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The Software Router As MiFi Killer
An anonymous reader writes "The MiFi Mobile Router has been getting a lot of positive reviews these days, for combining a cellular modem, WiFi radio and battery pack in a portable device. But playing with a beta release of a software based wireless router for Windows 7 has me wondering if there's any future to these dedicated, multi-radio routers. Is the future that every PC should be a router? Or is that a job best left to a cell phone?" I just drove across the country and back with a MiFi (using Verizon's service, which was not zippy but very reliable); it strikes me that being nicely cross-platform and not requiring a laptop with its own cell-network connection is a serious advantage for the MiFi or any similar device.
Is the future that every PC should be a router?
No. Just no.
The reason we want dedicated routers has nothing to do with computers being incapable of serving the same function. It's because we want to isolate functionality to minimize the risk of getting hacked. It's well known that connecting a Windows computer directly to the internet will result in it getting P0wned in almost no time. And *nix computers, while better, can still be vulnerable. And both platforms can become vulnerable when the wrong software is running (anything that listens on a port can be vulnerable).
Basically, NAT routers are the only thing limiting the hordes of zombie WinXP boxes to a reasonable size. We don't want to give people who don't know better the idea that they don't need them.
I mean if you're travelling, you either have something built in, a plug-in card, bluetooth tethering (I find this very convenient), and usb tethering. I've never been in a situation where I need to share internet access while travelling to multiple devices, and while I can see it being a possible need, it doesn't seem to be much more than a niche thing? Also, it's not TOO difficult to share a mobile internet connection provided you know the ins and outs of such things (though yes, this device would make it dead simple).
Maybe someone can enlighten me.
Is the future that every PC should be a router?
Absolutely not. If I wanted to share my Internet connection, I all I'd have to do is not turn on encryption.
Fast Cellular access is the key, cell phone based routers are the obvious solution since most computers lack any sort of cellular modem, and at best can use a dongle to do so. The dongle is a pain in the ass. Using one is often more expensive than sneaking wifi routing software onto a pda phone. Not to mention the question of which cellular carrier do you use so your computer can be locked into it.
Basically, yes, as soon as PCs are able to access cellular networks easily, the cell-phone-turned-router will die. But as long as the cellular networks remain a crapshoot where switching services and protocols is often necessary, why tie more of your devices to them?
I like how this is suddenly news because Windows 7 has a GUI for this and touts it as a feature.
Pretty much every modern OS can act as a router, even previous versions of Windows, without additional software. We don't use PCs as routers because it's wasteful and inconvenient. Think about it for 5 seconds: Why do people use dedicated router rather than using this feature that's been in the OS forever? It's because using a PC as a router is annoying and wasteful, even at home. One machine always needs to be on for the others to get a connection. If that one machine breaks, the whole network goes down. Apply this to the road where power and space are more scarce. Even less convenient.
I just want a fully tunable software radio receiver AND transmitter ala http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Radio
It would be so cool to be able to do ham radio or CB radio with just a computer
Ack, with headlines shouting about Vishing and MiFi, two words I've never heard of, for possibly the first time in my life I feel out of the loop and too old for all these newfangled words, at 22. :-(
My first thought was that MiFi was a form of WiFi for Nintendo Miis, but that can't possibly be right...
There has been software written for Windows Mobile phones that provides this functionality in one package too. I haven't tested it yet, but it is supposedly supported by the HTC Touch Pro 2 that I got last week. It is known to occasionally cause overheating issues for the device though...
The only special thing about the MiFi is that the terminal device, battery, and WiFi router/AP are all in one package.
The W7 functionality is, as you point out, nothing new, it just may be easier to set up.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
The Intel laptop wireless chipsets have implemented this router "feature" for some time now, haven't they? And wasn't there a brouhaha because the router functionality was enabled by default at first?
I find it funny that I'm starting to read and hear about all these Windows 7 innovations - well, they're apparently new to the Windows community anyway. The latest Network World Twisted Pair podcast discussed a great new feature of Windows 7... it's Leopard's "web clip"! Start your copiers, indeed...
#DeleteChrome
Joiku Hotspot.
Every wifi capable (S60 3rd Ed phone models) mobile phone can be a wireless hotspot.
