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Jack Thompson Sues Facebook For $40M

angry tapir writes "Jack Thompson has sued Facebook for US$40 million, saying that the social networking site harmed him by not removing angry postings made by Facebook gamers. The lawsuit was filed in the US District Court for the Southern District of Florida. Thompson is best known for bringing suit against Grand Theft Auto's Take Two Interactive, Sony Computer Entertainment America, and Wal-Mart, arguing that the game caused violent behavior."

89 of 421 comments (clear)

  1. He never seems to learn... by A.+Kim · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Wasn't this idiot disbarred a couple years ago? Could he really be so desperate to feed his narcissism?

    1. Re:He never seems to learn... by OrangeMonkey11 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Correct the Florida Supreme Court disbarred his ass

    2. Re:He never seems to learn... by thepotoo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Whether he was disbarred or not doesn't really seem to matter.

      Slashdot (and the gaming media in general) are doing a fantastic job feeding his narcissism just by reporting on every frivolous lawsuit. He's just a really skilled troll, and everyone always falls for him.

      (Of course, if we ignored him, he'd probably go away only to be replaced by an anti-gaming figurehead that wasn't batshit fucking insane, so maybe it's best for everyone to just keep him around for the amusement factor.)

      --
      Obligatory Soundbite Catchphrase
    3. Re:He never seems to learn... by sopssa · · Score: 2, Funny

      Now now everyone, watch your language or he will get Slashdot taken down too! You're underestimating this geniuses power. I, for one, think he's going to rule the world one day.

    4. Re:He never seems to learn... by hedwards · · Score: 5, Funny

      That's odd, but they left the stick in place?

    5. Re:He never seems to learn... by snspdaarf · · Score: 3, Funny

      That's odd, but they left the stick in place?

      Wouldn't you?

      --
      Why, without your clothes, you're naked, Miss Dudley!
    6. Re:He never seems to learn... by Narpak · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I find this lawsuit fairly amusing and hypocritical; since Thompson himself claimed First Amendment protection against his critics, and then when for good measure that the criticism of him violated state religious protection laws since he was motivated by his faith.

      Mister Thompson wasn't damaged by "angry postings made by Facebook gamers" he was damaged by all the stupid, unethical (and illegal) crap he did that spawned those posts. This is just a greedy lawyer who got himself disbarred through his own machinations trying to get himself a payout so he can finance his insidious campaign of ignorance and fear. Hope Facebook takes this to court and tear Mister Thompson a proverbial "new one".

    7. Re:He never seems to learn... by DBCubix · · Score: 3, Funny

      So instead of getting Slashdotted, Slashdot will get Jack Thompson'ed. Oh the irony.

      --
      I called it a mighty Sperm Whale, she called it Finding Nemo.
    8. Re:He never seems to learn... by need4mospd · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'd sell it on ebay

    9. Re:He never seems to learn... by dintech · · Score: 2, Funny

      Jack Thomson, what a knob. When are they going to put this guy out of our misery?

    10. Re:He never seems to learn... by gbarules2999 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Uh, oh, Jack Thompson will sue Slashdot for that comment.

    11. Re:He never seems to learn... by Torodung · · Score: 2, Funny

      Depends on how much I need a stick to beat him with, and how easy it is to snap it off. ;^P

      --
      Toro

    12. Re:He never seems to learn... by Weaselmancer · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The Florida Supreme Court already did. He's pretty harmless these days. All he can do now are "give me attention" tricks. Like this Facebook thing. Anyone with a half an ounce of sense knows it's not going anywhere. He's more like a Jack Thompson caricature these days.

      As for me, I think these little public humiliations he sets himself up for are endlessly entertaining. It's fascinating to know that this guy was a lawyer at one time when he obviously knows very very little about what's legal and what isn't.

      --
      Weaselmancer
      rediculous.
    13. Re:He never seems to learn... by Ant+P. · · Score: 2, Funny

      Only if I had a spare one to drive through his heart.

    14. Re:He never seems to learn... by nomadic · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think these little public humiliations he sets himself up for are endlessly entertaining. It's fascinating to know that this guy was a lawyer at one time when he obviously knows very very little about what's legal and what isn't.

      I've read some of his pleadings and filings, and I have got to say that as a (Florida licensed) lawyer I do not know how he ever had a legitimate career. He misuses legal terminology, he makes bizarre and insupportable legal arguments, and his writing skills are beyond weak.

  2. Mental illness is no laughing matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This man seriously needs some help from a professional.

