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Shuttleworth Suggests 1-Way Valve For User Experience Testing

darthcamaro writes "No surprise but Ubuntu's Mark Shuttleworth has come out swinging in favor of the Linux desktop. Speaking at Linuxcon yesterday he detailed the things that he thinks Linux requires in order to win the desktop wars. Those include: co-ordinated software releases, better quality and design, some user experience testing and oh yeah, a dose of 'shut the f*** up' too. During his keynote, he extended an invitation to any open source application to submit their software for testing by user-experience experts. The sessions would be recorded for posterity, and the developer would not be able to interact with the user. "'If the developer is in the room, they have to say nothing. It's the shut the f*** up protocol,' Shuttleworth said. 'You sit and watch someone struggle with the software that you've so lovingly produced.'"

72 of 757 comments (clear)

  1. We are our own problem. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Users always ruin the best software.

    1. Re:We are our own problem. by Romancer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      User satisfaction with software is inversely proportional to how much work they must do - how many separate actions they must take - to accomplish something.

      Yes.

      I.e., competently designed software obsoletes the user, making user acceptance testing extraneous.

      No.

      Competently designed software allows users to do the tasks they have to do without unnecessarily complicated actions and time wasting steps. That's why we don't code in MS Word and do excel spreadsheets in machine language within emacs. We could use those methods but the software has been written that allows us to do them better. The software does not do it for us and it cannot create as varied an output as is capable from humans yet. So the software should not get in the way of the user and should help perform tasks. The STFU method tells us that if a group of users strugled to find a simple or easy feature to perform a task, the software may need to be adjusted. Perhaps just the GUI color or menu label, but if the people out there cannot find something or have trouble doing a task that the software can perform if they just new how. There is a problem. More training is easy to prescribe but it can be avoided for good promotion of user experiences. How many times have people fixed a linux distro to make it easier to do a task. Cat, Grep, etc. Rather than programming in perl all the time to get basic features, these tools have been added to make it easier. Same thing in the GUI world. Make it easier and it is more useful.

      --


      ) Human Kind Vs Human Creation
      ) It'd be interesting to see how many humans would survive to serve us.
    2. Re:We are our own problem. by mcmonkey · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The way to do usability testing is to watch lots of users work with the product and pay attention to the most common problems they have, but not necessarily to listen to what they say. If they say "I don't understand feature X", then fine. If they say "You know what would make this better, you should add feature Y", then you should probably ignore them.

      Not that you ignore those comments completely, but if you are to control the development process (your only hope of getting a final product with any sanity) you absolutely must separate requirements gathering and user/usability testing.

      So when the user says "You know what would make this better, you should add feature Y", you make a note of it and switch the focus back to the features the product does have.

      If it turns out later 4 out 5 users ask about feature Y, then maybe it goes in to the next version. But testing is not requirements gathering.

    3. Re:We are our own problem. by MozeeToby · · Score: 2, Insightful

      User satisfaction with software is inversely proportional to how much work they must do - how many separate actions they must take - to accomplish something.

      Yes.

      I wouldn't even give him that much. There are innumerable examples of simple shortcuts that save tons of time but people don't know about them; just because they exist doesn't mean that they are helpful to the user. For example, my wife has shown her coworkers how to do a simple mail merge about 20 times, but they still do it by hand (swearing and complaining the whole time) because they just don't get it. Also, just because an option is only buried 3 layers deep in a menu (as opposed to 5 or 6 say) doesn't mean jack if the user can't find it and spends five minutes searching around for the right menu. Drop the 'must' out of what he said and it would be a lot more accurate ("...how many action they take") since that reflects the fact that user satisfaction varies by how familiar the user is with the software as well as the software itself.

    4. Re:We are our own problem. by cheftw · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If it's too easy, it's not worth doing.

      The is a reason why some good software is difficult to use, you have to learn it. You will learn it, because it's worth it.

      For an simple example see clicking vs. keyboarding; if you know your keyboard shortcuts you can do a lot of things a lot more quickly. It takes a time investment that a lot of (l)users are not willing to give, but it'll pay off soon enough.

      It's a good thing you can't just sit down and work productively with 3dsMax, or emacs, or C, if you could they wouldn't be as good as they are.

      --
      Always back up, never back down. ---- Think you're cool 'cos your uid is prime? Take mine, modulo the one digit integers
  2. Kudos to him! by jackharrer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    He knows what he's talking about. We don't need more RMS but more people like Shuttleworth. Pragmatically minded, not focused only on ideals. If somebody wants follow only ideas I suggest Green Peace or monastery.

    --

    "an experienced, industrious, ambitious, and often, quite often, picturesque liar" - Mark Twain
    1. Re:Kudos to him! by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      We don't need more RMS but more people like Shuttleworth. Pragmatically minded, not focused only on ideals.

      Right. There are definitely not enough people to go around.
      Damn those idealists, sucking up all the available people, keeping them from getting anything done.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    2. Re:Kudos to him! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah! Ideals are for losers!

      FFS.

      Did it ever occur to you that without RMS there would be no Shuttleworth?

    3. Re:Kudos to him! by ceoyoyo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yup, just like BSD. Er....

    4. Re:Kudos to him! by node+3 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is Linux, we can have, and need to have, both.

      There will be free Linuxes, like Debian. There will be "pragmatic" Linuxes, like Ubuntu. There will be all sorts of Linuxes in between.

      Linux requires both the RMS types and the Shuttleworth types in order to both survive (RMS) and grow out of its niche (Shuttleworth).

