Slashdot Mirror
1,600 Names Suggested Daily For FBI's Watch List
schwit1 writes with this excerpt from the Washington Post:
"During a 12-month period ended in March this year... the US intelligence community suggested on a daily basis that 1,600 people qualified for the list because they presented a 'reasonable suspicion,' according to data provided to the Senate Judiciary Committee by the FBI in September and made public last week. ... The ever-churning list is said to contain more than 400,000 unique names and over 1 million entries. The committee was told that over that same period, officials asked each day that 600 names be removed and 4,800 records be modified. Fewer than 5 percent of the people on the list are US citizens or legal permanent residents. Nine percent of those on the terrorism list, the FBI said, are also on the government's 'no fly' list."
How do they define "reasonable suspicion"? I couldn't find that information in the article.
Twinstiq, game news
If 9% of the list o' terrorists are also on the no-fly list, that means that the feds are happy with 91% of terrorists being on airplanes.
It only requires a few unscrupulous groups to voluntarily suggest names of innocent people to inflate the list, increasing the likelihood of false-positives on any given search and reducing the likelihood of being matched themselves within a meaningful time frame.
CmdrTaco. What exactly is he commanding?
Good ol' Germany is catching up to you suckers. Back in the day, before my beloved wall was torn down, I loved the Stasi. It made feel secure! I knew how many of my neighbours were working undercover for them, too. It was like totally out of Soviet Russia. <3
The STASI (East German Secret Police) got awesome participation from its citizens when it asked them to help them spy on their fellow citizens.
There is a scary lesson in that.
a socialist (caucasian) Belgian politician got on that list because the immigration officer thought he had too much South American stamps on his passport. So after taking him into a small office, they googled his name and found his articles to be too "left wing" to their taste and he was refused access and said that if he wanted to come to the US he had to apply for a visa. He did just that and of course it was refused. Lately, he took the plane to Brazil (a direct flight), and they had to detour the whole plane for hundreds of miles, because he was on it and they weren't allowed to fly over US territory (the crew told him afterwards) . And of course, there is no way to get off that list.
I'd be more interested in knowing what the average length of time a person remains on the list, and a demographic breakdown. The problem with compiling lists like this is the same as with sex offender registries: Even after people are removed from it (sometimes winding up on it for petty reasons in the first place), they continue to be linked to it. Computers don't forget, and there's always some bureaucrat who wants to keep a list of everyone that's ever been on the list available and searchable. There is a point at which even justice becomes injust.
So what are the numbers, Big Brother?
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
Does the FBI actually have the manpower and /or systems to effectively monitor the activities of 400,000 people? If not, they are are watering down their list and reducing its usefulness.
wow united states are turning more and more like cccp used to be
Cory Doctorow's book Little Brother. Free PDF download from his site: http://craphound.com/littlebrother/
One family friend is a military lawyer; another works in sigint. Two things I learnt:
(1) Since I wrote a bunch of anti-war articles a few years ago, I am at least documented - although nothing much is said, I guess since most of what I co-wrote with my partner was published only under their name.
(2) It's worryingly trivial to obtain a list of recent peers of any particular US IP. IOW, even a routine background check will include a list of regular web sites visited.
What is needed is for any as many as possible to be on such lists: it is only by getting as many people as possible inconvenienced, while making the amount of data too great to focus too hard on harassing any one individual or small group, that such methods lose their efficacy.
less than a hill of beans in relation to the creators' wwwildly popular newclear powered planet/population rescue initiative/mandate, aka 'the big flash'. the lights are coming up all over now.
When you invent something - you get to do what you want with it. Even put mayonnaise on top.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
Can I move to where you live? I'm black, so it goes without saying that mayonaise to me is like garlic to a vampire. If those people in gated communities were really serious about keeping us out they would spray paint their house with the shit.
I am still waiting for the list to be released into the wild. It would prove to be an interesting read. Much like the lists of 'evil' web sites.
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
Dear US Authorities,
I have heard so much about your big list of suspicious people; with so many other people being included I am beginning to feel left out. I'm not a very naughty person but sometimes I wave subversively at CCTV cameras. If it would help, I could also wear a long trenchcoat and shades and carry a briefcase. I've been practicing looking at things through narrowed eyes a lot, so I would probably be quite good at being suspicious.
If you will put me on your special suspicious list, I will return the favour by putting you on my list of suspicious countries. It currently includes every other country in the world, ever - but I'm sure it's still not as long and impressive as your list is.
Love and hugs,
Lemming Mark
Okay let's test the slashdot effect.
monday: everyone reccomend sarah palin for the watch list
tuesday: everyone reccomend Nancy Pelosi
wednesday: Hannity
thursaday: Harry reid
friday: Lieberman.
either we'll slashdot the service or do the nation a favor.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
My son, 12 now, with a middle eastern name but born in the US. We travel a lot and they always flag his name for a second check. Ever since he was a toddler. You would think that after the first or second time, they will somehow amend the records with my name, his mom's name and DOB. But no, we go through the process every time we fly. It is a minor irritant at his age now, but I am very worried about him when he is an adult. We are seriously thinking about changing his name but I am not sure that it will make a difference.
