Avatars To Have Business Dress Codes By 2013

nk497 writes "With businesses increasingly using digital tech like virtual worlds and Twitter, their staff will have to be given guidelines on how they 'dress' their avatars, according to analysts. 'As the use of virtual environments for business purposes grows, enterprises need to understand how employees are using avatars in ways that might affect the enterprise or the enterprise's reputation,' said James Lundy, managing vice president at Gartner, in a statement. 'We advise establishing codes of behavior that apply in any circumstance when an employee is acting as a company representative, whether in a real or virtual environment.'"

Comments

What about ethnicity codes?

[Redfearn]

*Dress* codes for avatars? Keepin' it socially acceptable? Let's go one step further, folks. Let's have our avatars be a friggin' socially acceptable *ethnicity* while you're at it. I mean, if your boss is dictatin' things, that is. Just be a zombie clone Geek Squad member!

Re:What about ethnicity codes?

[dgatwood]

My avatar is a grey squirrel, you insensitive clod.

Re:What about ethnicity codes?

[stefwolf]

Furry much?

Re:What about ethnicity codes?

[X0563511]

Probably context.

Re:What about ethnicity codes?

[CarpetShark]

My avatar is a grey squirrel, you insensitive clod.

ASL?

Re:What about ethnicity codes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not met many Africans, have you?

Re:What about ethnicity codes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Want to bet?

Re:What about ethnicity codes?

[meringuoid]

My avatar's dress code is dark suit, brown skin, big black afro.

It's pretty much standard issue for a pool attendant.

Re:What about ethnicity codes?

[cayenne8]

I'm wondering what these jobs are at what companies, that have SO much time to play around on virtual worlds and twitter.....rather than work?

Re:What about ethnicity codes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Different AC, but I've met several and they've all been really nice, polite individuals with great attitudes. Even (maybe especially) the ones who used to be child soldiers in a warlord's private army.

Re:What about ethnicity codes?

[dgatwood]

Not sure about age or sex, but its location was along highway 1 somewhere south of Monterey, CA.

Resigning Issue...

[CowboyBob500]

I'd resign if anyone tried to tell me what to wear in the real world, never mind the virtual. I've never worked at a company with a dress code and I never will. Not because I have an aversion to looking smart, but because that kind of control is normally just the tip of the iceberg.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[rubies]

This is why you should use social networking services with a pseudonym - otherwise the company thinks you're on their clock, all the time.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Telephone Sanitizer]

I have the feeling that if you showed up in a Speedo and refused to put on pants, you wouldn't have to resign.

They'd cut you loose pretty quickly.

'Point is, you conform to a dress code even if you don't know it. The only way around it is to work out of your home... with the drapes closed. (Please.)

Re:Resigning Issue...

[girlintraining]

I'd resign if anyone tried to tell me what to wear in the real world, never mind the virtual. I've never worked at a company with a dress code and I never will. Not because I have an aversion to looking smart, but because that kind of control is normally just the tip of the iceberg.

The golden rule: Those who have the gold, make the rules.

There's nothing in that where it says the rules have to make sense. Often, they don't. But the majority of jobs out there want it. You can skirt around it, but it'll cost you opportunities you'd otherwise have if you'd just get with the program. No, what you wear has no bearing on what's between your ears. Yet, curiously, it does have a bearing on the size of your paycheck.

It's like this: I could choose to dress in a provocative manner, but I'd be attracting a kind of attention I don't want. Likewise, how you dress says something about you as well. What message do you want to convey? Contrary to popular geek belief, clothes do more than just cover your body.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[CodeBuster]

I once thought as you do now, especially when I was still in my twenties. However, two things occurred to me eventually which caused me to change my mind. First, unless you are Steve Jobs or Mark Zuckerberg (i.e. you have founded the company) then wearing t-shirts and jeans will never get you into the executive suite. You will find that your income runs into a glass ceiling if you choose jeans and t-shirts because you are too intelligent to be caught wearing a suit. Second, as one gets older it becomes harder and harder to pretend that one is still under age thirty and wearing the clothes of the twenty something crowd begins to look ever more ridiculous. For the more inept among us, Nordstrom recently published a fairly decent basic field guide to men's style which covers good wardrobe choices for everything from casual to formal wear. Slashed jeans, worn t-shirt, and body piercing works for the baristas at Starbucks or the employees at your local book chain store, but for the rest of us knowing what to wear and what NOT to wear can be important. Why put yourself at a disadvantage, even if you are very intelligent, by wearing the wrong clothing?

Re:Resigning Issue...

[mikael_j]

I actually have a habit of wearing clothes that get me dirty looks from people who see me on the street (my dreadlocks probably don't help this (and most people who look at me like I'm worthless scum are the typical "gray suit and tie" Volvo drivers)) and I wear the same clothes to work. But yeah, a speedo may be a hard sell in an office environment.

That said, unless the job requires special clothing (either for identification purposes such as with police officers or firemen or for safety or hygiene reasons) I see no reason for people not to wear whatever they feel like but then I tend to cringe when I enter a store and notice all the employees wearing identical clothing...

/Mikael

Re:Resigning Issue...

[zwei2stein]

... that kind of control is normally just the tip of the iceberg.

Yeah, I heard they even dare to dictate you what you are going to do eight hours a day, five days a week. The horror!

Really, if dress code is what makes you quit, it is win/win for both sides. Company lost troublemaker and "pointless issues" guy and did not have to fire him and pay severance. "Epic win" :-)

Re:Resigning Issue...

[foobsr]

Point is, you conform to a dress code even if you don't know it.

And, even worse, people won't learn that. You even conform if you are not working, and it is really hard to evade that. Example:

"The Mothers Of Invention : The Little House I Used To Live In
Lyrics
FZ: Thank you, good night . . . Thank you, if you'll . . . if you sit down and be quiet, we'll make an attempt to, ah, perform Brown Shoes Don't Make It.
Man In Uniform: Back on your seats, come on, we'll help you back to your seats, come on . . .
Guy In The Audience: Take that man out of here! Oh! Go away! Take that uniform off man! Take that bloody uniform before it's fuckin' too late, man!
FZ: Everybody in this room is wearing a uniform, and don't kid yourself.
Guy In The Audience: . . . man!
FZ: You'll hurt your throat, stop it!"

About 4 decades ago.

CC.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[AuMatar]

You're assuming someone wants to get into the executive suite. Personally, I can't think of anything less attractive. The odds of it are low, you have to work hard for years, you have to put up with politics for years to do it, and lets face it the most sure way to get there are to throw all your morals out the window and backstab your way there. On top of that all those years you're doing shit that just isn't fun. No thanks. Give me career options of that or dropping out and flipping burgers, I'll take burgers.

As for aging and whether people think you look funny- why the hell do you care what other people think? If you enjoy it, fuck everyone else.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[BrokenHalo]

...dirty looks from people who see me on the street (my dreadlocks probably don't help this...

Fair enough. I work in the dairy food industry, and our hygiene policy has a total ban on the use of scotch-brite pads, because no matter how much you wash and rinse them with industrial bleach, they continue to harbour large colonies of bacteria. Since you can't subject your head to that kind of agressive cleansing, one can only imagine what kind of wildlife will be festering in your dreadlocks. There is just no way you can convince me those damn things are clean.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Anonymous Coward]

And if you're a doctor, your avatar must be in a white coat.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[CxDoo]

Man, it seems to me that your inflexibility to make a compromise on a minor issue (dress code) while pursuing a greater goal (career, paycheck) is just the tip of the iceberg...

Re:Resigning Issue...

[TheLink]

> I tend to cringe when I enter a store and notice all the employees wearing identical clothing...

Why? It's for one of the reasons you stated. Identification purposes.

It makes it easier for you to find them when you want to, or avoid them if you don't.

Similarly in a restaurant, proper uniforms reduce the odds of you trying to get other customers to fetch you a menu. Or vice versa.

That said, I find ties uncomfortable and a rather stupid idea in warm environments/climates.

I'd be glad if someone can come up with a fashion that looks decently "business like", is practical and doesn't involve ties and zillions of buttons.

Probably easier for menswear. Women's wear tend to have somewhat insane stuff like jacket/coat "pockets" that aren't pockets, or real pockets that are actually sewn shut.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[k8to]

They're clean.
They're just not sterile.

And they are probably inappropriate in your industry.
But that doesn't make them unsanitary.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[TheLink]

> why the hell do you care what other people think? If you enjoy it, fuck everyone else.

That's what the rapists and CxOs said.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Walkingshark]

Well, the way I see it, if a jewish person has a constitutional right to wear one of those hats to work, and muslim women have a right to their hijab, then I have a right to not wear a tie. Discrimination extends to "creed," which is a pretty open term.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[TheLink]

Oops I meant that's what they do, they don't often say it...

You may be closer to the "executive suite" and suits than you think ;).

Re:Resigning Issue...

[node 3]

'Point is, you conform to a dress code even if you don't know it. The only way around it is to work out of your home... with the drapes closed. (Please.)

Not really. A "dress code" is a *code*. It has to be codified in some sense. Being fired for being "indecent" isn't really a dress code.

Even if it were codified that you couldn't be indecent, it's still below the threshold most people would have for calling something a dress code. The general distinction here is probably something like, "you have to wear clothes a normal person wouldn't generally chose to wear, or face disciplinary action", or inversely, "there are perfectly socially acceptable clothes that you *can't* wear to work". In either case, I'm sure there are exceptions, but such exceptions don't change the overall dynamic here.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[interkin3tic]

Fair enough. I work in the dairy food industry, and our hygiene policy has a total ban on the use of scotch-brite pads, because no matter how much you wash and rinse them with industrial bleach, they continue to harbour large colonies of bacteria.

I think bleaching them would kill most of the bacteria in the pad, it just wouldn't remove the food so new bacteria could repopulate the pad in a short time.

