T-Mobile Backs Off Plan To Charge $1.50 For Paper Bills

netbuzz writes "Following a torrent of customer complaints, bad publicity and the threat of a class-action lawsuit, T-Mobile has abandoned a plan announced this summer to charge any customer wanting a paper bill $1.50 per month. While the news is being cheered by many T-Mobile customers, it's not going to be as popular with others who praised the extra fee as an environmentally sound inducement to reduce paper use."

Comments

Just reduce the bill

[Anonymous Coward]

They could do just the opposite and give people a $1.50 reduction in their bill if they opt-in to a paperless billing system.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[mrdoogee]

I came here to say this. Why not encourage environmentally friendly behavior, instead of punishing for adhering to the status quo.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[sakdoctor]

And they could claw back the lost revenue by adding $1.50 onto everybody's bill!

Re:Just reduce the bill

[brkello]

Same thing that I thought. People hate paying more but love a discount. Just market it as paying less if you opt out of paper delivery. I'm kind of surprised they weren't smart enough to do this in the first place.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[ironicsky]

My bank does this. So does my cable company. $1.00 off if you don't get a bill.

$0.54 cents a stamp
+Paper
+Envelop
+Ink
+Big massive industrial printer(I've seen the one the cable company uses, size of a pick up truck... The thing is brand spanking new out of the box)
+People to refill the equipment and move the bills to the loading docks for Canada Post to come get it.

All adds up quite quickly.

I get the majority of my bills as PDF's now.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[Animaether]

as with the countless other companies that introduced digital/internet-enabled services to cut their own costs and don't pass that on to their customers but instead bill the customers who don't switch... ...they'll just have some accountant-ish spokesguy come out in an obscure interview (if even interviewed about it) in some trade magazine (that the popular media then get to cite; though no mere mortal could run into a supermarket and pick the magazine up to read the whole story, lol) that costs of doing business are rising, especially in these troubled times, so instead of charging everybody $1.50 extra and those who want paper bills $3.00 extra, they're already passing on their cost savings by only changing the pricing by $0.00 and +$1.50 respectively.

Good luck wading through their financial records to prove that they're lying through their grinning teeth.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[Reece400]

Agreed, Primus gives me 10 cents a month for using ebilling. Some other companies will just give you a flat $5 credit when you sign up the first time, but this doesn't really encourage long term usage..

Re:Just reduce the bill

[mftb]

Then don't "purchase" the bill. This is exactly what such a programme would be encouraging.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[theaveng]

I suggested a similar idea to a bunch of store-owners who were organizing to protest high credit card fees. They said the fees kept skyrocketing, and that meant increased prices, which would hurt the customers. I said if they want to help customers, encourage the shoppers to stop using credit cards by offering a 5% discount for cash payment.

The store-owners looked at me as if I was nuts. You see they expected credit card companies to reduce fees, but heaven forbid the store owners reduce *their* fees to the customer. That's sacrilegious. Same with T-Mobile - heaven forbid they offer a discount for using paper. They want to collect MORE money not less.

Aside-

Discover Card gave me 5 dollars to go paperless. Eventually I decided I didn't like it because I kept forgetting to pay my bill (which ended-up costing me more than 5 dollars in late fees). So I went back to paper. Discover Card balked but when I said, "Give me paper or lose my business," they decided to give me paper statements again.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[Achromatic1978]

My bank does this, too, in reverse!

If I give them a check via the telephone, as opposed to sending it in, they charge me a $15 fee!

Re:Just reduce the bill

[Smitty825]

I'd love to go to a paper-less billing system...except for one thing...

Why can't the companies just email me a PDF of the bill I normally receive? It would contain the due-date of the bill and how much I owe. If I am splitting the bill with roommates, then it's easy to forward to each other. If I want to keep a record of what I've been charged for, then it's easy for me to store it, etc.

Currently the way "paperless" billing works is that I receive an email from saying my bill is ready to be seen. I then have to go to their website, enter my username/password (because they've written some sort of Javascript to prevent the browser from remembering it for me), click 3 or 4 times to find my bill and then discover that all of the information is located on 3 or 4 different pages.

To me, the hassle of receiving a paperless bill isn't worth it...

Re:Just reduce the bill

[Sandbags]

Exactly. I'm under a 2 year contract, and have agreed to pay for the service, which INCLUDES a paper bill. If they're taking it away, not just for environmental reasons, but primarily to save the printing and stamp costs (about $0.56 for a typical mailer if their bill costs as much as our company to mail - we send about 5 billion health statements out anually...) that I expect at the least they'll cut my service costs by an amount appropriate vs their profit margin (if they're clearing 10%, I'd expect not a $0.56 reduction, but more like $0.50).

Charging me more to get a bill? not on your life.

Even for the companies for which I do NOT have a contract, like credit cards, utility bills, etc, my current billed rate included a hard copy. Take that away, and i want a discount. You're saving, I get nothing, does not compute, especially for inductires that have to get my written permission (credit companies), or that of a geverning body (utilities) to change my rates, annual fees, charges, etc.

I'm all for reduction of environmental waste, but trees are 100% renewable, and clean CO2 out of the air. I'm for cutting down MORE of them, not less (provide we replant, which actually, we do.)

Re:Just reduce the bill

[Atlantis-Rising]

Most of those retailers probably don't want to get into spats with the credit card companies, which prohibit charging more for credit transactions than you do for regular transactions.

They do permit a 'cash discount' price, and so in effect it's probably merely six of one and half a dozen of another, but their enforcement is spotty, which is just what you'd expect of such a program, so it may be more trouble than it's worth.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[LordAndrewSama]

If they were interested in being environmentally friendly, yes.

since they're interested in using the environmentally friendly feelings of their customers for extra profit, no.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[nine-times]

Well what's the difference really? They could say that the bill is $50 and you have to pay an extra $1.50 for a paper bill, or they could say the bill is $51.50 and you get a $1.50 discount for not receiving paper bills. Same thing.

But you're right in that it's smarter marketing to frame is as a discount rather than an additional charge.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[onceuponatime]

You echo my sentiments exactly, as I said above. You'd think they would put a little effort into thinking about just how this will work in practise. Imagine you have

- telephone null
- water bill
- electricity bill
- council tax bill
- bank statements

and so and and so one and each of them want you to login, navigate around, be entertained by them over and over each month. What a nightmare! It's enough hassle dealing with spam, this is like the new spam.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[TomTraynor]

It may be arbitrary, but, there are a lot of things they figured into this.

1. Profit, they figured it was a quick way to goose the revenue if no one complained.
2. The printers are fairly expensive to maintain. Even if they lease them they have to pay a fixed cost per page and probably a surcharge for printing beyond a set limit.
3. They figure out the cost of overhead (rent, taxes, utilities and staff) and figure out how many pages they print per year and then calculate the per-page cost and then tack on a profit margin.
4. Did I mention they probably wanted to make a quick profit from this?
5. Greenwashing. They can then trumpet the fact that they are being more 'green' and allowing their customers to go 'green' too. Cynical me interprets 'green' as make more money at the cost of the customer, did I mention profit earlier?

Re:Just reduce the bill

[spitzak]

Stores don't do that because it hurts impulse buying. If a customer goes in the store with $20 and a credit card, and sees something desirable for $100, but $95 with cash, they are likely to say "well I will come back when I have the cash" and then forget about the purchase entirely. But if there is no price penalty for the credit card then they will probably use the credit card right away.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[bilbravo]

Aren't you going to have to got to the website and enter your login information to pay the bill anyhow?

(I am assuming that anyone who wants paperless billing is also going to pay bills paperlessly--that is to say, online)

Re:Just reduce the bill

[xaxa]

I got PDF bills from one company (Virgin Mobile UK). They didn't email it -- email isn't secure -- but I could download them from the website.

What would be really nice is if they'd email me a PDF of the bill, and use my GPG public key to encrypt it. Then I wouldn't need to bother logging in to their system.

Multiple companies in the UK, especially phone, mobile phone and broadband ones, charge extra (or reduce their fees) if you take paperless billing. Both my banks offer it without an incentive. The gas and electricity companies send bills every so often, but I think I can see more detail online.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[dhaines]

They could do just the opposite and give people a $1.50 reduction in their bill if they opt-in to a paperless billing system.

They'll roll this out in a couple months after the hubbub dies down. Except the discount will, tellingly, be $0.50.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[FooAtWFU]

It also contributes to the perception of "we are not nickel-and-diming you to death."

Re:Just reduce the bill

[mattack2]

Just set up autopay and you get both benefits.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[xaxa]

I'm all for reduction of environmental waste, but trees are 100% renewable, and clean CO2 out of the air. I'm for cutting down MORE of them, not less (provide we replant, which actually, we do.)

But your bill isn't printed on wood, it's printed on paper. That requires lots of processing, including pulping the wood, bleaching it (unless it's natural-colour paper) and drying.
Then there's the printing costs, the printers aren't free to run, and there's pretty nasty chemicals in the ink (unless stated otherwise).
Moving the mail around is also expensive: trucks/trains full of letters (or even planes?, I don't know how non-urgent mail is sent round the USA).

Re:Just reduce the bill

[azadrozny]

I think there is a difference between one login/interface to your bank to pay all your bills, and having to login to the websites of 10+ bill payers to collect all the information I need to pay them. Some of my bills are paid only once or twice per year. I would rather not have to remember all the different logons and passwords for every company who wants to send me an electronic bill.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[jc42]

Actually, the main reason that few stores give a discount for using cash is that their contracts with the credit-card companies explicitly forbids it. There are a few US states (and a few other countries) that have outlawed such contract terms. But in most places, it's legal, and so stores have a choice of giving every customer the same price or not be allowed to accept credit cards.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[pla]

Well what's the difference really? They could say that the bill is $50 and you have to pay an extra $1.50 for a paper bill, or they could say the bill is $51.50 and you get a $1.50 discount for not receiving paper bills. Same thing.

Not the same thing at all.