Unfortunately I suspect that the story of all of this, that has happened since 9/11, will one day be a disgusting, cautionary tale about how an open and free society was slowly transitioned into an authoritarian fascist nightmare...I'm not sayuig we're completely there yet, but there is a progression - and once these rights, civiliberties, freedoms (whatever you call them) are taken, they never get given back without a severe upheaval or revolution or some sort. Once the security apparatus gets used to being able to list anyone at will for simply having divergent political or religious views (and we all know that is what is happening), good things do not follow.
Once torture (and the stuff we've heard about, sexual torture of children, people being tortured to death, people being tortured until they should have died but being kept alive only so that so they can be tortured further, people being boiled alive....severe psychological torture...It disgusts me and makes those who practice it no different than the most heinous members of the deathshead SS contingents and those who blindly support it share their shame.
I want my country back - but I fear we're in for some terrible days ahead..I hope I am wrong.
If they don't have a second, smaller list, restricted to say no more than 1,000 names that would actually be likely to be used, then they are idiots.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
There was a series of investigative reporting on this subject on Anderson Cooper's AC360.
Basically, the list is worthless as it doesn't contain enough information to narrow down searches and misspelling or adding a middle name breaks the search.
Don't change his name, next time add a middle name to the booking and see if it works.
Recently, in Vancouver, RCMP officers were publicly challenged for stopping known protesters to the upcoming Olympic winter games and asking them why they were against the games. I don't know the ins and outs of the whole episode but the criticism of the RCMP in the media seemed to centre on their stopping people in public places and questioning the reasons for their political opinions. A news broadcast carried the response from an RCMP public relations officer who used the term "due diligence" in defense of the RCMP's actions. Due diligence as I was schooled in the subject matter had to do only with commercial dealings wherein a party to a contract was expected to have scrutinized the terms of a pending contract to ensure they understood the value they would receive for their part in the contract. It may be that in law the term "due diligence" has a wider meaning, but, I think, the RCMP's use of the term is symptomatic of the use of law suits to resolve many issues in terms of monetary damages and contractual obligations that tacitly put aside principles that should invest more fundamental laws addressing vital issues like freedom of speech. There seems to be developing an adversarial, highly litigious approach to addressing issues that rightly belong to more sober venues.
Law enforcement agencies wield what should be illegal force. Force that necessarily must be used for a variety of reasons, not least of which is the infantile need among a high proportion of people to make the world in their image, but, if we take the core principles of democracy and subject them to remedies that belong in commercial enterprises then, I think, we run the risk of debasing those principles and turning democracy into a commercial venture wherein all principles and actions are arbitrated by monetary awards, and, the duties and responsibilites of persons with extraordinary powers are also simply monetized.
I'm a strong backer of the military and the police, the more so because I believe the current state of affairs places them collectively and individually in conflicts both individual and collective that subject them to more stress than their pay warrants and, perhaps, more stress than can be expected to be suffered without considerable negative consequences, but, I sure, this being /. many will disagree.
ideopath @ play
... if you've been critical of the US government for knowing that terrorists were intending to attack on September 11, 2001. Before 9/11, the FBI received word of possible threats all the time, and there was no way they could possibly pursue all of them. Thus they glossed over the possibility of a terrorist-instigated hijacking of planes and subsequent piloting into buildings. Now the FBI is trying their best to make sure that doesn't happen again, and are keeping a better eye on ALL possible threats with their Watch List. So what's it going to be, folks? You can't have it both ways. Don't complain that they're doing their jobs if that's what you demanded in the first place.
Smartly done, lad.
My mom says I'm cool.
Totally off topic.
You do it too.
I've resorted to spelling throw as through for some damn reason and I can't figure it out.
"There are no facts, only interpretations." --Friedrich Nietzsche.
A more interesting number would be how many of those 400,000 or 1 million, depending on your interpretation, actually committed a terrorist act. or were caught actually planning one.
something that is very important in these uncertain times, no one wants to loose their job. ''Hey Joe - I have a new batch of names for our list''
How *ever* do we intend to qualify everyone in the U.S. populace as a terrorist if we can't even keep up with the rate of population growth?
Slackers!
At this rate, I'll take nearly 5 centuries to burn our current citizenry at the stake. I'm sure we'll have many more people by then...
Fact: Everything I say is fiction.
Aren't considered a possible threat to aviation.
Best Slashdot Co
every one of them. yeah.
Those not on the list should be suspected of manipulating the list
1600 suspected terrorists a day? If even 1% of that was real then we'd be dealing with 58,000 people a year intending to commit terrorist acts a year? Are we suppose to believe that the FBI has managed to stop them all in every case??? It's not that hard to blow a bus up or derail a train, so why aren't they doing it? Oh I know, because it's all bullshit.
The only terrorists I see are in the government and the media. They're the only ones using terror to get us to change our way of life. Ooh, Iran is gonna nuke the world, global warming/cooling is going to put our cities underwater/put us in a deep freeze, swine/bird flu/monkey pox/SARS is going to be the next plague that kills us all, main street will starve to death if we don't give your money to these bankers over here, Islamofascism seeks to establish a dictatorship over the world. Eurasia is our friend, Eastasia is our enemy. Eastasia is our friend, Eurasia is our enemy. It's gone well beyond the little boy who cried wolf at this point and has become more akin to yelling fire in a crowded theater. And in each case, the cry is the same: "We can protect you from all these horrors if only you give us more power. We all have to sacrifice to do what is necessary."
