Slashdot Mirror
US Life Expectancy May Have Peaked
Hugh Pickens writes "Live Science reports that although life expectancy in the United States has risen to an all-time high of 77.9 years in 2007 up from 77.7 in 2006, gains in life expectancy may be pretty much over, as some groups — particularly people in rural locations are already stagnating or slipping in contrast to all other industrialized nations. Hardest hit are regions in the Deep South, along the Mississippi River, in Appalachia and also the southern part of the Midwest reaching into Texas. The culprits — largely preventable with better diet and access to medical services — are diabetes, cancers and heart disease caused by smoking, high blood pressure and obesity. What the new analysis reveals is the reality of two Americas, one on par with most of Europe and parts of Asia, and another no different than a third-world nation with the United States placing 41st on the 2008 CIA World Factbook list, behind Bosnia but still edging out Albania. 'Beginning in the early 1980s and continuing through 1999 those who were already disadvantaged did not benefit from the gains in life expectancy experienced by the advantaged, and some became even worse off,' says a report published in PLoS Medicine by a team led by Harvard's Majid Ezzati, adding that 'study results are troubling because an oft-stated aim of the US health system is the improvement of the health of "all people, and especially those at greater risk of health disparities.'"
That guys gonna be pissed he won't actually be able to live forever.
I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.
Just remember, the USA is better at everything. Why? Because!
Don't ever question that or you'll be a traitor. Why try to change what is already perfect?
What doesn't kill you only delays the inevitable
[citation needed]
The "US health system" has a stated aim? I thought the aim was to maximize the profits of the insurance companies, which we know can only be done by denying health care to those at greater risk. Where, exactly, is this stated?
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
I modded your post 'funny' by accident. Posting to undo.
Just wait until government Death Panels start pulling the plug on Grandmas!
What?
You need to calm down before you give yourself a heart attack and drag the average down even more.
When you look at the 20 year trend chart for obesity in the United States, it's clear that there's going to be repercussions. It's appalling what has happened. The cost of obesity isn't going to manifest right away, but over the next two decades, it's going to hit the mortality rate hard. And to think that people fear disease but don't seem to be doing too much about preventable self-inflicted health problems.
Or maybe not. Maybe only 37th.
Seriously, the way the insurance companies are sabotaging health care reform what we need is what I call the nuclear health care reform option. Maybe something like along the line of if reform doesn't pass:
1) All members of congress that blocked it must pay for their own health insurance out of their own pockets. No more public health care for them like most of them currently have through their Congressional pay and benefits package..
2) No more bonuses or stock options for the top tiers of insurance company execs as long as they deny insurance to people. And cap their pay at 100K per year and force them to pay for their health benefits out their own pocket. No health benefits as part of their compensation. They have to purchase their own plans.
If they pull the trigger and kill reform, then we should pull the trigger on them. Mutually Assured Destruction.
The only health care program that really works is the single payer option.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
There is not really much wrong with your analysis, but you should be aware that it is not just people who think differently to you who are arguing from a political perspective. The real question (and it is a question that I can't answer satisfactorily to myself) is what happens to the children of these "nitwits"? The fact is that if a kid is brought up in a household where the adults are not able to look after themselves properly, are the kids more likely to grow up like the adults in their lives? That's the difficulty; you and I and lots of other people are brought up right, we get education as to what is healthy and what is not. But these kids (ie the children of the nitwits) don't get that opportunity. We can dismiss the parents for being nitwits (but remember they may also have been brought up in an unhealthy household) but can we so easily dismiss the children? I grew up in an old-fashioned liberal family. As I have grown older, my views have shifted and I take a slightly more conservative stance. But I cannot (and I hope I never will) dismiss the children of inadequate parents. Doing that is a step too far, in my opinion.
Reality is defined by the maddest person in the room
Large portions of the low life expectancy part of America also take in close to 20% more federal funds than they put into the system. If you've ever stopped off at a gas station between New Orleans and Atlanta on I-10, you'd know how low the standard of living is there. We're talking large swaths of the states in that area with average incomes barely breaking the $20,000 mark. In defense of Texas, the portion they're talking about is between Beaumont and Texarkana, right on the border, bleeding into the Tyler/Longview area. Houston/Dallas/Austin have some of the highest standards of living (and lowest cost of living) in the country.
moox. for a new generation.
Good Post. I know of several people who whine and piss and moan about how bad their lives are and how poor they are but their spending habits are horrible and they made horrible spending decisions. Then they bitch about a 50 dollar doctors office visit because they have a cheapo insurance policy. Of course after the doctors appointment they drive home in new car they bought on credit so they can sit on their fat asses and play X-box 360 games till midnight.
Then there is me, who I scrimp and save even though I don't "Have to". I own my car, lock stock and barrel because I bought a used car. I own my own residence because I scrimped and saved so I could get a decent down payment on it and scrimped some more to pay it off ahead of time. I buy generic food at the grocery store and take other cost cutting measures. I don't buy expensive clothes and don't have an alcohol or drug habit.
I don't mind subsidizing someone who is missing a leg or arm or is paralyzed. What I don't like is subsidizing people which have a problem with the area between their ears. If someone in government could come up with a good mechanism to sort out the truly disadvantaged folks from the idiots who make dumbass decisions then i could get behind such a plan to pay for the people who are disadvantaged. Until then Capitol hill can go pound sand.
Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
The key is to extend the amount of work you can squeeze out of a person before they finally keel over.
Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
I Want My Country Back! Death Panels! Death Panels! Death Panels!
*ahem*
Sorry, I've been watching too much tv...
Indeed. Since we are 30th in life expectancy we have a LOT of room for improvement. My best friend Jim Dawson died in 1992 two weeks short of his 40th birthday. If he would have had health insurance, he'd be alive today, bringing up our life expectancy even (a very tiny bit) more. Multiply him by all the other people who have died from treatable diseases who had no health care, and it would go up a LOT. Both my parents are past today's life expectancy.
Note that the places where expectancy is low in the US is where there's the least chance of those poor folks having insurance? How is it a suprise that without health care you don't live as long?
Free Martian Whores!
Because it's going to come up, I want to mention that the biggest criticism of the US health care system is often that the US has lower life expectancies (thus trying to imply that the US health care system is not as good). This is a non-sequitur, if you really dig into the numbers, you will find that the main reason for lowered life expectancies is obesity. Here is a report. Check the graphs, only Greece rivals the US in plumpness.
Another common criticism is that the US has high infant mortality rates. This is likely because of premature babies, which aren't always counted in infant mortality rates in other countries. If you are planning on having a baby prematurely, the US is a good place to do it (but please don't plan on that).
There are a lot of problems with the US health care system, for example, it is hard to get insurance if you have a pre-existing condition, the cost of malpractice lawsuits (and other things) drives up costs, not everybody has insurance (although we end up paying for them anyway when they go to the emergency room: no one can be turned away without treatment, which is good), but shouldn't we try to solve the real problems that are in the system, instead of trying to rewrite the whole thing from scratch? There are relatively simple solutions to all these problems, and as any programmer knows, drastically changing the structure of your program is only going to introduce more problems.
Qxe4
Idiot!
So someone who's born into a poor family made a poor lifestyle decision? Gee, I guess people should choose better parents.
People born into poverty don't have the same access to all the good things - like healthy diets, etc. Parents scrimp even on essentials because they're poor, not because they want to.
Education is no guarantee of a well-paying job - the ability to BS, and an innate streak of dishonesty, have been better rewarded over the last couple of decades. There are well-educated people who, through no fault of their own, are out of a job. It's the economy, stupid! Or is everyone who is unemployed just a lazy, shiftless don't-wanna-know slob in your book?
And then there's the "shit happens" stuff. For example, recent studies have shown that it can take up to 2 DECADES for both sexes to recover economically from a divorce, and that even after "recovery" they never make up all the lost income. So they didn't have a crystal ball - they should stay in a bad marriage because it means they'll have more money? Sure, the kids might eat a bit better, but the fighting is also detrimental to their health.
There ARE two Americas in the United States, and this study goes to show how it impacts on health, including longevity.
Riiiight - McDonalds are banned in Europe, as are all fast foods, drugs, booze and tobacco, and all American culture. Except they're not. The higher death rates are from two things - guns and a lack of a comprehensive health-care system. Until the housing crisis, the #1 cause of bankruptcy was medical bills, and 74% of all those had medical insurance. The high cost of co-pays, and the insurance carriers weaseling out of paying for coverage to make a profit, meant that they had to go broke. So much for for-profit health care.
Here is a comparison of life expectancies between the US and Europe.
For unadjusted life expectancy, the U.S. ranks #14 out of 16 countries, but for the adjusted standardized life expectancy, (adjusted for the effects of premature death resulting from non-health-related fatal injuries) the U.S. ranks #1.
I know the AC was trolling but Republicans on average have higher SES (socioeconomic status) than Democrats do (Subramanian, S. V., & Perkins, J. M. (2009). Are republicans healthier than democrats? International Journal of Epidemiology, doi:10.1093/ije/dyp152). Sure, people who live in rural areas tend to be Republican, but people who live in inner-cities tend to be Democrats. As the article I referenced shows, Republicans actually tend to be a little healthier than Democrats (related more to SES than anything else).
gains in life expectancy may be pretty much over
And nobody will EVER need more than 640K of RAM.
Forget the fact that things like the internet and the Human Genome project have lead to a flood of medical research, the likes of which we've never seen, that is bound to produce results.
Sorry, but that's about the most ridiculous statement Slashdot has posted today.
But at least they die free.
And one of those stupid things, apparently, is to be too poor for health insurance..
And yes, at one point long ago, back probably before you were born, the United States used to pride itself on being the longest average lifespan in the world.
Finally, not everybody has the chance to "get an education" that you did. Not everybody was taught how to make "good lifestyle decisions". And even if they were- Americans over the past 40 years have been basically thrown out with the trash, including nerds.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Isn't the headline wrong? How can "gains in life expectancy may be pretty much over" if the "The culprits [are] largely preventable." On the contrary, the headline should be "Large Gains in Life Expectancy Still Possible." I'll leave the politics and policy aside but "preventable" means preventable.
The problem with the system in America is that it is designed to kick people when they are already down and then hold them there. People of all races and upbringings make mistakes. The American system is much more unforgiving to those who get caught making mistakes.
This, for example, and ridiculous bank overdraft fee policies among others.
-- Ethanol-fueled
it should be noted that nothing factual you stated conflicts with the summary or the story - you just don't think it's a bad thing. OK, fine. If it's true that life expectancy in the US is peaking, that is an interesting, objective observation. If you want to make the case that's a good thing because you think most people are inherently dumb and deserve to die, go ahead. But don't claim it's not newsworthy, or is nothing but politics.
Let me get this straight- in the US, our lowest classes are so well fed, with so many calories, that they become overweight. Because they are poor, they can't afford to lose weight.
Astounding. In many other countries, the poor starve to death.
We're so rich that even the poorest of our poor is suffering from over-abundance.
Every American should take a trip to a real 3rd world country at lease once in their lifetime. It would solve a lot of the entitlement issues we have.
So peripheral nervous system problems are OK; but central nervous system problems aren't.
Got it.
Ya know, that was my biggest problems with Sicko. Moore is throwing out all the numbers about spending per capita, highest incidences of diabetes, strokes, heart attacks, etc., and blames it on the health care system but misses an obvious cause of all of this; obesity. Obesity causes more health problems, and as a result more spending. But of course, Moore wouldn't say that, because now instead of blaming the big, bad corporations and government, he would be asking his viewers to take some personal responsibility (which seems to be a progressive idea). Our country isn't sick because of health care, it's sick because we're fat.
The demand for healthier options in low-income areas is low because healthier options are too expensive for them to afford. The highly processed nutrition-poor food is FAR cheaper than the whole-grain fresh-vegetable healthy stuff.
Oh stop already with the politics
Yeah, you'll show em when you get political on the matter!
"Stupid people do stupid things that cause them to die sooner." Not that there aren't stupid people everywhere, but in America we still have the right to be wrong to a much greater extent than the nanny states in Europe.
So then are you saying that anyone who makes less money than you is inherently stupid in comparison to you?
Enough with this continual blather about the 'disadvantaged/poor/etc.' if you nitwits aren't going to deal with the actual problem.
Then kindly enlighten us 'nitwits', if you could.
To a very high degree of correlation, the 'poor' aren't living in poverty because of a lack of money.
Really? I don't know where you live, but I haven't heard of many people who are born into families with money and then end up broke.
They lack money because they have make poor lifestyle decisions that RESULT in a lack of money.
Which is ignoring the fact that some good decisions require money...
Things like failure to get an education
That is an excellent example of one. If you are in a poor family, you might not even have access to enough credit for student loans.
