Slashdot Mirror


T-Mobile Backs Off Plan To Charge $1.50 For Paper Bills

netbuzz writes "Following a torrent of customer complaints, bad publicity and the threat of a class-action lawsuit, T-Mobile has abandoned a plan announced this summer to charge any customer wanting a paper bill $1.50 per month. While the news is being cheered by many T-Mobile customers, it's not going to be as popular with others who praised the extra fee as an environmentally sound inducement to reduce paper use."

43 of 285 comments (clear)

  1. Just reduce the bill by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They could do just the opposite and give people a $1.50 reduction in their bill if they opt-in to a paperless billing system.

    1. Re:Just reduce the bill by mrdoogee · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I came here to say this. Why not encourage environmentally friendly behavior, instead of punishing for adhering to the status quo.

    2. Re:Just reduce the bill by sakdoctor · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And they could claw back the lost revenue by adding $1.50 onto everybody's bill!

    3. Re:Just reduce the bill by ironicsky · · Score: 4, Informative

      My bank does this. So does my cable company. $1.00 off if you don't get a bill.

      $0.54 cents a stamp
      +Paper
      +Envelop
      +Ink
      +Big massive industrial printer(I've seen the one the cable company uses, size of a pick up truck... The thing is brand spanking new out of the box)
      +People to refill the equipment and move the bills to the loading docks for Canada Post to come get it.

      All adds up quite quickly.

      I get the majority of my bills as PDF's now.

    4. Re:Just reduce the bill by theaveng · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I suggested a similar idea to a bunch of store-owners who were organizing to protest high credit card fees. They said the fees kept skyrocketing, and that meant increased prices, which would hurt the customers. I said if they want to help customers, encourage the shoppers to stop using credit cards by offering a 5% discount for cash payment.

      The store-owners looked at me as if I was nuts. You see they expected credit card companies to reduce fees, but heaven forbid the store owners reduce *their* fees to the customer. That's sacrilegious. Same with T-Mobile - heaven forbid they offer a discount for using paper. They want to collect MORE money not less.

      Aside-

      Discover Card gave me 5 dollars to go paperless. Eventually I decided I didn't like it because I kept forgetting to pay my bill (which ended-up costing me more than 5 dollars in late fees). So I went back to paper. Discover Card balked but when I said, "Give me paper or lose my business," they decided to give me paper statements again.

      --
      FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
    5. Re:Just reduce the bill by Smitty825 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'd love to go to a paper-less billing system...except for one thing...

      Why can't the companies just email me a PDF of the bill I normally receive? It would contain the due-date of the bill and how much I owe. If I am splitting the bill with roommates, then it's easy to forward to each other. If I want to keep a record of what I've been charged for, then it's easy for me to store it, etc.

      Currently the way "paperless" billing works is that I receive an email from saying my bill is ready to be seen. I then have to go to their website, enter my username/password (because they've written some sort of Javascript to prevent the browser from remembering it for me), click 3 or 4 times to find my bill and then discover that all of the information is located on 3 or 4 different pages.

      To me, the hassle of receiving a paperless bill isn't worth it...

      --

      Doh!
    6. Re:Just reduce the bill by Atlantis-Rising · · Score: 2, Informative

      Most of those retailers probably don't want to get into spats with the credit card companies, which prohibit charging more for credit transactions than you do for regular transactions.

      They do permit a 'cash discount' price, and so in effect it's probably merely six of one and half a dozen of another, but their enforcement is spotty, which is just what you'd expect of such a program, so it may be more trouble than it's worth.

      --
      "It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
    7. Re:Just reduce the bill by spitzak · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Stores don't do that because it hurts impulse buying. If a customer goes in the store with $20 and a credit card, and sees something desirable for $100, but $95 with cash, they are likely to say "well I will come back when I have the cash" and then forget about the purchase entirely. But if there is no price penalty for the credit card then they will probably use the credit card right away.

    8. Re:Just reduce the bill by azadrozny · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think there is a difference between one login/interface to your bank to pay all your bills, and having to login to the websites of 10+ bill payers to collect all the information I need to pay them. Some of my bills are paid only once or twice per year. I would rather not have to remember all the different logons and passwords for every company who wants to send me an electronic bill.

