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Judge Rejects Sheriff's Suit Against Craigslist
jjohn24680 passes along word that a federal judge has thrown out a local sheriff's lawsuit accusing the online classified group Craigslist of facilitating prostitution. We discussed the case when it was filed back in March. Here is the decision (PDF). "As was pretty clear at the time, Craigslist is the service provider and is quite obviously protected by Section 230 immunity. ... Even after all of this was clearly explained to Sheriff Dart, he still insisted that his lawsuit made sense. It looks like the court system, however, does not agree. As expected, the case has been dismissed on Section 230 grounds."
Dart likes his Humble Pie with plenty of Failsauce on top.
The sheriff in question was no doubt trying to just drum up some publicity for himself. Remind me again why he's enforcing laws he clearly doesn't understand?
I'll set up my business in section 230 of the Yankee stadium.
Sorry Mr. Sheriff. If you want to change the laws you too have to go through the proper process, you can't just circumvent the system even though "it feels like it should be that way". Someone should kick his ass out of authority. Anyone with power over the public (such as a Sheriff) who doesn't understand the law, even after explained to him, doesn't deserve to be the one looked at to uphold it.
Even after the meaning of "free" was clearly explained to Stallman, he still insisted that his definition made sense.
The sheriff in question was no doubt trying to just drum up some publicity for himself. Remind me again why he's enforcing laws he clearly doesn't understand?
You don't realize how right you are. From Mr. Dart's Wikipedia page:
In October 2008, Dart made national news when he announced that he was suspending all foreclosure evictions in Cook County. The number of such evictions had increased dramatically since 2006 as a result of the national subprime mortgage crisis. Dart stated that many of the people being evicted were renters who had faithfully paid their rent but had not known that their landlord was in financial trouble. He explained that in many cases, mortgage companies had not fulfilled their obligation to identify tenants in the foreclosed properties, and said, "These mortgage companies only see pieces of paper, not people, and don't care [...] who gets hurt along the way ... We're not going to do their jobs for them anymore. We're just not going to evict innocent tenants. It stops today."
The Illinois Bankers Association was critical of Dart, accusing him of "ignoring his legal responsibilities" and of engaging in "vigilantism".
Dart says that he is enforcing an Illinois state law which requires the banks to determine whether the persons resident at an address are actually the persons to whom the foreclosure notice should be served.
Due largely to these efforts, Time Magazine named Dart one of its 100 most influential people for 2009.
That last sentence will probably have him championing things (or rather trying) for the rest of his life. I have the feeling this ain't the end of the Craigslist shenanigans nor is it the last thing Mr. Dart will overstep his duties on. He's got a J.D. from Loyola University and a Bachelor's Degree in History and General Social Studies from Providence College. What is he doing trying to practice law?
My work here is dung.
He's just creating content for the movie about his life.
Some possible titles:
- The greatest hero who ever lived in the entire world.
- Dumb&Dumber2: Dumbest.
And this is why the Sheriff (aka, a high-ranking thug) is not a lawyer. That actually requires some brain power (although just how much is arguable).
I think The Pirate Bay operates in a different legal jurisdiction...
This is the ideal concept for how the pirate bay should be looked at. Somehow it's not though.
It's nice to see this ruling. Escorts and such have been advertising in local newspaper classified ads for YEARS now and nobody seemed to care. No matter what they do they're NOT going to stop prostitution because at the end of the day it's a "crime" between willing adults. There's no victim to complain to anyone because every person involved is happy if at the end of the day no law enforcement ever shows their face.
In reality though, the truth is that a lot of times strip clubs, brothels, and other such activities are giving kickbacks to SOMEBODY in power, somewhere. I've seen it time and time again. For example strip clubs here are not supposed to feature fully naked dancers and dancers are not supposed to be on the club floor when exposed. Generally they ignore the floor rule, and will just wrap their panties around their wrist when on stage to comply with the first (they're still wearing them, just not in the proper location). Every now and then though they'll get pressured to comply, resulting in the panties staying on and the bouncers literally having to carry the girls on their shoulders from stage to stage so that the girl never touches the floor, until the club owner pays off whoever is pressuring him. Then it's back to business as usual. The same is true for most escort services and such. The older more established services stay there pretty much until the owner decides to get out of the business. New services jump into and out of existence on a monthly basis. Simple reason is that the older services have figured out who they have to pay to be left alone.