For one thing, most utilities have either fixed profit margins or fixed rate schedules. They can't just raise everyone's bill by $1.50 and "offer" to reduce it for playing ball. Whether or not they can charge more for the "value added" service of sending you a bill remains something of a grey area, however, at least until enough of them get spanked by their local PUC for trying crap like this.

Second, many monthly services have various taxes associated with the underlying service itsef - So making me pay more for the service and taking it off after-the-fact means more taxes than paying less for the service with a "fee" for paper billing (this obviously wouldn't apply in the case of a straight bottom-line sales tax, but the sort of services this entire topic relates to generally don't pay taxes like that).

Finally - We-the-customers need to take a stand about the nonstop attempts by every company with whom we (have no choice but to) do business, trying to nickel-and-dime us to death. I would love to see some sort of regulation like what New York has for retail, where the company must show the real, actual, final, all-expenses-included price. None of this "39.95 per month plus taxes and fees and random nondescript lineitems, +/- whatever-we-like based on the length of your contract and what model of hardware you either own or rented, adjusted for how many seconds you use it per day per arbitrarily sliding time-windows with different fee structures". Just tell us the goddamned cost up-front. If you can't (or won't) do that, GTFO and make room for someone who will. Not a difference so much as a "stop quibbling about the details and grow a pair" - Just Say No(tm) to one more itsy bitsy fee and tell them where to stick the paper bill they no longer need to send to you, as an ex-customer.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[Obfuscant]

Just set up autopay and you get both benefits.

Yes, you get the benefit of not having a paper record of your bill to use for tax or other purposes, not having a reminder that a bill is due, having the vendor suck the money out of your account before you even know there is a problem with the last bill, and the fun of trying to get the money back when you prove they overcharged you for something.

Like Comcast, which offered me a "delivered, no cost digital self-install kit" and then went ahead and charged me $10 for it anyway.

Thanks, I think I'll keep the bill and pay after I see it is correct.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[amoeba1911]

I came here to say this. Why not encourage environmentally friendly behavior, instead of punishing for adhering to the status quo.

Because it doesn't have anything at all to do with being environmentally friendly. It's just a way of sucking more money, they know certain percentage will not switch to paperless, so there's a nice source of extra income. I highly doubt the paper bill costs them $1.50 to send, I'm sure it's more like 50 cents including postage. They have 33 million subscribers, if 10% forget to sign up for paperless, that's 3.3 million bucks they're getting every month, 30 million annually, that's enough to buy a very big luxury yacht every year, that's the bottom line.
If they reduced your bill instead of increasing it, they would have absolutely nothing to gain from it, instead it would cost them. Fuck the environment, it's the $ in their pocket they care about.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[Ollabelle]

That's usually because that "service" is farmed out - you're paying the third party's fee.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[CodeBuster]

Why can't the companies just email me a PDF of the bill I normally receive?

If you had ever worked in web application development or computer security then you wouldn't be asking that question. Can you say phising? There are reasons why online banking and other financial institutions, for example, never use e-mail for account correspondence other than to inform you that your statement is ready for viewing without providing any links . The public Internet exists in a constant state of open warfare and any transaction involving money or billing is bound to be targeted by the bad guys. Could it be made secure? Possibly, but NOT in such a way that average users would (a) be able to set it up OR (b) be able to understand and use it properly.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[theaveng]

Huh?

The point was that if credit cards were raping my store's profits, I would ask customers to pay with cash instead, and then pass those savings to the customer with 5% discounts.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[ElSupreme]

Yeah cell phones arn't utilities. They reap (or rape) absurdly high profit margins from us in the US.

I wish they were, along with internet conncetions, but alas they are not.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[theaveng]

>>>their contracts with the credit-card companies explicitly forbids it.

False. The contracts (and most state laws) forbid adding a surcharge for credit card purchases, but you are free to provide a discount for cash purchases. That's why virtually every truck stop in this country offers separate Credit and Cash billing for fuel.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[whoever57]

They could do just the opposite and give people a $1.50 reduction in their bill if they opt-in to a paperless billing system.

For me, it's not worth $1.50 to have to deal with T-Mobile's website. It is the most appalling and annoying site that I have visited for quite a while. Features that used to be there no longer exist and, because of all the scripts and flash, it takes forever to navigate. I'm sure someone at T-Mobile likes the way it "looks", but it is the ultimate example of form before function.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[QuoteMstr]

Send me a GPG-encrypted bill.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[cayenne8]

"Aren't you going to have to got to the website and enter your login information to pay the bill anyhow? "

Not necessarily, many may just use their bank website to pay ALL their bills from....rather than log onto every different site out there to pay individual bills.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[CodeBuster]

Send me a GPG-encrypted bill.

They aren't going to spend time implementing and supporting a feature that you and 0.1% of their other customers will use; hence the last part of my previous statement concerning what is or should be offered to the "average" user. Google spends time and resources implementing esoteric features that few people actually use, but they also have a nearly unlimited budget; most regular IT departments don't enjoy that luxury.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[jbigboote]

And you know what, if T-Mobile offered to email a PDF of my bill every month, that would have been acceptable, but they did not. You had to log in and pull up your billing records. And if you want a PDF, you have to crank your own out. I'd much rather have the officialness of an email from T-Mobile with a PDF they created of my bill, than a PDF I cranked out myself. If a dispute ever arose, I know the PDF I generated will have no weight.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[plague3106]

That's false. The VISA merchant agreement (which can be downloaded by anyone on their website) explicitlly ALLOWS cash discounts.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[mattack2]

I still get various reminders even with autopay (e.g. Comcast bills). I can get online versions of the bills/statements if necessary.

If you autopay with credit card (except for the credit card payment itself, of course), you would have that venue for any complaints if necessary.

For me, I don't want to have to pay bills manually. I like autopay.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[jspiro]

I came here to say this. Why not encourage environmentally friendly behavior, instead of punishing for adhering to the status quo.

No no no -- it's all about perception. There are environmental *costs* that people need to understand and pay for in a literal sense. The status quo needs to change -- that is the whole point.

Supermarkets are a good example: They reduce your bill by 5c or so per bag not used during checkout -- saving 15c per trip is NOT an incentive for someone to change their behavior. But, being charged 5c per bag has a psychological impact -- bags aren't free to anyone, nor the consumer. Why spend 15c per trip, which will add up over the year, when you can buy a permanent bag to do the same -- then it clicks in their head.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[mpfife]

The 'save the environment' excuse is a red herring - and DON'T fool yourself into thinking otherwise. Why? You'll notice on almost any paperless billing (credit cards, utilities, etc) that you ALSO must sign up for automatically withdrawal from your bank account. THIS is the real thing they're trying to get you to do. Because if you also look at the stipulations of their charge dispute terms, if you pay a bill - then you waive all rights to dispute it. In other words, some fraudulent, or just mistaken charge is made on your bill. You may miss it, or forget to check, etc. At any rate, the money will be automatically deducted from your bank account. This could be thousands of extra dollars if someone stole your card/account or just made a big billing error. Unfortunately, when you call them to dispute, they now can say - sorry - you agreed to the charges when you paid. And then be completely SOL. Often times you must submit a request in writing - which might be past the time when you saw it. Again - too late. This happens a lot with credit cards - you can find your bank account completely emptied, or overdrafted with no recourse other then to throw yourself on their mercy. Want to be at the mercy of a credit card companies 'good will' to reduce a charge? So that $1.50 extra is really just you paying for their 'insurance' on fraudulent charges. Don't believe me - go look at almost all paperless billing fine print.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[The Moof]

I'm pretty sure that falls under "NOT in such a way that average users would (a) be able to set it up OR (b) be able to understand and use it properly."

Re:Just reduce the bill

[Dare nMc]

I have wondered why the post office couldn't go electric for many things. IE would it be more efficient to just have a scanner at the post office, you stick in your post card it is scanned and shredded and recycled. They print it out at the other end. If they charge $.20 for post cards, you give a $.05 discount if you have the card scanned, or designed one at a online site. If you give the post office your email address for delivery they pay you $.05 to take e-delivery of post cards, and letters...
I would still appreciate the "fraud is a federal crime, if through USPS" protection for those incoming emails, thus more apt to read (and getting paid!!!) People not wanting to use computers can use it. Other packages still delivered, so still be tied to a physical address, don't need multiple information (ie your physical address is also a email.) Post cards could actually be secure (ok this one would likely require USPS to supply some encryption.)

Re:Just reduce the bill

[oakgrove]

I'm not going to go into the security implications of it, but you could always use this to script the the website and bulldoze through all of the javascript, flash, etc. You can write a script that will take you all the way through logging in, clicking on the "pay my bill" button, fill in your credit card info, everything. Of course, you shouldn't do this.

But you can.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[networkBoy]

my bank aggregates all that stuff in one place.
I have one SSL log in (to my bank), one link to get to all the bills.
My bank won't e-mail me the PDFs because e-mail is not secure. I can download PDFs from the site though.
I tell my bank how much to pay, whether it's recurring or not, etc.
-nB

Re:Just reduce the bill

[wwfarch]

Unfortunately it's strictly against the TOS for the store to offer discounts for cash only. If the store owner got caught doing this they could lose their ability to accept credit cards altogether. Interestingly, they're also not allowed to force people to spend a minimum amount to use credit cards but many do this anyway.

Aside from this, in most cases your 5% discount would be a terrible idea as the credit card charges aren't usually that high (depending on the total sale price). The store may only end up with a 10% margin or something before credit card fees (depending on what they sell). One you take the credit card fees or your proposed 5% discount you end up with margins that are very difficult to live with.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[Smitty825]

I personally pay everything electronically through my bank's website. Also, some people pay their bills using Quicken or some other online payment tool.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[onceuponatime]

No, it's automatically deducted by direct debit.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[onceuponatime]

This is the ideal solution. I would be nice if they could offer multiple delivery options so the client can choose, as loads of non-geeks would of course not be doing that.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[onceuponatime]

I run my own mailserver. I control my own dns. If the bank sends me an E-mail it would go via ssl from their machine to my own encrypted. So, sure I can ask that question. But there are simple solutions to the security of the payload. Send it encrypted, but let me login to download the software and key, one time however instead of everytime.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[onceuponatime]

The sentiment behind the E-mail versus logging into the webserver was all of the time overhead of the logging in, navigating, choosing options etc.