    5. Re:Kudos to him! by phantomfive · · Score: 5, Insightful

      People who forget the lessons of the past are bound to repeat them. RMS is right, and it is only upon the foundation that he started that Mark Shuttleworth has anything to stand.

      Not saying Mark Shuttleworth is doing a bad job, but when you start saying things like, "It's either Richard or Mark! One or the other!" you've kind of gotten off base. They both have good things to say and actually for the most part are in agreement.

      --
      Qxe4
    6. Re:Kudos to him! by h4rr4r · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, the state of the binary ATI driver is a far bigger problem.

      They can oppose it all they want, but last I checked both are available and the NVIDEA one actually even works.

    7. Re:Kudos to him! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      yeah, and which one has been far more successful again? exactly. now go pretend like you didn't just overlook something that's blatantly obvious to everyone else.

    8. Re:Kudos to him! by node+3 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It was opposition to binary-only drivers that kicked off the formal free software movement in the first place, and it has helped. Greatly.

      In the short-term, binary drivers are often a better choice. Some driver is better than no driver, right? But in the long run, free/open source drivers are usually better. Just look at how crashy and difficult to work with the Nvidia drivers have been. Or how severely limited the ATI drivers were.

      What's more, the fact that the binary Nvidia drivers are treated as a sort of pariah helps Linux overall in that there are probably numerous other drivers that might have been released as binary-only drivers, but for fear of being rejected by the Linux community. Nvidia can get away with it because they are so large, they can say "my way, or the high way". Up to a point. But if binary-only drivers were treated as completely legitimate, every other hardware maker would be motivated to release binary drivers instead of open source drivers.

      They may make life difficult sometimes, but you should thank those "rabid" idealists, because they also make life better for you. Without them, there wouldn't have even been a Linux in the first place.

    9. Re:Kudos to him! by sconeu · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Uh, you do realize that you are agreeing with Shuttleworth? He wants the developers to STFU and watch how the end-users use the software, so they can see that their UI sucks.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    10. Re:Kudos to him! by ClosedSource · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "I see no freely licensed BSD systems before 1993."

      That's because of the legal issues with AT&T. Linus has been quoted as saying that if BSD UNIX had been available at the time, he probably wouldn't have written Linux.

      So one could argue that the existence of Linux owes more to AT&T than just the creation of UNIX.

    11. Re:Kudos to him! by spiffmastercow · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Define successful. From what I can tell Mac (using code "borrowed" via BSD), has a lot more desktop users than Linux. Or OpenBSD, which has far more success in developing a secure OS than Linux.

    12. Re:Kudos to him! by david_thornley · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Without RMS, we might not have anything like modern Linux. With due respect to Linus' ability to run a very large project, I think the GPL was vital in getting so many people working on Linux. Further, there's an awful lot of Gnu software in every Linux distro, which is due to RMS' work in creating a Free OS based on Unix.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    13. Re:Kudos to him! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      BSD users really must feel inferior and threatened indeed, with this constant whining and trying to piggyback on OSX. Read this very carefully. OSX is not FreeBSD. Read again until you get it. And in fact, even the parts of OSX that are derived from FreeBSD are practically NEVER seen by the user at all. Thus, trying to argue that any large amount of people are using OSX because of it's shared heritage with FreeBSD is highly disingenuous. People use OSX because it's OSX, not because some of the userland tools they never directly use anyway once were ported from FreeBSD. Good morning.

    14. Re:Kudos to him! by yurtinus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The take-away lesson from this discussion is that we need both types. Idealists like RMS push the boundaries and generally ensure we don't get stuck in any proprietary ruts. Pragmatics compromise with what is still a largely proprietary industry and try to get things to working right now. Some push and pull is healthy-- it means both types are doing their jobs. I'm big on free software, but it sure as hell means a lot to download an ISO and have it Just Work.

      The binary drivers are an excellent example as Parent noted-- the manufacturers aren't yet comfortable enough to release free and open drivers-- but at least we get something that works. If the idealists don't give up, someday we'll see a change of heart from the manufacturers.

      --
      +1 Disagree
  3. Re:We don't need another desktop OS. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Instead, how about focusing on being a workstation OS and a server OS?

    Ironically, Linux is a far better desktop OS than a Workstation OS. Microsoft is just too far ahead on making it easy to manage thousands of workstations with minimal setup.

  4. Not the issue.... by Darkness404 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The problem is, we have this odd expectation that any software, from a compiler, to a game, to an office suite to a browser should be instinctive by use of other software. That is, they think Word processor == Word. So when you take another word processor such as Open Office, they expect it to work -exactly- like Word. Any differences are seen as "faults". Take someone fully new to computers and have them learn Linux or Windows and chances are they will figure out Linux faster. Take someone who has used Windows all their life and give them Linux they complain because things aren't exactly the same.

    --
    Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    1. Re:Not the issue.... by jockeys · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Take someone fully new to computers and have them learn Linux or Windows and chances are they will figure out Linux faster.

      Citation needed.

      I'm not being a dick, I'm genuinely curious: has there been any study on this topic, beyond anecdotal posturing?

      --

      In Soviet Russia jokes are formulaic and decidedly non-humorous.
    2. Re:Not the issue.... by maccodemonkey · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Would you buy a car that didn't have a steering wheel? Sure, certain software vendors have set certain standards for software interfaces. But the user is king. It doesn't matter who trained the user what to expect, if the user expects something, you should tailor your software to their expectations. If you think it's the users job to learn your interface, the user is just going to keep using Windows because they don't want to spend time learning the Linux way of doing things. Respect your users time.

