Easing the Job of Family Tech Support?

DarkDevil writes "Ever since I was introduced to computers at a very young age, I've been the resident tech support for a household of 7 users. I've been in a cycle for the last ~8 years where something happens to my parents' computer, I spend a week or two trying to non-destructively fix the problem (and try to explain to the users what caused it and how to avoid it), and then if it's not easily fixed I'll reformat and start from scratch. Most often, the level of infection warrants a reformat, which usually ends up taking even more time to get the computer back to how my parents know how to use it. 4-8 months later, it happens again. Recently, I found ~380 instances of malware and 6 viruses. I only realized something was wrong with their computer after it slowed down the entire network whenever anyone used it. My question for Slashdot is: are there any resources out there that explain computer viruses, malware, adware, and general safe computer practices to non-technical people in an easy-to-digest format? The security flaws in my house are 9, 26, and ~50 years old, with no technical background aside from surfing the internet. Something in video format would be ideal as they are perfectly happy with our current arrangement and so it'll be hard to get them reading pages and pages of technical papers."

Comments

Give Up

[Anonymous Coward]

People use something they don't understand...Or just don't want to know how to...

Re:Give Up

[Captain Splendid]

Mod parent up. You failed at this back when you were at "a young age". What you should have done is fake some sort learning development problem, (eg dyslexia), and saved yourself a lot of hassle.

(No, I couldn't find a link to that PA comic. Somebody else will have to do that.)

Re:Give Up

[eln]

I agree. Family tech support is a no-win situation. I solved the problem by moving 1,000 miles away. If that's not an option, you're left with either saying "no" or committing multiple homicides, whichever seems easiest.

Re:Give Up

[Penguinisto]

I live six states away from my nearest blood relative. Of course, that didn't stop my sister (who lives on the other frickin' coast of the continent) from calling me up, asking me to help her troubleshoot an issue with qmail on one of her webservers (she owns a small webservice company).

She was mildly miffed when her company got invoiced at the 'family rate' ($75/hr) - but at least haven't had any further requests for pro-level help since. :)

Re:Give Up

[oldspewey]

Build a custom firewall that blocks pretty much everything that could even be remotely harmful. Set your MAC as the only exception. Problem solved.

Re:Give Up

[Mister_Stoopid]

Everything you said is true, but what is an average person supposed to do about malware riding on downloaded programs? People like you & I have, through years of internet use, developed a sixth sense for "good" vs "bad" on the internet, but you can't teach an average person how to identify a "bad" download. For them, it pretty much comes down to one of two options: (1)take everything, including the malware, or (2)never download anything, ever. I'm not sure the latter is a realistic option...

Re:Give Up

[Thansal]

If they cannot acknowledge this lack of trustworthiness, there is nothing you can do.

That's the key.
People will talk about locking down the computer, or making them use linux or a thin client, or whatever. But it is too late. Do you honestly think you can convince your parents to use a different system ,when it took them that long to learn how to use the damn current one?

My dad was smart and bought his mother something along the lines of a dumb terminal. It goes on the web, and checks email, and that is it (It might even be running linux!). But his case was easy, this was her first computer.

Really, the answer is: You're boned. If you have tried a few times to explain out to them why they shouldn't open the email that says "I Love You", your cause is lost. These aren't clients/employees, you can't tell them "well, sod off" and quit.

Re:Give Up

[Chapter80]

My usual approach is in the form of an analogy.

"You're driving down the road, and you stop at a traffic light. A man, dressed like a mechanic, approaches your car and says 'I think your car has a problem. Please pop the hood, and let me do a free analysis." Do you let him?"

"You get a package in the mail. You don't recognize the return address. You open it, and inside is a device with a note that says 'want a good laugh? press this button'. Do you press it?"

"A stranger walks up to you on the bus, and says 'My name is Rev. Kwame. I want a reliable person who could assist us
to transfer the sum of Twenty Million Five Hundred Thousand United States Dollars ( $20,500,000 ) into his / her account.This fund resulted by way
of gratification from a contract awarded by us under the budget allocation to my Ministry and this bill has been approved for payment by
the concerned Ministries.' Do you give them your bank account number?"

Etc.

Re:Give Up

[bcmm]

Baby vs. Rhino
And you picked a bad example. Dyslexics tend to be better with computers than the rest of the population. If you're practically illegible when using a pen like I am, you tend to develop fast typing (spellcheckers are pretty cool too).

And dyslexia doesn't stop one's family asking for tech support. Got all but one of them on Linux now though, which helps.

Re:Give Up

[Z34107]

Actually, the wonderful thing about family is that you can tell them to "sod off" and quit.

There are a few points that, for my sanity, I made my more recalcitrant relatives understand:

1. They break their computer. It's weekly non-functioning is entirely their fault. (My relatives like dancing bunnies.)
2. I fix their computers out of goodwill, because they are family. I am not obligated to.

That said, you don't need to "convince" them to move to something different. As you said, that's generally not possible anyways. But, if they want your help, their computer will be locked down afterwards. If that's not acceptable, that's fine; Best Buy will happily take their money.

It sounds harsh, but I have an impractically large family; I tried and cannot be as generous as I'd like with support calls. After their machines are locked down, I don't get any more support calls, and they're (eventually) happier since their computer quit breaking.

Re:Give Up

[twistedsymphony]

you forgot this: http://xkcd.com/627/

Re:Give Up

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not so much a sixth sense as it is keeping skepticism as the default response.

Re:Give Up

[value_added]

Reasonable and useful analogies. However ...

"You're driving down the road, and you stop at a traffic light. A man, dressed like a mechanic, approaches your car and says 'I think your car has a problem. Please pop the hood, and let me do a free analysis." Do you let him?"

In a GUI centric world, the average user doesn't understand the source or meaning of error messages, warnings, or confirmation dialogs. They're just another window that pops up on what they believe to be an "appliance". It isn't the window they're interested in, and not knowing what to do with it, they just want it to go away.

"You get a package in the mail. You don't recognize the return address. You open it, and inside is a device with a note that says 'want a good laugh? press this button'. Do you press it?"

A package in the mail has all it's shipping information clearly printed on the outside. With email, the information is in the headers, most all of which are routinely hidden (what is visible is often useless or suspect). The average user has no idea headers exist, and will reject any prodding that they learn how to read them, replying that they clutter up their screen (like viewing file extensions).

Moreover, they certainly don't want to know about MIME structures. Attachments? If it's like a package in the mail, how to know what it is if you don't open it?

"A stranger walks up to you on the bus, and says 'My name is Rev. Kwame. I want a reliable person who could assist us to transfer the sum of ... Do you give them your bank account number?"

An example that's more "real world" to the average user. Regrettably, in the real world, people (especially older folks) do fall prey to scams or otherwise obvious fraud.

Re:Give Up

[NotBornYesterday]

Don't listen to those who tell you to give up or make it unpleasant for family to turn to you for help. If you are at least a halfway decent person, chances are you got that way because your parents didn't give up on you when you needed help and education. Time to pay back the favor. I'd guess that re-educating them on computer use may help things, but will not fix them. My suggestions:

Be prepared.

• Don't do a complete re-install every time. Do a full, fresh install once, patch it, apply anti virus/malware/spyware software, and install applications that they want. Once in a known-good state, back up the system. (1)
• Be proactive and do periodic maintenance. Every month or so, check that their system is clean and fully patched and do another backup. Never overwrite your first full backup.
• If you are not familiar with a live-cd version of linux, start learning. As long as the problem isn't the hardware, having a bootable linux cd as a rescue disk is often my first step in un-borking a friend/family member's PC.
• Give them accounts with limited privileges.

When re-imaging a system:

• Boot to a live cd, back up any data (pictures, email folders, etc) might be recently changed and still wanted.
• Wipe out the hard drive completely. If your parents' system is chronically infested, there is a distinct chance that very nasty content has found its way onto that drive and could be found in a forensic examination. Use the "wipe" utility, or the "dd" utility to make sure you have a squeaky clean slate to work on.
• Restore the patched OS from your last known-good backup, reinstall any apps not previously backed up, and restore the user data.