    1. Re:Mental illness is no laughing matter by Custard+Horse · · Score: 5, Informative

      In the UK the courts can declare somebody a vexatious litigant which requires them to apply to the court for leave to make an application to the court. Is there something similar in the US?

      And for the inevitable posts that berate the UK and make reference to CCTV, libel law etc. etc., the list of vexatious litigants is quite small and made up of people entirely like Mr Thompson who are, "batshit fucking insane". I know because I had to deal with one of the people on the list - a full weight cock-jockey of the first order. That list of people could bring any country to its knees.

    2. Re:Mental illness is no laughing matter by Firethorn · · Score: 5, Interesting

      but get him off the streets before he costs someone else another million dollars to defend against his criminal actions.

      It's unfortunate, but filing harrasing lawsuits is one of the few crimes people in prison can commit on those outside of it.

      Personally, I think this shows just why Jack was disbarred - a blatant, persistent disregard for any laws that don't say what he wants them to say.

      In this case, while I'm not a lawyer, I know that angry letters can be submitted to a newspaper and published without consequence - they can be angry in tone as long as they don't pass into libel.

      A facebook page is just another point of distribution, with a lower cost of entry so the editorial controls are lowered. In some ways, it can even be considered self-publishing - at which point as long as you avoid libel/slander you're supposed to be protected under the 1st ammendment.

      Jack is a legally trained lawyer, even if he's been banned for malpractice. He should realize this.

      I've had an idea for types like this - at some point you award anybody they sue in an asshat way all their legal fees, lost wages, etc... Be generous. Until they're paid off they can't sue anybody else.

      The slight loss of justice for them* would be outweighed by the increase in justice for everybody else.

      *IE a construction company could 'accidentally' knock down their house, shrug and say *so sue me* and the asshat *couldn't*, not until he's paid all his court mandated settlements off.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    3. Re:Mental illness is no laughing matter by cthulu_mt · · Score: 5, Funny

      a full weight cock-jockey of the first order

      You people do such lovely things with the language. Oscar Wilde would be proud.

      --
      Virginia is for lovers. EVE is for griefers.
    4. Re:Mental illness is no laughing matter by pleappleappleap · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A couple hundred of us should sue him for equally frivolous, but distinct, causes. Let's see how he handles a couple hundred simultaneous lawsuits.

    5. Re:Mental illness is no laughing matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      I did a quick google search for one of the guys on the list, and found his profile one linkedin.

      Part of it read...
      Activities and Societies: I was senior prefect for whole college, Members of Football, Cricket and athletic teams,. Captained of Foot -ball team and set world record when I was playing a tornemant math in our city stadium, also I set world record in Cricket while playing for a local club in Surrey, UK, took eight wickets for zero runs in three overs including a hat-trick. Also I resuscitated an English boy who knocked down to death by a car.

      Loved the last line.

    6. Re:Mental illness is no laughing matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      In the UK the courts can declare somebody a vexatious litigant which requires them to apply to the court for leave to make an application to the court. Is there something similar in the US?

      There are a couple of things they can do to him for filing frivolous lawsuits. I don't remember all the specifics but the things that come to mind are
      a) Anytime he files a suit the judge can throw it out as frivolous and make him pay all the legal and court costs for the defendant
      b) Any courtroom he steps into the judge can simply hold him in contempt of court and fine him... judges can slap someone pretty damn hard for contempt. I don't have a link handy but I read a story about some guy who sat in jail for a decade because he refused to pay his fine after being found in contempt. Basically if you piss off the judge he can slam the gavel and say "you're hosed asshole, should've parked your mouth when I told you" and off you go.

      I think there is another kind of action that can be taken where the courts can bar someone from filing civil complaints due to abuse of the system but I'm not sure exactly how that works or if it falls under a) or b). not a lawyer...

      a full weight cock-jockey of the first order

      Couldn't have said it better myself.

    7. Re:Mental illness is no laughing matter by mcgrew · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Most of the mentally ill in the US have no insurance (because it's damned hard to get a job with clinical depression, bipolar disorder or schitzophrenia) and can't get professional help. Why would you give a monster like him the help a poor homeless schitzo can't?

      Besides, I don't think they have any effective treatments for sociopathy yet.

    8. Re:Mental illness is no laughing matter by idontgno · · Score: 2, Funny

      You have got to be some kind of crazy to say that.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
  3. Wasn't this tool suspended from the bar? by Nursie · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I know that doesn't stop him using other lawyers to sue people, but I would think it probably says a lot about the validity of said facebook postings if he *was* struck off for being a serial asshat.

