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Are There Affordable Low-DPI Large-Screen LCD Monitors?

jtownatpunk.net writes "As time goes by, I find myself supporting a greater number of users moving through their 40s and into their 50s (and beyond!). I notice more and more of them are lowering the resolution of their displays in order to 'make it bigger.' That was fine in the CRT days, but, quite frankly, LCDs look like crap when they're not displaying their native resolution. My solution at home is to hook my computer up to a big, honkin' 1080p HDTV, but that's a bit of a political risk in an office environment. 'Why does Bill get a freakin' big screen TV?!' Plus, it's a waste to be paying for the extra inputs (component, s-video, composite), remote, tuner, etc. that will never be used. And a 37-47" display is a bit large for a desk. So here's my question: Is there a source for 24-27" monitors running at 1366x768 that are affordable and don't have all of the 'TV' stuff? Or is my only choice to just buy 27" HDTVs and admonish the users not to watch TV? (And, no, just giving them big CRTs is not an option. Most people would rather stare at a fuzzy LCD than 'go back' to a CRT.)"

77 of 549 comments (clear)

  1. I know exactly what you need by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Euthanasia

  2. Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger fonts? by PeterM+from+Berkeley · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Is it THAT hard to get Windows to use a larger font for everything? Wouldn't that address the issue?

  3. But for those of us who are young... by pwnies · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Are there any affordable High DPI monitors? Back in the day you used to be able to find 17" 1600x1200 crts, which were wonderful. My laptop is running at 1400x1050 @ 10", which is also very enjoyable. Are there any flat panel desktop displays out there with the same density? I'd love a 19-22" display running at 2560x1600.

    1. Re:But for those of us who are young... by MoonBuggy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The impression I get is that DPI is not a selling point, other than in particular (very expensive) niches like medical imaging. That's fairly understandable, I will admit, as I doubt it ever comes into most regular users' purchasing decisions.

      What I find odd, however, is that I've never seen them selling standalone high-res LCDs even at a moderate markup. It'd be one thing if they weren't manufacturing the panels, but it's not too hard to find a laptop with a 17" screen at 1920x1200 - a very quick search shows full laptops (with those panels) selling at £700, so they're not exactly ultra-premium products. Replacement panels alone seem to show up in the $300-400 range (aplogies for mixing currencies, but it was easier to find a US supplier). Even so, nobody decides to wrap a plastic case around the screen and slot in a DVI port, rather sticking them on a laptop, and make a bit of cash from the people who do happen to consider high DPI desirable.

    2. Re:But for those of us who are young... by FrankSchwab · · Score: 2, Funny

      Damn whippersnappers! I've got 1440x1050 on this damned Thinkpad, and by the end of a long day, I'm wishing for the same pixels on twice the screen real estate.
      We'll ask you again in about 34 years when you get to be 50, and see what you think at that time...Now get offa my lawn!
      /frank

      --
      And the worms ate into his brain.
    3. Re:But for those of us who are young... by tomhudson · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Congratulations. In your attempt to brag that you had an even larger monitor *with the same resolution* and only cared about handing it off, you completely failed to understand the concept of density.

      How very nice of you to not understand the original posters' problem. I understand the concept of density - but older people suffering from loss of visual acuity need more ABSOLUTE SIZE, not density. A 21" with the same 1600x1200 will be a lot more useful to them than a 17" with the same resolution.

      How very Alanis of you, then, to be so dense. Doncha think? (Seriously, do you not? I recommend trying it.)

      You might take your own advice, and actually RTFS ...

      Seriously, there is no excuse for people in a business environment to still be using crappy monitors - or even single screens. Spend a grand on a couple of decent monitors and a dual-head video card - amortized over the next 5 years, that's less than 10 cents an hour - and your people will more than pay back the extra cost in increased productivity and FEWER MISTAKES.

      Errors cost money. Having to squint at stuff on-screen, or having to continually flip through a stack of windows, is $MONEY. The investment will pay for itself within months (or even weeks, if it prevents a few errors or lets people find them quicker).

      When a crappy 14" 640x480 VGA monitor cost $600, and a 15" SVGA was in the 4 figures, being cheap on displays was understandable. It's not now, not when businesses should be seeking every method to increase productivity and lower error rates so they can keep clients happy and retain customers (and thus retain their employees).

