Slashdot Mirror
Spain Codifies the "Right To Broadband"
Reader adeelarshad82 writes to lets us know that Spain has now codified a "Right to Broadband," thus following the lead of Finland. Spain's industry minister announced that citizens will have a legal right from 2011 to be able to buy broadband Internet access of at least 1 Mb/sec at a regulated price wherever they live. The telecoms operator holding the so-called "universal service" contract would have to guarantee it could offer "reasonably" priced broadband throughout Spain.
Don't blame the Spanish for setting a relatively 'low' speed requirement, blame the modern slew of Web developers who insist on bloating their pages with graphics, animation and JavaShit that only their own Core 2 Trio can handle. Blame the guys who insist on using verbose protocols without compression, blame the guys who maintain that 'Web applications' are the past, present and future. Using a web application makes as much sense as using a satellite phone to talk to the guy standing next to you
Give modern hipster web devs more bandwidth and they *will* abuse the shit out of it to make their sites look ever so slightly better than the next guy's site, but it's all fluff. I actually know some guys developing a 'web app' where you can upload videos to have them converted into another format. Which I must say is a nice novelty or even somewhat useful if everyone on your 10GbE lan has a shitty machine except for one high end server but kids these days are so dumb that they would rather use one of these web converters than to download something and actually minimise their browsers for two seconds while they use it.
This is not a "right" to anything. These people need to look up the definition and history of what a "right" is.
This is merely a law that regulates the Internet providers, requiring them to offer service to everybody for a regulated price. That's a regulation on the business side, not a "right" on the consumer's side. There is a pretty big difference. If it were a "right", it would not cost anything.
We have similar laws. For example, within certain geographical limits, my local utility is required to offer me electricity at a regulated rate, no matter who I am. It's exactly the same kind of law. But that doesn't mean I have a "right" to electricity! If I get too far behind on my bill it can get shut off. It's merely the ability to buy something, not a "right" to it. If I had a "right" to electricity, nobody could legally shut it off.
What is the legality of this bill? On 1st December 2009, the EU will have in law the hated Lisbon treaty, which gives the EU carte blanche to do what the hell it likes with laws in the former 27 EU countries, and is accountable to nobody.
The EU wish to have some sort of three strikes laws for "illegal" copyright downloaders and cut off "offenders", this conflicts with what the Spanish have just done.
So who is going to win Spanish law, or EU law?
Take Nobody's Word For It.
Maybe I'm answering to a flamebait, but theres nothing wrong with web applications. Many people want to have their email in webmail instead of using a client. Many people write to forums, news sites and sites like slashdot instead of newsgroups (as you seem to do too). Many people are perfectly fine using twitter and facebook for communicating (facebook even has that IM "client"). And because bandwidth is considerably cheap now a days (well in some countries at least, and it's getting there everywhere too), it becomes easier for people to upload a video file to a web service to convert it to another format than to download all the required codecs and find a software that can do it. Remember that majority of people aren't geeks.
That doesn't mean there's no desktop application alternatives and that you couldn't use them. I do for email, IM and many more things because it suits me better. But it doesn't mean other people couldn't do otherwise.
If you do not like those web applications developed by "modern hipster web devs", just don't use them and let people who like them use.
(and 1mbps is the minimum guaranteed speed in the news)
With the coming of age of the Internet, it will soon be as important as phone service. With the Internet, you can get legal information about registering your vehicle, and about smog-check stations, about filing a complaint with the relevant state agency. You can get information about universities. You can check whether your jury group is required to appear in court on a particular day.
10 years ago, the Internet was an exciting fad. Now, the Internet is an indispensable tool for living in modern society.
Of course, the best use of the Internet is to read articles on Slashdot.
how many mililibraries of Congress per second is it?
God's gift to chicks
Once someone codifies a "right to beach front property" I'm going to be moving there!
You've confused efficiency with convenience.
A good developer will attend to function first and form second. Part of function is efficiency.
A bad developer barely even understands the concept of efficiency and function is frequently their last priority - just barely enough of a requirement to justify the site in the first place.