Though even more so, if we want to talk about health care (which most reasonable people would agree has at least some correlation to life expectancy), we should note the relationship between health care and education:
If you want a higher education:
Hence many people of lower income status are stuck in failure spirals. While providing them with health care may not be enough to get them out, it should at least be able to help some people, both from that classification and others.
Normally I wouldn't flame so hard but this entire article so reeks of slashkos politics I just couldn't hold back. Enough with the thinly disguised political stories outside the politics topic. Raise your hand if you actually think this was 'news for nerds' and not the DNC talking points being put into action.
Were you not reading yesterday when a conservative opinion got made the slashdot front page and lead to a conservative orgy in the discussion?
But don't worry, there may be some conservatives running around with left-over mod points who will mod your post up to +5 just as they did with several from other conservative authors yesterday.
I thought that was what the current argument was about, whether we were going to HAVE a single "US health system" or not
Perhaps you haven't been reading the news? Congress gave up on single payer health care at least a full month ago. It won't happen in this congressional session, period. Really the discussion now is just on how much the democrats will fold on any sort of change whatsoever; will they fold like a nice origami piece (perhaps a swan or a dove would be nice), or completely down like a lawn chair (to be stuffed away for the indefinite future in someone's garage)?
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
This might mean all those calculations projecting imminent bankruptcy of social security will have to be redone. If people are not going to live as long as they do now, there will be that much reduced pressure on the social security trust fund. Couple it with stalling the insurance reform, make healthcare more expensive, and bump another 45 million more Americans off health insurance. That way we can bring down the number of people getting on to the social security benefits and the duration also will be cut. So looks like all these problems are self correcting and they will solve themselves. Of course we may not like the way the problems solve themselves and we might personally get the short end of the stick too. But we at least know how the problems are going to solve themselves.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
If someone in government could come up with a good mechanism to sort out the truly disadvantaged folks from the idiots who make dumbass decisions then i could get behind such a plan to pay for the people who are disadvantaged.
I've got this little theory that when my state decided to stop paying for good mental health institutions to lock up the mentally ill, the number of idiots who make dumbass decisions exploded.
Might I make a suggestion that somebody with "a problem with the area between the ears" is just as disabled as the guy missing an arm or a leg- and needs to be treated as such?
Funny thing is, if we did that- if we treated mental problems as vigorously as we treat physical problems- the number of single parents and idiots going home to drink and play XBox all night would probably go down drastically.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Can you see the vicious circle where lack of healthcare and education leads to new generations of poorly educated people with little access to healthcare? Alternately, can you explain how you would have done differently if you happened to be born to a single parent in those poor areas?
Ubuntu on primary work desktop since Dapper Drake (2006).
Being poor is most likely to shorten your life expectancy and we have gutted most of the manufacturing in our rural communities. I suspect this has more to do with these areas life expectancy than government funding, education or anything else.
love is just extroverted narcissism
To a very high degree of correlation, the 'poor' aren't living in poverty because of a lack of money. They lack money because they have make poor lifestyle decisions that RESULT in a lack of money.
Yes, like choosing parents who are alcoholics and drug addicts. Like choosing to be brought up in homes where there are no books. Like choosing to be brought up by people with no connections to wealth. Like choosing to live in the ghetto with horrible teachers imprisoned in decaying schools with no school supplies.
YOU, sir, are the problem. YOU, sir, are the reason these folks are "Stupid" (your word).
become a single parent
Or are brought up by one, or worse, in a foster home.
waste money on substance abuse
Or are brought up by meth addicts and crackheads. There but for the grace of God goes YOU, and you should thank whatever deity you do or don't believe in that you weren't brought up under these circimstances. If you had been, you would now be as dirt poor as they, and you'd likely be smoking crack instead of getting drunk on fine wine and your own ignorant vanity.
Free Martian Whores!
Regarding "US health care system," I think it's pretty instructive to ask the question - where do people go when they want the best health care. As in, the best that money can buy... not cheap, but the best. As far as I know, that is still typically the US, and some scattered specialists around (UK, Japan...). But if you're talking about the best, newest research, etc... universities in the US tend to be where it's happening, apparently.
Ya know, i'd agree with a lot of your post, but to say the higher death rates are due to guns and lack of health care, that's idiotic. What about our obesity problem, which is causes by diet and lack of exercise (in most cases)? If people took care of their body then they wouldn't need to see the doctor's all the damn time. Would universal health care be nice, sure. But how about we take some personal responsibility and take care of ourselves (oh wait, progressives like placing the blame somewhere else). We don't do that, health care costs will keep increasing due to heart attack, diabetes, etc.
So when do we start rounding up the children of disadvantage parents and where will we put them so they can be raised to your high standards? Or do we rewrite the rules of the world to make sure those children are taken care of to your high caliber of lifestyle? What incentive do their parents have to give a damn if their kids will be cared for no matter what way they are raised? What incentives are given to parents who control their reproductive urges, but would normally be able to care for those children?
Have you ever seen Idiocracy?
Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
I would fully reply to your trolling but I just don't have the energy to do it right now.
Life expectancy and infant mortality are used quite often to compare the relative health of different countries. I will quote from the article.
You are bitching that this post is right from the Democratic party talking points. I would ask you, how is it that we pay more for health care "per capita" (that means per person, since you trolls often fail to understand things) yet have a lower life expectancy that fucking CUBA?
It seems to me that when your health care system is that inefficient, the common sense thing to do is fix it. Yet the idea to try and fix an obviously broken health care system is denounced as DNC talking points.
There are poor and disadvantaged in every country, and people in every country in the world make bad decisions, like substance abuse or an XBOX?!? (I didn't know the XBOX played a major role in our health care woes, but whatever.)
The point is that every country has its disadvantaged, yet America's disadvantaged are further disadvantaged by bad health care. And everyone in America pays higher prices per person for health care. Even those perfect people like you who don't make bad decisions.
This IS news for nerds, and it is a valid science article about health. It is a serious problem, and trolling it won't make your Republican talking points any more true.
who prays for Satan? Who in 18 centuries has had the humanity to pray for the 1 sinner that needed it most? ~Mark Twain
And we are fat because the least expensive foods are all terrible for you, thanks to subsidizes to big agriculture.
I absolutely agree with you, and if the Democrats made as their goal, to "Help the homeless, help the poor, and rehabilitate the felons who never learned how to adjust to normal life in the first place and thus turned to crime" they would get a lot of support, and they'd definitely have mine. Instead they get into power, and what exactly is their goal? To insure everyone? Or is it to have the government take over the US health care system? Is their goal to help the poor, or is it to hurt the rich?
From my perspective, both republicans and democrats have a good side: the republicans want to empower the individual citizen and free him from the limitations of government, and the democrats want to help the poor and downtrodden. These are both noble goals.
But somehow in practice, these both seem to be forgotten. And it's the American public that gets hurt, by both sides.
Qxe4
No. I have family members who are unable to get their conditions treated. One has a tumor and can't afford to even get it biopsied, and can't find any agency to help. Nor could he do anything about it even if it was found to be malignant (other than die).
That very well may be, but i fail to see how that's a "health care" issue.
American popular culture, with its veneration of stupidity and trivial entertainment along with savage loathing of science and knowledge, is to blame for many of the social ills of the backward.
I don't care about their life expectancy since their only function is to help make our society a Hellmouth. They can die young, and it would be nice if they take their window-licking fatass demon spawn with them.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
If people took care of their body then they wouldn't need to see the doctor's all the damn time.
Actually, there has been quite a bit of talk about prevention programs, things like physical education in school, and other inexpensive options to try to get people to take better care of themselves.
The problem is, that there is no good way to correlate it to money saved. If we spent X number of dollars on getting people to get off the couch and walking, it would be nearly impossible to say that it saved Y dollars on long-term health care (regardless of whether you choose a Y less than, greater than, or equal to X). And with all the calamity over the cost of the health care reform that hasn't yet passed either house, it is hard to sell prevention right now.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
Meaning, there are fewer grocers or supermarkets, and those stores that do exist stock more highly processed and unhealthy foods. Kinda tough to follow food guidelines when you can't even buy the elements of a healthy diet.
You know, I've been to some nice fancy grocers that specialize in all organic foods and such, and I've also been to a lot of run down supermarkets in bad neighborhoods. While the ratio of healthy to unhealthy food is certainly different in each case, I've NEVER seen a since store that didn't have healthy items. Pretty much everywhere has a produce section. Pretty much everywhere sells oatmeal, or cereal (health stuff like bran flakes - not Golden Crisps or the other mostly sugar cereals). Everywhere sells bread and cold cut meat.
Don't get me wrong I know it's harder to buy stuff like fresh fish or other seafood from a crappy rundown store, but again, that's market forces, and it's not the ONLY option if you're looking to eat healthier.
I actually grew up in one of those southern areas of the country, and it's quite obvious why it's having an effect. We deep fry everything down here. Most families are now deep frying their Thanksgiving turkey for heavens sake. When I grew up my grandmother fixed fried bread, and "butts meat" (which is more or less salted and fried fat). Despite my protestations, even when cooking a vegetable such as cabbage, or potatoes, or the like, my parents would throw a ham-hock or a slab of bacon or something in the pot with them. To them you simply COULDN'T cook vegetables without throwing fatty meat in the pot with them. Salt? Don't get me started. They eat salt on EVERYTHING, and not in small quantities. A small side salad will get a teaspoon or two of salt added. All fruit (when they eat fruit) had salt sprinkled on it before eating it. I've even got a few family members that will pour salt into a BEER before drinking it.
Result: I've had 2 uncles who had heart attacks in their 30's. On my mom's side neither grandparent lived past 55. My dad and every one of his 4 brothers has high blood pressure, and 2 have diabetes. It's not because there weren't healthy options in the stores, it's because they refuse(d) to buy and eat them.
"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
PS - as few people who are born into poverty become rich as those born into wealth become poor. Like the Blood Sweat And Tears song says, "those that got shall get, those that not shall lose." There are a few, like my late uncle, who are born into near poverty and became rich, and hard work played a big part of his success, but luck played an even bigger part. Had he not been born with excellent eye-hand coordination and creativity (it runs in the family, and that's pure luck) and met his one legged business partner in the hospital (also pure luck), he would likely NOT have become rich making better artificial limbs than were available at the time. He would have been middle class, like my parents.
And had he been born in a slum he would be poor.
Your ignorance is appalling.
Free Martian Whores!
I live in Buffalo, NY, the second- or third-poorest city in America, depending on who you ask. Yes, the city neighborhoods tend to have lots of corner stores that sell grape drink and Li'l Debbie knockoffs. But there are supermarkets and farmer's markets all over the city as well.
The entire city is fewer than ten miles wide. A bicycle trip with a backpack could retrieve a week's worth of fresh produce in less than an hour.
The problem isn't availability, it's education. Unfortunately, since poor neighborhoods also tend to have lots of single parents and a tremendous high school dropout rate, teaching that there's better food -- and a better life -- available is a bit of an uphill battle.
--saint
Depends on your income. If you make enough to disqualify you for the free stuff, that doesn't mean you automatically make enough to afford health insurance on your own. Rule of thumb is, if you make minimum wage, you can't get the freebies. And I'd love to see somebody pay 2200/yr for the cheapest medical insurance advertised on tv when they make about 16.5K before taxes.
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
If you're lucky, young man, you'll die young and not have to eat those words. Now get off my lawn!
Free Martian Whores!
"We can dismiss the parents" ... the parents were children of some other nitwit parents, you can't blame anyone under your criteria, so how about just not blaming anyone? Or better yet, blame yourself for not going out there and educating these poor people.
Unfortunately, these poor and uneducated people are poor or uneducated by choice. How often do you see a shanty with a DirecTV dish and a new Silverado out front? They are everywhere in Kentucky and Tennessee, West Virginia and northern Alabama. These people make choices about what is important.
How many of you remember that nitwit in your classes that never did any work? Maybe he/she compensated by acting like a jerk or by acting pompous. You cannot force people to make different choices just because you know they're better, you can't control everyone's lives. All you can do is give them the opportunity to work for themselves, and when they take that opportunity and lease a new pick-up truck instead of buying healthcare for their family you can't go out an penalize the well-to-do because this asshat has different priorities.
How many of you have worked a soup kitchen or a homeless shelter? There are plenty of hungry and homeless that have just had a shitty hand of cards and needs a helping hand, but for every one of those there's 15 that are just taking advantage of the system for free stuff. And for each one of those 15 taking advantage of charity, there's another 2 that are choosing to steal not from charities but from the penitentiary by getting free food and a room for a minimal crime, because it's easier than begging for food. For every 1 person that needs help, another 45 are just taking advantage. That one person that truly needs help won't know that they can get free healthcare from the government if it ever passes because they don't have a TV, or live in a rural area where access to healthcare means driving for 2 hours.