      When a company has a RIF (reduction in force), they should at the very least reapportion material such as LCDs so that more people can double their video real estate. It's not just a morale booster, it more than pays for itself. And while they're at it, cannibalize the ram to bump up those marginal boxes that the underlings, who do the work, are stuck waiting on while the boss has the very latest to watch an f***ing useless podcast on. It's really a shame to walk into a company and see the boss doing that on a half-decent 22" LCD while the secretary in front is struggling to transcribe figures into a spreadsheet on a fuzzy 14" CRT. So yes, I laid the 21" on them. She needed something better, and it was just taking up space here.

      I understand that peoples priorities are different, and not everyone understands the cost/benefit ratio of having decent displays. "Oh, it's just a monitor."

  4. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Because there is more to look at than fonts... like the 16x16 icons everywhere.

    --

    "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
  5. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by NoYob · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Because there is more to look at than fonts... like the 16x16 icons everywhere.

    Isn't there a "large Icons" selection?

    --
    It's NOT me! It's the meds! I'm on 1000mg of Fukitol.
  6. Get a 2560x1600 monitor and run at 1280x800 by pin0chet · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Easy. Get a 30" Desktop LCD like the Dell 3007wfp and run it at exactly 1/2 its native vertical and horizontal resolutions (1280x800). You essentially get the same quality as if it were the native resolution (well, one to one mapping at least) and none of that crazy TV stuff. The best part is that if somebody with, well, "normal" eyes wants to use the monitor in its full 2560x1600 glory, they can simply switch the resolution.

    1. Re:Get a 2560x1600 monitor and run at 1280x800 by Overzeetop · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, that works. Except for the cheap part. Much cheaper to buy them a 32" TV and throw away the remote.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    2. Re:Get a 2560x1600 monitor and run at 1280x800 by RancidPickle · · Score: 3, Funny

      I can see the tech support calls now...

      User: "I have pop-ups taking the whole screen and playing ads for beer and cars all the time. Then something happens so my mouse disappears and things move all over the screen by themselves. Is this a new virus?"

      Tech Support: "No, that's the Denver Broncos game. What's the score?"

      --
      "First things first, but not necessarily in that order."
      - Doctor Who
  7. Is the problem really DPI? by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I think the real problem here is that the software is rendering text way too small. Tons of websites out there insist on ridiculously tiny font sizes like 8 point.

    Apple had at one point a plan to give OS X resolution-independent rendering, so that UI objects are always displayed at the specified physical size independently of resolution. That seems to have fallen by the wayside, but this is part of the correct solution--the other part is to alow the user to just say they want everything to be displayed larger at a specified ratio.

  8. Re:Um, don't give them an antenna? by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 4, Funny

    They could move the mouse by playing the antenna like a theramin.

    Woooooo-EEEEEEEEE-oooooooo!

  9. Re:Software? by Jeremi · · Score: 4, Informative

    I want a "zoom feature" for the OS. Hold ctrl-mouse wheel and resize EVERYTHING on the damn machine.

    MacOS/X has that feature, FWIW.

    --


    I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
  10. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by MartijnL · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And all sorts of business critical applications that use unscalable texts in the UI. Now you can blame the application for not scaling but usually just buying a bigger screen for the user is a lot cheaper than having the application fixed (if it is even fixable at all).

  11. The good news is, "sharpness" isn't critical... by jeffb+(2.718) · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ...because if your eyes can't focus on the screen, everything's going to be blurry regardless. As long as the blurred area of an individual pixel on the rescaled display projects into an area smaller than the circle of confusion on your retina, it won't affect your perception of the screen's overall sharpness.

    1. Re:The good news is, "sharpness" isn't critical... by Halo1 · · Score: 2, Informative

      The distortion by LCD's not running at their resolution are way worse than that. Hell, we even got a bug report from someone about our graph unit supposedly being buggy because text rendered in full screen mode was illegible, while the only problem was that he was using an 800x600 resolution on an LCD monitor with a different native size.

      If you download the attachment to that bug report and unzip it, there's a picture of the screen inside. And in fact, it does look quite bad. Of course, there's nothing that we can do about that.

      --
      Donate free food here
  12. Re:Software? by elrick_the_brave · · Score: 2, Informative

    Mac OS X Leopard or Snow Leopard...

    Hold down the Apple key and scroll your mouse wheel.. voila.. instant zoom in/zoom out.

    --
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  13. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by tepples · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There is a preference for large icons, but not all third-party non-free applications respect it.

  14. hate to say it by fermion · · Score: 4, Interesting
    But to solve this exact problem we bought an large screen iMac. Use large system fonts, larger fonts in mail and safari. The mouse can make things bigger and smaller, or simply magnify.

    I have also solved this problem by using an LCD projector. One day when I left my glasses at home, I spent the day reading off the wall instead of my laptop.