Look at slashdot for fuck's sake - you can't even metamod without javascript.
Like we need fucking javascript to click a fucking radio button for good/bad/no-rating?
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Last year, Spain granted human rights to apes:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/14/opinion/14mon4.html
Does this mean apes also have the right to broadband? And please, no jokes about Nigerian scammers.
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
We do have a right to high cycle/bandwidth connectivity. Baby steps like Facebook will prove to be beneficial to us all. Most of us on slashdot are operators to a longer-term human condition.
Things here will trend to this end. This is how it will be. And in many years, we will all be connected in ways that you can not imagine today.
Eventually human consciousness will coalesce with computing technology. (which would have likely evolved without our involvement.) Only then will we see that the universe that think we exist in today is nothing but a forgotten abstraction to the process that created us.
If you disagree then you do not understand what I am saying.
You are reading this as a being in a nearly infinitesimally portion of the complex fabric of reality. You hardly exist - but you are connected to the whole. We are all of the same.
When you see your shadow on the sidewalk as you're walking on an urban street to get some stimulant at Starbucks, know that even the process of projecting your shadow is far more remote and more incomprehensible than anyone will ever comprehend.
(the reason WHY you're walking to starbucks at that moment exists on another dimension.)
Good for Spain and Finland for their "rights of broadband." Of course, the politico-leaders did this in some perceived self-interest, but the truth is: the did it because it was meant to be --
and it was all related to your shadow on the sidewalk, but it wasn't really.
That's how it is.
a good web developer focuses on form _and_ function. In web development space, at least, they are equally important. things have to look as good as well as they perform. why is it that people always think it has to be one or the other.
maybe at slashdot at least, people here generally prefer the function part.
"A good developer will attend to function first and form second."
Depends on the application...
"Part of function is efficiency."
And part of efficiency/functionality is form.
...and in spanish constitution there is also a thing that says "all spanish have right to a decent home", but prices of flats and houses are a joke, and lot of people live in the street.
This will be the same, more empty words.
In our day, we dint av any of these fancy bloody web applications.
We had to make do with everythin in 24 point Times New Roman Marquee, in black, white, cyan or magenta mind you. And for graphics we ad ASCII art. And none of this bloody Javascript nonsense either. If you wanted to submit a form, you filled it in bloody right the first time, and then submitted it ... if you'd fucked something up, you ad to redo the bloody thing from scratch as a lesson to be more bloody careful next time.
Now git off my lawn.
(As a side note, bearing in mind how long it takes to actually POST a comment to Slashdot, would these guys seriously be happy with even more "Whoa Space Cowboy, you didn't choose a radio option" error messages ?)
If it were a "right", it would not cost anything.
So how is copyright a right then? If I want my "right" enforced, I have to join and pay an artists "interest" union, that I would never trust. Even worse, if I burn my own music (played with the band I am a member of) on my own CD, I have to pay that same union because I am supposed to be pirating my own music
That's blackmail, not a right
Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
A function that is not exposed in a form users can understand might as well not exist at all.
Really? People see Broadband as a right? Really? It makes me wonder, why not make driving a car a right? That technology and privilege has been around for nearly a century. I'll tell you why, because it is only a privilege. Why should broadband become a right? What happens when Technology surpasses what it is today and it's no longer termed broadband, will they modify the law or create a new one? And isn't this just a law against companies?
Really? /sigh
Life takes interesting turns, but the most interest is when you're off the beaten path.
This is hardly a matter of human rights, but it is a significant step forward for many Spaniards who live in rural areas where the only current broadband option is very expensive (and not very reliable) satellite service. Although the article doesn't mention it, it will likely mean that faster service will also be available in those areas. Telefonica's basic DSL service in Madrid these days is 6Mbs.
things have to look as good as well as they perform. why is it that people always think it has to be one or the other.
Because "both" requires smart web developers, and they're a scarce resource.
