Game Over For Sony and Open Source?

Glyn Moody writes "Sony has never been much of a friend to hackers, and its infamous rootkit showed what it thought of users. But by omitting the option to install GNU/Linux on its new PS3, it has removed the final reason for the open source world to care about Sony. Unless, of course, you find Google's new distribution alliance with Sony to pre-install Chrome on its PCs exciting in some way."

Comments

Who Cares

[MightyMartian]

Buy a damned computer, or one of the mobiles you can install Linux on.

Re:Who Cares

[PrescriptionWarning]

without the use of most of the computing power when you actually put linux on it, it seemed gimped to begin with. In other words they weren't exactly being open source friendly from the start any way.

Re:Who Cares

[vadim_t]

A console is a computer, just with annoying restrictions tacked on.

But generally good advice, that's why I don't buy consoles in general, and avoid Sony like the plague.

Re:Who Cares

[zindorsky]

Buy a damned computer, or one of the mobiles you can install Linux on.

Maybe you should RTFA before posting ...

Of course there are a million machines you can install Linux on, but the PS3 was particularly nice because of its Cell architecture. That allowed for some super-computer like performance for a low, low price. Lots of research institutions used PS3 clusters for low cost supercomputing. Now that future is jeopardized.

Re:Who Cares

[sopssa]

From the article

Sony explained their decision on the Playstation 2 developer forum, in a post that has since been removed:

"The reasons are simple: The PS3 Slim is a major cost reduction involving many changes to hardware components in the PS3 design. In order to offer the OtherOS install, SCE would need to continue to maintain the OtherOS hypervisor drivers for any significant hardware changes--this costs SCE. One of our key objectives with the new model is to pass on cost savings to the consumer with a lower retail price. Unfortunately in this case the cost of OtherOS install did not fit with the wider objective to offer a lower cost PS3."

And this is understable, seeing how much PS3 price has come down from its launch.

Old PS3 owners still have the option, it just affects the 'slim' model.

Re:Who Cares

[msimm]

Funny isn't it, if a console is just a small computer wrapped in a larger DRM layer.

Re:Who Cares

[nomadic]

A console is a computer, just with annoying restrictions tacked on.

But much cheaper, and with far less software glitches.

Re:Who Cares

[sunderland56]

For how many more months will the Old PS3 remain available with a hardware warranty?

If you're interested in running Linux on a PS3, you probably already own one. If you don't, Sony has given you fair warning to get a "chubby" PS3 while they are still available.

Besides, I don't think this is going to stop anyone from running Linux on the slim PS3. It's not like the iPhone comes with a "install other OS" option in the boot code.

Re:Who Cares

[Toonol]

But it's DRM that has been completely inoffensive and pain-free. That's the difference. I don't have a problem with copy protection. I wouldn't mind nailed down DRM on my pc, if it simply stopped games from being copied. The problem with DRM on the pc is that it goes further than that... it tracks you, it breaks things, it modifies your setup, it takes away legitimate functionality, it hinders free development... It ends up being the Sony rootkit, which should have put some Sony execs in jail.

If DRM meant that I always had to put the Starcraft 2 dvd in my computer when I wanted to play it, and NO OTHER RESTRICTION, I might actually buy the game. Instead, DRM seems to mean 'contact Blizzard every game for permission to play. Here's my IP, battlenet ID, etc., etc...'.

Sigh. I'm sure console games will eventually go that route, though.

Re:Who Cares

[Khyber]

The Slim PS3 might be more hackable without the hypervisor being around. Odds are greater that one could better unlock the power of the PS3 since there's no hypervisor restricting access to the hardware directly.

Re:Who Cares

[jpmorgan]

Nobody uses the PS3 for supercomputing these days. The ugly secret of the PS3 is that its 'extreme performance' was mostly marketing. While it was fairly fast at release, it is ridiculously complex to code for. You're talking about a machine with 9 distinct memory spaces, 4 instruction sets and 3 compilers. And while Sony may market it as having '2 teraflops' of performance, it only has about 450gflops of total programmable computation power. The vaunted Cell processor only clocks in at around 250GFlops, which you get pretty easily with Core i7 (Nehalem)... and it's a LOT easier to get peak performance out of the Core i7. Let me repeat that for emphasis it is mindbogglingly simpler to get peak performance out of the Core i7. And if you're willing to spend more a little time and money to code to a specialized platform, GPU computing with CUDA (and OpenCL once it matures) spanks the Cell. You can buy multi-GPU machines from NVidia that are pushing 4 teraflops programmable.