Since you can't subject your head to that kind of agressive cleansing, one can only imagine what kind of wildlife will be festering in your dreadlocks. There is just no way you can convince me those damn things are clean.

You rinse YOUR hair with industrial bleach? No matter what type of hairdo you have, or how you clean it, your head is coated in bacteria. The only thing it should take to convince you that dreadlocks are "clean" are 1: is the wearer's head infected and 2: do the locks smell. If not, they're within normal parameters of hair cleanliness.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[kklein]

Good luck moving up in your company, then (unless you're in design or something).

Looking the part is an important part of playing the part. I'm sorry, but it's true. The higher you go, the more likely it will be that you will need to represent the company at some time, and your appearance may not present an image that is good for the company.

Take your appearance, as you've described yourself here, for example. You would have to knock my socks on their asses before I bought anything from you. Why? Because I have a very negative reaction to dreadlocks. I think they're disgusting. And if you're not black, those are best not described as dreadlocks, but "matted, filthy, homeless hair." You might be the nicest guy in the world. I might want to hang out with you (you'd endure endless shit for the dreadlocks, though), but I don't want to have anything to do with your company because I don't know of any good companies that would let you out of the basement, let alone hire you. It reflects poorly on the company.

I don't want you to think I'm just coming down on you like "the Man," man. This is, in fact, all new to me. I'm 35 now, but I was a goth until I was about 29. I wasn't dirty (very few goths are); I dressed well (just all black), and I'm a pretty smart cookie. But it just seemed like I couldn't make anything happen. No one would hire me for anything worthwhile, despite my solid academic record and recommendations from previous employers. I blamed all sorts of things--the economy (okay, that had a hand in it), stupid HR people (is there any other kind?), the time I got diarrhea from eating the expired food in my fridge (all I had left) during the interview--but once the (tasteful--not tribal) earrings were removed, hair was returned to natural brown, and I threw some more colors into my wardrobe, things picked up almost immediately.

I'm not saying that appearance is really a good indication of your abilities. It isn't; we all know that. What I'm saying is that it's like proper spelling: We value it not for what it is, but what it implies: This person gives a shit. This person has gone through some of the same shaping experiences as I have, and which I have found to be important in my own life.

So, to be honest, as a former adherent to the "looks don't matter, man; it's all about self-expression, man" school of thought, I'm probably more likely to write you off as a petulant child, because I sure as hell was one myself when I thought I was too good to put on a pair of slacks and a dress shirt.

No one likes wearing business wear. You're not special because you want to look like a freak. Everyone wants that. But they don't so as to create a more coherent social community with tribal markings that facilitate a feeling of belonging and fraternity. It's not about the suppression of savage customs; it's about being polite to one another and making people feel at ease.

It would be no different if the business community standardized on strap-on dildos and horse-tail butt-plugs. We'd still wear them to create a community. (Un?)Fortunately, business attire has not taken such a fashion direction, so it's slacks and collared shirts for all.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[mikael_j]

Why? It's for one of the reasons you stated. Identification purposes.

True, it's definitely an advantage to be able to tell store employees apart from customers. I suppose I should have clarified that I was talking more about those places where everyone wears identical shirts, shoes, pants and possibly hats as well as name tags with the company logo. This just seems a bit excessive to me, at least when dealing with stores that may only have three or four employees working at one time, IMHO they should be able to work with "shirt in this color and always wear your name tag", if anything it makes the employees seem less like robots and is less likely to make the employer come off as a giant corporation that demands total conformity.

Not to mention stores that disallow all piercings and tattoos that could possibly be visible in any way, this may reflect what the general public felt about piercings and tattoos decades ago but these days you'd think people (including those dreaming up corporate dress codes) would be a bit more accustomed to seeing the occasional tattoo or piercing (no, I don't have any tattoos or piercings myself).

/Mikael

Re:Resigning Issue...

[bickerdyke]

That said, I find ties uncomfortable and a rather stupid idea in warm environments/climates.

Engineers should even consider them as death hazards!

I don't think it's to unusual in that field to rapidly switch between office work or a meeting with customers, where a tie might be appropriate, and five minutes later standing next to some f**ing big machine trying to strange you with your own tie.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[unitron]

The chances of a (potential) customer being put off by someone *not* having piercings or tattoos are much less than of them being put off by someone who does, so the employee without them is going to be acceptable to a much larger set of (potential) customers.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[bickerdyke]

You're right.

I guess thats why so often upper managment makes terrible, right out stupid management decissions - besides when it's about what "clothes to wear". If that is the key skill to get into managment in any buissness (outside the fashion industry), you're doing it *wrong*.

No wonder economy got driven into a crises when you put it into the hands of the best dressed people instead of the best people.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[phantomfive]

It's not about 'looking good' its about trust.....do you trust your employees to dress appropriately for the occasion or not? Dictating dress code shows a lack of trust and respect.

There are enough companies out there that I am willing to leave a company in order to find one that is respectful of me as a professional. I don't need to sell myself for gold, and I believe the GP feels the same way.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[CowboyBob500]

I don't need to sell myself for gold, and I believe the GP feels the same way.

In fact I feel the other way around. I'm the one with the gold. I have the skills and if the company wants my services then they get them on my terms.

I'll admit that at the start of my career I probably spent more time looking for a job than most, but I found that the jobs I did get were more "rounded" (i.e. not cubicle drudgery) and therefore that led me to be more rounded in terms of skills. I now firmly believe that I'm better off than I would have been had I not had this stance.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[CowboyBob500]

You need to up your self-confidence a bit I suspect. A job should never be a one way street where you are dictated at what to do. It should be inclusive with ideas being bounced backwards and forwards between everyone in the team, including management. If you've never been in a job like that, it's likely that it's because you're too willing to accept the "pointless issues".

Re:Resigning Issue...

[CowboyBob500]

then wearing t-shirts and jeans will never get you into the executive suite. You will find that your income runs into a glass ceiling

I have no intention of going near the executive suite. And my income is more than enough for anyone. I don't need any more.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[rtfa-troll]

No one likes wearing business wear. [.....] and making people feel at ease.

Your sentence reminds me of a dilbert cartoon in which the PHB forgets to insert a "United way update" between telling of the great company success and then telling that there can be no pay rises since the company has financial difficulties.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually have a habit of wearing clothes that get me dirty looks from people who see me on the street (my dreadlocks probably don't help this)

Are you sure it is the clothes, and not the smell? It can be difficult for dreadlocks to avoid the "homeless guy" smell if you are not careful. If you smoke, that would be even harder.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[mikael_j]

Seeing as how I actually shower and wash my hair I sincerely doubt there's some weird smell I'm not noticing, at least nothing that compares to the smell of a lot of the suit-claden folk I run into on a daily basis (seriously, there are a lot of people who seem to pay a lot of attention to what they wear but not how they smell).

Also, even if I did smell that wouldn't explain why people shoot me the same looks from across the street...

/Mikael

Re:Resigning Issue...

[digitig]

Why is that modded troll? The guy who worked on the till at my local filling station presented himself in such a way that I had to struggle to suppress my gag reflex. So I tanked up elsewhere. Presentation matters to business.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Hognoxious]

You have free will over whether to wear a tie or not. But people who wear yid lids and ninja suits do it because a nonexistent man with a beard told them they have to.

See the difference now?

Re:Resigning Issue...

[selven]

One word: Google.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[geekmux]

I'd resign if anyone tried to tell me what to wear in the real world, never mind the virtual. I've never worked at a company with a dress code and I never will. Not because I have an aversion to looking smart, but because that kind of control is normally just the tip of the iceberg.

Jesus, ease back there just a tad and relax buddy. Not every dress code policy stems from Hitleresque-control, nor does it result in mind-control. I work in a manufacturing facility. While I rarely find myself venturing anywhere beyond the cube farm and my desk, I'd imagine that there's some level of concern for general safety and health wearing shorts and flip-flops around heavy machinery. In 95% of companies, your sales staff probably isn't going to be selling much coming to work dressed like they're heading to Disney for the day.

Then again, perhaps if we had more people finding a simple respect for even a casual dress code, we wouldn't be finding organizations needing to represent themselves virtually. If you think jeans and a collared shirt is bad, try wearing boots, a helmet and carry 75 pounds of shit on your back heading out in 100-degree heat armed for a "days" work.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[codeButcher]

Contrary to popular geek belief, clothes do more than just cover your body.

True. They also keep appendages from freezing off or sticking together.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[geekmux]

I actually have a habit of wearing clothes that get me dirty looks from people who see me on the street (my dreadlocks probably don't help this (and most people who look at me like I'm worthless scum are the typical "gray suit and tie" Volvo drivers)) and I wear the same clothes to work. But yeah, a speedo may be a hard sell in an office environment.

That said, unless the job requires special clothing (either for identification purposes such as with police officers or firemen or for safety or hygiene reasons) I see no reason for people not to wear whatever they feel like but then I tend to cringe when I enter a store and notice all the employees wearing identical clothing...

/Mikael

You cringe when you see identical clothing? How about the 40-year old office manager you never knew wore tiger-striped t-backs peeking out from her love humps saddled on her 300-pound frame? What, you didn't know that Bob liked to wear a wife beater that showed off his man-boobs? Not being old-fashioned, but walk the mall lately? Half the shit girls wear these days to push-up/pull-out/enlarge/tighten to show off at a club is begging for a sexual harassment lawsuit with just a few glances from horny old men at the office. Have fun with that, HR.

"wear whatever they feel like" leaves a lot to the imagination, most likely a lot of shit you didn't really want to see. Thanks, but no thanks. It's not that hard for me to put on jeans and a collared shirt.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[nizo]

If you really want to know, the real reason I live in the Southwest is so I don't have to wear a tie, but can get away with a bolo tie instead. Seriously, these need to catch on, because they suck so much less than a regular tie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolo_tie

Re:Resigning Issue...