One click authenticated login to directly save the pdf via ssl would remove all of the concern that the posted addressed but reduced my time overhead again to just one click. There are many ways to skin a cat easily.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[c_lee1961]

I still get various reminders even with autopay (e.g. Comcast bills). I can get online versions of the bills/statements if necessary.

If you autopay with credit card (except for the credit card payment itself, of course), you would have that venue for any complaints if necessary.

For me, I don't want to have to pay bills manually. I like autopay.
>
>
That's because you're an freaking idiot.

Autopay is a *SCAM*,pure and simple.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[bzipitidoo]

Going automatic is a scary proposition, fraught with traps. Some fraudulent charge could land on my credit card and be automatically paid before I learn of it. Getting the money back is only one problem. If the charge is big enough, it could overdraw the bank account, and wouldn't the bank love that? Have fun arguing with the bank over the many penalty fees they'll gleefully charge as check after check bounces. Of course, not going automatic means I'm constantly flirting with exorbitant late fees as they play their little games to try to manipulate me into missing the due date. A popular one is to make the monthly due date creep forward, bouncing around a bit to make it less obvious. Over a year, I've had the due date creep from the 15th to the 6th of the month. I dumped that credit card. There's doing without any credit card, but that too is awkward.

Some problems I've had with going paperless is it breaks down, and they don't email an actual statement but instead a mere notification that a new statement is ready for viewing on their website. Lot of rigamarole logging into email, finding the email, then logging into the website and finding the statement. Then it breaks down as sooner or later, I get a notice by snail mail saying they were unable to deliver the latest notification by email and are permanently switching me back to paper. Gets real old setting up paperless again and again.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[vux984]

I have wondered why the post office couldn't go electric for many things. IE would it be more efficient to just have a scanner at the post office, you stick in your post card it is scanned and...

Yes we've had fax machines for decades now...

For something like a postcard or letter, half the value is the fact that it's a hand written card that physically traveled half the world from the other person to you. If the message itself was all that was necessary they could have just sent me picture/text message from their phone, or sent a fax.

Plus we already have several email->fax and email->snail mail services occupying the niche. I don't see the post office getting much from getting involved itself.

IE would it be more efficient to just have a scanner at the post office, you stick in your post card it is scanned and shredded and recycled. They print it out at the other end.

So right off the start it would be printed twice vs just once. It -might- be more efficient, but the savings on shipping would have to be twice as efficient due to the cost of printing it a 2nd time... just to break even.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[seamusbleu]

Sure...once you've logged in to find out how _much_ the bill is for.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[SeaFox]

Why can't the companies just email me a PDF of the bill I normally receive? It would contain the due-date of the bill and how much I owe.

Because it would be an incredible security risk to send a plain PDF containing all of your account information over regular email?

And companies aren't about to get involved in teaching people how to set up their email clients to handle encrypted mail when they can just have you come to their website and view advertsing in the process of getting to your bill instead.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[mantis2009]

email isn't secure - i don't want my bank statements emailed in pdf format to me.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[Darinbob]

Hmm, there's an idea. I personally like the paper bills, because my record keeping is so behind the times that I don't get it into Quicken for ages (years :-). What we need is some standard similar to those useless vCards that I can just click on and add it into my accounts. Then I'd do everything that way. No need for special accounts for bill-pay or importing into quicken.

The next step down from there are the "your bill is available" emails. I don't even get the actual bill, I'm just reminded to go log in somewhere else, after rooting around for my login/password. After that the worst was the auto deposit paychecks I used to have ; no paper, no email, nothing, I had to remember to log in periodically to copy down the information or even to check how much vacation time I had accrued.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[Darinbob]

Agreed. The bills I get in the mail are maybe 1% of the total junk I receive. If people want to save the environment, start with getting rid of all the credit card applications, the Penny Saver, the pizza coupons, the "we have a better mortgage for you!", the twenty appeals per yer per charity (can't they tell that I just gave money a month ago?), the glossy alumni newsletter that I don't want, and the pounds and pounds of investment prospecti. After all that, 3 or 4 bills a month is not much at all.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[khchung]

Others having mentioned phishing, I will and another point.

Do you want your ISP or mail provider (Google or Yahoo) read all you bills and bank statements? That's what will happen if they email you a plain PDF. How about encrypted? Then good luck remembering the password 6 months later when you need to check the old statement, not to mention having to remember dozens of passwords from different sources.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[chrb]

Going automatic is a scary proposition, fraught with traps.

Not if the system works. In Europe the Direct Debit system can be used to pay for most utilities and phone, internet services. There is a guarantee that any money taken from your account will be refunded within 24 hours if you dispute it. As far as I know, in the UK direct debit payments now account for the majority of such transactions. In fact, there are many service providers that only accept payment by direct debit, since the processing fees are so much lower than anything else.

I switched to paying everything - all utility bills, internet, phone, TV - by direct debit over a decade ago, and have never had a single problem with the system.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[arthurpaliden]

That is what my ISP does I save $0.50 every month by having my bill emailed as a PDF.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[Atlantis-Rising]

Credit cards might be raping your store's profits, but what if you can't use credit cards at all? Will your total sales fall off sharply? Obviously it depends on what kind of store you are, but for most stores, the answer is yes.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[smoker2]

They did, in the UK at least. I now get a text when my bill is available online.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[bemymonkey]

Hmmm, I thought this was the norm these days. My bank does it, my mobile phone operator does it, my ISP does it... the only ones that don't are the power/water/heating companies, but they only send like a bill a year.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[Dan541]

'Email would be more efficient, whether it is printed or not is left to the recipient.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[Dan541]

I hate companies that use the "email isn't secure" excuse. How do I tell them "I dont give a crap, just send the dam thing"?

Re:Just reduce the bill

[Dan541]

Why can't the companies just email me a PDF of the bill I normally receive? It would contain the due-date of the bill and how much I owe.

Because it would be an incredible security risk to send a plain PDF containing all of your account information over regular email?

And having it sit unencrypted in a box next to the road is not?

Re:Just reduce the bill

[Dan541]

Nor is regular mail.

The whole "email isn't secure" is mainly tinfoil hat hype, chances are no body is ever going to read that email you just sent. There are allot of things I wouldn't sent via email just to be on the safe side, since interception is still possible however unlikely but I would not send any of those things via the postal service either.

If I want my bill emailed to me then I should have that option.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[vux984]

'Email would be more efficient, whether it is printed or not is left to the recipient.

Agreed. But there is a niche market for the email->snail mail services. They primarily to send to people who don't have computers/email.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[tholomyes]

I would rather not have any sort of personal information, such as detailed account info, sent via email. That's insecure, and that's not cool.

What my cable, credit card, and electric company all do is send out an email saying "your online statement is now available, log on to view", which makes more sense.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[commodore64_love]

Reading comprehension is not your forte' is it? He never said anything about eliminating credit cards completely. He said he'd still offer both but offer a 5% discount for cash customers.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[Chelloveck]

Why not encourage environmentally friendly behavior, instead of punishing for adhering to the status quo.

Even better, adopt TicketMaster's model and charge extra for the electronic version. Just call it a "convenience fee". Why should the company take a hit for providing convenience? They can go digital and increase your revenues at the same time. Win-win!

Re:Just reduce the bill

[Dan541]

Like this?

https://telegram.auspost.com.au/home.do

I don't know if your country has anything similar, but I can see how there is probably a market for it, even if it's a small market.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[Atlantis-Rising]

And my point was that there is a risk in doing so, because the credit card company terms of service prohibit charging more for the use of credit cards and those rules are often selectively and arbitrarily enforced.

Merchants may decide the risk of facing off with Visa or Mastercard is not worth the effort, especially since the two major risks of facing off with them are a) getting severed from credit cards entirely, and b) getting whacked with a huge fine.

Re:Just reduce the bill

[SeaFox]

No, I'm cartainly aware how thievable postal mail is. But snailmail has already been given the blessing of being an okay method of transporting sensitive information by being the legacy carrier technology. It's protected by the virtue that interfering in the delivery of the mail to its intended recipent is a Federal Offense.

Whether this threat of prosecution is actually a practical method of preventing access by non-authorized parties is not the issue.

Email can be copied, redirected, etc without any change in the data. A postal bill being opened is easier to spot.

i like paper bills

[Anonymous Coward]

I personally like paper bills... It helps me keep track of when I've PAID those bills...

Re:i like paper bills

[ktappe]

And you're not using online banking to both pay and track those payments because.....?

Re:i like paper bills

[vlm]

I personally like paper bills... It helps me keep track of when I've PAID those bills...

That is why they dislike them... they love when you have to pay a late fee

Re:i like paper bills

[azadrozny]

I use banking software, however I rely on those paper statements to tell me when exactly the bill is due, and how much. In the past I have opted into electronic statements, but there is no uniformity in how the statements are delivered. Sometimes I get a PDF emailed to me, but often just an email saying the bill is due, then I must login to find the date and amount. This is too inconsistent. I am waiting for the day when I can use my banking software to download a detailed statement from a single application, and then mark it for payment.

Re:i like paper bills

[Carnildo]

I want some protection in case of another incident like the time the gas company accidentally billed me $8000. If that had been set up for direct withdrawl, my rent check and three other utility checks would have bounced before I got the charge reversed, and I'd still be fighting to get it off my credit record.

Re:i like paper bills

[geekoid]

So you keep a pdf of the files in back-up.

discount

[lapsed]

I doubt that they would have gotten the same reaction if they had offered a $1.50 discount to customers agreeing to receive electronic bills.

So...