Life expectancy will continually go up, there are biomedical advances daily that are finding our to increase the rate of DNA repair, or preventing oxidative damage. Nutritional sciences is finding the foods that are best for us. My children's children might be able to see a Preventive care physician on a regular basis and not ever have to die from old age, we have the ability to make that kind of incremental advance. National life expectancy is a social issue, and every socialist that has tried has discovered that society cannot be controlled. All we can do is give people the opportunities and incentives to live in a manner that is best for everyone as a sum. Quit trying to micromanage, the complexity of such a system will only ensure its collapse.
It isn't JUST a health care availability issue. In the US, it is largely a cultural thing too, IMHO. According to the article, it notes it is lower in the southern US. I live in New Orleans, and I can attest to how it is different down here. Food, drink and fun are such an integral part of life down here. We like our food fried, butter is your friend, etc. And down in the south, drinking is much more a part of life. I never saw people get so hot under the collar when you mentioned you got a little bombed the other night and had to be careful driving home....until I started talking to people from up north. Down here, not as much a stigma.
Heck, we still have drive through daiquiri shops down here, and bars give you a 'to go' cup to take your drink with you when you leave.
We still smoke a lot too in the south...especially in NOLA.
But, back to the food. Southern food is really good. Many of us down here "live to eat" rather than "eat to live". Obesity is huge down here. I've been changing my life around, cutting back on booze, and trying to eat better and exercise regularly, and it is still hard. You know they old saying "never trust a skinny chef"? Well, damned near everyone down here I know is at the least a great home chef...we love to cook and eat. Families still get together over food quite a bit down here...nothing like a big crawfish boil to get a group of friends to hang out, be good company and have some drinks.
Sure, we do have a large number of poor in the area...but, medicaid covers most of the truly poor, poor, poor people. The people in the projects are covered...I've seen that in practice.
And also, especially in this area...(from here to Houston really IMHO), it is known as Cancer Alley . I know the wiki says it is anecdotal, but, I've seen studies and reports on the news from the past telling that it is prevelant down here due to the large number of oil/chemical processing down here. We also are exposed to everything in the MS river, that comes from the rest of the country.
But you know...I've come to the conclusion, that there is Quality of life, vs Quantity of life. You have to strike a balance. I'd hate to life a boring, bland life that was long, than one that was a bit shorter but full of adventure, food, fun and friends. So far...I've been blessed with the latter.
I personally love living in the south, and especially New Orleans. The people are so much nicer, and you still see people being polite to each other. Quality of life vs Quantity of life.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Take a step back and ask if you believe that (a) Americans are genetically more likely to die young; (b) if America as a location is inherently more deadly from pesticides or something. Neither one flies for me.
You are left with only the two variables I can think of. Health care and lifestyle. Where "lifestyle" includes everything from "your personal diet and exercise" to "national norms in diet and exercise", to "crime" Japanese just eat less fatty foods; Europeans walk more. MOST nations have less bullet-related deaths.
A conservative of my acquaintance tried to pass it all of as the latter. I believe his harsh words were "subtract the crack babies and they're the same as Canada".
So I did some research which I alas can't cite, but it took me about 30 minutes with Google, so I'll leave it as an exercise. Limited to over-65 white males with kidney disease, Canada STILL had better survival rates. 65+ females with heart disease? Canada in the lead, by statistically significant amounts. I remember it running like that across a whole matrix of hospital-admissions reasons. Liver, digestive tract, neurological...pick your organ, it's better to get sick in Canada. The stats even apply (with much less force to be sure) for the American insured, probably because American "insurance" has a way of disappearing on you when most needed.
So, sorry conservatives, health care explains a lot. (Canada, sorry to admit, has ALL your obesity problems, and then some in a few provinces.)
Not to forget the early-deaths, but not all of those are bullet-related. A factoid from the current debate includes this one: children born into uninsured households have a 50% higher chance of dying before the age of 1. It doesn't take a lot of baby deaths to really haul down an average.
So, in summary: American lifestyles could improve. So could American health care. Blame both.
It's not improbable at all, especially if he lived in a rural area. You can't be denied care for an emergency condition in an ER, but if you're in the ER, it's an emergency. If it's an emergency brought on by a chronic, untreated ailment, odds are you're in pretty bad shape and at a much greater risk of death than if you'd been treated for the underlying cause earlier on. As an example, if you show up in the ER with an undiagnosed malignant tumor in its last stages, you can still be saved, but your odds of being saved are extremely decreased by that point.
Furthermore, many rural areas in the U.S. do not have ready access to the most modern treatment options available. If I go fifteen miles north, as the crow flies, over the mountains I can see out my front window, those people have horrible treatment options. They are, basically, limited to less than half a dozen family doctors and a small free clinic that is not capable even of treating a broken bone. The quickest access they have to modern medicine in an emergency is a 40 minute helicopter flight to the nearest university medical center.
Our doctors, hospitals, specialists, and medicines are, by and large, incredible in the U.S. Our access to them, however, is pretty sorely lacking for a great number of people.
I don't know that he's telling the truth, and I don't know that his brother/friend (sorry, I forgot the relationship) did everything he could have, but, based on the rural area I grew up and still visit sometimes, I could absolutely see how it happens.
"My understanding is that in England, most of the time if you are born in the "working class", your children will die as part of the "working class". If you look at U.S. statistics, you discover that most of the people in the bottom quarter of wealth in the population ten years ago, aren't in the bottom quarter today."
Might be true, might be false, I don't know. But I'd like to hear your references. Also - you should match like with like. You suggest people in England born poor die poor, but people in USA (of undeclared age, you're not suggesting new born) ten years later are more wealthy. This is not matching like with like. Give me equivalent statistics for both places and I'd be interested to hear more. You might expect somebody aged 20 to move up the wealth scale in both countries by the time they reach the age of 30. It's a different argument to suggest that somebody born into a socio-economic group in England is more likely to die in that group than in the USA.
Interested to read your arguments once referenced though, they are certainly an interesting theories.
One thing I learned about the US that is hard to grasp for someone from say Holland is that there are areas in the US where you just can't buy produce. No vegetables.
Sure, you can DRIVE to another area, but that costs money.
Now I can't say exactly how true this is, but the simple fact is that even in "poor" areas in holland you can easily WALK (in less then 5 minutes) to a supermarket. Often one of a regular big chain like the AH. Which carries in all its stores, fresh vegetables.
They are still relatively expensive however.
If you do the math, then cheap fast food (the cheapest no-brand frozen pizza's) can be a LOT cheaper then even buying healthy base products and making your own. Good luck making a meal for 99 euro cents (cost of a frozen pizza). That of course assumes that such fresh products are even available, which in america they apparently aren't always.
You do get fat from eating to much, but you also get fat from eating the wrong things. Eat only frozen meals and your waist line will expand.
What europeans forget is the sheer scale of america. Everything is really bigger over there and this includes the slums. What might a be a bad neighbourhood in holland, consisting of maybe a few streets, is an entire suburb housing the same number of people as major town in holland.
Amsterdam, the dutch capitol has 750.000 people and is surrounded by farm land. It would fit several times into a large american city. In fact, the entire country is less then a 1/3rd of the state of new york.
Being poor can make it very hard to eat right especially if you are in a poor area where there just ain't a market for expensive healthy food.
Compare the prices, cheapo no-brand coke vs apple juice (and I am not even talking about the stuff with no sugars or artificial flavors added).
Frozen poptarts vs fresh bread (and wonder bread does not count as bread, it is a building material).
Remember, it is not the expensive fast foods that make people fat (well they do) but the stuff we are talking about here is the no-brand really crappy cheapo kind that is decades away from cutting down on articficial flavors and saturated fats.
When I buy fries, mine are made from real potatoes, cut on the spot, properly fried in expensive fluid fat that is replaced often. When you do it on a budget, you have cheapo thin fries (more fat) that are fried in your own cooker with months old solid fat.
Poor people eat unhealthy because healthy food is really expensive. live on a budget for your whole life to find out.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Bah, screw Greece. What have THEY ever accomplished?
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Take a sociology course. The single greatest statistical correlation with how much a person will earn, is how much their parents earned.
Let me put it in a more clear way... the people in the bronze age were at a reasonable similar biological state to what we are now. Enough to consider them well within the same species.
Yet, we have tons of advantages that they didn't have. Why? Because we were biologically superior? Because we work harder for it? Wow, no. It's because we're standing on the shoulders of giants.
The same works on the small scale. Children stand on the shoulders of their parents, and if their parents aren't giants, then the children won't be giants.
WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
You seriously want things here to be like Cuba? You can't actually be that stupid, can you?
No, he doesn't and that was precisely his point. If somewhere as shitty as Cuba has a higher life expectancy then those in your own country then there is something majorly wrong going on.
> The real question is what happens to the children of these "nitwits"?
Very good question. To start trying to answer it we can begin with the sad list of things we have already tried and know don't work.
1. Progressivism in general. Redistribution of wealth, class envy, the workers seizing the means of production, all that rot.
2. Government schools. We already throw away more money per student than most countries and we piss away a lot on the worst schools. See our nation's capital, Washington D.C. for a vivid example.
3. The welfare state, Progressivism's compromise between full blown socialism and the old Classical Liberalism they are seeking always to supplant. Bring up a kid watching mom walk to the mailbox on the first of the month and you can forget em seeing the value of getting an education and a job.
The problem isn't one of money. And it isn't a lack of government. Add up the Sagan's of cash we have taxed and spent away in the War on Poverty and the answer is clear, that money in the private sector would have lifted a lot more people up by a general increase in GDP than the multigenerational poverty the Great Society bought us.
We have a long history of people showing up on our border with the cloths on their backs, living poor but boosting their children into the middle class and and few of their children making it to the upper ranks. Katrina flushed out tens of thousands of forth and fifth generation wards of the state. There is your problem. The problem is a moral and philosophical one, not an economic one.
Democrat delenda est
It seems that we're interested in making some political points and (or) walking lock-step with some biases.
If you check the data from the PLoS Med citation (http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/slideshow.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pmed.0050066&imageURI=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pmed.0050066.g003#) you'll discover that finishing high school would appear to be a detriment to longevity (my personal guess is that a fair number of more educated folks cash in earlier due to stress).
When you talk poor and rural, there appears to be two, one in the south and one in the northern Midwest. It's true that the rural south has seen a decline, but looking at the "WebMed" citation (http://www.webmd.com/news/20060913/top-states-for-life-expectancy), unless you've got the technology to convert your genetics to become a non-Pacific island Asian (defined as America 1), you're next best bet is to join "America 2" defined as; "3.6 million low-income rural whites living in Minnesota, the Dakotas, Iowa, Montana, and Nebraska with income and education below the national average. Average life expectancy: 79 years."
My personal read with "America 2" is simply (again) a more "kicked-back" (less stress) lifestyle. In wandering the U.P. (home of the "Uppers", namely the Upper Peninsula of Michigan) if there is a common trait among the folk, is that they're simply taking it easier than most folks in urban settings. They're "in-to" out of doors (less sedentary) and if you want to get one's attention, its not by the latest fashion, but where there's a better hunting / fishing / biking / beer joint (meet a Upper and you'll understand the last item). Cars are rusty but the barrels are clean and the reels oiled.
I've added a fair amount of personal opinion, which is clearly open to argument (and I hope that any Uppers reading this do not take offense that I secretly...or at least used to secretly...covet their lifestyle) but none-the-less, if you're about to write spout off on the subject, at least read the citations.
In a nutshell, we tend to be fat and lazy, which doesn't take a high school education to figure out, and we're also way too stressed.
Greg
I wouldn't say FAR cheaper.
Simple grains and canned vegetables and beans are very cheap, but they do require some effort to prepare. Unfortunately, that puts it out of reach for many homeless people who lack access to a kitchen.
the west coast and the east coast should join with canada and just let the fat lower middle of the usa (pun intended) descend into the third world fundamentalist hell hole it is
the civil war turned out badly. it should have been "lost" by the north. and today maybe we'd have a smaller, but much better usa without the morons in flyover country holding us back with their low iq reactionary politics
socialism! socialism!
jesus shut the fuck up you ignorant angry retards
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Everything is more expensive in the ghetto because of crime rates, causing higher prices, local shortages, more dispair, fewer options, which feeds more crime, and so on. It's a self-sustaining cycle, heading downwards.
Back in The Day (mid-80's), I did some retail work for an East Coast chain. One store I worked at was out in Deepest Darkest Suburbia. Zero problems there except for the occaisional kid trying to shoplift a 6 pack of beer. The clerks could interact with the customers easily. The other was at the edge of the ghetto in the nearest metro area which had been in serious decline for ages ('Rust Belt'). There, the clerks lived in a cash cage with 3 inch lucite armoring, and made change through a sliding drawer. Where the suburban store haddn't seen a robbery in 10 years at that point, the metro store had the reputation of getting a robbery attempt at least once a month.
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
When did they classify stupidity as an actual mental condition needing treatment?
When they mandated compulsory education?
Why, without your clothes, you're naked, Miss Dudley!
