or Civ would be a good start at creating "Educational" games. Since you want to force a education into a "game" and then not have the game be attractive for students to play at all.

  75. Edutainment games by Lord+Satri · · Score: 1

    You can ask Wikipedia too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serious_game ... there's even Games With A Purpose, and some others are surprisingly interesting (depending on our age and interests, of course): http://www.stopdisastersgame.org/ and UN's http://www.food-force.com/

    Have fun... and learn!

  76. A reall good EDUCATIONAL game is... by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

    ... Immune attack

    http://fas.org/immuneattack/download

    THIS game if it was made in higher definition would be fantastic, I remember being intrigued while playing this game and thinking what would happen if you got professional game developers making stuff like this.

    There's nothing quite like moving around your immune system and zapping bugs that really reenforced remembering stuff.

  77. Number Munchers by Singularitarian2048 · · Score: 1

    Number Munchers was a great game that truly made you better at arithmetic in a practical way. I'd like to see a modern, 3D Number Munchers where you can level up, earn badges for achievements, unlock levels, and compete online.

    Alcumus at artofproblemsolving.com is an innovative learning tool that is almost a game.

    I'd like to see an RPG where the lead is a hacker, and the player must literally write programs that work in order to pass parts of the game. There is already a website for contest programming with a robot judge that tests the validity of programs students have submitted. This just needs to be incorporated into a game.

    Don't water down the educational content. It doesn't have to be as fun as a normal video game. Aim for the students who want to learn. If a teacher makes you play an educational game in school, that is still a lot more fun than most classroom activities.

    There is huge potential for educational games to revolutionize education, along with video lectures and other internet content.

  78. Base it on Dreambox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Check out www.dreambox.com, educational math site for kids.

    My 6-year old daughter loved it: she found the games fun.

    As a parent, I loved it:
    -the site provided excellent information to parents to indicate specifically what the educational goals were in concrete terms and what your child had achieved so far
    -the activities were clearly well matched to the educational goals

    If anyone can do a site as effective for science as Dreambox is for math, it would be wonderful.

  79. Nearly every game is educational by PersonaNonAppello · · Score: 1

    Nearly every game is educational. On release day its US$60 and two months later it is 25-50% less. It's a lesson on early adoption, collecting the 'willingness to pay" amount, ... ;-)

  80. I wrote an educational game... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wrote an educational game to get accepted at a school a few months ago, here is a video (it's a math game):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oaho6q5vIW4

    While this is only a small demo to prove that I can program, it _does_ show how educational games can be made fun (at least, I think it's more fun than any other math fighting game I've ever played :p). I think what's wrong with educational games today is that they are percieved as educational first and game second, you have to make the player see the game as a game, and not think too much about being educated.

    I eventually want to fully design and implement the idea some time in the future.

  81. Aliens and problems by lowflying · · Score: 1

    At least, that was what worked in Alien Rescue http://alienrescue.edb.utexas.edu/, a problem based learning game.

  82. Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...here's an interesting rant from one of the guys behind Mathematica.

  83. You should be a game developer by dannybuntu · · Score: 1

    Something tells me that you should be a game developer.

  84. Crayon Physics Deluxe, and Phun by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Crayon Physics Deluxe or a similar one (albeit more a simulator than a game) named Phun

  85. GTA SA by tritonman · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Learn about the real world.

    1. Re:GTA SA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WTF do you mean OFF TOPIC?????

  86. Quarky and Quaysoo's Turbo Science by Dwedit · · Score: 1

    You want a shining example of a really good educational game? Try Quarky and Quaysoo's Turbo Science, a 1992 MS-DOS game published by Sierra designed to teach scientific concepts to children. Lots of sweet cartoon animation, and stealthfully educational.

  87. Traits of a good educational game by Trerro · · Score: 1

    1. The game minus the educational part should still be a solid game.

    Imagine if I took Oregon Trail, but the game was about a colony on another planet running low on a vital resource on the other side of the planet. You choose your profession which determined starting stats, abilities, etc, and packed up a vehicle to drive to the other side... in other words, gameplay exactly the same as OT, but different setting and everything renamed. What's left is a sim with a survival goal, and a strong focus on resource management and random events. It would work just fine as a game on its own.

    What if Number Munchers used colored dots on the squares instead of math problems, with each level displaying a list of colors you could or couldn't eat? It'd still be a game about choosing targets carefully and quickly while dodging various monster types.

    If the player can't enjoy the game AS A GAME, then no one will stick with it long enough to actually learn anything.

    2. Learning should be part of the game, not hastily tacked on.

    Sure, you're looking up geography info in Carmen Sandiego, but what you're really doing as a player is following a trail of clues. In time, you'll actually learn stuff about various countries simply because it's part of the game.