Deleted
Ever since convergence went completely wild, I've been expecting a device that diverges drastically. I expected that eventually, rather than one device that does it all, you would have multiple small devices that each do one thing, but can talk to each other. Part of the convenience of a camera in a phone is that it can send the pictures wirelessly to another person. What if your regular camera could do that? More than a few people would probably go back to the much higher quality discrete camera device if they had that convenience.
Well, hello Eye-Fi.
But the critical component that I have been hoping to see made into a discrete device was the cellular radio itself. If the cellular radio was separate, you could use the same connection for both an audio handset and a PDA. Or not use it if you don't want that functionality. I was expecting it to be based on bluetooth, but wi-fi works just as well. Probably better.
So now I have my MiFi, and it works pretty much as I expected. I don't have a Skype device, but I could get one. But otherwise I have my PDA (iPod Touch), PMP with online marketplace (Zune HD), and camera that can all use the internet. And each device separately does what it does much better than a jack-of-all-trades convergent device possibly could. I can replace one part, say the iPod Touch as a PDA, with an even better device, such as the consumer version of the Zii will hopefully be, whenever I want, while still keeping another device, such as the Zune, that does what it does better than either of those do.
I'm relieved that the MiFi exists and I can escape the whole race to the bottom of convergence.
I used to run FreeSCO on an old P-133 box. Then one day I realized I was using about $50/yr in electricity just so I could have a "free" replacement for a $59.99 router.
If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
There has been software written for Windows Mobile phones that provides this functionality in one package too. I haven't tested it yet, but it is supposedly supported by the HTC Touch Pro 2 that I got last week. It is known to occasionally cause overheating issues for the device though...
I have this software on my ATT Tilt, it works perfectly but as you say it causes the devices to get really hot and drains a lot of power.
no one uses PC's as routers because no one in their right mind would plug a windows box directly into an open Internet connection.
It does have its uses, I have an xp computer sitting next to my tv acting as both a wireless accesspoint for my tv/game consoles as well as giving the tv enhanced internet capabilities (over its generaic youtube access) and i did this for a minor fraction of the cost it would have taken me to get a dedicated access point system working.
Just to have internet access for my DSi or PSP. Mi-Fi gives me world internet access for anything that speaks Wi-Fi and fits very comfortably indeed in any pocket. Battery lasts longer than most laptops, too.
What about in a car pool where a single device can give all the car pool occupants WiFi to work with? They could split the cost just like they do gas.
Or just sharing a connection with any small group, that is the strength - yes the laptop can do this, but this device could share even when no-one had laptops but smaller mobile devices.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
There are actually changes in Windows 7 that help with this. WiFi virtualization was added to the Windows 7 kernel allowing you to run two WiFi connections from the same hardware adapter. So you could put a PC in range of a normal access point and then share the connection by creating an access point on the second virtual adapater. With previous versions of Windows, you would need two hardware adapters, or you would be limited to sharing a LAN connection.
I find it amusing that Verizon is selling this MiFi, then charging you a monthly service fee to use it, since for $30 bucks one time you can load WMWiFiRouter software onto any Windows Mobile device and have it do the same, without paying $50 a month for the MiFi dataplan, OR a $15/month tethering fee (double score! No cable or extra fee), paying $200 for the privilege of lugging around an extra device. Sure I may not be able to take calls and use the Interwebs, but I didn't want to take those calls in the first place.
If only you could. Many cellular modem's have drivers that prevent this basically blocking any network access other than the cellular card.
That aside sharing a connection with overages costing between $100 and $250 per gig and roaming ranging from $1000 to $20,000 per gig seems dangerous at best.
OK, that's cool. Is that currently doable in Linux? Last time I checked, the wireless tools make you put your WLAN adapter in one mode or another, so no simultaneous AP and client. I imagine the hardware necessarily limits you to operating on one channel, but otherwise...cool.
no one in their right mind would plug a windows box directly into an open Internet connection.
There are a lot of people that don't act as though they are in their right minds even without getting technology involved.
"then one day I realized I was using about $50/yr in electricity"
Did you then realize that you can't do math worth a damn?
I tether my laptop to my Android phone via wifi. The advantage is that I don't need to carry a cellular modem for my laptop, have a separate data plan, or swap sim cards (on GSM networks). The fact that someone else can use the connection is an additional bonus. I used to have a separate data plan and 3G modem, and I'd even share this connection via iptables/NAT from my Linux laptop. It worked, yes, but it is much better to just let my phone handle this now.