    9. Re:Just reduce the bill by pla · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well what's the difference really? They could say that the bill is $50 and you have to pay an extra $1.50 for a paper bill, or they could say the bill is $51.50 and you get a $1.50 discount for not receiving paper bills. Same thing.

      Not the same thing at all.

      For one thing, most utilities have either fixed profit margins or fixed rate schedules. They can't just raise everyone's bill by $1.50 and "offer" to reduce it for playing ball. Whether or not they can charge more for the "value added" service of sending you a bill remains something of a grey area, however, at least until enough of them get spanked by their local PUC for trying crap like this.

      Second, many monthly services have various taxes associated with the underlying service itsef - So making me pay more for the service and taking it off after-the-fact means more taxes than paying less for the service with a "fee" for paper billing (this obviously wouldn't apply in the case of a straight bottom-line sales tax, but the sort of services this entire topic relates to generally don't pay taxes like that).

      Finally - We-the-customers need to take a stand about the nonstop attempts by every company with whom we (have no choice but to) do business, trying to nickel-and-dime us to death. I would love to see some sort of regulation like what New York has for retail, where the company must show the real, actual, final, all-expenses-included price. None of this "39.95 per month plus taxes and fees and random nondescript lineitems, +/- whatever-we-like based on the length of your contract and what model of hardware you either own or rented, adjusted for how many seconds you use it per day per arbitrarily sliding time-windows with different fee structures". Just tell us the goddamned cost up-front. If you can't (or won't) do that, GTFO and make room for someone who will. Not a difference so much as a "stop quibbling about the details and grow a pair" - Just Say No(tm) to one more itsy bitsy fee and tell them where to stick the paper bill they no longer need to send to you, as an ex-customer.

    10. Re:Just reduce the bill by Obfuscant · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Just set up autopay and you get both benefits.

      Yes, you get the benefit of not having a paper record of your bill to use for tax or other purposes, not having a reminder that a bill is due, having the vendor suck the money out of your account before you even know there is a problem with the last bill, and the fun of trying to get the money back when you prove they overcharged you for something.

      Like Comcast, which offered me a "delivered, no cost digital self-install kit" and then went ahead and charged me $10 for it anyway.

      Thanks, I think I'll keep the bill and pay after I see it is correct.

    11. Re:Just reduce the bill by CodeBuster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why can't the companies just email me a PDF of the bill I normally receive?

      If you had ever worked in web application development or computer security then you wouldn't be asking that question. Can you say phising? There are reasons why online banking and other financial institutions, for example, never use e-mail for account correspondence other than to inform you that your statement is ready for viewing without providing any links . The public Internet exists in a constant state of open warfare and any transaction involving money or billing is bound to be targeted by the bad guys. Could it be made secure? Possibly, but NOT in such a way that average users would (a) be able to set it up OR (b) be able to understand and use it properly.

    12. Re:Just reduce the bill by whoever57 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They could do just the opposite and give people a $1.50 reduction in their bill if they opt-in to a paperless billing system.

      For me, it's not worth $1.50 to have to deal with T-Mobile's website. It is the most appalling and annoying site that I have visited for quite a while. Features that used to be there no longer exist and, because of all the scripts and flash, it takes forever to navigate. I'm sure someone at T-Mobile likes the way it "looks", but it is the ultimate example of form before function.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    13. Re:Just reduce the bill by cayenne8 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      "Aren't you going to have to got to the website and enter your login information to pay the bill anyhow? "

      Not necessarily, many may just use their bank website to pay ALL their bills from....rather than log onto every different site out there to pay individual bills.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    14. Re:Just reduce the bill by jbigboote · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And you know what, if T-Mobile offered to email a PDF of my bill every month, that would have been acceptable, but they did not. You had to log in and pull up your billing records. And if you want a PDF, you have to crank your own out. I'd much rather have the officialness of an email from T-Mobile with a PDF they created of my bill, than a PDF I cranked out myself. If a dispute ever arose, I know the PDF I generated will have no weight.

    15. Re:Just reduce the bill by oakgrove · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'm not going to go into the security implications of it, but you could always use this to script the the website and bulldoze through all of the javascript, flash, etc. You can write a script that will take you all the way through logging in, clicking on the "pay my bill" button, fill in your credit card info, everything. Of course, you shouldn't do this.

      But you can.

