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Apple Working On Tech To Detect Purchasers' "Abuse"
Toe, The writes "Apple has submitted a patent application for technologies which would detect device-abuse by consumers. The intent presumably being to aid in determining the validity of warranty claims. 'Consumer abuse events' would be recorded by liquid and thermal sensors detecting extreme environmental exposures, a shock sensor detecting drops or other impacts, and a continuity sensor to detect jailbreaking or other tampering. The article also notes that liquid submersion detectors are already deployed in MacBook Pros, iPhones and iPods. It does seem reasonable that a corporation would wish to protect itself from fraudulent warranty claims; however the idea of sensors inside your portable devices detecting what you do with them might raise eyebrows even beyond the tinfoil-hat community."
Well I guess this could make sense, I know people that really abuse the vendors by returning products that have been used in non-warranty covered conditions and I have always known that I am indirectly paying for them when I buy a new product.
> however the idea of sensors inside your portable devices detecting
> what you do with them might raise eyebrows even beyond
> the tinfoil-hat community.
The line is thin, but I guess if different agencies or companies want to spy on people, they won't tell us in advance anyway.
Problems could arise in case the "abuse detection" device malfunctions and falsely report abuse by the consumer.
As stated in TFA this is already done anyway, I don't see public pressure stopping this.
Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
... as the abused get smarter, the abusers also get smarter at an equal or quicker pace.
Please patent it, Apple. Then I can buy my cell phone from someone else and know that this technology isn't included.
Simple devices offer ways to tell if a package has been dropped or turned upside down, but how do they prove that the event didn't happen before the device was in the hands of the customer. If they tell people to check them when the receive the device, then people are more likely to try to defeat them.
All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
They can include whatever sensors they want. And I can buy whatever I want. There's no way I'll buy a smartphone that doesn't allow me to install software of my choice. This walled-garden crap is making me look to the HTC Hero, or whatever new Android phone is on the horizon.
recorded by liquid and thermal sensors
I can get those already. Common in the shipping industry.
detecting extreme environmental exposures
How is this different than a thermal sensor? Common in the shipping industry, but not everywhere depending on the environmental element they are testing for.
a shock sensor detecting drops or other impacts
I can slap one of those inside any old box now. Apple puts it inside a laptop and it's a patent?
and a continuity sensor to detect jailbreaking or other tampering
Now, this *really* has been done. Permanent adhesives on a holographic label? Anyone? anyone?
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
Those "submersion detectors" it work really well, right up until the local weather calls for 100% relative humidity. I've seen RIM deny multiple replacement requests due to triggered sensors.
Apple would probably make money in the end through decreased support costs, but all the same I'd be a lot less inclined to get AppleCare if I felt that there was a significant risk of wear-and-tear getting interpreted by this sensor as "abuse."
"That's not what Apple thought, they are just allowing you to use it, as long as you give them money and don't use it in any way that they disapprove of." ... if you want to make a warranty claim.
It must be worth it, but it seems that it's a rare bit of abuse that hurts the internals but leaves the exterior shell and windows etc on the product free of teltale signs. That would rule out:
High-G impacts - which require a hard surface to stop the motion of the unit very quickly. This would leave a tell-tale blemish on the case.
Imersion in liquids - This would leave dried residue unless it's immersed in de-ionized water or other pure substance that wouldn't leave any residue. With no residue, the unit may not be damaged when it dries out.
Jailbreaking sensor - BINGO! This is the real money maker.
The only reason to include these things is to improve product reliability (nope), customer satisfaction (nope), profit (yup). And I don't see a whole lot of profit increase in anything but preventing jailbreaking.
Sheldon
Normally, shock sensors like this are placed on the outside of shipping crates or pallets. If I am going to shell out money for equipment that can tattle on me with hidden sensors, I will have to have them open the device and prove that none of the tattle-markers are already spoiled.
[
Apple gets forgiven for everything, but if Microsoft even hinted of this they'd get flamed.
Had Apple won the PC wars of the 80's they'd be a far greater satan than Microsoft ever tried to be.
Corporatism != Free Market
I can see the economic rationale for going this route but the "hip & cool" aspect of Apple stuff is going to be diminished by it. I want innovation and technical progress that lowers the price, increases the functionality, is ergonomic and looks cool as hell. It is for that reason I buy Apple products. This crap on the other hand doesn't help me that much if at all. It might lower the price a few pennies but it'll make it that much harder to make a warranty claim too and so there goes a big chunk of good will down the tubes. I hope the few pennies they save with this equals what stand to lose. Sheesh.
