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No More Fair-Price Refund For Declining XP EULA
mark0 writes "Getting a fair-price refund from Amazon or Asus after declining the Windows XP EULA appears to be a thing of the past. In contrast to reports from the US and the UK from earlier in the year, Amazon simply refuses and provides information to contact Microsoft. Asus is offering US$6. Despite being confronted with publicly available information about the real OEM price of Windows XP Home Edition being $US25-US$30, Asus replies, 'The refund price for the decline of the EULA is correct in it being US$6. This price unfortunately is not negotiable. I do apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused. Please be assured that it is not ASUS intentions to steer you away in any which way.'"
Why should they be given the wholesale price anyway? The markup the consumer pays is evenly divided among all parts of the computer; if the consumer gets a refund on any particular part, he should get a refund with the post-markup price.
Flawed analogy. And a very different issue. Your vehicle physically wears out, even just sitting there. Rubber gets brittle, hoses and belts crack, rust appears on all exposed metal parts. Normal use wears bearings, shafts, gears, cylinders, valves. Thus its value declines physically. Software is not like that at all. In fact, ASUS just sticks a sticker on and loads the software from a master. It's not like they take back your windows license and resell it as a "pre-owned" license. Rather they give you your $6 and then turn around and put a nice new version on a new computer and charge the full $45.
"Please be assured that it is not ASUS intentions to steer you away in any which way.'"
but they've definitely steered me away from Asus. I probably wouldn't have even bothered with trying to get a refund, but their dishonorable actions disgust me.
Even if it's just that sticker and license you hold, it still contains the value. If you decline it, you are not legally allowed to use the software.
Also to begin with you are not required to buy a computer that comes with Windows. Or you can read the EULA online before buying it. Or ask to read it in store.
Windows XP has started to lose its value because the support is discontinued, so the "software doesn't get old during time" doesn't fully hold.
The refund price for the decline of the EULA is correct in it being US$6. This price unfortunately is not negotiable...
So when I download XP off TPB or a similar site, they're going to sue me for $6 in damages? Yeah. Right.
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
This story has no link whatsoever to anything about ASUS. Of the two links on pricing, one is from June 15 2009, months before Windows 7 was released, while the other is an ancient article from fall 2006. How did this badly researched, apparent hoax of a story get to the frontpage?
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Actually, there is something similar that occurs in software, called "bit rot". The older a piece of software is, the more security vulnerabilities have likely been found in it, making it a bigger and bigger target so long as it is in continued use (obviously, now that Windows 9x's user base is about 3 dozen people, they're not much of a target anymore).
This is true of MacOS X, Linux and Windows. If you install a new copy of Fedora 8, you are going to have a ton more security patches to apply than a recent Fedora 12.
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You misread me. I never said you'd still be able to use Windows after getting a refund. Rather I was pointing out that no material goods change hands. They don't resell your license per se. They just invalidate it. Then they go on to sell XP on another machine for the full prices. So it's not like they are buying back an old license and then trying to resell it at some used market value. There is no used market involved at all.
So if the full price really is $45 today, then a refund should be just that. $45. Not $6. Depreciation has nothing to do with it.
It was released in 2001, 8 years ago.
A fairer and more broadly accpeptable calculation of how old XP is would be to determine the date large OEMs stopped shipping PCs with XP installed.
Put another way, from a consumer's perspective, XP is as old as his new computer. From a corporate perspective (both the cubicle-worker and the IT folks), XP is as old as the date testing was finished and deployment was given the go ahead.
If Asus are paying $6 for Windows XP OEM, then surely Microsoft is dumping their product on the market? Probably why they're including it in their netbooks in favour of Linux.
Dumping product? Convicted monopolist? I think that there's a good chance here that some netbook OS vendors have a case here to make an official complaint about anti-competitive predatory tactics by Microsoft.
Or the story is a load of rubbish.
Came here to see a car analogy, and only in the second post *walking away happy as a pig in mud*
Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine -- Robert C. Gallagher
I'd like to see which stores offer a $6 OEM option for buying XP licenses when you buy a bare motherboard.
Take them to small claims court instead. They'll quickly learn that it's cheaper to provide a full refund than to pay someone to show up in small claims court.
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The problem isn't that the license isn't available pre-purchase, but that it isn't mentioned pre-purchase. A lot of this could be avoided if the laptops at Best Buy had little stickers on them that stated "The software on this computer is subject to an EULA that limits your rights. Ask a sales associate for a copy of the EULA prior to purchase."
But Slashdot told me it's zero!
A WinXP system is never just WinXP, it's also a boat load of crapware that the crapware authors have paid the manufacturer to bundle in. So ASUS is actually right in their math:
Option 1: Keep XP. No change in price.
Option 2: Refund XP: +$50. Also refund crapware: -$44. Net refund to user: $6.
So what happens when its advertised as coming with $200 worth of software?
The MS EULA says you get a full refund and I bet the other software does too.
