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Pittsburgh To Tax Students
societyofrobots writes "Pittsburgh Mayor Luke Ravenstahl has proposed taxing college and professional students for the privilege of receiving an education in the city. The proposed tax will charge students in the city at a rate of 1% of their yearly tuition — which, at Carnegie Mellon, would mean roughly a $400 tax (PDF) on most students. As the tax proposal hit local media outlets this week, the mayor repeatedly emphasized the burden that college students have placed on city services, and the need for students to pay their 'fair share.'"
That's a way to dumb down the city.
... now back to the bit mines.
While it's true that the students don't pay regular taxes like other residents, what about the fact that they bring a huge amount of disposable income and spend it in the city? The money goes to the local businesses, who in turn pay taxes on their revenue. Seems fair enough to me.
Finally an answer to the obscene amount of power Dartmouth v. Woodward gave private colleges.
Students bring tons of money into an area. This fool is going to drive the students to another city. Heh....I wonder if he talked it over with the Universities before he did it?
...wouldn't just raising the booze tax accomplish the same thing?
They already do shithead Mayor. Students pay:
- property tax (included in the school's tuition and the dorm room rental fees)
- sales tax (by buying local products)
- gas tax or road tolls (when they drive around)
This story reminds me of Baltimore City Council, which keeps trying to tax neighboring counties on the theory that suburban folks work in the city, or visit the Raven stadium, but don't pay taxes. (Except that they do - via state income tax and sales tax and providing income to stadium/restaurant/other inner city workers.) Same stupid first-order level of thinking. These politicians need to dig deeper.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
burden? what burden? these students spend money locally and give enough money to the city already. Just what burden are they doing, buying coffee and office supplies? 'Those darn students and all their learning, what a burden. They should have just dropped out and been a benefit to society'. I can't believe how many dumb taxes that have no merit keep coming up. Lets call this what it really is GREED GREED GREED
We are going to tax you because.. "blah blah blah blah". No one believes them because they will then turn around and "waste" money the next time. We fought the British off and then turned around and just did it to ourselves. If they are short of money, maybe they should get some higher education "smart" people from MIT to look at "innovative" ways to cut costs or do things "smarter" and "cheaper". Any corporation worth its salt has this approach and sells it to their employees as well as a corporate standard. Better faster cheaper. Instead we have the politicians (who are not living in a dingy one bedroom trying to get an education, maybe raising a kid or working 3 jobs) who keep the status quo the same year after year and show no innovation toward bettering the lives of the people. They stifle innovation and change just by their very existence.. Another example of government? The blinking yellow lights where you have to drop to 20 miles and hour during school hours. I drive a 30 minute commute and on that road, there are 3-4 areas like this. The problem though.. no kids! In the 3 years I've taken this route, I've yet to see any kids crossing the road at these locations. Yet every day, huge numbers of cars have to slow down, causing traffic congestion, wasting time, because some politician said "protect the kids, blah blah blah, do it for the kids". I'm not impressed.. we always go for bigger organizations instead of smaller ones that can do a better job in a localized area..
Have you fscked your local propeller head today?
As opposed to the countryside students who have to pay for the right to study?
You know it makes sense, a little reminder from jointm1k.
Just tax stupidity, with higher rates the higher up in government you are. End the deficit once and for all.
1. Get $2 bills and dollar coins and use them for all their purchases for two weeks.
2. Then spend a week or two not spending a dime - ideally until they've saved the $400 tax.
3. Publicize it. Write articles in the student paper and letters to the editor.
4. Sit back and watch the results. Lather, rinse and repeat.
5. Profit?
Seriously, students need to show their economic impact on the local community. Using money not normally used will help make that point.
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
... they'd go to jail.
A crime should be a crime no matter who commits it.
I am sure there will be an apologist on this thread. Personally, in a sardonic way I think it's great! People are getting what they deserve. People want to play football jersey politics or not be involved in government then this is what you get. It's funny now that governments are short money and people are opposed to being fleeced anymore that they first thing elected officials do is cut essential services e.g. police, fireman. At least that's what they are doing in my city. We have to be punished like the good little serfs we are.
I live in a small town that grows in population by 1/3 when the local university is in session. Students pour a lot of money into our local economy through paying rent, eating, shopping, working, etc, etc. This is just a typical liberal money grab. Next thing around the corner, pay Obama for the privilege of receiving Gvmt health care.
They already tried to tax surrounding counties to pay for the football and baseball stadiums. Everyone said up yours.
As a former student used to getting shit on by the city and cops I have these points to make:
1. Pay to much rent to live in a campus apartment.
2. Pay to much to eat on campus.
3. Pay to much to buy liquor on campus.
4. Pay for professors and related expenses.
5. Support a lot of local business.
6. Do volunteer work and (they may not like this) get politically active.
7. Work for next to nothing.
8. Support sports programs - big money on my campus.
9. Pay big fines when the cops bust us for anything.
With all of the goods and services that we consume, how is it that students don't pay their fair share?