    There's a flash game called Super Energy Apocalypse. It's an defense RTS with zombies - they attack every night, and you build towers to gun them down. Of course, your base needs power to operate, and like many RTSes, you get this by building power plants. However, instead of just the generic plant, it has various types of actual power plants. For instance, you can build solar panels pretty cheaply, but they don't function at night. This can help you supply research operations during the day and store some energy, but try to rely fully on it and your base runs out of power at night you can get eaten by zombies. Oil plants are extremely reliable, but they pollute heavily, and that makes the zombies stronger. Etc. You have to come up with a power generation scheme that works - and true to life, you can't avoid polluting entirely on many maps, so you have to try to minimize it instead. Result: The player actually walks away with a decent understanding of alternative power sources and their strengths and weaknesses... but he's not taking a class, he's just figuring out how to kill zombies more efficiently. :)

    There was a game where you run a lemonade stand and try to make as much money as possible in 30 days. The game is designed to teach you the basics of business - supply and demand, reacting to changing market conditions, long term planning to capitalize on unplanned good conditions and survive unplanned bad ones, etc. You'll never see any of that terminology though - you're just running your stand, making more stuff on hotter days, buying materials when prices are low, being wary of the occasional thunderstorm making you sell nothing, etc. You just try to figure out a strategy to land on a high score list, but ultimately, you're picking up the basics of business in the process.

    3. The game needs replay value. Oregon trail has you trying out different professions and starting conditions, Carmen Sandiego has you working up the ranks of a detective agency, etc. This in turn means the player keeps coming back and getting more knowledge (Carmen Sandiego) or further improving a skill (Word/Number Munchers).

    4. There needs to be an actual challenge. The crook can get away (Carmen Sandiego), you get eaten (Number Munchers), your base is overrun by zombies (Super Energy Apocalypse). To move on in the game, you have to actually learn something AND actually get better at the game.

    5. At ALL times, it plays like a game, not a class. The lesson MUST be part of the game, forcing a player to read stuff that he isn't going to use IN the game results in skipped text or the player simply walking away.

  88. Re:Science by MavenW · · Score: 1

    Another game that fits into the category of "Educational but you might not know it" was Starcon2. I was interacting with a young man once and I mentioned something about Enceladus. He stopped what he was doing, gave me a strange look, and asked "Do you play Starcon?" I was a bit confused and said, "No. That's one of the moons of Saturn." He was amazed. He thought someone had made up all the moons of the planets for a fictional game, where in reality they had used actual existing Astronomy facts for their game.

    He had played the game quite a bit, and knew many of the moons of the planets in our solar system, as well as many stars and constellations, and he didn't even know they were real! He was learning real Science by accident.

    The game doesn't concentrate on teaching you such things, but you need minerals on several of these moons to build up your spaceship. Then you need to travel to some constellations or named stars in order to make contact with different alien races.

    I have thought about the huge amount of information that you learn playing games like World of Warcraft or Everquest. I played for several months, and learned vast amounts of information about History, Geography, Politics, even Science of a fictional place. That could have been more valuable if it had been even a little bit patterned after real places in the History of Earth. Imagine, instead of Crossing the continent of Antonica going through the pass of Highhold Keeep heading for Qeynos, if you could cross Europe going through the Alps heading for Shanghai. Or instead of raiding the Plane of Fear, if you could go visit Old Japan, or Medieval Europe, and actually talk to real historical figures and do actual historical quests. Do a quest for Hannibal that has to do with feeding his elephants. Do a quest for Maria Antoinette that has to do with eating cake in instead of bread. Instead of filling your brain with fictional people and events, you could be learning real History.

    There are scenarios of Civ2 that have simulated real Earth maps with actual real cities on them. You can learn some real Geography very easily. And some History as well if they're set up that way. Something as simple as using Constantinople instead of Istanbul or Gaul instead of France teaches older versions of Geography.

    There are some serious possibilities here.

  89. Alot of Educational Games by Swuave · · Score: 1

    I found a lot of education games at http://www.gamestreamer.com/ They have lots of different types of games that I get from there, but I torture my kids with the educational ones.

  90. Educational games are too shallow. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As a teacher, I must say that educational games have about as much value as educational videos. Which is little to none. They take up a lot of time, but students get no real value from using them. Take any student who spends an hour watching a video about China. At best, the student may remember one or two names, maybe a city and perhaps a random event. Is that educational? I really don't think so. Especially not for a one or two hour investment in time.

    Educational games have the same problem. They take up a lot of time (great for classroom management I suppose) but really provide nothing overtly educational. That same student can learn a few things about WWII by watching Spielberg's movie "1941". But it's hard to call that educational.

    And for the record, I consider text books to be as worthless as videos and educational games.