Ultimately though, the biggest killer of the PS3 in supercomputing is all that power is single precision, and single precision only. You can get away with single precision SOMETIMES in scientific computing, but more often than not it's a deal breaker. Even when you can use single precision, it's often in a mixed precision context. The PS3 has no double precision support, and that kills it.

The PS3 is awesome on paper, but in reality it's just awful.

Re:Who Cares

[jpmorgan]

Oh, and I should add that in Linux you have no access to the GPU. So you only have the Cell's 250GFlops of programmable performance, unless you're a game developer.

Re:Who Cares

[Chees0rz]

Exactly. The console experience (especially now-a-days) is beautiful... I really have no complaints about the user experience. I especially love those blue tooth controllers. Everything is standardized and you know it will just work.

Maybe PCs are catching up, and I just don't know it? But I don't feel compelled to have a PC hooked up to my TV just to play games... especially when the only input device I have is a keyboard/mouse...

(are game controllers standardized, and usable for every game? Not sure...)

Re:Who Cares

[Anonymous Coward]

Pain free? have you ever heard of titles breaking, or that you have to pay for every add-on that PC users get free, or that you can't upgrade your hardware like a PC and constantly stay up to date?

Both systems have the same problems with DRM, no need to delude yourself thinking that the problems with DRM are lesser with a console. Console DRM is 100x worse in general, and costs more too. $60 PS3 vs $40PC for the same game? easy answer. Guess which one can get bluray later, and guess which one is now losing linux support supposedly.

Re:Who Cares

[VGPowerlord]

Ooh, bad idea mentioned Orange Box.

EA ported Orange Box to PS3 and Valve refuses to support it.

That's not such a big deal for most of the games in it (excepting performance problems), but Team Fortress 2 has had continuing updates on the PC platform (and the Xbox 360 version has even had a few bugfix patches).

Re:Who Cares

[thtrgremlin]

all you are saying is that proprietary restrictions work both ways, which is exactly one of the issues brought up by FOSS promoters about proprietary software. The Commodore, Amiga, Atari, and others of their time were "computers" or "consoles" based on what was desired by the USER. Today, users PAY console / SDK developers to provide "protections" against open third party development to provide an incentive of non-competition to large gaming companies by ensuring that the only games / software is going to be on a shelf next to their own product released by other big game companies that also had to pay big licencing fees. Sony doesn't care how many games for their system are sold other then its relationship to potential future licencing agreements. Units sold tell game makers how large their market is to determine cost benefit of buying the licence and producing / porting a game.

So just because despite everything inside of it being the same as any other desktop / laptop mix of parts that happens to have an IBM Power7 CPU for which WINDOWS will never be ported doesn't change anything. Does something become a "PC" when MS whack pack signs the drivers?

But of course, many arcade machines still running today have worn out, been gutted, had their entrails replaced with a Linux Server running MAME. So maybe it would be most accurate to say that consoles are arcade machines with annoying unnecessary restrictions tacked on.

But well said; on the upside you could probably put something like that on your resume and get a job at Sony, or even Apple or Microsoft in no time. Hell, you could probably get elected to public office.

Re:Who Cares

[thtrgremlin]

You aren't very familiar with Sony, are you?

Re:Who Cares

[guruevi]

Never owned an X-Box I see. I don't own an X-Box either but against my advice my brother-in-law did and he has had nothing but trouble with it. He had it in and out of service for 5 months, this is his fourth X-Box in less than 2 years (warranty) and now it's eating his disks. The disks are not under warranty. Too bad he can't make a backup copy of them.

Re:Who Cares

[nog_lorp]

So, you've never had a scratched disk and been forced to shell out another $60 bucks to get a game you already own?

I also find it offensive and painful when I can't run my own code on my computer.

Re:Who Cares

[nog_lorp]

PS: development machines and SDKs costing thousands of dollars tends to hinder free development.

Re:Who Cares

[CronoCloud]

Never had a scratched disc, perhaps the people complaining that they need "backups" in case they scratch the discs need to take care of their valuable things better.

Re:Who Cares

[CronoCloud]

Yes, LInux on the PS3 runs under a hypervisor, but your information is quite incorrect. You have full access to the dual threaded PPC core (with Altivec) and it runs at the full 3.2 GHz speed. You also have full access to 6 SPE's. What you don't have is full access to the RSX, only framebuffer, but that's okay if you only want to do serious number crunching as a researcher. They use off the shelf PS3 hardware.