Doing all that will take a lot of time, but can mostly run without a babysitter.

If their computer has enough power to make it worthwhile, you could also set up a VM machine for them to run in. Start with a known-good OS image, create a VM from it, clone the VM, and let them run the clone. Erase the clone when it gets buggy, re-clone the original, patch it, and off they go again.

(1) - There are a number of different ways to do backups with little or no further hardware investment. If there is a network available with more than one computer attached, I might load one system with cheap disk and back up to that. Otherwise, I'd get an external drive with a USB connection and dump my backups to that as needed. Or you can get a USB key and back up to that, although that won't give you much room for incremental backups. Or back up to DVD+R, although restoring from DVD might not be convenient on a system with only 1 CD/DVD drive if you are running from a live cd.

Re:Give Up

[KGBear]

I actually blogged about this, and I don't blog that much. In short, I realized that Windows is thought to be user-friendly and the common denominator everybody uses and understands, when in practice every Windows user who is not a technically inclined person tends to have some relative (or an IT guy in corporations) who does the "hard" stuff for them. My conclusion was, if we all flat out refuse doing it, MS will be done and over it very fast.

Re:Give Up

[tomhudson]

im going to have to agree. I'm dyslexic and am working on my Ph.D in Computer Science. Also, everyone in my house is using Linux now too since I refused to support Windows any longer. There hasn't been a single problem since. Dyslexics Untie!

All you dyslexic linux worshipers - linux is the work of Santa, not Dog!

Re:Give Up

[Arthur Grumbine]

As requested, here it is: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/05/07/

Now brought to you with the absolute latest in hyperlink technology!
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/05/07
It's click-licious!!

Re:Give Up

[cayenne8]

". Immediately blaming Windows and suggesting a 'nuke it from orbit' option like switching OS's? Rubbish. The problem is in human behavior, not in the operating system."

True, but 9 times out of ten, it is easier and faster to change the OS than the human's behavior.

Re:Give Up

[saintlupus]

Congratulations! You are the first person in the history of Slashdot to type "MAC" and not mean it as a borderline-illiterate abbreviation for "Macintosh". Excellent work.

Re:Give Up

[jimfrost]

Immediately blaming Windows and suggesting a 'nuke it from orbit' option like switching OS's? Rubbish. The problem is in human behavior, not in the operating system.

Changing their behavior could make their use of Windows safer, but speaking from practical experience every time I have switched a problem user to a Mac (which in some cases I did at my own expense) the support time fell to essentially zero after a short adjustment period. Importantly, this has always happened. Changing the OS fixed the problem without fixing the user.

Theoretically the Mac (and Linux) can have similar malware problems to Windows, and there is proof-of-concept malware out there. Practically, though, it just isn't the case. I suspect that the security model -- which is much better than even Vista/Win7 when you get into the details -- has a lot to do with that. The claims that it's all about market share are wishful thinking; it's about ease of entry. It's very, very easy to subvert Windows ... and very difficult for Microsoft to fix this because a large amount of software depends on the ability to do things that should really not be allowed (like, say, injecting threads into other programs and using VirtualProtect to make code pages writeable -- with those capabilities you will never make a secure system). As long as it's much easier to subvert Windows there's not much point in going after the Mac.

But it goes beyond malware. Certain Windows features, such as the Registry, are hideously overcomplex and unreliable. They should have been tossed years ago -- and since everyone manages registry settings via APIs this could be done with excellent backwards compatibility (consider how easy it was for Apple to switch the format for Prefs in Snow Leopard). When something messes up the registry, all too common in my experience, there is little choice but to burn it down and rebuild from scratch. (Thank God for Acronis or I'd go insane from the reinstalls.)

If you want a system that doesn't require a lot of admin time I have to say that you can pick pretty much anything other than Windows and do well. It will be easier to set up, easier to back up, easier to fix if something goes wrong, and the software will be considerably less expensive (everyone else packages useful software in-the-box).

Of course, there can be overriding concerns that force the use of Windows ... and you take your lumps if that's the case.

Re:Give Up

[Shaper of Myths]

I have family scattered to the four winds and my method for maintaining their systems uses the following:

Hamachi (set up to run as a service) - separate networks for various arms of the family
UltraVNC (also running as a service) - so I can connect remotely if I need to
AVG/Microsoft Security Essentials - basic antivirus
Firefox w/Adblock Plus & Web of Trust
Routers set up to use OpenDNS with custom filters (depending on their needs)
Disabling/removing Internet Explorer if at all possible (this usually involves 5 minutes of explaining that the blue E stands for Evil)...=)

With all of the above running the only thing I usually end up fixing is the casual settings-based things or dealing with the occasional hardware failure...YMMV of course...=)

Re:Give Up

[KGBear]

"A stranger walks up to you on the bus, and says 'My name is Rev. Kwame. I want a reliable person who could assist us to transfer the sum of ... Do you give them your bank account number?"

An example that's more "real world" to the average user. Regrettably, in the real world, people (especially older folks) do fall prey to scams or otherwise obvious fraud.

No kidding. I still shudder when I remember what happened years ago to my aunt, who is over 70. I came to her house to visit and found a man in his 30s sitting in the living room drinking coffee. My aunt says "you remember so-and-so, I met him on the way to the grocery store and asked him in. Fancy that, he's now an antiques dealer and may be interested in buying some of my stuff." Well, this was NOT who she thought it was. It was a total stranger who realized she had mistaken him for somebody else and decided to take advantage of the situation. Now my aunt is a retired jeweler and "her stuff", some of which was exposed in the coffee table, consists of unique pieces and precious stones that she kept for sentimental reasons.

I didn't want to scare her by exposing the impostor, so I asked to have some coffee too. When she left I told the guy I knew what was going on and if he didn't want me to call the cops immediately he would show me his ID and, as soon as aunt was back, make an excuse and leave. Fortunately he was not a violent criminal, just a lowlife who saw an opportunity to scam an old lady. So he left and aunt never figured out what had happened.

When I read about old people giving thousands of $$ to Nigerian schemers, it reminds me of this story.

Re:Give Up

[Xest]

I actually have to agree, although I'd argue part the issue is that the person asking the question doesn't have a massively high level of technical competence if it takes them so long to solve these sorts of problem which compounds the issue.

I had the same problem with my Dad, and although it didn't take long to fix each time, it was annoying because having spent all day fixing stupid IT problems back then at work, the last thing I wanted to do when I got home was exactly the same thing.

The real solution is summed up in the parents title "Give up". I told him that it was the last time I'm going to fix it and he'd have to take it to PC World who'd charge him probably £50 or more if he wanted it done after that. I explained every time that he was getting the problems because he was clicking stupid things or opening attachments he wasn't expecting or giving his e-mail address out to any web form that asked, yet only when under threat of having to pay to get the problem fixed did this actually sink in with him, because since then, he's never had a piece of Malware again.

The more you help these people, the less reason they have to pay attention and not be stupid. Force them to think for themselves or they'll simply never bother to and you'll be stuck supporting them forever.

MS SteadyState

[Anonymous Coward]

Try MS SteadyState

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/sharedaccess/default.mspx

Re:MS SteadyState

[Penguinisto]

You know? It's pretty damned sad that OS stability and security has to be offered as a separate frickin' package to the OS itself.

Re:MS SteadyState

[BESTouff]

No. Try Ubuntu.

Re:MS SteadyState

[commodore64_love]

"You're the shithead that broke it. You fix it, or you pay Best Buy to fix it, or you pay me to fix it. Those are your choices."

As you can tell, after ten years of this, I'm fed up with trying to support my idiot family.
I'm tired of giving-up my weekends doing what amounts to my fulltime job - for free.

Re:MS SteadyState

[Sylver Dragon]

And if it was bundled MS would end up being sued by Faronics for abusing their monopoly position, the EU would sanction MS until they removed it, and everyone would complain about how evil MS is for trying to take over another sector of the computer business.

Of the two options, I like the unbundled, doesn't bloat my OS further, option.