And one of those stupid things, apparently, is to be too poor for health insurance.... Finally, not everybody has the chance to "get an education" that you did. Not everybody was taught how to make "good lifestyle decisions".
Um, yes, he explicitly said he thinks poor people are only poor because they're stupid. Being too poor and ergo stupid to have health insurance is just a natural and just consequence. You think pointing out that not everyone was as lucky and privileged as he is going to sway his opinion, as if he didn't realize when he made that statement? No, he clearly thinks that if he hadn't had any advantage and started in the same situation as any poor person, he'd end up in the same place he is today because his natural awesomeness would just shine through. That lazy or dumb poor people exist is all the proof he needs, while the existence of lazy, dumb, but amazingly arrogant rich people isn't proof of anything at all.
The enemies of Democracy are
The English class system is extremely complex, but it's largely a question of attitudes (and to a lesser extent tastes) rather than money.
"And I'd love to see somebody pay 2200/yr for the cheapest medical insurance advertised on tv when they make about 16.5K before taxes."
Also, if you're in the situation the OP's friend was in you couldn't get health insurance for 10x that much money. American health insurance companies can refuse, outright, to cover you if you have a pre-existing condition. So, someone making minimum wage, and having a hard time even putting food on the table, has to choose between paying that $2200/yr in the off chance they develop a serious illness later in life, or they can go without it and be unable to receive adequate medical care should they end up getting seriously ill.
Rules of Conduct:
#1 - The DM is always right.
#2 - If the DM is wrong, see rule #1
The combined experience of the Nordic countries for half a century now should stand as proof that, even if everything in life is provided for you, the vast, vast majority of people still go out and work for a living.
That's great, if you're positioned to receive that best care or you subscribe to the lotto mentality that so many Americans do. Otherwise, it's beside the fucking point. Why should most people give a shit if a country has the best stuff, if they have no realistic chance of ever getting to use it?
But that's what insurance is.
For example, recent studies have shown that it can take up to 2 DECADES for both sexes to recover economically from a divorce, and that even after "recovery" they never make up all the lost income. So they didn't have a crystal ball
I find this funny, because if people were actually (morally, fiscally, and socially) allowed to live with each other to find out if they are compatible matches... we probably wouldn't have so much of this. Some of this though is poor personal choices and carelessness. (ie: kids having kids) But while there are laws/taxes/etc. preferring marriage to living single, this will continue on indefinitely.
Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
$50 doctor visit? Was that a witch doctor? My last doctor visit, a 10 minute cursory visual examination by a sports medicine doctor, cost $687. And I pay $450/month for my insurance. So I have to call bull on your story.
"You can't allow somebody to commit the crime before you detain them." [Condoleezza Rice]
"There were no charitable organizations or free clinics that he could have gone to? (doubtful)"
You have no personal experience with trying to get medical care while poor do you? Are you just talking out your ass? Charitable organizations willing to cover the medical bills for a major illness are few and far between in this country. Even if you happen to be in an area where there is one, you still have to get them to accept you as a case and, often, there is a huge waiting list. Don't agree? Then, put up or shut up. Name off a few such agencies yourself. If they're so common, then you must know some by name.
"I also doubt that not having health care was the primary concern for this death. What was the cause?"
Ah, the old "blame the victim" game. You know nothing about this person's situation but you are ready to assume the worst about them because it fits your personal agenda/beliefs. The truth is that not having health care leads to an inability to see a doctor for regular checkups or even minor treatment. In fact, as others have pointed out, you aren't guaranteed any health care at all unless you have an immediate emergency (and a terminal condition doesn't count until you are minutes away from death). Many serious illnesses (such as Cancer, AIDS, Gangreen, Rabies, etc.) are either easily treated if found early leading to either a cure (for gangreen and Rabis) or a vast increase in lifespan (for Cancer or AIDS). These same illnesses are virtually impossible to treat if they're only addresses minutes before they kill the patient.
Rules of Conduct:
#1 - The DM is always right.
#2 - If the DM is wrong, see rule #1
Haruumpph! Only if Obama's death panels didn't decide to euthanise him first!!
May the Maths Be with you!
Yes, bad things happen under our system, but I have a feeling this report is just propaganda. The timing is a little *too* perfect to be a coincidence.
"Sorrow is better than laughter, for by sadness of face the heart is made glad." [Ecclesiastes 7:3]
Isn't it a bit cynical?
None of the plans the Dems are proposing have the gov't take over the health care. The most they're proposing is a public option. The main objection is that it's a trojan horse -- the gov't will run health care and this is the first step. However, that would be another bill, that people can vote against if they'd like.
I used to be a little conservative, but in my view, the Republicans aren't anymore. They stand for big government (so long as it's used for spying and pork barrel military projects) and restricting freedom (USA PATRIOT Act). And while the Dems went along for the ride, they've not gotten out of the car.
-- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
Obesity causes more health problems, and as a result more spending. But of course, Moore wouldn't say that, because now instead of blaming the big, bad corporations and government, he would be asking his viewers to take some personal responsibility (which seems to be a progressive idea).
Maybe he didn't say that simply because he is, well, fat.
what exactly is this ignorant aversion to socialism all about?
if a guy breaks his leg, do you walk by him in the street?
no, you help him up
that's all universal healthcare is, on a societal scale. the cost of NOT helping those with medical need is far greater to society than helping those who are in need: a guy who can't provide for his family, a guy who can't show up for work, a mother who can't care for her chidlren, etc.: these situations have cost. add them up, and getting these people healthcare they can't afford currently means FINANCIAL SAVINGS for society
why is it you are so propagandized you can't see this?
did you ever actually stop and consider what "socialism" actually means on a philosophical level rather simply kneejerk in mindless propagandized ignorance?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Only Greece rivals the US in plumpness.
I call bullshit. For one, your BC study is out of date by a decade, and in that decade, healthcare costs in the US have risen 87%.
And even granting the fact that Greece is as fat as us, or fatter, Greece has national healthcare and ranks fourteenth on the same scale that rates the US as #37 (2005). And the Greeks spend the least per-capita on healthcare in the EU at $2,179/person, per the 2007 UN Human Development Report. (not, however, the least as a percentage of GDP, according to the first link). The US, per the same report, spends $6096/person.
So what accounts for the other $4000? We aren't 3x as fat. Just 3x as stupid because we accept this state of affairs.
And the relevance of that is? The most amazing care in the world is of no consequence if you can't afford it. I can't see how a system optimized for the super-rich can be considered the best for a society as a whole. A better measure would be where someone on an average income would be best served, or someone with no income.
An angle I hope we can all agree on is low costs. And that our current system fails badly on this point.
In some ways we treat our cattle better than ourselves. Of course we have near total control over what they are allowed to eat, something we can't reasonably impose on one another. But there are gentler ways to encourage better dietary habits. First is having good foods available, at good prices. Then, cattle get "free" regular checkups and treatment, because it makes economic sense to nip health problems in the bud, when they are easiest and cheapest to treat. Many of us don't get regular checkups, and we as a society pay for this. The ranchers who ignored the health of their cattle were soon ex-ranchers. A person is surely worth more than a cow. Chronically unhealthy people cannot contribute as much to our economy. We would get back more than we paid out if we instituted regular checks and simple treatments. Once every year or whatever appropriate time period for whatever conditions are being checked, everyone should be given checkup. And I do mean "given", for free. It still wouldn't really be free, because people have to travel, and perhaps wait. We would need further incentive to get people in for their checkups, perhaps a small payment, or perhaps a fine if they don't come. You'll have all the choice you want. We're just going to make bad choices worse, and good choices better, that's all.
Sometimes the only way you can get your health insurance to stop ignoring some problem is let it fester until you have to go to the emergency, and even then you have to fight fight fight with them to stop them from weaseling out of the bill, and watch those doctors carefully because many will pad the bill. This costs us all.
I have an anecdote to share, about just how wasteful we are. My father is old, and the circulation in one of his legs isn't the best. He suffered bruises on both legs and a cut on his better leg in an auto accident. Normally, these would simply heal up in a few weeks. No need for extraordinary care. Got some stitches for the cut, and that took care of the better leg. But, a few days later, his bad leg worsened. Being a holiday we waited one more day before seeing his regular doctor, who instantly sent him back to emergency. They cut his leg open to remove all the clotted blood that had collected. Then they packed him off to a wound care facility to deal with that surgical cut. There, he was fitted with this Wound Vac. Used it for 6 weeks, visiting once each week. I had no idea just how much that vacuum pump cost until it was all over. It turned out to be $1100 per week to rent it, and the most infuriating thing about that affair was the doctor had him keep the Wound Vac for one more week, unused, "just in case". Couldn't buy one, and there was no alternative except traditional care which they assured us would take twice as long. Patented device. Per visit, the doctor charged $400 and the hospital charged some $800 for facilities, then there was $100 more for supplies. Then, a nurse came to his house 3 times a week to change the bandages. $170/hour for that. The insurance chopped those ludicrous prices way down, and passed on 10% to us, yet they still played little games. Tried to characterize those visits as "emergency" so they could nail us with an additional $100 emergency copay.
So, a bruise racked up over $2500 per week in nominal expenses. I wonder if they could have used these newer surgical techniques that make only very small cuts, instead of the near 6 inch incision they made, and so saved on this whole wound care business. Of course, they have no incentive to do that. But here's the real kicker: the leg very likely would have healed on its own if only he had known to keep it elevated for a few days after the accident so the blood would circulate. A sawhorse with a sling, which we could have easily rigged up ourselves, no need for insanely expensive medical equipment, could have saved some $15000 in medical expenses not to mention the many inconveniences he suffered. How could the doctors have missed that one? Incentives again. They get paid for providing quantities of care, not outcomes.
Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
Canada and the United States share a common culture, same foods, etc, but the murder rate in the US is 3x what it is in Canada (4.2 instead of 1.4). If you remove US homicides committed by guns, the murder rate is the same. This is quite ironic, given that Canada has more firearms per capita then the US - Canada just does a better job of gun control.
As for the lack of health care in the US, the US has more people who have no coverage than the entire population of Canada. People without health care will die of untreated chronic conditions, as well as treatable acute conditions that are not tended to in time.
Canada -- Life Expectancy: 78 years (men), 83 years (women) (UN) - average is 80.4 years.
Also, the US infant mortality rate sucks 7.8 per thousand as opposed to 5.6 in Canada - almost 40% higher.
Yes, we need to get people to take responsibility for themselves. Allow doctors to refuse repeated treatment to smokers who don't quit, Ditto for alcoholics and crackheads and people who thing that "all you can eat" is a order from god, not a suggestion. Give custody to the other parent when one continues to smoke, binge drink, do crack, and/or over-stuff their pie-holes.
Make them "pay at the pump" with additional sin taxes on sweetened soft drinks, junk food, booze and simply ban the all-you-can-eat buffets outright.
Make it as socially unacceptable to be fat as it is to smoke - people get fat one bite at a time, and want to lose it without the hard work that going on a diet calls for. A waist is a terrible thing to mind, but so is seeing a couple of 400 pounders of blubber at the next table in a restaurant. Cows eat more gracefully - and they take more time to chew.
Because you should be able to buy fire insurance after your house burns down.
Do you have the slightest clue how insurance works?
We like our food fried, butter is your friend, etc
That's my grandmother to a T. She grew up in a rural area where food was cooked in lard, bacon eggs and toast for breakfast, plenty of pork, butter, etc.
Her doctor told her she had high cholesterol and she had to get the cholesterol down or she'd die. The doctor died instead. So she got a new doctor, who told her the same thing. He died, too.
Five doctors later, she finally died - at age 99 when she fell in the nursing home and broke her hip.
But you know...I've come to the conclusion, that there is Quality of life, vs Quantity of life.
Grandma outlived my Grandpa, who died as a result of an industrial accident, then a second husband, who died of cancer (also work related, he was a non-smoker). She outlived three of her four sons, all of her brothers, sisters, and friends. When she was 95 she told me "I don't know why people want to live to be a hundred. It ain't no fun bein' old!"
Free Martian Whores!
The combined experience of the Nordic countries for half a century now should stand as proof that, even if everything in life is provided for you, the vast, vast majority of people still go out and work for a living.
See, Socialism warps your mind. Can't even count on them to be decently lazy when the situation calls for it!
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
You should certainly be able to buy fire insurance on your next house.
Vitamin D doesn't have to be absorbed from food, the human body will produce it when exposed to sunlight.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
FYI, Massachusetts mandates insurance, and there's no true public system, which would drive down costs. And I don't care about guns either way.
Our death rates, as per my post above, are not even close to being due solely to obesity. Greece is fatter than us and has national healthcare twice as good for a third the cost. (Sources cited in my original post.)