  4. Sometimes, exclamaitions say it all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ARGH!

  5. Can't blame Facebook by Pedrito · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sorry Jack, but Facebook didn't make people hate you. You did that all on your own.

    What a tool!

    1. Re:Can't blame Facebook by techiemikey · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I agree completely with you that Facebook didn't make people hate him...his own actions did. Unfortunately Jack Thompson might (for once) have something on his side since he's complaining that Facebook didn't remove the hate groups against him (like the now removed "i'll pay someone $50 for a video of you punching Jack Thompson in the face" post) but removed a poll of "Should Obama be shot." I don't think it's unreasonable he found a lawyer to help him on this one.

    2. Re:Can't blame Facebook by Red+Cape · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Threats against the president's life are a serious criminal offense. Someone making a video game about punching a well known figure in the face repeatedly is perfectly legal.

    3. Re:Can't blame Facebook by Mattskimo · · Score: 2, Informative

      Facebook didn't remove the hate groups against him (like the now removed "i'll pay someone $50 for a video of you punching Jack Thompson in the face" post)

      The one example given in TFA has now been removed, either by the author or by Facebook. It is, however, a moot point as Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act of 1996 states: "No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider." Therefore Facebook have no real legal responsibility to do anything about it. Facebook would be down within days if it were forced to remove every possible defamatory comment one of its users posted.

    4. Re:Can't blame Facebook by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      The difference is that threatening the current (and perhaps past as well?) President of the US is a FEDERAL OFFENSE, and that poll could possibly be considered as a threat. I know it's weak, but those folks in the Secret Service take that stuff VERY seriously. They have to. It's their job, and honestly, they don't want to risk blowing off one "threat" because it "just looked like a harmless wacko" and then have shots fired at the president in line with what that "harmless wacko" said.

      I suspect that is why the Obama poll was removed quickly. There's a huge difference between a federal offense and potentially irritating a known irritant (Jack Thompson).

      Posted AC so Mr. Thompson doesn't try to sue me.

      The CAPTCHA is "synapse". I think Mr. Thompson needs a few more.

    5. Re:Can't blame Facebook by PitaBred · · Score: 2, Interesting

      When I was in high school, some dumbasses learned how to send email "anonymously" through like, hotmail or something like that. They sent a threatening letter to Socks. Yes, that Socks. The Clinton's cat. Secret Service showed up a couple days later to have a very long chat with them... I'm not sure of all the details, but I believe they weren't allowed to use computers at school for at least the rest of the year, and were very close to going to jail.

  6. Next week: by bcmm · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Jack Thompson Sues Everybody, For No Reason.

    Why is he still going? Don't they make him pay his opponent's costs when he loses? Shouldn't he be broke?

    --
    # cat /dev/mem | strings | grep -i llama
    Damn, my RAM is full of llamas.
    1. Re:Next week: by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 2, Informative

      Why is he still going? Don't they make him pay his opponent's costs when he loses? Shouldn't he be broke?

      No. You don't automatically pay your opponent's costs when you lose in the U.S. They can ask the judge to grant it, but it doesn't always happen.

    2. Re:Next week: by jimicus · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm not sure the US operates on a "loser (almost) always pays" system.

      The theory is that by not having such a system, it's harder for the big guy to steamroller the little guy by saying "You do realise if you carry on we will apply for costs, and our costs so far have been $X hundred thousand?".

      So instead what happens is they've got a fantastically complicated system whereby the big guy can keep going back to court until the little guy can no longer afford representation in court.

      Note: IANAL, nor am I a merkin.

    3. Re:Next week: by X3J11 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Note: IANAL, nor am I a merkin.

      You're not a pubic wig for women?

      There must be some subtle joke in there that I am completely missing...

    4. Re:Next week: by thisnamestoolong · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't think a "loser always pays" system is the best, but I think that the plaintiff should be heavily penalized if the lawsuit is determined to be frivolous by a jury of his/her peers. There is a big difference between filing a losing lawsuit, and using the court system as a personal vendetta machine. If it is found that any particular lawsuit was frivolous, the plaintiff should be obligated to repay the defendant any court costs incurred, any lost wages, and punitive damages (the amount to be determined by the judge) to repay the unfortunate defendant for their troubles.