Re:MS SteadyState

[jeoeoeoeorb]

Try MS SteadyState

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/sharedaccess/default.mspx

and better yet: in addition to just using SteadyState on the whole disk, make regedits to keep 'Documents and Settings' on a separate partition where SteaedyState is off so the users can actually save something to their hard drive that won't be lost on a reboot, which IMHO is much more useful.

Re:MS SteadyState

[denis-The-menace]

The reason it's like that is because developers are too lazy to test with a regular user account.

Re:MS SteadyState

[Machtyn]

My solution to malware: throw combofix at it
My solution to reinstalls: Do it once, then use Partimage Is Not Ghost to create an image. Then re-image in 10 minutes when needed.

Re:MS SteadyState

[snspdaarf]

Well, the first time I refer to my mother as "shithead" will most likely be the last time I ever do anything.

Re:MS SteadyState

[Facegarden]

No. Try Ubuntu.

Well, that is true, as long as they just want things Ubuntu does out of the box. For virus resistance, Linux rocks. I've had a hell of a time getting other features figured out with linux though.

I spent nearly every night of a two week span trying to get audio working properly on my HTPC setup (well, the first few days was video) with Ubuntu 9.04, and finally gave up.

Installed Windows 7, and it worked right away, I kid you not.

I am DAMN good with computers, and that all just baffled me. I seriously lost HOURS and hours of sleep for two weeks trying to figure it out.

It really turned me off of Linux. I've dabbled with it for years and I love some of the power it has for low level stuff, but man, just trying to get audio working on a surround setup over HDMI with *some* 2 channel audio clips and some 4, 5, or 6 channel clips was hell in a way I've NEVER had with Windows.

Anyway, i realize this article is about viruses and the users want simple functionality like web browsing that Linux would probably be fine for, but I feel like some people here would just recommend it by default as soon as they see the headline, and honestly, Ubuntu is really not the best answer.

I'm not sure what is though. I support our office of windows PCs and McAffee does a decent job of protecting us from viruses, but eventually I do have to go in an fix things.
-Taylor

Re:MS SteadyState

[secretcurse]

No kidding, she'll stop bringing nachos and mountain dew to the basement.

here's where we get to hear someone spew

[Anonymous Coward]

get them all macs

Re:here's where we get to hear someone spew

[ColoBikerDude]

That's what I did, and have been stress free for years. :)

Re:here's where we get to hear someone spew

[TheRaven64]

Or just get yourself a Mac and then claim you don't understand 'that Windows thing'.

Re:here's where we get to hear someone spew

[coopaq]

Same here. Please mod parent up. Its the damn truth!

Unsure what all the hating of Apple hardware is on /. lately.
Solid Unix based OS that your parents would never know about. Google developers use them.
It's actually not about being hip. It's about getting work done.

Re:here's where we get to hear someone spew

[newell98]

Worked for me :) "Windows? No clue -- haven't used it in a decade."

Re:here's where we get to hear someone spew

[InsaneProcessor]

My neighbor did that and now he doesn't have any maintenance issues but he is broke.

Re:here's where we get to hear someone spew

[InlawBiker]

I got my wife a Mac and the tech support nearly stopped. The biggest benefit has been lack of viruses. Otherwise she didn't care one way or another. For the rest of my family and friends, I just help them. Sometimes it takes me a while to help them, but I fit them in eventually. Why wouldn't I? If I need help fixing my car, borrowing a tool or watching my kids I have people to call. It all comes around.

Re:here's where we get to hear someone spew

[sootman]

Yes, we will hear that... BECAUSE IT'S TRUE. Not ONE serious widespread virus in the wild IN THE EIGHT+ YEAR HISTORY of the operating system. The only reason I have to qualify that statement AT ALL is because yes, there are a couple trojans. But NOTHING like Windows. There are NOT a million drive-by downloads, self-spreading worms, or a bunch of malware-infested crappy freeware apps like Windows has.

Is it because it's a better OS? Smaller market share? Lazy virus writers that's can't be bothered to learn to use XCode? WHO CARES!!! The fact is it's NOT a problem right now. Maybe it will be someday. I'll worry about it then. In the meantime, I'm enjoying my near-DECADE of peaceful, pleasant, safe computing.* If you can afford it, it's a great way to go.

Note: Linux is also very good in this regard. But the parent was talking about Macs.

* I, along with plenty of other readers here, can, and have, used Windows boxes without viruses for years. But this thread isn't about what's POSSIBLE for someone who is smart and cares--it's about what DOES HAPPEN to users who AREN'T and DON'T.

Re:here's where we get to hear someone spew

[Stele]

I had to sell my black turtleneck sweater to pay for my Mac. Oh the irony!

Re:here's where we get to hear someone spew

[v1]

Even if you don't like, macs, get them a mac anyway. Regardless of how well windows or linux or whatnot works for you, you're not buying it for you so quit making the choice on what works for you and not for them. Recommend something that will be easy for them to use without frustrations, as unbreakable as possible, and require as little maintenance as possible. Never forget who will be using the computer, and that it either (1) needs to be maintenance free, (2) they need to be able to maintain it - really, or (3) YOU get to be 24/7 support until they throw it through a window.

For the average computer noob, a mac is by far the easiest to work with, safest, and lowest maintenance. My mom (definite noob) bought a pc, had a horrible time with it, against my advice bought another pc, had an even worse time with it, and finally said I've had it I'm getting a mac. Hated it the first week because it was unfamiliar. Now she just raves about it and it's been 99% troublefree. On the couple occasions there was a minor problem, VNC remoted in and had it fixed in under 5 minutes. That's how family computer support should work.

If they refuse to buy what you recommend they get, (mac or otherwise) and keep coming to you for help, tell them flat out I can't support this, get what I told you to get and I will guarantee you a good experience and good help, and remind them of how easy the problem would be to fix (or that it would never have happened in the first place) if they'd have listened to you. Make sure they fully comprehend that you will NOT provide ANY support if they ignore your advice. Too many times I hear "but I thought you were the computer expert and would help me!". No. Not with that I won't, you are on your own.

That's what I did when she was shopping for her second pc, and that's why her third machine was a mac. With her windows machines she was spending several hundred dollars twice a year to have someone fix her computer (and twice losing everything) before it finally sunk in.

Re:here's where we get to hear someone spew

[York the Mysterious]

I'm also baffled by all this /. hatred for Macs lately. I went to LinuxCon recently in Portland and there were only 2 kinds of computers there Thinkpads running Windows or Linux and Macs. About 1/2 the computers at the conference were Macs. You had key Linux figures rockin Macs running OS X. Get them a Mac. You won't spend 4 hours on the phone trying to explain how to get a decent Flash plugin loaded or how they can sync their iPod correctly. While I'm here as a longtime PC tech how is it that you have to reformat the box the majority of the time? I did university helpdesk for several years where you get to see the very worst that a person can do a computer (freshmen guys like porn sites) and formatting was rarely required. You need to get better at cleaning things up.

Re:here's where we get to hear someone spew

[JWSmythe]

    I still help some people who are distant. Echogent's EchoVNC is a wonderful tool. I schedule people's virus scans to run at boot time, reboot, and then tell them to call me if there are any problems. Usually I don't get the call back. Usually the reboot will fix their problem, but in case it was a virus, that'll be fixed too by the time it comes back up. Come on, what other problems can a Windows user possibly have? :)

Install Ubuntu

[HalifaxRage]

> no technical background aside from surfing the internet Sounds like a perfect audience for an OS with fewer security flaws.

Re:Install Ubuntu

[Corporate Troll]

... and if it has to be Windows for some strange reason. Give them Limited User accounts. You'll be the sole Admin (and you won't use it yourself... just User for day to day tasks) and because of that you'll have to approve or disapprove all software that has to be installed.

I have this modus operandi with my family and it works very well. Technically, you have to see a family as a small business operation where you are the IT guy.