Universities often times are the single largest economic drivers in their cities precisely because of students.
Does this apply to 2 year schools where often times the poorest oldest students go?
The notion of trying to tax people trying to improve their lives simply because they are trying to improve their lives is sick.
Why not tax some rich assholes paying only 15% on their dividend income - raise property taxes in nice neighborhoods.
Tell that to my HOA.
It doesn't hurt to be nice.
Ah, yes..this is EXACTLY what they need to improve their education!
Really, though, I hope the idea doesn't spread...I see the potential for it to. People already have enough problems paying for their education...I can't imagine this encouraging anyone to want to get a good one.
It makes no sense to me why when budgets need to be slashed it's always the students who get it first. In California, students just had their tuitions hiked 32% per semester.
It's insane and incredibly backward-looking. CA has a $20+ billion budget shortfall, and an insane political process that requires a supermajority vote to pass a tax increase-- or any budget at all.
As a result, anyone can block anything that even hints at revenue collection, and it's a total clusterfuck.
And students are the first in line to feel the pain.
(don't tell me how cutting taxes stimulates the economy and raises money and the laffer curve and supply side and fleeing jobs and all that... CA's economy has been "stimulated" in this manner for a generation, and it's still fucked.)
Stop buying anything from any of the city stores. Mail order everything and when the May0r wonders why business are starting to die in the city tell then sorry we got no money for your city we just go to school only here. Also bet is some one looks closer at the finance's of the city government there will find some "intrsting" things they payed for under the table.
Also new people "younger" need to run for the government offices get the ahols out.
But you get what you vote for...
Something is really wrong when you tax a student while just having given massive tax cuts to the very rich in the last 7 years.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
They should just keep a tab for these alleged city services they provide and then bill the university at the end of the year. I have a feeling this would be something CMU wouldn't care about, but would bankrupt UPitt. The Pittsburgh police dept has to break up partying and deal with vandalism on a daily basis as UPitt. CMU's only charge would be the hazardous waste team having to come out once a year because of something some geek did in the Chemistry lab.
...when they apply to the "rich" or those EVIL corporations or in general to "other" people.
They quickly become libertarian when the taxman crawls up their ass.
Wait till your young healthy selfs start paying for universal healthcare.
"Fair" is being able to keep 100% of the money you worked hard to earn.
As a CMU student (sort of), this doesn't surprise me, and I invite Luke Ravenstahl to kiss my poor ass. Considering this guy prioritizes money in the most bogo-riffic ways (e.g. spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on fancy trash cans sporting his name) it seems clear he is not and has not been fit to run the city.
Pittsburgh's new economy is fueled by the universities*. Everybody knows this. Taxing the students---those people least able to pay---is akin to cannibalism.
Of course, what will happen is students will just borrow a bit more and stack on a little more debt. So maybe Luke's idea is to get students to hedge their futures on his present financial problems.
* And the Steelers
Lifeblood sucking students who contribute nothing to society and ruthlessly download music and movies must pay their toll just like all the rest of us hard working people with income. We all had spare change during school to throw at the municipal government. Why can't they?
And while we're at it, we need to tax other non-contributing members of society who place a burden on social services. I'm all for a tax on K-12 students, a tax on pre-schoolers, a tax on the disabled, senior citizens tax, and a tax on people who have crimes committed against them.
After all, with all the student financing available, they'll just pay it with loans right? So it's like we're actually taxing their future income!
"There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell them." ~ Louis Armstrong
Taxing students, bailouts for banks, there is only one way for citizens to fight back, stop spending money and start saving it. However most citizens are as greedy as the government and can not stop spending their money. I myself have cut my spending almost 90%, from now on its only buying what I need and nothing else. I am not going to fuel the cycle.
It would appear that Mayor Ravenstahl isn't familiar with the concept students (like tourists) bring money to his city and you really don't want them to leave. Cities fight to get tourist attractions to come to their city. Of course moving a university is harder than moving an amusement park so I guess it's safe to go after the university students. But if he makes it hard enough on the local universities and their students I'm sure they will find a way to express their displeasure and get rid of him.
Man, you should take your show on to YouTube, they would worship you like a god there.
By that argument, police officers should be charged for "impersonating a police officer", heck it's a crime if I do it and a crime is a crime no matter who commits it, right?
Some smartypants will say that a police officer has the duly constituted authority to act as a police officer, but then if that bit of sophistry is true then governments could also claim to be duly constituted authorities with regard to taxation, right? Better toss the police in jail rather than risk that ... of course what prison guards do is really legalized kidnapping, so ...
The mayor is being a dipshit, but you'll need better arguments if you plan on stopping him.