[nizo]

What if my religion believes that all forms of torture are wrong? Heck mine could even be clothing optional, so just be glad my tie is the only article of clothing I left at home.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Viol8]

"It should be inclusive with ideas being bounced backwards and forwards between everyone in the team, including management"

Yeah right. Where do you work , some fluffy web company where everyone walks around in slacks and tiedyes , plays pool 3 hours a day with their managers and gets a vote on company policy? Sorry son, in real companies it doesn't work like that. They pay you money , you do what they tell you or you take a hike. If you don't accept those terms don't accept the job.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Jesus_666]

They are unsanitary in the context of working in a food processing factory. Likewise, they would be unsanitary in an operating room. Some definitions of things change depending on where you are, "unsanitary" is among them.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[jonadab]

> I'd resign if anyone
> tried to tell me what
> to wear in the real
> world, never mind
> the virtual.

I assume you mean when you're off the clock, right?

Because, if you're talking about what you wear *at* work, I don't think I've ever *heard* of an employer that has no dress-code rules at all. The details vary, but pretty much every employer has *some* rules. Where do you work, at a lemonade stand on a French beach?

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Jesus_666]

Apparently you've never been to a food factory. No, the people there don't rinse with industrial bleach but they do wear sterile bonnets. Unfortunately those come in limited size and the usual set of dreadlocks would simply not fit in them.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[delvsional]

yes , i sopport your views , i had never wear a formal dress to the working place , whether it' s a design or advertising company , i won't , beacuse , it makes me feel restrict . the course of life needs happiness .

Are you my uncle? From Nigeria? That wants to give me a million dollars?

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Nerdfest]

Wearing a specific type of clothing is a constitutional right? So if I create a religion that dictates I be naked, can I do that at work? (It would certainly stop most peopl efrom bothering me while I work)

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, don't diss Volvo! I wear "goth" clothes and keep my hair in a black (dyed) ponytail with shaved sides... and I drive a 2009 Volvo V50! :-P

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Tony Hoyle]

We have no rules... and I'm the one that would set them if any. You see we employ smart people not drones.. people that learned how to dress themselves when they were in school and don't need patronising.

I've never worked anywhere that had a dress code. I've seen a few places like that.. and such things always come from overbearing management that think they're slave masters not bosses.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[CowboyBob500]

I'm currently working for one of the UKs largest high street retailers. It's most certainly a real company. And while it's not fluffy in the way you describe, it's definitely democratic in terms of the way it works. Everyone from junior staff up to the IT director works on the same floor and are on first name terms. Everyone has input into decisions. The length of the working day is strictly 7 hours only and it's frowned upon if you work longer. There are no code monkeys here.

I have high standards for myself and I would never accept any job that impinged upon those standards. Others have lower standards obviously and are happy to be code monkey wage slaves. Each to their own of course, but I know where I'd rather be.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Anonymous Coward]

Quite often, an explicit dress code will just say that employees must wear shoes and shirts that cover their belly. In the case of virtual reality, I don't see why it would be a surprise that someone selling Dell computers in a virtual store shouldn't be a pink fuzzy bunny. Customers not accustomed to taking technical advice from rodents just wouldn't take the sales rep seriously.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Nerdfest]

There is a reason that they call it a 'uniform'.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[zwei2stein]

Funny, I work at company where everyone is on first name basis, junior input) and whatnot, etc ... too. And no-one ever had do enforce dress code (much less to write document describing it) or any similar policies. Because everyone understands that they need to be dressed for job appropriately, and anything more than 7 hours is frowned down too.

But, thing is, it works like this nearly everywhere.

Untill, of course, someone goes out of their way and makes trouble. I guarantee you, should anyone step out of line, he will get trouble in my company, and in your company alike. Come to meeting with customer in shorts, cowboy hat and wifebeater shirt and you will soon discover that you really are expected to follow some guidelines. If you refuse, you will get in trouble and be trouble. At that point company will be happy if you resign over that issue and be replaced with someone who can behave.

So, step down from your high horse. And do not believe 'propaganda', you are likely just being scared off leaving your job for 'code monkey slavers' competition that are going to 'piss on your humanity'. There are companies like that, yes, but frankly, company that is open about their rules is not going to be like that, if only because they are serious about what they do.

I would be much more wary of 'fluffy' type company because they can be more damaging as they can get really, really under your skin and you can soon discover that you are their slave too, usually too late.

(You know there is this awesome company i would not name that works like this:

If new hire comes to company, he gets rockstart treatment (sugar). Company also frequntly changes female assistants/receptionists, qualification to get job for them is being single and without boyfriend (no kidding). Official strategy is that each programmer will eventually get interested in one, start dating, get married and then wage slave part begins ... you are now married with children, paying mortage. Your car is company car. Your house is co-owned by company (they were very nice and helped you out). If you quit, you are in deep shit. Rockstar treatment ends. You were in super-friendly company all the time. first name basis and whatnot.)

Re:Resigning Issue...

[necro81]

My last place of work was rather straight-laced. All the professional staff were expected to wear business attire, kinda like this; even us work-a-day engineers and IT folks.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Firethorn]

I suppose I should have clarified that I was talking more about those places where everyone wears identical shirts, shoes, pants and possibly hats as well as name tags with the company logo.

You think that's bad, one guy in a topic some time ago was issued company boxers - and he was working for a bank.

Worse- they wanted them back when he left.

When I worked retail my uniform was company shirt(issued), black pants(self obtained, conservative - IE no latex/leather/10 sizes too large) and name tag.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[OhPlz]

Why wouldn't they take a fuzzy bunny seriously? People buy insurance from a talking gecko. Remember those old Wellbutrin commercials? I'm sure many thousands of people got their doctors to prescribe the medicine suggested by the happy bouncing bubble.

If I wanted technical advice and was using a virtual world, a detailed hand crafted avatar would scream knowledge to me more so than a generic pick one from the list suit and tie clone. Virtual worlds can be what we make them, it'd be such a shame if they ended up being identical to the real world. What would be the point?

Re:Resigning Issue...

[mapkinase]

If you "create a religion", then it's not a religion and you are lying.

Argument fail.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny post. You could have just pointed out that most people you interact with will judge you on your appearance and you would have been completely correct. But then you think stating this fact will excuse you from being small minded and petty?

Take your appearance, as you've described yourself here, for example. You would have to knock my socks on their asses before I bought anything from you. Why? Because I have a very negative reaction to dreadlocks. I think they're disgusting. And if you're not black, those are best not described as dreadlocks, but "matted, filthy, homeless hair." You might be the nicest guy in the world. I might want to hang out with you (you'd endure endless shit for the dreadlocks, though), but I don't want to have anything to do with your company because I don't know of any good companies that would let you out of the basement, let alone hire you.

I read that as "I'm a jackass". Most people being jackasses in this respect changes nothing about you being one.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[hansamurai]

just be glad my tie is the only article of clothing I left at home.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plumbers_Don't_Wear_Ties

Re:Resigning Issue...

[justleavealonemmmkay]

You don't get it. They're religions. That makes bad taste in clothing, child mutilations, not eating otherwise delicious food OK...

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Anonymous Coward]

It would be no different if the business community standardized on strap-on dildos and horse-tail butt-plugs.

Literally, no. But Management can sure act like it.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[D Ninja]

I don't want you to think I'm just coming down on you like "the Man," man. This is, in fact, all new to me. I'm 35 now, but I was a goth until I was about 29. I wasn't dirty (very few goths are); I dressed well (just all black), and I'm a pretty smart cookie. But it just seemed like I couldn't make anything happen. No one would hire me for anything worthwhile, despite my solid academic record and recommendations from previous employers. I blamed all sorts of things--the economy (okay, that had a hand in it), stupid HR people (is there any other kind?), the time I got diarrhea from eating the expired food in my fridge (all I had left) during the interview--but once the (tasteful--not tribal) earrings were removed, hair was returned to natural brown, and I threw some more colors into my wardrobe, things picked up almost immediately.

This. When I was in high school and early in my college career, I always promised myself I wouldn't worry about what people wore, and I certainly wouldn't ever spend a ton on clothes or worry about what I was wearing. What I did was all that mattered. Then, through some life changes, I was (sort of) forced to go out and buy a new wardrobe.

Wow.

I was amazed at the response change from people. All of a sudden, I was more respected. I was dating regularly. People found me more approachable. It almost disgusted me with how shallow it all seemed. But, in all honesty, who doesn't do that? We all judge by appearance. Those people who present a better appearance are more likely to get their ideas and thoughts heard in the first place.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[D Ninja]

The odds of it are low, you have to work hard for years, you have to put up with politics for years to do it, and lets face it the most sure way to get there are to throw all your morals out the window and backstab your way there. On top of that all those years you're doing shit that just isn't fun. No thanks. Give me career options of that or dropping out and flipping burgers, I'll take burgers.

You're assuming moving up in an already established company. What happens if you get the idea to create your own? Sure, for awhile you can come across as the "brash, young entrepreneur" but that gets old somewhat quickly. If you want people to fund your business and trust your ideas, you have to put on a good appearance.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Krneki]

I agree with you, but remember, wear a mask for too long and you will forget who you are.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I'd hire up all the talented freaks who can't get hired at your mediocre but professionally dressed company. Any company that turns away talented, qualified, and intelligent people on the basis of their appearance (especially if the position is not publicly facing) is going to suffer in the market. Either your competitor will hire them or if they can't find work, they'll build their own startups and end up being your competitor. You'll be middle-level nothing in middle America, and the smart people you turned away may just end up leading the way in Silicon Valley.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[hodet]

That's not a work dress code. It's a societal one. Unless you are at the beach.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[chord.wav]

The golden path-to-profit:
1 - Those who makes the rules, get the gold.
2 - Those who have the gold, make the rules.
3 - GOTO 1

BTW: WTF is wrong with this POST form?!