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    1. Re:hate to say it by obaloney · · Score: 2, Funny

      This is an off-the-wall solution. (By definition.)

    2. Re:hate to say it by drunkenkatori · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There's no reason to hate to say it. Apple did accessibility very very well. We bought a 27" iMac for my Grandma with glaucoma and switched it to 800x600. The mac scales it all quite well to fill the giant screen.

      Then when it's time for maintenance, I switch it to full resolution for me and then back to low resolution for her.

      Kinda how video games work.

    3. Re:hate to say it by fm6 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There's every reason to hate to say it. Apple does a lot of things really well, especially when it comes to UI design. But they get on my nerves. They're arrogant, they've never probably supported third-party developers, they're paternalistic towards their users, and sometimes they do things their own way just to show they can.

      What especially bugs me is the way their marketing appeals to the snob factor in their products. Their Mac-and-PC commercials drive me up the wall, even when their criticism of PC shortcomings is valid. Actually, especially then, because of the smugness with which the comparison is made.

  15. Set the computer to use half the native resolution by Yvan256 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Let's say you have a 1680x1050 LCD monitor. Try to set the OS at 840x525. The monitor will use exactly four pixels to display each pixel from the computer, so you'll still get a razor-sharp image.

    Some of you will say that 840x525 is too small (resolution size, not physical display size), but it's a bit larger than 800x480 which is what most netbooks are these days. And given the number of netbooks sold, more and more applications should try to support 800x480, which means they should be okay with 840x525.

  16. 30 inch LCD, run at half resolution by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 4, Interesting

    30 inch LCDs are available, with native resolution of 2560x1600. They're not cheap, of course.
    If you need really big pixels for the vision-impaired, just run them at 1280x800 and there will be no artifacts (exactly 1:2 ratio), but still a tolerable resolution.

    --
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
  17. Age besets me by xenoglossy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Finding myself in my mid 40's with a eye problem has affected work to a large extent. 20/20 all my life to end up with distorted vision in my right eye has led to a number of changes. First, went back to the huge Mitsubishi 2070 CRT. I find it clearer that the 19" LCD's. Second, received glare reducing glasses from corporate HR (gunnars.com) which greatly help glare issues with my wonky eye. Without the glasses I cannot work a full day. Third, installed a theme manager to try and darken the windows screen. For the most part this works except for the inability to darken Outlook backgrounds and still be able to read email.. Fourth, looking into a large LCD or similar which can display a high resolution (lots of real estate) with "large fonts"...

    --
    Fixer of things broken by people who really ought to know better
  18. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    To get Windows? No.

    (Display, Appearance, Large Fonts. Also Effects, Use Large Icons. This is for XP.)

    The millions of shitty Windows applications that assume that everything is running using "normal sized fonts," on the other hand? That's the challenge.

    Some of these applications actively ignore the Windows Large Font setting, so even if you set Windows to use Large Fonts, they'll still use the same too-small fonts they've always used. (Not sure how they do that, since I thought Windows just scaled the DPI up.)

    Even better are applications that will respect the larger font sizes, but still layout everything as if they were using the smaller font sizes, so only the top of text in labels, buttons, textboxes, et al are visible.

    Short answer: Yes, it should. No, it doesn't.

  19. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by Lord+Byron+Eee+PC · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Reading glasses - they are cheap ($5) and available (Walgreens). Why everyone feels the need to solve easy problems with complex solutions, I will never know.

  20. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by iMaple · · Score: 2, Informative

    The newer versions of Windows have a "Change the size of text and other items on the screen" that scales fonts and (most) icons up nicely. KDE has a font scaling option too (and I'm sure other window managers will have that as well).

    I think using scaling is a much better option than buying a low dpi screen (for example anti-aliasing looks waaaay better)

  21. And the applications? by tepples · · Score: 2, Informative

    If you're on a Windows box, you can achieve the same overall effect by increasing the size of your icons and fonts.

    Windows has preferences for large fonts and icons, but not all third-party non-free applications respect them.

  22. Re:Just use half resolution by jandrese · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Beyond the fact that the Windows resolution dialog won't let you choose that whacky resolution, there's also the problem that 540 pixels is not enough. Seriously, a lot of dialog boxes are not going to fit on that screen, probably even including the Windows display dialog box. You're going to need a 1920x1200 display just to get a somewhat more usable 960x600 after you quarter (not half) the resolution. A 2560x1600 would be better though, as you'd at least get 800 vertical pixels out of it, which is enough for small laptops and other inexpensive displays. The problem is that such a display is likely to fall short in the "affordable" category.