My guess is that a lot of this backlash against Craigslist is simply that with everything being done on the Internet it's making it easier for people to get these dealings done without the officials getting their due cut of the cash, and that just doesn't go over well.
"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
Even if his suspension of foreclosures was a stunt to get him publicity, there are still reasonable people (like me) who thought it was the right thing to do.
Why? Because people a huge number of the foreclosures are going forward even though banks themselves can't even produce the mortgage paperwork! Because of all weird financial instruments that helped cause the mortgage crisis (cutting the mortgages up into securities and such) these corporations can't find the original paperwork. I don't know the exact numbers on this, but it's a big percentage.
There are Members of Congress that are saying the same thing: make the companies actually PRODUCE the paperwork! This is how lax the U.S. has become on the financial industry.
So, Dart might be a pompous windbag, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is wrong.
-1, Clueless.
He did exactly the right move in suspending foreclosures, in which he prevented innocent people being kicked out of there homes because of mistakes made by the banks or land lords.
He was enforcing the law, and doing a morally correct act before anyone even knew who he was. I'm not sure why you try to make his actions appear as though they were just for publicity.
I'm not sure how to take his trying to sue craigslist though.
If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
When you say "local sheriff", it makes it sound like he's the sheriff of some small town. In fact, Tom Dart is the sheriff of Cook County, which contains Chicago, is the second most populous county in the U.S, and his department is the second largest in the U.S.
People claiming Dart is drumming up publicity are pretty much correct. Keep in mind, we're talking Chicago here, so consider the history of the political machine here. Dart also refused to evict renters from houses when their landlords lost the mortgage. In a way, this is an honorable thing to do, but the way it played out, everyone read it as once again more publicity for Dart. The Craigslist case just further proves his motives.
Banks and other instutitions have flagrantly ignoredfederal and state laws, and in many cases it appears that they screwed up so badly that no one actually has legal standing to forclose!
I hate reality. Cheesy, flat story characters are so much easier to deal with. Love them or hate them. Real people are heroes today, clueless assholes tomorrow.
What is he doing trying to practice law?
Don't be surprised to see Dart for Congress bumper stickers in the future.
God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
Pimps across the country retitled themselves "Service Providers".
Generally they ignore the floor rule, and will just wrap their panties around their wrist when on stage to comply with the first (they're still wearing them, just not in the proper location). Every now and then though they'll get pressured to comply, resulting in the panties staying on and the bouncers literally having to carry the girls on their shoulders from stage to stage so that the girl never touches the floor
How did I miss being a domain expert in this field?
My favorite quote doesn't fit into 120 characters. Now no one will like me.
That's despite the fact that it is perfectly legal to open-carry in Wisconsin!
The police frequently think anything goes in enforcing the law, even violating "little laws" to enforce "big laws" is ok.
If only we went back to the old American model in which the police not only did not have a monopoly on enforcing the law (any private citizen could arrest you and bring you to a court), but anyone who broke the law while enforcing the law was civilly and criminally liable to their victim.
Yea, that's fine and dandy for people who bought property and are being evicted by shady bank practices, but it completely screws landlords who run their businesses legitimately. The news has even covered it. I understand suspending evictions for people being worked over by the system, but not an across the board suspensions.
Your last link should probably be http://market-ticker.org/archives/1454-Has-A-MERShole-Opened-Up.html
Even if his suspension of foreclosures was a stunt to get him publicity, there are still reasonable people (like me) who thought it was the right thing to do.
I think that eldavojohn's intention was to say that once Dart tasted the drug of national fame for his stance against foreclosure evictions, that he probably became addicted and would continue to seek out his drug by any means possible, craigslist being an example.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
You do know what kind of degree a J.D. is, right?
Right?
It's a frickin' doctorate of law (Juris Doctor).
That said, he has perhaps overstepped his role as Sheriff... but this worked out well in the end. The courts denied his actions, and he brought attention to something he felt was a concern.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
Whenever I see somebody crusading that hard and obsessed against sex my thought it, "Don't let this guy near your kids."
In reality though, the truth is that a lot of times strip clubs, brothels, and other such activities are giving kickbacks to SOMEBODY in power, somewhere.
When I was dating a stripper, it was no surprise to learn that all her bosses were mafia.