The Mayor of Providence has proposed a similar tax in providence, although it would "only" be $150/student as opposed to $400. The arguments being made in both cities seem to be exactly the same: Students need to pay their "fair share". I'm kind of curious how we don't already pay our fair share, though, given that anyone who lives off campus pays property taxes and we bring millions into the local economy. (And in Providence, we're all the local economy has left)
Now I'm not one to go shouting about the Government and taxes, but student taxes are very clearly a form of regressive taxation. It just doesn't make sense to be trying to take money from a group of people who don't have all that much of it in the first place. But that seems to be the trend of taxation lately, more and more regressive so rich people can keep all of their "hard earned" money.
Yet, we're still not taxing churches...
In our university town there are already taxes in place which are aimed at students without directly naming them as the objects of the laws. Restaurant taxes, Alcohol taxes, Property taxes on rental units, Parking law enforcement strategically biased to certain areas, etc. The Mayor in question really isn't too bright if he's being so direct.
terrible towels? A 5-10% excise tax on terrible towels would probably bring in millions.
"From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
All college students should leave Pittsburgh! Then the mayor can observe the consequences and decide whether college students have been paying their fair share all along. Sales taxes, jobs created, and willingness of companies to be located in Pittsburgh all relate to colleges being present. The real truth is that Pittsburgh ought to pay students for being willing to put up with that dump of a city.
I have always lived under the assumption that our young people need to be
able study and when they are finished they start earning their share in society (so then they start paying taxes).
So, if that is not true, then i think we should re-institute child-labor so children can pay taxes too!
A 4 year old can make great sweaters!
he plan was rejected. its old news. http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09322/1014321-53.stm
Why not a politician tax, somewhere around 1% of their annual income, for the privilege of being a politician?
If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander.
Stasis is death. Embrace change.
Hey, at least they're calling it a tax. In California they call it "raising fees." Either way, it seems like politicians are never willing to tax the rich, but are happy to jack up taxes on the young.
Sounds like your attitude is part of the problem.. You would make a fine "politician"
Have you fscked your local propeller head today?
and frankly, I don't see much reason for the city to exist currently (in an economic sense) except for the presence of its universities. Generally, in that situation, the approach to take is to offer every incentive you can to get businesses and industries INTO the city. And one thing those businesses will need, especially in a modern economy, is well educated students. Pittsburgh seems to have suffered something of a "brain drain" effect in that (naturally enough) folks who would be the foundation and building blocks of economic activity have fled elsewhere for better opportunity. Investment capital appears to have done much the same. The ONE strong asset left to the city is high quality education which brings smart people into geographic proximity with Pittsburgh, and heaping burdens on it strikes me as exactly the wrong approach (ESPECIALLY the students.) Students in higher education ARE a special category - they are the ONLY realistic chance for economic success for both Pittsburgh and the US as a whole in a world economy. They are a limited resource both locally and globally. Education follows good teachers and researchers, just as academic reputation does - make things bad enough and even universities can lose their edge. More to the point, Pittsburgh needs a complete economic overhaul. It might be hard to kill CMU's reputation as long as good people come to the school for the reputation, but if Pittsburgh wants them to STAY and actually start to recreate a new economy from the ruins left by the steel industry they have to make people WANT to stay.
Pittsburgh is in a tough situation, and I understand resentment of any "special" status of students, but they have to realize that a student tax isn't even addressing their larger problems and will do exactly nothing to effect the turnaround Pittsburgh really needs if it is to revitalize itself. Pittsburgh needs to try and KEEP those students, not give them one less reason to be there, because young educated people are the one irreplaceable necessity in any serious drive to build competitive industries.
"I object to doing things that computers can do." -- Olin Shivers, lispers.org
The problem is, in Pittsburgh the two major enterprises/employers are colleges and hospital systems. Both non-profit and both tax exempt. They own a tremendous amount of land (tax-free) employ the most people (tax free) and use up a tremendous amount of city services (such as police, ambulance, fire, water, sewage, etc, all tax free). The city has been trying for years to get the universities and hospitals to pay something, ANYTHING to help the city with its budget situation. In other cities where non-profits make up a large percentage of the area, the non-profits usually contribute something in terms of "voluntary payments", such as in Boston. What the mayor is doing, is trying to pressure the universities to come to the negotiating table to help support the city in its time of financial need, using other major cities with major university systems as a model. So far, the universities and hospital systems have refused. (Keep in mind, our major hospital system is UPMC (University of Pittsburgh Medical Center). Luke cares little for this tax and doesn't want it to pass. He want to use it to cause a big firestorm (which obviously it has) and force concessions. We'll see if it works. PA State Reps are already proposing laws to prevent the City of Pittsburgh from being able to tax students directly.
Sugapablo
send us your real name and we'll make sure there is no help for you when you get into some catastrophic situation...
What about older people that are trying to get degrees? Why should a long term resident be charged a tax for going to a private school. I'm not saying that I agree with the tax for the migratory college population, just that nobody has mentioned this subset of the 'revenue stream' yet.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law - Aleister Crowley
I don't see why we don't just pay taxes for our taxes that way it covers the cost of the tax process otherwise how can we afford to tax people?