"If you want to know what happens to you when you die, go look at some dead stuff."
The biggest problem I see with this is that these sensors won't be 100% accurate. Very few things in this world are.
But manufacturers will almost certainly treat them as if they are.
So let's say you have a faulty moisture sensor in your laptop and the laptop fails through no fault of your own - it goes back and you get a rude email a week later saying "You let it get wet. Go away."
Obviously you can take the "sue the bastards" approach, but let's be real here, they're going to stand up in court and say "There is a moisture sensor in this unit which was triggered, therefore it got wet". How do you prove that in your case the moisture sensor was faulty without spending a small fortune?
Is it just me, or is Apple more Evil than Microsoft these days?
+1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
Customer> I'd like to return my powerbook. It keeps overheating, I think the fan stopped working and burned itself out
Apple> Let's take a look.... I'm sorry, your warranty has been voided
Customer> Why?
Apple> Our sensors show you've subjected your powerbook to extreme temperatures outside of those covered by our warranty.
I am the richest astronaut ever to win the superbowl.
I'm getting tired of this. As an aged millionaire I have few pleasures in life other than making toboggans out of top of the line macbook pros. I don't need apple telling me what I can and can't do with my property. I'd sue them, but I'm also eccentric and don't have a phone to call a lawyer.
Just stay out of my damn business Apple!
Jailbreaking sensor - BINGO! This is the real money maker.
The only reason to include these things is to improve product reliability (nope), customer satisfaction (nope), profit (yup). And I don't see a whole lot of profit increase in anything but preventing jailbreaking.
No, the summary is wrong (as usual). The tamper detection circuitry is for physical tampering - adding or remove chips, etc. Software jailbreaking won't trip it.
If they are actual sensors (like a thermometer) and not just sensors that detect if you have gone past a threshold they should allow developers to use the info that they gather. Cause it would be kinda cool to have a thermometer and a moister sensor app.
When my headphone jack started failing I investigated the issue on-line. I found several similar cases on line and thought this would be a breeze to get fixed on my warranty. It was a well known issue with the sensor inside the iPhone detecting whether the headphone was plugged in. So I sent in the phone for repairs but apparently the water sensor on the docking connector was slightly "not white" (translated: they believe that the water sensor is triggered) thus rendering the warranty void. The repair service log showed me that the repairman used less than 2 seconds deciding that my warranty was void, even though the phone was working perfectly - except for this error with the headphone jack. This "2 second job" gave 3 alternatives for me online: 1) scrap the phone, price: free 2) return the phone unrepaired, £70 service fee 3) repair phone (new phone £550) I chose alternative 2, it was the only real option for me. Adding more sensors/detectors is probably great for Apple. But they need to inform and disclose this in their user manuals, clearly visibly in your warranty. I didn't find out about the water sensors until after it was repaired. The problem with these sensors is if they are triggered without you doing anything wrong to the phone, and this mean that if a sensor is triggered and you get a hardware error not at all related to the sensor being triggered you will not be able to have your device fixed because the warranty is void. Another important aspect is that any sensor could also be triggered BEFORE you even open the box. WTH are you supposed to do if the phone is pre-broken. How can you check your sensors is not triggered?
I'm skeptical their products would get any cheaper no matter how much money they save. People have shown how much they're willing to pay, why charge less?
"Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
It won't lower the price. That is set by external market forces--supply and demand. The company's goal is then to minimize their costs to improve their margins. This will get them a few extra pennies of profit. You, as a consumer, will only see a benefit if you happen to be an Apple stock-holder.
I don't work for Apple, but the company I do work for also has manufactured laptops in the past. Not so long ago I took a call from an individual that wanted to complain that his unit was now under warranty, and a third repair would not be covered. He'd already had the motherboard and hard drive repaired under warranty. The kicker is that *all* of the problems started only after he dropped the unit off a table, which "would never cause this kind of problem!". So at the time I took the call, he had already received free repairs twice by lying about damage he caused, and then had the audacity to complain about not receiving further repairs for failures resulting from the same drop incident, and threatening never to buy products from the company again because of it. There's nothing you can do about bad word-of-mouth negative advertising from an idiot like that, but Apple's plan may at least prevent wasting money on unwarranted repairs that a parasitic individual lied about.
There is no -1 Disagree mod. Slashdot.org/faq defines mod options. USE IT.
... wait until the Face Crime app is part of the standard install. That will bake your noodle.