We do not have universal healthcare. We have universal disease care, wherein we treat only those critical illnesses that have gotten to the point where patients will die without care (and sometimes not even then) when they could have much more easily been prevented by better care earlier--but the ER doesn't do that. And your so-called "health-care" system is one that bankrupts those who are unfortunate enough to get sick, or get hit by a car driven by someone uninsured (true story; I knew an engineer that had that happen when I volunteered at a drop-in center because after he got hit, he couldn't work, and he had so much to spend on physical therapy for 9+ months that he spent all his savings on copays so he couldn't afford his rent). And over half of bankruptcies in the US, before the housing bubble popped, were due to medical bills, and mostly people who actually had insurance.
And as for ability to choose your insurance, the idea is that there is no insurance--it's transparent. Whatever your doctor says you need, you get. None of this bullshit care denial based on pre-existing conditions or bureaucracy. Everyone gets the same basic standard and nobody's left to die on the street. If you want to purchase additional insurance on top of it, feel free; we will just stop rationing basic, necessary, and preventative care based on ability to pay.
And as to the proposed new system in the US, it's starting to resemble the Belgian system, much more than the Canadian or British systems, which are quite different. Look it up. It's better than ours.
The main reason our system is broken is the profit motive. Normally it drives the free market to great things, but in our case, the less care the individual gets, the more money the insurance company gets, and there's little room to choose another option. Then, one would suggest, we should take down the barriers between states and dismantle the employer-based system--I used to agree with that point, until it came to my attention that this is how credit card companies operate: they move to the state in which the regulations and consumer protections are most lax. Hence it has to be regulated in a federal manner, and at that point, the conservative ideal of a free market has been violated anyway, so we might as well eliminate the 30% administrative costs associated with insurance companies, which, by the way, Medicare outperforms them on.
Change insurer for non-medical reasons (premium, employer change, so on)? Welcome to waitlist hell, and scrutinization for pre-existing conditions, even though the populace's preponderance for a given condition didn't change as a result of your enrollment.
It's a bastardized, one sided situation, and where health insurance is your ONLY realistic option, because collusion and collaboration between insurance providers has ensured that most healthcare rates are jacked up way out of the realm of ordinary affordability, it's very delineating, you either have, or you have not.
Pop Quiz: Do you really think your overnight stay in emergency had an actual cost of $12,000? Do you wonder why the same chiro treatment costs $50 without insurance, but they bill the insurance provider $165 for it? Do you think that the insurance carrier is covering that $115 out of the grace of their heart, or because they employ such amazingly stellar investment gurus that they can do so on the return from the dividend from your premiums?
Where's that bridge and that "for sale" sign?
Wait, wait, wait. Exactly HOW did Obama want to prevent cost overruns ? Because there's (of course) a catch. All snake oil salesmen have catches. Big catches. So what's the catch ?
Well, I'm just an outsider, but the catch seems to be that the medical sector (insurers, doctors, pharmaceutical industry, etc.) will make less profit. And yes, that seems to be a big catch. Oddly, most handwringing doesn't seem to be about that. Well, at least not openly.
Regarding those `death panels', that is so obviously a non-starter for any politician who wants to be reelected (or has a hart), I am surprised any people fall for that propaganda. Political discussions in the USA are often not very subtle, but really. Aren't the people that bring up that kind of nonsense just laughed away?
> However, that would be another bill, that people can vote against if they'd like.
No it wouldn't. Let the public option pass (or the co-ops that are Freddie Med) and the logical conclusion is single payer. Jacob Hacker[1] was correct when he said:
"Someone told me this was a Trojan horse for single-payer. Well, it's not a Trojan horse, right? It's just right there. I'm telling you. We're going to get there, over time, slowly, but we'll move away from reliance on employer-based health insurance as we should, but we'll do it in a way that we're not going to frighten people into thinking they're going to lose their private insurance. We're going to give them a choice of public and private insurance when they're in the pool, and we're going to let them keep their private employer-based insurance if their employer continues to provide it."
> I used to be a little conservative, but in my view, the Republicans aren't anymore.
Amen to that. But remember this: Almost all Conservatives are (at least nominal) Republicans but many Republicans are not Conservatives. Especially so for Republicans who have been in elected office for long or live in the New York/DC corridor. It is our task to find and elect leaders who can correct this problem... while fighting the Socialists currently in power. Yes it was probably a needful thing to turn the Republicans out into the wilderness in response to the 'spending like drunken sailors' and corruption during the Bush years. But Obama and Princess Pelosi as the result certainly proves the Law of Unintended Consequences.
[1] And if anyone asks who he is I say two things, 1) YOu are too uninformed to be discussing this issue intelligently and 2) Google is yer friend.
Democrat delenda est
Do check out the blogspot post, but then check this out:
According to "OECD Economic Surveys: United States 2008", p. 137 (http://tinyurl.com/mt3g76):
"It has been claimed (Ohsfeld and Schneider, 2006) that adjusting for the higher death rate from accident or injury in the United States over 1980-99 than the OECD average would increase US life expectancy at birth from 18th of of 29 OECD countries to the highest. In fact, what the panel regression estimated by these authors shows is that predicted life expectancy at birth based on US GDP per capita and OECD average death rates from these causes is the highest in the OECD. The adjustment for the gap in injury death rates between the United States and OECD average alone only increases life expectancy at birth marginally, from 19th on average among 29 countries over 1980-99 to 17th. Hence, the high ranking of adjusted life expectancy mainly reflects high US GDP per capita, not the effects of unusually high death rates from accident and injury."
In other words, the figures in Table 1-5 are not U.S. life expectancies adjusted for fatal injuries, but rather a model that assumes that both the relationship of life expectancy to per capita GDP and injuries in the U.S. follow OECD trends.
That is - they are falsely giving the U.S. credit for having the same basic life expectancy as other other high GDP OECD countries, when in fact it is markedly lower.
Check it out for yourself, the Ohsfeld and Schneider report is at:
http://www.aei.org/docLib/9780844742403.pdf
See p. 20-21.
Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
To a very high degree of correlation, the 'poor' aren't living in poverty because of a lack of money. They lack money because they have make poor lifestyle decisions that RESULT in a lack of money. Things like failure to get an education (or worse reject the value of knowledge entirely), become a single parent, waste money on substance abuse or Xbox... but I repeat myself.
This is completely wrong. Assume a mythical capitalist society in which there are no drugs, no Xboxes, and no single parents. No one has done anything particularly stupid in their lives. Question: In this mythical society, who's job is it to clean bathrooms, and what do they get paid? Somebody has to do it. Somebody is at the bottom of the totem pole, and the bottom is not going to be a pleasant place to be. In a capitalist society (e.g. many Latin American nations) without a welfare system or minimum wage, working full time (defined as 60 hours a week) will not be enough to survive on in any developed nation.
See, what your argument essentially boils down to is "The poor are poor because they're bad people. That means that I don't need to feel guilty because I'm unwilling to pay $100 to prevent someone a mile down the road from me dying." I highly suspect you don't actually know any really poor people. You don't know a guy who is flat broke because he was a good barber but now has shaky hands due to nerve damage he sustained in Vietnam. You don't know a woman who worked in a shop making donuts every day of her life and can only pay the bills because she eats only donuts she can take home from work. You don't know a father with an engineering degree who can't support his family because he ended up in this country in order to escape massacres in Bosnia and doesn't speak English well enough to convince employers of his skill. (For those who are wondering: Yes, these people actually exist. I'm personally acquainted with each of them.)
For some real insight into what the life of a poor person in the US is really like, I recommend either Barbara Erhenreich's Nickled and Dimed, or Morgan Spurlock's pilot episode of his show 30 Days.
I am officially gone from
"I don't mind subsidizing someone who is missing a leg or arm or is paralyzed. What I don't like is subsidizing people which have a problem with the area between their ears."
You don't seem to understand that despite not having free public health care, you are in fact subsidising people without health insurance.
You see, without health care, the poor, lazy, mentally ill, illegal aliens, etc.. all wait until they are extremely sick, and use an emergency room, often with long stays and huge bills. By law, hospitals must provide emergency care. They attempt to make up for this massive loss, by increasing the costs for those that can pay.
So all of us working folks pay way more for health care than a true free market system would otherwise dictate. We pay more per person for health care than any nation on earth, yet the WHO rated us 37th for effectiveness of that care and overall health.
So here's the two general choices for bringing the cost of health care down:
1. Remove the laws requiring free emergency care.
2. Give people that don't have health care, free insurance plans, so we are treating by prevention and general care, rather than paying for emergency care.
Now obviously health care is incredibly complex. But that is one of the primary factors driving up the cost.
Insurance companies in the "free market" now, have one job: maximize profit. They are for profit companies. That means denying as many claims as they can, while making insurance premiums/plans as costly as the market will allow.
Without a public option, there really is no competition to bring the costs down. And when you add morality into the equation, and have laws guaranteeing emergency care for anyone, you further push the cost up.
Does sunlight require that I walk upstairs from the basement?
Massive profit does lead to a lot of cutting edge research and top notch facilities.
From what I've read though, a lot of our cutting edge stuff only helps people with very rare diseases, like rare cancers, etc..
So we are probably better at treating 1% of medical problems, while the cost of the other 99% of medical problems costs more per person to treat than anywhere on earth.
Mark my words, if I could not afford to pay for my medical treatment...[snip]...I would gladly accept death.
Bullshit.
Another cause of obesity in the US that is absent in a lot of other countries is that the US is designed around automobile transportation. Walking and biking are strongly discouraged by the design of our roads and the spread-out nature of our cities and towns.
> Of course, the problem is that the ailing schools need money fix their problems.
No they don't. Two choices really.
1. End the unions and tenure in K12 education. Tenure is a means of protecting freedom of thought in the academy, to allow intellectuals to study, teach and write in an environment free from undue influence. That is a good idea for a university but a lousy one for a K12 environment. A K12 teacher has a very different task than a university professor. A K12 teacher isn't supposed to be creating knowledge, they are supposed to be teaching the basics and hopefully getting some of the kids to think a bit. But they are supposed to be instilling a standardized curriculum, not pushing their own agenda in the classroom, the kids should get to wait for college for that. All tenure (and the education unions) do is make it impossible to get rid of teachers who burn out. Once it is actually possible to clean out the deadwood, get control as close to the local parents as possible by clearing out as much of the state and federal crapola as possible.
2. Or just do the right thing and end the government monopoly on schools. If education of the young is seen as a imperative (moral or policy) for the State then hand out vouchers. And just like the 'public option' being discussed currently in health care, if the State schools were forced to compete on a level field they would quickly die out. So make sure it IS a level field by ensuring the public schools received only the funding in the vouchers or tuitions from parents, exactly like the private schools would be funded with.
> Not in a "dump cash in them until they're better" way, but in a "we're not going to be able to
> attract good teachers and bring facilities up to par without spending some money.
I really don't understand this mindset. We have been doing exactly this 'dumping' of good money after bad for several generations now and expecting a different result from past performance each time. Insanity! Unless and until you change the basic assumptions built into the failed government education system it is irrational to expect a different result from yet another cash infusion. Yet if we DID fix the defects in the system improvement would be possible with the current funding.
> The even bigger problem is that we don't have a way to judge success in a reliable manner.
> Standardized tests are the worst method,
You state that like it were a uncontroversial fact. It isn't. A standardized test is a lousy way to judge writing ability, creativity, etc. It is a wonderful way to judge most of what a child needs to learn in the earlier grades. Set them a hundred random arithmetic problems of the sort they should be able to solve and if one child answers 80% of them that student is almost certainly doing better than one who only answered 50%. And neither is ready to advance. Same for basic reading comprehension, spelling, etc.
If you object to standardized testing you must be prepared to propose something better. Keep in mind that in the real world (and the same effect will taint any proposal you advance for K12) standardized testing is almost universal. They have proven themselves as the best defense against the EEOC and the trial lawyers.
Democrat delenda est
Well, not exactly. You'd get a clearer picture if you broke the US population down by demographics.
The US has more immigration, for one thing, and a greater disparity between rich and poor. Our drug problems seem to be worse. Mexicans use our Emergency Rooms for free and then go back to their country so they don't have to pay, but we're stuck with the bill. Or some stay here. Mexican immigrants have lower life expectancy.
Stillborne births are counted differently in some European countries, with a baby sucking one breath in the US being counted as living for one day, while the same baby in some European countries (don't know about the UK) would be called a stillbirth and ignored by the statistics. (Accounting for this still just brings the US up only into the top 15 or so countries in ranking, but it is a factor.)
The high end care in the US is some of the best in the world, and people come here from Europe for cancer treatment. Also, the fact that the US doesn't have price controls and Europe does means that the American market is the primary engine funding drug development. Europe is basically a free rider. If America enacted price controls on drugs (and why shouldn't we, to be economically competitive with the rest of the world) then Europe would see the drugs its cost-controlled medical system had access to dwindle.
Incidentally, the rate of organ transplants in the US is much higher than in Europe.