      --
      To the haters: You can't win. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
  7. Opinions - People are entitled by realsilly · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I really hope this Lawsuit is thrown out, simply because people are entitle to their opinions of this guy and what he stands for. He seems to forget that he's on some sort of one man crusade to fight computer game industry, and puts himself out there ans is not ready to be scrutinized for what he believes in. These individuals are using the tools provided to them to voice their opinions. We still have that right to free speech. I have not read these posts, and nor do I want to, thus the beauty of the Net. Now that Mr. Thompson has advertised that these posts exists, he's drawing national attention to them and may find that more people agree with the angry posts rather than his points.

    I don't necessarily agree with vial and viscious things but people will do what people will do.

    --
    Life takes interesting turns, but the most interest is when you're off the beaten path.
  8. Might as well sue himself by FrostDust · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think Jack Thompson's caused more harm to "Jack Thomspon" than any other entity possibly could.

    1. Re:Might as well sue himself by bcmm · · Score: 4, Funny

      Jack Thompson is clearly part of the murderous conspiracy of video game manufacturers, paid to destroy Jack Thompson's reputation. Jack Thompson should sue Jack Thompson for a bajillion dollars.

      --
      # cat /dev/mem | strings | grep -i llama
      Damn, my RAM is full of llamas.
    2. Re:Might as well sue himself by selven · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I wouldn't be surprised if the video game companies are paying him to make the anti-video-game movement look (even more) like a bunch of fools.

  9. Get over it by lyinhart · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Angry comments by gamers on Facebook? Gamers, get over it. The man's just a litigious nut who hasn't got anything successfully banned in the United States. Saying bad stuff about him only gives him more ammo to criticize and sue companies with. Don't worry, Jack Thompson isn't going to get between you and Grand Theft Auto 19 or Halo X Spin-off.

    --
    Freedom is drinking a beer in the park when you're supposed to be at work.
  10. Forty million? by Max+Romantschuk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Living in a country where you can't sue people for amounts like forty million dollars for Facebook postings sounds, well, friggin ridiculous.

    I wonder how much just keeping the legal system running and churning through all these cases costs in tax dollars for a US citizen...

    --
    .: Max Romantschuk :: http://max.romantschuk.fi/
    1. Re:Forty million? by Leebert · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Living in a country where you can't sue people for amounts like forty million dollars for Facebook postings sounds, well, friggin ridiculous.

      It sounds ridiculous in America, too.

  11. he's right ! by Atreide · · Score: 2, Funny

    "Jack Thompson [said] that the social networking site harmed him by not removing angry postings made by Facebook gamers."

    "Jack Thompson [argued] that the game caused violent behavior."

    Seems to me these angry postings prooved his cause
    by showing game caused violent behavior.

    --
    The world belongs to those who get up early. - I'm far from being the king of Earth then :-(
    1. Re:he's right ! by Sj0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You have a different definition of violent than I do.

      "Oh, I know what I'll do! I'll beat the tar out of him! NO! Better! I'll post an angry message to his facebook page! Why, he'll be so upset he'll start to cry! That's way better than beating the tar out of him!"

      --
      It's been a long time.
  12. Jack Thompson should be disbarred. by Xpendable · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Jack Thompson should be disbarred. His lawsuits are nothing but frivelous and a waste of tax payer money. He must have blown all his money that he earned from his tv show and now needs to keep filing idiotic lawsuits in hte hopes to make money for his ridiculous lifestyle. This guy should be disbarred and then he should be exiled from our country.

    1. Re:Jack Thompson should be disbarred. by Jaysyn · · Score: 3, Informative

      He was disbarred in Florida & had his license to practice law removed in Alabama.  I'm not sure how those two things differ, but there you have it.

      http://kotaku.com/5054772/jack-thompson-disbarred

      http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/668/668351p1.html

      --
      There is a war going on for your mind.
  13. What can we do to help Jack? by OrangeTide · · Score: 2, Funny

    Our right to free speech is a serious burden for this man, what can we do to ease his suffering?

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
  14. The Difference between a Troll and a real Monster by djdavetrouble · · Score: 5, Insightful

    He's just a really skilled troll, and everyone always falls for him.

    I would have to disagree, a troll is aware of his/her trolling, it is intentional.
    Jack is like a troll, except for the fact that he is dead serious, and there is no "lol, trolled".
    He really would restrict your rights and regulate the hell out of video games and the
    rest of the online world that in his eyes is destroying the morals of America.

    --
    music lover since 1969
  15. Quick /. by immortalpob · · Score: 3, Funny

    Delete all these comments before Jack reads them or you are totally getting sued!