Pretty much unless you live in the American Southwest or the Sahara (or a similar extremely dry enviroment), there is significant risk.
Even moderate climates such as upstate New York have enough humidity in the summer to indicate a false positive on the LIS after a year or two - it happened to a friend with her Samsung phone. Never submerged, but the LIS was red anyway.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Don't buy Apple products?
I'm a bit surprised at the negativity towards Apple, lately. Every day for weeks, there seems to be a story about how Apple is screwing its customers or developers. That's fine; I really don't like them or their products. But I wonder if there is now a buzz-driven backlash against the company?
I suppose that a company that lives on trendiness, is particularly vulnerable to trends, as well. I would have thought that corporate management at apple would understand that the moment Apple begins being viewed as 'corporate' by American hopsters, their rapid ascension would come to a screeching halt. They need to loosen up a bit... or at least SEEM to loosen up. I know they won't ever open up their hardware, but they need to do something to stop the flood of stories portraying Apple as a vicious, tyrannical censorer of applications and information. The easiest way would be to STOP being a vicious, tyrannical censorer of applications and information.
however the idea of sensors inside your portable devices detecting what you do with them might raise eyebrows even beyond the tinfoil-hat community.
IMHO, as long as devices don't "phone home" and the data is kept in the device until the *owner* submits it for warranty repairs there is no foul. If we get lower prices (or a delay in a price increases) and/or longer warranties then the tradeoff seems reasonable. Of course I'm biased, I worked in tech support long ago and I am a bit familiar with the -- hmm how shall I put this -- the "opportunistic" nature of a non-trivial number of consumers. :-) To be fair I think that owners should be able to see the current sensor logs, Settings | General | About on an iPhone for example, if for no other reason than to verify the devices state at the time of purchase. While in a manufacturing facility I've seen s person spill a box of hard drives onto the floor and perform a couple of did-anyone-see-that head swivels as they picked up the drives.
Conveniently, they are replaceable(no endorsement of that particular vendor is implied.)
Makes me wonder how long it'll be before somebody gets brought up on the consumer electronics equivalent of insurance fraud charges for using one of those...
If Apple or any other company uses this technology against their customers, I predict many phone batteries will "catch fire". It can't be too hard to make a Lithium-Ion battery go up in flames. Hell, it seems to be hard to PREVENT them from exploding.
So instead of hair-drying a wet phone, customers will cause the battery to go nuclear and then take the smoldering mess to the store demanding a replacement.
Short of building the sensors into an airplane black-box type device (which might hurt the phone's portability a bit) it is unlikely any of these sensors would survive a fire.
I had a Motorola Q that started smoking one day while it was charging. The battery was so hot, I couldn't hold it for more than a few seconds. The case started melting, and I'm sure if I hadn't been there, it would have caught fire.
The Verizon guy replaced the phone, no hassle, no questions.
-ted
I provide AppleCare service and normal wear-and-tear don't even catch my attention. I don't kick a repair for scuffs, scratches, dents, or dings. But I've been brought:
--A MacBook that was "dropped a little." The hard drive had impacted so hard that you can hear the parts rattling around in it (I still have it);
--An iMac (Aluminum) with display problems. I opened it, found evidence of a liquid spill, and the customer's daughter confessed that her boyfriend threw a beer at it;
--A MacBook whose "case had cracked"... someone to remove the top case without referring to a manual and ripped the bottom case from its fasteners on the frame;
--A wireless keyboard that "wouldn't work." Turned it in for testing and, as it heated, water came oozing out of the battery bay.
All these people expected these incidents to be covered under the AppleCare warranty. If I'm brought a machine that isn't working due to a defect in manufacturing or the failure of an Apple- covered part, I'll do everything that needs to be done to get it fixed and the customer doesn't pay a dime (but if you've installed third-party drives or memory to which a problem is attributable, tough luck, Chuck).
But if it's drowned, dropped, or ripped apart, Apple is under no obligation to pay for user carelessness. Period.
3 paragraphs into the article, loading the 4th page view I gave up. Can't say as I've seen a site try and jam more ads into one page than that place, a top banner, both sides, and a failing bottom banner as well. I will say this as a support tech, apple is good, I don't like the hardware personally but you work with what the paying customer has and wants, but I've never had issues with Dell either, maybe it is being a partner instead of a general public caller that makes the difference. My experience with Gateway however has never been good, they are ridiculous about parts and shipping.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
(but if you've installed third-party drives or memory to which a problem is attributable, tough luck, Chuck).