If they offer you $6 it would be false advertising.
Here are six great options, ZaReason, Inc: Building Linux hardware so you don't have to
Here are six more: System 76 laptops
Did you even try to look? Most people do not even try.
The biggest mistake any consumer of PCs, laptops, towers, etc can make today is to buy any hardware from a vendor who does not understand and do Linux. This goes for all the big box stores and even Dell, they only pay a passing glance to Linux and do not really do it right, as experienced by Linux being buried down in their website and not prominently marketed on their main page from the start.
If you are foolish enough to purchase from anyone but a Linux hardware computer builder, you will be frustrated with needless vendor lock-in issues meant only to keep you a Microsoft Windows users, period.
Here is the rub, Every Linux PC can run Windows. Because of Vendor Lock-In, not every Windows PC can run Linux.
Even the most devout Windows / Microsoft FAN can NOT deny that simple fact!
Moral of story: Eventually a proprietary company will STOP supporting what you purchased attempting you to pay more for new equipment. Your only choice for that older, yet very useful, hardware is to KNOW you can run Linux (any distro, there are many). Even if you do not want to run Linux, by purchasing hardware that will, you will be in a position to donate that older hardware to non profits that will get Linux up and running and donate it to third world countries so children can learn.
There is NO downside to purchasing hardware from a Linux vendor. There are almost ALWAYS vendor lock-in hardware issues from any of the big box stores and anyone who only does Microsoft.
Use the two vendors ZaReason or System 76 above, you will be glad you did, and you will help out children in third world countries one day when you upgrade your hardware, as the hardware your purchased will run Linux.
The Apple Store.
If I could rearrange the keyboard, I'd put U and I together.
So, you think that if you were to buy something today (a couch, a table, a pair of pants) that was first marketed 15 years ago, that you should get a depreciated refund if you returned it?
Spam was first marketed more than fifteen years ago, and the price has gone up. I do not think that word means what you think it means. Either you want the word "sold" or you're way the hell off in left field. They're still shipping XP, so clearly it's a current product, and you should get the full value for it.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
At least they didn't say "Wait, it says 'Press F12 for more information'" like the call center drone I talked to yesterday (not related to ASUS or this issue.)
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Did you read the parent post? He said there were online vendors, but no local shops. You posted online vendors... I do agree with the reasoning after, however.
...it is now up to the manufacturer to decide whether they will give you a refund or tell you to return the PC, just look at MS EULA page.
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There is no #$@&% sunshine at this time of year where I live, you insensitive clod!
:)
We make up for it with 30 consecutive 2-minutes hate in each and every hour
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
Ones where you have to agree to an end user license agree that states " IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL, COPY, OR USE THE SOFTWARE; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND, IF APPLICABLE." Windows XP EULA
Surely Microsoft's license doesn't apply to all the components, but it specifically says you can get a refund from where you purchased the software. Companies don't want to honor the Windows EULA? Don't sell computers with Windows.
I love it that 'the obey the law no matter what' types go on and on about not pirating software and not infringing on copyright but when it's a big large corporation not giving you a refund, its different. When they short change you - very mysteriously its 'not stealing'. How very magical! I call it the 'Powerful corporations can never steal law'. How about we apply the same draconian penalties that we apply to copyright infringes to companies who don't issue refunds when the end users reject the UELA. How about we send them to jail as well?
Maybe as well if they claim that the cost of Windows XP is only $6 they need to show some evidence that they actually only paid $6 for it!
BTW the restocking fee is bulls###. They don't need to physically get back anything from you. They just invalidate the license. Besides here is quote from the EULA. Its says nothing about a restocking fee.
"YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE SOFTWARE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL, COPY, OR USE THE SOFTWARE; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND, IF APPLICABLE."
A more likely explanation is that Asus pays just $6 per XP netbook license. They will refund their expense, not the cost of an OEM licence at Amazon.
"The software on this computer is subject to an EULA that limits your rights. Ask a sales associate for a copy of the EULA prior to purchase."
I'd go a step further - I should not be able to complete the purchase without explicitly agreeing to the contract. If they sell me something without me first agreeing to additional terms, then I should just be constrained by the statutory license.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
At a conference on the west coast, an industry insider told me that MS basically gave ASUS XP for free (as part of a deal to FUD Linux). That means that ASUS may be loosing money on this "refund".
Oh, and it also means that ASUS will sell out easily, which makes me interested in ignoring their products.
You're talking about an OS that has gotten its third Service Pack only about a year ago and that still gets patches. To say it's 8 years old based on the release date of the release of its first iteration is misleading.
Putting the EULA on a website is irrelevant - it's still only presented to people after purchase.
By your logic, MS owe me a million dollars, because the EULA on my website says that's what MS agree to do if they sell me any software. It's no good telling me they weren't aware of the EULA, they should've read my website, or asked to read it when I bought it in the store...