    --

    I read the internet for the articles.
  23. Re:Fire the dead weight by MartijnL · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Go tell that to the CEO who usually also falls in the same user/age group with regards to this particular issue.

  24. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by FrankSchwab · · Score: 4, Informative

    Please change your default Windows Font size (it's been possible forever; at least as far back as Windows 2000, and probably back into the 3.x days). Some things look good, most things break in unseemly ways. I try doing that every few years, all the way back to my 21" 1600x1200 monitor, but back away from it each time due to incompatible apps.

    I tried it again this year - hooked up a PC to my 47" LCD HDTV running Media Center. Realized that I couldn't read text from the couch, so I increased the system font size to make email, etc legible. And Microsoft Windows Media Center, published by a company that really should be doing this kind of testing, took it's already 1" tall font, readable by a legally blind dog from 50 feet away, and blew it up even larger, breaking the screen layout in unusable ways.

    And, so, I went back to the default system font size, again. I'll try it again in a few more years, but I just don't expect it to ever work the way a user wants it to work.

    /frank

    --
    And the worms ate into his brain.
  25. New Egg by NewWorldDan · · Score: 4, Informative

    As usual, it's New Egg to the rescue. You can search monitors according to pixel size. The largest pixel sizes give you a resolution of 1920x1080 at 28" (~$370). There are also some even larger screens at lower resolution, but I don't know how big you want to go. They have large format screens - 32" at 1366x768, but those seem to be quite a bit more expensive (~$950).

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824254043
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16889252035

    Personally, I prefer a 4:3 ratio on my screens and those have become very hard to find.

  26. Q&A by clinko · · Score: 5, Funny

    Q: "Why does Bill get a freaki'n big screen TV?!"

    A: "Because Bill doesn't bother the IT guy with stupid questions like this one."

  27. Re:Um, don't give them an antenna? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    -1 for misspelling it.

  28. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by Peteskiplayer · · Score: 2, Informative

    Isn't there a "large Icons" selection?

    Just hold control with the desktop selected and scroll the mouse wheel up.. voila! Changable icon sizes (in Vista and 7)

  29. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by V!NCENT · · Score: 4, Informative

    It's not my intention to troll, but with KDE4 on Linux everything is vector graphics and scales percentage wise to a resolution instead of Windows XP where everything is just fixed size and looking horrible when scaled up.

    So if you are running KDE 4.3 for example on a low resolution screen (try a full screen Windows game in Wine and kill it from a terminal and switch back to the terminal where X is running and you can see very tiny windows, icons and fonts untill you go to the controll center and set it to run on your native resolution) everything scales down. On higher resolution everything scales up. This, for me, is a major advantage over Gnome = 2.2.8 on very high resolutions.

    I am amazed at why Windows still doesn't do this. Maybe it's for the better to buy a large standard definition Plasma screen. It would eat up about as much power as a large, low-DPI CRT screen and if you can still buy it it is very, very, very cheap. Think about 299 USD...

    --
    Here be signatures
  30. More like on hold, but still present by SuperKendall · · Score: 4, Informative

    Apple had at one point a plan to give OS X resolution-independent rendering, so that UI objects are always displayed at the specified physical size independently of resolution.

    I think they still have that plan, but the engineering was delayed in shoring up the iPhone platoform...

    However, you can use this today in most apps for OS X. You install the development tools, and then run /Developer/Applications/Graphics Tools/Quartz Debug.app - there's a menu option under Window for "UI Resolution" where you can set a scale. Most OS X apps after a restart obey the set scale, since they are all using the Cocoa text rendering... it also works with images.

    That may well be a good option for people who are having eyesight issue.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  31. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by V!NCENT · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And there is another problem; applications nowadays are made for larger resolutions. A netbook for example, like the ASUS EEE PC 900, has a resolution of 1024*800. Almost all applications out there do not even fit on it!

    --
    Here be signatures
  32. Non-problem? by mewsenews · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I've noticed this option doesn't cross the minds of some IT guys, but how about letting the users do what they want?

    If they want to look at an awful non-native resolution on their LCD, why don't you shed your single tear about the waste of technology and let them go about their business? Does it actually affect you in the slightest?

    1. Re:Non-problem? by ThrowAwaySociety · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If they want to look at an awful non-native resolution on their LCD, why don't you shed your single tear about the waste of technology and let them go about their business?

      Where does it say that the submitter was whining about the "waste of technology" or forbidding his users from using non-native resolutions? Where does it say that the users are happy with the non-native-resolution "solution?"