Also, frankly, the average American diet is awful. To give just one example; we don't test cattle for BSE (Mad Cow) because "it's never been found on this continent" though the lack of testing would make it impossible to find it so it's kindof a circular argument. US cows are slaughtered younger, so symptoms wouldn't appear in infected animals. Also, wild deer have been found with a BSE like prion, indicating that it is, in fact, on this continent. (Avoid US beef like the plague that it is.)
And hydrogenated oils should have been, by the FDAs own standards, approved only as an additive rather than a foodstuff.
___
It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
But every shill is an idiot, so the "but I repeat myself" follows. I was paraphrasing the famous American humourist, Mark Twain, who once said, "Are you a member of Congress? Are you an idiot? But I repeat myself..."
The best comparator for the US with regard to life expectancy is Canada, because while we have many similarities, we (Canadians) live several years longer than you (Americans.)
The two biggest differences between the countries are that our income distribution is significantly flatter than yours, and our health care system is universal and paid for via taxation (there is a nominal fee structure in some provinces, but it is equivalent to taxation.)
There are other differences: we have greater ethnic diversity than you--our Native American population alone is 4%. One in three Canadians is an immigrant. We have to deal with two official languages as well as a number of important minority languages: Hindi on the West Coast, Cree on the prairies, etc. We have a much more thinly spread population, so delivery of care and having enough people in one place to pay for big-ticket items is quite a bit harder for us than for you, with your larger, richer, denser population.
Those things are going to make it harder to deliver quality health care to Canadians, making our much longer lifespans quite remarkable. We also have a relatively large fraction of our male population working in mining, fishing, logging and farming, all of which kill people at much higher rates than other occupations (which is why they are done by men, because men dying has always been ok in all societies everywhere.)
How much of our longer lifespan is due to our flatter income distribution and how much is due to universal health care is not clear, but I think between them those are the major factors. Our flatter income distribution is achieved through more strongly progressive taxation at the top, and more robust income support at the bottom, which gives people at the bottom more latitude to make mistakes and learn from them productively, and gives people at the top less incentive to climb to the top by stepping on the faces of the oppressed masses.
Canadian society is also more democratic than American, with much hand-wringing over a recent federal election turnout that wasn't quite as low as the highest American turnouts in the past thirty years.
We are also politically and economically much more free than Americans, with far less implicit and explicit coercion regarding diversity of political opinions--as witnessed by our healthy minority and regional parties.
As a sometime small business-person who has friends doing similar work in the States I can say first hand that the burden of regulation/paperwork/bullshit on me is much smaller than in the US. You can incorporate here federally over the Web for $220 and the federal/provincial joint agreement in my province automatically handles provincial incorporation as well.
So those are some of the factors that MIGHT influence the difference, but you'd have to actually look in detail at the data and see:
a) who is dying
b) what are they dying from
to get a better sense of the actual causes. It's known as empiricism, and I highly recommend it.
Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
I recently lost half my salary, because I was stupid enough to go back to grad school for a second time. Because of that loss, I'm trying to still eat healthy, on less money than before. It's hard. I love cooking, and am pretty good at it, but fresh food costs a lot more than junk food. I'm knowledgeable enough to know how to buy in bulk and freeze stuff, and defrost it in time for dinner. However, that puts me a step above those with less education, and especially those with a minimal culinary background.
Healthy stuff takes more knowledge and effort to cook than nutrition-poor food. Boxed Mac and Cheese is filled with bad shit. However, it's easy to make. My mom's homemade Mac and Cheese is substantially healthier, made with fresh ingredients, and is substantially harder to make. In fact, it takes a recipe, a casserole dish, and some cooking skills to make it.
It's not just the cost that keeps the poor eating bad food - it's also the time, effort, and knowledge required to deal with healthy food.
There's a chicken breast purchased on sale a month ago almost thawed in my fridge right now. It's going to be far healthier than if I had stopped at KFC, but such a meal will take significantly more planning, cooking equipment, and other ingredients.
If you're ignorant and/or poor, you don't necessarily have all the tools to make a healthy dinner. In my case, I'm going to make a fairly inexpensive dinner of baked chicken breast, rice pilaf, and green beans. It will cost the same or less than a dinner I bought at KFC, and give me substantially higher quality food. However, I know a lot of people who wouldn't be able to do this, who aren't even poor. They just lack the knowledge and tools to make it happen.
Add "too poor to buy good food" to "unable to prepare good food", and it's obvious why the poor have an obesity problem.
Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
No, healthcare in America is the furthest bastard stepchild from insurance you can find. And I write claims adjudication software for the insurance industry. Have a heart attack, but the insurer finds that you forgot to mention that when you were 12 you had an appendectomy? Denial of coverage. Insurer decides that the treatment, available in every Trauma I in the country, is 'experimental'? Denial of coverage.
Really? Interesting. I've never been denied coverage for anything. Tonsillectomy to treat chronic hypertrophy of the tonsils... pre-existing. No problem. Congenital perforation of the abdominal wall (3 umbilical hernia) Covered. My ex-wife's Crohn's disease... across three different changes in service? Covered. My Dad's HBP ? Covered.
Incidentally, most states have a High Risk plan that you can buy into. They are intentionally affordable and subsidized by the standard payers. Usually the insurance companies have to cover a percentage of the High Risk pool equivalent to their percentage of market share in that state.
Change insurer for non-medical reasons (premium, employer change, so on)? Welcome to waitlist hell, and scrutinization for pre-existing conditions, even though the populace's preponderance for a given condition didn't change as a result of your enrollment.
Man... You life sucks. I've never been subjected to these circumstances despite changing providers at least 10 times.
It's a bastardized, one sided situation, and where health insurance is your ONLY realistic option, because collusion and collaboration between insurance providers has ensured that most healthcare rates are jacked up way out of the realm of ordinary affordability, it's very delineating, you either have, or you have not.
Agreed. To a certain extent. However, I have a great many people in my family that are dirt poor and have pre-existing conditions. We manage to get them care and coverage either through a Medicare/Medicaid plan, direct negotiation with healthcare providers, or channels through charities and/or no-profits. I have the poorest relatives that you could imagine, and I've yet to see one suffer from a condition because of money. Sometimes ignorance, often obstinence, but never money.
Pop Quiz: Do you really think your overnight stay in emergency had an actual cost of $12,000? Do you wonder why the same chiro treatment costs $50 without insurance, but they bill the insurance provider $165 for it? Do you think that the insurance carrier is covering that $115 out of the grace of their heart, or because they employ such amazingly stellar investment gurus that they can do so on the return from the dividend from your premiums?
Where's that bridge and that "for sale" sign?
It may take footwork, but you can get everything you need, even if you have something as horribly expensive to treat as Crohns.
Anecdotally, when I lived in London my future wife's flatmate had a sick grandmother that they flew out of country to get treatment because the last time she had the same sort of problem, she nearly died while waiting.
There's an elephant in the room that is being ignored. The AMA artificially limits the number of doctors and nurses available, which drives up prices. As the baby boomers age, it is going to get worse.
If you increase the supply of doctors and nurses, the shortage will decrease and prices will drop. Unfortunately, the AMA would switch from being a strong supporter of health-care reform to a strong opponent and it would be more difficult to pass.
false. You might want to rad the bill.
No wher ein the bill are the elderly denied health care. no. where . at. all.
Oops, Someone with facts on /., what is the world coming to.
The panel you mention is only there in case soeone wants to discuss the end of life plan.
Do you want to be on a respirator? then fine. You don't? then fine. and everything in between.
I've seen pretzel less twisted then that lie.
You go ahead and read you 'articles' but keep quite while the grown-ups are dealing with actual information. Let us know when your grown up enough to be a contributor to the debate.
Idiot.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
1. After cutting the upper-class taxes there was a recession. Regan did it in the 80s and Bush did it in the last decade. Each time the economy stagnated. Progressive policies are very good for the economy as Poor people spend money. That money revs up the economy and keeps it going. People saving money or investing money does not actually rev the economy in the same way but they get all the benefits (see link on growth of economy later in this post)
2. I agree that there is some problem in American school systems. But most of the problem is that American culture of apathy and short attention spans. Kids don't have the attention span to finis...
3. You talk abut how socialism is such a weak systems but Russia had essentially 3rd world infrastructure and yet was a superpower on par with the US for most of our lifes. I don't think we could have done the same given the same infrastructure as them with government that we have. Also most of Europe does quite well with higher standards of living. Also I grew up on welfare. None of my family is on welfare anymore but it was a critical service when dad walked off and refused to pay child support. Since my family has worked directly with the poor (Health services and counseling) I think I have a better idea of who receives welfare than you do. It is often those with medical problems, mental problems, or even drug problems. Drug problems you say? Well let them rot! Well that is the problem. You have a drug conviction and suddenly you can't get many jobs, or and you can't get funding for college. How and the hell do you handle these people? You either put them on welfare or you throw them in jail which is still state funded living. But yay you are still hard on crime and the war on drugs goes on! Rah rah!
But what really incensed me with your post was your assertion that people have an easier time getting ahead in America. BZZZT! Nice try the US is harder to advance out of poverty and it is getting harder all the time. For all our vaunted freedom you can move around in the middle class, but if you want to be an executive you really NEED be in the right class or society to get your funding or to land that job due to your uncle's connection. There are some people who manage to found a company and build it to that level, but what are we talking about one in ten million? I get better odds at the lottery.... Every company founder I personally have known has gotten kicked out when the company stabilized and an interm CEO (who gets along with the VC and board) has been appointed to manage the continued growth of the company. I have yet to personally meet someone who actually manages to fight off the wolves and make it past upper middle class. But hey, they exist, I mean we see them on TV.
And before you rip on my liberal ideal with no real world backing let me drop some links. http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/national/20050515_CLASS_GRAPHIC/index_03.html I see those darn Scandinavian countries are more upward mobile despite their socialist trends and higher standard of living! Yes click around on that link and you will see the US is actually HARDER to climb out of poverty. But don't worry your capitalistic master are having a great time jerking your leash. You know that when the economy is growing rapidly the middle class still shows no upward mobility? http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2006/04/b1579981.html but I guess the upper class sees great returns on their investments.
Basically the American dream is a great PR piece to help insure there is cheap labor to fill factories. But Rah Rah for Capitalism. The idea that giving the money to private companies is also fallacious they tend to be very good at maximizing profit. (FOR
Are you fucking serious? This guy is talking about a family member with a potentially life threatening illness that can't be treated due to inequitable nature of our society and you suggest he eat a zero carb diet?
Of course cancers feed off sugar, cancer is YOU gone haywire, your body metabolizes sugar preferentially and so would cancer. But just like the rest of your body, any cancer (other than a brain tumor, and your body WILL PRODUCE the glucose needed to feed your brain and then a brain tumor) could metabolize any other source of energy as well.
Let me guess, your suggestion to someone with a bad computer virus would be to unplug the PC as the virus feeds off of electricity.
Funny you mention this, my step-dad is dying (6 months to a year) of a cancer (bladder) with a pretty high remission rate that has metastitized because he decided to go the "natural medicine" route instead of chemo & radiation. One of the things the *quacks* he went to had him try was exactly what you mentioned. It's bullshit. The "alkaline-body" treatment is bullshit as well. The quacks that spread this nonsense are making money off killing people as far as I am concerned. He's now taking radiation, but basically, he's not going to make it.
There is a war going on for your mind.
What the fuck, even in the United Kingdom with the NHS for over 60 years now, there is a thriving private insurance industry, with private hospitals. Some employers even over private health insurance, and some people take it out privately.
This is clearly uninformed nonsense, along the lines of claiming that Stephen Hawkings would be dead under the NHS, when he is in fact British and gets excellent treatment without which he would be dead under the NHS.
The thing is that life expectancy is closely tied to your socioeconomic group. The top group in the USA has worse life expectancy and health outcomes than the lowest group in the UK, despite expenditure on health care in the USA being twice the percentage of GDP that it is in the UK.
I don't for one minute claim our health care system is perfect, but it is *FAR* less broken than the one in the USA.
No, because most of my countrymen are functional retards unfortunately.
There is a war going on for your mind.
Why do you feel entitled to freedom of speech? There is no such thing, inherently. There is no universal rule that you must be allowed to speak freely. If that right is taken from you and you're silenced, the universe will simply continue on as if nothing happened, save for the immediate differences it makes in your tiny little insignificant piece of this planet.
Some of us simply believe that in an affluent and supposedly just society we should view the situation as a moral prerogative. If you disagree, that's fine, but, frankly, it's a pretty crummy way to view the people around you. I tend to view human life as a little more valuable than that. Honestly, I've seriously tried to get my wife to leave this country because of people like you, though. What sense is there in living in a "society" that views its citizens with such incredible contempt that you would even think to say something so ridiculously callous and selfish? We might as well just revert to animalistic anarchy and let the strong cull the weak. A situation, I might add, you likely wouldn't survive (nor I).
