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Dell Defect Turning 2.2GHz CPU Into 100MHz CPU?
jtavares2 writes "In what is being dubbed Throttlegate, scores of users on many message boards have been complaining about nexplicably aggressive throttling policies on their Dell Latitude E6500 and E6400 laptops which cause their CPUs to be throttled to less than 5% of their theoretical maximums even while at room temperatures. In many cases, the issue can be triggered just by playing a video or performing some other trivial, but CPU intensive, task. After being banned [PDF] from the Dell Forums for revealing 'non-public information,' one user went so far as to write and publish a 59-page report [PDF] explaining and diagnosing the throttling problem in incredible detail. Dell seems to be silent on the issue, but many users are hoping for a formal recall."
Comes a bit slower at 100 MHz. I'll probably get second or third, damn Dell laptop.
Hope they're scourged thoroughly.
:-)
I'd happily scour a user.
If I had an Ass, I'd call it Fanny Bottom, then I could slap my Ass; Fanny Bottom, on the Arse.
I click on the link and well, I think it's being hosted by one of these Dells
It's NOT me! It's the meds! I'm on 1000mg of Fukitol.
Seriously, just STFU.
"I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
I hear Dell is planning to issue a complimentary turbo button for any user experiencing the problem.
Energy Star Compliance at it's Best.
Here is a mirror of the PDF: mirror. It was put up by the guy who discovered this, I'm just copying the link.
User/password is "guest" and "guest".
Be warned, it's about 25MB.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
I had a pre-release e-series machine from Dell on my desk last year. It's like they built the thing from the outside-in. Even on a 'release' E6500, Ubuntu seems to halt and die on full-screen video, Windows AHCI drivers that work everywhere else cause BSODs, and the power management firmware seems like it was written by a roomful of meth-addicted monkeys.
I've never been more disappointed with Dell as I was with the E6500. At least when the Optiplex GX260 power supplies all failed a few years ago, it was easy enough to fix them. These things are abhorrent.
"Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails
At least the batteries will last for 50 hours.
Better known as 318230.
That would be "scores of users", assuming submitter meant to indicate a number equaling or greater than a multiple of twenty. Of course it's hard to say really, as the link provided (the "many message boards" link which links to a single message board) doesn't say anything remotely resembling the claims of the submitter -- it's people complaining about "freeze/lockup".
Caveat Utilitor
you just have to hit the turbo button! Duh!
Monstar L
Windows 7 on a blazing fast 100mhz CPU. Suck on that /.ers. And hey it does Aero too! At least I think it does, bought mine last week and just got to the login screen.
I called their Pro Tech support to help diagnose a very similar issue. The CPU's were running at 6-700Mhz. I spent 45 min on the phone with them until I finally found a forum explaining it had to do with the Intel SpeedStep feature. When you go into the BIOS, go to Performance, SpeedStep, and disable it. They said thanks, added to their Knowledge Base and gave us one more reason to get away from them.
Here's a post on Dell's forums describing the issue
From the link:
Some key points from the report (keep in mind this is specifically for the E6500 with the NVIDIA graphics option, but much of this likely applies to the E6400 and/or the Intel integrated graphics option):
1. The problem is NOT an overheating problem - the system simply does not overheat. It is due to premature and overly aggressive attempts at thermal control, invoked at what are NORMAL processor operating temperatures (65-80 Celsius), possibly due to faulty ACPI "passive cooling" parameter definitions and/or control methods.
2. The problem is substantially more pronounced when the system is docked.
3. The problem is aggravated somewhat by the use of dual monitors when docked as opposed to a single monitor.
4. Since the problem is all about temperature, the higher the surrounding ambient temperature in the room, the sooner and the greater the performance loss.
5. The symptoms are much more highly correlated to elevated NVIDIA GPU temperature than elevated CPU core temperatures.
Some miscellaneous corollaries:
1. Any blockage of air inlets or outlets (including, of course, dust) will aggravate the problem.
2. The reason people report shockingly high percent CPU utilization statistics when their system slows down is that the overall capacity of their processor is degraded by the throttling mechanisms. The same processes running on a CPU that is subsequently throttled necessarily will demand a higher percentage of the processor's remaining capacity.