You do know what kind of degree a J.D. is, right? Right? It's a frickin' doctorate of law (Juris Doctor). That said, he has perhaps overstepped his role as Sheriff... but this worked out well in the end. The courts denied his actions, and he brought attention to something he felt was a concern.
I'm sorry, when did he pass the BAR exam? And in which state was that? And is he doing this in his free time or are the people being duped into paying for renegade sheriff legal action?
So basically what you're saying here is that we have a new Jack Thompson? Trying to get rid of things he doesn't understand or doesn't like.
Cannot find REALITY.SYS. Universe halted.
Banks sometimes evict people but don't complete the foreclosure process. This does 2 things:
1) keeps the evicted person on the hook for taxes and maintenance, e.g. weed control.
2) keeps the property off of their balance sheet so they do not look insolvent.
I'm supposed to ba happy about the bailouts why?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/23/AR2009062303500.html
http://exurbannation.blogspot.com/2009_03_01_archive.html (references a NYT article)
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
Thanks.
OP (I'm assuming you, since eldavojohn likes to single-post and then any responses are AC -- my apologies if you're not him) posited his academic credentials in an effort to discredit the sheriff's knowledge of the law.
Those academic credentials SUPPORT his knowledge of the law, which is directly opposed to the conclusion OP tried to make. Basically, eldavojohn talked out his ass again...
or it was a particularly clever troll, which is possible, considering how many times he posts a generally-good-enough-for-karma-whoring-post with an obvious error in it.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
If Craigslist is facilitating prostitution, then so are the phone networks, internet, yellow pages directories, and newspapers. If you're going to get an injunction against one form of advertising or contacting unlawful services, you'd damn well better get an injunction against all of them -- but that would demonstrate just how stupid his premise was in the first place.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
If my company advertises prostitution, it doesn't mean that its promoting it... it plain money baby!!!
He's got a J.D. from Loyola University and a Bachelor's Degree in History and General Social Studies from Providence College. What is he doing trying to practice law?
Um, J.D. stands for Juris doctor, AKA 'a law degree'.
Don't tell his prospective emplo....
I I I mean...
Don't tell his current employer that he proved himself foolhardy and an overt rusher and that you shouldn't hir...
I mean..
Don't fire him.
AKA Doctor of Being Unemployed, Crushed by School Debt, But At Least Everyone Hates You
Bitter? Me? Nah...
Everybody who has replied to this thus far needs a -1 Whoosh.
Your sarcasm detectors are offline.
Clearly he's saying that Dart knows what he's doing and isn't a total fuckup.
Even after all of this was clearly explained to Sheriff Daft, he still insisted that his lawsuit made sense.
There, fixed it for you.
http://dilbert.com/2010-12-13
He's got a J.D. from Loyola University and a Bachelor's Degree in History and General Social Studies from Providence College. What is he doing trying to practice law?
Wow.
A degree in History and General Social Studies doesn't indicate that you're aware of history repeating itself, eh?
This is one you won't win. I find it strange that "we" (the common) try to "stop this" and "prevent that."
There is a base Human instinctual desire, combined with thought development from early childhood until adulthood that clearly doesn't change.
Call me an idiot, but it looks to me like he's in the general group that thinks by preventing communications of, and support of activities that some do and some do not like, that he is somehow doing something good... or would that be controlling instead of good? *shrug*
Make alcohol illegal. If you do, no one will quietly produce and sell it. No one will run quiet underground establishments that resemble the saloon. If you make it illegal and enforce that law, people won't talk about it, people stop wanting it, and people hence stop fulfilling that want. ...oh.. wait. History. *slaps self*
FOR THE RECORD, I am not disagreeing with the parent comment. Just using information from it to throw some additional thought out there.
Yea, that's fine and dandy for people who bought property and are being evicted by shady bank practices, but it completely screws landlords who run their businesses legitimately
If they're running their businesses legit, then if they get forclosed on they're going to get proper notice and get the tenants out. Foreclosure proceedings take a long time, the landlord has plenty of time to get the tenants out.
Free Martian Whores!
What does that have to do with legitimate foreclosures? It's like saying "i'm not going to arrest any murderers" because some people get arrested falsely. Open season.
Too bad they signed the mortgage and accepted the bank's cash to allow that to happen....