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Kartoffel]

All human hair and flesh harbors bacteria. It's simply unavoidable. Just put a hair net on if you're going to be working around food.

If you wash your dreadlocks regularly they probably won't be too nasty, but I've also seen real authentic street people with dreadlocks that were turning into compost on their heads. Literally decomposing tangles of putrid shit dangling from their heads. Of course that's not representative of all dreadlocks, but it's an example of what not to wear when working around food.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[mdwh2]

It's sad that so many people are bigotted even to the extent of colours worn by a person - and I fail to see how this means that it's that individual who has a problem!

stupid HR people (is there any other kind?),

Well actually they are to blame, if it turned out that their decisions were based on something as petty as this. Who's the "petulent child"?

I'm not saying that appearance is really a good indication of your abilities. It isn't; we all know that. What I'm saying is that it's like proper spelling: We value it not for what it is, but what it implies: This person gives a shit.

But it's not like that at all - that analogy might work for someone who was untidy or unclean, but as you said yourself, you dressed well, and the problem was simply your choice of colour and so on.

The idea that this means you and such people don't "give a shit" is untrue, and on the contrary, the very opposite is true: goths on average seem to care an awful lot more about dress!

It's a common bad stereotype to dismiss people as not caring, being untidy or unclear, when actually the problem is merely that they look different, and goths are exactly the perfect counter-example to that stereotype. (Similarly with the bad stereotype of long hair equalling untidyness ... um except for 50% of the population of course.)

The analogy with bad spelling is also irrelevant - spelling serves the purpose of communication, and requires effort to get right. Tell me how clothing colour affects things, and requires effort?

so it's slacks and collared shirts for all.

Except not if they're black? Or would they be okay after all?

Of course I don't know how you really mean you dressed - I can understand if you meant you turned up like you were dressed for a nightclub, but then that could apply to anyone (e.g., a woman turning up in rather revealing clothing). But it's still possible to dress in a range of clothing, whilst still putting in effort and not looking a "freak", whether it's casual or smart (e.g., so-called "corpgoth").

Personally I'm doing fine so far at 30, and have yet to consider that I might advance my career more by dressing up like a rainbow.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[mdwh2]

Not This.

Since when were goths that segment of society who didn't care about appearance ... the complete opposite is true if you ask me!

Don't confuse dressing differently, with whatever lack of appearance and effort you portrayed in the past.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Kartoffel]

Nope. There are still laws relating to hygiene, obscenity and safety.

Say a woman wanted to wear long flowing hijab while operating a machine with rotating parts. Her clothes could get caught in it. Usually people are restricted from wearing loose clothes in those sorts of jobs. If she refuses to wear safe clothing, it's not discrimination against her religion (forbidden), it is discrimination on grounds of safety (perfectly reasonable).

Re:Resigning Issue...

[D Ninja]

I wasn't. I was merely pointing out how a certain type of appearance portrays a completely different message (goth vs. prep vs. business vs. casual vs. whatever) and how important it is to dress the part for the role you want or are in to be taken seriously. (Plus, I was also a bit surprised at the change in people towards me and just wanted to relay that.)

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Veggiesama]

I'd be glad if someone can come up with a fashion that looks decently "business like", is practical and doesn't involve ties and zillions of buttons.

http://www.st-spike.org/pages/uniforms/uniforms.htm

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Kartoffel]

Awesome.

Wow man, it's a drag being a rock
I wish I was anything but a rock
Heck, I'd even like to be a policeman
Hey, you know what, you know maybe if I practiced, you know
Maybe if I passed my driving test
I could get a gig drivin' that bus and pick some freaks up
In front of Ben Franks, right!

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Demogoblin]

... and your appearance may not present an image that is good for the company...

"Just ask yourself: Is this good for the company"

Re:Resigning Issue...

[TobyRush]

how important it is to dress the part for the role you want or are in to be taken seriously.

This really shouldn't come as a surprise. As a college prof, I see a lot of students who have this sense of entitlement ("I should be able to rebel and still get all the same opportunities that my non-rebellious classmates get"). The fact is, the true "rebel" is the one who dresses and/or acts rebelliously and embraces the consequences. If you're not willing to do that, you might want to reconsider your reasons for rebelling.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[mdwh2]

The problem is that "goth" tells us nothing of use here - it could range anything from turning up as if dressed for a nightclub (which would be a problem for most people, whether alternative or not), to dressing smartly in suits that just happen to have more black in their colour (in which case, it's certainly not true to say they aren't dressing well, or aren't putting effort in, and they are surely "dressing the part"), with a whole range in between.

Unfortunately it's unclear what the OP actually dressed like. He seemed to conflate the issues, talking as if how he dressed was untidily, but also saying that he dressed well, and the only difference was that it was "just all black".

Dressing smartly, albeit in all black, is a long way from the experience of people who dress poorly (whatever colour they wear).

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Jessta]

This is why you should use social networking services with a pseudonym - otherwise the company thinks you're on their clock, all the time.

huh? so instead of standing up for your rights you advocate giving in to your employers insane demands by hiding your life.
If the company thinks you're on their clock all the time, then they should be paying you all the time.

The problem with dress codes is that they spill out of the work environment and in to the rest of your life. If you're employer doesn't want you to have piercings or green hair then you can't really have them at the times you're not a work either. Which is bullshit.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[NiteShaed]

If you "create a religion", then it's not a religion and you are lying.

As opposed to the ones we have, which started out as someone creating a religion? Following that logic, all religions are lies, and should therefore be disregarded entirely (which actually sounds about right to me)

Re:Resigning Issue...

[jddj]

"I'd be glad if someone can come up with a fashion that looks decently "business like", is practical and doesn't involve ties and zillions of buttons."

Ever watch a show called "Star Trek"?

Get out there and get the trend going. We'll join when folks stop pasting "kick me" signs on your back.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Anonymous Coward]

HAH just last week i was cruisin through the mall with my babe after she got off work. She hands me a stack of cash and says hold onto it to which i replied 'sure, but you have pockets'. Turns out the two back pockets on her slacks and the one on her vest are all fakes.

I don't know how many pieces she was wearing exactly but i would guess 5 plus undies and not a single damn pocket.

As for dress codes, well uniforms are necessary and never hurt a company image but the companies I have worked for have seen increased production by relaxing dress codes. Even when i was doing framing and trim work we found it was better to just let the guys wear there street cloths as long as there was no offensive or suggestive logos. The biggest thing there was shirts, if you want a cut rate framer to show up on time you can't expect him to show up in a clean polo everyday and be happy. Sure he looks sharp but hes pissed that you had to yell at him for being late and gets jack shit done that day.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[mapkinase]

The difference is that you will be adherent to something that you know you are lying about, being a "Creator" of it, while adherents to Islam for example sincerely believe that it is a true religion from God.

One can conceal hypocrisy only to some extent.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Viol8]

"The length of the working day is strictly 7 hours only and it's frowned upon if you work longer. There are no code monkeys here. "

Just a bunch of lazy sods by the sound of it.

"I have high standards for myse"

Heh , translation: "I want an easy ride where I can coast along and not do much work"

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Golddess]

Says who? Your invisible sky daddy? My invisible sky daddy says it's perfectly ok to "create a religion" and that it isn't lying.

Now that the requisite invisible sky daddy fight is out of the way, seriously, what makes your point true?

Re:Resigning Issue...

[metlin]

Eh, I *wish* more companies had a dress code.

Most people dress for work in ways that they shouldn't ever be caught in at home, leave alone a professional environment.

I'm sorry, but having worked in well dressed and sloppy environments, I can tell you that working in the former is at the very least a lot more aesthetically pleasing (i.e. I do not want to see a fat person's jelly rolls or someone's dirty feet or smell their sweat at work).

I'm not talking about something draconian, but how hard is business casual, really? Slacks, a dress shirt, decent shoes and basic grooming - is it really that hard for people?

Re:Resigning Issue...

[iamhigh]

Well, you basically are doing the same thing, only with a different base perspective. A marketing guy would tell you that you're crazy to not dress provacative... it will have poeple coming by your office, wanting to chat with you, include you on projects, etc. All for nothing that has anything to do with your abilities. The same can be said for someone who is "professional" or "clean cut". While those might be good for meeting clients and again the marketing guy loves them, but to us who work behind the scenes, and know we can get away wearing jeans a t-shirt, it's the same as you not showing some cleavage.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[NiteShaed]

You're assuming that the people who created all of these religions originally did so because they believed it was the "true religion from [$DEITY]", rather than just a bunch of people who wanted to make their own rules and get other people to follow them.

And who knows, maybe I really do believe that some deity really does hate business attire. Go ahead, prove that I *don't* believe that. Who are you to say that my weird and inconsistent beliefs are any less valid than your own weird and inconsistent beliefs?

Re:Resigning Issue...

[SirLanse]

It is just the Avatar. My work emails have a format. My name and title at the bottom. This is followed by my number, ext and the logo. I do not send emails like this to my friends and family. I don't send ones signed SirLanse to my boss. How hard is it to keep your avatars separate? The company wants to control the look of the avatars it is paying for. They control the paint on the company cars. This is separate from personal dress code.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[metlin]

> Good luck moving up in your company, then (unless you're in design or something).

Really? Because most marketing (branding) folks that I've worked with who do design are fairly well dressed.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Golddess]

Good luck moving up in your company

As responsibilities go up, freedom tends to go down. Not saying that's a good or a bad thing, but different people have different priorities in life.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[mapkinase]

"maybe I really do believe that some deity really does hate business attire"

Sure, if you really believe then you should really fight for your beliefs and I would respect that. But that is not what you said.