3. The reason some folks report persistent slowness even after installing software to prevent CPU downclocking is that more than one throttling mechanism is in play here. In particular, Software-controlled Clock Modulation (also called On-Demand Clock Modulation) occurs in an almost completely invisible manner, as opposed to performance state changes (which are usually monitored by common utilities). Another often-invisible throttling mechanism is Dynamic FSB Frequency Switching (where the FSB frequency is slashed in half), though if you prevent performance state changes, that takes care of preventing this too (since it's part of state P3).
4. The reason there aren't more complaints (though many are accumulating these days) is that users who experience this problem simply have no way of knowing what the cause is and are likely to blame the wrong thing (Windows, recently installed software, cooling hardware, etc.). Untold masses may be adversely affected by this problem, but nearly all of them wouldn't know it because there's no way for them to tell. Also, the problem is at its worst only when in a docked configuration, which may not be common.
5. The reason complaints are escalating now more than before is that this is the first summer that people have had this system (in the Northern Hemisphere, anyway). I think it's safe to say that ambient temperatures are higher for most E6400/E6500 users now.
6. The problem can be substantially mitigated by pointing an external fan at the system.
7. The problem can also be mitigated by software, such as RMClock, that can override the throttling mechanisms in question, at the expense of negating all passive thermal management (though critical temperature shutdown mechanisms may remain in place).
Actually this used to happen to me on my old Inspiron (think, 4 years old). It has a 1.6 Ghz 1st gen. Pentium M, but most of the time my sys info would report it running at only 800 mhz, even though the processor was maxed out, and the system was completely cold, etc. The only way to get back to full performance was to plug in, and even that wasn't foolproof. Really pissed me off that there was no setting for "don't regulate my damn processor when I need it most, even if you are just saving my battery."
Step 4: Lawyers profit, everyone else gets $5 off at the Dell shop.
"Anonymous could not immediately be reached for further comment." - International Business Times
I didn't have any problems until I installed Windows 7.
So do I get this right? As soon as I actually need my CPU to do some work, it starts to slow down? While it's quite able to run at full speed as long as it's idle and not doing anything sensible?
Computers get more and more human every day.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Non-public information? How can such a thing exist on a commodity good that has already been released to the public, and especially when they are trying to cover up a defect which renders their product offering as fraudulent (because it doesn't work as advertised) and not fit for sale? Did they expect this to NOT blow up publicly when they ignored user complaints?
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
Is just the perceived speed of Windows Vista running at 2.2Ghz
People get too excited about product recalls. It just means the manufacturer has to eliminate or at least mitigate the failure. In this case, Dell will issue Firmware A.02 or whatever and the problem will vanish. Not a big deal.
I've had a lot of product recalls in my life because I drive a car and I have a baby. Apart from a few rare instances from Kodak and Honda, this doesn't mean the consumer gets a full refund and all of the products wind up in a landfill.
Often in Error, Never in Doubt.
Here's a mirror of the files. I only have the first file so far, but I will add the other one once it works: http://www.sigmirror.com/browse/admin/4438_NOr20
http://www.tuxguides.com
I am frome the 17th cenchurie, ande the worde is moste deffinetlie "scowers."
In my 15+ year history of dealing with Dell, getting them to admit fault is near impossible. I've been through quite a few such incidents and I have to say, I may never forgive Dell for the Optiplex GX270 SFF. If they would just be a responsible company and fix their mistakes openly I might consider doing business with them again some day.
"To err is human, to mod Funny divine."
Dell has aggressive CPU throttling in the BIOS. I have an Inspiron 6400 w/ Core 2 Duo 1.83ghz. In XP, Vista, and 7, it would throttle way the heck down and not turn the fan all the way up. Because the fan was annoying. It would go down to around 200mhz.