[ground.zero.612]

When I read things like this I often wonder if the people promoting these environmentally friendly business processes are actually not that environmentally friendly and instead simply motivated by greed. The problem I see is that average (you know, 100 IQ etc.) people are too stupid to realize the business hippy just wants more of their money, and have discovered that using politically correct buzzwords has a calming and mesmerizing effect on the cattle...

Re:So...

[Deltaspectre]

If they were truly environmentally oriented, they would have given a discount for going paperless with the money they save from not sending out paper bills. (I'm sure as heck it wouldn't be anywhere near $1.50/month though! I could print off my bill in triplicate at the library for that much :\)

Re:So...

[ClosedSource]

Actually when it's a simple matter of saving money, the average Joe is probably more savvy than the average Slashdotter.

Re:So...

[valinor89]

Shhh!! Don't type anymore... Do you want to destroy our economy and political sistems? Never told ya truth hurts?

Re:So...

[iamhassi]

"they would have given a discount for going paperless with the money they save from not sending out paper bills. (I'm sure as heck it wouldn't be anywhere near $1.50/month though!"

or even just give them $1 off, doesn't have to be $1.50, or give them something near worthless, like 10 free text messages, or an extra 100 minutes a month.

Re:So...

[Lumpy]

Actually you hit it on the head.

Screw giving a monetary number.

sign up for no paper billing and get an extra 100 minutes a month!

that would be like them giving away $0.08US to each customer.

Re:So...

[mcgrew]

The problem I see is that average (you know, 100 IQ etc.) people are too stupid

IQ tests measure your ability to take an IQ test. The last one I took I scored 140, but I assure you that in a LOT of things that really matter, I'm as dumb as a box of rocks. Don't discount normal people; everybody's a genius at something and an idiot at something else.

Re:So...

[fulldecent]

>> Screw giving a monetary number.

>> sign up for no paper billing and get an extra 100 minutes a month!

Except that overage minutes are billed at 45Â.

So the pitch would be "sign up for no paper billing and get an extra 3 minutes a month!"

Re:So...

[DM9290]

Don't discount normal people; everybody's a genius at something and an idiot at something else.

Some people are only genius at being idiotic.

Paper bills = accountability

[stillnotelf]

While I understand the environmental argument, paper bills make for accountability. With online-only billing, you have no way to resolve certain account disputes, because they hold all the data! I'm not putting on my tinfoil hat and saying they'll deliberately screw up the records and double bill you - but mistakes do happen. Having a paper trail is the best way to protect yourself from mistakes. Also, consider this: what happens to your account when you close it? How can you prove that you had the account once it's closed if it's online-only? With a paper trail, you can prove it! (This applies more to banks than cell phones...)

Re:Paper bills = accountability

[religious freak]

While I don't necessarily disagree with you - how hard is it to mimic a printing process to create nearly perfect replicas of paper bills from any company? I could probably spend a few hours creating a template, go down to Kinko's and have a T-mobile bill in my hand saying whatever I wanted it to say.

Re:Paper bills = accountability

[stillnotelf]

I agree with you in the case of deliberate fraud - with fraud on either side, paper bills aren't going to be a solution. I'm just talking about billing mistakes and (with banking) having a paper trail on closed accounts if the taxman comes...

Re:Paper bills = accountability

[techwrench]

I print my online bills and save them electronically.

I have a copy with the date printed on my electronic copy; plus I have records from the bank as to when the bill was processed.

If the business I am dealing with has a negative reputation for attempting to double-bill, or harassing me when the _bill has been paid_, the bank sends a check. This insures that the bank receives the check back. I print those checks also, if there is any doubt.

A decent bank or credit union will have these features on the website. It makes it sooo much easier to track your expenditures.

Re:Paper bills = accountability

[Lumpy]

Electronic bills != online DB access.

My bank sends me PDF bank statements each month, I can go back to the last one and refer to it at any time. Plus they actually digitally sign them so they are as legally sound as paper ones.

Re:Paper bills = accountability

[cellurl]

Yea, the ebills should be pdf's, not html. That would hold up better in court.

Re:Paper bills = accountability

[theaveng]

It's only fraud if you get caught.
If you don't get caught it's called politics.

Re:Paper bills = accountability

[Virtucon]

You also can't produce records when needed. It's happened to me before regarding checks. Now I don't even get photocopies of the checks I write. First you got your checks back, then you got photocopies of them now nothing. I run a small business and it's essential to get these from time to time. Now I have to go through a hassle, pay the bank and wait a couple of weeks to get copies of the checks. I wouldn't object to electronic billing if I could get easy, verifiable access to PDF files that would stand up in court.

Re:Paper bills = accountability

[Sandbags]

I agree. For anything interest bearing, anytime I have a billing dispute, for purchase records, and more, I print most of my bills anyway. I keep all copies in file for 5-7 years after the account is closed. (only 3 years for my utilities regular bills).

Many companies have tried to make me switch to electronic invoices. I only accept where they automatically send a complete invoice as a non-editable file that can be saved (and printed) seperate from e-mail (aka, not embeded HTML), i do not accept from companies that send me a "reminder" as I'll NEVER go there just to print the bill... and why should I at my time and my expense if I'm not getting discounted for the trouble?

CUT DOWN THE TREES, they're a 100% renewable resource, reduce CO2, and I don't even want to HEAR about landfill space (we have a national shortage of landfills with a multi-hundred year waiting list, and could use as much trash as we can generate that's non-toxic...)

Re:Paper bills = accountability

[DancesWithWolves]

You could save the online bills to your computer. Many of them are available as PDFs. But, yes, it requires a certain discipline on your part rather than just having them show up in the mail.

I also agree with other posters that companies don't generally do this to go "green", but to make a buck. That is why T-Mobile's plan sounds more offensive.

Re:Paper bills = accountability

[Ossifer]

Agreed, as someone that T-Mobile attempted to screw over, I was very glad to have my paper to be able to show them that they were wrong, $400 wrong... They canceled my account, immediately blocked online access to records, and proceeded to charge me an "early termination fee" of $400 (two lines). If I didn't have paper copies, I would have been out $400...

Background: In switching to AT&T, I wanted the process to go smoothly and thus ported my numbers in advance (two weeks) of contract termination, fully intending to pay my normal monthly bill for the period including the two weeks. T-Mobile claimed that by porting my numbers, I had actively canceled my contract early, and claimed this was in the contract I could access online (despite knowing that they had blocked online access). So I pulled out my printed contract from nearly two years earlier, and asked them to cite chapter and verse to back up their claim. They obviously couldn't, it wasn't in there, nor would FCC rules allow it to be. So they backed down.

Re:Paper bills = accountability

[KraftDinner]

While I understand the environmental argument, paper bills make for accountability. With online-only billing, you have no way to resolve certain account disputes, because they hold all the data! I'm not putting on my tinfoil hat and saying they'll deliberately screw up the records and double bill you - but mistakes do happen. Having a paper trail is the best way to protect yourself from mistakes. Also, consider this: what happens to your account when you close it? How can you prove that you had the account once it's closed if it's online-only? With a paper trail, you can prove it! (This applies more to banks than cell phones...)

Who exactly is saying that the e-bills are online *only*. They're electronic and they can be downloaded. Also, who is giving you the paper bill in the first place? Answer, the company trying to bill you. How does electronic billing differ from paper billing in terms of who HAS the data?

Re:Paper bills = accountability

[denobug]

Electronic bills != online DB access.

True. But even PDF documents can be generated dynamically. Many companies does this to save precious storage space. Until there are such guarentees, electronic bills can be synomomous with online DB access.

Re:Paper bills = accountability

[religious freak]

True dat - I still keep my paper statements too. But after many hours of filing one day, I did start to wonder how much power I'd have if I really got in a dispute with the folks I do business with. Or if someone has ever just decided to get a few hundred $$$ out of a company with their "paper" statements.

I guess society just relies on the fact that those that would have the smarts or ability to do something like that don't do it out of conscience and a fear of being caught.

Re:Paper bills = accountability

[jmrives]

Really? I see no significant difference between receiving a digital copy of a bill or invoice and receiving a paper one. This, assuming that they both contain all of the same information and that the digital copy is of an easily viewable, copyable and printable format. In fact, I find the digital version to be a better format if for no other reason than that it is easier to make backups. Now, in reading through the previous post, I see that there seems to be an assumption that the digital version of the bill will somehow remain with the vendor. I am not sure how that would be done and, in any case, it is certainly not my experience. When I receive digital bills, they are either sent to me via email or I receive an email letting me know that I can view it online whenever I like. Viewing bills online always includes the option to print and/or download a digital copy.

Re:Paper bills = accountability

[Darinbob]

Actually, back in college and for some time after that I had to prove certain things to rent or order new services. Ie, present a years' worth of phone bills, copies of my latest paychecks, and so forth. Back in the days before everyone got automatic credit card approval just for being born.

Re:Paper bills = accountability

[BooRolla]

If the company would just email you the bill instead of making you login into their walled garden, you'd have the same copies. Only now they'd be searchable, available anywhere a net connection is, and not subject to getting lost etc. AT&T got that right with their u-verse billing. Frankly, I'm a little shocked AT&T got anything that right :)

Dear T-Mobile...

[Lumpy]

Give a "$1.50 a month Discount" to all customers asking to not have a paper bill sent.

This goes over very well if you give a discount instead of trying to boost your profit margin.

Re:Dear T-Mobile...

[greymond]

They really need to hire a marketing person badly.

Re:Dear T-Mobile...

[Ossifer]

Or maybe charge the real cost (nothing even close to $1.50) for those who opt for paper when signing up new accounts.

Re:Dear T-Mobile...

[zmnatz]

My thoughts exactly. If you're actually trying to save money because paper billing is expensive, then you're better off telling customers they can reduce their bill by going paperless.

Re:Dear T-Mobile...

[Ossifer]

They won't try to charge you $9 if they're truly gentlemen...

Re:Dear T-Mobile...