That's another difference. True sign of sincerity of religion conviction is the degree of sacrifice of material things: property, possessions, family, position in society, job, health and, eventually, life.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Oligonicella]

"I tend to cringe"

Which is exactly what you indicated bothered you about the "gray suit and tie" folks when they spotted you... cringing. The "worthless scum" idea is only your interpretation of the cringe.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[mapkinase]

Please read the other sub thread on the difference. In short, the difference is in the sincerity of the belief. If you say "I create the religion", that means that you do not believe in reality in the stuff you made up.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[PitaBred]

It's not a religion if you don't have enough followers:

"What is a cult? It just means not enough people to make a minority." - Robert Altman
"A cult is a religion with no political power." - Thomas Wolfe

Re:Resigning Issue...

[PitaBred]

Depends on the employee. I've worked with a number of people who I wouldn't trust to choose appropriate attire simply because I don't think it's something that ever occurred to them.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[mikael_j]

Cringe: To shrink or recoil, as in fear, disgust or embarrassment.

Someone who reacts this way to another person simply because they dislike the other person's choice of clothing or hairstyle is not reacting in exactly the same way as someone who reacts this way when noticing dress codes enforced on employees by an employer.

In the first case it's a reaction to personal choices made by an individual which have little to no impact on the person reacting, in the second case it's a reaction to choices made by other people that impact a third party (and which are intended to impact said third party).

/Mikael

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Oligonicella]

"a detailed hand crafted avatar" could also be purchased by a sixteen year old idiot.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[BrokenHalo]

...but they do wear sterile bonnets.

Close. The bonnets are not sterile, since there is absolutely no point in covering non-sterile hair with a sterile porous membrane. The purpose is simply to keep particulates from falling off hair on to anything that comes near food.

The actual wording of the code as I implement it is "any hair of more than one day's growth must be covered".

My boss hates having to wear a mask to cover his moustache, but I'm the one with the microbiology background, and he does as he's told. :-) I go to the opposite extreme. I'm perfectly happy to shave my head as well as my face...

But natty dreads would just be too much of a risk, and I wouldn't allow them through the door.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[schon]

If you say "I create the religion", that means that you do not believe in reality in the stuff you made up.

It means no such thing.

If he didn't believe it, why would he say he wanted to create it?

In short - prove he doesn't believe in his religion.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[BrokenHalo]

Likewise, they would be unsanitary in an operating room.

I often get comments to the effect that my cheese factory looks like an operating theatre. My response is always that a surgeon only gets to kill one patient at a time, whereas I can potentially kill hundreds - so my theatre has to be cleaner.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Anonymous Coward]

typical "gray suit and tie" Volvo drivers

So you hate it when people make assumptions about you by what you're wearing?

Re:Resigning Issue...

[couchslug]

I wouldn't have an avatar in the first place because they are, let's face it, stupid vain nonsense.
I don't need to be represented by a cartoon character other than those I vote into office.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in an office that is officially business casual, but isn't actually.

I have no objections to people wearing low-slung jeans. I have no objections to people not wearing belts. I have no objections to people not wearing underwear. But the three should not be allowed together in an office environment.

I'm getting to the point where I am immune to seeing coworkers arse cleavage. I wish our office would raise the level of the dress code, or at least make it business casual, not borderline indecent exposure.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Hognoxious]

I wish I was as cool as you.

Do you have an earring, or perhaps a nose stud?

Re:Resigning Issue...

[mapkinase]

To create a religion is by definition to make it up.

True prophets did not create religion, it was sent to them by God. No single true prophet set "I created religion".

Re:Resigning Issue...

[BJ_Covert_Action]

I'd be glad if someone can come up with a fashion that looks decently "business like", is practical and doesn't involve ties and zillions of buttons.

Hawaiian shirts and blue jeans. I've been rocking them in business casual environments for years now and haven't had my dress code questioned once. They are light, practical, fun, kinda classy (with an appropriate mindset) and don't require a uniform change before you head to the bars after the job ;)

Though I must say, that particular style starts to look a little funny when I accessorize with with my motorcycle boots and Thinkgeek gadget hip holster. Maybe its less accepted and more 'ignored because it makes people uncomfortable' than I thought....hmmmm...

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Jesus_666]

Ah, right. It's been some time since I worked in that cookie factory. Damn good student holiday job.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Anonymous Coward]

You are a very weak person.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Hognoxious]

If you "create a religion", then it's not a religion and you are lying.

So where did the religions that say men have to wear a nursing pad on their heads and women aren't allowed out unless they're wearing a tent come from?

Did someone create them, or did they fall out of the sky?

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Hognoxious]

I bet in some EU countries that isn't the case.

She'd get awarded 88 trillion quid in compensation and she (or rather her husband and brothers) would be able to live in luxury for the rest of their lives.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Hognoxious]

As Oscar Wilde said:

Religion: a large, wealthy, powerful cult.

Cult: a small, impoverished, powerless religion.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[TheLink]

Did your workplace supply the shades and earpieces too? ;)

Re:Resigning Issue...

[WNight]

Eyebrows? Ear hair?

Re:Resigning Issue...

[WNight]

True prophets

Idiot.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[icylucifer]

I agree with you, but remember, wear a mask for too long and you will forget who you are.

That's a good point, Batman.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[rubies]

I didn't say it was right, it's just how things are right now.

All I know is this: I commented with my own name on Usenet for many, many years without it being a problem, but recently had a few blog comments brought up during a review. This was a big wake up call for me - because there are no real rules regarding when you are "on" and "off" the clock, the dirtbag company now thinks my name belongs to them.

Sure, we know it doesn't but corporations creepily overstepping the mark are here to stay.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[kklein]

Black, European-fit collared shirts, tight black non-jeans, kinda clunky black (shined--always shined) shoes with thick soles, short black carefully mussed hair, four small hoop earrings (2 in each ear). This was my work attire.

Not conflating anything. I wasn't showing up in bondage wear or anything.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[kklein]

I'm a college prof now, too, and I concur.

And I guess that's what I was doing. I kinda thought I was so great that I didn't need to worry about the consequences, and that is why I called our be-dreadlocked grandparent a child. There is a very small standard deviation on intelligence, I think, and even if you're pretty smart, you're far from alone in that. You won't be given any special treatment until you have really, really proven yourself or unless you are really, really smart. Refusing to submit to totally reasonable norms like business wear is arrogant and a symptom of much more serious attitudinal problems that most employers just plain don't want to take a chance with.

That being said, I think we, as profs, need to remember South Park's wisdom: "There is a time and a place for everything. And that's college." I can't be too hard on people for screwing up; this is the safe place we as a society have created precisely for screwing up.

The problem arises when you get out of college and still think it's okay to screw up.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[TRosenbaum]

standing next to some f**ing big machine trying to strange you with your own tie.

Which is why police officers and others at risk of strangulation by tie usually wear clip-on ties.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[camazotz]

I totally empathize. I loved my very, very long blonde rocker-boy hair in college, but ultimately realized I didn't start excelling in the business world until I discovered I was prematurely balding at a young age (about 24 at the time)....the thought of long hair with a bald spot (hillbilly/biker casual) was too much for me, so I went for the crew-cut marine look, and ironically have found that the loss of my long hair opened up all sorts of opportunities I had previously been denied due to the discrimination that runs rampant in business society. My wife is a semi-reformed goth, but she also acquired a large number of tattoos before the age of 20, and that has created a situation that forces her to always dress in long sleeves shirts to avoid exposing them in the workplace. She's very happy when she gets lucky and finds an office space that is more relaxed about such things (she temps). As for the avatars, the only one I have is bald, too. I'll be damned if my avatar is allowed to have hair if I'm not! But if anyone tells me not to dress him like a yippe-kai-yey cowboy, well screw them!

Re:Resigning Issue...

[TheLink]

1) Create religion
2) ???
3) Prophet!

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Walkingshark]

Again, look at the wording in the Constitution. In the US it is just as illegal to discriminate based on "creed" as it is to discriminate based on "religion" or those other things.

No sky daddy required.

Re:Resigning Issue...

[Walkingshark]

You don't need to create a religion.

The Constitution protects people from discrimination based on Creed. If you live by a code that includes not wearing ties, they can't legally force you to do so without violating the clear meaning of the Constitution.

I just got a headache from the level of stupid

[mirix]

It's a bad one too.

I suppose a naked android avatar should be prescribed, then no one's feelings can be hurt... except the android haters.

How about no avatar..? And no twitter while we're at it.

Makes Sense

[Anonymous Coward]

were not talking personal avatars/twitters etc, thats a seperate, more difficult problem.

this is about representing a company, situations like gaming with developers, company islands in second life, twitter feeds for businesses. situations where an employee is representing their organisation on an official level in a digital context.

i think the same company office policy should simply extend to the online realm. in second life you avatars dress code should reflect the dress code of the business, same with behavior, etc.

for example i apply a simmilar policy to my work mobile. no custom tones or backgrounds, it uses a generic ringtone and the company logo as the background, no good sitting down to a meeting with a client and having the "crazy frog" or star wars theme start blaring out of my phone.

Re:Makes Sense

[Anonymous Coward]

Wonder how they'll handle non-employees rocking up in professional gear to hassles customers etc. Would be fun to try it :)

Re:Makes Sense

[stephanruby]

this is about representing a company, situations like gaming with developers, company islands in second life, twitter feeds for businesses. situations where an employee is representing their organisation on an official level in a digital context.

I doubt that. Those are already depersonalized, white-washed, and boring as can be. Plus, most large tech companies already have policies for what employees can post on their own personal blogs, so this avatar policy just seems to be an extension of that.

for example i apply a simmilar policy to my work mobile. no custom tones or backgrounds, it uses a generic ringtone and the company logo as the background, no good sitting down to a meeting with a client and having the "crazy frog" or star wars theme start blaring out of my phone.

Not me, I'll mute my "crazy frog" phone before I even sit down for a meeting. Generic tones or not, I hate cell phones ringing in meetings.