  16. Re:If I... by LordAndrewSama · · Score: 4, Funny

    Somebody should make a flash game of violently beating jack thompson and post that online. :D

  17. The man needs professional help by G3ckoG33k · · Score: 5, Informative

    From a fairly recent Court Order

    "Thompson may petition the Court, but may do so only through the assistance of counsel, whenever such counsel determines that the filing has merit and can be filed in good faith. However, Thompsons frivolous and abusive filings must immediately come to an end. Further, if Thompson submits a filing in violation of this order, he may be subjected to contempt proceedings or other appropriate sanctions. All other pending petitions, motions, and requests for relief filed by Thompson are hereby denied without prejudice."

    After reading that Court Order, I must say that this man needs professional help. No, I am not talking about legal help. The examples provided by the Court are very convincing.

    1. Re:The man needs professional help by Zaphod-AVA · · Score: 5, Funny

      Wow. I've always wondered what the legalese for SHUT THE FUCK UP! was.

  18. Re:The Difference between a Troll and a real Monst by foobsr · · Score: 3, Insightful

    most historians and anthropologists would agree that the "morals of America" haven't changed very much in 230+ years

    {{citation needed}}

    CC.

    --
    TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
  19. Re:The Difference between a Troll and a real Monst by Bakkster · · Score: 2, Informative

    He really would restrict your rights and regulate the hell out of video games and the rest of the online world that in his eyes is destroying the morals of America.

    But can he really believe that?

    Yes, he really does. It was rap music before it was video games, but he honestly believes they are destroying our moral framework.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Thompson_(attorney)

    --
    Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
  20. Re:The Difference between a Troll and a real Monst by Dotren · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yes, he really does. It was rap music before it was video games, but he honestly believes they are destroying our moral framework.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Thompson_(attorney)

    The truly ironic part is that people like him do far more damage to this country than any cultural phenomena they point their fingers at.

    Just imagine if he got his way.. how many of our rights would be trampled and how many would feel oppressed due to someone else's morality being forced upon them?

  21. Re:The Difference between a Troll and a real Monst by macshit · · Score: 5, Insightful

    He's just a really skilled troll, and everyone always falls for him.

    I would have to disagree, a troll is aware of his/her trolling, it is intentional. Jack is like a troll, except for the fact that he is dead serious, and there is no "lol, trolled".

    On usenet, the distinction is made between a "troll", and a "netkook"; their behavior is often strikingly similar, except that the former is doing it intentionally to incite reponses, whereas the latter actually believes what he's saying.

    Jack, I gather, is more of a kook than a troll...

    --
    We live, as we dream -- alone....
  22. Breaking news... by Chrisq · · Score: 4, Funny

    Breaking news... "Jack Thompson sues Slashdot and OrangeMonkey11 $40M for not removing angry postings about him".

    1. Re:Breaking news... by tuxgeek · · Score: 2, Funny

      OrangeMonkey might be on to something here
      We should all post something fun for Jack Thompson. For example:
      "Jack, may the fleas of 1000 camels infest your bunched undies"

      We all feel better, he doesn't know, everyone's happy ... except jack.
      He can't possibly sue all of us ... well, maybe he can try ... goodluckwiththat

      --
      "Suppose you were an idiot...and suppose you were a member of Congress...but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
    2. Re:Breaking news... by Chabil+Ha' · · Score: 3, Funny

      Would that be a reverse class action lawsuit?

      --
      We're all hypocrites. We all have hidden parts, it's the contrast between them that make us more a hypocrite than others
  23. One Word by DynaSoar · · Score: 2, Informative

    Barratry:

    "The act of persistently instigating lawsuits, often groundless ones."

    It's a crime. If anyone was seriously threatened by one of these, they could simply file charges. Facebook is already protected by the law per TFA, as Thompson should be well aware. Being aware and persisting makes it all the more likely he'd be convicted of this, and in each case receive greater fines and/or jail time.

    --
    "I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
  24. Re:The Difference between a Troll and a real Monst by dwiget001 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yeap, and before rap music, rock and roll destroyed our moral framework.

    And sometime before rock and roll, swing destroyed our moral framework.

    I am sensing a pattern here.

  25. Re:The Difference between a Troll and a real Monst by jeffasselin · · Score: 4, Funny

    This new rock throwing game is destroying our caveman morality! We must stop it and only allow the throwing of rocks in the time-honored ritual fashion of our tribe!

    --
    If he explores all forms and substances Straight homeward to their symbol-essences; He shall not die.
  26. Re:The Difference between a Troll and a real Monst by ShadowRangerRIT · · Score: 2, Funny

    Clearly all that felon blood makes them more susceptible to the violent, drug using influence of video games!