Do you use the Nintendo policy of "if it's there it's at fault" or do you actually check if it was at fault?
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Competition.
If your product costs (including warranty fulfillment) are lower than your competitor's, you can sell at a lower price while still maintaining profitability. This means that you can underprice your competitors, thus getting a larger market share == more sales == more profit.
Keep in mind that in the long term, for an ideal free market, sale price approaches marginal production cost.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
Conveniently, a fresh one looks very similar to the shinyness of generic sticker material or white nail polish or white out depending on the surface texture.
Just a thought.
You're probably right, but the money saved won't go to waste. It will probably materialize as an extra $1/hour for some lucky engineers or managers, or extra health benefits. That's one of the advantages of competition over government - the constant pressure to reduce costs and thereby inprove efficiency which benefits not just that company, but also society as a whole.
My only concern is that these sensors might be abused.
For example I have some Lights of America CFLs that died after only one year of use. If these sensors were inside the base, I could easily imagine the LoA company refusing to replace the bulbs because "you had them in a hot area" even though I did not. Yes they died of excesive heat, but I used them in a prescribed manner - in my dining room. They died due to manaufacturer error not user error, but I can easily foresee the manufacturer blaming the user anyway.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
I ran into an issue with this as well. I lost a 500$ smart phone because they wouldn't replace it. At the time I worked for a beer distributor, which meant constantly going in and out of coolers all day. Condensation formed inside the phone because it wasn't sealed, and set off all of the water-spill stickers. However, the phone worked fine. It wasn't until the earpiece eventually failed because of poor soldering that I had to take it in. Then they wouldn't repair it. I can only imagine that going in and out of air conditioned environments would also wreak havoc on such systems.
It's also not a commodity, which makes a big difference. Direct competition is impossible due to copyright, hardware and software patents, etc.
But even with loose competition, it could make a difference to price, depending on the cost savings, unit price, unit sales, etc.
Consider this example:
A: Cost to produce $WIDGET is $900. Cost of warranty service is $100/unit. Total cost here is $1000.
B: Now reduce cost of warranty service to $25/unit, but increase production cost to $905/unit. Total cost is now $930/unit.
Now, let's make an arbitrary demand curve, with price points at ($1500, 1000) and ($1450, 1100) [axes are price and unit sales).
For A, total profit is $495,000 when selling at $1450, and $500,000 when selling at $1500. So the seller will price at $1500.
For B, total profit is $570,000 at price of $1500, but $572,000 at a price of $1450. So the seller will price at $1450.
Note that if the new unit cost is now $950, the seller is still better off selling at $1500... the change in total profit is dependent on the shape of the demand curve (the price-sales relationship), the change in cost, and the price.
I'm making up the figures, of course... but even for a company like Apple, with a very strange demand curve that may be somewhat inelastic wrt price, there are price points where Apple will make more money if they can reduce both their costs and their prices. It's not so simple as I've described, but even for Apple, who has pricing experts on their staff (or as contractors), there are places where reduced unit costs result in greater profitability at a lower price.
As for strategy, minimizing MSRP doesn't always yield maximum prices. All the marketing, branding, advertising, etc, is to change the shape of the demand curve so that Apple will sell more units in addition to the price impact on units sold. Even with all that stuff, if Apple can raise unit profits by lowering prices (without long-term negative impact), they'll do it. Lowering unit costs is one way they can increase profits at lower price points depending on the shape of the demand curve.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
What you are missing is that Apple is not selling steak, it's selling sizzle. When you can walk into an Apple Store and all you see are monitors, with wires running into holes in the counter where the mysterious computers are hidden, you begin to understand that the standard Apple consumer has no idea what a computer is beyond some kind of fancy interactive TV set.
Hic iacet Arthurus, rex quondam rexque futurus.
The Story:
Was at shooting range teaching a friend to "bump fire" a rifle. Technically it's not allowed in competitive shooting, but we all do it from time to time. (Not going to explain it, watch YouTube.)
There was a kid down a few lanes from us who was watching and listening. Well he didn't have such a great hold on his rifle and when it started going off like a full auto he freaked and turned. I got a 5.56mm round from an AR-15 to the wrist as a result and both he and his father got banned from the range. I'm surprised I didn't.