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -- William Pitt
You have, what about 600 Congresmen+Senators, so in about 2 years you could do them all, then start over if the list isnt abolished yet ... LOL
How do i check if my name is on the list?
Awesome :)
STASI and Gestapo actually had the same problem: They were able to acquire huge amounts of data (due to many agents, public co-operation, etc.) but they were nowhere near being able to actually analyze it. They just didn't have the manpower to go through even half their data.
That was before computers. Also, they both had a lot less resources (compared to the population) than CIA+FBI+NSA+...
...to nominate yourself for the watch list because you're lonely? [sniffle] Oh, and just ignore the semtex...that's for something else.
Any one know if there is a way to check if ones name has been put on the list, like a freedom of information act or something ? i had planed to visit usa for a short holiday, something i had already dreaded doing but if i get put on some stupid list i just won't bother
"The inquiries can be opened by individual agents "proactively," meaning on his or her own or in response to a lead about a threat."
"reasonable suspicion" == "because the agent said so".
"Sir, you've been randomly selected for the screening process." my ass!
...the LEGAL ENTITIES?
There is a difference, and in case it flew by you, here it is:
A LEGAL ENTITY is a FICTION. That name entered in block capitals on a FORM is the LEGAL REPRESENTATION of one's SELF. It is an entirely separate and distinct entity, used by corporate entities to enforce STATUTES upon your Living Soul.
A Living Soul is covered under Natural Law. This boils down to two things: DO NO HARM and DO NOT DEPRIVE. Natural Law IS NOT SUPERSEDED by STATUTES. STATUTES are enforced using POLICY and with the application of CORPORATE ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS, also known as POLICE OFFICERS.
THE FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION is a CORPORATE ENTITY. It answers to the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, which in turn answers to BANKS in LONDON. It is these BANKS which make STATUTES, the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT makes and enforces POLICY to impose these statutes upon those FICTIONS which are entered onto FORMS.
Welcome to the New World Corporate Order. You have no natural rights as long as you subscribe to the LIE that CORPORATE STATUTE AND POLICY applies to YOU THE HUMAN BEING.
Operation Guillotine is in effect.
Just change his "official", documented name. Pick something that will be innocuous, or even give him an advantage. You can still call him whatever you want yourselves. (It is a free country, in such minor situations.)
John Smith. Too common?
Quincy Bigbucks III. Too obvious?
George Bush. Too embarrasing?
Obama Bin Hussein. Well, that would probably not help.
Read about how actors and other performers pick a name to give an advantage. There are probably psychological and sociological tricks you can leverage.
Change first and last name. Use a middle name if you want, but probably that is just overkill. I would keep it simple, but powerful.
I predict that in the future everyone will have such an "official" name, not unlike a social security number or brand name, and then a personal name that friends and family use. Probably already done in some sci-fi story.
Geek provides reference in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...
Number of names on terrorist watch list at 400,000, agency says
And how many slashdotters are on the lists? A bunch I bet. First those who criticized Bush were put on the lists, and now those criticizing Obama are being added.
So some of us were put on the lists twice.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Monday: everyone on slashdot recommends all their work collegues
Tuesday: recommend all friends and family
Wednesday: recommend random sample from phonebook
Thursday: everyone who owns a black dog.
Friday: Lieberman.
That way we'll slashdot the service AND do the nation a favor.
The wikipage on the no fly list has an interesting take on false positives. They're people who have the same name as someone on the list. The guy who wrote that apparently can't conceive of the possibility that someone may be on the list for no reason at all, let alone the possibility that the list scores about the same as a list consisting of a random sample of the population.
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/02/17/1824232
I'd like to buy homeland for our 10 million people. http://twitter.com/mahadiga
Quoting for the end of the original Washington Post article:
"In a different vein, the FBI was asked why it is losing new recruits as special agents and support personnel at a time when terrorist investigations are increasing. The FBI responded that failed polygraph tests rather than other factors, such as the length of time for getting security clearances, are the main reason recruits are ending their efforts to join the bureau. In the past year, polygraphs were the cause of roughly 40 percent of special-agent applicants dropping out, the records showed."
http://www.polygraphplace.com/ubb/NonCGI/Forum2/HTML/000093.html
"In the past few weeks, through our national hotline, we have collected hundreds of names of suspected terrorists, and I'm proud to say that most of the calls have come from high school and college students nationwide. In fact, we received over 475 calls alone regarding this man: M'Balz Es-Hari."
Hey he changed his name to Mohammad something or other and became a Muslim... Get 'em!
I mean seriously Cat Stevens? If ever there was anybody that wasn't going to hurt anyone...
Having a "no fly list" may sound like a good idea, just not a particularity well thought out one.
Posting in this thread more than likely gets you on the list.
Dear Mr. Government,
Is it I?