Re:Install Ubuntu

[Scared Rabbit]

I agree. I run on Linux for my own personal use these days (though I do still have to boot into windows for a couple of Windows applications for my work), but my family is die hard windows only. I've recently started converting them to limited user accounts as I format their systems to repair the terrible damage they've done to them. My father, who's been using computers for around 25 years now, is the only real holdout I have who refuses to use a limited user account. The only problems you might run into is a lot of windows applications insist that they need administrator access to run properly, so be prepared for an onslaught of dealing with this. It's especially bad if your users are on something like Windows XP, where it's not as easy to elevate the privileges temporarily. For instance, my mother uses a loan processing/origination software for her work called Calyx Point. In XP it does not run on a limited user account by default without messing with the registry and permissions of the directories. Same deal with a lot of games as well. When I setup my nephews PC I put him on a limited user account on his windows xp system, and when he wanted to start playing Diablo II, I had to do some searching to figure out just what I had to change to let it run on a limited user account. I haven't had these limited user systems up long enough to really see a noticeable difference in if the systems get as fouled up, so it will be interesting to see. I did use all my normal security settings and programs on top of the limited user accounts. Hopefully this will keep my family from trashing their computers twice a year. I'd suggest trying the same thing. Of course if they don't have to have windows, by all means stick them on something like Ubuntu, just be prepared for all of the "Why can't I see the dancing bunnies?!" questions you'll get heh.

Re:Install Ubuntu

[EdIII]

Technical solutions always fail when applied to a Social problem. That problem lies directly with the people themselves and their attitudes. They see any changes *THEY* have to make as a failure on *YOUR* part. You just can't explain why Windows sucks so much and why they should expend the effort to change to a better operating system. Try explaining that to an executive. They mad the decision to use Windows. It is your job to make it happen regardless of the consequences and how much work it is on your part.

At this point I see only 2 reasons to stay with MS (There may be more, feel free to add)

1) Games. This is still a consideration, although it seems things are getting better with the ability to emulate them and use them in virtual systems.

2) Legacy business apps. Sometimes you just can't get them to run under Linux.

There is a solution though, and a technical one at that:

1) Virtual Machines. Maintain a common virtual machine in which you control the updates and installed software. Make everyone use the virtual images and disallow any changes to the machines. A reboot will take you back to a clean machine.

2) A file server for all the virtual machines. Set the My documents directory on all the virtual machines to the file server. This way you even have a common space where family members can exchange files.

This way everyone gets to use Windows and you don't have to hear any complaints. Since the virtual machines are always clean on a reboot, the only thing you have to worry about is the data on the file server. That is one place though and should be a lot easier to manage.

Re:Install Ubuntu

[dargaud]

no technical background aside from surfing the internet. Sounds like a perfect audience for an OS with fewer security flaws.

In the same situation, let me relate my story: Over at my parents' for the WE almost a year ago I had yet again to reinstall the whole shebang after a hardware improvement was 'refused' by XP. After a day and a half installing XP, downloading SPs and updates, downloading all apps, configuring them, etc, it crashed during the XP3 install. Wouldn't boot. I had 2 hours left.

As an experiment and a last minute move, I installed Kubuntu. 10 minutes for the install, 20 minutes to configure custom icons on the desktop links to firefox, kmail, dolphin, Xsane and a SD card image transfer script. I didn't even show them the result, just as an experiment. And I left. They called only once after 2 weeks: "Yeah it works fine, but we don't have skype anymore", which I promptly remotely installed. I consider this experiment a great success.

On the other hand, in order to escape Linux, my sister bought a Mac.

Buy them a Mac

[rjstanford]

Seriously. I had similar issues and now have both my parents converted over to being happy Apple users. My support time has dropped to a truly negligible amount, and they're happier as well. It may sound facetious, but prevention works far better than education when those concerned have no interest in learning.

Re:Buy them a Mac

[Dynedain]

I completely agree. I did the exact same thing.

The most beautiful part? When I was convincing them to pick up a Mini to replace their dying PC, my dad's first question was (I kid you not): "But will it run Firefox and OpenOffice?"

I almost cried.

And if I do need to give them support? 99% of the time I can just have them fire up iChat and share their desktop with me. Quick and easy for them, and doesn't require messing with opening ports in any firewalls or NATs.

Related question

[MyLongNickName]

I keep sticking a knife into my eye every three months. Can anyone provide detail instructions on how I can do this without causing so much pain?

Sometimes giving an answer to the asked question isn't appropriate. Sometimes you have to tell the asker that they are looking at it all wrong.

Re:Related question

[jank1887]

after 6 months you may not be looking at it at all.

An interesting resource

[RhapsodyGuru]

http://www.howstuffworks.com/virus.htm That should give them an idea. It also includes a video about trojan horses. :)

Correct User Access

[jeffy210]

I've found the best thing is to treat them like a corporation. Make sure their accounts are only user level, and either hold on to the Administrator password or make sure they know the real reason to use it. Done that with a few family friends I do work for and the amount of trouble i've had has dropped drastically.

Re:Correct User Access

[anom]

Mod parent up; this is the only way to do this. I give my family a basic user account, and then furthermore go through their registry and then deny all write permissions to the "Run" sections of the registry so nothing can install itself in their user account. If absolutely necessary, give them an admin account to be used only for installing things (I gave it to my little brother and not my mom and this arrangement worked quite well).

Re:Correct User Access

[emm-tee]

I've found the best thing is to treat them like a corporation. Make sure their accounts are only user level, and either hold on to the Administrator password or make sure they know the real reason to use it. Done that with a few family friends I do work for and the amount of trouble i've had has dropped drastically.

Absolutely, I did this for my brother's machine, compared to my parents machine it's remained extremely tidy and worry free!

The only issue is Firefox updating. On Windows XP, Firefox cannot update itself when running in a non-admin account. (Bugzilla:407875) Probably means my brother is running a months-old Firefox..

Makes me wonder if Internet Explorer would actually be safer for him, at least it would get updated automatically.

Re:Correct User Access

[Z34107]

Can you give a brief overview of how to remove write access to particular parts of the registry on a per-user (or per-group) basis?

I'm typing this on Vista Business; XP Home and Vista Home Premium might not have these same features.

To lock down a part of the registry:

1. Open the registry editor. (Start -> Run -> Regedt32)
2. Navigate to the key you want to lock down.
3. Right-click on it and select permissions. You can set them by user or group the same way you set permissions on folders.

Group Policy is also a great tool - gpedit.msc is powerful. If you're running a gimped version (XP Home/Vista Home Premium) most of its options can be directly set in the registry with some Googling.

The butterfly Parable

[Martin Spamer]

An insight into Mentoring & coaching

One day a man finds a cocoon for a butterfly with a small opening, he sits and watches the butterfly for several hours as it struggled to force its body through the little hole. Then it seemed to stop making any progress. It appeared stuck.

The man decided to help the butterfly and with a pair of scissors he cut open the cocoon. The butterfly emerges easily, but something was strange. The butterfly had a swollen body and shrivelled wings. The man watched the butterfly expecting it to take on its correct proportions. But nothing changed.

The butterfly stayed the same. It was never able to fly. In his kindness and haste the man did not realise that the butterfly's struggle to get through the small opening of the cocoon is nature's way of forcing fluid from the body of the butterfly into its wings so that it would be ready for flight.

Like the sapling which grows strong from being buffeted by the wind, in life we all need to struggle sometimes to make us strong.

When we coach others it is helpful to recognize when people need to do things for themselves.

Re:The butterfly Parable

[Hatta]

It has nothing to do with evolution. Plant tissues that experience pressures (say from bending in the wind) release hormones that make the tissue stronger, to better withstand that pressure.

Re:The butterfly Parable

[argStyopa]

So you're saying that the next time Mom asks for tech support, he should bind her up in duct tape, leaving a little hole and saying "fight your way out Mom! It will do you good!"

While amusing, I don't think that would really solve her or his problems.

Re:The butterfly Parable

[theskipper]

Dude, don't leave us hanging...

So what happened to the butterfly? Was it like Forest Gump and it went on to meet presidents and stuff?

Re:The butterfly Parable

[Jawn98685]

Dear mods,
How is this "informative"? Unless you are a creationist or subscribe to the wholly un-scientific "intelligent design theory", there is no explanation other than evolution for a plant's having developed the remarkable ability to trigger a re-engineering of it's structure through a chemical feedback loop.