      --
      The soylentnews experiment has been a dismal failure.
    16. Re:Just reduce the bill by bzipitidoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Going automatic is a scary proposition, fraught with traps. Some fraudulent charge could land on my credit card and be automatically paid before I learn of it. Getting the money back is only one problem. If the charge is big enough, it could overdraw the bank account, and wouldn't the bank love that? Have fun arguing with the bank over the many penalty fees they'll gleefully charge as check after check bounces. Of course, not going automatic means I'm constantly flirting with exorbitant late fees as they play their little games to try to manipulate me into missing the due date. A popular one is to make the monthly due date creep forward, bouncing around a bit to make it less obvious. Over a year, I've had the due date creep from the 15th to the 6th of the month. I dumped that credit card. There's doing without any credit card, but that too is awkward.

      Some problems I've had with going paperless is it breaks down, and they don't email an actual statement but instead a mere notification that a new statement is ready for viewing on their website. Lot of rigamarole logging into email, finding the email, then logging into the website and finding the statement. Then it breaks down as sooner or later, I get a notice by snail mail saying they were unable to deliver the latest notification by email and are permanently switching me back to paper. Gets real old setting up paperless again and again.

      --
      Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
  2. i like paper bills by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I personally like paper bills... It helps me keep track of when I've PAID those bills...

    1. Re:i like paper bills by azadrozny · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I use banking software, however I rely on those paper statements to tell me when exactly the bill is due, and how much. In the past I have opted into electronic statements, but there is no uniformity in how the statements are delivered. Sometimes I get a PDF emailed to me, but often just an email saying the bill is due, then I must login to find the date and amount. This is too inconsistent. I am waiting for the day when I can use my banking software to download a detailed statement from a single application, and then mark it for payment.

  3. discount by lapsed · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I doubt that they would have gotten the same reaction if they had offered a $1.50 discount to customers agreeing to receive electronic bills.

  4. So... by ground.zero.612 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    When I read things like this I often wonder if the people promoting these environmentally friendly business processes are actually not that environmentally friendly and instead simply motivated by greed. The problem I see is that average (you know, 100 IQ etc.) people are too stupid to realize the business hippy just wants more of their money, and have discovered that using politically correct buzzwords has a calming and mesmerizing effect on the cattle...

    --
    "Be prepared, son. That's my motto. Be prepared." --Joe Hallenbeck
  5. Paper bills = accountability by stillnotelf · · Score: 5, Insightful

    While I understand the environmental argument, paper bills make for accountability. With online-only billing, you have no way to resolve certain account disputes, because they hold all the data! I'm not putting on my tinfoil hat and saying they'll deliberately screw up the records and double bill you - but mistakes do happen. Having a paper trail is the best way to protect yourself from mistakes. Also, consider this: what happens to your account when you close it? How can you prove that you had the account once it's closed if it's online-only? With a paper trail, you can prove it! (This applies more to banks than cell phones...)

    1. Re:Paper bills = accountability by Sandbags · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree. For anything interest bearing, anytime I have a billing dispute, for purchase records, and more, I print most of my bills anyway. I keep all copies in file for 5-7 years after the account is closed. (only 3 years for my utilities regular bills).

      Many companies have tried to make me switch to electronic invoices. I only accept where they automatically send a complete invoice as a non-editable file that can be saved (and printed) seperate from e-mail (aka, not embeded HTML), i do not accept from companies that send me a "reminder" as I'll NEVER go there just to print the bill... and why should I at my time and my expense if I'm not getting discounted for the trouble?

      CUT DOWN THE TREES, they're a 100% renewable resource, reduce CO2, and I don't even want to HEAR about landfill space (we have a national shortage of landfills with a multi-hundred year waiting list, and could use as much trash as we can generate that's non-toxic...)

      --
      There is no contest in life for which the unprepared have the advantage.
    2. Re:Paper bills = accountability by Ossifer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Agreed, as someone that T-Mobile attempted to screw over, I was very glad to have my paper to be able to show them that they were wrong, $400 wrong... They canceled my account, immediately blocked online access to records, and proceeded to charge me an "early termination fee" of $400 (two lines). If I didn't have paper copies, I would have been out $400...