Re:Who Cares

[RiotingPacifist]

The guy that owned the xbox and compromised the xbox360 security, claimed the only reason that the ps3 was safe from pirates was because they let you run all your otherOS/homebrew stuff, it will be interesting to see if this happens or if
1) homebrew are happy using the older consoles
2) homebrew try but fail to cack it
3) pirates crack the new (weaker) ps3 without homebrew's help

Re:Who Cares

[nxtw]

Some Windows games have special support for Xbox 360 controllers, I believe mainly those that are also released for the Xbox 360. The controls automatically map and force feedback works in the same way as it does on the Xbox - you just have to load the game. Of course, you need a special adapter to use an Xbox 360 wireless controller on a PC, as these do not use Bluetooth.

I've seen Fallout 3 on a PC and on the Xbox 360. The PC was a unremarkable Core 2 Duo system with a Radeon HD 4670 (which cost $90 back in late 2008). The game was played on a 40" 1080p LCD TV. The PC completely blew the Xbox 360 away, graphics-wise. Although the Xbox 360 can output at 1080p, it renders most games at lower resolutions and then scales. The PC rendered the game at 1080p and at a higher framerate. Even with AA disabled on the PC, the picture was significantly better. The PC was also quieter, used less electricity, loaded the game faster, and (when using suspend to RAM) powered on faster.

Re:Who Cares

[Quarters]

My rerfigerator is a a computer. My thermostat is a computer. My car's engine has a computer. My remote control is a computer. I don't get persnickety about not being able to Linux on those devices. Why should I, or anyone else, get upset that I can't put Linux on a console? The other poster is right. If you want to install Linux and use it buy a device that lets you easily install and run arbitrary code. You'll never achieve the mythical "year Linux takes over the desktop" if you keep wasting time trying to put it on everything *BUT* desktop computers.

Re:Who Cares

[Moryath]

3) pirates crack the new (weaker) ps3 without homebrew's help

Why not 4) homebrew and pirates work together semi-implicitly to crack the new (weaker) PS3 as happened with the Wii?

The Wii's "pirate" and "homebrew" crowds are not that different. Yes, there are the standouts (like marcan, whose definition of "piracy" often puts him at odds even with other people normally considered homebrewers, such as people who enjoy rewriting/redrawing banners for the hell of it and eventually led to the modern "bannerbomb" hack) but for the most part the question is not "what" they do, but "with what intentions." For instance, a utility capable of installing a homebrew game is usually equally capable of installing a copied download title. A utility to preserve "non-preservable" save games (like Super Mario Galaxy's save file, which for some inexplicable reason won't normally let users copy it to the flash card for safekeeping/transport) can easily upload hacked files full of cheat codes or worse. Little bits of code here and there have all sorts of purposes.

It's my guess that we'll see the "pirate" and "homebrew" circles working together, especially the emulator crowds (countdown to a PS3 snes9x port, just for the fun of it?). And they'll crack the new PS3, likely in a way that cracks the old "chubby" PS3 as well, at which point there'll be a softmod for the PS3.

Re:Who Cares

[Khyber]

If every PS3 game you own is an exclusive then you're just a fanboy.

Last count, out of 130 titles I've looked at, 82 have either a PC port or were originally developed on PC and ported to PS3.

They said Metal Gear Solid 4 was going to be PS3 exclusive - guess what bucko? 360's about to get it.

Re:Who Cares

[Gizzmonic]

Pain free? have you ever heard of titles breaking,

On a console? Is that like when PC games are released early in the alpha stage and the first 3 months are so are devoted to patching the game into a somewhat-workable state? And a broken console can't stop me from doing work (at least not directly, heh heh) but a broken PC means not only can I not play games, I probably can't work either.

or that you have to pay for every add-on that PC users get free,

Ah, but you can sell your console games when you're finished (for the most part). That's much better to me than getting some crappy after-the-fact add-ons.

or that you can't upgrade your hardware like a PC and constantly stay up to date?

You mean that crushing feeling you get when your PC that used to be bleeding edge gets sloooower and sloooower every time you install a newer game? Don't miss it.