[The Archon V2.0]

Maybe they weren't trying to make a profit at all?

Are you sure that the cost of sending a paper bill is $1.50?

The stamp alone is $0.40. That leaves $1.10. The paper has a cost. The printing has a cost. The facilities has a cost. The power has a cost. The labor has a cost.

All those things had a cost before this, when they were sending them to everyone. Just like the rent/cost of the building, heating in winter, air conditioning in summer, paychecks of employees, and the photocopier paper Mike in marketing uses to photocopy jokes to pass around, it's built into the other costs you pay for the service.

Oh the irony..

[DiscountBorg(TM)]

I'm all for reducing waste and saving the environment, but so often it seems that the best way to make money off of customers is to invent some kind of 'environment' related fee.. if you are against it, you must not care about the environment! Nevermind the profit.. Pay your $0.25 per plastic bag, and save the environment at the same time by donating $0.245 to the chain *cough* environment.. (Maybe I'm getting a little bitter in my old age here.)

Use less paper then

[Neil Watson]

If T-mobile bills are anything like the ones in my post they could reduce paper by condensing the bills to just one page and stop including fliers to sell me more products. I suspect however, that this was more about another adding another charge and not about actually saving money.

There has been a law passed in my area that charges a few cents for plastic shopping bags. The assumption was that the charge would somehow go to bettering the environment. Instead it goes into the retailer's pocket. Revenue by legislation. Glad I use bins.

Re:Use less paper then

[GNU(slash)Nickname]

There has been a law passed in my area that charges a few cents for plastic shopping bags. The assumption was that the charge would somehow go to bettering the environment.

It does. It causes people to use less bags.

Glad I use bins.

I'm glad you use bins too. Thank you for caring.

Re:Use less paper then

[pavon]

The assumption was that the charge would somehow go to bettering the environment. Instead it goes into the retailer's pocket.

Retails are free to charge whatever they want for their products. The only reason they are the price they currently are, rather than higher, is because they know that if they charged more, they would actually loose money due to decreased business. This is true regardless of whether they are a monopoly charging what the market will bear or a business in a market place where they have to charge competitive prices.

If all the retailers in the area suddenly gain an additional source of revenue, then eventually one will find that they are able to lower their prices and hopefully attract more customers by doing so. Their competitors will have to follow suit. Of course 5c per trip isn't going to be noticeable to customers in and of itself, nor is the additional revenue going to be significant by itself. But it will be factored into the bottom line, and the price decisions will be made based on that bottom line. The obtainable profit margin will not have changed just because of this law.

Speakeasy does this...

[solios]

Seriously. Speakeasy has been doing this for at least the last five or six years, at least with their home service, and nobody's pissing and moaning and calling them evil.

Re:Speakeasy does this...

[blincoln]

nobody's pissing and moaning and calling them evil.

Speakeasy are evil, but the only people who generally know this are the ones who've been bitten by the hidden early-disconnection fee they started charging a few years ago.

Re:Speakeasy does this...

[solios]

Eh. They're no more of an inconvenience than any other ISP, and are far, far less evil than Comcast or Verizon when it comes to what they'll let you do with the connectivity they're selling you.

Going paperless

[Anonymous Coward]

I tried to go paperless with T-Mobile a few months ago and they keep sending me paper bills any way. Is this just to get an extra $1.50 out of me every month? Oh, and if you go paperless you have to agree to have automatic debit from your checking account...make sure you read that part of the fine print.

Re:Going paperless

[mdm-adph]

No, you don't. I have T-Mobile -- signed up for paperless billing, but no where was I required to sign up for any sort of automatic debit. They don't even have a card number on file for me.

Re:Going paperless

[CodeBuster]

you have to agree to have automatic debit from your checking account

That is not true. T-Mobile accepts automatic payment using a filed and active credit card. They also permit online viewing with manual payment if you prefer (direct bank account debit is one of the available options, but it is not the only one). I know because I use T-Mobile with the automatic CC payment option (I keep a special low-limit credit card NOT issued by my bank for small online purchases; although I wish they would allow PayPal and Google Checkout as well).

Re:Going paperless

[OMEGA Power]

Not true. They try to confuse you into signing up for direct debit but it is possible to sign up for paperless billing without it.

Re:Going paperless

[OrangeTide]

they send me a text message every time my bill is due. it works out better for me than a paper billing.

torrent

[Haxzaw]

"Following a torrent of customer complaints" Is that torrent available on the Pirate Bay? I have been unable to find it anywhere.

Re:torrent

[OMEGA Power]

"Following a torrent of customer complaints" Is that torrent available on the Pirate Bay? I have been unable to find it anywhere.

Probably, everything else seems to be

Already a reality

[da_matta]

Here in Finland most mobile & broadband operators charge for the bill. Manual, email and electronic bills are free. There were some outbreaks when the first one did it, but it was eventually accepted (and got a lot of people using electronic billing). Personally, I prefer the electronic billing as you can't lose bills when you get them directly to your bank account.

Re:Already a reality

[Anonym1ty]

What exactly is a manual bill?

Re:Already a reality

[Attila Dimedici]

Here in Finland most mobile & broadband operators charge for the bill. Manual, email and electronic bills are free. There were some outbreaks when the first one did it, but it was eventually accepted (and got a lot of people using electronic billing). Personally, I prefer the electronic billing as you can't lose bills when you get them directly to your bank account.

That's right, they just take some money out of your bank account every month. How much? Who cares, it's easy.
I like to look at my bills when they come in to see if they are high this month. Did I use more text messaging? Was I on the phone over the amount of time that I get as part of the bill? Did the phone company throw some other random charge on there that I want to challenge?

Paper, Accountability

[Anonymous Coward]

Worse than that--instead of issuing signed PDFS, they'd probably do the same thing most online companies do, and either:

    1) have some god awful non-platform agnostic flash application. I'm sorry--if it's for billing purposes, you need to support *MY* computer. I don't accept the notion of any software requirement to get my trash picked up, or pay for the phone bill on my plain old only does phone calls and SMS cellphone.

    2) Use unsigned HTML--in which case I'll print it out anyway, as it's my understanding I need papercopies to comply with tax law. Thanks environmentalists--you've just made me use my own printer, with toner that's probably a worse impact on the environment than whatever they use at their billing facility. But that's okay... because...

most people won't even understand what it would mean to digitally sign a statement (so nobody implements it)... therefore stops me from hitting "view source"--changing my displayed bill from $125 to $25, saving the html, hitting print, and cutting them a check for $25?

Next week when they complain, I underpaid--I send them a copy of my perfectly legitimate bill for $25, and tell them that *they* have a computer error. Since I'm the only one with a paper trail, it's pretty much their error by definition. Every one of their backups says $125? Okay--but I'm still the only person with a legitimate paper trail...

Sorry--paper is out there for a reason.

Re:Paper, Accountability

[jmauro]

Then they call the collection agency for their $100 dollars. And they'll drag you through the fight for years. Sure, you can counter sue, but they'll still win (and it'll still cost you way more than $100 dollars).

They'll get the full amount regardless of how cute you are with editing the bills.

Re:Paper, Accountability

[BAlGaInTl]

With one very large exception... Your paper trail is not "legitimate" at all. As a matter of a fact, I'm sure that doctoring the record would be considered a malicious attempt at fraud.

Re:Paper, Accountability

[Alphanos]

... therefore [sic] stops me from hitting "view source"--changing my displayed bill from $125 to $25, saving the html, hitting print, and cutting them a check for $25?

Next week when they complain, I underpaid--I send them a copy of my perfectly legitimate bill for $25, and tell them that *they* have a computer error. Since I'm the only one with a paper trail, it's pretty much their error by definition. Every one of their backups says $125? Okay--but I'm still the only person with a legitimate paper trail...

Sorry--paper is out there for a reason.

Tip: To make sense out of the above comment, simply print it. Once printed on paper it's automatically true! Paper's pretty magical that way.

Re:Paper, Accountability

[plague3106]

Nobody will do anything to you for only $100. You won't be sued, dragged into court, nothing. At most, it will show up on your credit report, where likely nobody will care about it there either.

I hate the lies

[Lord Byron II]

Companies always pass it off as being "green", but that's not the real reason. T-mobile stores are still overly-lit, selling merchandise that's over-packaged, and handing out paper fliers.

The truth is that its expensive to print bills. And I don't blame them for wanting to get rid of them, but if you're going to save money, then pass a little of it on to me.

My bank just paid me $5 to go to e-bills and for me, that was enough.

Carrot vs. Stick

Re:I hate the lies

[cellurl]

I am surprised no one in this discussion has offered a T-Mobile replacement.... Actually, thats why I read this thread, but nada....
I want to buy an Android-G1, but $1000/yr typical usage, forget it.

can I charge them 1.50$ ?

[goombah99]

If they want me to pay electronically, can I charge them 1.50 for the added risk of electronic commerce? It's one thing to put your check routing number in a paper envelope and sent it by US mail. it's a whole nother level of trust to send it over the internet and rely on their databases to be properly secured. Look at all the whole sale breeches.

Speaking as a victim of identity theft, Personally, my own weighing of the risks is that I wont do electronic commerce other than insured visa cards until the laws are changed to make it their responsibility if they lose my bank account information. When that happens my expectation will be that they will pay the proper attention to security and it will be safer than mailing checks.

Re:can I charge them 1.50$ ?

[Glendale2x]

Your paper check most likely ends up in their ACH database by virtue of it being processed electronically anyway.

Re:As usual, the US is 10 years behind the crowd..

[Synchis]

Many places in Canada also do this. I read the story and wondered what the big deal was.

I believe even Bell Canada now charges for paper statements, and they have an opt-in system for paper bills, instead of opt-out. Now Bell didn't introduce this system all at once either. They did it quietly and grandfathered it in. Any new customers or existing customers who made changes to their accounts were told that they would be charged if they wanted paper. Existing customers that did nothing could continue receiving the paper statements free of charge.

I thought that was a great way to introduce it.