      Background: In switching to AT&T, I wanted the process to go smoothly and thus ported my numbers in advance (two weeks) of contract termination, fully intending to pay my normal monthly bill for the period including the two weeks. T-Mobile claimed that by porting my numbers, I had actively canceled my contract early, and claimed this was in the contract I could access online (despite knowing that they had blocked online access). So I pulled out my printed contract from nearly two years earlier, and asked them to cite chapter and verse to back up their claim. They obviously couldn't, it wasn't in there, nor would FCC rules allow it to be. So they backed down.

  6. Dear T-Mobile... by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Give a "$1.50 a month Discount" to all customers asking to not have a paper bill sent.

    This goes over very well if you give a discount instead of trying to boost your profit margin.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  7. Use less paper then by Neil+Watson · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If T-mobile bills are anything like the ones in my post they could reduce paper by condensing the bills to just one page and stop including fliers to sell me more products. I suspect however, that this was more about another adding another charge and not about actually saving money.

    There has been a law passed in my area that charges a few cents for plastic shopping bags. The assumption was that the charge would somehow go to bettering the environment. Instead it goes into the retailer's pocket. Revenue by legislation. Glad I use bins.

  8. Going paperless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    I tried to go paperless with T-Mobile a few months ago and they keep sending me paper bills any way. Is this just to get an extra $1.50 out of me every month? Oh, and if you go paperless you have to agree to have automatic debit from your checking account...make sure you read that part of the fine print.

    1. Re:Going paperless by mdm-adph · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, you don't. I have T-Mobile -- signed up for paperless billing, but no where was I required to sign up for any sort of automatic debit. They don't even have a card number on file for me.

      --
      It is by my will alone my thoughts acquire motion; it is by the juice of the coffee bean that the thoughts acquire speed
  9. torrent by Haxzaw · · Score: 4, Funny

    "Following a torrent of customer complaints" Is that torrent available on the Pirate Bay? I have been unable to find it anywhere.

  10. Paper, Accountability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Worse than that--instead of issuing signed PDFS, they'd probably do the same thing most online companies do, and either:

        1) have some god awful non-platform agnostic flash application. I'm sorry--if it's for billing purposes, you need to support *MY* computer. I don't accept the notion of any software requirement to get my trash picked up, or pay for the phone bill on my plain old only does phone calls and SMS cellphone.

        2) Use unsigned HTML--in which case I'll print it out anyway, as it's my understanding I need papercopies to comply with tax law. Thanks environmentalists--you've just made me use my own printer, with toner that's probably a worse impact on the environment than whatever they use at their billing facility. But that's okay... because...

    most people won't even understand what it would mean to digitally sign a statement (so nobody implements it)... therefore stops me from hitting "view source"--changing my displayed bill from $125 to $25, saving the html, hitting print, and cutting them a check for $25?

    Next week when they complain, I underpaid--I send them a copy of my perfectly legitimate bill for $25, and tell them that *they* have a computer error. Since I'm the only one with a paper trail, it's pretty much their error by definition. Every one of their backups says $125? Okay--but I'm still the only person with a legitimate paper trail...

    Sorry--paper is out there for a reason.

    1. Re:Paper, Accountability by Alphanos · · Score: 2, Funny

      ... therefore [sic] stops me from hitting "view source"--changing my displayed bill from $125 to $25, saving the html, hitting print, and cutting them a check for $25?

      Next week when they complain, I underpaid--I send them a copy of my perfectly legitimate bill for $25, and tell them that *they* have a computer error. Since I'm the only one with a paper trail, it's pretty much their error by definition. Every one of their backups says $125? Okay--but I'm still the only person with a legitimate paper trail...

      Sorry--paper is out there for a reason.

      Tip: To make sense out of the above comment, simply print it. Once printed on paper it's automatically true! Paper's pretty magical that way.

      --
      Alphanos
  11. I hate the lies by Lord+Byron+II · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Companies always pass it off as being "green", but that's not the real reason. T-mobile stores are still overly-lit, selling merchandise that's over-packaged, and handing out paper fliers.

    The truth is that its expensive to print bills. And I don't blame them for wanting to get rid of them, but if you're going to save money, then pass a little of it on to me.

    My bank just paid me $5 to go to e-bills and for me, that was enough.

    Carrot vs. Stick

  12. can I charge them 1.50$ ? by goombah99 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If they want me to pay electronically, can I charge them 1.50 for the added risk of electronic commerce? It's one thing to put your check routing number in a paper envelope and sent it by US mail. it's a whole nother level of trust to send it over the internet and rely on their databases to be properly secured. Look at all the whole sale breeches.