    It's a joke people, chill out.

    --
    $_ = "wftedskaebjgdpjgidbsmnjgcdwatb"; tr/a-z/oh, turtleneck Phrase Jar!/; print
  27. Re:The Difference between a Troll and a real Monst by s4m7 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'd say the Morals of America have greatly changed since it's founding.

    Yeah, I miss the old days of witch-burning, slavery, and industrial child labor, too. /p

    --
    This comment is fully compliant with RFC 527.
  28. Re:The Difference between a Troll and a real Monst by ShadowRangerRIT · · Score: 4, Interesting

    X (where X is a country more than two hundred years old) never had any morals. It was built on pillage and destruction of existing culture and then on slavery to bootstrap a new economy.

    Fixed that for you (both the semantics and the syntax). Every country on the planet was built by the "winners," who almost always displaced prior inhabitants. Virtually every country (less than a couple hundred years old anyway) featured slavery (or a closely related form of cheap labor extracted involuntarily) at some point. No, that doesn't make it right, but as Dr. King said "the arc of the moral universe is long but it bends towards justice." We aren't perfect, but at least we seem to be getting better.

    --
    $_ = "wftedskaebjgdpjgidbsmnjgcdwatb"; tr/a-z/oh, turtleneck Phrase Jar!/; print
  29. Re:The Difference between a Troll and a real Monst by jcr · · Score: 4, Informative

    a country founded by the Puritans

    Bullshit. One colony out of fifteen was founded by Puritans. Virginia was already doing quite well by the time those idiots landed in Massachusetts and damn near starved themselves to death with their idiotic collective farming scheme.

    This mythology of the Puritans "founding the country" is progressive-era propaganda.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
  30. You don't really believe that, do you? by Attack+DAWWG · · Score: 5, Insightful

    to a country that bans prayer in school.

    Prayer is not banned in school. Kids can pray all they want. Government-forced prayer is banned in school. For some reason that gets conservatives so mad you would think they were about to bust an artery.

    1. Re:You don't really believe that, do you? by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Your link and post have a highly biased slant on this issue. Calling another poster ignorant of the subject when making misleading statements yourself is hypocritical.

      Here is a more factual description of those events.

    2. Re:You don't really believe that, do you? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You should read more. Like, perhaps, the article you linked to.

      The criminal charges, of which they were acquitted, were for contempt of a court order, not for blessing the meal. They were at a luncheon (not a dinner) on school property and had obviously done it in the past since a court had told them they couldn't do it anymore. And yet they did it anyway. And someone had to have complained on both occasions or the ACLU would have never known about it. That's hardly the situation you described.

      Also, if you read more, you'd know the difference between the pledge of allegiance and the pledge of elegance. I'm not sure I've ever heard of the pledge of elegance, but it sounds like it would be making students pledge to wear ball gowns and tuxedos to school which seems like a stupid idea. I'd also venture that we'd be doing away with the pledge of allegiance regardless of it's references to God. Blind allegiance to the state is the stuff of fascist and communist governments, not supposedly free countries like the US. Students shouldn't feel forced to support their country any more than they should feel forced to believe in a religion.

      And Christians are so quick to believe that Christmas is such an innocuous subject and yet would be up in arms if the school play or carols dealt with another religion. They don't want to see a school play depicting the miracle of the lamp oil that should have lasted only 1 night but lasted 8 nights (the basis for Chanukah) and they don't want their kids learning songs about dradles. Why should students and parents from other religions be forced to see plays and sing songs about Christmas when they're not allowed to see plays and sing songs about their own religion?

      There's a good reason why the rules about separation of church and state are in place. Without them, state officials who are religious can and would use their authority to push their religion onto others. Christians don't get the benefit of the doubt for the same reason that Microsoft doesn't get the benefit of the doubt...they have a long history that indicates exactly what they'd do if not controlled. And laws cannot be applied selectively or there would be chaos. So we have to balance the occasions where something that seems innocuous isn't allowed against the occasions where something oppressive is allowed when creating laws.

      What is fucking ridiculous is that we have to keep fighting this battle with Christians over and over again since they can't seem to practice their religion on their own time and in their own homes and facilities. If you want religion in schools, go to a non-secular private school.

    3. Re:You don't really believe that, do you? by Schadrach · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Posting my thoughts on this and the post above it here:

      For the Obama song thing, that was probably across the line, unless it was an entirely optional student pushed thing, with no faculty or staff involvement aside from offering resources like the camera. Given the age of the kids (which makes that seem unlikely), I'm hoping there are some lawsuits over it.