A DIY system build with the Open Source OS of your choice is by far the best route to avoid the Microsoft Tax. I put trying to get a refund for Windows after the fact right up there with mail-in rebates and free upgrade coupons -- in other words, I would not take it into consideration when making a purchasing decision, because I am not going to count on actually getting it. As often as not the vendor (or their hired-gun fulfillment company) will try to screw you, and you're left trying to explain the situation to the Nice Man in India who has no incentive to actually help you.
"What works for me had better work for all of you!"
Here are six great options, ZaReason, Inc: Building Linux hardware so you don't have to [zareason.com]
Did you even try to look? Most people do not even try.
Did you even try to look? Three out of six are out of stock...
A 1005HA with Windows 7 starter on Amazon.com: US$336. Same system with Windows XP Home: US$312. Difference: US$24. Subtract that from the US$50 estimate OEM price in the ars technica article and the remainder would be the price Asus is charging for XP home: US$26.
Flawed analogy. And a very different issue. Your vehicle physically wears out, even just sitting there. Rubber gets brittle, hoses and belts crack, rust appears on all exposed metal parts. Normal use wears bearings, shafts, gears, cylinders, valves. Thus its value declines physically. Software is not like that at all. In fact, ASUS just sticks a sticker on and loads the software from a master. It's not like they take back your windows license and resell it as a "pre-owned" license. Rather they give you your $6 and then turn around and put a nice new version on a new computer and charge the full $45.
I'm sorry, but software does lose value over time. The value of Photoshop 2.0 is not equal to the value of photoshop CS3. Photoshop 2.0 isn't even worth it's original MSRP because more advanced packages have been developed. Going back to car analogies, if I maintain a 2000 Ford taurus to be at the exact condition it was when I bought it new it still won't be worth the price I paid for it back in 2000. Newer technology makes older technology less valuable.
"Educate the mind but never at the expense of the soul."~Blessed Basil Moreau
Maybe you could return the sticker & get a refund on the sticker?
One small advantage to British / Australian law :- You can't "sign away" your rights. Thus the default consumer protection rights still bind the vendor - things like "fitness for purpose" etc.
EULA's are a joke, they're equivalent to a post-sale condition on the contract of sale - and if tested they would be found to be in breech of contact law - namely that you can't add clauses to a contract after the fact.
Put another way, they're an entrapment - they threaten to prevent you from using *your* legitimately purchased item if you do not agree to their terms - this is called coercion, and is another reason for EULA's to be invalid - that a contract agreed to under coercion is invalid.
If you read the EULA's closely, what they are asking you to agree to is to waive the default consumer protections enshrined in law. Along the lines of "don't expect this product to do anything useful, you're agreeing not to hold us responsible when it wastes your time repeatedly and/or breaks your hardware and/or deletes your data. Your license to run this software simply means we won't prosecute you for having it - you agree that you have paid for this and not an item fit for any particular purpose. We have your money now, in return for a promise and about $5 worth of plastic/paper. ha ha ha."
I believe that if software is a product, it should be held to the same standards as *everything* else that money can buy. Otherwise it's much more fair to pay for programming as a service, a model that OSS encourages. If you paid for it, then whoever you paid has an obligation to *have done* a competent job to construct what you paid for. MicroSoft to date has not done this - they have been the example of an apparently successful software engineering company that ignores all engineering practice and standards, and have largely succeeded by not having been called up on this. *Engineering* is, after all, much more expensive than getting technician-level people to just throw together something that sometimes works.
Why sit around and debate what the proper value of a refund is for a Windows license when you dont want it anyway? What happened to voting with your dollars? Do you want HP, Gateway, Toshiba, and Sony to sell Linux systems? Then buy a machine that comes with an "alternate" OS! I am typing this on my Dell Mini 9 netbook running Linux. I ordered it from them so I could cast a vote for alternate operating systems on new machines. I wiped the Dell Linux (old ubuntu w/ Dell launcher) and loaded UNR, but I wanted my vote to count. Yes, my desktop runs Windows and that is the right OS for the tasks that I do. Linux is the right OS for my little travel machine. I eventually chose another distro, but Dell sold a PC with Linux and got positive feedback from a customer. I actually liked the HP machine a little better, but wanted to support Linux by recording a sale, and I have no regrets. Canonical rewarded me with UNR 9.1 which is most excellent! So, want to thumb your nose at the big boys? Stop supporting them, there are many vendors out there with alternate choices. Vote with your Dollar!
That is entirely not what bit rot means. The canonical definition is here. You may be referring to software rot, but it doesn't really mean that either, since both refer to software that hasn't been used for a while and obviously does not apply to Windows.
The only minor point is that it tends to work out a lot cheaper to buy a PC with windows pre-installed than it is to buy a Linux box and an off-the-shelf copy of Windows to install on it.
If you want a Windows PC then it makes good monetary sense to buy it pre-installed. Not good hardware sense, as you point out, but that's still a compelling reason for the masses to ignore your good advice.