Re:Who Cares

[RiotingPacifist]

I don't know much beyond what ive read of the xbox scene, but homebrewers are the kind of people that are going to put timer chips on motherboards, patch kernels, code simple games, exploit and generally do clever things, pirates just trick a console into thinking that it is playing a legit game. (again AFAIK) The xbox360 has pretty bulletproof, however 1 hole was found (by homebrew, to run linux on it) as a result the encryption keys for the cd drives where swiped and now pirates have produced modchips for piracy. Sometimes (from what i read here) the relationship is more symbiotic but basically all the hardwork is done by the homebrew scene. I think the wii is a special case as it was soo easy to crack and the GC already had its piracy tools, as soon as the homebrew guys got in the pirates followed.

The PS has always had an established piracey crowd, IMO its why they beat N64s, however afaik as of now, there is no piracy on the ps3, the major difference between xbox360 and the ps3 was that linux/homebrew had a place on the ps3.

Re:Who Cares

[Toonol]

Pain free? have you ever heard of titles breaking, or that you have to pay for every add-on that PC users get free, or that you can't upgrade your hardware like a PC and constantly stay up to date?

I honestly don't mind buying a new game if I break it. That's the way it works with all my OTHER stuff.

Paying for add-ons is lame, and I don't do it. It's not deceptive, though, and takes no control away from me.

And I don't need to upgrade my hardware to stay up to date because that concept doesn't exist in the console world. A three year old 360 is no more out of date than a brand new 360. There's no games coming out that my console can't run; it's not slowly becoming obsoleted. I don't have to run and send in order to stay in place, like I do in the pc world.

I'm defending the consoles, but I like playing pc games, too. Less and less, though, because it's just a headache. People bitch about the 360's red-ring rate... I'd like to see stats on how many brand new gaming computers are running without serious problems three years later. (Not anecdotes. Stats.)

And both users of PS3 Linux were sad

[Anonymous Coward]

It didn't sell them any significant number of new PS3's. That they did it for the first generation was fine, but it's not a contract they signed in blood.

Cost/Benefit

[TJ_Phazerhacki]

RTFA. Sony has chosen not to maintain the Hypervisor for the new hardware. You can still run linux on the old systems, and they do not plan to disable that feature. This isn't open source hate, it's a practical business decision by a company that loses money every time they sell a console. They made the console cheaper.

Re:Cost/Benefit

[Aladrin]

And stopped people from buying it that weren't going to buy games and accessories with it.

Yes, some gamers also installed Linux, but there were -many- people who bought it just to install Linux, for various reasons. Each of those sales was an absolute loss for Sony and it doesn't make sense to encourage it.

I don't blame them one bit. Besides, I installed linux and it wasn't a very good experience on the PS3, between horrible installs and slowness and general awkwardness like having to choose what to load on reboot/etc. I ended up just putting a PC in the room instead.

Re:Cost/Benefit

[VGPowerlord]

I hate to say it, but Sony probably lost more PS3 sales by removing the PS2 compatibility than they did removing the ability to run Linux.

Re:Cost/Benefit

[CronoCloud]

I agree, anyone who wanted to run Linux on a PS3 probably already has one. The slim model is not aimed at Sony's hardcore fanbase (who probably wanted backwards compatibility and already have a PS3) or open source geeks, but those who don't have one already.

Sony said something similar when they released the slim PS2 without the hard drive bay: "Look, most likely anyone who wanted to play the few hard drive enabled games already has a fat PS2 because they're hardcore fans"

Re:Cost/Benefit

[RoFLKOPTr]

Bam, I've got web,

Using a version of Internet Explorer that is how old, and knows how little about modern web technologies?

email,

And how many features does your Outlook have? I know you can't use webmail because you're using a version of IE that can't do shit.

games up to things like Q3 and derivatives (assuming proper video card,)

The capabilities of Quake 3 are nowhere near those of modern games.

can do video

Ah, but can you do 1080p video?

and hell I can run fruity Loops and cool Edit pro at the same time so I can compose and master musical scores.

I'll give you that one.

Fuck, I only need maybe 2K of RAM to have an operating calculator, and with a calculator alone of today's power I could design a fucking nuke, which they did back then on a machine bigger than any house you've ever been in that used vacuum tubes and required two air conditioners for every ten linear feet of computer.

Calculators do simple math. I bet your calculator can't brute force an MD5 hash at 600 million attempts per second.

You're probably too young to know this but the very same shit you're doing today was done many years ago on less capable hardware with good programmers sitting in the chair. Most programmers today ARE NOT WORTH SHIT AND THAT IS WHY 256MB OF RAM IS NOT ENOUGH.