The watch face shattered and I got this NASTY bruise on my arm and a small cut where the wrist band broke, but no damage that cussing didn't make better. i sent in the parts of the watch that I could find and a polaroid of my arm telling them how happy I was that they made strong watches. Never asked for a replacement as I fully intended on buying a new one soon anyways. (The origional was scratched badly by that point after serving in the army with me.) within a week I had a box on my doorstep with the origional, a new watch, and a letter stating that they thought I should keep the origional as a keepsake but that I couldn't turn it in again for another free watch because it's serial number had been written down.
--Forest C. Adcock--
I'm not missing that. All of Apple's marketing and branding has changed the shape of the demand curves for their products. That's a function of their marketing success, and the gullibility of potential buyers. That does not mean that economics does not apply.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
In a simplified world without brand names (luxery goods whose selling point is exclusivity), with infinte access to infinitly patient capital (otherwise many businesses cannot be started), without any fixed costs (otherwise selling units at marginal production cost is a money loser... and this implies no recouping/paying off of startup costs, hence no startup loans either, which means see point two), intellectual property protection (without which good luck getting R and D funding), perfectly rational actors, etc.
Your ad here. Ask me how!
Oh man, I have some similar stories from the bench...
-Some bozo with his daughter and a cracked Macbook screen. She swore up and down that it "just happened" and her daddy refused to believe his precious snowflake would lie.
-A guy who left his Macbook in the back of his truck. It opened up and broke in half thanks to other heavy items and some rough road. Literally. The screen was smashed and snapped off the body. He was surprised that Applecare wouldn't cover it.
-A Macbook Pro that was just flat-out disgusting. Grime, crud, scratches, dents, and more. The screen was having issues, possibly because of an alarmingly large dent in the back. The keyboard reeked of coffee. Yeah, there was no coverage on that one.
-A Macbook Pro with several keys popped halfway off, which isn't entirely unusual, but they keys had chipped edges, which is. The bottom was bent upward right around the optical drive, and pretty noticeably, too. Problem: The keyboard and DVD drive don't work. Gee, I wonder why?
-A woman with an iBook G3 (about 7 years old at the time) that had died. She was incredulous that Apple wouldn't cover it, I kid you not. I told her to take it up with Apple because I didn't want to deal with that crap.
-An iMac that was absolutely FILLED with cigarette ash, nicotine stains, and other assorted grime. It was truly disgusting and reeked like ass. It most likely overheated and roasted itself. Turns out that Apple classifies that as abuse and the guy was out of luck. Don't smoke like a chimney around your computer.
I don't have any stories as dramatic as those with people trying to filch Apple, but man, you deal with some real tards in this business.
Yet another run-around the consumer so that they can sell products with a "warranty" then fail to live up to it.
Scenario: 1 month into having my iPod, It suffers a light drop to the floor from the couch. Nothing is wrong with it - but the "drop sensor" records it as exceeding the impact tolerance. 6 months later, the battery fries itself and no longer works. I mail it back - guess what? WARRANTY DENIED for a totally unrelated occurrence.
Most economic theory assumes people in the marketplace are rational.
With Apple customers, that assumption, and the economic theory that depends on it, goes out the window!
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
How?
When a mac fanboy's ipod dies and cant get it fixed under warranty they'll go out and buy another ipod. The fanboy wont even consider alternate devices like an iriver nor even think about considering that Apple products have a high rate of failure.
Apple does not do this. It's difficult for a mac fan to see but they are well and truly behind the bell curve with technology.
This is what Apple sells, the image. This is why fanboys will keep buying Apple no matter what abuses it requires the user to undergo.
No it wont. Apple products are made with the same off the shelf components as Dell, they are made in similar factories to Dell. Apple could already sell their products at a far lower cost, seeing as they don't suffer the windows tax they could undercut Dell. The simple fact is by buying Apple you've already proven that you're willing to overpay.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Or just tell them you lost it, even if you haven't dropped it in water or lost it. And then do it again once you get the new one. Repeat ad nauseam. Profit. (Did I miss a step?)
I pwn this comment. "The Fine Print" says so.
... making the products more durable, rather than adding the "fuck you" sensors?
Apple Inc. is one evil bastardization of a once great company.
8==8 Bones 8==8
Do you use the Nintendo policy of "if it's there it's at fault" or do you actually check if it was at fault?
I'd be stupid not to check. I always ask if any modifications have been made to the machine. If the original parts are available, I swap them in and test. If you don't have the original parts, you're out of luck. If you do have them and the original parts work, you're out of luck. If the machine doesn't work with the original parts replaced, then the problem is attributable to something else and is covered.
As Apple's representative to the customer, I owe the company and the customer my best effort