People convicted here (varies by state, etc, just generally speaking now) can have all or most of their lost rights, including voting or holding office, restored, after completion of parole and if they petition for them and the appropriate judge or whatever grants them back and so on. There's no one size fits every situation though, some states automatic, others some hoop jumping, some others never allow it. Small writeup on wikipedia about this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_suppression#Ex-Felon_disenfranchisement
One thing to always remember about the USA that I think is lost to a lot of people. It is thoeretically set up to be the united States, with that being the default, not the United states. We really do have at least in theory if not in practice 50 independent nations with a lot of different laws, in a federation.
Now, this practice is in hot dispute all the time what with our federal government being on a mad power grab the last few decades, but in theory we have all these different "nations". States and nations were the same way back in term usage.
Me, I would prefer a LOT more "states" rights, as this would give the people here better choice on where they wanted to live, we'd have a lot more differences to help make that decision. The federal government has usurped so many things it really has no legal justification for that we are losing freedoms and rights all the time, IMO. For example, the federal government is only really supposed to regulate interstate commerce, NOT intra-state commerce, but they keep insisting they can just declare any commerce to be interstate, so they seize jurisdiction. It really sucks, too.
This whole scene is now being addressed, at least peacefully so far, by a lot of states re-declaring their sovereignty on what is legally theirs by our Constitution. This is known as the tenth amendment movement and is getting a lot of traction, several states legislatures have issued statements to that effect now, something like around 21 so far or pending.
http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/the-10th-amendment-movement/
And technically, if enough states decide to do it, they can assemble completely outside the federal government and just dissolve the whole thing, then go it alone or whatever is decided at that point, a new alliance or alliances. And it just might get to that point if conditions keep worsening in the US. And I hope it does, IMO, the federal government is way too far gone in abuse of power and not being able to run the economy in the black, or stay out of wars, etc, to have any justification for existence at this point, it is unfixable as it stands. Bloat, corruption, "feature creep", it's a big fat mess. They can't even run their own little area -DC- effectively. If they stuck to what is really the role of the federal government it wouldn't be near as bad as it is today, but they don't, and have gone off the deep end into power grabbing.
I think the state government, jointly subsidized by the fed, should provide fiber to all public schools as a part of the national infrastructure. The school districts should then be allowed to sell bandwidth to providers or directly to the surrounding neighborhoods from those points. The amount of taxes for home owners, paid to school districts, should then be removed or drastically cut. The government gets to have the infrastructure needed for national security. Schools get the tools needed for modern education. Neighborhoods get the tools needed to keep the public informed. The list of benefits goes on.
Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
Don't confuse 1mbps with 1MBps. TFA clearly spells out 1 megabyte per second.
If you were in Spain once the legislation is passed, the slowest connection you would have is 1 mb
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
If you don't want to pay taxes, you have several options: leave or a fiscal paradise, or produce your own sustenance in the middle of nowhere.
If you live in an organized society taxes ensure that everybody gets a wide package of services that ensure you can attain civilized living.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
This is little more than protection for relatively recently privatized Telefonica, which as a private industry is now facing competition from newer entries to the lucrative telecom business, like Jazztel and Ono. Here in Spain, Telefonica is the only company currently in a position to "guarantee" such service, since they used to be the nationalized telecom provider. This will merely force out their competitors.
...then broadband employees are necessarily slaves.
And yet, somehow, we were able to read those sites, unlike many websites today that make your eyes spin like pinwheels.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Fat lot of good itll do. It's a right to be ripped off by dodgy companies and does nothing to solve the problems.
The operators here form an illegal cartel, they fix their prices at an artificially high rate. the same operators own the mobile networks, where they also operate a cartel. The government does nothing.
The service is dire. Itll not be the bandwidth you pay for, and it wont work 100%. People in spain dont even realise it's bad, they think it's normal. The government does nothing.
The operators steal from everyone. I had to take telefonica to court over my 'debt' for adsl they never installed. This is normal. Normal. Everyone ends up paying Telefonica and the other operators for services they havent received or the operators put you on the bad credit lists. Your only recourse is a lengthy legal process. The government does nothing.