    3. Re:Not the issue.... by Itninja · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I would recommend looking up the concept called 'burden of proof'. It typically falls on the party making the assertions, not on the detractors. In other words, semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit.

      --
      I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
    4. Re:Not the issue.... by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Photoshop?

      GIMP takes even UI features that are common and standard across pretty much ALL GUI programs and puts them in unexpected places. It certainly looks like they do so in many cases not because it's better, but because it's different.

    5. Re:Not the issue.... by maccodemonkey · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But wouldn't most those drivers actually have been first time drivers? It would be one thing if Linux was trying to compete in a world where everyone is a new computer user. You're not wasting the users time when they have to learn how to use a computer from scratch anyway. But Linux exists in a world where they are trying to convert Linux users. If Ford came out with a car today with different pedal positions, do you think they'd get people driving Hondas or GM cars to buy their product? Any other user of any other car would get in the car, not know how to use it, and promptly spend their money on a car that they don't have to commit time to learning how to drive. Look at it this way. Whenever I look at an OSS product, I take the amount of time it would take me to learn that product, multiply that by my hourly income, and weigh that against a non-free product that I already know how to use. If the non-free product is cheaper based on how much my time costs, then I buy the non-free product.

  5. Inherrent charateristic of Open Source by Syncerus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Because so many developers develop Open Source applications for personal satisfaction, they tend to focus on scratching their own itches.

    A characteristic of usability testing is that your goal is to scratch the itch of your customers; your preferences have very little significance in the context of the test.

    It doesn't take a genius to see a potential conflict in the two goals; on the other hand, a developer likes to see his code in actual use by actual human beings. To maximize this use, a developer must at least pay lip service to documentation and UI testing.

    Many developers never make this conceptual leap, however.

    --
    "Man is nothing without the works of man" -- Helvetius
  6. Re:Pretty good idea by nomadic · · Score: 3, Insightful

    But, I'm afraid that these "experts" will be handpicked, for one set of characteristics or another.

    Hopefully it's for UI design ability.

  7. Re:We don't need another desktop OS. by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    It's not me. What is Linux's desktop usage percent, again? If I had a nickel for every Linux desktop user would I even be able to pay off my car loan?

  8. Re:To be so lucky... by Kell+Bengal · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is a good point - if software doesn't explain itself, then it is broken. I believe this holds all the way from the top level to the basics. If the architecture of the system isn't well signposted and comprehensible, it fails. If an icon meaning is murky and there are no tooltips, it fails. Now you always have to assume some basic level competence on the part of the user (eg. knowing to type man to get program info, or knowing how to click with a mouse) but once you're part that, there is no reason why programs can't be self-explanatory, or at the very least self-documenting. I don't know how many times I've torn my hair out because the 'Help' menu's only item was "About".

    --
    Scientists point out problems, engineers fix them
    altslashdot.org: The future of slashdot.
  9. Re:We DO need another desktop OS. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    M$ needs competition. Apple is not. It is really a whole product (hardware & software), like a TV or a DVD player.

    My biggest complaint about Linux on the desktop is the lack of a true universal UI (although it has improved much lately) and the difficulty in user software (a user should be able to run every application without tweaking text files) and ease of administration. When it achieves the same level or better of intuitiveness as Windows, then it can compete.

    Basically, when grandma can install and run her greeting card creating software without any help, you there).

  10. Re:STFU needs to be heard. by dstar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I would love for the Gnome developers to sit in on that session.

    And then be beaten with sledgehammers until they understand that the goal should not be 'unconfigurable' but 'no configuration needed 90% of the time, and configurable the remaining 10% of the time'.

  11. Re:The desktop is dying. by nomadic · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Desktop, workstation and server OS are obsolete ideas. In 20 years we probably won't even have these things or at least not worry about them. I can't say for certain what will replace the desktop, but I think it is going away in our lifetimes. Or perhaps we'll just have one platform that runs the same OS and same applications on our laptops, servers and phones.

    They've been predicting the death of the desktop and a return to centralized computing for 20 years.

  12. Re:Ubuntu not ready! by StayFrosty · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Windows has no touch screen support out of the box either. I do not understand why it is acceptable and expected to install all sorts of third party drivers on a Windows system, but as soon as you have to do it on any Linux distribution it's "Not ready for prime time." I'm guessing that people who make comments like this fall in to one of 3 catagories:
    1. Microsoft or Apple schills.
    2. Windows or Apple zealots who have never tried Linux themselves.
    3. People who are presented with a slightly different way of doing things and can't be bothered to learn since it's easier to spread FUD around.
    --
    "Frequently wrong, never in doubt."
  13. Re:We DO need another desktop OS. by InsaneProcessor · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A users are a large pool of people who aren't geeks, nerds, or slashdot readers. Your grandmother is a user, My wife is a user and she cannot install and run the software she wants in Linux because it is too difficult to install and tweak Wine and the software she wants isn't written for Linux. A real desktop OS has to be usable by a large base of users.

    --

    Athiesm is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.
  14. Re:Pretty good idea by node+3 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Your fears are unfounded. If they were valid, we wouldn't have GNOME & KDE & the hundreds of other desktop environments and window managers.

    In fact, this will make things even better. KDE will still be KDE, but it will be more usable. Same with GNOME. Some of the more esoteric systems will not change, because they aren't aimed at regular people.