Bell Mobility in Canada too...

[sickens]

Just posted a couple days ago on the CBC: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2009/09/10/nl-bell-twoonie-fee-910.html $2 for paper bills. We could fight it I guess, but no one will, and it's not like it'd do anything anyway :(

A paper bill is a legal document.

[Futurepower(R)]

A paper bill is a legal document. An online bill carries no legal power whatsoever, leaving the account holder with no rights other than what the company wants the account holder to have.

Re:A paper bill is a legal document.

[TooMuchToDo]

The debt is owed whether the bill is paper or electronic. I invoice customers all the time for $1K-$20K in monthly services. I've had to go to court once or twice for people who have tried to make the same argument. The electronic version is just as good as paper.

Re:A paper bill is a legal document.

[KraftDinner]

What a ridiculous statement! Under what contract are you signing does it state "This document becomes void when the debtor is billed electronically" or something along those lines?

Re:A paper bill is a legal document.

[denobug]

Exactly. How can company charge you for the invoice? If a party of the contract expect a payment then they must provide invoice with charges clearly stated. The invoice must be on a medium that is presetable and has legal power in court. Keeping a "copy" of invoice on company's server waiting on customer to retrieve is not considered proper notification, particularly since such monthly statements can be generated dynamically from the database.

Re:A paper bill is a legal document.

[KharmaWidow]

The exact reason I get paper bills. I deduct for home business, I need records. Plus, when you go paperless you have to go to their site and manually download the bill. It would be a different story if they emailed a secure PDF to you.

Re:A paper bill is a legal document.

[CodeBuster]

This is actually a good point that often goes unmentioned when the topic of paperless billing or financial transactions comes up. Paper bills and statements have a long and well litigated history as "official" legal documents. The written and common laws are generally much less clear about electronic files or records; even when additional techniques, such as digital signatures, are employed. If you want to cover your ass legally, then paper is the only way to go, accept no substitutes. However, practically speaking very few people want to legally dispute small bills (like their phone bill) so it sometimes makes sense to go paperless for small and regular bills where the risks are lower and the rewards (less unimportant paper) outweigh them.

Re:A paper bill is a legal document.

[CajunArson]

A paper bill is a legal document. An online bill carries no legal power whatsoever

Wrong. The rest of your post falls into irrelevance.

For those of you who have never taken a Contract Law class, throw out the notion that documents have to be stamped and signed with fancy fonts on
just the right kind of paper to be valid for normal business, that went out of style in the 19th century. Note that some other transactions that are not private contracts may still require notarization and other enhanced forms of evidence like a recording of title, but we are talking about online bills for normal services not transferring title to your house. The online record of your bill has exactly the same legal power as if the record were printed out onto a sheet of paper... in fact if there ever was a legal challenge over the accuracy of the bill, that is exactly what would happen, it would be printed out and submitted as evidence. The form of storage for the information contained in the bill has zero relevance to the legal rights and responsibilities of the parties. For those of you who've heard about the Statute of Frauds, any digital record held by your cable/cell/whatever provider is a "writing" just as if it was hand carved into a block of Italian marble.

Re:A paper bill is a legal document.

[The Moof]

You could have probably avoided spending the time and money in court if you had just sent a paper bill.

Re:A paper bill is a legal document.

[moore.dustin]

This is exactly why I do not use auto-pay or electronic billing as well. Most people and especially judges, do not know the possiblities of electronic bills as evidence. We, as nerds, know that a PDF can be altered in a number of ways to say what you want it to say (fraud). Forging a paper bill that is dated, numbered, postmarked, etc... well that is not going to be challenged easily where as you PDF can be argued to be forged in Photoshop or something.

Re:A paper bill is a legal document.

[TooMuchToDo]

In court because they were trying to stiff us, not because of the type of bill. We send electronically to save the paper/stamp/etc. cost, which if we didn't save it, gets passed to the customer.

why a fee?

[buback]

They could have just given those who go paperless a $1.50 credit, and then in a years time raise the plan rates by $1.50
Why is it that companies do the stupid thing in an invisible, underhanded way, and the smart things in a way most likely to prompt a customer backlash?

Even better idea

[presidenteloco]

Because paper bills are unnecessary now,
and are therefore an unjustifiable environmental cost,
the government should charge a "sin tax" on such unnecessary
paperwork. The tax could then be passed on to the consumer,
who of course has the option to turn off their paper bills and
save the tax.

I know you Americans don't like government very much,
but this might be a nice extra revenue that could be put to use
for other environmentally beneficial programs.

Tax shifting is the way to go. Increase environmental sin taxes,
and decrease income tax to compensate if you feel strongly that
it should be revenue neutral. The Green Party has been advocating
this for 25 years, and we're tired of being so far ahead. Catch up
please. Steal our policy and call it your own!

Re:Even better idea

[denobug]

How would you like if your government charge for "unnecessary eating", or just charge your for having to eat? Oh wait, you are breathing their air, let me tax you on that as well...
Oh I thought of a better one. Why don't I charge you for the mail that I sent you the tax bill on? Since we need to save the environment everyone who request the government delivering proof of the legitimacy of the charges shall be charged in addition for their "sins". What a hoax!

Proper notifications for billing is inalienable right in a contract. For many this is still the common medium that can be view and verified by many, so this is NOT unnecessary paperwork. You must be able to trace where the charge came from, in business 101. If your country does not allow that or consider that necessary, I feel sorry for you. But please, please, please don't tell me I have to give up my rights just like you do, under the disguise of saving the environment. We can save the environment a lot better with many other things than not giving out invoices to the customers.

Re:Even better idea

[Tarsir]

I'm Canadian, and even I thought this was a joke at first. Taxes are expensive. Everything you tax needs to be tracked by the government so they know what their income will be for the year, and tracked by the taxpayer (be it a citizen, or a corporation), so they know what to pay. Then you need to enforce all these taxes. All of this takes time and money from players in the system.

I'm not a libertarian, but I see where they are coming from. Governments are like large software projects. Giving a role to the government is like adding a feature to the software project. Sure, having lots of features is nice, and it'd be great the government could limit unnecessary paperwork, and do other helpfule things, but every time you give a role to the government, you incur overhead. Eventually, if you give the government too many roles, it becomes bloated and inefficient, like a software project with too many features.

Bloody stupid

[wcrowe]

Who is the bloody stupid PHB who came up with this? If you want people to accept non-paper bills, you don't charge them $1.50 to continue to receive paper bills. What you do is give them a $1.50 discount (or some other incentive) to get the electronic bill instead.

Be sure to print "-$1.50 Green Discount" on the bill too. The fools will love you for it. In fact, they may not even notice when you raise their fees $3.00 six months later.

Re:Is electronic bill paying really greener?

[themaneatingcow]

Most of us have our computers on all the time anyway. Is there really any added cost from downloading a pdf?

Re:Is electronic bill paying really greener?

[frosty_tsm]

When you factor in the gas used to transport the mail, plus the servers used by the shipping company, the gas used to cut the trees, transport them, make paper, etc, it quickly becomes more energy efficient to send things electronically.

Like T-Mobile doesn't already suck enough

[KC1P]

I might actually care what they were saying if they weren't already nickel-and-diming me with little fees. I understand why they don't include taxes in the quoted price (I think that's state law, for most things other than fuel the sales tax *has* to be itemized separately) but they stick in a bunch of other fees that *aren't* taxes but somehow they feel OK pretending that the quoted price is real. (Yes I know all the other cell companies do it too but that doesn't make it OK.) So I don't believe for a second that the $1.50 is anything other than yet another cash grab.

 

It doesn't help that T-Mobile is so awful. I've had them (and their predecessors Voicestream and Omnipoint) for over ten years (only because I refuse to sign a contract, and Sprint PCS and Virgin Mobile had even worse quality), and I can't think of *anywhere* that used to have no coverage but now does. Do they EVER put up new towers? Where I live now, I have to drive into town just to check my voice mail. LOTS of dropped calls everywhere else (including interstates). Anyway an extra $1.50 a month would be enough to remind me that crappy cell phone service is something I don't really need in the first place.

Re:Is electronic bill paying really greener?

[Leto-II]

I'd be curious about the relative green-ness of electronic versus paper bill paying.

you used how many watts of energy to have your computer on, to have your screen on, to have the modem on, and then all the downstream electronics from your house, compared to the energy it needed to produce, deliver and process the bill.

Are you assuming that all those electronic components would have been turned off otherwise? I hardly think that is a valid assumption. Whether or not I get an electronic bill, my computer, screen, router, etc. will all be turned on and suckling data from the sweet teat of the Internet.

Raise prices a penny and call it a discount

[gurps_npc]

I mean really. Is it that hard to figure out? OK, so maybe you don't raise prices for six months and just eat it for that period. People think of paper bills as a necessity, not a luxury. You charge for luxuries but offer discounts to remove a necessity. Everyone is happy that way.

Signed PDF?

[ubergeek65536]

Why not allow customers to download or get emailed a digitally signed pdf copy of the statement or bill.

If they could just get it right...

[onceuponatime]

I hate that. But only because they get it wrong. O2 do that with the iphone accounts and you cannot get them to change it. I used my iphone for business and have to save the bills so I left them. I wouldn't have a problem if they simply gave you the option to receive the bills as pdf's via email, so the amount of work I have to save them is to just push a button. That would then be preferable to paper bills, however, forcing you to login and navigate their website and download them and if you forget one month do more work is just too much trouble to stay with the provider, so I left them for a provider which did provide paper bills.

Why can't they just get it right? It's not rocket science.

Re:If they could just get it right...

[Stewie241]

I hate that. But only because they get it wrong. O2 do that with the iphone accounts and you cannot get them to change it. I used my iphone for business and have to save the bills so I left them. I wouldn't have a problem if they simply gave you the option to receive the bills as pdf's via email, so the amount of work I have to save them is to just push a button. That would then be preferable to paper bills, however, forcing you to login and navigate their website and download them and if you forget one month do more work is just too much trouble to stay with the provider, so I left them for a provider which did provide paper bills.