Plus, the x-rated avatar of my fat naked male body is opt-in only, so if you see me naked -- it's your own damn fault anyway. Everyone else, assuming they don't change their settings, only sees the default PG-13 properly dressed version of me.

Re:Makes Sense

[loudmax]

I pretty much agree with everything you said, up till the "Crazy Frog" and Star Wars part. The Crazy Frog themes I've heard are Axel-F and Popcorn. I can understand not wanting the phone to ring when you sit down with a client, but in the technology world having 80's pop hits or science fiction themes as ring tones are about as innocuous as it gets.

But yeah, the overall point still stands as long as we're talking about company avatars, not private avatars. If you're being paid to represent a company, it makes sense for them to set the terms. Of course companies that set overly restrictive policies may hurt their own image if their image is perceived as too staid. It depends what kind of industry they're in. If I were to find that my bank had a presence in Second Life I'd count it against them no matter what the avatar looked like.

Re:Makes Sense

[bickerdyke]

Don't you dare sending any links, but where is the *viewer* able to decide what avatar he gets to see?

Give me a break

[Anonymous Coward]

In a land that refuses things like bidets, but is beyond anal with outside appearance, this absolutely floors me.

It's OK for your butt to smell, but heaven forbid your friggin avatar is inappropriately dressed?!?!

Re:Give me a break

[Anonymous Coward]

You forget.. We're Americans, our shit doesn't stink.

Re:Give me a break

[raftpeople]

Correction: Your nose smells, your butt stinks

heh, second life

[JeanBaptiste]

it would be amusing to be in a boring-ass meeting in a conference room with 20 other people and suddenly 8 million flying penises come in. heck i'd kinda like to see that in first life. for giggles, not for gayness. not that theres anything wrong with that.

WTF!?!

[warbeast]

Don't you all think this is getting a bit ridiculous? The day I let an employer tell me what to do with my avatars or personal web space is the day hell freezes over. I don't think an employer has the right to tell me how to think, dress, or act when I am not at the office. They sure as hell don't have the right to tell my fake persona what to do either. You don't like it that I want to dress my Master Chief in hot pink high heels and a garter belt, well how bout you pick up that controller and get fragged in the face for a few hours. Seriously though, the bullshit that companies are getting away with such as firing people for blogging about inane crap on a web site that acts a virtual high school is kinda ridiculous. How bout you time wasting managers stop browsing social networking sites and get back to your doing your real job and get the products out the door so our company can make more money and higher better staff and maybe, just maybe turn the economy around. Or you can just act like note passing, tattle-tale sissies and see how far that gets you. /endrant

Re:WTF!?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously, being a note passing, tattle-tale sissy got them far. They're your boss after all, and you're the one out on your ass looking for a job not them.

Re:WTF!?!

[warbeast]

Which makes me want to play the game and as soon as I am in a position to rid myself of these leeches, I will do so.

Re:WTF!?!

[Oligonicella]

"The day I let an employer tell me what to do with my avatars or personal web space is the day hell freezes over."

"Which makes me want to play the game..."

Contradiction.

"as soon as I am in a position"

Your chances are slim to none.

Consider the source - Gartner == FAIL!

[tomhudson]

Gartner gets so many things wrong, so much of the time, why should this be any different?

The day someone tells me how to dress is the day they find out that they can't tell me how to dress.

As long as it's clean, presentable, and isn't festooned with slogans promoting criminal acts or competitors' products, it's simply not their business.

And it's not like an avatar is going to have to abide by safety codes like "hard hats required beyond this point".

If your company is depending on avatars to try to hide the fact that "Bob" in customer support in Idaho is really "Bashir" in New Dehli, it ain't gonna work.

Re:Consider the source - Gartner == FAIL!

[bickerdyke]

As long as it's clean, presentable, and isn't festooned with slogans promoting criminal acts or competitors' products, it's simply not their business.

That IS a dresscode already.

A reasonable one. And I don't mind a reasonable dresscode. ("Reasonable" might vary from buissness to buissness)

I remember that guy from my last job. Company lore went that he is still proud of beeing the reason for dress code similar to the above was formaly introduced. The only company so far where I've seen the the rule to wash and shower from time to time in the employee handbook.

Re:Consider the source - Gartner == FAIL!

[D Ninja]

As long as it's clean, presentable, and isn't festooned with slogans promoting criminal acts or competitors' products, it's simply not their business.

I would argue that, if your company is paying you, it is very much their business how you represent your company. What you wear outside of work - yeah, I would agree hands off (for the most part...this can't be true with all jobs). But, while you're at work, representing your employer, they have a right to say, "Here's how you should look when you represent us."

Re:Consider the source - Gartner == FAIL!

[tomhudson]

I would argue that, if your company is paying you, it is very much their business how you represent your company.

... and I would argue that if they want to tell me how to dress, they should have to pay for it with their pre-tax dollars. Then I'd point out that what they're requiring is really a company "uniform", and that the law here is clear - they are required to pay for employee uniforms.

As to this whole avatar junk, second life will never be "where it's at", so who gives a shit about avatars anyways, except for those trying to generate "buzz" (like Gartner) because they have nothing of substance to offer.

Better yet, when't the last time that Gartner came out with something that didn't want to make you tag it "wankers"

Re:Consider the source - Gartner == FAIL!

[GargamelSpaceman]

Gartner is there so that if something turns out to be wrong, it's partly Gartner's fault and you can still keep your job.

What?

[z_gringo]

WTF? Are companies paying people to represent them in a virtual environment?

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

If that would be so, this measure would make sense.

It has to be that, since telling your employees how to think/act/dress in their free time, virtual or not, is just ridiculous.

Re:What?

[Darinbob]

My company requires me to maintain a rank 8 on my warlock.

Re:What?

[Chris Mattern]

And the next time you show up wearing green gear, you're fired!

According To Analysts...

[DynaSoar]

... analysts will tell you all kinds of goofy stuff, particularly if they think they can get you to pay them to tell you more about how to do it, including why it works (miraculously, with no research having been done to support their reasons), as well as what you're doing wrong when it doesn't work ('listening to them' never seems to make the list). In this case they'll turn the long disused and discredited 'dress for success' construct and apply it to the cartoons they say are so important as replacements for people, but which most businesses would usually be embarrased to use when a real person is available.

Great. Here it comes...

[Tracy Reed]

"casual friday" for avatars.

Bill Lumbergh: Oh, and remember: next Friday... is Hawaiian shirt day. So, you know, if you want to, go ahead and wear a Hawaiian shirt and jeans.

Already have this in IBM

[Anonymous Coward]

And it is pretty much a no brainer.

If you use the avatar for anything that may be business related then it should be an avatar that shows some level of professionalism. If your talking about a product you sell while your avatar looks like a refugee from a Doug Winger collection then yea it is out of order.

If it is your own personal avatar on your personal time not work related then its ok. However the work/real life/virtual life are blurring.

Re:Already have this in IBM

[forgotten_my_nick]

You should probably not google doug winger if your in work (and what is seen cannot be unseen) O_O

Re:Already have this in IBM

[rtfa-troll]

the work/real life/virtual life are blurring.

People are allowing their work and social life to blur but it's a real problem. I think it's very important to keep them separate, but that most people don't yet understand the technology or it's implications. I'm allowed to use my work computer and email for limited personal reasons (before you tell me that that's stupid; it's only stupid if your company lacks competent lawyers; or possibly if you live in the USA), however I keep clear tagging; personal stuff is generally under one userID; work another. At the very least I use clearly labelled folders. I have music I can listen to on my company phone, but I use a separate memory card which I paid for; which is clearly labelled as personal and where I keep the receipt. Keeping this boundary intact is critical.

It's very simple to apply this to the virtual world. You should have two separate avatars. One you use from work; one you use from home. Do not link them in any way. Make it clear to people which one they should interact with depending on circumstances (e.g. your friend's avatar wants to have sex with your work avatar; if you even admit who you are you then you say "sorry I'm working. I'll be off later"); if it's the suit which is turning them on, then get another avatar dressed in a sharp suit too.

There are very clear legal differences between these different things. If I have my (legally copied) music on my card I can use privacy laws to limit the companies access to them during an audit (you still have to allow access if you want to demonstrate that you haven't been stealing company secrets, but you can make an agreement that they can't have any personal material). If I have the same stuff on a company computer I may actually have indulged in unlicensed copying because the act of putting it on the company computer from my personal media is copying/distribution (even if the music is CC-SA or some such, I may not in a position to agree to the CC-SA for the company). If you have material on your personal computer at home you have much more protection still. In the context of Avatars, as long as you do your best to maintain the separation, the very fact that your HR researched what other avatar you have in private life should already be a breach of privacy laws in any civilised country.

In that context, what's the difficulty with a dress policy for your work avatar? You should treat your work avatar as company property. Let them dispose of it as they wish. Do not share anything personal with a company unless you are a contractor with your own company (in which case nothing will save you from liability).

Re:Already have this in IBM

[forgotten_my_nick]

I think what you say is fine if your just a normal run of the mill job that isn't going to go anywhere.

But what if you want to become a speaker on the technology you sell? To some extent your personal life will impact your business life.

Btw, in relation to your example on your mobile phone. Some companies just bringing your mobile phone into work constitutes it falling under the business.

Now this avatar business I don't see it as extreme as the old days where IBM had employees who measured your clothing to ensure you followed the strict dress code.

But just thinking that what you do in your private life should have no impact is wrong.

Re:Already have this in IBM

[digitig]

It's very simple to apply this to the virtual world. You should have two separate avatars.

That would be a breach of the T&Cs of many (most?) virtual worlds. Arguably less professional than wandering around the virtual world as a naked furry.

Re:Already have this in IBM

[Jurily]

If you use the avatar for anything that may be business related then it should be an avatar that shows some level of professionalism

No. It's what they *do* that should be important, not what they look like.