    There is no single Linux OS that can be bettered/ruined by a single person. There are literally *hundreds* of Linux OSs. And even if there were just one single Linux OS, how can you argue *against* usability testing? If there's just one OS, and it goes through testing, it will almost certainly be made better, but if you *don't* test, it will still be the single Linux OS that everyone has to use, it just won't be as good.

  15. Re:We DO need another desktop OS. by Darkness404 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    My biggest complaint about Linux on the desktop is the lack of a true universal UI

    Not much of a problem though, for most people, Linux isn't Linux but a Linux distro, that is if you have Ubuntu, you get GNOME, if you have Kubuntu you get KDE. Similar to how you can either get Windows XP or Windows Vista/7 with different UIs.

    and the difficulty in user software (a user should be able to run every application without tweaking text files)

    Most user-level applications don't require you to tweak text files unless you need some obscure setting. A few "pro" level applications (as in, your going to be programming or know something about computers) use text files because they are easier to edit, debug and generally give support for a knowledgeable user.

    and ease of administration

    Compared to Windows, Linux administration is a breeze. A Linux system ran by a normal user who doesn't screw around as root, will remain stable. Simply going to a site can get you a virus in Windows. Because of this and the -large- amount of viruses on Windows, it is pretty much required to run a virus scan pretty often. With Linux, even if you are running a vulnerable everything, chances are you simply won't get a virus.

    Plus, with Windows update you never know what you are going to get, "features" constantly creep in (remember the search bar that was a "critical update"?) and large changes are considered updates. It takes a lot more work administrating a small amount of Windows boxes compared to Linux.

    When it achieves the same level or better of intuitiveness as Windows, then it can compete.

    Windows has not intuitiveness. The only reason why we think it has is because most people have been using it for 20 some odd years. A lot of the Windows conventions have been -proven- to be counter intuitive and plain confusing (anyone else wonder why Add/Remove programs is called that even though you really can't add in any programs from there). Windows is terribly unfriendly, we just have gotten used to it.

    --
    Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
  16. Re:STFU needs to be heard. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    And let's not forget about the GIMP devs.

  17. Accessibility != Scalability by PAPPP · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The idea that an interface can be entirely judged by how well a user handles it in the first few minutes of exposure is, in my opinion, one of the bigger *problems* with UI design of late. A quality interface should both be immediately accessible, and SCALE WELL TO MORE ADVANCED USE CASES. In my experience, Gnome, OS X, and the bundled native applications that come with each currently fail miserably at the latter. The former head of Apple's UI team makes a pretty good case for this being a problem here, although the article focuses specifically on a facet of the OS X design philosophy which causes scalability issues, rather than the problem in general. To borrow a line from the article: "The beginner today will be the expert of tomorrow. The user with 200 photos today will be the user with 2000 a year from now. The user with 10 songs today will be the user with 100 songs six months from now. The user with one or two extra apps on the iPhone will be the user with 100 apps three months from now."

  18. Re:We don't need another desktop OS. by jedidiah · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't give a sh*t about such metrics.

    I am more worried about the usefulness and usability of available applications.

    I am more worried about driver support and interesting driver features like Purevideo.

    I can fully exploit a HD-PVR on my MythTV server and have it stream to an ION box with full hardware acceleration for h264.

    Tell me again why I should care about your "world domination metrics"?

    --
    A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  19. Re:We DO need another desktop OS. by Runaway1956 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Windows has not intuitiveness. The only reason why we think it has is because most people have been using it for 20 some odd years."

    Exactly. Those old exclusivity agreements that MS insisted on are still paying off. People are used to MS, and anything different is "wrong".

    Not to mention - Dell, Compaq, and other OEMS basically did all of MS hardware compatibility for them. Linux is still struggling to make some hardware work that was "designed for Windows".

    Just a few years of unfair advantage can translate into decades of revenues.

    --
    "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
  20. Re:To be so lucky... by izomiac · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Personally, I'd consider intuitiveness and documentation to be entirely separate components of a program. For example, a lot of command line programs are well documented, but not very intuitive. IMHO, a program is broken if a user can't use it without reading documentation, assuming they're familiar with what they are trying to do. Documentation is for when intuitiveness fails, which may be an inevitability since people think somewhat differently, but this should be rare in well designed programs.

  21. Re:To be so lucky... by selven · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Speaking of "About", why is it that this option doesn't tell you anything about the program, but gives you some useless copyright information instead? Can't we call it "Copyright" or something like that?

  22. Re:To be so lucky... by Kelbear · · Score: 2, Insightful

    For linux distro to increase adoption rates, I would suggest that the usability threshold should be set at the level of the average /windows/ user.

    Because that's what the majority of the population is using, and they'll just switch right back to windows if they try Linux and can't accomplish what they already know how to accomplish in windows. If they're exploring Linux, the benefits will need to outweigh the drawback of researching how to get things done. Lowering the barriers to entry would help Linux adoption considerably. Some distros are better than others at doing this, but sooner or later they all force the user to look up obscure console command syntax so that they get things working.

  23. But if it can't do 100% of what I need by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It is 100% worthless.

    I have a job to do, it involves many facets. I need to be able to do all of them. It isn't an option to say "No I am not going to do this part of my job." Well, my Windows system does 100% of what I need. It runs all the different kinds of software I need to do the various parts of my job. Ok, great. Now if Linux doesn't, it is worthless. Why? Because there's no point in running a different OS, if I still have to have Windows. If Linux does 80% of what I need, and Windows does 100%, then I might as well always be booted in to Windows. Why would I boot to a different OS, if it can't do everything?