The ex-state monopoly owns all the infrastructure, so although it's supposed to be deregulated they wont let anyone else touch 'their stuff', so you are almost obliged to go to them (Telefonica), and then they steal from you and overcharge you. Assuming they give you a service. The government does nothing. You can persist with other operators, but Telefonica sabotage them. Seriously. It's a farce.
Why does the government do nothing? Corruption. The EU found that spain's government is corrupt at every level. It's considered normal in the spanish administration to accept gifts from providers, with contracts, before contracts, anytime. Stuff that would get them sacked in northern europe is considered par for the course. Nepotism (enchufe) is de riguer.
All in all, this law is just window dressing, a dream. It amounts to nothing. A right to be treated like dirt by a cartel of shady operators.
Spain isn't Europe, Spain is Africa. I know, I live here. You've got to treat it like the third world, then it's fine. But you've got to understand that when you read things like this Slashdot story.
Are you sure?
You are welcome on my lawn.
I'm not so sure the parent's post is really off-topic.
Advertising is now the form and the function of the Web.
You are welcome on my lawn.
You forgot "more gay".
You are welcome on my lawn.
A good developer will attend to function first and form second.
why is it that people always think it has to be one or the other.
Gee, what's your point?
That you don't understand the meaning of 'second?'
Part of function is efficiency.
And part of efficiency is convenience, or how efficiently a human can interact with a system.
It says, literally: "All the Spanish people have the right to enjoy decent and adequate housing"
A big question that I have in that case; Why is the Spanish constitution written in English?
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
The telecom spanish situation it's a de facto monopoly (telefonica), with some other minor players to mascarade the industry as on oligopoly. The point is that spanish telecom prices/quality are one of the worst in the EU, with the explicit consent of goverments (left & right spanish parties does not give a f* s* for the people's right to access information).
Sometime they need to wash his face, that's the 'new regulation' comes in... minimal requirements, undefined prices, and of course, not now, tomorow. I am sorry, but I've heard the same lies, repeated too many times..
What's in a sig?
By all means, do blame the spanish (government) for the ridiculous low speed.
Seriously, we have a pretty bad monopoly issue over here. The former state-owned telco controls most of the last mile wiring and equipment everywhere, and resells to other ISPs at ridiculous prices. Other ISPs have been making inroads into large cities, but if you live anywhere with 50k population, chances are you're SOL.
I just recently gave noscript a test on my dual Opteron box. My browser (with a heap of open tabs) went from constantly pegging one CPU down to 10% immediately. Practical;ly none of the pages look any different or even have user interactive elements that need javascript, it's all just a big waste of my cycles for no good reason by a bunch of web developers who think they can program.
I have used javascript to good effect on web pages before. It placed no discernable load on the client and actually reduced bandwidth requirements by not refreshing the entire page constantly. Perhaps the web developers should be thinking more along the lines of what is actually necessary to the page rather than how much load can the client possibly tolerate. If the former even approaches the latter, it's probably time to redesign.
The much maligned /. interface actually reduces load by not reloading a bazillion comments just to moderate one. I have no idea what most pages are scription, but they manage to burn a lot of cycles and improve nothing at all in return.
As it is written right now, the law would allow a government entity to close websites offering copyrighted materials without permission. Until now, that could only be done by a judge. This "right to broadband" is just sugarcoating the pill of censorship. Unfortunately, I'm sure it'll succeed in hiding the real issue here, given the lack of involvement in politics by Spaniards. (Disclaimer: I'm Spanish myself.)
To do list for Windows
There are no rights 'to' anything. Government can only grant rights 'from' that which it might otherwise to you. The "right to free speech" is really a promise the government won't stifle you. The right to keep and bear arms means they won't come and take them away (unless you live in NOLA), etc.
Any construct of a "right to" something means taking something from person A to give to person B, which infringes on person A's natural rights. This defeats the right purpose of government to protect people from each other, and so is an abuse of power.