Re:Already have this in IBM

[jonadab]

> People are allowing
> their work and social
> life to blur but it's a
> real problem. I think
> it's very important to
> keep them separate

Indeed.

A couple of years ago I had a boss who was really into the whole social networking thing ("Library 2.0"; believe me, you don't want to know; it's MUCH more inane than it sounds), and at some point he got this idea that it'd be cool if we were to link to employees' personal blogs from the library website. He thought it would be a cool way to add a personal touch and let patrons get to feeling like they "know" the staff. Which sounds good, I suppose, if you have no sense.

So, since I'm the computer guy, he asked me, "Hey, Nathan, do you have a blog?"

Fortunately at this point he'd already mentioned a couple of times his idea to link to personal blogs from the website, so I had the good sense to be vague, and then after a moment I waived a metaphorical arm around for a minute and redirected his attention to the discussion forum I'd set up on the library website, intended for people to discuss books and library issues and stuff.

Yeah, I have a personal blog, but it really wasn't any of his business and wouldn't be appropriate to link to from the library website. I express views on there that I would *not* be allowed to express while representing the library. (A public library can be a very ideologically oppressive work environment for a conservative.) Under no circumstances would I allow the library to dictate what I can say when I'm NOT at work. If it ever comes around to that, they can jolly well go find another IT guy.

Re:Already have this in IBM

[Anonymous Coward]

So said the giant purple dildo in bondage gear. Have you seen some of the stuff in second life? Try having that taint your online meeting in a virtual world.

Re:Already have this in IBM

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd like to hear why, in excruciating detail, any sort of dress code can indicate professionalism better than behavior can.

"If it is your own personal avatar on your personal time" --- an interesting point, considering avatars can be changed with the click of a button.
If you have an unacceptable hairstyle or unacceptable piercings in real life, it doesn't matter how professional you act. Suddenly, an aspect of your appearance that cannot be turned off at 9AM and turned back on at 5PM makes or breaks you. Your body is owned by your employer. Don't like it? Try dying.
(--says kid who shoved a stainless steel safety pin btwn ophthalmic nerve and skull, at traditional eyebrow piercing location, after loss of last job--for reasons that had everything to do with the economy, if you're curious)

Re:Already have this in IBM

[Ihmhi]

Not that anyone Rs T F-in' A, but the dress code applies only to avatars associated with the company (say, a company that has a store in Second Life).

Re:Already have this in IBM

[rtfa-troll]

That would be a breach of the T&Cs of many (most?) virtual worlds. Arguably less professional than wandering around the virtual world as a naked furry.

Then it's a virtual world not suited to corporate use. Have your legal people go negotiate quick. They're probably completely clueless if they have never thought of this and you can take them completely.

Re:Already have this in IBM

[rtfa-troll]

We're aware of that, but what you had probably never thought of is that some people are planning to associate their personal avatar with "the company". I can fully understand why you would find that incomprehensible.

Re:Already have this in IBM

[rtfa-troll]

I think your post is a perfect example of the lack of undersanding that I was talking about.

But what if you want to become a speaker on the technology you sell? To some extent your personal life will impact your business life.

What I was saying is that people's private and personal life tends to accidentally merge if they are careless. In the case you have given the only difference is that that risk is even stronger. You're acting like this is something completely new, when it isn't. Celebrities and politicians have long dealt with the same problem for a long time. What you see is that those that deal with it successfully are generally those who make the boundary between private and public life clear.

An example you should take is from Steve Jobs. Whatever else may be true about his products; his ability to sell them is without controversy. His private life/public life boundary is particularly strong and successful and doesn't stop him selling.

To be honest, I can only really imagine this being a problem for a person in some kind of third rate "live the company" desperate sales position in a pyramid marketing company.

Btw, in relation to your example on your mobile phone. Some companies just bringing your mobile phone into work constitutes it falling under the business.

In some (but not most) legal jurisdictions they may even be right. I can see this being completely justified in a high security working envrionment. In that case you just wouldn't bring your own mobile in. Some special jobs have special requirements. So what?

But just thinking that what you do in your private life should have no impact is wrong.

If your private life breaks the law, then I can imagine that. Otherwise, your private life is, and should remain, private. This is separate from your "out of work public life". If you are a politician wanting to abolish copyright, then working for a major label might reasonably be ruled out. However, if you just quietly support the pirate party, that is something which it should really be illegal for them to find out let alone use against you.

Derp

[Anonymous Coward]

Everytime I think Scott Adams has surely done something to ridiculous to happen...

Gartner again?

[NeuralAbyss]

Remind me again.. why do people listen to Gartner any more?

I can't think of a meaningful thing they've put out in the last 5 years.

Re:Gartner again?

[Darinbob]

This was my first thought. I don't think they've ever done anything intelligent in 15 years. That whole "analyst" gig sounds like a scam.

At an old company I was at, Gartner gave us a huge boost in their ratings and ranked us top in the field, and the only thing we had done differently was start a new marketing campaign. The product hadn't changed at all, the customers hadn't changed their opinions. There was rumor that we also paid them off, but I suspect that someone was just doing their "analysis" by reading industry magazines and press releases.

Re:Gartner again?

[NeuralAbyss]

They seem to occupy a bizarre state between "independent" analysts and "for-hire" research consultants that provide, surprisingly enough, the conclusions that the organisation commissioning the study expected in the first place.

Just a way to justify one's interests to management, it seems..

Re:Gartner again?

[Kizeh]

Because they have more street cred than Tolly? (Not saying much.)

Actually, after having done two in-depth in-house reviews of two different technologies for our purchasing, we were amused to find out that in both cases our "short list" ended up looking almost identical to the Gartner "Magic Quadrant." It's also useful in justifying "Why did you pick these products for evaluation" to management. So, used carefully, with common sense, they can be of use in an enterprise environment.

Is anyone really using "virtutual worlds" at work?

[H0p313ss]

Wasn't that just so last year? (And an epic fail?)

Simply ....

[VincenzoRomano]

bullshit!
I would focus on the contents of electronic communication more than the appearance!
Provided that I had one other than the default gray outline.

3 words

[paimin]

totally fucking stupid

slashdot lies

[Necroloth]

I've just been reading through a lot of the comments and with lots of people saying "fuck it, wear whatever you want and I'd quit if anyone told me what to wear" and I wanna call BS.

Do you guys really believe that people would wear whatever they want to work? Just prop up a mohawk, cargo pants and a pufffer jacket and go and work at a big software company, any engineering company, any food company ... actually, do you really believe that you could even pass an interview wearing that?

Get real. You could only do stuff like that if you run your own business and I damn hope you're not hypocritical if you have employees that dress like that. Employees represent the company and having eccentrically dressed people will deter the vast majority of the population... else you're just being an ass trying to make a point but in fact wear 'normal' clothing going to work and not necessarily a suit. Shirts and trousers will get you pretty far.

Re:slashdot lies

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in a big university research departement and yes I can do that !

Re:slashdot lies

[Anonymous Coward]

you might be able to... My supervisor at my last job had a different color hair each week and tons of facial/body piercing. But then again, we also had beer and vodka in the mini fridge and having porn on your computer was more likely than not business related. Its to bad they couldn't keep up on the paychecks.

Re:slashdot lies

[ElectricTurtle]

Apparently you've never been to Seattle or San Francisco. Shortly after I was hired at my last job before I left Seattle my supervisor mentioned that if people came to the interview in a suit and/or tie they were automatically disqualified. This was not a small company either, but one with its own six floor building, separate distribution center, and nation-wide presence with nearly 100 locations. There exist corporate cultures that actually consider suit/tie to be antithetical.

Re:slashdot lies

[Necroloth]

may I ask what the type of business or it's customers were? I may be very naive but I think that those who don't mind interacting with randomly dressed people are a very small percentage.

Re:slashdot lies

[Necroloth]

No offence but I don't think uni research is anything like a corporate environment. You tend not to interact with other departments, customers etc but mostly feed your results/data to your professor etc and if you were to give a presentation to others, they would normally be within your circle of colleagues at work anyway.

Re:slashdot lies

[ElectricTurtle]

Eeeh, if I say too much more, anybody with half a brain and a little effort could solve for x, and I don't want to presume to speak for the company. Dress code was only a small portion of the culture there, which was one of the best I was ever part of, and consequently even after leaving (which I only did because my wife was relocated by her company to the other coast) I am still fiercely loyal. I practically would have taken a bullet for my supervisor there. The only further thing I feel I can say is that it operates in the retail/wholesale space.

Anyway, when it comes to dress code, Seattle really is very different on the whole. Only places like law firms and banks are still formal, any place that doesn't have policy dictated by a national chain is almost always business casual or less.

And yet---!

[KlaymenDK]

...and yet, one of the pioneers, most active and certainly most visible IBM'ers is using an avatar which is a 2.5m tall Predator. Nobody's told him off (maybe because they know what a shoulder gun can do).

Those IBM'ers who are already hopeless "penguins" do of course have Suit avatars. Natch.

Me, I dress in my fave tee, jeans, converses, and five o'clock shadow.

Re:And yet---!

[mdwh2]

Those IBM'ers who are already hopeless "penguins" do of course have Suit avatars.

Aren't they the ones where a meeting in Second Life ends up looking like the Matrix, with millions of Agent Smith clones?

Do any businesses actually use virtual worlds?

[beavmetal]

I don't see the point of using a virtual world when a conference call, webex, or teleconference is just as effective.

I'm familiar with second life and the whole concept is cool, but kinda retarded at the same time.

Answer: Says who?

[Hurricane78]

Seriously, business dress codes are the dumbest thing that ever got to that spineless "monkey see, monkey do" "culture" we call business employee.

Nobody needs it, nobody wants it, and everybody who wears it, looks like he's following the dress code of a Chinese communist movement where everybody has to dress the same.
The worst sign of despair is the "Please hang me right now! I'm just a slave in the big machine of bureaucracy. My life is completely meaningless!" tie. You're practically the walking dead when you wear it. You just don't know it yet.