I fixed it in software by installing RMClock and i8kspeedfan. But my computer was usually around 55 and went up to 65 playing HD video, and the fan would kick in, and suddenly it's really loud.
Also helped to get one of those cooling pads with a fan in it.
So I took apart my laptop. There were 1" thick sheets of dust between the processor and graphics coolers and then between them and the output duct.
Cleaning them out, put it back together, now at full speed it rarely goes over 55. The BIOS throttling that kicks in at 70C or 75C or so hasn't come on since the software fix. Don't even need the Targus cool-pad anymore.
So basically, Dell builds a system with inadequate cooling, that is disabled from maximum speed even when system policy is set that way, and instead throttles you down in the BIOS 'til you can't even move the mouse until it cools down. No option to allow the fan to go to full-speed, no way to do it except 3rd-party software, and really darned loud when it happens.
It must've sucked to have a 2.3GHz in this thing...
Business systems.
Systems intended for business use generally come with a 3 year warranty, which increases the quality of the system. If they know it will be their responsibility to fix it if it goes bing in 2.5 years, they must make a more robust system. You will have to pay a little more, but it's worth it.
I use to own a Dell Inspiron 5150 that had to have a motherboard replaced out of warranty. (I've since given it to my wife as she is a lighter user and it'll probably last longer with her). The most likely cause is a known but never acknowledged issue where with normal use the case wears against a component on the motherboard severing it. It's not the first such issue I've heard of.
My current laptop is a Dell Inspiron 9400. I got it when they were giving away 3 years warranty for no extra cost. I'm so glad I did. I have had 2 hard disks replaced. (Issue finally fixed when I insisted on a different brand). I have had a hinge fixed after it broke (no misuse or abnormal use). I've had 2 screens replaced because they developed large dust bunnies behind the screen. I've had the CPU fan jam. It also has a habit of randomly taking 2 minutes to progress through the boot screen. No idea why. Dealing with warranty has been a hassle - worst experience was when they didn't show up for 3 appointments in a row. My wife or I had to be home to deal with it and then they wouldn't show up. The 3rd time they tried to arrange a technician that was 6 hours away at around 8pm. Well that wasn't going to work. But at least I didn't have to pay for parts for this machine. It's still my last Dell though.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
As a newly hired Dell Tech support employee starting his 2nd day at work in about 9 hours, I have a feeling tomorrow is going to be a looong day.
My MacBook Pro can melt the skin off my legs AND boil a pot of water, all without the slightest dip in performance.
I'd rather let a thousand guilty men go free than chase after them.
I have the same setup e6400 with an Nvidia Quadro NVS 160M running Ubuntu.
Here is how I detected the problem. Add a CPU frequency governor applet to one of your taskbars. If you choose the "performance" governor profile with the applet, and your CPU scales down to 800Mhz on occasion, then you are experiencing this problem. You can also use the gkrellm application to monitor CPU, mobo ambient, and GPU temperatures.
I've been monitoring the ambient temperature in my cube at work, and the temperature never goes more than a few degrees over room temperature. However the system begins running too hot, and scales down, for no obvious reason at all. A cooling pad or laptop stand, has mitigated the problem for the most part.
The problem is very noticeable when a laptop with 4 Gb of RAM, and dual ~2.5Ghz CPUs, suddenly starts acting like it is running on a 486.
/^([Ss]ame [Bb]at (time, |channel.)){2}$/
From the north are ye?
Lots of planets have a north I hear.
I drank what? -- Socrates
I click on the link and well, I think it's being hosted by one of these Dells
At the end of one of the forums, someone links to a mirror. You can find the report here:
http://www.sigmirror.com/files/44490_iweoz/throttlegate.pdf
It really isn't that hard to build a PC yourself. That is the ONLY route I would go for a desktop. You should try it. The very fact that you read/post on /. makes you qualified.
Now, building a laptop yourself does not really buy you much. Yes, there are companies out there that sell a "bare-bones" laptop, but that really means that you get to decide how much RAM and what speed processor you want.