As for a MiFi, this is different in that you're using a special device, losing the advantage of leveraging your phone hardware, and ultimately pay more. The advantage being that you're not breaking your service agreement, have a carrier-supported solution, and you don't need to root your phone. With all of the limitations of the MiFi, it is not significantly better than using a cellular modem.
Personally, I hope that carriers start to loosen up and allow (wifi) tethering, because this really provides the best of all worlds.
Symbian and WinMo phones already work as WiFi access points. The only reason iPhones, Android, and Blackberry don't is because their corporate masters don't let them.
Why use a simple device that works with an existing configuration when you can spend your time performing complex hacks on all your computers to find a way to patch them together into a vague approximation of the simple device? Because you want internet access to get work done, not a puzzle to solve to inflate your self-regard.
So basically it's asking this: "Does being able to create a WiFi hot spot FROM your laptop replace a method of getting a WiFi hot spot FOR your laptop?"
Seriously? The MiFi (for those that don't know) is a little credit-card sized WiFi router, offered by Verizon and Sprint, that gets its internet connection from the cellular network. So if you want internet and you're not near a network or hot spot, two options are:
Yes, if your primary concern is "how do I share my mobile internet connection with others," there is overlap between "computer as router" and the MiFi. But if you don't have an internet connection yet, the software router doesn't help much, does it?
"The water jug as faucet killer."
Is there something you'd like to share with the class?
Interesting in theory, but in practice this thing is just switching the the card to various networks quickly and hiding the fact its doing so. Given the amount of trouble that exists today with wifi card and AP compatibility i think your just shooting yourself in the foot by trying to switch around inside the connection time out of the AP.
also from the article you linked...
"In Windows 7, you are limited to exactly one virtual adapter."
which means its useless today.
Your old P-133 is probably hosting a 180-200w power supply at max. Consider the actual power use of a machine like this is closer to 30-40w of real power use, and compares a little more favorably with the $60 store router. Granted the dedicated device is lower power, but also weaker. An old P-133 can be maxed out with memory, and have a nice reliable used HD placed in it. Not only does this actually open the OPTION of keeping syslogs (this is not a real option for most net toasters, as most have to send the syslog off to another dedicated server.) You can also do much stronger firewall rules, packet inspection etc, that the net boxes aren't capable of. Even further the net toaster routers seem to be much less secure than say a box running Comixwall or OpenBSD with PF. I would say your current solution is much better, if you have $60 to burn drop a SSD drive in an old PC for a great performing router: 16 GB SSD PATA drives are can be had from newegg for less than $50. Not only better speed, but you can probably kill get away with killing the case fans, and then the CPU fan is the only noise. (on P133 this is pretty quite - IF there is a fan even, and not just a heatsink)
ATTENTION PC does not = Windows PC (personal computer) is great as a router, especially when running OpenBSD, ComixWall, or even Linux or others. You can actaully host the syslog files on the computer, and do neat things like packet inspection, firewall rules, and more.
Or even worse.... I bet as this is a M$ program, it doesn't even really have two separate networks, rather just masks that the network traffic is really visible to both.
madwifi had that same capability 3-4 years ago. I think that capability has been migrated to most Linux wireless drivers with the new mac80211-based wireless stack.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Android supports tethering no problem (wifi & bluetooth). I'm using it right now. 1.3mbit/s over T-mobile.
Now if a service provider wishes to ship an Android phone with root disabled... well, that's not Android's fault is it?
Anyways... Symbian & Winmo are dead.
I'm currently thinking about putting together an Atom 330 based PC for this purpose. It'll use about as much power as a CFL, so no problem leaving it on 24/7. Plus it's plenty powerful enough to do some web browsing and play some music at the same time. Yeah, it'll cost a little more than a router, but it can do a lot more.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
1) Your elecricity cost estimate is high, that $60 router is also going to draw power. You calculated electricity including taxes, but the router without so it's even more expensive. I'd call it 3+ years before you make-up the purchase price... hope it works that long.
2) There's nothing stopping you from underclocking and undervolting that PC until it draws very little power. I bought a 550MHz AMD K6-3 with motherboard on eBay for $20 shipped, and stuck it in an old case, underclocked it to 100MHz (drawing all of 5 watts), running with just one fan powered by the 5V rail, an old compact-flash card for a HDD, running COMPLETELY silent. It's worked perfectly for several years now.