Why can't they just get it right? It's not rocket science.

Because launching that sort of data all over the Internet in an unsecure channel isn't necessarily a good thing?

Agreed though that they do need a good way to do it.

Ian

Re:If they could just get it right...

[D'Sphitz]

Because launching that sort of data all over the Internet in an unsecure channel isn't necessarily a good thing?

Opposed to the security of a paper bill sitting in your unlocked mailbox all day?

Re:If they could just get it right...

[onceuponatime]

I agree. My mail server supports tls. Most people who have online mail servers connect via ssl.

If they insist on using a webserver, they could make it considerably easier for you if the link in the E-mail was a direct https link to the pdf document itself, so after entering your name and password you are immediately saving your document and you can get on with your life. Give the client a choice as to what he would prefer, insecure mail box, or E-mail or one click https link to save.

Oh and while you are at it, have the provider keep the details online in the same conveniently accessable form for 7 years.

Re:If they could just get it right...

[onceuponatime]

And we are not even talking banks here, just telephone company bills. For that matter, how secure is "repeatedly entering two random digits of your fixed reusable password", but even banks do it that way here in England in any case.

They don't have to send the passcode by mail, I'd permit myself to login via https to retrieve that.

Re:If they could just get it right...

[onceuponatime]

So far I see two very simple and viable secure means:

a) Send encrypted, digitally signed pdfs, provide the passcode via logging in once with https

b) Make the link directly launch you into the document download dialog (i.e the file browser to choose the saving location) for the bill for the month after entering your credentials via https.

Both the above approaches are as secure as any method mentioned here, but involve a single click save to allow me to get on with my life.

Re:If they could just get it right...

[Stewie241]

Yes... but there is a connection between the two mail servers that most likely is not secure.

I would argue that paper mail is more secure because if somebody wants to grab data it involves walking from house to house to get it. Most likely more than once because you wouldn't necessarily know when that bill would arrive.

In addition, with an electronic mailing, you have no idea that it may have been sniffed out along the way, potentially with all of the people you contacted over the past month and when.

Now, I would fully support companies getting their act together and supporting encrypted email and educating users as to how they might go about doing that.

Or, as you suggest, making archives available, so that I don't necessarily need to get the PDF emailed to me every month. Instead, I know that it is available whenever I want it, and I can either click twelve links at the end of the year and download them, or instead grab an archive containing all my bills.

Re:If they could just get it right...

[onceuponatime]

When mail is transmitted with transport level encryption, the attacker would have to implement a man in the middle attack to read the mail, which is more involved that simply looking at the stream and also requires the attacker to have access to some readable part of the path from source to destination mail server. This is somewhere in the ISP and most of this is over switches, which again are not so easily sniffed, or on a host that is routing the mail itself. And as we are just talking telephone bills and not banking data here, that's a lot of conditions that you have to put together to get at risk, and for what? Maybe the odds of a paper attack are then about the same?

Changes

[CopaceticOpus]

The lesson here is that you once people get used to something, it's very hard to change. People are used to free paper bills, so they're going to put up a fight when T-Mobile tries to change that. On the other hand, people are used to being gouged on the pricing of text messaging, so they don't put up enough of a fight to get that changed.

The text message pricing is far more offensive, but it's not new. And besides, if you don't like it, where else are you going to go? So much for free market competition.

Re:Changes

[the eric conspiracy]

I don't find text messaging rip-off to be particularly offensive because I just don't do that.

But I do find the various equipment and service bundling agreements so be extraordinarily annoying.

Fortunately it sounds like enough people are pissed about it that it may get regulated.

The farm trees for paper, like they farm wheat

[Anonymous Coward]

I never understood the "save a tree" crap.
They farm trees for paper, the same way they farm wheat for bread.
If I don't eat a slice of bread no one commends me for saving a stalk of wheat.

Yeah, I know there are other things that are environmental problems besides growing the trees, but it was "saving the trees" that was the root cause of this "don't use paper" admonition.

Environmentalism causes a lot of superstitious behaviour.

Re:The farm trees for paper, like they farm wheat

[jackbird]

Paper making uses a lot of fresh water, energy, and noxious chemicals, so "save a tree" is shorthand for "mitigate the environmental damage from more paper production." Also, unnecessary waste of anything isn't a great idea. And as for your bread analogy, apparently you didn't grow up in a household where "but children are starving in $HELLHOLE!" was considered a compelling argument for eating something.

Nextel / Sprint has been charging for a while

[slaad]

Nextel / Sprint has been charging for a paper bill for a while now (a year or two at least). T-Mobile must cater to a different crowd.

Re:Nextel / Sprint has been charging for a while

[SeaFox]

I used to get a detailed audit of every phone call I made on my T-Mobile bill, for years after other carriers stopped offering it. Sometime in the last year T-Mobile stopped doing this as well, they now charge $3.50 for a detailed statement like that. Funny thing is I never recall any notice they were going to stop doing that. Just at some point I saw the call list was no longer there.

E-bills

[Xerfas]

With Telenor and TeliaSonera (large swedish mobile carriers) amongst others here in Sweden you can get e-bills instead right into your online bank. So the $1.50USD is less then what I would pay for a paper bill which is $2.9USD by todays currency market (I checked google) and we don't get that much complaints about it. So I can't understand why the US can't have this too. E-bills is the way to go, easier to pay the bills if you already use online banking, but then again online banking is probably more common in a small country like Sweden then in USA.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

How do they digitally sign them?

[wsanders]

Just curious - how do they do this? Do they send you a checksum? My online back statement are just plain old PDFs.

Re:How do they digitally sign them?

[thona]

They SIGN them. DIgital signature, using a certificate. Check your reader, this is part of the PDF specifications.

Re:Is electronic bill paying really greener?

[D Ninja]

A modem? What's that?

(Note: I'm just joking. I can still "sing" the sound my modem used to make while dialing up the provider.)

There were two fees, not just one

[realsilly]

I read the on-line announcement days before it was to go into effect. I was appalled. There wasn't just one fee, but 2 separate ones.
Fee 1: Paper Bill with no details would cost the consumer $1.50 per bill.
Fee 2: Paper Bill with full detaila would cost and extra $1.99 per bill.

While it was available to opt out on their website and receive the e-bill, even then it wasn't an email or something kind like that. It was an email that basically stated your bill is ready. If you wanted details you had to go to T-Mobile and pull up your account just to look at your bill. Even now they aren't very detailed on their webpage, by my standards.

I personally use paper bills especially when something important has to be documented. While I'm tech savy, I don't appreciate being forced into options that aren't good for the customer. Had they promoted things differently or had diminished the cost to something way more reasonable I probably would not have been appalled by the Fees they were about to impose. But knowing that there are people who still don't use a PC or the internet, and only use a cell for emergencies, that really raised my eyebrows.

When I called today, because their on-line description of my account usage was confusing, that is when they told me that the fees have been nixed.

T-Mobile almost lost me as a customer with that move. They need to improve their customer service reputation that they've now hurt and they need to make their web site's account management and display of billing information more clear and concise.

Re:There were two fees, not just one

[realsilly]

Per the article
"T-Mobile had some time ago scaled back to sending customers only a summarized written bill and instituted a $2 fee for those wishing to receive a more detailed accounting. The latter fee will apparently remain in place."

So if you opt for detailed billing you're still being hit with a charge.

Yes, particularly with T-Mobile, who lie

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Exactly.

I'm going to be leaving T-Mobile UK shortly, because they overcharged me for several months having screwed up a transfer to a new package, and then had the audacity to accuse me of lying because I didn't notice the small amount in question immediately. (There is now way that any reasonable person with my usage history would have asked for the combination of facilities they claim I did: it was basically the new package plus part of my old package providing essentially the same service that they hadn't cancelled properly.)

In this case, it's not really worth chasing them for the small amount of money concerned, I'll just take satisfaction in voting with my wallet. However, having the itemised, printed bills from them would certainly have been useful had it been worth going to court over.

Also, it's interesting that they told me a few years back that they wanted to stop sending me itemised bills, immediately after I'd caught them overcharging me using the itemisation just the previous month. They do charge for itemisation, which I rather resent, since they demonstrably aren't trustworthy to charge me a varying sum of money each month without explaining where it comes from.

New Service Offered

[KharmaWidow]

Mail me your paper-bills, I'll scan them and email them to you (they dont even email them to you). Charge is $5 per bill and that will save the environment even more because the price is higher!

Secure email?

[minion]

What I hate, is when my bills come VIA EMAIL. That is highly insecure. I'm not naming any names on this, but a few businesses I've done business with will charge a fee if you don't go paperless, and then they send all your transactions to you via plain text email.

That is bad. Very bad. I much prefer the "Your statement is ready, click here" and you have to login.

I think it'd be awesome if some of these companies would send this stuff to you via PGP, but alas too much of the population sucks for them to ever care to use that.

T-Mobile Customers == doing it wrong

[idiotnot]

If they're going to institute a change in contract terms, you should be able to get out of your contract.

None of this class action nonsense, pick up and GTFO. /Former t-mob customer, who left after his onerous 2 yr contract with a horrid WinMob phone finally ended //Likely will never go back

Already happened here too.

[Radical Emu]

Here in England, mobile company Orange has been charging for paper bills for a while now.

The transition happened with little or no notice for me (my account still being at my parents house, I never read the bills, so I can't say 100% that they notified me) which is rather annoying, but it was worse for my partner.

She recieved an SMS from them to say they would start charging for paper bills (statement still comes free) and there was an option to opt-out (from a non-spam source) which she did.

lo and behold, full paper bills still came, with a charge, that wasn't refunded.

Worse still (if only a shade off-topic), they've been charging for delivery reports for 3 years, making their "free unlimited texts" rather dubious. I know not everyone uses them, but it's a bugger for me, as often I need to know the message has arrived!

We're not talking about the rights of the company.