It's politically convenient to call those things rights, but that's just a game they play to excuse their behavior and garner votes from the B's.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Apparently no one in this discussion knows a thing about Monopoly Economics. Utility monopolies are normally called "Natural Monopolies" 'cause you only have one electrical feed, one gas feed, one water feed and, in past, one telco feed into your house. (Even with telco, unless you totally exist with Skype or some other computer-based comm service, your access to phone service is still limited to a small selection of cell companies and still only one wireline/cable into your house). Because of this, governments create regulatory bodies like utility commissions to make sure that the natural monopolies don't restrict access to people by virtue of their monopoly positions. Regulators have had to make sure that other companies have access by law to your monopoly phone service to sell you competitive rate products - long distance, local phoning, messaging, and internet.
The Spanish law seems to be just a simple regulation of a natural monopoly and this goes on in every country all of the time. They're just stating that the local internet monopoly cannot shoehorn out people by driving prices up or not providing access because someone lives in a remote rural area. i.e: After the monopoly company banks billions of Euros by selling to the easy-access users in Madrid and Barcelona, they can't cry crocodile tears claiming that it's too expensive to serve a small town in the hills.
Get with it people!
spain is actually one of the leading countries in internet adaptation. they are experimenting with sending govt. employees home to make them work by telecommuting. add to that the fact that numerous governmental services in eu countries are being translated into internet medium so that you wont have to get out of your home/office to conduct your business with the government, this right to broadband decision only comes as the natural conclusion.
as our world increasingly becomes digitized, 'the right to internet' will be naturally added to the bill of rights of man. no other outcome can be expected.
it is too appalling that some private interest groups and companies in united states STILL are trying to work against this global digital age to assert their self-interests, with acta and similar other shit. however, they can only oppress us citizens. there is a huge bulwark of Eu standing in front of them in europe, japan wouldnt submit to them, china doesnt give a crap about what they try to assert.
this leads to an ultimate conclusion ; people of united states have to fight for their internet rights.
Read radical news here
Actually, looking good just requires web designers. No developers are really needed, unless it's full of AJAX.
The jobless rate for those under 25 is 42% in Spain. The jobless rate for all workers there is 19.3%.
You're welcome to leave the country anytime you wish.
Someone disagrees with you.
Nobody's holding a gun to your head and forcing you to live here.
Other than any foreign country whose immigration department won't grant a visa.
Even 100% taxation would not be slavery unless citizens were forbidden to renounce their citizenship and emigrate.
If all other countries forbid you to immigrate, you're forbidden to emigrate. If WHTI is in force, you're forbidden to emigrate.
You are so right. Even if the self same web 'masters' are moderating you down.
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
"That doesn't mean there's no desktop application alternatives and that you couldn't use them"
FOR NOW - they will end, since as you said, most people are stupid sheep who don't know jack ... oh wait, that's what you should have said.
Oh well.
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
"a good web developer focuses on form _and_ function. In web development space, at least, they are equally important. "
No they are not! Function is more important that what some kid developer thinks looks cool.
"things have to look as good as well as they perform. why is it that people always think it has to be one or the other."
Because so far NOTHING has looked good and performed well, they always lock font sizes to something the kids with their 50 inch screens can see, but us adults are just fucked, and that's too bad.
Nothing looks good and performs well as long as it is developed by "cool kids"
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
"If you do not like those web applications developed by "modern hipster web devs", just don't use them and let people who like them use."
Bla bla - that is not possible, often these things stand in the way of services we want/need to use - so we are forced to suffer the shit
(And stop calling people who disagree with for trolls)
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
I took a left at Broadband and ended up here. Now I'm stuck here making inane comments, just hoping that someone will take notice of me and find me funny. I feel like Jerry Seinfeld at the Apollo.
rather use one of these web converters than to download something and actually minimise their browsers for two seconds while they use it.
Have you tried downloading such programs? I agree with most of your post but sometimes a 'web app' makes more sense. If you try downloading video converters all you will get is shit, unless you specifically know what apps you need to use you are out of luck with anything involving video formats. An online tool does not require installation.
An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
:P I bet if we went extremes I could prove it. I could make a totally unusable ap with an amazing back-end.
The much maligned /. interface actually reduces load by not reloading a bazillion comments just to moderate one.