Re:The butterfly Parable

[SydShamino]

It has nothing to do with evolution. Plant tissues that experience pressures (say from bending in the wind) release hormones that make the tissue stronger, to better withstand that pressure.

Well, it has something to do with evolution. Plants that can create and use this hormone would tend to more often live to maturity, compared to competing plants lacking it. That would make them more likely to produce offspring.

Only every 8 months? Lucky.

[GreatDrok]

I have systematically made all my family members get Macs over the years and this has reduced requirements for my support services to near to nothing. I have tried a few on Linux and that helped but they tended to be the most technically literate. Others who insisted that Windows was all they could use got XP with non-administrator accounts and I would remote desktop in as needed. That worked pretty well but not as well as a Mac and that person (my wife's 92 year old grandmother) is about to get a Mac mini.

I can't understand why you have people who only want to do basic tasks with anything other than an non-admin account? Even on a Mac I reserve the admin rights for myself.

You can't teach people who don't want to learn

[celest]

In my experience, it is not an issue of easy-to-digest material, and explanations that they understand. It's a hard mental block. I've been in the same cycle for 10+ years, and my parents have said, flat out, they they "just can't learn". I've tried written, step-by-step instructions; I've tried demonstrating; I've tried tutorials. It's not the information or how it is presented. It's a mental block about learning new things.

"Why can't it just work?", and the fact that it doesn't is put on my shoulders as the "tech" generation. And that's that.

What really gets me angry is that they are helpless to do anything in their daily lives without their computer, and blame me for that fact (Cause *I* created all malware and put it on their computer, clearly), while simultaneously ridiculing my choice of career as worthless, because "technology is not important". The irony is lost on them. Completely.

The war you are facing is a cultural one, not a technical, or information/communication one. It's one better asked to a psychologist than Slashdot. Best of luck.

Re:You can't teach people who don't want to learn

[Hatta]

parents have said, flat out, they they "just can't learn".

Proper response: If you can't learn, I can't help. Sorry.

Re:You can't teach people who don't want to learn

[Jazz-Masta]

I agree. My long-time girlfriend is a veterinarian and always makes fun of my career choice when I am "on-call" or have an "emergency."

Obviously her on-calls, and emergencies deal with life-or-death situation (of animals...) and mine deals with thousands, and possible hundreds of thousands ($$) in lost productivity, revenue, etc.

Whenever I even mention the $$ argument as a way to back up my claim as my job is important - I get the "saving lives" is more important. One of our good friends is a doctor and uses the "save lives vs. save useless lives" argument with her...funny actually. The only reason why she did vet school instead of med school (truth be known vet school is more difficult to get into) is because she likes animals better than people.

Anyway, back to the story, whenever her computer screws up, I make it a point to note that I'm saving its life. It gets her all riled up, stating she'll just buy a new computer - to which I reply I'll simply buy a new dog when mine gets hurt - or even a new girlfriend when mine is broken.

It's this back and forth that makes me wonder if we'll ever get or stay married.

Re:You can't teach people who don't want to learn

[Anonymous Coward]

PROTIP: If your girlfriend ridicules your career/life choice, she's not marriage material.

Re:You can't teach people who don't want to learn

[JerryLove]

Anyway, back to the story, whenever her computer screws up, I make it a point to note that I'm saving its life. It gets her all riled up, stating she'll just buy a new computer - to which I reply I'll simply buy a new dog when mine gets hurt - or even a new girlfriend when mine is broken.

So how comfortable is that couch?

Re:You can't teach people who don't want to learn

[AMuse]

Sounds like you both enjoy poking fun at each other and bickering about inconsequential things. Assuming this doesn't rise to the level of genuine arguments (like couch guy below) I say it sounds like a normal and healthy relationship. Just thought you might appreciate the thought after all the other comments soon to follow.

(5 year wedding anniversary 2 weeks ago, goin' on 9 years together, bicker like it's been 80)

You have the control, so use it!

[donaggie03]

It sounds like you have all the control here, so simply lock down those computers. Install a decent anti-virus, firewall, and script blockers. Install a decent web browser and delete the IE icon on the desktop. Ensure all these and the OS are able to update themselves automatically. Install the programs your family uses. Then create a non-admin account for them and do not give them the admin password. That's what I've been doing and the only problems I've had to deal with in the last few years were a hard drive crash and some minor issues. If they need to install a new program or need the admin password for any reason, they have to go through me to get it done.

Re:You have the control, so use it!

[pz]

It sounds like you have all the control here, so simply lock down those computers. Install a decent anti-virus, firewall, and script blockers. Install a decent web browser and delete the IE icon on the desktop. Ensure all these and the OS are able to update themselves automatically. Install the programs your family uses. Then create a non-admin account for them and do not give them the admin password. That's what I've been doing and the only problems I've had to deal with in the last few years were a hard drive crash and some minor issues. If they need to install a new program or need the admin password for any reason, they have to go through me to get it done.

Inevitably, something else bad will happen (an unrecognized virus will get through), and you'll have to re-install the system. So, once everything has been set up, including installing all of the tools mentioned above, then, checkpoint the system to an external drive that's physically compatible with the primary disk in the system. Next time things crap out, copy the disk image back.

Also, keep the system in one disk / partition, and user data on another. When you have to restore the system, it's easier to retain user data unharmed.

Re:You have the control, so use it!

[metamechanical]

Parent makes a good point - you DO have control. Have you considered making their system into a VM host? It doesn't matter what you put underneath it - Linux, Windows, whatever - just make sure that it's completely tightened down. Then, when they screw up their computer *AGAIN*, all it takes is for you to stop by for a visit, back up any critical files, replace their current VM with a clean backup that you made months ago after installing some of the software they use, and letting them have at it? They don't want to learn, so why not make it easy for yourself?

Re:You have the control, so use it!

[JATMON]

Have you considered making their system into a VM host?

This is exactly what I did with my son. I installed vmplayer, created a VM and locked everything down so that the only internet access that he has is via the VM. The one difference from the parent is that I do not back up and restore any files, that is his problem. When he screws up the current VM, I just remove it and drop in a copy of the original VM. I am done within a half hour. You should have seen my son's face the first time that he screwed up the VM. He could not believe that I just blew away the VM with all his data on it. He learned very quickly after that to keep backups of everything that he wants to keep.

Make them pay

[TrippTDF]

Your post says a lot about your family dynamics... there is a cycle going on here where they use the computer willy-nilly, and then when it gets screwed up, they know that you will fix it for free. What you need to do is make them pay for your services, so there are some stakes behind them asking you to fix it. That will probably curb their behavior when it comes to installing every toolbar known to man.

There is probably one major offender, and you could probably do some detective work to figure out who that person is if you tried.

Re:Make them pay

[Proteus]

Family helps Family for free. It's called being related, not being retarded. I'm pretty sure your parents spent more raising your arrogant little behind than you could ever repay by doing the occasional reformat.

There's "helping", and then there's enabling. For example, I need to deal with a reformat/re-install about once a year for my mother. No biggy: she does pretty well, but just can't keep up with new threats, and simply isn't perfect. That's what family is for.

On the other hand, I refuse to help one of my cousins anymore, because he refused to follow my basic advice on being safe - he insists on using IE and Outlook Express, he disables his AV to "make installs go faster", he declines AV updates, he refuses to run without admin rights, etc.. If I keep bailing him out for free, I'm not helping anymore.

See, you can't eat your cake and still have it. If you really value me as family, you'll respect my skills and my advice, and you'll show it by trying to make it as unnecessary as possible for me to have to help you. If you refuse to do anything to make my life easier, you show that you don't respect my skills, so why should I waste them on you?

The last time I had this problem...