There is a lot of people breathing air... for free no less and should be taxed on it.
Also babies consume a lot and produce tons of rubbish every year, they contribute nothing back to society and yet are a major burden, I think we should impose a tax on them to cover some of there expenses.
The mayor is being a dipshit, but you'll need better arguments if you plan on stopping him.
Conservation of dipshits?
spending tens of thousands of dollars every year into the local economy just isnt enough
that's odd... I thought students were all poor and can't afford music/movies/games/programs. Where did this magic disposable income suddenly come from? /sarcasm
Former student because you flunked???
Pay TOO much...
cops bust us for anything...ILLEGAL.
In a time such as ours. Where so many people are loosing their jobs. And most of the people who lose their jobs have no education. Why then would your want to tax people trying to get an education when you know how much more tax a person with an education is going to pay than a person without an eduction.
In Norway for instance education is free. Yes FREE. We have excellent universities. For instance, Oslo University ranks at 101 at topuniversities.com. Not only though is it free to study, but the government pays you around 15000 NOK for every semester you complete (for full time students) (2 semesters a year). And not only that, but they give your a further 30000 NOK in loans (per semester) that are interest free until 1 year after you complete your studies.
The way the US treats it's people still puzzles me. Surely putting a strain on people who already have little money to live for just sounds like greed to me.
Say NO to unpaid Internships!
(don't tell me how cutting taxes stimulates the economy and raises money and the laffer curve and supply side and fleeing jobs and all that... CA's economy has been "stimulated" in this manner for a generation, and it's still fucked.)
The problems that California have is the result of spending more that it earns. It's as simple as that. The economy was booming and tax revenues went through the roof because of it. Their tax policy, as far as income was concerned, wasn't too bad. Unfortunately, on April 15th in past years, the California legislature sees that huge pile of cash come in and they spent it thinking that California's boom will last forever. The Legislature, especially the liberal Democrats, have no clue about saving for the future or any clue that times do change and there are downturns in an economy.
Every time someone had some sort of project and regardless of its merits, they put money into it. Look now, when they want to cut spending, regardless of where, some special interest protests saying that they are important and the legislature needs to cut somewhere else.
If they had a responsible fiscal plan instead of spending every penny that came in they wouldn't be in this situation.
Laffer said that reducing taxes stimulates the economy as long as government reduces spending to match inflows. The California legislature was too stupid to realize that and they were too beholden to the special interests that always have their hands out for government money.
It's NOT me! It's the meds! I'm on 1000mg of Fukitol.
Umm, no. I was referring to true crimes... crimes that actually hurt people, like theft, murder, and so on. Police officers who violate rights or throw people in jail for non-crimes should be thrown in jail or should pay restitution to their victims, however... as should anyone else who does those things.
Oh yes, of course that's EXACTLY what I said...
So? This doesn't mean they should be granted special rights. All men are created equal... right? So then why should the police be able to break into someone's home in the middle of the night, arrest him at gunpoint, and rough him up a bit without consequence? Why should the police be able to keep you from doing something on your property that's hurting no one else? Would anyone else be allowed to do that? No, so then the police shouldn't be able to, either.
Doesn't mean there shouldn't be anybody bringing down criminals, it means everyone should play by the same rules. You may NOT aggress against me unless you're trying to prevent me from aggressing against someone else. If you commit a crime against me you MUST deal with the consequences as anyone else would.
Silly me, to think that I would ever believe that throwing a mayor in jail for theft would be a good way to stop him... better to focus on the small time thieves on the streets who steal wallets from old ladies, they're easier to hate because they don't pretend to be your Messiah.
Anyway, it's a fairly strange idea. Paying for "the privilege to get an education in the city" may just make you decide it is a privilege you don't need. And seeing the vast amount of students running around town, people not taking this privilege would be a severe cut into city's finances...
>>>We are going to tax you because.. "blah blah blah blah". No one believes them because they will then turn around and "waste" money the next time.
+1. Here is your typical Pittsburgh (or Philadelphia) politician in action: Timestamp 1:00 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS4rRl5B7NI
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Your sarcasm meter is working perfectly.
Sufficiently advanced parody is indistinguishable from sufficiently retarded fundamentalism. I believe this applies here.
I always thought education was a right, not a privilege
There's a better way to achieve the same end without taking the massive PR hit. Negotiate with the colleges and universities to increase their payments in lieu of taxes, and if they won't agree, then increase the cost of services to them.
This is similar to what the Dems are doing on health care - they (and others who looked at it, including John McCain before the election) want to tax high-end individual health care plans, without being accused of increasing taxes. Fine, so they'll go after the middlemen instead with an excise tax. Chances are the middlemen will pass the costs on to consumers, but hey, that's their decision not the government's.
Maybe the mayor is acknowledging that he doesn't know how to negotiate.