3) While a PC may use more electricity, at least it actually works. How many times a week are you power-cycling your $60 router? Plus, the PC allows installing ANY SOFTWARE YOU COULD POSSIBLY WANT. Being able to use a REAL stateful firewall is worth far more than the difference in power usage.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
ATTENTION: Way to take a joke post wayyyy too seriously.
Personal Computer:
"a microcomputer designed for individual use, as by a person in an office or at home or school, for such applications as word processing, data management, financial analysis, or computer games."
A headless system running purpose built router/firewall distribution no longer meets the definition of a PC. so pfsense on a jetway IPC is not a PC, this is the setup i use btw.
Um... why is this MiFi better then using my phone again, It has all of the features listed in the Summary(battery, both radios)
Next on /. it'll be "Unicorns from Intel magically displace all PC's" or perhaps another annoying post
or perhaps one of a million intentionally badly spelled bot generated emails that ends up in my gmail's spam filter selling "chaep druzz 4 yoou"
Seriously why us this /. material?!
> wouldn't it be a lot simpler to use an ExpressCard or USB dongle to connect to the cellular network?
how is installing verizon's proprietary drivers easier than connecting to wifi?
nigga please . . .
In other news Nerd Rage is a good bypass for the preview button.
(*why us this = why is this, )
Ok. What do you want, a prize?
Comment of the year
This is probably a plant from someone connected with Connectify.
Just about every machine has some way to do NAT. The first time I ever did NAT was via an Amiga under AmigaDOS 3.1.
Why is this discussion worthy?
ooh shock someone kills the wrong thing in a video game.
quick call the president.
Other than perhaps using a PC as a range-extending relay, I can't see the point. If you're in range of a wi-fi network anyway, why share it though a computer?
"Yes, if your primary concern is 'how do I share my mobile internet connection with others,'"
Well, if that's not your primary concern, why bother with a Wifi router?
Because the ExpressCard or USB dongle is Windows only, and you use a Mac or Linux machine.
Or there are x86 Linux drivers, and your Linux laptop is ARM based.
Or your laptop is Windows 64-bit, and the only drivers available are 32-bit.
Or your company's laptop is configured to not let you install device drivers.
Or you only get good cell reception near the window, but the comfortable chair is close to the fireplace.
Or the only way to get cell reception at your cabin in the woods is to attach your MiFi router to a balloon and suspend it 300' in the air.
Or the router may include a firewall, which makes it a little harder for the evil ones to own your machine.
I hate it when I make a joke and I get modded "+5 insightful". Mod the stupid comments "funny", not "insightful", pleas
I'd call it 3+ years before you make-up the purchase price... hope it works that long.
8 years and counting
PC allows installing ANY SOFTWARE YOU COULD POSSIBLY WANT
My wants are pretty modest as far as routers go: send packets where they need to go, and light up a few LEDs to give me some indication when all is not well.
If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
Hmm. ...a MFFY Killer
I read that title as
A "software based wireless router" is going to change everything?! ZOMG! However do they do that? Wait, what? Linux and OSX have been doing this for ... well basically forever?
Who the hell writes these? Much less puts them on the front page of slashdot.
Just to have internet access for my DSi or PSP.
FYI, you can do the same thing with any WM6 cell phone AND you don't pay for the service, assuming you already have a data plan. Do the math!
xda-developers.com
"The Borba"
I like how this is suddenly news because Windows 7 has a GUI for this and touts it as a feature.
Pretty much every modern OS can act as a router, even previous versions of Windows, without additional software.
On the Mac, it is called Internet Sharing. I've shared my Bluetooth Internet connection over WiFi with a friend at work. I've shared my wired Ethernet at home over WiFi on a G4 Cube with a Wii, a laptop, and a tablet. Only powered on when I needed it though. You can bridge any two interfaces you want, but only two AFAIKT; you can't share Ethernet over WiFi and Bluetooth over Firewire all at the same time.
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
From the FAQ: Encryption required ... for my benefit. WTF.
Your version of the question is indeed stupid. But what TFS asks is more like "Does being able to create a WiFi hotspot from your laptop in order to share 3g data access adequately replace a separate MiFi device?" Which is a valid consideration.
Personally I'm leaning toward the MiFi because I might need WiFi (for my no-data-plan wifi-enabled phone, or my friend's no-data-plan laptop, or my gf's crappy-3g-coverage iPhone....) and not want to bring the laptop.