      He's just trying to find an optimal solution, instead of a half-assed one. Which is exactly what a good IT guy should do

  33. It comes down to manufacturing issues by WuphonsReach · · Score: 4, Informative

    There's really only a few pixel densities manufactured today.

    0.282mm to 0.285mm (19" 1440x900 or 22" 1680x1050)

    0.270mm (seen in 24" 1920x1200 displays)

    0.243mm to 0.248mm (19" 1680x1050 or 22" 1920x1080)

    Personally, I find the 0.245mm pixels to be too small, with the 0.285mm pixels to be just about perfect for me. Then there's the 15.4" Thinkpad display that is 1680x1050, that has really really small pixels (around 128ppi or 0.200mm).

    There is an Acer 27" that is 2048x1152 with reportedly 0.291mm pixels.

    Basically, when monitor shopping, you need to look at a particular resolution (such as 1680x1050) and then make sure to buy the displays that are the upper end of the size range. The 1680x1050 glass is currently sold in sizes that range from 19" to 22". Your older users will be a lot happier with the 22" 1680x1050.

    Or you could go looking for 24-26" 720p TV sets which are typically 1360x768 and have very large pixels. Of course, the small resolution will quickly become a bane to future users.

    All of the smaller 1080p TV sets are all 24", which is only a pixel size of around 0.270mm. So the 22" 1680x1050 displays with 0.285mm pixels are a better choice.

    --
    Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?
  34. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by realityimpaired · · Score: 4, Informative

    Since we're talking about Windows-land, it's worth mentionning that Windows Vista and Windows 7 both automatically scale icons to fit the display you're using, this way the icons take up about the same amount of physical space on screen, regardless of the size of the screen you're using. (as long as your screen properly reports itself to plug&pray).

    I'm not sure what the issue is, though... if you want to buy somebody a 27" monitor, and are happy with 1366x768 resolution, then buy a TV. It won't cost you anywhere near as much as a 27" computer monitor will cost (besides which, if you specifically want the lower resolution, good luck finding a computer monitor over 17-20" that doesn't come in 1920x1080).

    But if you're in Windows-land, updating to either Vista or 7 would solve the "large fonts and icon scaling" issue without needing to fiddle around with the graphics settings.

  35. Free Solution by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Start / All Programs / Accessories / Accessibility / Magnifier

    This will magnify the area around your mouse without too much impact on everything else. Best case scenario: No need for a new monitor. (Maybe a second monitor just for the magnification?) Worst case scenario: It does nothing to help you and you've spent no money to find that out.

    --

    "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

  36. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 2, Funny

    This is exactly it. KDE4 works just as well on my tiny eeepc as on my 22" LCD as on my dual-screen setup.

    Basically, if you cannot see anything because you are using inferior technology and basically propose fixing an inane system (windows/mac with their unscalable UIs) with an inane setup (let's use the LCD for a resolution it is not made for!) your problem is not technological...

    Go live in the now: this is The Year of the Linux Desktop, where Stuff Works As It Should (most of the time). Hell, if you are desperate for windows, you can run it in vmware, full-screen, and use the magnification effect of kwin to solve your resolution problem the best possible way.

  37. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Run linux. Run windows in vmware. Use the magnify effect of kwin to solve your tiny fonts problem. Now, you use the correct resolution of your LCD, have scaling as good as possible, and crash protection.

    Once more linux/KDE saves the day.

  38. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 4, Informative

    In fact, both Vista and 7, if Aero (i.e. DWM) is enabled, will scale up any application when you raise DPI. If application is marked as DPI-aware in its manifest, DWM will let the application handle that itself (by enlarging fonts and using scaling layouts); otherwise, it will apply simple bitmap scaling to the composed window bitmaps.

  39. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2, Informative

    I'm pretty sure vista used large images for icons.

    Vista UI guidelines require providing icons of sizes up to 256x256. All stock OS icons follow the guidelines, and, to the best of my knowledge, so does all MS software released after Vista.

  40. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by MBGMorden · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Indeed. Heck we have one application we got recently where it can created custom database fields, but if you create more than the screen will hold they just go off screen - they don't even have the decency to display a scroll bar. Just inaccessibly off screen.

    As a result we had to bump all users of that app up to 1024x768 minimum. Now, personally, that's pretty low anyways (I run my 17" office LCD at 1280x1024), but a LOT of the older users complain at anything higher than 800x600. And in this case increasing font sizes won't help - it'll just push the info back off screen again.

    I think we're eventually just going to have to look into getting them some big honkin monitors to compensate. 1024x768 might be small (to them) on a 17" screen, but on a 24" screen I'm betting they won't complain.