[orsty3001]

I had an old man that had trouble using computers, always getting viruses and what not. I installed Ubuntu to head off a lot of these problem but he refused to use it. He wouldn't even let it boot all the way up. He saw the splash screen and just turned it off. Next thing I know I got a request to appear in court in the mail and had to defend my actions to a judge that was just as ignorant of computers. I actually lost the law suit but was able to get the court to agree that my punishment was going to be to set the machine back like it was. In my book that's not a loss. It's what I wanted to do from the start if he didn't like it. After that I refuse to do anything for anyone that isn't paying me. No more favors, if any friends, neighbors or family want their computers fixed they can take it to a shop and pay to have it fixed. Something a lot of computer techs need to learn to do. When someone asks of you can fix their problem recite, "I really don't know that much about computers." I say this in the mirror from time to time.

Re:The last time I had this problem...

[kylegordon]

Wait... so, you installed Ubuntu for someone and left them to use it with no discussion. It would appear that you never let him see it boot before handing it over, and never discussed the differences. And, as you say, he refused to use it.

I assume this level of casual computer fixing is reserved for family members, yet you say he took you to court. If your family are taking you to court, I think you have other things to worry about than the computers. If he wasn't a family member, why the hell were you fixing it for free and/or not discussing/explaining the solution?

Oblig. XKCD

[Kadagan AU]

Give them all this

Re:Oblig. XKCD

[metamechanical]

I did this for my younger sister a few days ago, after about 1.5 hrs of trying to diagnose why her laptop's mic wouldn't work with Skype (doing this remotely with someone uncooperative, when you've never used Vista before, is a pain). After I gave up I sent that to her, and explained that it was nearly literally the process I was following (and that I wasn't actually omniscient about computers), she just brushed me off, and told me that it couldn't be true! How are you supposed to get something across to people who not only don't care, but think you're lying??

Re:Oblig. XKCD

[doug]

Actually, I did give it to my Mom. She didn't get it.

Re:Oblig. XKCD

[Sparky McGruff]

Just thought I'd note that this is absolutely, positively the wrong thing to do if the problem is malware and viruses.

Get a Mac

[Jaysyn]

I got my mom a iMac 5 years ago & have maybe spend a total of 7 hours working on it since then. Two of those were upgrading the RAM & two more were upgrading OSX.

I had never even touched OSX until we opened that iMac up. I had no problems setting it up & she has had no problems using or maintaining it.

Re:Get a Mac

[fahrvergnugen]

This. My 60-year-old father can tell the make and model of any car manufactured before the catalytic converter, just by hearing the sound of an engine. As a career veterinarian with 30+ years of experience and an interest in staying abreast, he is intimately familiar with the latest in small animal medicine. But when it comes to anything with transistors, he knows only the basics. He's always found them frustrating and irritating, and only started using email about 6 years ago when forced into it by an extended vacation my mother took alone. He only got a cell phone 2 years ago. I used to spend hours each month helping him maintain his slow-because-he-bought-a-P4-with-SDRAM Windows computer.

After being fed up with years of parental support, I convinced him with much prodding this past spring that instead of an HP, he should spend a bit more to buy a refurbished aluminum iMac with a full extended warranty and a Time Capsule. I was done with limited Windows profiles, spyware,Firefox with IE skins and changed icons, and all the rest. The Mac was a great decision. He's in love with it, and my Mom is now plotting her own mac purchase.

I spent the largest part of the two hours of setup copying files via thumb drive, configuring his Safari Top Sites page, and getting Skype turned on so he can talk to my brother in Italy. Haven't really thought about it since, but after years as a reluctant computer user, he's blossomed with the Mac. The iPod he never used to use is suddenly full of podcasts and music, and we'll talk about the Writer's Almanac show a couple of times a week. His digital camera no longer stores all of his photos for viewing on the little screen, and he doesn't go to Walgreen's to get help make prints anymore. - instead, they're in iPhoto with face tags, organized into events, and he uses his own inkjet with photo paper now. He never has to futz with the mic or camera when he's doing a video call with my siblings. He's an avid skier, so we put the snow reports for his season ticket resorts on his Dashboard, as well as the weather reports and clocks for various places around the world where we have family.

This is turning into a Mac ad, and I didn't mean that. Clearly all of these things can be done with Windows/Linux. My point is that the right combination of technology, in my case an iMac, managed to excite my father into an interest in my own passions, while simultaneously opening up all the really cool parts of the internet to him. And in the process, I no longer have to do any tech support for him. I don't have to worry about backups, I don't have to worry about viruses, I don't have to worry about email attachments, I don't have to worry about "How do I..." phone calls.

Instead, we have more things to talk about, and he's able to finally use these fantastic tools from which I've made my career. So: if the technology your family is using doesn't work for them, whether they're currently on Apple, Linux, or Microsoft OS's, try a different one. It's made all the difference for me.

Caveat: I really can't recommend buying a computer without a user-serviceable hard disk unless you also buy the extended warranty. Apple wants $450 to replace the 320GB hard disk on an out-of-warranty iMac with another 320GB. I found out the hard way on my own iMac. To replace the disk in an iMac you have to remove the glass and the screen. Get dust between those two during the repair, and it's game over. This is the rare case where the warranty is money well spent.

Re:just install linux the next time you reformat

[zach_the_lizard]

This is what I did for my grandpa. I set it up so that I can SSH into his box wherever I happen to live, which is good for installing updates, software he doesn't have, troubleshooting, etc. I could, in theory, have him do a dist-upgrade too (this is Ubuntu), but I haven't ever tried that via long distance. Whenever I visit, if a new LTS version of Ubuntu is out, I install that on there (preserving his home partition), configure it again, and carry on for the next few years or so.

Lock it down

[IP_Troll]

Create a limited access user profile for non-tech savvy family members. Lock it down as much as possible. Or use the guest account feature that clears the profile when the user logs out.

Using an operating system other than windows is a good idea also, but unrealistic that it will result in a better situation for the tech support family member. Your virus issues will be replaced with compatibility complaints. If the family doesn't want to learn how to avoid viruses they don't want to learn a new operating system.

A friend in your situation ...

[drissel]

A friend in your situation put his parents and grandparents on live CD's. Trouble over. One grandfather objected because he wanted to save emails and a local store advertised "Recovery Services." My friend referred the old man to the store. With Gmail and Google Docs, web browsers, email correspondents and light-duty word processors don't need local storage. Viruses can't infect a CD Rom.

The 9-year-old is the key

[BenEnglishAtHome]

Sounds like it's time to transition your support job to the next generation.

Lessons learned from too many years in that role

[onyxruby]

I've learned a lot of lessons from filling that role for too many years. Here they are:

• Make a folder for all their base install sources so there is easy access to the source.
• Teach them to download everything to a single source on the data drive to make scanning and root cause easier.
• Make sure they have their cab files on their system.
• When you rebuild their system seperate out their OS and Data on two seperate drives.
• Once seperated you can then image their system and have a back of a known good state for that computer. Make sure they also have a backup.
• Better yet, teach them how to perform their own images.
• Ensure they one antivirus scanner and another malware scanner - not from the same company.
• Set up automated downloads and scans.
• Insist that they use firefox with noscript - show them how this makes browsing the web fun again without all the clutter.
• Set up for automatic patches.

Their cost is a second hard drive that they pay for, typically this is well under $100. It's more work up front on this, but teaching them basic safe browsing, automating what they don't want to deal with and have an image (and the ability to freely blow away the boot drive) are all things that will save you time in spades in the long run. I've significantly reduced how often I have to perform the friends and family computer work this way, and they feel better knowing that they have regained some level of control over their computer.

Run windows in a virtual machine on Linux

[moz25]

How about running Windows in a virtual machine (e.g. virtualbox.org) in Linux? You just have to configure it so that the VM starts in fullscreen mode automatically.

So, once installed to a state that you know is OK, you can simply make a snapshot image. If need be, it's easy to revert to that snapshot, or any future snapshots.

The only issue is going to be data. Well, you can store that on a separate partition and make daily/weekly backups using cron jobs. Now that 1TB and 1.5TB harddrives are standard, it should be no problem at all to have a liberal backup scheme.

Then, if there's some issue, you can simply SSH into the machine and revert to a working image and the machine will be reset to an acceptable state again.