One use I can think of is when you have limited access to a network. My old school would authenticate one laptop per student (by MAC address) on its wifi network. Rather than trying to spoof a MAC address in your iPod Touch or whatever, you could use the PC to serve as an access point for your other wireless devices.
The good thing about MiFi is that it *doesn't* require a PC. I'll tell you, I have a laptop, and it has a 3G card, and it has WiFi, and i can share that out easily, but...
That means I should take out my laptop and turn it on and connect to the 3G every time I want to use the WiFi on my iPod on the train? Or my Skype phone? No, in fact, even for using the computer, it would be more convenient to use MiFi than the built-in Software to dial-up.
My laptop runs Ubuntu. My business partner uses OSX. Both of our machines are configured to automatically connect to 3G as soon as a modem is plugged in. They are also configured to NAT that PPP connection over both Wireless and Ethernet. We use to travel together, and many times share a 3G connection either from his or my laptop. On both systems it only took a few clicks to configure (Ok, Ok, a few clicks on OSX, and some tweaking on Ubuntu, but in either case was hard to configure).
So, how is this news?
WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
With many Indian software engineers in the global software industry, and most of them being Hindu, this should not come as a surprise!
http://picasaweb.google.com/[my username here snipped for privacy]/UcAsTE?authkey=[generated part of the URL here snipped for privacy]#
catch the "caste" in the middle of the URL! "as in, What's ur caste buddy?"!! - "ucAsTE?!!"
https://mail.google.com/mail/?zx=&shva=1#inbox
catch the "shva" (shiva!) in the middle!
Also, the Google "Chrome" browser has "Om" in the middle! Chr"Om"e!
As a side note, "Google" may also be interpreted as "Good-gle", "God-gle"
So much for the company that wants to do "good things for the world"!
It's usually much more than just routing. It's an intelligent firewall, name server, intrusion-detection-system, honeypot, a printing and file server, a p2p client (and perhaps server), a very advanced answering machine that can route your calls trough VoIP and back if needed (very convenient if you want to call someone at home for cheap over the internet, while traveling), a development box (if you're developer), a multimedia device (with remote control, it plays internet radio streams for example), etc, etc, etc. All in nice compartiments, secured against each other.
Ok, that may be just me. But I should publish a disk image for general usage. It only that weren't so much work. (The system obviously is heavily customized for me.)
But it now runs since 2003/4, without any need for a shutdown, except when the hardware fails, (in which case I usually update the kernel too). The same OS survived 3 mainboards, 4 PSUs, 3 CPUs, and 7 hard disks. I did not have to change anything, except for one complete architecture change.
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
Yeah, there are instructions out there that show how to do this with Ubuntu and other Linuxes.
The days of software-only routers are (mostly) over, thank goodness. May vicomsoft rest in peace.
Incidentally links to this particular software router seem to be spamming up the Internet. I've seen it several times just in the past few hours on various sites I use (facebook, linkedin, slashdot, wimaxforum).
Another idea is using the old Wingate software which is still maintained. It is a third party utility, but it might be what one is needing.
This is different from adhoc wifi connections. For example, with wifi device virtualization you can connect to say a secured wifi network with your laptop and then share it with other people who don't normally have access to it. Adhoc+bridged connections have existed and had GUIs even in Windows for ages.
All your base are belong to Wii.
Why would you want a MIFI when there is an application called PdaNet which does exactly the same thing with your smart phone and it work on most of them (iPhone has to be jailbroken). And as far as the software router goes, these kind of applications exist for a long time......
> A properly configured firewall is the real solution.
Uh, read the original post again, you're missing the point. Even if those "NAT routers" aren't real firewalls, they ARE and HAVE BEEN protecting those windows machines from remote network attacks.
So much so that nowadays most attacks on windows are by exploiting application bugs (browser/PDF/flash) or by exploiting user ignorance (install this AV software/Windows Update now!).
Yes in theory an attacker with access to the ISP's adjacent network (directly or via BGP exploits) can get past the NAT device, but in practice that hardly ever happens.
Right...
Deleted
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=538874
On XDA developers, there's a nice little *free* (as in beer) app for WM6.1 / WM6.5 that lets you share your 3G connection as Wifi.
Handy, and no cost.
/me sips his coffee and ponders a new sig...