The very same shit in a much more simple incarnation.. Sorry old man, but computers from 10 years ago just aren't capable of things that today's computers are.

Re:Cost/Benefit

[Khyber]

"Using a version of Internet Explorer that is how old, and knows how little about modern web technologies?"

Actually I'd just use an older version of firefox with a few plugins. Oldversion.com - because newer isn't ALWAYS better.

"And how many features does your Outlook have? I know you can't use webmail because you're using a version of IE that can't do shit."

Gmail has a regular HTML display option for email - try again.

"The capabilities of Quake 3 are nowhere near those of modern games."

The Q3 engine is open-sourced and has been extensively and heavily modified. The engine itself is more efficient and actually handles more detail. In fact, iD software is the premier engine developer, and the Q3 engine is so customizable that with just some tweaking you can get much better looking graphics. Actually, the engine is so efficient that extremely high polygon count models would still render pretty easily even on older Geforce 6 hardware.

"Ah, but can you do 1080p video?"

Software 1080p only requires a 2GHz P4 and 256MB of RAM (That's my old system spec from early 2000, was watching 1080p fansubs) Get a video card that handles it natively on the board and you can get away with only a 1GHz processor.

"Calculators do simple math. I bet your calculator can't brute force an MD5 hash at 600 million attempts per second."

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=767419 - who needs speed? It can be done, it will be done. yea it'll take years on the TI-83's 8MHz cpu but it could still get it done.

"Sorry old man, but computers from 10 years ago just aren't capable of things that today's computers are."

Only games. Everything else can and has been done on older computers, pretty well might I add, maybe not REALTIME but it still gets done. All those super-awesome CGI scenes you saw in movies back in the late 90s? Yea, quite a few of those were done on machines that don't break the 300MHz barrier, and were lucky to even have 256MB of RAM in both video and system memory combined. Music tracks? Yep, been done a loooong time on old computers. 3D modeling/CAD? Yup, been done and is still done on old computers (go take a tour of the Carvin guitar factory, they're still using machines from the early 80's running some variant of UNIX.) Text processing? Been doing that since before the days of monochrome screens. Spreadsheets, graphs, plotting? Yep, those too.

Sorry, but computers even back then were capable of doing pretty much anything you wanted with them. Whether or not you got results back in realtime is an entirely different matter.

Also saddened by the fact that ...

[neonprimetime]

... PS3 Slim won't run PS2 discs

Re:Also saddened by the fact that ...

[hattig]

Yeah, well that wasn't a capability of many big PS3s either, the 40GB in Europe never had that capability. Sad, yes, but once the PS3 game library was big enough an understandable cost optimisation.

Maybe Sony will one day sort out its PS2 software emulation (not the half and half that they had in 2nd generation PS3s in some markets) so that we can load our existing games (although I suspect they would rather we rebought them in the PS Store).

Re:Also saddened by the fact that ...

[93 Escort Wagon]

... PS3 Slim won't run PS2 discs

I think this is a more practical thing to be concerned about, at least for some of us. I thought about buying a PS3, even though it's unlikely I'd buy many games at first, because looking forward it seemed to make sense. But heck, my daughter still plays a number of PS2 games on a regular basis - so nope, we're not getting a PS3 for a while.

I don't understand why console makers can't grasp that we don't want to keep connecting more and more devices concurrently to our televisions, or having said devices taking up more and more room under/around them...

They're Too Big to Write Off Entirely

[eldavojohn]

... it has removed the final reason for the open source world to care about Sony.

I thought ImageWorks (of Sony Pictures) had recently opensourced OSL, Scala Migrations, Field3D, PyString and Maya Reticle or at least made them community endeavors. I can't seem to find the source code for browsing on OSL and some of the other projects are pretty tiny but if that's true it's a good sign on ImageWorks' part.

I'm certain they by and large use GPL LGPL in their products like their TVs and SOE using PostgreSQL over Oracle.

Writing off the PS3? Probably. They probably realized Linux support buys them little over the Wii and XBox360 despite what I and everyone else thinks. But the rest of Sony might have hope.

Re:They're Too Big to Write Off Entirely

[tepples]

They probably realized Linux support buys them little over the Wii and XBox360 despite what I and everyone else thinks.

Xbox 360 has Creators Club and Xbox Live Indie Games, a business model that Apple copied for the iPhone SDK and App Store. What does Sony have to match it?