When Arizona State called asking for money I told them to tell Michael Crow I hope he's happy with his tuition hikes because he's never getting another dime from me. The way I see it, he already stole about $6000 dollars from me (they violated the state constitution to make those increases). I'm not going to voluntarily give more and my daughter will most likely not attend ASU. We're putting away money so she can go anywhere.
Students get a higher eduction, get better jobs, make more money, and pay more taxes which gets put back into the schools.
If we want to focus on "fair" then homeowners with children who don't go to public school need to be except from public school related taxes.
If the government wants their money "now" they better be prepared to lose money later.
Work Safe Porn
I'm sure the students don't bring any business to the city. They never patronize local businesses. They just sit in their dorm rooms and drink (probably imported from Ohio)
Is it time to go back to that "no taxation without representation" idea and a big way? I mean as in really... *no taxation without representation* - if they do not let you vote, they can't tax you.
And forget all the justifications what will be raised as to why you *just have to tax* those who can't vote.
all the best,
drew
FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
As a person from Pittsburgh, I cannot believe this.
Why would you want to hurt the hand that feeds you...literally?
If you look at all the rust belt cities (Cleveland, Detroit, Buffalo, Toledo), Pittsburgh is still up and its unemployment rate is well below these cities and the national average. (http://www.bls.gov/ro3/urpitt.htm)
Primary reason behind these numbers is CMU and Pitt. I have worked with 6 different IT companies here and they are all offshoots of CMU. Google, Apple, Seagate, etc. have their R&D site here because of CMU.
Agreed, they need to find some new sources of income for the city with dwindling income tax income...but this should not be way. But, these politicians are SMART...they chose one group to hurt where that group doesn't have no or significant voting power.
It would be more sensible if Pittsburg just got rid of all of its colleges and banned all college students from the city. Obviously, that would save them the most money. After all, students are burdening the system and not paying their fair share.
That's the question. Universities bring technology and new companies to the city. There are a lot of public projects in the city that are a reality only because of CMU and University of Pittsburgh. The Universities drive the evolution of the city. I guess the mayor is too blind to see that the wealth of the city is the universities.
The mayor of Pittsburgh wants to limit the consumption of education by taxing it! I suspect that the Pennsylvania legislature will not share his vision of the future.
You know why the government would never actually offer that "opt out" option? Because the majority of people would take it.
"We're broke like everybody else and are trying to make money any way we can. Sucks to be you, college students."
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
What about the 40 year old guy who works full time and goes to classes in the evening? Is he not paying his fair share by being an otherwise typical citizen of Pittsburgh? I see quite a few people that fit the scenario where I go, which has only increased due to the economy. So the county sheriff that wants a justice degree to get a pay raise has to pay the city an extra $400 to do so? What about the single mom that barely has time to go to school between raising a kid and working two jobs? She's now paying her fair share? This is social inequality in action.
"the mayor repeatedly emphasized ... the need for students to pay their 'fair share.'"
The students repeatedly emphasized the need for profligate politicians to control their spending.
We fought the British off (partly) over the issue of taxation without representation, but that isn't the problem here - as we have elected the people who are currently taxing us. (And in most cases continue to re-elect them.)
Here, you hit the nail on the head. Most people live in a reality distortion field where governments do nothing but raise taxes and 'waste' the money. Under the influence of this field, they believe the government can indefinitely raise the level of services provided without raising income while (seemingly) being free of the influences of inflation and rising prices that the rest of us are. There's always 'waste' to be cut and money to be saved without ever cutting services.
Any we've seen the results of this in corporate America... Jobs going offshore, ever shoddier products, ever lower quality.
Here, the same reality distortion field as above is at work - people have this odd belief that they can spend less while getting the same quality and without the people on the production lines having to work harder for less. At the same time, they insist the stocks in their 401(k), IRA, or other pension plan, go up in value indefinitely.
Seriously... what the heck? There's a reason there are two commonly found discounts out there... for seniors and students. This is because... duh... neither group is expected to be earning money! What's next, a tax on the unemployed and the homeless because they are not pitching in their share? How about cats and dogs, the freeloaders!
In other news, the mayor left for the weekend, and the average IQ of the city increased.
You know how it is - every vilage has its' idiot, and Pittsburgh wants to be able to say "We're #1" about something.
New slogan: Pittsburgh - it really IS the pits!
Or maybe they heard that the economy is changing, with more part-time, menial, mindless jobs, and they want to make sure their future workforce isn't over-qualified.
Or they want to make sure the supply of dumb voters increases.
Or they heard about "higher" education, and "don't want none of that people getting high on shit on school grounds - if they got money for weed, tax 'em".
Or the real explanation - they're broke, and figure that they can't tax the people who live there, because that means getting tossed out at the next election - so why not tax students who don't live there, can't vote, and are locked into a 4-year program?
The only arguments which will stop him are on the line of "Continue with this proposal and it will cost you my $$$$$ to your campaign fund".