[Futurepower(R)]

We're not talking about the rights of the company. We are talking about the rights of the account holder.

If you don't have a paper bill, it may be in some cases difficult to assert any rights you have concerning mistakes in the bill.

It takes a LOT of time to download your bills.

[Futurepower(R)]

Exactly. It takes a LOT of time to download those bills. Banks like Chase have VERY slow web sites; they apparently don't want to buy enough computer equipment.

It's common that the Chase web site times out before a page loads. Complaining to the company has exactly no effect. In the U.S., a big bank or telephone company can do anything it likes.

Fido does it

[alexandre]

In the mean time Fido (a Rogers subsidiary, in Canada) is charging 2$ for this without anyone complaining! :P
(well yes, we live in a monopolistic telecommunication regime, you'd probably get shot...! )

Need better coverage

[TechnologyResource]

If they had better coverage, they could charge for the paper bill.

You cannot prove anything without a paper bill.

[Futurepower(R)]

No one is saying that no contract exists. We are just saying that you can't prove anything to a court unless you get a paper bill. What you saved to your computer could have been made by anyone.

Re:You cannot prove anything without a paper bill.

[SeximusMaximus]

One piece of evidence is not generally dispositive to an entire case. You build a case with lots of pieces of evidence. As for the GP, the SoF only comes into play when required to by law, generally on large purchases (house, car, etc) and not with standard bills and purchases. As for the Parent, you are correct. In case anyone is wondering what the FRE says: http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rules.htm#Rule1001 -- FRE 1001 (1) Writings and recordings. "Writings" and "recordings" consist of letters, words, or numbers, or their equivalent, set down by handwriting, typewriting, printing, photostating, photographing, magnetic impulse, mechanical or electronic recording, or other form of data compilation. -- The FRE does say that electronic records are just as valid as there organic counterparts, so yes, the GP is wrong.

I'm a T-mobile customer, who hated the plan

[seebs]

One simple reason:

Thanks to spam, and the refusal of ISPs to take action about spam, email is not reliable enough for documents like this.

When Level3 stops hosting the five or six consistent 24/7 spammers I've been complaining to them about for the last year straight, and my spam load is otherwise improved enough that the filters can be scaled back and I can still get work done, I'll think about electronic statements. Right now, email is simply not reliable enough. (And no, I can't count on whitelisting, because I can't trust companies like T-Mobile to send their own mail from a consistent address and host -- and if they use an ESP, they may well use one which has a history of spam, and gets filtered.)

This is a cost-of-spam issue. When spam stops imposing huge risks of lost information, I think email will be a great choice for things like this, and I'll sign up for them. That hasn't happened yet.

What happens if I leave T-Mobile?

[rlh100]

What happens if I leave T-Mobile and am no longer a customer? Do they keep my account enabled for seven years so I can view my old online bills? Or do I have to call an operator answer a gazillion questions and then get charged for paper copies?

Does the IRS accept printed copies of the bills as valid receipts?

And how do we know that T-Mobile has not changed the electronic records?

Questions, questions, questions
RLH

Re:What happens if I leave T-Mobile?

[kramerd]

I assume you pay your bills at some point, perhaps using a bank account of some sort?

In other words, you aren't sending T-mobile cash each month to pay your bills?

Then your bank has records of what you have paid. T-mobile has records of their aggregate financials, which are audited, and are publicly available, called a 10k (annual) or 10q (interim financials).

T-mobile at some point has provided your bill, so if you want your February 2004 bill for your records, it is your responsibility to keep your records. If T-mobile keeps your records anyway, there is a customer agreement that you have agreed with in order to do business with T-mobile, that either specifically points out the requirements for back billing receipts or states that T-mobile can change this whenever they want.

The seven years of records requirement is for publicly traded companies, not individuals. Your taxable statute of limitations is much shorter, unless you have committed fraud, in which case seven years also doesn't apply (no statute of limitations). If you have committed fraud, I wouldn't worry so much about whether t-mobile has proof of it, but rather about why it is of such a scale that the IRS is investingating your t-mobile bills to find it.

Of course the IRS accepts printed copies of bills as valid receipts. What the hell do you think a receipt is? Its a printed copy of a bill.

You think that T-mobile, who keeps records, to the minute, of the phone number called from, the phone number called to, the registered location of both phones during the call, the location where your call originated if a cell phone, the number of times you have made a phone call between specific phone numbers in a billing period, the text of any text you send or receive, the time, date, and amount of all billings and payments; all in the hope that you will just buy an unlimited plan that you don't need, is going to be able to change their electronic records? Are you daft?

Well, thats five questions that everyone else on /. already knew the answer to. For once, the quote at the bottom of the page (He missed an invaluable opportunity to hold his tongue - Andrew Lang) is appropriate.

Fails the mom test

[sjbe]

a) Send encrypted, digitally signed pdfs, provide the passcode via logging in once with https

Fails the mom test. I can't wait to get the phone call to explain this to my parents. ("Honey? Is this attachment safe? Why is it asking me for a password? I don't know any password. I don't like this. What's wrong with a paper bill.... etc. etc.)

Re:Fails the mom test

[onceuponatime]

Give the user choice. Mom can login and do the useless crap that takes a lot of time.

Personally, I want the fast solution.

Hell I don't even mind if you make mom's choice the default and I have to login to choose my preferred option. I just want the option.

Bills should come to me

[sjbe]

I want some protection in case of another incident like the time the gas company accidentally billed me $8000. If that had been set up for direct withdrawl, my rent check and three other utility checks would have bounced before I got the charge reversed, and I'd still be fighting to get it off my credit record.

This is exactly the reason that I allow no direct debit of bills. Some I have charged to a credit card which I can dispute and pay (or not) in the event of an error but they don't get any cash from me directly without me explicitly authorizing it. I'm an accountant and I've seen more than enough screwed up bills to think auto debit is a horrible idea most of the time.

The reason I mostly insist on paper bills still fundamentally that I have to go find the bill instead of the bill coming to me. Each vendor I deal with does it differently and I have zero interest in logging on to a half dozen different websites, each with their own password and interface to find out the amount of the bill. With a paper bill, the bill comes to me instead of me going to the bill. If they want to deliver an ecrypted pdf in the format *I* want, then I'll be happy to receive electronic statements. Ideally I could download the pdf directly into Quicken.

The solution

[geekoid]

is to sue a drop daed easy to use online system, and advocate it heavily. People will move if it's easier and trusted.

I should go to a simple website, be able to pay either with a reoccurring account or monthly, look at a bill and be able to look at that bill again in 10 years.

MetroPCS

[User0x45]

My provider, a regional cell-phone company MetroPCS already charges $2.00 USD for a paper bill.
What is this I hear about a class-action law suit?

--User0x45

Gas and electric charge $1.50 MORE to pay online

[noidentity]

My gas and utility companies charge a $1-$1.50 "convenience fee" to pay online. Why I'd want to pay for the hassle of using their awful online sites is beyond me. With a mailing, I merely pay $0.44 for the stamp, and have the added bonus of not exposing my credit card number to interception online.

The gas company also periodically sends mailings about how you can read your own meter yourself. If they want to reduce the outrageous $9.75 customer fee per month, I might consider reading my own meter. Ditto for eliminating the physical mailing.

And then there's automatic bill payment. I'm sure I'd have to pay a convenience fee for that, despite the fact that this makes it more likely to overdraw my account. With a paper bill, I know when the money is being withdrawn, and can delay it if money is tight for that month (sure, I might pay a few-dollar late fee, but that beats $25+ for an insufficient funds fee).

Re:as someone who processes paper payments....

[Dan541]

Fraud can be done via snail mail too.

Just in time

[Sqreater]

I have T-Moble and it was my intention to cancel my service and go to AT&T with the first charge for a paper bill. I don't bother complaining about such things. Time and energy are limited. I just act. Same with credit cards. No man is an island and the complainers are just the tip of the iceberg. Sqreater

I have OFTEN discovered sneaky telephone charges.

[Futurepower(R)]

"However, practically speaking very few people want to legally dispute small bills (like their phone bill)..."

Suppose you want to dispute an illegal charge that you noticed only after a year? That could be a lot of money.

I have OFTEN discovered and disputed sneaky charges on my telephone bill. Our local telephone company is 100% dishonest in the sense that it will try anything sneaky that makes more profit, in my opinion.

In practice, there are problems.

[Futurepower(R)]

What is in the law and what actually happens may be two different things.

Re:In practice, there are problems.

[SeximusMaximus]

Are you really denying that people are not able to submit their electronic bills as evidence in cases. You are sorely mistaken is your are claiming that. Electronic records are just as, if not more, vital than purely paper records. E-discovery laws have been added to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, I have shown you the sections of the FRE - but perhaps you would feel better if we all argued in incorrect 'truisms'.

Paper

[SCHecklerX]

The trees are grown for that purpose
Young trees soak up more CO2 than old ones.

I guess there is the chemicals used to create the paper argument.

Better tell Era GSM to compress billings.

[SharpFang]

I work in a company, who is, amongst all, into weather monitoring systems.

So there are like 50 automatic weather stations all over the region, most running off batteries (normal or solar), each sending about a kilobyte of data collected over the last hour, every hour, over GSM. They run a telemetric tariff billed PLN0.01/each 10kB ($0.003) or each started connection. They can't keep the connections running because of limited battery capacity - they need to reconnect every time.

And each month we get about 300 pages of paper billings filled with entries like

17.09.2009 15:48 | outgoing data | 1kB | PLN0.01
17.09.2009 15:48 | incoming data | 1kB | PLN0.01
17.09.2009 16:48 | outgoing data | 1kB | PLN0.01
17.09.2009 16:48 | incoming data | 1kB | PLN0.01
17.09.2009 17:48 | outgoing data | 1kB | PLN0.01
17.09.2009 17:48 | incoming data | 1kB | PLN0.01

with about 700 such entries per each station.

We can ask for electronic invoices but billings are only paper.