    Also, in terms of switching, it isn't good enough to say "You can do everything you need." It most certainly isn't worth a switch if you can do everything you need, but it is harder or more complicated to do. It isn't even good enough to say "You can do everything you need just as easy." Even if everything works as smooth as it does with what you currently have, it isn't worth switching because there's no advantage.

    To be worth switching, you have to show how things are going to be BETTER. You have to show that you can do 100% of your job, and that it'll be better. Otherwise, it really isn't worth it.

    I think that is part of the problem that often when people say "Well you can do what you need to do in Linux," they haven't really looked at what the person does. What the truth can be is "You can technically do what you need to do, but it'll be a whole lot of work, a good deal of retraining, and not nearly as smooth as what you have now."

    1. Re:But if it can't do 100% of what I need by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It is 100% worthless. ... blah blah blah...

      The plural of anecdote is not "data". I can legitimately claim exactly the same as you except with Linux and Windows switched.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    2. Re:But if it can't do 100% of what I need by Risen888 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I see what you did there. But I'll see it and raise.

      First, there's a lot of software I use on a daily basis that either isn't available for Windows at all or requires a bunch of dicking around to get running. Sure, I can do about 75% of the things I need, as long as I'm willing to accept subpar applications that do a shitty job of what I'm trying to accomplish. Windows is therefore 100% worthless.

      Second, if you can't name a dozen ways off the top of your head that the Linux desktop(s) are better than Windows, you've obviously never tried it and therefore have no place in this discussion.

      --
      Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
  24. Re:We don't need another desktop OS. by Bert64 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Except that desktops are generally poor target systems for hackers, they have slow connections (especially slow upstream bandwidth on most consumer level connections), and are frequently rebooted or turned off when not in use...

    Linux has a significant portion of the server market, especially when it comes to internet connected servers, and servers typically have a lot more bandwidth and are running 24/7, a lot of companies specialize in hosting dedicated or virtualized linux servers that are operated by clueless users through a web based gui and they never touch the shell and is thus extremely unlikely to notice what you're doing.

    There are plenty of people out there trying to target linux machines, people were owning unix machines on the internet long before windows even had a tcp stack, and hackers often prefer unix machines because of the more powerful cli based tools (imagine a gui tunneled through multiple machines in different countries because your trying to hide your tracks).

    --
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  25. Re:We DO need another desktop OS. by icannotthinkofaname · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You mean it's not a "real" desktop OS if most of the people using it are geeks? Are we not real people? Do we not count?

    Of course we don't count. We're the ones who don't believe in the fairies and the magic blue smoke that everyone else knows make computers run. Therefore, we are considered either (a) insane or (b) to have esoteric, gnostic knowledge available only to a chosen few, that is designed to be completely incomprehensible for anyone else.

    Or maybe people just can't get past the idea of users and developers being one and the same. It could be either possibility.

    Aside from this, my experience is that the "clueless" users can install software from the repositories as long as they are instructed in how to do so (just as they have to be instructed on how to install software in Windows or OS X), and they are certainly a lot less likely to end up completely screwing up the computer, leaving reinstall as the only recourse.

    I wholly agree. My aunt screwed up her Windows (XP) laptop quite badly, and she didn't want me to break copyright law for her sake (she didn't have a Windows installation CD). So, I went with the legal cost-free option instead. I spent an afternoon with her, having her watch me install Ubuntu, and then I showed her around the interface. She knew her web browser (Firefox), and I pointed her to OpenOffice and the repositories, so that she could do her office stuff and get new applications. She had two other questions after that. What antivirus/firewall did I recommend (my answer: you can't run Windows programs, anyway, so no worries), and something mouse-related (which my father was able to answer). I was able to help her with anything she needed as an end-user.

    I haven't heard anything since. More importantly, it doesn't look like she hates the different OS. I'm pleased with myself.

    --
    Let q be a radix > 1. I am in ur base-q, killing 10 d00ds.
  26. Re:We DO need another desktop OS. by DrLov3 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Let's compare shall we.
    Imagine your grandmother wishes to install something simple like Firefox :

    The windows way:
    ---
    1. Open IE.
    2.Type www.firefox.com(Avoid spyware bars*this is important*)
    3. Let's say her browser isin't Highjacked*this part is also important* and it brings you to the right page.
    4. Find and download the installer or binaries, not the source, for your operating system, whatever it is, she must know, and sometimes cpu, 32 bits, 64 bits, PowerPC ....etc .....
    5.Double click on "FirefoxInstallerWhereEverItIsWhatEverItsCalled.exe"
    6.Norton(or other) comes up saying : "running exe files likes this one can harm your computer" All she knows is her computer is farked up enough and does not want to damage it further, she might not install it.....


    The Linux way:
    ---
    1. Open Synaptic
    2.Do a search for Firefox in the properly identified search bar, no spyware bars here.
    3. Check the box next to Firefox.
    4. Press "Apply" : Synaptic automatically downloads and installs and sets the shortcut for for Firefox.


    P.S. : Learning about synaptic for user takes about the same time it takes to learn to search google for aps.

    So you tell me which way is easyer.

  27. Re:We DO need another desktop OS. by PC+and+Sony+Fanboy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Whatever. I had to explain disk images to a fucking Ivy League professor (a young one, not some doddering 80-year-old). People are fucking stupid. Especially Christians.

    Was that before or after he told you how much money he makes, how he gets a year off after 6 years of work, and the awesome retirement plan? Not to mention the fact that he's paid to do jack-all.

    I suppose I'd rather be uninformed (not stupid, as you imply) and on easy street, than whining about people like that on slashdot.