If only they there existed some sort of due process...someone should invent some sort of due process...
If they're running their businesses legit, then if they get forclosed on they're going to get proper notice and get the tenants out.
Except this wasn't landlord getting foreclosed on. It's landlords trying to evict people who aren't paying rent, and Dart not serving those evictions as well.
> Why? Because people a huge number of the foreclosures are going forward even though banks
> themselves can't even produce the mortgage paperwork!
A friend of mine was recently telling me that he basically hired a lawyer to go over his credit report, and challenge every negative item for documentation. He was telling me that he was quite surprised at how many items they dropped from his record because the creditor didn't have documentation for their claims.
Very sloppy.
-Steve
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
And then there's idiots that I hadda deal with at the collections shop I used to work at. They'd dispute the debt every fucking month, we'd send them copies of the original bills, highlighting their signatures on it. Next month, they'd dispute AGAIN, because a debt under dispute 'cannot go on their credit report.' Thing about it is, once you verify the debt ONCE, they're fair game.
And no, we didn't do unsecured debt. If it came into the shop, it brought its paperwork with it, otherwise we'd cancel & return it to the client and tell them 'Get better documentation, doods!'
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
Oh, and do some basic research before asking questions with easy answers. He's licensed to practice law in Illinois -- he's a member of good standing of the Illinois Bar Association. Prior to running for sheriff, he was actively practicing law.
That's a horribly worded loaded question. You say renegade, I say challenging the law in the courts. Regardless of whether or not you agree with him on the particular issue, this is how the system is *designed* to function.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
Pirate Bay is not in the US, and not subject to US law.
WHOOSH.
The GPs point was that some banks are cheating in the foreclosure process so they can evict the person without actually taking legal ownership of the house away until they get around to it, making the former owner legally responsible for it even after being evicted. That's not even remotely legal.
Even if his suspension of foreclosures was a stunt to get him publicity, there are still reasonable people (like me) who thought it was the right thing to do.
All this proves is that "reasonable people" are willing to knowingly violate the law and trample the rights of citizens when it serves their self-interest or advances their unreasoned beliefs. It's even worse when they validate the actions of others after the fact when that behavior is demonstrably wrong jsut because it "makes them feel good". It's these people that makes "asshats" look appealing in contrast.
Now if you personally have a well thought out belief that is at contretemps with established law, work through legitimate means to change the law and persuade others that yours is a better idea. Public servants like Dart deserve to be in jail for their unlawful behavior; they can be righteous all they want there, away from society.
AKA Doctor of Being Unemployed, Crushed by School Debt, But At Least Everyone Hates You
Bitter? Me? Nah...
I don't hate you, pumpkin.
"All these years believing you're the signified monkey, only to find out you're just a big hunk of nobody cares."
regardless of whether you agree with that goal or not, let's look at the validity of his tactics within the scope of that goal
prostitution happens in a marketplace. the sheriff thought the best thing to do is shut down the marketplace. this doesn't work: a new marketplace springs up somewhere else
the best thing to do is flood the existing marketplace with phony sellers to catch buyers and phony buyers to catch sellers. this will only put a damper on the trade, but it is the maximum dampening effect you can get for the minimum of effort. either way, the existence of a well-recognized dominant marketplace is the enforcer's FRIEND, not something to shut down. craigslist basically hands the sheriff offenders every day, all he has to do is arrange to meet them and arrest them. why does he want to shut that down?
the sheriff just didn't recognize the right tactics
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Can I just ask, aren't most abuses that come in the form of lawsuits worded and represented by lawyers? Accordingly, how does being a lawyer make your lawsuit more worthy?
Amateurs. The correct response to a collection agency is to send them a certified letter disputing the entire amount of the debt, and then requesting them to cease all communications with you pursuant to the Fair Debt Collections Practices Act. Booya, done.
Yup. However, that does not preclude legal action on behalf of the client. It just moves everything from the collection agency to the lawyers.
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
The banks are doing whatever the homeowners allowed them to do when they gave the bank a mortgage. The mortgage defines every right a homeowner is granting the bank. If they don't want to hand over those rights they don't have to sign the mortgage.
Yes, but why don't you start one if you have "service provider immunity". What I mean is that the same kind of law exists in Sweden, but it didn't help TPB even though it seems very similar to this.
Awww, thanks.