Re:Simple economics:

[gnasher719]

Well I wouldn't want to charge my parents anything, even if I do get calls once a month about computer problems and have to walk them through every single step. Main reason being, what if my parents decided to send a bill my way for room and board and financial help they've given me, it could take me years to pay that off! It's a pretty sweet deal in my opinion.

What you can do is to write a bill, charging a reasonable rate like $60 per started hour including your journey time (if it is not at your home), and at the end give them a 100% rebate. Make sure that they see the real cost. Then take them to the nearest Apple Store. Show the bill to the salesperson and ask "what can we get for three times this amount". Obviously make sure that your bill is high enough to get them a nice suitable Mac.

Re:Only every 8 months? Lucky.

[IrrepressibleMonkey]

I took a similar route and convinced my father, mother and both my brothers to buy Apple Macs.
And before anyone starts bleating "but Macs can have problems too..." I'll tell you what I tell my family now when they call me with problems: "So what? I don't support Macs."

Buy a Mac and Time Capsule

[SuperKendall]

How much is your time worth, in any unit you care to name? If the answer is any amount greater than zero, then convincing friends and family to buy a Mac helps so, so much... I have several people I used to help all the time, and now I get a question maybe once a year. Not to mention that any frustration you are saving yourself, you are triply saving your friends and family who try to figure things out before they call you.

But I would add in addition to this advice, to buy a TimeCapsule for them as well. Yes it's a little more expensive than an access point and external disk combined. But refer back to my first point, the bit about time and so on? If they have a TimeCapsule set up they WILL USE IT, because it is on ALL THE TIME. If you try to make anyone connect an external drive they WILL NOT DO IT, and that means WHEN a drive failure occurs you will have to come help try and recover data. If the have a Time Capsule they can bring the system and TC into an Apple store and get the data back even if they can't figure out how themselves (which they probably will figure out).

Simple solutions

[GuardianLurker]

My parent are ~ 70 years old, and their computers are probably healthier than mine.

How?

I knew they wouldn't understand all the trade-offs involved in Internet security, so I set them up with a basic secure setup (auto-updates from MS, anti-virus, anti-spyware), and gave them 3 simple rules:

1) When you aren't using the computer - turn it off. Bad guys can't get in, or do anything to the computer, if it's not on.

2) Stay in the "well-lit" areas of the Internet. By that I mean corporate and reputable public sites - as a general rule of thumb, if they've heard about it on the news, its "well-lit".

3) Only download something when *YOU* want it, not when a site says you need it. And anytime a site says you need their special application to view video, listen to audio, or read something, they LIE.

I've also worked over the years to transition them off IE and Outlook, but that was just really icing - the basic setup and the security rules did *ALL* the heavy lifting.

Now, every so often, I'll have to do basic maintenace - renew their AV, make sure they've got all the updates, defrag their drives, etc. - but it's all relatively painless stuff. And I've never had to rebuild their computer.

It's true, in spades.

[El Jynx]

My mom switched to Mac. Result: I only have to really do something semi-serious (i.e. more than 30 mins work) once every 2 years. My (mentally handicapped!) brother uses a Mac. Aside from an occasional correction of his mail settings via ARD Admin I'm hassle-free.

My brother and his g/f still use Windows. I just spent four f***ing days reinstalling Windows XP because Vista figured Autocad was either already installed, couldn't be installed, or shouldn't be installed. I told them it was the last time and I would only support them if they bought Macs. Microsoft is a group of clueless arrogant monopolists as far as I'm concerned. Apple is also arrogant but at least they make something decent. Vista scared me into fits and out of family tech support for life unless they pay me $ 75,- an hour. That got their attention, I can tell you. After some "but what will we do then?" comments of disbelief I explained my motivations to them and told them the truth: Windows is a bloated platform with no vision designed by a company that is run more by lawyers than by true genius and I've given up on them completely. Sorry if this is a bit rantish (I suppose it is a rant) but I really want to underline it for you in simple terms: M$ is your problem.

I think Apple has several ups over Windows:
- it's designed to be learned by playing with it
- it gets out of your way instead of in your face
- it has a much, much, much clearer structure; people can find the things / settings they need more easily, and with less actions. Try setting up a dual monitor and occasionally attaching e.g. a beamer. It only costs 1 or 2 clicks after the 5 whole clicks you need to configure it the first time around. Try doing that in Windows and you're at least 20 clicks farther, and of course something or other b0rks along the way every f***ing time
- supporting it remotely is pretty much hassle-free aside from opening a port here and there (or else you could use something like Teamviewer)
- if you ever DO need to reinstall, the migration assistant will keep your settings whole, and you can drag/drop the software from the old installation; it's MUCH easier than reinstalling everything from scratch.

If you're in doubt, download it and stuff it into a VM and play with it. See how long it takes you to get mail etc set up. Now don't get me wrong - no OS is perfect, and OSX has its idiosyncrasies like any other - but it has a lot less of them, and any issues are usually fairly well documented. Just stay away from newest releases until the 10.x.1 update is out, at the least, and you will do fine.

Re:Reinstall is NEVER required...

[Applekid]

If you think your only option is to re-install the OS, odds are you don't know how to fix the problem and do it in a timely fashion.

So, how do YOU deal with a corrupted registry, chains upon chains of hooked and rehooked system calls, apps without proper uninstallers, bad-neighbor applications that overwrite other apps' dlls, and rootkits? Are you really spending the time to one-at-a-time manually uninstall and replace bad associations with known-good ones?

To me, OS reinstall and repatch is more of a time saving device. Sure, I can spend hours on hours chasing dragons all over the place for hours on end to fix things and keep their precious desktop wallpaper and they could just click that Awesome Cute Videos bookmark and reinstall the same damn malware the very next day. I personally rather set an xml file and leave an unattended install on while catching a movie or otherwise getting on with my life.

I know if family ever got snippety with me about why I reinstall all the time, I'd probably throw the computer back right at them and wish them good luck.

We've had this discussion around the cooler.

[bill_kress]

I work as a programmer and we have this conversation a lot.

In the last few years I've noticed a serious trend. We're now mostly 35-40 and we are tired of working on home computers.

The solution? Get a mac.

EVERYONE who has one agrees (Don't believe me, ask around). If you want to know, go ask a PC user how he supports his family's computers--the story will generally be like yours, then go ask a mac user how he supports his family's computers--If he's been using one long enough it's going to be by getting them to buy macs, then not having to mess with them any more.

It really is THAT easy. Many mac users that I work with just tell their families that they don't understand the new-fangled windows even though they work with it every day (few programmers are lucky enough to be able to use macs at work).

For yourself--get a mac and install a windows partition for gaming, or if you are into high-performance gaming buy two computers... It's worth it.

By the way, this is from someone who occasionally tried macs before intel and couldn't stand them (and still would not use a pre-intel mac). The dual-core and OSX are essential for usability because the Mac UI tends to be pretty chunky with just one CPU.

I've owned a computer since 1978. I run a Linux server at home, and have 2 windows computers I NEVER turn on at home. I use windows all the time at work. I've built almost every computer I've owned except my 2 macs. I'll probably never buy another non-mac (Might convert the mac mini to a linux server eventually.

Re:just install linux the next time you reformat

[old_unicorn]

I've triad all of the windows access control etc, and the problem is that too many applications, (games mostly) assume that the user is Administrator. I've done the same as the previous poster, installed Ubuntu, with Firefox, Thunderbird, Open Office etc my wife and children are fine. The boys want to play some Windows games, so I've put VirtualBox on, loaded their version of XP which used to be in that computer. That lets me keep a virgin installation of XP with the basic games, so whenever they mess it up in future I can recover it in 5 mins - though they will lose their game saves. My wife needs to run a .net application which I have not put on to VirtualBox, but I've no reason to think it won't work. Early days yet, but this seems to be working a treat.

It's very sad

[DerekLyons]

I find it sad an disturbing that both the OP, and many of the posters, only want to force the family to do one thing or another so he doesn't have to deal with them anymore.
 