  28. Re:To be so lucky... by icebraining · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Designing is really a 2 way street, it needs to be done by the user just as much as it does have to be done by the developer, maybe even a little more so on the user."

    But in most small OSS projects the developer *is* the user, at least at design stage. Most developers don't write code to help the community, they write it because they enjoy doing it and/or need it done. Then, they help the community by release the source, when it's too late to make design decisions.

  29. Re:We DO need another desktop OS. by Hizonner · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So what?

    Look, your wife is well served by Windows. My father is well served by MacOS. Great. There are operating systems for them.

    I use desktop Linux. I've used desktop Linux since 1996. I use it because it's well suited to my needs, and I do not care who else does or does not use it. If it fits their needs, they can use it. If something else fits their needs, they can use that. As long as there are enough users to keep development going, why would I care about more people adopting Linux?

    In fact, changing Linux to make it appeal to your grandmother is just likely to make it less useful to me, because your grandmother and I have different needs. Which is why we just might need to use different operating systems.

    So long as the data on the wire are standard, the end node operating system doesn't matter. Use what works for you. Shuttleworth cares about market share because he's in it for a buck. What's in it for the rest of us?

  30. Re:We don't need another desktop OS. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Better....when it works.

    Useless when it can't provide basic functionality because the hardware isn't supported.
    Useless when it can't run the applications the user needs.

    This is the giant elephant in the room. It's like people are just choosing to ignore it. There is no Linux hardware section at BestBuy. There isn't even a Linux Hardware Store you can go to. I don't even know of a website that sells hardware that is 'certified' to be Linux ready.

    And it doesn't run the newest, coolest games. It doesn't run the AV software the college dorms require. It doesn't run the software that you need for your Stats 301 class. That super fancy TV remote control you purchased? Yeah - it's software you need to use to configure it....doesn't run in Linux. The cool mp3 player you bought with fancy auto-synch software...it doesn't work in Linux. (But yes, you can probably read and write .mp3 files to the drive yourself - woot). The setup disk that came with your router - doesn't work in Linux.

  31. Re:Ubuntu not ready! by StayFrosty · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You are correct in that there are people out there who think this way. It's funny though, I don't see these people complaining about Windows at all.

    If you are thinking of Macs here, it's important to note that anyone using an OS installed from the factory will only have to install drivers for hardware he or she added. Reinstalling OSX on a Mac is about like reinstalling Windows or Linux using a manufacturer's recovery disc. The end result is that the drivers are not installed by the user. On Linux and Mac systems many user-installed peripherals work out of the box, but sometimes you still need drivers. It is not practical to expect an OS to support every piece of hardware ever made out of the box--especially if the hardware was released after the OS.

    --
    "Frequently wrong, never in doubt."
  32. Re:I've participated in usability testing at MSFT by gilgongo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    And in the end we still didn't do enough of usability testing (IMO), but such is life in commercial software development - you work against an arbitrary schedule.

    Lemme let you in to a little MSFT secret here: what you witnessed was eyewash to make you feel better about your job.

    The people that matter at Microsoft know the truth: that when you have a monopoly, all that's needed is to make sure the software doesn't crash on the launch presentation and that it supports as much hardware as possible. Achieve that, and you have achieved your annual bonus because even if MS released a C# horse's butt, billions of corporate slaves would still buy it and sign up for the upgrades. MS don't care about usability, because they have no reason to.

    Remember that next time you open an attachment in Outlook, edit it, then try to work out where's it's been saved. Remember that when something you are writing in Word suddenly decides to turn into a bulleted list. Remember that when the format of the text you copy from one document is preserved in the target document and you have to do it again using "paste special." Above all, remember that these problems have been around in MS's products for over 20 years in some cases.

    --
    "And the meaning of words; when they cease to function; when will it start worrying you?"
  33. Re:Ein Penguin, Ein Distro, Ein Fuhrer! by PitaBred · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The point of Linux is not to compete with Microsoft and Apple. The point of Linux is to give the user power and choice. That's the entire reason it uses the GPL. If we lose that, we have nothing.

  34. another good user experience by jsled · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Go do volunteer basic computer literacy session for your local senior center. Don't try to convert them to linux or get them using Firefox or anything dumb like that. Just ask what their problems are, and how you can help. You will quickly understand how broken and unintuitive computer software is.

  35. Re:We DO need another desktop OS. by Overunderrated · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Compared to Windows, Linux administration is a breeze. A Linux system ran by a normal user who doesn't screw around as root, will remain stable.

    How exactly does one administer Linux *without* "screwing around as root"?

  36. Nice sentiments but... by lennier · · Score: 3, Insightful

    this is the same Mark Shuttleworth who removed update-notifier and then when hundreds of beta-testers said 'please put that back' on the infamous https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/update-notifier/+bug/332945 he personally said 'no, I'm not listening to you'.

    He said it politely:

    "I'm marking the bug wontfix on the basis that we are confident the behaviour as at 9.04 release is a good one. I wouldn't be surprised for the conversation to continue though I do ask that it continue in a good spirit. If significant data shows this to be a suboptimal choice in future, we will revisit the point, but for now the question is settled."

    but it was still a WONTFIX in the face of overwhelming public opinion to the contrary.

    I'll believe he listens to users when he actually listens to the users.

    --
    You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
    1. Re:Nice sentiments but... by PeanutButterBreath · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There is a difference between 'no, I'm not listening to you' and 'I hear what you are saying but for these reasons I am not implementing your request at this time.'