Re:They're Too Big to Write Off Entirely

[hansamurai]

Creator's Club is simply nothing like the OtherOS support Sony had. One is for developing XNA framework games and selling them on Xbox Live, the other is for turning your PS3 into a slightly gimped Linux box (gimped as in no direct access to GPU). They're targeted at completely different people and don't even serve remotely the same purpose.

Stupid Article.

[Reason58]

I'm in the "open source world".

Should I stop caring about Burger King because I can't run Linux on a Whopper?

Re:Stupid Article.

[Astroturtle]

YES, DAMN IT. YES!

Re:Stupid Article.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure that a WOPR would run Linux just fine!

Re:Stupid Article.

[Monkeedude1212]

... Are you saying you got a Whopper to run Linux before?

Link me to sauce.

I mean source.

Re:Stupid Article.

[jpmorgan]

Should I stop caring about Burger King because I can't run Linux on a Whopper?

Of course you can't. That's what NetBSD is for!

duh

[Sir_Sri]

The problem is that PS3's are cheaper sources of Cell processors than anything IBM is selling. If you want to set up (at a university say) a research cluster of 4 or 8 Cell based computers for astrophysics, datamining, or the like, it was cheaper to buy PS3's than even consider the IBM bought Cell based servers. But then you weren't buying games, and Sony wasn't getting financial credit for subsidizing academic research (if they donated the equipment it would be a tax write off likely but if you buy it they get nothing, and since they're selling at a loss they only want you to buy if you'll buy games too).

Also, as amusingly geeky as this was, how many of their gaming customers actually bothered? This was never an actual selling feature of the system, they were trying to circumvent EU import tariffs on game consoles that aren't on computers. The EU didn't buy it with the PS2, I doubt they bought it with the PS3.

I call BS

[overlordofmu]

I love my PS3.

I love Linux.

Sony is the only console maker that DID support Linux.

They dropped the support because it was an rarely utilized feature and it was cheaper not to support it on the new model.

I run Linux on all my PCs (2 laptops and 4 desktops) but never installed it on my PS3 (despite having partitioned my upgraded hard drive with room for it). I never felt the need to do so. I run a media server on two of the Linux boxes and I don't need the PS3 to be a 7th general purpose computer when that is not it's intended function as one and not designed for that purpose.

This fanboy of Linux (and fanboy of Sony as well) doesn't care about the dropped support. I thank Sony for all the support up to this point and wish this platform continued success.

Moody

[whisper_jeff]

After reading that summary and the completely transparent hatred for Sony in it I and forced to say that, yes, Glyn is Moody. ;)

It didn't bring people to the platform

[mo]

I used to work for Sony developing PS2 games. The number of people I met that cut their teeth writing code on the linux kit before getting into the business was exactly 0. I might have been the only person I knew who even had a modchipped PS2, everybody else just didn't care since they had the PS2Tool on their desk to do development. Sony is probably discontinuing offering Linux because it didn't spark the development push that they had hoped for. Still, I would think this would limit the number of supercomputer clusters that use PS3's. You'd think the marketing benefits of being a platform in the top 100 supercomputers would be valuable, but perhaps Sony is still willing to work with academic institutions to make this possible still.

Re:It didn't bring people to the platform

[masmullin]

It didn't spark the development push because Sony crippled the ability for Linux to use all of the hardware.

If they wanted to spark development, they should have let the OtherOS have free reign.

Re:They crippled it

[CannonballHead]

You mean, make it into a normal computer? ;)

Do we really need the commentary?

[brkello]

Just summarize the article, don't whine to me about how you don't like Sony. I am able to evaluate actions they take individually. Rootkit = bad. PS3 not supporting linux = good business decision. They are in no way related to each other since this isn't replacing Linux on the PS3 with a rootkit.

And seriously wake up. If you get pissed at Sony for the dumb things they do, then you probably wouldn't buy a product from anyone if you actually paid attention to all the crap that has gone on in each company's history.

I'm with you on this one.

[Malkin]

I agree. This quote really made me giggle:

But by omitting the option to install GNU/Linux on its new PS3, it has removed the final reason for the open source world to care about Sony.

Unless they -- I don't know -- like playing console games, like the vast majority of people who buy game consoles. My microwave oven doesn't run Linux, either, but it somehow manages to still be useful to me.

Honestly, I think out-of-touch rants like this only serve to further reinforce the "Linux zealot" stereotype, and drive the mainstream away from Linux.