This sounds like Pittsburg wants to add a 1% sales tax to University tuition. So, your context and fairness arguments don't make much sense. Federal and state governments tax all the ways you say are "not fair".
CMU students do pay more than Pitt (University of Pittsburg) students for tuition. However, any sales tax burden increases with price.
The federal government taxes Social Security as income. This is certainly a form of government aid, similar to Student Aid.
City services are communal, and everyone benefits. There are likely many CMU employees who need these services to get to work. The students clearly require them.
Students should retaliate by organizing to spend as little money as possible within city limits, group orders from amazon for supplies, students with cars taking carpool trips out to the suburbs to buy groceries, everything.
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
Don't you love it when liberals get their way and then have to "protest" the man! Liberalism always generate the exact opposite of the stated intent!
Welcome to the real world kiddies. Mayhap this'll cause a few budding socialists to reconsider their stance.
Excuse me, don't they ALREADY pay their fair share to the city? I mean they are paying sales tax for all the goods and services they buy, if they are living off campus then they are paying property tax (through rent to the landlord) to the city. This is just a greedy attempt to tax a class of citizen that is not likely able to defend themselves. Shame on you Pittsburgh. Shame on you Mayor Luke Ravenstahl. For shame!
I live in a Pittsburgh suburb (Moon, near the airport) and work 2 jobs in the city, as well as go to school.
Pittsburgh is a city that is probably HALF non-profits and universities. We have more non-profits located here than some states, and if you took away Pitt/UPMC/Carnegie Mellon/Carlow/Duquesne you would lose a gigantic chunk of the city.
We value all of this. We love it. Our work environment, lifestyles, cheap housing, cost of living, and most of all our small-town feel.
Firstly, let me discuss the reason why the Mayor is doing this: City council previously intended to tax the non-profits of our city. That's a HUGE no-no related to public power. The Mayor vetoed it. This is his counter-proposal. A 1% tax is absolutely nothing to students. We already get all of that in free benefits that most other college students can only dream of.
Slashdot comments can sit there and bash our Mayor all fucking day long, but what he's doing is necessary for the continued health of our city. We watch out asses early and keep ourselves afloat. We don't want to be the next big money-maker Manhattan, but we sure as hell want to keep our identity: a green, small-town port of opportunity for ANY business type. We thrive in the medical, green, and tech fields. We're the fucking definition of sustainability in a US city. And if Ohio would only be blown off the map, our air quality would be amazing.
For /. armchair hippies, we should SURELY revolt!!!! RAWR!!! Um...no. We're quite happy, and if the city needs to tax half of its 'residents' by upping tuition prices a little, so be it...We're happy to help the city.
"Eating the seed corn" is a folksy expression that means staving off hunger now by eating the seeds you need for next year's planting. I know it's a tired metaphor, but nothing in the English language comes close to describing how tragic it is when governments squeeze students. Education is what will bring us prosperity in the future. It should be the last think to be cut, after the military, police, fire department, road maintenance, research grants, foreign aide and pensions. When we cut education, we forgo a possibility of hardship today for the guarantee of irrelevance is decay tomorrow.
Educate your population, and you'd be amazed at how many other problems you solve along the way.
Pitt students would be getting their tuition upped 70$ a semester, which isn't the same thing as 32%.
Quit overreacting. We're fine here in Pittsburgh.
I read this, shook my head and said "only a Democrat would think of this".
Republicans do other stupid stuff, but this has such a Democratic ring to it. The funny part is, all the faux-liberal students will sit around Starbucks and will blame it on Bush, and they will all nod in agreement.
If the students had any sense, they would all claim residence in Pittsburgh and vote for the "other" candidate. To cut this kind of nonsense off the pass.
Further, they should write to each of the businesses in Pittsburgh they do business with and let them know they'll be shopping elsewhere, sorry if it puts them out of business, talk to the mayor.
If the student did something other than pointless protests, they could really put the fear of God into the idiots running the city.
Anyone else starting to get the impression that politicians across the country (especially federal ones) LIKE playing Russian Roulette with their careers lately?
I say vote them out... if you don't represent ME and MY FELLOW constituents, then you have no business holding your office. To such politicians I say, "Consider yourself fired."
</venting>
This country is sounding more and more like every period history class. The rich increasingly refuse to pay any taxes. In response, the government, powerless against said rich people, turn on the poor even more.
"The rich increasingly refuse to pay any taxes"
How can they refuse? The congress decides what taxes people should pay.
No, in my opinion, people used to be relatively self-reliant and viewed anything from the government with distrust and a knowledge that strings are always attached.
Today, people just don't care any more. We're like hookers in the sense that we'll do anything as long as our john (The Government) gives us money.