      What's your point, anyway? That his sentiment is nullified by one example of his own failure to live up to it? Or any number of failures to live up to it? That it is fun to play 'gotcha' on someone who is in the limelight? That it is fun to whine?

    2. Re:Nice sentiments but... by ZorbaTHut · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're confusing two very different things. "Pay attention to the user's behavior" and "listen to what the user asks for".

      The first is always valuable. Seeing what users do is just plain good. You should be doing that. You should absolutely be doing that.

      The second, however, is a frequent mistake. Users don't know what they want. They know what they want to do, and they either know they can't do it or they know how they used to be able to do it, but the ideas they come up with to fix that issue tend to range the gamut from "barely acceptable" to "horrible".

      Any change you make to an existing UI - *any change whatsoever* - will result in a storm of people calling for blood. No matter how good the idea is, no matter how good the change is, people will scream for it to be changed back. If you want to create a good UI, at some point you just have to ignore this. People yell for reversion, you tell them "no", and a few months down the line you find out if you made the right call or not.

      You might think he made the wrong decision here, but "listening to the users" has absolutely nothing to do with real user experience testing.

      --
      Breaking Into the Industry - A development log about starting a game studio.
    3. Re:Nice sentiments but... by Dhalka226 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The two really aren't the same thing, they only seem that way because you've erroneously over-simplified his position to "listen to the users."

      User experience testing is essentially about usability. If you put some dude who has never seen your software in front of it, can he use it to get his work done? Is there anything seriously impeding his ability to 1) learn or 2) use the software?

      What you're referencing is that something changed and people don't like the change. For starters, most people don't like change even if it is ultimately change for the better. More to the point though, it has nothing to do with learning or using a piece of software. They simply preferred one behavior to another for a set of reasons that may or may not address any of the reasons the change was ultimately made. A user below suggested that the previous situation (apparently, an icon in the dock for updates) was terribly ineffective but that the new system now achieves much higher update rates. In a situation like that, where some users are annoyed by a behavior but there is a demonstrable and measurable net positive to the change, reverting it is probably the wrong answer even if his motto was "listen to the users."

      For what it's worth, as somebody who has no vested interest in the change either way I think his response was perfectly reasonable.

      but it was still a WONTFIX in the face of overwhelming public opinion to the contrary.

      Was it overwhelming public opinion? Sorry if I'm wrong in my assumptions, but I smell some bias in your post. It seems to me like you were one of the ones who want the change reverted. There's nothing wrong with that, but combine selection bias with the general megaphone that negative reactions get compared to positive ones (far more people hop on to review something they hated than loved) and I don't know it's as clear-cut as you suggest. Plus, this is a bugtracker. For all the increased likelihood of bad comments to good in general, most people wouldn't even think to log onto a bug tracker if they liked or accepted the new behavior. And why should they?

      It's also worth mentioning that "listen to your users" wouldn't necessarily equate with "give your users everything they want" as well.

  37. Re:We DO need another desktop OS. by thejynxed · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You'll keep having that issue too, because hardware manufacturers are in general running into the ATI/nVidia issue: Their drivers contain patented, licensed, proprietary code - and not all of it owned by them. This is the main reason ATI drivers lag behind Intel or nVidia for *nix, and why nVidia only releases binary blobs.

    The controller code, shader code, etc can all possibly be originated from different corporations, that the manufacturer licensed the code from. I don't think too many people stop to think about this. They just whine about it being a binary blob, or the specs aren't fully open, or accompanied by working drivers and full source code.

    I look at it this way. You want full driver support in your operating system, you need to play along with established rules. Just like you expect them to honor the GPL, BSD, MIT or whatever license, OS developers need to honor and respect the contractual/licensing obligations the hardware manufacturers have as well.

    --
    @Mindless Drivel: 100% of Twitter posts ever Tweeted.
  38. Re:We DO need another desktop OS. by droopycom · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Windows has not intuitiveness"

    Erm, that's subjective, it depends on your intuition. I picked up using Windows far quicker and easier than other OSs, it instantly made a lot more sense to me (the more minimal interfaces of 95/98/2000/2003, not so much vista/7 which I find moves the rug beneith your feet too much). I find OSX the least intuitive of GUIs I've used (excluding some of the lesser known Unix/X interfaces).

    Well, your methodology to test your intuition is probably flawed. I dont think its possible to conclusively test what your intuition would be on one given person.

    Because, as soon as you start using a computer, you stop "intuiting" and start learning. And when you switch to another OS, you cant "intuit" right away, first you need to "unlearn" which is painful.

    If you first started on MacOS, then switched to windows, and found windows more intuitive, then your result is valid, otherwise your result is tainted and you cant say for sure if the fact that you found MacOS less intuitive is because its inherently less intuitive or because you were partly conditioned by using windows.

    For my own case, I would say there is nothing intuitive about any of them... you have to learn for all of them. Some might be easier to learn for an individual for some reasons that are specific to the individual or specific to the OS.

  39. Re:STFU needs to be heard. by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I want gnome-terminal not to eat my right-clicks. People have been asking for that for *years* and are constantly told that the Gnome developers know better than they do about what they need.

    Some people on /. are continually whinging about having too much choice. WTF? Choice is good. Try the venerable xterm instead.

    --
    SJW n. One who posts facts.
  40. Re:To be so lucky... by serviscope_minor · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Well exactly. Someone up there in the comments mentioned how Open Source Developers like to "Scratch their own itch" - which in my opinion is really the wrong way to tackle a problem.