    --
    "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
  41. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by Hope+Thelps · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So my solution is to hand out reading glasses to the older users I support?

    No. But recommending a visit to the opticians to any users who complain of bad eyesight would be a good idea, regardless of age. Are you planning on getting comfy sofas for those that don't like the office chairs too? If there's a genuine medical need for special equipment like a larger monitor then of course it's good practice to provide that where it's economically viable to do so. But that's after they've sought medical advice and can support a need for special treatement. The reason you need to worry about other staff asking 'Why does Bill get a freaki'n big screen TV?!' is because you don't have a good explanation for it. That should tell you evrything about the situation.

    --
    To summarise the summary of the summary: people are a problem. ~ h2g2
  42. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2, Informative

    Some of these applications actively ignore the Windows Large Font setting, so even if you set Windows to use Large Fonts, they'll still use the same too-small fonts they've always used. (Not sure how they do that, since I thought Windows just scaled the DPI up.)

    Windows does scale DPI up, so if you request a font with size specified in points, you'll get a proportionally larger font. The problem is that you can also request a font with size specified in pixels, and that, by definition, won't scale with DPI.

    Similar problem in fact exists with CSS, where pt will scale, but px will not (which is why, if you're ever using px to specify text size in your CSS, you're evil, and in Hell you will be blinded and then forced to surf Flash-based websites for eternity).

    Vista and 7 mitigate that problem, somewhat: they require every application to specify in its manifest whether it's "DPI aware" or not - it's opt-in, so you if you don't tell it that your app is aware, the default is that it's not. Note that this means that all pre-Vista applications are not DPI aware.

    DPI aware apps,work the same way all apps did in XP and before - they get true DPI values reported by the OS, and have to adjust text size and window layout accordingly themselves. If they do it right (and hopefully, if they claim to support it in their manifest, there was some effort made to make it work right!), you get proper vector scaling. Ideally, if they use some sane UI framework with proper reflowing layouts - e.g. Qt or WPF - it "just works".

    If an application isn't DPI aware, then, as far as it's concerned, it always runs at 96 DPI - the OS lies to it. Window manager then takes whatever the application rendered to its window(s), and scales that up using the usual bitmap scaling techniques. This isn't nice looking, because you get the usual pixellated and somewhat blurry picture as a result, but at least it is enlarged to the desired size - so you can read it with poor vision - and it always works correctly with any application.

    Of course, this is meant to be strictly a legacy app support feature; all new applications should be DPI-aware. Also, users can opt out of this, and fall back to XP behavior (and risk badly written apps not handling non-standard DPI settings properly).

  43. We need better-scaling desktops. by SWestrup · · Score: 2, Informative

    Actually, I'm dealing with just this problem lately. Its not so much that my eyes are going (although now that I'm 45, I find I do prefer larger text) its that I am working on a project that is supposed to be used from across a room. There is a very large set of program in both the Windows and Linux worlds that are incapable of working on a desktop running at 640x480 or even 800x600 resolutions. I've even found ones that can't be used at 1024x768.

    One might think that the answer would be to go to a much higher resolution and then tweak all of the various menu- and font-size settings to make things large enough to read. This also doesn't work as those exact same programs often seem to have hard-coded assumptions as to font sizes and one regularly discovers menus which only show the first 3 characters of each entry. Plus, many windowing systems don't seem to provide the kind of user settings needed to configure things for this kind of environment.

    While one can (and I do) blame the authors of these program for sloppy coding, there are a very large number of such programs, which can only lead me to think that the OS APIs for handling this stuff in a clean way are far too cumbersome to use correctly.

  44. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by PhrostyMcByte · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Windows Vista and 7 do this too. Applications can set a flag to tell the window manager that it is high-DPI aware, and get nice big sharp windows. Apps without this flag are rendered at 96dpi and scaled up to avoid any issues with dumb programs.

  45. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by FlyingBishop · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Not to mention the fact that 'Large Fonts' are actually not that large if you're sitting more than a foot from the monitor. Personally I like to sit about 3 feet from the monitor, partially because this means I have notes on my desk between me and the monitor.

    And large fonts are not that large because nobody writes software to scale properly - that's partially why Gmail is such a breeze, there's the implicit assumption in (good) web development that you cannot control fonts.

  46. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by rockNme2349 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Just hold control with the desktop selected and scroll the mouse wheel up.. voila! Changable icon sizes (in Vista and 7)

    I found that doesn't work in Outlook 2003. Imagine that - MS Outlook for frack's sake!!

    So there is a feature in windows Vista and Windows 7 That doesn't work with Outlook 2003. Have you tried Outlook 2007, which was released along with Windows Vista and 7?