Re:I'm with you on this one.

[Dragoness Eclectic]

My microwave oven doesn't run Linux, either, but it somehow manages to still be useful to me.

*whistles innocently*

Don't be too sure about that. I've worked on embedded systems on consumer devices, and you'd be amazed at what runs Linux these days. Hardware manufacturers really like NOT paying license fees & royalties for their embedded firmware.

Even then it was limited

[planetoid]

Didn't Yellow Dog Linux and its utilities limit the hardware the user could and couldn't access if he wanted to develop? I think that said something about Sony's commitment to basic user freedoms long before this happened.

Be fair, now.

[Toonol]

All Sony has done is reverted to the status quo for game consoles. The Wii and 360 don't allow Linux to be run. While Sony should be praised for including a (mostly gimped) linux option with the PS3, they shouldn't be condemned any more than Nintendo or Microsoft for not including it. I'm not a Sony fan at all.

There's FAR better things to criticize Sony about.

Re:Actually not much of an option

[Bluesman]

I think you might be misinformed. I installed 3.0 yesterday, and the option is still there.

It fights piracy

[Late Adopter]

The hypervisor gave homebrew developers a way to make apps without enabling warez. But now the homebrew community and the warez community are brought back together by the need to find a hack to access the console resources. And once one finds a way in, the other gets it for free, no stopping them.

Linux support seemed like an intelligent way to take a stab at piracy on the cheap, while paying lip-service to Open Source, etc, and getting a tiny amount of street-cred for it. It may be that's not worth the cost to them anymore... we'll see if that turns out to be a mistake or not.

So why CENSORSHIP?

[faragon]

The censored message (noticed by pjmlp) was a reply from Sarah to a question I made (Why no Linux in PS3 Slim?). The answer -verbatim- it was recovered because of mail lists and by backups: at Slashdot (1), and also in a "repost" in the same PS2-Linux Sony's forum (2, 3).

Censored thread, recovered from mail list backup:

http://playstation2-linux.com/forum/message.php?msg_id=51037

Message: 51037
BY: aragon
DATE: 2009-Aug-21 06:26
SUBJECT: Why no Linux in PS3 Slim?

Hello,

I've found very disgusting the fact of removing the Other OS option in the PS3 Slim model, and the worst: without explanation. In previous cuts, as it was with the PS2 compatibility it was explained that was in order to cut price, removing PS2 CPU chip first, and PS2 graphic and memory subsistem second, which I found acceptable as explanation.

Why? Is being used unencrypted RAM access or similar? Or is just a plain rip-off?

I know that there are many kind people at Sony Computer Entertainment, so please, if possible, give at least a short explanation of why it has been discontinued the Other OS option in the new PS3s.

Thank you in advance,

aragon

P.S. PS2 Linux user since 2002, and since 2007 for the PS3.
P.S.2. I still can not believe it, what a disgrace.

Removed answer and further replies:

Read and respond to this message at: http://playstation2-linux.com/forum/message.php?msg_id=51038
By: sarahe

Hi aragon,

I'm sorry that you are frustrated by the lack of comment specifically regarding the withdrawal of support for OtherOS on the new PS3 slim.

The reasons are simple: The PS3 Slim is a major cost reduction involving many changes to hardware components in the PS3 design. In order to offer the OtherOS install, SCE would need to continue to maintain the OtherOS hypervisor drivers for any significant hardware changes - this costs SCE. One of our key objectives with the new model is to pass on cost savings to the consumer with a lower retail price. Unfortunately in this case the cost of OtherOS install did not fit with the wider objective to offer a lower cost PS3.

We'll see if we can get the offical OtherOS page updated with something to this effect so that an official explanation is provided. Thank you for your comments.

Sarah.

- - - - - - - -

Read and respond to this message at: http://playstation2-linux.com/forum/message.php?msg_id=51039 By: aragon

Thank you very much for the answer, Sarah.

Anyway, if its just a software related point, I hope that it may be addressed in the future, if users request is enough important for making worth the driver update effort.

Best regards,

aragon

- - - - - - - -

Read and respond to this message at: http://playstation2-linux.com/forum/message.php?msg_id=51040
By: f5inet

Thanks for the extra-official explain, sarahe.

could will be possible for SCE to develop and sell a 'PS3-Slim OtherOS license'?. since there is a few wannabe/homebrew projects running in PS3 hardware (the cheapest IBM-cell developer machine), and these projects are dumped to dust with this major revision of PS3-architectur

Re:So why CENSORSHIP?