    What the hell? I have a problem. I choose to fix it. I then offer my solution to the world at large, completely for free. Now you come along and tell me that I've solved my own problem wrong and should have somehow done it so it benefits you more.

    WTF?

    If you want me to work for you, then you have to pay me a lot of money. If you don't like the free itch-scratching stuff I give away, then ignore it ang go about your life as if it was never there.

    Talk about a sense of entitlement...

    --
    SJW n. One who posts facts.
  41. Re:Linux desktop is not dead. by Risen888 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "Jim! I'm on the Lynooks now, and I printed off 500 envelopes for the newsletter, but they're all rotated! I put the envelopes in this way, but they come out all wrong!"

    You seriously overestimate the ability of a standard plebe to adjust to any change.

    I have a bunch of clients that I've switched to Linux that would undoubtedly take great umbrage at this characterization. People aren't stupid by nature. But when you pound it into their heads that they are stupid, they'll internalize it. Most people have heard nothing but "computers are too complicated for you to understand," so that's what they believe. But it's bullshit. And it's usually being fed to them by bad people who are trying to pick their pockets. Which I guess is capitalism in action and probably won't change. But what I'm fucking sick of is this attitude coming from the geek community that "the proletariat just will never be as smart as us." It's obnoxious, it's offensive, and most of all it's fucking wrong. I bet you can't skydive. But if someone taught you you could.

    Humans are great at adapting, but only when forced.

    You might be on to something with this. Damn good thing for my business that Microsoft is great at forcing people's hands.

    --
    Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
  42. Re:STFU needs to be heard. by jc42 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I always get asked, "How did you get good with computers?" To which I reply, "I was just able to read."

    Well, the computer industry is slowly learning how to deal with people like you. More and more, they are implementing the "no documentation at all" standard. In the near future, it won't matter that you know how to read, because there will be no document anywhere for anything.

    Actually, for Microsoft and Apple stuff, they're pretty much there now. Most of their new stuff has no written documentation at all. Their one remaining problem is that there are online forums where people actually write about such things, and google can quickly find them for you. But MS and Apple are working on ways of confounding that approach.

    So soon you'll have no choice but to ask around to find out how to do something. If you do this via email or IM, your message will be hidden from others, so they won't be able to read the results.

    I just wasted a number of hours trying to help a friend figure out how to deal with an incomprehensible Vista error message that makes logins totally fail. There are several thousand questions about the specific message online, and it appears that several hundred people have managed to fix it. But so far, none of the discussions we've found actually say what they did to fix it. So we've apparently hit a brick wall, despite all the bandwidth taken up by discussions of this particular problem. This illustrates how the MS community is learning to hobble those who can read, and ensure that there is nothing useful online on the topic.

    Lessee; do I need a ;-) here?

    --
    Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
  43. Re:STFU needs to be heard. by Fallingcow · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But installing their favorite tools, is exactly what you would expect from more demanding users

    ... and it's exactly the reason I use Gnome over KDE. I dislike pretty much all of the K* apps--I like Firefox over Konqueror, Thunderbird or Evolution over Kmail, OpenOffice over Koffice (and if I must use something other than that, I'd take Gnumeric+Abiword over Koffice, too), etc.

    There've been times, though, that I've felt the same way about the default Gnome apps in my distro; I hate Totem, and I like that browser that occasionally gets pushed with Gnome (is it Epiphany? Galeon? One of those) even less than Konqueror. With Gnome, I just replace them and go about my business. KDE, on the other hand, seems to constantly scream "you're doing it wrong!" when you start replacing its K* apps with others. Maybe it's just me being weird about it, but it's what's kept me on Gnome over KDE (well, that and the fact that I think the KDE main menu is a huge, disorganized mess). The only app I can think of that Gnome really pushes is Nautilus, and even that can easily be sent to the background and replaced with something else. I don't know if it actually is more modular than KDE, but it certainly feels like it is.

  44. Get the basics right first by FreakyGreenLeaky · · Score: 2, Insightful

    /begin rant.

    Noble goals, etc, but for crying out load, get the basics right first. Hear me Mark, my cousin?

    This is probably all Gnome shortcomings, but still:
    Universal copy/paste between applications, like windows, for fuuuuck sakes (don't tell me to right-click select copy).
    Consistent window behaviour:
    - tabbing behaves differently in various windows.
    - hitting enter doesn't always select the default button.
    - ESC doesn't always cancel the window.

    Yes, yes, there are workarounds and the argument that one simply needs to adapt, etc, etc, to which I reply: fuck off. This is basic shit and there is well-established and expected GUI behaviour which windows folks take for granted. If the Linux "desk top" is ever going to /begin/ to make any kind of significant inroads into windowsland, THEN FIX THE BASIC SHIT for your target users.

    Then there's the bloody twitching abortion which is Linux printing: default printers mysteriously stop printing. Only workaround is to clone them (then it mysteriously works again). Another fuckup is print authentication: I've already entered the goddamn password - yet my print job is defered because it's decided to forget my password despite my having clicked "Remember my fucking password."

    What's up with this friggin crackling when streaming audio? huh? Change the stupid "driver" and it works for a day, then it crackles again. This is simple fucking shit which works flawlessly elsewhere.

    Now, don't get me wrong, girls, I love Linux. Have used it since 0.9.x - on servers. However, when it comes to recommending a desktop OS for friends/family, I insist they use windows since I don't have the energy to help them adjust to something which is unnecessarily obtuse and difficult to use.

    And please, spare me the knee-jerk fanb0i responses, or I'll bliksem you :D

    /end rant.