    --
    Sewage Treatment Facilities - "Our duty is clear."
  47. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by dave562 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This brings up a good point. A couple of years ago there was an employee where I work who was having ergonomic issues with their workstation. The complaints were valid and one of the solutions turned out to be a flat panel, LCD monitor. The lesson that the rest of the staff learned was that if they complained about ergonomic issues, they would also get LCD monitors. Soon enough a team had to be formed to deal with all of the ergonomic complaints coming from the staff.

  48. I never did understand by JustNiz · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I never did understand why many people cant grasp the concept that system font size is independent of screen resolution. You'd think they'd notice the stupidity of buying a 30" 2560x1600 monitor then running their whole desktop at 1366x768 but noooo....

    Another point: why would you ever buy a 1680x1050 monitor? they cost practically the same as a 1920x1200 monitor but can't display HD at native resolution (1290x1080). Even if you currently don't think you'll ever need to watch HD, wouldn't it be sensible to cough up the extra 99 cents and buy a 1920x1200 just in case?

    1. Re:I never did understand by oasisbob · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I never did understand why many people cant grasp the concept that system font size is independent of screen resolution. You'd think they'd notice the stupidity of buying a 30" 2560x1600 monitor then running their whole desktop at 1366x768 but noooo....

      I thought the same thing: at $DAYJOB, we have a policy to run all 4:3 monitors at 1024x768 because of readability issues. One of the first things I did was to try and change the font sizes instead, hilarity ensued. Not a single business-critical app we used handled the setting correctly. Some ignored it, while some scaled their text up within a fixed-size (x by y pixels) area, which cropped the text on the right edge.

      Support for this feature in applications is awful.

  49. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by SydShamino · · Score: 3, Funny

    Reading glasses - they are cheap ($5) and available (Walgreens).

    Why everyone feels the need to solve easy problems with complex solutions, I will never know.

    Yeah, why design or buy a tool that is convenient and pain-free to use when we could just make every human being strap a different tool onto their face.

    And why do these exist when Walgreens carries a simple solution for this problem, too?

    --
    It doesn't hurt to be nice.
  50. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by Lars512 · · Score: 2, Informative

    This is one area where OS X lags behind. Sure you can zoom, but if you use a 27" or 30" display, the menu is just as small as on a 13" macbook. As much as I love other aspects of Mac usability, I'm still hoping that tomorrow they'll have the same scalability for large displays that windows and linux have today. My parents are getting old now, and they're both finding this particular aspect of computing a problem. After quite a while, I estimate that about 80% of computer issues my mother has are related to her difficulty reading what's on her screen.

  51. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by dfghjk · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why? because reading glasses are the proper, high performance solution that also happens to be low cost. Large, low resolution monitors are not only expensive and demanding of desk space, they are lower in performance.

    The only reason not to use reading glasses when they are necessary in a work environment is vanity. There is no "convenient and pain-free" tool that will solve every older worker's presbyopia problem except proper eyesight correction.

  52. Fixed in NeWS in ~1988 by billstewart · · Score: 2, Informative

    It was twenty-or-so years ago today.... So back in the late 1980s, I was using Gosling's NeWS on Sun Workstations. It could fit on a Sun3/50 with enough RAM, though it was happier on the SparcStations that came out in ~1989 and following. It was a Postscript-based windowing system - What You See Really Is What You Get.
    It later evolved into Java, which you may have heard of :-) Everything Just Worked (except when it didn't, in which case it crashed and died in ugly ways, but most of the time it worked, and the debugger was really cool.) For example, if you wanted to print something on a laser printer, you got the same fonts, rendered at the correct resolution, no jaggies required. The psterm terminal application we used instead of xterm didn't do anything special to iconize; you just shrank it to use a 1-point font, which is 1 pixel on a typical Sun workstation screen of its day, and anything happening in the window continued to work live, so you could see things scrolling by.

    My supervisor was in his early 60s and kept switching eyeglasses to talk to people or look at his computer, so we just cranked his font size to 24 points and he could read everything.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  53. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by bhtooefr · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Great. Now point me to some modern software (or hardware, for that matter) that can run with IRIX.

  54. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by Angostura · · Score: 4, Informative

    Speaking as a 45 year old who has just had to buy his first pair of reading glasses, I absolutely concur. Not only do have these devices fixed usability problems with my computer display, they also fixed the same problem that was manifesting itself with the rest of reality.

  55. Re:Get some glasses, grandpa by somersault · · Score: 2, Funny

    Are you really this stupid or are you just trolling?