I'd rather come nude than in a business suit.

Re:Answer: Says who?

[ynohoo]

Within the past two generations we have seen suits go from being the indicator of respectability to a symbol of sleaze, employed by professional liars (politicians and salesmen) to disguise their true nature.

Re:Answer: Says who?

[jaraxle]

I'd rather come nude than in a business suit.

I would too. If anything, Clinton and Lewinsky taught me that it's more difficult than you'd think to get those stains out...

~jaraxle

Why is parent modded troll?

[Viol8]

Parent poster obviously has a lot more experience of real life work than the teenage moderators around here!

Cost

[zaffir]

So these employees will be expected to dress their avatars in a certain way, and the only way to get the "clothes" for their avatars is from the company running the online world. $100 for a suit that doesn't really exist seems like a possibility, if only because companies demand it.

For SL technical breach but "allowed"

[RobertLTux]

In fact most of the lindens have more than one avatar (prelinden avatar and then the linden avatar). If a Company has a Formal Presence In-World then they should have a Storage Area where a person can pick up an "approved" avatar.
Oh btw an AnthroMorph/Feral Avatar can be more professional that a lot of "human" avatars.

Ah, corporate drone world

[Niubi]

Where every ounce of personality must be annihilated and replaced with a grey-faced, grey suit. Is this really the world that people want to live in? And this for computer avatars? Should successful web companies such as ebay and dubli alter their websites to be a dull, monochrome gray to enhance their responsible status? Should everyone be made to wear glasses that automatically make everything a grayer shade of life?. Kind of depressing, that despite my satire and fun poking, this probably will happen. Individualism is not a great thing to happen the higher up in business you go, and the ambitious will follow these diktats should they think it'll help them up the greasy pole. As for me, I'm content to wear my jeans and tshirt and do my work. Doesn't affect it one little bit, let me tell you!

Business with an avatar?

[syousef]

Yeah that'll work. When's the last time you or your company did business via fucking avatar. Video conference MAYBE. Even then if money's involved it'll be in person, with signatures and handshakes. If you're wearing a fucking avatar you're not in business dress period...let alone when it's a slut in a toob top or a shirtless hippy guy.

all businesses ?

[bytesex]

Will virtual burgerflippers also be required to wear a virtual cardboard hat with a logo on it ?

Sure. Just try coming up with a dress code for...

[jeddak]

...my three-mile-wide, neon-pink cephalapod. :)

I Suggest

[twmcneil]

No Furries!

Score one for Scott Adams

[Slightly Askew]

In "The Dilbert Future", Scott Adams predicted this years ago (paraphrasing, as I don't have the book in front of me).

• Your DR must not be visibly aroused
• Your DR must not resemble the CEO in chaps
• Your DR's head and buttocks must be clearly differentiated

Uniforms have many purposes

[Chemisor]

I just don't understand why your generation (well, all right, I suppose my generation (I'm 32) does too) has such an aversion to decent clothing. I, for one, wouldn't be caught dead in shorts or a tshirt. To me, neatness and good grooming is a sign of personal integrity and of intelligence, because a person of intelligence must order his mind to think coherently, and a person of integrity strives to appear what he is, thereby bringing order to the outside as well as the inside. If you appear sloppy, then I must assume that either your mind is a mess, or you want others to think it is. The latter, I suppose, comes in handy when you try to "fit in" with a group that sees stupidity and slatternness as a virtue. It boggles the mind that anyone would try.

Perhaps your aversion to uniforms is precisely due to this tendency of an honest mind to match the inside and the outside. A uniform forces neatness upon you in the area of personal attire, and I would assume that one of the goals of doing so is to encourage neatness and order in other parts of you. Hence, the sloppy monster inside you wails and screams bloody murder. The acquisition of these habits would kill it, and, since you belive him to be an essential part of you, naturally you recoil from the uniform. Perhaps you ought to instead reconsider the values he represents and why they are so precious to you.

I spent my own childhood in the Soviet Union, where schoolchildren were required to wear uniforms. Putting on the uniform meant changing the mindset from recreation to studying, and taking it off meant the reverse, marking a clear separation between school and play. When you were at school you were supposed to learn stuff. You were also supposed to learn how to be part of a team, for unlike in American schools, russian children stayed in a single group of 30 or so, every hour of the school day from the first grade through the last. (Thus encouraging the development of a few really close friendships instead of 200 Facebook acquaintances, but I digress) Since you couldn't take off your clothes at school, they remained a reminder of a specific "mode" of life, much like you are reminded to avoid extraneous code while holding a spinlock.

I might also point out that American private schools also require a uniform, perhaps for similar reasons. And then to point out that private school students and russian children are better at math and the sciences; tasks that require a clearly ordered mind to accomplish. So if I were a boss looking to hire a competent man for an intellectual job, like say, programming, it would certainly seem prudent to look for those who display an ordered appearance without to have a better chance of selecting a candidate with an ordered mind within.

Re:Uniforms have many purposes

[Dr. Hellno]

It's just as easy to look sloppy in a dress shirt and slacks as it is in a t-shirt. In fact, there's a whole lot more that can go wrong: tie too loose, or short, or long, or tight; shirt not tucked in properly at the belt; belt too high, or too low.

Bear in mind that a t-shirt is in no way less clean or neat than a dress shirt. There's some strange prejudice against seeing them as "ordered", but that doesn't indicate the presence of actual disorder.

Re:Uniforms have many purposes

[Chemisor]

> Bear in mind that a t-shirt is in no way less clean or neat than a dress shirt.

And oh look! A RED HERRING!
This is precisely what I'm talking about. An intelligent man does not read the first sentence of an essay and proceed to write an indignant reply before learning the true subject of the rest of them. In case of my remarks, the theme was sloppiness and the typical example of a dirty tshirt and khaki shorts that comprise the attire of a great many men I know was intended to serve as an illustration, not a gospel. And while there are indeed men who think that a dirty flannel shirt (untucked, naturally) is formal attire, they are not nearly as common as their tshirt breathen, in spite of being equally despicable.

> There's some strange prejudice against seeing them as "ordered",

Tshirts are by their nature have less structure, and so conform to the contours of the body. Since most men's bodies, beer bellies and all, are not something worth showing, wearing a tshirt over them speaks of a perversion beyond comprehension. The lovers of ugliness are a true disgrace to humanity, more so even than morons, for while the latter have the excuse of having no mind to speak of, the former are guilty of using theirs to consciously destroy man's positive values.

> but that doesn't indicate the presence of actual disorder.

I'm not going to help you rationalize your tshirt preference. If you have such a disorder, at the very least you should admit its existence before you can be cured.

Re:Bidets

[GargamelSpaceman]

Hmm.. My own shit is in my ass. It would stink if I stuck my nose up in there, but usually, I don't notice it. Although one never knows what germs and beasties one might be infected with, at least not having anyone else's shit in my ass assures me of the fact that if I don't inadvertantly eat any feces, it's biodiversity should not increase. With a bidet, I lose that assurance. A bidet squirts water up onto your asshole washing away any dingleberries. This is good, but then those dingleberries wash down over the water nozzle. The next person squirts some of my dingleberry fecal material up onto their asshole and possibly a minute amount up INSIDE their asshole when they use the bidet. It's that first drop of water from the bidet that may possibly contain shit from the last user that bothers me. It's why I would never use a bidet ever. Sure, you could run it a second before sitting down, and that should clean the nozzle, but that doesn't alleviate the emotional revulsion I feel from having toilet water squirted up my ass. It would be like seeing a plate of shit, and then seeing the shit washed off with soap and hot water so that it sparkles. You know it's sterile, but you still don't want your dinner served off it.

Virtual worlds just got more boring

[erko]

Sheesh, businesses know how to remove the fun from everything.
Now they just have to come up with a more boring word for avatar.

How about this as a definition:

[jbeaupre]

"It's still a cult if the leader hasn't died yet." Arbitrary, but practical. Put's an interesting burden on anyone deciding to start their own religion.

2013?

[quickgold192]

I know at least one consulting firm that already requires its employees to adhere to a dress code while on Second Life. (That dress code happens to be a business suit, and no I'm not joking.)

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

my avatar listens to...

[Anonymous Coward]

Cradle of Filth!

Well All I can say is

[PalmKiller]

BWWAAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Freaking Pointy Haired Dipshits.

In defense of dress codes...

[Radical Moderate]

My organization has been looking to have a presence in Second Life, we have a small island for testing. Just went to a demo, and the presenter's avatar was wearing hip huggers that covered about half her ass. And if you're wondering, yes, Second Life avatars do have butt cracks. I can't really blame these companies for not wanting to be represented by a bunch of Britney Spears clones.

Unless they repair refrigerators, of course.

yeah, and it'll be...

[lie2me]

butt naked

Basic anthropology

[sbjornda]

We're still primates. We still have tribes. If you want to belong to a tribe you have to look and act pretty much like the other members. Only so much deviation is allowed, in any given tribe.

If you want to sell something to someone, you have to look, talk and act like you belong to their tribe. This helps them trust you.

If you want to become a more powerful member of your own tribe, you need to look and talk and act like the more powerful members do, so they will look at you and say, "Hmmm, s/he looks and talks and acts like one of us. Maybe we should let him/her join our exalted ranks."

In other words, one of the keys to climbing the ladder is: Always look and act and communicate like the people one rung up from you. This increases the chances they'll trust you enough to let you in.

It's just anthropology. We're wired that way. No amount of complaining will change that.

--
.nosig

New style wallet,belt,sunglasses,caps.. .HTTP://ww

[Anonymous Coward]

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proposal

[Anonymous Coward]

We bring back high starched ruffs for men and women, long sleeve long skirt dresses or heavy knickers and coats