I spent many hours patiently fixing my dad-in-laws computer when he'd managed, somehow, to mess it up again. Didn't bother me much as it gave me a chance to visit with him and mom.
 
They're both gone now - and I'd give much to hear the phone ring and Dad say "son, I've managed to mess it up again, why don't you come over and fix it, and then we'll have dinner and catch the ball game".

Get a Mac

[goombah99]

No I'm not trying to be smug. I simply refuse to maintain windows computers. Linux is not an option for most people. Ergo, a mac. Someday perhaps macs will be rife with trojans too. I'm not living in a dream where macs are perfect. But the very problem raised here is solved by a mac. So why fart around. Is your time worth nothing? if not these folks can cough up $599 for a mac mini. You don't have to use a mac, cause you are not the one with the problem. But they do.

Stop "helping"!

[BLKMGK]

For 8 years they have relied upon you to solve their issues and apparently not learned anything! they are "non-technical" but have been using computers this entire time? I'm sorry but after that many years of using the damned thing if they haven't learned anything it's because you're always there to help them - stop helping. The excuse that they're non-technical doesn't fly after that length of time IMO. If they are so disinterested in the device but rely on it so heavily then there's a serious disconnect.

They aren't learning anything because they don't have to. If you always had someone to wipe your ass you probably would never have learned but somewhere along the way your parents decided it was time you did it yourself and TaDah YOU learned. Think of it as AA for computers - they have to hit rock bottom before they will get off their butts and bother to learn anything. A once in awhile help session is one thing but not to the extent that has been laid out here. Do they even bother to sit and watch while you fix their stuff? Or do they get to go off and do other things all the while whining that they want their computer fixed? Make them feel pain, make them sit and watch silently if you work on the computer for them and answer questions if you want. You're being taken advantage of and it;s not helping anyone except maybe you a little as you find out ever more innovative ways to solve their issues.

Here's another thought - stop trying to fix their computer. Simply reformat the thing, patch it, and walk away. Let them have to go through the pain of fixing it up the way they like it - maybe with some ramifications they will begin to get a clue and understand the cause\effect that's going on here....

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Won't work - ask the Bank of Arnerica

[tomhudson]

Read the subject line carefully - "Bank of Arnerica" - it isn't spelled "B a n k [space] o f [space] A m e r i c a" either in the subject or on this line.

1. Scammers will always find a way.
2. Older people and crappy monitors don't mix well.
3. If something "looks" familiar, people see what they expect, not what's really there. Look at how you thought it was "Bank of America."

It isn't a favor unless someone asks for it.

[westlake]

I installed Ubuntu to head off a lot of these problem but he refused to use it.

It doesn't matter if it's friend, family or client.

It doesn't matter if your are working for a cold beer and a plate of pretzels or charging twice the going rate for your "professional services."

You never make fundamental changes without asking.

Without informed consent.

If I ask you to secure and return my Windows system -
I expect you to secure and return my Windows system - not to replace it with whatever Linux distro and Open Source apps that suit your fancy.

"What part of "No" didn't you understand?" That is as sound a way for a judge to approach a suit for breach of contract as it is when he considers a charge of rape.

 

Screw Linux, give them WoW

[Moraelin]

My approach, actually, is that if they have time to be surfing for cutesy screensavers on www.i-pwn-u.ru and follow links to www.xploits-r-us.ro and to re-confirm their ebay password 10 times a day, that's the problem: they have time. Forget addressing the symptoms, go for the root problem.

Me? I gave my parents WoW. Sure, it's just about as hard as giving them Linux, so you have to hit them when they're down. It's for their own good. I got mom when she was too sick to do anything else, and she contaminated dad from there. If that fails, mention that she can talk to you on group chat. It's funny what moms are prepared to do for a son as a captive audience :P

Fair warning, it takes some time investment. Be prepared to answer questions like, I swear to FSM I'm not making it up, "HOW DO I SWIM UP?? WHAT CAMERA? I DON'T HAVE A CAMERA TO ROTATE!! NO, I LOOKED IN ALL THE BAGS AND I DON'T HAVE A CAMERA!!! WHERE DO I BUY A CAMERA?" or, again, true to FSM quote, "HOW DO I GET OUT OF THIS CAVE?? NO, I DON'T SEE YOU! I CAN ONLY SEE THE TOP OF MY HEAD AND MAYBE 3 FT IN FRONT AND TO THE SIDES!!"

I can see you're dying to ask, "but couldn't I just teach them to use Linux, or heck at least Mozilla in the same time?" Not so fast, grasshopper. This time they'll actually be willing to learn. In the same month you can teach them to play WoW like a pro, or you can be running in circles around "how do I start IE? This paypal password site says I need IE and Javascript" and "why does this taxform.xls.exe attachment not start when I click it???" if you gave them Linux.

Fast forward about a year, and they don't even have time to sleep. No, really, they're only recently up to 5 hours sleep a night. Surf for cutesy IE toolbars and install crap? Good grief, they don't even have time to shop for groceries outside of wednesday mornings. I think they even lost some weight, what with the occasional wednesday when the servers are back on from 5 AM.

Ah, life is good.

'Course, this might cost them a few years off the life expectancy, but it's you or them, really. The hours to support their computers would have probably added up to the same number of years of your own life. Ask yourself this, really: do you want to spend that time supporting them or grinding your own epic gear? Thought so.

Re:And I'm linux!

[tomhudson]

If they don't want to learn to use linux, tell them to get a mac and be done with it.

if they don't want to learn linux, why do you think they would want to learn using a mac? (for anyone with years of windows experience ingrained, there IS a learning curve either way)

I've noticed that humans are illogical, Captain. They won't take the time to learn something that's free and can save them money, but they'll take the time to learn something that they spent money on and will continue to cost them money. Even tribbles act more logically.

The way to get around this

[geekoid]

is to make them pay a professional. after a few hundred dollars they will get better.

My family is smart enough not to need this sort of infantile hand holding, but I am to understand some people come from inferior stock.

Hmm, maybe I shouldn't reply to /. posts after role playing a dandy.

Tell them in the virtual world things are turned around. Instead of assuming trust, assume everyone has an angle to get you.

What?

[darkpixel2k]

computer viruses, malware, adware

Viruses? Malware? Adware?

What are those?

Can you explain them to me? Pretend you are explaining them to someone who has no clue what they are.



(I run linux)

DISA Has online IA training

[drizato]

DISA has some simple and straight-forward IA training available on-line. The DoD IA training includes interactive exercises. There is also a module on phishing. Check it out. http://iase.disa.mil/eta/index.html#onlinetraining For most techie's it is far to basic, but based on your target audience, I would recommend it.

easy solution

[eeikka]

Sorry for not answering on your query about good ideas on how to educate your non tech family. Instead here's what i've done in somewhat similiar situations. (When I've found that teaching how stuff works or what is bad or not does not really help more than trying to fill up well by carrying water all over again.) Set up the system so that one partition does have only operation system installed, other partition(s) have remaining data, and have a image copy of that OS partition, so when they mess up their comps, recover the system from that image file. This way it takes much much less time to have the computer working again. Hope this helps

Linux + VMware

[jandersen]

My solution is crude and simple:

1. Install Linux at all machines
2. Install VMware
3. Install whichever OS in a virtual machine.
4. Make a backup copy of it in a safe place
5. Let people use the virtual machine, but don't let them use the base OS
6. Make sure that all essential data - documents, whatever - are always on a networked disk

- when they screw up, simply copy from backup. Not perfect, but it is amazing how much hassle it has saved me.

Keep a replacement on hand!

[lcmail]

I have the same problem with more family members in more locations so I tell them to buy a certain small form factor HP computer or a certain Lenovo laptop. I can UPS them a replacement very quickly at their expense. Each has a backup drive and some use cloud storage. Now they all want Netbooks. Any ideas on the best all around Netbook?

Always use Protection

[gcatullus]

Always Use Protection: A Teen's Guide to Safe Computing by Dan Appleman - This book is geared to teenagers, and it is a bit old, but it explains things very easily and hammers home the simple lessons, like Don't open attachments etc. It isn't too preachy, but it gets the message across.