    You mean there's an actual difference between the two? Interesting hypothesis, but I've yet to see any data to back it up.

    --
    which is totally what she said
  56. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by Misfire · · Score: 2, Funny

    My bifocals would like to have a word with your simple five-dollar solution. :P

  57. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by mikep554 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Guideline" is incompatible with "require".

  58. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by Narpak · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If there's a genuine medical need for special equipment like a larger monitor then of course it's good practice to provide that where it's economically viable to do so.

    On a related note apparently reading text that is too small does have its downsides:

    Readers were asked to read under six especially demanding conditions known to cause eye fatigue. These were: reading small text sizes; reading low-contrast gray text; reading with a light source behind the reading material to cause glare; reading from too close a distance, which causes the eyes to point inward towards each other (convergence stress); reading from variable focal distances (accommodative stress); and reading while wearing glasses that simulate an astigmatism (refractive stress). While people were reading under these extra stressful conditions, we measured the activation in the orbicularis oculi muscle with a sensor placed 1.25 cm below the eye. Readers reported eye fatigue after reading under each of these conditions. Small text sizes, low contrast, glare and refractive stress all resulted in increased activity in the orbicularis oculi, while convergence stress and accommodative stress did not, though after reading in these two conditions, readers are more likely to report headaches and pain coming from behind the eye. Stressors such as small text size and glare are reported as irritation on the front of the eye.

    My personal experience relating to computer screens is that growing up I had CRT, until my mid-twenties when LCD started becoming affordable. Up until I was about nineteen I did not know about changing resolutions on my screen and thus ran in Windows native resolution (which in the case of 95/98/XP seemed to be 60hz). I suffered from frequent migraines that would start with flashing lights in-front of my eyes and end with two days of such blinding headache that I was unable to do anything buy stay in bed, inside a dark room, and during the first day I would throw up at least once. Several days after such an episode I would feel like I was serious hungover. Turning the refresh rate up to 100hz effectively cured me over night, I did not have another episode until my late twenties when I played console with a mate on a CRT TV an entire evening.

    Perhaps a bit of a digression there. But do not underestimate the importance of a good screen and a comfortable text/gui-size; undue strain on your eyes can significantly reduce the quality and quantity of your work.

  59. Reading glasses are not a universl fix. by cnaumann · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It is not that simple. I am 46, and I already have bifocals. I still have trouble with the computer screen. If the bifocal is strong enough to work well for reading and close-up work, it is a little too strong for the computer screen. If the distance section is good for infinity, it is also not right for the screen. A larger screen further away would work, I would be able to focus on it, and it would be large enough to see. I suppose I could try trifocals.

  60. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by KamuZ · · Score: 2, Informative

    I work at 1440x900 and in Gnome there are some applications with windows and dialog boxes really big, cannot see all the fields sometimes or the OK/Cancel buttons are hidden because they are too big.

    There are some windows like that in GIMP and actually need to enable more desktops so i move the windows between two so i can actually can click "save".

  61. Re:So I suppose that.... by demonlapin · · Score: 2, Informative

    They're great for presbyopia. If you correct your myopia with contacts, you'll still need them.

  62. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's not a question of bad eyesight but of bad design by windows.

    The system font is increasingly small and can't be changed.

    All they need to do is fix that issue and then this wouldn't matter. A 3000dpi moniter is great if it displays letters a reasonable size but not if it displays them 13 pixels high regard less of the resolution.

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  63. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by krou · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's sad that employees have to complain to get computer equipment that will obviously carry healthier benefits for them regardless of whether or not they're suffering now.

    It's like saying all employees should get cheap, shitty chairs until they complain about back problems.

    Surely better productivity outweighs the cost of getting these screens?

    --
    'If Christ had tweeted the sermon on the mount, it might have lasted until nightfall.' - John Perry Barlow
  64. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by davester666 · · Score: 2, Funny

    What's the problem? You should still be able to outrun them...

    --
    Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
  65. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Windows 7/Vista allow you to set a global DPI value, and everything scales to that. Text, icons, window decoration, everything. Some older apps struggle with it but most are fine.

    XP is a lot more limited, but Windows 7 and Vista have both made big improvements in this area.

    --
    const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
    SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  66. Re:Why reduce the DPI instead of using larger font by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Informative

    if you use a 27" or 30" display, the menu is just as small as on a 13" macbook

    Uh, that's exactly how it should be. Something that is 1cm on one screen should be 1cm on another screen, irrespective of the size of the screens. If you want everything bigger, then override the display DPI setting and apps will automatically be scaled to compensate.

    --
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