Cities love taxes that fall primarily on people who aren't permanent residents of the city, because they can hike them up whenve they need extra cash without facing any consequences in the next election. This is why we should get rid of the 'one man one vote' idea where you can only vote where you're a permanent resident. You should be allowed to vote in any jurisdiction you pay taxes in. If Pittsburgh wants to tax students, then all those students should be allowed to vote in Pittsburgh municipal elections. If DC wants to charge a commuter tax on all the people from MD and Virginia who work there, they should all be allowed to vote in DC municipal elections.
You see what the government did in Katrina? I'd rather opt out than be involved... just let me protect my property from murderous cops when they confiscate my rifle to "protect" me from looters.
The government may help the incompetent, and I do appreciate the roads and water--but there's nothing they do that couldn't be done, better, cheaper by someone else. The ONLY good thing it has going is collective bargaining--because people are too lazy to do it themselves.
Ravenstahl never showed up for a scheduled debate at the University of Pittsburgh during last month's mayoral campaign. His predecessor refused to campaign in the neighborhoods that house Pitt and CMU (Oakland), because "no union voters are there". Ravenstahl's cops beat and gassed Pitt students during the G-20 and loved it. The Pennsylvania governor (Rendell) cancelled the very effective Governor's Schools for high school students this summer. Now this. College students have a choice of where to go. Colleges have a choice of where to expand (CMU has 4 other campus locations). The politicos all want the steel mills to come back and don't understand the knowledge economy or care about anything that doesn't involve cigar-chomping union bosses. Keep it up, Mr. Mayor, and Pittsburgh will look exactly like Allentown.
so some kid cannot afford the tax and drops out. All future taxes they would have gotten from that person when they graduated and got a great job will never happen. Brilliant!
I've got a Carnegie Mellon science degree (actually Carnegie Tech) from 1964. I'm retiring next year. And the degree was never used except to get me into a grad school that I dropped out from to work in computers.
Maybe I should auction it off on Ebay?
The majority of the VERY rich, have said that they should NOT have gotten those tax breaks. As warren buffet pointed out, he got a much higher precentage back than did his secretary. Oddly, the majority of the top 100 richest ppl said that W/neo-cons should NOT have given that up, and instead should have worried about balancing the budget. And that was in 2001-2002 when all this was being debated. I guess that their (and ppl like me) being worried about monster deficits SHOULD have been listened to, then to listen to the ACs that ignore the fact that America has some of the lowest personal taxes. In fact, that is more true for the very rich.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
... Pittsburgh has a high percentage of it's economy that comes from non-profit entities such as universities ...
Pittsburgh does it to themselves sometimes. Case in point, the Syria Mosque in Oakland wanted to expand their building or parking lot, I can't remember what exactly. They tried to get the appropriate permits from the city, and guess what? They were turned down. So they sold their property to Pitt, taking it off the tax roles as Pitt is a not-for profit, and they moved out of the city to Cheswick. I have the feeling Cheswick appreciates having the Syria Mosque there and all the taxes they pay while the city of Pittsburgh did not.
Last I checked, you have to pay income tax in the state you work in, as well as the state you reside in (if the two are different). You can receive credit in one for taxes paid to another, but you still have to pay them. Students are already taking out larger volumes of student loans and running up credit cards at record rates. If you want to milk a cash cow, you're picking the wrong farm in this case.
I wonder if CMU will relocate, or just fade away?
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Pissing off students, a group more likely than any other to agitate politically is such a smart idea. I mean it's not as though student groups have done sit ins and other forms of civil disobedience for less.
We call Luke the Child Mayor here in Pittsburgh. He's the reflection of the local Democratic party system - ie, he's a retard who thinks the world will be perfect if we can just take enough money away from the people who are productive. Without the educational and medical institutions, Pittsburgh would simply cease to exist except as a collection of slums. So, yeah, that's great, let's chase away the college students and try to pry more money out of the non-profits.
Someone should compute how much student's contribute to total sales tax revenues. I am certain that students bring in more money to the city and average residents. These are people who get money from OUTSIDE PGH, and bring it INSIDE PGH. Students are little money importers. I am sure people say "oh its just $400", for most students with a part-time job, that could be 2 mos pay. Plus, it unfairly discriminates against students with higher academic achievement who go to more expensive universities. Linking it to tuition seems retarded. It seems to imply that students who pay more tuition use more city resources? So a full time student at Pitt uses more than one at CMU?
The "fair share" argument is a wash. Those students have been attending CMU and Pittsburgh University for decades, and only now they thought of taxing them?
Plus, Pittsburgh has not learned the stern lessons of history. Raising taxes during an economic downturn is always a bad thing to do.
I suppose Pittsburgh overran its budget with the "goon squad" it hired to mistreat the students during G20, and now it needs to find a way to pay for it. Gas'em, Mace'em, Tax'em. The Pittsburgh Way.
Besides, if the students are buying goods and services in the city, they are already paying their "fair share" in taxes. This is just plain stupid.