[faragon]

Dear fuckwad, please learn what censorship actually is and stop calling everything you don't like censorship in an attempt to gain notice, you are just lowering the value of the word and making it so more and more people don't give a fuck when you scream censorship.

Please also learn that it is completely acceptable to every normal person on the planet to censor certain things at certain times, regardless your inability to understand that, or the fact that the world doesn't revolve around you.

It may be "completely acceptable" for you.

Re:Actually not much of an option

[CronoCloud]

I have a CECHE01 PS3 with a Linux install on it, I updated to 3.00 without worrying about losing my ability to boot or install a newer Linux distro. The options are still there and they work, just like I still have the ability to virtual PS2 memory cards and play PS2 games even though PS3's newer than my model can't do that.

Re:What?

[Khyber]

Sony didn't make it a challenge. I thought that so at first, but guess what? It was the hypervisor restricting all the access. Hypervisor's gone, all that's left is to hack the firmware to allow installing another OS. If anything, Sony's likely made it easier to get Linux running.

Drupal

[michaelcole]

This headline is dramatic and uninformed. Linux isn't the only open source project out there.

Sony has made huge contributions to the Drupal CMS (Website Content Management System).

They have hired a full-time programmer who is 100% dedicated to open source (CCK/Views modules).
They have sponsored major improvements to Drupal - http://drupal.org/node/383954

Ease up on the rhetoric, before you sour other open-source projects.

Maybe you want to couple your perceived right to hack the PS3 with open source? That's dangerous. Make an open-sourced PS3 and no problem. Mike

Message Received By Sony... and everyone else

[SuperKendall]

In the future Sony will refrain from supporting Linux in anything initially, because they get more flack for not supporting it in all models than do other console makers for never having supported it to begin with.

It's this kind of mean-spirited crap that keeps Open Source as generally a second-class citizen on platforms.

31,933 PS3s are being used for sci computing

[hxnwix]

Nobody uses the PS3 for supercomputing these days. The ugly secret of the PS3 is that its 'extreme performance' was mostly marketing.

Folding@Home maintains a popular PS3 client that is currently used by 31,933 PS3s. The PS3s provide about 26% of the total x86 equivalent TFLOPS available to F@H, although PS3s represent just 9% of the total F@H CPU population.

Let me emphasize that: thirty one thousand, nine hundred thirty three PS3s actively contribute to Folding@Home. That's a long way from zero, my friend.

Open source isn't everything.

[Zeikcied]

First, to the story poster, the Sony that made the rootkit isn't the same Sony that makes the PS3. Sony Music made the rootkit, and Sony Computer Entertainment makes the PS3. Yes, same parent company, but two very different divisions. Also, SCE doesn't make Sony computers. Just because the name Sony is common doesn't mean it's the same division, or even the same company. Each division can have vastly different philosophies. So comparing SCE to Sony Music or Sony Computers (whatever the exact company names are) makes for a flawed argument.

Anyway, to me, this story and a number of replies to it smack of open source elitism. You know that's why Windows and Mac users don't much care for us Linux users, right? Open source isn't the be all end all solution to everything. Yeah, I use Kubuntu Linux (Jaunty, to be exact), and I have since December 2006. I'm quite happy with Linux. But I know that open source can't do every single thing perfectly. I use the closed source NVIDIA graphics driver, because the open source version isn't up to par. I use Adobe Flash Player, because Gnash can't hold a candle to the official product (not yet at least; I tried Gnash on Homestarrunner.com and Weebl's Stuff, and the video was much slower than the audio, causing a huge syncing issue). At one point I used the Adobe Acrobat Reader, because the KDE PDF viewers at the time couldn't support editing PDF forms and emailing the results (functionality of a more recent version of Acrobat).

Sony removing Linux support from the PS3 Slim isn't the end of the world. You can still install Linux on the pre-Slim units. My 60 Gig PS3 (now with a new 120 Gig HD) still has the Install Other OS option. I don't use it, because it would be redundant, seeing as how my computer and PS3 are in the same room. But I still have the option. It isn't like the feature is being removed from every PS3 in existence. Besides, I don't understand why someone needs Linux on their PS3 and their PC at the same time. Sure, I can understand the curiosity factor. But I don't see what other functionality you need that the PS3 doesn't have to begin with, or that you can't easily get on your PC.