      As for "flagpole days", so long as it's clear that any faculty or staff involved are not acting on behalf of the school (as in teachers involved in the event do not wield authority derived from the school during the event, as they are not acting as an agent of the school), and the resources used (in this case the space and time-of-day, pretty much) are not something that is inaccessible to student use outside of having a "christian prayer day", I don't see a problem. Now, when some students from another faith or another student organization of some kind ask to use the space during the same time-of-day for the following day (as in placing the same overall concerns for the school -- students gathering in location X outside of class at time Y performing an activity that is not in and of itself illegal) for some other activity (including any other type of religious service) are prevented from doing so for any reason that can't be justified as a safety or legality concern, then we have a problem. (So when the Muslims want the spot next week, Hindu the week after that, Wiccans the week after that, Satanists the week after that, Vodoun the week after that, and so on and so on...)

      Frankly, any time any kind of government institution gives way to permitting any kind of religious "thing", it should have to give likewise to any other religious "thing" of the same general class resource-wise. Either that or refuse every group as a matter of policy.

      Note that one of my big conditionals there is that noone wielding power as an agent of the school (which is itself an agent of the state) is taking part. If a teacher is present and retains his/her authority for the event (as opposed to being simply a participant wielding no school/state granted authority over the students), then it's become a prayer led by an agent of the school (and thus state), which crosses the line.

      As for the Pledge, remove the reference to God. To be honest, I favor a complete reversion to the original Pledge to it's original text, before it was officially changed 4(going from memory, is that count right?) times. "I Pledge Allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all.", as it was originally penned by Francis Bellamy.

  31. Re:The Difference between a Troll and a real Monst by tsm_sf · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yes, he's wrong.

    We've gotten better. Just remember that every time someone trots out a "founding fathers woulda" comment.

    --
    Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.
  32. Re:The Difference between a Troll and a real Monst by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I can't say he keeps me up at night.

    There have been many such people in power over the years, and there appears to be no lasting damage.

    It's pretty hard for these extremists to slip past public opinion, and even when the public is with them, it typically doesn't last for long.

    --
    You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
  33. Re:The Difference between a Troll and a real Monst by stonewallred · · Score: 4, Funny

    And I fail to see which of these should be considered bad. Maybe the wearing the hats in public?

  34. Re:The Difference between a Troll and a real Monst by CubeRootOf · · Score: 3, Informative

    First off... 15 colonies? only 13 founded our country. what are the other two you are talking of?

    Secondly, it was far more than one colony that was founded by 'Puritans',

    Massachusetts, Puritans
    Rhode Island, Religious folks fleeing from Puritans
    Pennsylvania, Quakers
    New Jersey 'New Lighters'
    Maryland Catholics
    Virgina Anglicans

    6 of 13 colonies are founded out of religious beginnings, and New York city had/has such a high concentration of jewish folk since it was New Amsterdam

    6 1/2 out of 13 isn't exactly propaganda. Its half the story.

     

  35. Re:The question is by stonewallred · · Score: 2, Funny

    I would caution you about references to the Bush II era VP. The others are fine, and I agree with them, but Cheney is like Dracula/Chuckie/Freddie and Jason combined, except with all the nice parts removed and extra evil installed. You'd would not be sued by him, but he might eat your still quivering heart while playing cat's cradle with your entrails.

  36. Re:The Difference between a Troll and a real Monst by sumdumass · · Score: 4, Informative

    Why, there were quite a few founding fathers that didn't want slavery. In fact, it seems that the original drafts of the constitution banned slavery and had to be changed in order to get a few of the southern states on board. They compromised by placing the ability to ban imports of slaves and to tax their possession and make slave ownership and sales impractical in the future.

    The act of slavery is irrelevant to someone pulling out a founding fathers argument. It's like Criticizing Obama's health care plan or foreign policy because he never rode a Farris Wheel.

  37. Re:The Difference between a Troll and a real Monst by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This mythology of the Puritans "founding the country" is progressive-era propaganda.

    Don't you mean socially-and-religiously-conservative-era propaganda?

    --
    Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
  38. Re:The Difference between a Troll and a real Monst by chebucto · · Score: 2, Informative

    First off... 15 colonies? only 13 founded our country. what are the other two you are talking of?

    Nova Scotia and Newfoundland? Neither were part of the 13 Colonies (obviously), but both were early British colonies. IIRC, there were attempts early in the Revolutionary War to agitate Nova Scotia (which then bordered with Maine) against the crown, but the mostly military and loyalist population of the colony shrugged them off.