I certainly don't remember having to load any more comments than the ones being moderated under the old system.
But even if the moderator chooses to see the context, since meta-mods don't happen until the topic is closed, they could have saved a lot more resources by simply converting the now static discussion into a couple of gzip files reflecting the various moderation filters and then just dump the appropriate static compressed page out to anyone meta-modding in that the discussion. A couple of magnitude less cpu-cycles by avoiding having to hit the database and compress on the fly for a few 20-30KB more bandwidth, if that, since the static page is cacheable by ISP proxies and ajax is not.
There is a proper method, requiring 2/3rds of the states, they can call for a constitutional convention then do whatever they want, up to and including a complete dissolution of the existing federal government (and by that I mean firing them top to bottom, that is just one way to do it, closing agencies, pink slips all around, current elected/hired/appointed people all told to go find new jobs..whatever..there are no limits as long as the procedures are held correctly,(outside of they cannot abrogate our "bill of rights", as they are inherently born with inalienable rights), doing it as an amendment. There is no limit or restriction as to what the amendment may say. It might be as simple as the further reaffirmation of state's rights, and an imposition of severely limited federal powers, basically telling them they just went too far and there's no further need to give them time to reform, then a new set of elections. We did this once already in our earliest history, went from a national federation to a constitutional republic.
Or, the could just as easily decide to rework the design and create regional governments with new borders, or keep all the states intact and go further in limiting the federal government's power. Such a proposal then requires a 3/4ths vote of the states. This legal method wasn't used during the civil war.
At the time, and this is still contentious, because there is no provision written to "opt out", the confederacy decided to test it, and well, lost, but that still doesn't mean the union/feds had absolute carved in stone legal authority, they just seized it by force of arms. It has never been really challenged in a peaceful way.
But that still leaves the constitutional convention method.
And you have to remember, our form of government is *completely* different from any other form, as all the powers start with a default individual's rights to be his own sovereign, then the states get some limited rights (and duties), then the feds get a further set of limited "rights"(and duties).
Of course, we have the precedent of exactly what you mentioned, just a limited set of states saying "no" and withdrawing, and offering force of arms if they are prevented from doing so. Although technically still in limbo, the planet earth is rather complete with previous precedents, establishing bona fides as to casus belli, or threats thereof. In other words, victors get to make the rules.
Because this is potentially such a wildcard, I really couldn't say one way or the other how such an event would turn out. I would not be near as sanguine over a federal victory in a second match, if it legitimately got to the point that several states where willing to chance it again. I *think* the Feds would backoff, as it would be a zero sum game to prosecute those sorts of campaigns today given the nature of modern armaments and because of their wide dispersal across the states.
If there was a situation-just a real wild ass scenario-where several states said "fuck off" to the feds, and they retained all their military assets inside their borders, including fighters or missiles perhaps....the feds would backoff. MAD works quite well actually to keep the peace.
And any way it happens..I hope it does. This government is way too far gone into stupid crook ville. Just like those bogus "too big to fail" banks which should have been allowed to fail and drag all those derivative bets with them.
There's an old truthism that still applies "throwing good money after bad". Trying to "fix' the federal government now is political masochism at the very best, it just will not work. There is no practical fix for this level of combined stupidity, greed, incompetence and malfeasance.
Good! now I have right to Internet access in Spain, they can shove it up their asses until I have:
1- Right to choose my President. We can't
2- Right to choose Congressmen. We can't.
3- Right to choose Judges. We can't.
4- Right to choose Sheriffs (we call it Delegado de Gobierno). We can't.
5- Right to choose a Major. We can't.
6- Right to introduce questions in the election Ballots. We can't.
Ok, ok... we have right to choose a party that, afterwards and for our "own good", chooses everything else for us... Not sure what's the difference between this and Communist China though. But truth is that politicians make a good Job making believe citizens we live in a "Democracy"... errr so does Castro in Cuba though.
Dear
I think we should replace Javascript with XSLT and XQuery. Maybe some descent CSS arithmetic, as well.
I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.