I'm going to go ahead and say the odds are pretty well-stacked against that being true. I'm sure there are a very few people like that around, but if I had to bet and you really went to your deathbed, I'd go ahead and lay down a pretty heft sum that you're full of crap with that statement.
Like the people who value green paper in their wallet over an actual human's life?
Yeah, right. I'd like to go to the gym more often and lose some weight but I seem to be busy working two jobs to pay for other people's health problems and taxes for a whole bunch of other stupid failures of the craptacular government we have had for the last ten years.
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
"allocation of medical care based on "how valuable you are to the government"
I've got news for you - we already have that. The insurance company won't cover you, or you simply can't afford the rates they set, or the insurance company simply denies claims. In short, you only survive if you are valuable to some corporate headquarters, ie, they can see how to make a profit off your lame ass.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
The US has more immigration, for one thing
No, it doesn't:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/imm_net_mig_rat-immigration-net-migration-rate
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/imm_for_pop-immigration-foreign-population
I am officially gone from
It's really easy to blame insurance companies, especially since the Democrat party has been on the propaganda trail blaming the insurance companies, but they've actually been quite acquiescent about the whole thing.
this is the image they have cultivated, but its a lie.
The truth is while the insurance companies themselves claimed they were for reform, they shadow-funded several groups which are out there right now undermining reform and propagating lies through TV spots and astroturfing.
Hint: those TV spots you see talking gloom and doom are NOT from the RNC, and certainly not the democrats. Theyre the health reform version of "hands off the internet", the notorious anti-neutrality astroturfing group.
I can tell you as a person who is "uninsurable at any price" because of crohns while 600 lb men get coverage for gastric bypasses that the insurance companies ARE to blame, they are responsible for every single massive lie being propagated today. It's vicious, ugly, and criminal what they're doing to make sure people like me, who are crippled by easily managed chronic conditions, remain bankrupt and suffering.
You may not like their solutions, but that's ok, we can come up with a solution. But believing that a single payer system will magically solve everything is just silly. Such a drastic overhaul of any system is likely to cause more problems than it solves.
yes, there are so many horrible problems that every other industrialized nation has one, and anyone in those nations suggesting getting rid of them is marginalized as a dingbat (if they say so from a political office, they don't have it in the next year).
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
Your understanding is wrong. The US has less economic mobility than most developed nations.
Read this for more.
Oddly enough, generous funding for higher education and universal health care are two of the reasons for higher economic mobility elsewhere. At the time of the report, you were techinically right - the UK was about as bad as the US (and both lagged behind other European societies). Since then, the US has actually fallen even lower in mobility.
Negative sir. That's the honest truth. If I walked into the hospital tomorrow with no money, and a life ending ailment. I'd live out the rest of my life to the fullest, but I can accept death. I don't know why you can't accept that life ends... sometimes premature.
If you were drowning in a lake, and there were people standing by the lake who were capable of pulling you out and saving you, and those people just stood there - would you then accept death?
I suspect you'd spend your last few minutes being extremely pissed off and wondering why the hell they weren't throwing you a rope.
They weren't throwing you a rope because it was too much hassle, or too expensive.
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
Interesting feedback.
>> Mexicans use our Emergency Rooms for free and then go back to their country so they don't have to pay,
Same thing happens in UK, its just different races. At least your illegals go back home. Ours stay around for all the other free handouts our stupid government gives them, but they don't integrate or contribute anything back to our society. Then they try and force islam on us too.
>> Incidentally, the rate of organ transplants in the US is much higher than in Europe.
That doesn't necessarily sound like a good thing. I'm guessing it has a lot to do with the US obesity rate, and also the fact that your hospitals are almost completely profit-based. They can charge a fortune every time they do a transplant so of course they're going to push patients into costly surgery whenever they can.
A few years ago my UK doctor perscribed some muscle relaxant for a recurring back problem. The prescription cost me about 10 pounds ($16 USD). When I visited the US I got exactly the same prescription. It cost over $500 for 24 pills. If that isn't criminal exploitation by the US drug cartels then I don't know what is.
Do you wonder why the same chiro treatment costs $50 without insurance, but they bill the insurance provider $165 for it?
I can't speak for everyone, but I know why we bill that way: because the insurance companies will pay a set percentage of the "reasonable and customary" charge for each procedure performed. If that currently happens to be 30%, then a $50 procedure gets billed at $165 so that it actually gets reimbursed at $50. If notice comes down that the new rate is 25%, then expect that to go to $200 overnight. There's also the need to periodically raise rates above the reasonable and customer charge to pull the average upward. If everyone starts billing $200 for the $165 procedure, then insurance will only "allow" $165 at first and will reject the extra $35. After a few years, they'll adjust the allowance to some multiple of the new rate.
Yes, it's horribly screwed up. That's still better than travesties like Medicaid that often reimburses for procedures at less than the cost of the supplies needed to perform them. Yes, you read that right. There are certain billing codes that Medicaid pays at about 5 to 10 percent of what insurance would. It's hard to make up profits with volume when you are literally, tangibly losing money on each treatment. That's why almost no doctors will see new Medicaid patients without a referral from a colleague. Every doctor I know does a lot of free/charity work, but you have to save some time for paying patients if you want to keep the doors open.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
Homicides rates are higher among the poor -- particularly drug related murder, and the murder of a teenager in a drug incident has a disproportionate affect on life expectancy. That said, the rate of death by homicide is *tiny* in relation to other causes of death.
For some reason economic based breakdowns of things like accidents are hard to find. Race and ethnicity based data is easier. Blacks don't die from accidents a higher rate than whites -- in fact the rates are nearly identical. Race isn't a very good stand-in for income, but since blacks are generally less prosperous, we'd expect the rates to be higher. Rates for accidents *are* higher for Latinos, but that may reflect the large number of Latinos that are employed in agriculture, which is dangerous. Latinos are on average less prosperous than the rest of the US.
So accidents and violence probably *do* contribute to the discrepancy, but not hugely.
But if you really want to go where the rubber hits the life-expectancy road, look at infant mortality. A recent study (doi: 10.2105/AJPH.2004.040287) found a very significant correlation between low income and infant mortality in New York (p 0.0005), but *no* correlation in Tokyo or Paris and a barely significant correlation in London (p 0.05).
It's not really all that mysterious. People who don't have access to health care are more likely to die, and in the US that's more likely to be a poor, uninsured person. You don't need to imagine all kinds of mysterious reasons for the discrepancy. There *are* of course other factors that contribute, but that isn't necessarily a cause for celebration.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
have you ever dealt with an hmo?
do you know how much paperwork are current system entails? how much money is wasted in the shuffling around of forms between entities and fighting about line item approved and denieds?
a government system would be chock full of bureaucratic waste, just as you say
and it would still be more efficient and less wasteful than what we currently have!
wake the fuck up you propagandized fool
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Because you should be able to buy fire insurance after your house burns down.
Do you have the slightest clue how insurance works?
Here's what would happen if fire insurance were like health insurance.
Under this system fire insurance is provided by your employer, who gets a group discount from the insurance companies. Neither your employer nor the insurance company is allowed to disclose how much the insurance costs, because they both consider it a trade secret. Once a year, in November, you get the chance to change your fire insurance company if you are unhappy with them. But since you probably haven't had a fire, what is there to be unhappy about?
If you lose your job, you lose your fire insurance but the insurance company is required by law to allow you to pay an exorbitant sum to continue your insurance for 6 months. They will also allow you to buy a cheaper plan, which will replace your house with a tent if it burns down. By the way, the most common way to lose your job is to have a house fire.
If you are self employed or unemployed, you might be able to buy insurance. It will be much more expensive than the group plans that employers get. You will also be disqualified if you have had a fire in the past, smoke, or have been seen with matches or a cigarette lighter.
The way the fire insurance system works is that your insurance company will provide you a list of twenty fire inspectors. You are required to have a fire inspector in order to get access to a fire station. You will call all twenty and their secretaries will tell you that they aren't taking any new clients. You will eventually get taken on by one of them because your mother is one of his clients.
The inspector is paid a flat fee per year per client by the insurance company. He gets paid this amount whether he inspects your home or not. Each time he does inspect your home he might get a small payment from the insurance company, but you need to give him a $20 additional payment. This is to encourage you not to get your home inspected. If your home has apparent problems that need further investigation, the inspector does not get additional payments from the insurance company. If your home needs repairs to prevent a fire, the insurance company will pay for them, but the inspector might get charged a fee for referring you to a contractor. This is to encourage your fire inspector not to refer you to a contractor to perform repairs.
The fire inspector contracts with a fire station to handle emergencies. It might not be the closest fire station to your home. None of the firefighters working at the fire station are employees of the fire station. They are all independent contractors who are paid by the person who has a fire, or by the insurance company. The only employees at the fire station are the 35 people they have on staff to handle billing the 65 insurance companies that they contract with.
If you have a fire, the first thing you do is call your fire inspector. If he agrees that there is a fire, he will call the insurance company to get authorization to call the fire station. Some fraction of the time these authorizations will be denied.
When the fire station gets the call they will also call the insurance company for authorization. When each fireman gets to the house, they will ask for a copy of your insurance card before putting out the fire. If any of the people involved forgets to get authorization, they won't be paid by the insurance company. They will either bill you, or eat the expenses.
Fortunately it was just a minor fire entirely contained in a frying pan. After the fire has been put out, and a contractor has started repairs, you will receive a bunch of bills that have "THIS IS NOT A BILL" written on them. You will get one from each fireman, one from the fire station, one from your fire inspector, one from the contractor who is repairing your house and one from each of the construction workers the contractor has hired. They will come wit
Support SETI@home
It's not like we don't have figures for this.
Some figures put the obesity related excess costs at around 147 billion. That's a lot of money, but we're still only talking 6% of our total health care expenditures. It doesn't explain why we spend multiple times what other countries spend to get worse outcomes.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
I think it's kind of funny the way conservatives maintain that the public option will be so crappy it's worse than nothing AND it will destroy the market for private insurance AT THE SAME TIME!
Isn't it obvious? First they'll check if you're a Christian(TM). Then they'll see if you're a Republican(R). Then they'll check if you Love Freedom(c). The second you trigger their commi-socalo-facist True Blue Patriot detector, you'll be as good as dead. I watch Fox News! I listen to conservative radio! I'm a member of the K^CNRA. I know what's going on!! You can't fool me!!! This is socialism!!! SOCALISM!!! Our great nation is being taken over by the Soviets!!!! Pretty soon we'll all be speaking Russian!!!!!!!!!!!! I've got my Rifle and the Lord At My Side!! I'm ready to DEFEND the Homeland!! RONNIE!!!! Can you HEAR meee?!?!?! I'm FIGHTN' For Ya Ronnie!! You and Dick Nixon and George W. Bush!!!!
GOD SAVE FREEDOM!!!!!!111
WWWOOOOOOSSSHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
May the Maths Be with you!
No, you are missing the point, which is that the gulf is getting wider: "There was a steady increase in mortality inequality across the US counties between 1983 and 1999, resulting from stagnation or increase in mortality among the worst-off segment of the population."
Which facts argue in favor of capitalist health care? You haven't cited any. Costs are lower and life expectancy is higher in countries with socialist health care. Can you dispute that, or do you simply feel the ideological considerations are more important?
Hi. Canadian here. Not sure where you're getting your numbers. The idea that Canadians have more firearms per-capita than Americans is something that needs a really really good citation. This article from Reuters says the US has 90 guns per 100 Americans and Canada has 30 guns per hundred Canadians. I did find a reference to your murder rate numbers.
"the US has more people who have no coverage than the entire population of Canada" - Um, I think California has more people than the entire population of Canada - yep, Wikipedia says California has 36.7 million and Canada has 31.6 million. So this is a pointless statement.
Now, there has been a lot of misinformation in the US news about Canada, and particularly the Canadian health care system. First of all, the system being proposed in the US is *not* a universal health care system like Canada has. In my opinion, as a person who has used both a US "HMO" and the Canadian system, the Canadian system only works because (a) you can't "get ahead" by scamming the health care system. Remember the Canadian system doesn't include medications, so there's no scamming pain meds or anything. You basically get doctor's visits and hospital visits paid for. Not sure about you, but I want to spend as little time in those places as possible, so there's little incentive for people to "scam more health care" from the system, and (b) EVERYONE has to use the system. This includes the hospital administrators, the politicians, their families, etc. There's a built in incentive for everyone to make the system work well, because everyone has to use it at some point in their life.