Ruby Neural Evolution of Augmenting Topologies
The majority of people support public health care according to every public poll that doesn't mention the mythical death panels, so you're wrong
in germany the students are complaining they have to pay 600€-800€ a year.
and thats all you have to pay to study in germany.
I know not wither to turn this a way or that a way, alas I must throw mine self upon the winds of porn!
Have you fscked your local propeller head today?
Unfortunately, I'm not being represented here. Perhaps my district is.. but the whole concept of taxation vs paying for your services rendered defeats the original purpose of freedom. I'm sure many will argue "what else would we do?". I'm afraid we will not find out due to our government system and tax system. It's stagnant and is at purposes of "we the people". I see your point about corporate america. Corporations too can stagnate..
Have you fscked your local propeller head today?
One of the problems with Pittsburgh is due to the way the city boundaries were laid out long ago. There are still many high (relatively) high paying jobs within in the city limits, but there are all these "magic lines" due to the dozens of municipalities and towns around the actual "city of Pittsburgh", so down-town workers move out to the areas where the taxes are lower. Yet many of these commuters still make "some" use of city services, or at least, indirectly benefit from things that exist only because of the downtown core. You don't have the same kind of problem in a place where the city boundaries are huge, effectively spanning the range of most daily commuters. The current situation leads to an incentive where the tax base and the users of the tax-funded infrastructure/entities no longer match-up. People who can move out of the city to lower taxes and better schools, city schools get worse, city property values go down, universities and hospitals buy up land on the cheap, city revenue goes down, cycle continues...
The real solution is to equalize the taxes in the downtown region and surrounding areas, but today that spans dozens of city governments. You should see the documentary about the problems with the regional sewer system - same basic root cause.
Disclosure: I am parent of a student in their final year at University of Pittsburgh, so that may color my view of some recent events.
The Pittsburgh Mayor and city police force apparently hate university students.
Remember this is the same city that on Friday September 20th 2009, decided it was ok to tests new weapons on pittsburgh students (many were first years, children imho), on the pretence of protecting the G20 (which was complete BS the conference had already ended, was located 3 miles away, and everyone had already departed towards the airport, which is in the opposite direction).
My personal Speculation:
Mayor (Luke Ravenstahl) and city police had already wasted much more money than this ridiculous and illegal new tax can raise, to hire several hundred mercenary cops from out of town, supposedly to "protect" the G20. Of course nothing much happened, despite desperate media attempts to hype a few broken windows, and a few simple minded trouble makers camped in a field or two. This was unfortunate from the viewpoint of the G20 organizers because now they had nothing to justify the huge cost for all the hired guns.
So, they needed a fundraiser, a show for the media, they also hated the fact that the students chose to protest the excessive violence used by the polcie against the "protesters"
So, late Friday night, hundreds of bored and poorly led mercenary cops targeted the students union on Forbes avenue as a handy place to victimize defenceless children; a cynical attack on legitimate criticism, no real physical risk, combined with a weapons test and fund raiser (An all round media win from their viewpoint).
This tiny protest could have been monitored peacably by two cops from the university police force.
Instead the jackbooted mercenarys incited unrest and trouble by marching hundred of cops in full riot gear down forbes avenue en-masse, then standing off and taunting the students via megaphones. These heavily armed heroes bravely surrounded the defenseless student union on Forbes avenue.
Naturally as on any normal Saturday night the Union has hundreds of students in the area (the residences for several universities and colleges are nearby) these mercenaries in riot gear proceeded to demand they dispersed (for no legal reason other than they had guns and the students didn't) while blocking many street exits.
These heavily armed uniformed protectors of the peace then proceeded to test new sound weapons on their student victims, lob tear gas, and then heroically grab any pretty young girls they fancied, so they could have a little fun while arresting them. Watch the videos online if you want to see an example of the disgraceful actions by police, it was a violent fascist display, it reminded me of the Nazi's. In case your wondering, no, my child was not there, having wisely chosen to avoid an obvious police trap.
In my humble opinion the Pittsburgh mayor and police should be thoroughly ashamed for the actions of the police force under their control and on their watch.
Now they want to tax the students to pay for their waste and abuses. They should resign or be simply fired.
The pathetic attempt to show there was value to the city from hosting the G20, and justification for hiring an army of thugs should be revealed for the sham it was. There may have been some value, a lot of effort was put into making the G20 work, but now after the attacks on the student's I guess the cops blew any good will that was generated.
If they do need to host these much hated international conferences, (personally I could care less, but some people clearly do hate them) why can't they host them on some easily protected remote island and avoid disrupting a major city. I hear there's a handy place called Guantanamo coming vacant, send the valued international leaders there!
One aspect of all this leadership vacuum that I personally found truly shocking was the weasely compliance of the Pittsburgh media to suck up and uncritically portray these events t
http://trueslant.com/laurieessig/2009/11/22/lessons-from-the-uc-student-protests/
open source sub sim. I might start coding again for this. http://dangerdeep.sourceforge.net/contribute/