    Speaking as a victim of identity theft, Personally, my own weighing of the risks is that I wont do electronic commerce other than insured visa cards until the laws are changed to make it their responsibility if they lose my bank account information. When that happens my expectation will be that they will pay the proper attention to security and it will be safer than mailing checks.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    1. Re:can I charge them 1.50$ ? by Glendale2x · · Score: 2, Informative

      Your paper check most likely ends up in their ACH database by virtue of it being processed electronically anyway.

      --
      this is my sig
  13. A paper bill is a legal document. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 5, Interesting

    A paper bill is a legal document. An online bill carries no legal power whatsoever, leaving the account holder with no rights other than what the company wants the account holder to have.

    1. Re:A paper bill is a legal document. by KharmaWidow · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The exact reason I get paper bills. I deduct for home business, I need records. Plus, when you go paperless you have to go to their site and manually download the bill. It would be a different story if they emailed a secure PDF to you.

    2. Re:A paper bill is a legal document. by CajunArson · · Score: 4, Informative

      A paper bill is a legal document. An online bill carries no legal power whatsoever

      Wrong. The rest of your post falls into irrelevance.

      For those of you who have never taken a Contract Law class, throw out the notion that documents have to be stamped and signed with fancy fonts on
      just the right kind of paper to be valid for normal business, that went out of style in the 19th century. Note that some other transactions that are not private contracts may still require notarization and other enhanced forms of evidence like a recording of title, but we are talking about online bills for normal services not transferring title to your house. The online record of your bill has exactly the same legal power as if the record were printed out onto a sheet of paper... in fact if there ever was a legal challenge over the accuracy of the bill, that is exactly what would happen, it would be printed out and submitted as evidence. The form of storage for the information contained in the bill has zero relevance to the legal rights and responsibilities of the parties. For those of you who've heard about the Statute of Frauds, any digital record held by your cable/cell/whatever provider is a "writing" just as if it was hand carved into a block of Italian marble.

      --
      AntiFA: An abbreviation for Anti First Amendment.
  14. Signed PDF? by ubergeek65536 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why not allow customers to download or get emailed a digitally signed pdf copy of the statement or bill.

  15. If they could just get it right... by onceuponatime · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I hate that. But only because they get it wrong. O2 do that with the iphone accounts and you cannot get them to change it. I used my iphone for business and have to save the bills so I left them. I wouldn't have a problem if they simply gave you the option to receive the bills as pdf's via email, so the amount of work I have to save them is to just push a button. That would then be preferable to paper bills, however, forcing you to login and navigate their website and download them and if you forget one month do more work is just too much trouble to stay with the provider, so I left them for a provider which did provide paper bills.

    Why can't they just get it right? It's not rocket science.

  16. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  17. Yes, particularly with T-Mobile, who lie by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Exactly.

    I'm going to be leaving T-Mobile UK shortly, because they overcharged me for several months having screwed up a transfer to a new package, and then had the audacity to accuse me of lying because I didn't notice the small amount in question immediately. (There is now way that any reasonable person with my usage history would have asked for the combination of facilities they claim I did: it was basically the new package plus part of my old package providing essentially the same service that they hadn't cancelled properly.)

    In this case, it's not really worth chasing them for the small amount of money concerned, I'll just take satisfaction in voting with my wallet. However, having the itemised, printed bills from them would certainly have been useful had it been worth going to court over.

    Also, it's interesting that they told me a few years back that they wanted to stop sending me itemised bills, immediately after I'd caught them overcharging me using the itemisation just the previous month. They do charge for itemisation, which I rather resent, since they demonstrably aren't trustworthy to charge me a varying sum of money each month without explaining where it comes from.

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  18. We're not talking about the rights of the company. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We're not talking about the rights of the company. We are talking about the rights of the account holder.

    If you don't have a paper bill, it may be in some cases difficult to assert any rights you have concerning mistakes in the bill.

  19. Re:In practice, there are problems. by SeximusMaximus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Are you really denying that people are not able to submit their electronic bills as evidence in cases. You are sorely mistaken is your are claiming that. Electronic records are just as, if not more, vital than purely paper records. E-discovery laws have been added to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, I have shown you the sections of the FRE - but perhaps you would feel better if we all argued in incorrect 'truisms'.