I'm a fiscal conservative, so public health care is something I look on skeptically, but I have to tell you that the Canadian system is brilliant. It needs constant supervision and tweaking, but it really is great. I've started to realize that while I'm generally pro-market, the one place I really think it makes sense to socialize is any type of insurance. Look at insurance this way: everyone is supposed to agree to share the cost of some high risk, low occurrence event, like theft, fire, accident, or health related expense. In an ideal world, the amount paid to cover expenses is equal to the amount that people have to put into the pot, perhaps adjusted by their risk level (so choosing to live in an earthquake zone or choosing to smoke might cost you more). Obviously it takes effort to administer such a program (you have to prevent fraud, keep track of the money, etc.) but this shouldn't be much more than the overhead expense of a well run charity, some of which frequently have administrative expense ratios below 5%. But then you throw insurance companies into the mix and they realize that their entire reason for existing (profit) is to maximize the amount going into the pot and minimize the amount going out. Therefore, they hire armies of lawyers, draft convoluted insurance policies, spend exorbitant sums on marketing, and ultimately none of that money and effort is being spent on bettering the world, like it would be if we spent it building infrastructure or investing in new technologies, like "good" companies do. The number I've seen is that insurance companies have administrative ratios of 30% to 50%.
If you go into my doctor's office in Canada, there is one woman behind the counter doing all the paperwork for the entire practice. Walk into a US doctor's office and there's at least 3. That's because if you're a doctor in Canada, you have one insurance company to deal with, and if you're a doctor in the US you have hundreds, and you have to narrow it down to maybe 30 or 40 that you're going to deal with. You have to be familiar with all those different forms, etc. That a huge overhead expense, and it doesn't contribute to providing the patient with better healthcare (indeed, it makes it harder to get effective
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
The system under discussion when we talk about the "public option" isn't anywhere near a single-payer system
You are absolutely correct... for now. Individuals will have a choice as to stay with their current private coverage or to go with the new government option (now called "public option).
Of course, the government option will have to be as good as any private insurance, right? Otherwise why have it? If health insurance is a right, then everyone, regardless of income should have equal access to it.
Next, it will have to cheaper than private insurance. The whole point is universal coverage. That means the poor should be able to afford it as well. The only way the poor will be able to afford it is if it's cheap. How do you make it cheap? Well, tax the rich, of course. (Obama has already stated that this is how it will be paid for)
So now you have a competitor to the private sector that is just as good or better than the private sector, at half the cost. It is financed by the American taxpayer so it can profit is not a concern. For that matter, it doesn't have to break even. It can lose billions of dollars every single year and it does not matter. Oh, and it can make it's own rules because it has the backing of the United States Congress. They are the people who write laws.
Now tell me. How long do you think it will take before every private health insurance company is out of business? Obama says 10, 15 or 20 years.(watch the whole thing, but it's about 50 seconds in where he says eventually, he plans for there to be a single payer system.)
Handing anybody power over life and death is worthy of close examination, but the fact is, someone will have to do it. It's far from clear that the government is any less trustworthy than the private sector, and it's at least theoretically more accountable.
If an insurance company screws over enough of its customers, word gets out and it loses its customers and goes out of business. It has to keep a vast majority of its customers happy or they'll become the competition's customers.
But you are correct about one thing. If there is going to be a single payer system, I would prefer that the monopoly be the government and not some corporation. But we don't have a monopoly now and we won't if we keep the government out of it.
With that said, I agree that there needs to be reform. For example, I don't believe an insurance company should allowed to consider your health history when providing coverage or deciding what to charge. They should not be allowed to drop a customer for any reason other than lack of payment, and in the case of unemployment due to the illness, the government should pick up those payments as part of unemployment benefits. But we don't need the government to compete directly with the insurance companies.
There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
Calling Sarah Palin a moron is insulting to morons everywhere.
Palin is the assumed leader of a highly retarded group of people. When she speaks of death panels or really anything, the rest of us talk about it, sure. But we are mostly laughing at her while we wondering how could she possibly be this retarded. Trust me, this is not a good thing and nothing to be proud of.
And since I'm burning karma anyway lemme toss another sacred cow onto the grill. Enough with this continual blather about the 'disadvantaged/poor/etc.' if you nitwits aren't going to deal with the actual problem. To a very high degree of correlation, the 'poor' aren't living in poverty because of a lack of money. They lack money because they have make poor lifestyle decisions that RESULT in a lack of money. Things like failure to get an education (or worse reject the value of knowledge entirely), become a single parent, waste money on substance abuse or Xbox... but I repeat myself.
Wall Street Journal reported that generational class mobility -- how likely it is for someone born poor will die middle class -- is lower in the US than Europe, even though the rags-to-riches story is ingrained, even intrinsic, to the American Dream. Why is that? Are we to believe that Americans are lazier than their "socialist" "nanny state" European brethren? I doubt that. In fact, if one was to take the conservative talking points at face value, the European-style social safety nets would discourage economic mobility. So what gives? Well, European poor are healthier, due to easy and affordable access to health care, thus allowing them to work more. They have better access to daycare, thus enabling them to find a job, instead of being forced to stay home with children.
You repeat the canard, that the poor are all lazy that fritter away their money, ironically on luxuries (alcohol, drugs, video games, etc.), but what does the science actually reveal? says that 27% of income of the working poor is left after housing, food, and commuting expenses. The working poor income is defined as less than $8000 a year, so that's $2160 a year, so $180 a month. So where does that $180 go? Well perhaps University of Akron chart will help. $50 for child care, and the rest for "housekeeping supplies, apparel and services, and personal care products and services" And the end ? $-81.
You clearly have no interest in actually reading a study of what's going on, because "reality has a well known liberal bias."
So, when you drive, do you build your own road? If someone burgles you, do you conduct your own investigation? It's not an affront to your pride to accept Government run healthcare, any more than it is to use Government-run libraries, schools, etc.
You DO realize that poor folks die because of their diet, which is often all they can afford, yes? And folks 'fall through the cracks' pretty much every damned day. Next week I'll be burying my sisters ashes. You know what the cause was? lack of copper. Yep, she got butchered by a lousy surgeon and couldn't absorb copper naturally anymore. because my state has a 250K malpractice cap, nobody would take her case. And because Medicaid says copper isn't necessary they wouldn't pay for it, and at more than $1600 a month for the copper and vitamin infusions even with me helping we simply couldn't afford it. She was 36 BTW, with two teenage boys in case you were wondering.
So i doubt very seriously you have been poor or seen what it was like to be caught under the wheels of the American medical situation. I have buried 2 friends so far for things that would have been preventable if they could afford a doctor or decent food, and like I said I bury my sister next week. Here in the rural south folks are often only able to afford the cheapest (read fattiest)cuts of meat and bulk like potatoes. Also after working 12 hours in a shitty dead end job they are too tired to fix more than just the most basic of meals.
And frankly with the flood of illegals taking the "strong back" jobs that the uneducated poor used to take like construction, and more and more of our educated jobs being sent overseas or given to H1-Bs, I honestly don't see how you expect the average Joe to pay for health care short of a government run plan. Or do you honestly think they can afford quality health care while working at Wendy's?
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
I don't know why you would think that Europe won't intervene.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/4420446/Premature-births-cost-the-NHS-almost-1-billion-a-year.html
80000 premature births in the UK
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/prematurebabies.html
480000 premature births in the US.
Adjusted for population they look very similar to me.
The fact is that the NHS will treat every and all premature birth. It will also treat every and all pregnant mothers (unless you elect to pay to go privately) If there is skewing of the statistics due to infant mortality I'd think it was the other way with babies not being taken to hospital in the US until it is too late.
Tim.
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = -@B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.
Of course, the government option will have to be as good as any private insurance, right? Otherwise why have it?
Because a whole lot of working class people DON'T have it.
Next, it will have to cheaper than private insurance. The whole point is universal coverage. That means the poor should be able to afford it as well.
The current system gives no health care to the poor at all until it's too late. Then they're admitted to the emergency room, where thousands or even hundreds of thousands of dollars are spent on them despite the fact that they're past helping. The indigent actually have insurance; it's called "Medicaid". It's the upper lower class and the middle class who can't afford insurance and who can't get medical care until it's both too late and incredibly expensive.
I'd point to my late friend Linda, but she's not a good example. She stayed away from the doctor out of fear; had she seen a doctor I don't know if she could have been saved ot not, but she would have suffered a lot less. But in her case it wasn't the system's fault.
I now know you can die of cowardace. But may who who could be saved and WOULD seek medical treatment can't. You're paying for this, as the hospital eats the cost of treatment for those without insurance as part of their operating expenses. You insurance company is paying for people who they're not insuring, and that cost is passed on to you in the form of your insurance premiums.
That's why the US dosn't have the highest life expectancy, and why it has the highest cost per capita. There is no more wasteful system on earth.
Well, tax the rich, of course
See above. You're already paying a tax, only the government doesn't collect it, your insurance company does.
So now you have a competitor to the private sector that is just as good or better than the private sector, at half the cost.
The insurance companies' costs go down, because they're no longer paying for patients who aren't insured.
It is financed by the American taxpayer so it can profit is not a concern.
That also cuts costs -- the middleman is gone.
Oh, and it can make it's own rules because it has the backing of the United States Congress
The insurance companies make the rules now. Congress is accountable to YOU, the insurance companies are only accountable to their stockholders.
How long do you think it will take before every private health insurance company is out of business?
Not soon enough, in my opinion. They're nothing more than parasites.
If an insurance company screws over enough of its customers, word gets out and it loses its customers and goes out of business.
Nope, because most of its customers don't have a choice -- you're insured by whatever company your employer decides on.
I agree with the rest of your post.
Free Martian Whores!
If you really did just pay your own way for everything you'd get absolutely nowhere and be living in a cave rubbing two sticks together to make a fire. The whole point about society is that everyone depends to some extent on everyone else.
Maybe you have a car, or a truck that you have been lucky enough to afford to buy. The reason you could afford to buy it is because hundreds of thousands of other people have bought the same truck allowing the manufacturers to bring the price down to something you could afford. To live truly according to your purported principles you'd eschew this sort of communist system and contract someone to build you a truck entirely from scratch relying on nothing developed by anyone else. Good luck affording to buy that truck !
Actually you should read up on glucose metabolism. Your body does not make glucose EVER except from the carbohydrates you eat. There is no other magical way you get glucose.
It's not magic, just chemistry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluconeogenesis
Your body will break down your own fat or use fat from your diet and use that to fuel your brain. It's not the preferred energy source for your brain but it will work.
Your body _will_ make glucose from other substrates, because it's the energy source that the brain needs. Also, your red blood cells _cannot_ use anything but glucose for their energy needs. Blood glucose levels need to be kept in the right range, or you'll die - regardless of the availability of other energy sources.
So what you're saying is that the GOVERNMENT RUN MEDICAID program wouldn't pay for her treatment, and that the only answer to that is a GOVERNMENT RUN PLAN?
Sorry about your sister, but think about what you're saying.
I'm saying that there is no mutherfucking reason why simple copper and vitamins in a saline solution, without even requiring a nurse or doctor to give it (my sis had a port and my mom is a nurse) should cost $1600+ fucking dollars, that is what I am saying!
Your "free market" shit don't work in medicine, just as it don't work in teleco. It don't work because a few companies have gotten "too big to fail" and the whole thing has devolved into a "fuck them harder than they are fucking me" between the drug manufacturers and the insurance companies with the working poor getting fucked by all.
And isn't it funny how so much of the civilized world can actually afford health care for all, while the USA, a supposed 'superpower" has so many of its people living like a third world country, with more ending up down every day? Maybe if we didn't have bloodsucking leeches and legal bribery....err I mean lobbying by major insurance companies and drug manufacturers we wouldn't be in this mess. And the truly sad part is so many of those that are now listed as disabled could actually work if they could afford their medication. I have a relative right now who is extremely bright and could work instead of being stuck at home on disability, but the medication that keeps him from being crippled costs $89000! and he will lose it if he goes to work, since all the education in the world won't give him a starting pay that will allow him to feed himself and pay for his medication.
So PLEASE for my sister, my cousin, and all those that are currently being buttraped by the medical system, quit believing the crap you see on Faux Spews. Sure if you are rich the system works, but the gutting of the middle class is quickly turning this country into another Brazil, where the poor live in wretched squalor while the rich enjoy their new Hummer. Sadly this country is fulfilling the punch line from the late George Carlin's joke all too often now- "You know why they call it the American Dream? Because you have to be asleep to believe in it".
As for the one who expressed his sympathies, thank you. The worst part is their dad got hooked on drugs when they were little (which is why I call them "my boys", because I had to fill the father role almost since birth) and now that he has gotten clean and sober they most likely won't get a chance to really know him as he has hepatitis C and if he doesn't get approved for disability soon he will die because he simply can't afford to live. He of course can no longer hold a job since the hep C has made him so bloated he looks like a corpse that has been left in the sun, and the constant puking isn't something most companies will want around.
So in all likelihood the boys will lose both parents sooner than they need to because they simply can't afford to survive in our current situation. It is bad enough now that my late sister's doctor says they even have a name for it -"CATL" which stands for "Can't afford to live", which he says he sees all to often as folks can't afford anything but ER care, which is often too little too late. How fucking sad that in this country we should even have an acronym like that.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.