    --
    The English word fart is one of the oldest words in the English vocabulary.
  39. Re:The Difference between a Troll and a real Monst by ShakaUVM · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Indeed. And Pennsylvania was sort of the anti-Massachusetts. It's always annoying when people categorize the early America experience based solely on the one colony.

    However, most of the colonies were in the opposite camp of Pennsylvania on most issues, such as religious freedom, relations with Indians, and self-government.

  40. Re:The Difference between a Troll and a real Monst by bluemonq · · Score: 3, Informative

    False. A considerable number of them were Deists, meaning that they accepted a supreme being - God, Allah, FSM, what have you - but not organized religion.

  41. Re:The Difference between a Troll and a real Monst by fyoder · · Score: 2, Informative

    And sometime before rock and roll, swing destroyed our moral framework.

    It's the fault of the church. The original corrupting influence was theatre, and the church knew this, but none the less allowed plays providing they were on religious themes, but before you know it you've got Shakespeare writing about all kinds of crazy secular shit, and eventually theatres allowed in the city, and the final nail in the coffin of morality, allowing female roles to be played by actually female actors. Everything after that in the collapse of morality is postscript.

    --
    Loose lips lose spit.
  42. Re:The Difference between a Troll and a real Monst by Random+BedHead+Ed · · Score: 2, Funny

    No, it's the removing of the hats that really irks people. Indoors or outdoors, it's clearly immoral.

  43. Reminds me of something by KingAlanI · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Back from July 2008, I think this was-

    Summer-camp chaplain: This country was founded by men who were reverent...
    Me: It was also founded by Virginia tobacco speculators!

    *Those* guys certainly don't fall under the category 'reverent', unless you count the Almighty Dollar, er, Almighty Pound Sterling.

    --
    I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
  44. Re:The Difference between a Troll and a real Monst by ucblockhead · · Score: 2, Informative

    Just a nitpick: Rhode Island and Connecticut were both founded by Puritans who disagreed with the Massachusetts founders and left.

    --
    The cake is a pie
  45. Re:The Difference between a Troll and a real Monst by sumdumass · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It was a value decision. Or should I say valuable decision. Without it, the US wouldn't have come together and history as we know it would have been completely different with perhaps slavery existing in it to this day. Values such as the freedom of speech that allowed abolitionist to convince people on the ending of slavery wouldn't have existed as the newly formed states may not have ever pact together or if they did, the union would have been much weaker.

    Most of the rest of the modern world had outlawed slavery in their main countries with their insular possessions coming soon after about the same as the US walked into the civil war. Even while England had banned slavery by the 1700's, it was allowed in their colonies like India and places in Africa. Africa still has parts that allow slavery to this day.

  46. Re:The Difference between a Troll and a real Monst by timeOday · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yeap, and before rap music, rock and roll destroyed our moral framework. And sometime before rock and roll, swing destroyed our moral framework.

    Well, the common moral framework has been destroyed and re-created over that period of time, more than once in some cases. Look at how we feel about "bastards" (born out of wedlock), or the "N-word" (which used to be part of childrens' rhymes). Look at the content of tv (now radio/internet) programming, it's totally different. Objectively, I do think it is fair to say that much of the old moral framework was destroyed (as new frameworks evolved), and that popular media, definitely including music, played a huge role in changing the norms. So, if you are a conservative, meaning "conserve," meaning you generally like to keep things the way they are in this place at this point in time, by that standard terms like "moral decay" or "decline" make perfect sense, and blaming the media for ushering change makes sense, too.

  47. Re:The Difference between a Troll and a real Monst by bennomatic · · Score: 4, Informative

    He's just a really skilled troll, and everyone always falls for him.

    I would have to disagree, a troll is aware of his/her trolling, it is intentional. Jack is like a troll, except for the fact that he is dead serious, and there is no "lol, trolled".

    On usenet, the distinction is made between a "troll", and a "netkook"; their behavior is often strikingly similar, except that the former is doing it intentionally to incite reponses, whereas the latter actually believes what he's saying.

    Jack, I gather, is more of a kook than a troll...

    Right. People think of the term "troll" as referring to some sort of monster, like the ones beneath the bridge in the story about the billy goats. But "trolling" is actually an old word for fishing by dragging a line with a baited hook or hooks behind a slow-moving boat. You can see how the older definition applies...

    --
    The CB App. What's your 20?