I have no real 1st hand experience (the last "laptop" that I purchased was an Acer netbook that I like), but Toshiba laptops tend to get great reviews (I loved the one that I had 10 years ago). Maybe you should start there.
"-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
I added a giant blob of silver paste
Too much thermal paste is a Bad Idea. In fact, it's counter-productive.
Use a very thin layer. There is about twenty times too much thermal paste in the little tubes that come with heatsinks and CPU's, and people who use all of it are defeating the purpose.
If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
Don't fucking buy Dell. I thought everyone knew that.
In before corporate purchase. Fire the guy who OK'd it!
I want my Cowboyneal
I know everyone, I'm sorry.. I noticed my spelling mistake right after hitting 'submit' but it was too late. The right word must have been missing from my head... SCORES SCORES SCORES SCORES
Even though I first started figuring this out 5 months ago (and others have been complaining about it online since late 2008) this is STILL an unresolved problem, at least for the E6500 (I don’t have an E6400 I can test with).
New information since my report:
1. Not only is the CPU deliberately throttled, but if it’s warm enough, even the GPU is severely throttled (for the E6500 systems that have the optional discrete NVIDIA Quadro NVS 160M - I don’t have an integrated Intel graphics model to test).
2. It’s definitely a BIOS issue – if they would just unhoark the ACPI code that (secretly) cripples the system so easily, it would save incalculable frustration (and resentment) among Dell’s users.
3. I’ve been relentlessly trying to work with Dell to get this fixed. No dice so far. I’m currently working with a Team Lead at Dell’s Round Rock, TX “Resolution Expert Center” (REC). I had to go through 2 of their staff before I even got someone who understood the problem (they weren’t very “expert”). Before that, I probably talked to about 15 various tech support folks before they would even escalate to the REC.
Nailing this thing down and trying to get it fixed has been an epic journey so far. It’s fascinating to me how far Dell has fallen (that’s part of why I’m so interested in following up on this). I used to be a huge Dell fan back in the day when they kicked butt. These days they’ve lost their way. They continue to lose market share (they’ve given up their #2 spot in worldwide PC sales to Acer recently, having already given up the #1 spot to HP). Meanwhile they’re selling corporate-class desktop-replacement “performance” laptops that will deliberately and secretly cripple themselves into utter uselessness at warmish room temperatures. And they can’t/won’t fix the problem even months after it’s pointed out to them in excruciating clinical detail. No wonder they’re losing their core business. Instead they idly ponder selling mobile phones in China. Sheesh.
Here's a couple snippets from recent communication with my contact at Dell:
“I'd like draw your attention to how Dell portrays this system in its
printed catalog: "pure business performance designed for the most
demanding applications" (p. 27, October 2009, key code 65051).
I'm not sure whether the same verbiage was used back when I bought the
system last year, but it was clear that this was not a "budget" model - it
was the new, top-of-the-line dockable executive desktop replacement system
with a price tag of about $2000 including the dock. I still hold the
conviction that a "performance" system "designed for the most demanding
applications" should not ever cripple its own processing power within its
specified operating environment (and in particular should not do so
secretly). But can we at least get to the point where it throttles the
same way docked as it does undocked and sitting on a table?”
“In my last two positions in IT management, going back to 1995, Dell was
pretty much all I would buy and I was a big fan. I always gave my bosses
dockable Dell laptops. But if I was an IT manager and found out that my
boss's $2000 executive performance laptop slowed to a crawl when he tried
to work from his porch at home, and I went through the long hours of
tracking this well-hidden problem down only to discover that Dell was
doing this on purpose and, effectively, in secret, you can be damn sure I
would never make the mistake of buying a Dell laptop again and I would
look with a wary sideways glance at any other Dell system as well.
Honestly.”
"In many cases, the issue can be triggered just by playing a video"
I bought this laptop to watch porn. Now what am I supposed to do with it, read slashdot or update my facebook with "no porn for me today :("
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
We’re aware of concerns raised in this thread. At this point, our teams are looking into the details. When we have more information to share, we’ll update customers via a post on Dell’s blog, Direct2Dell. Thanks, Bill B. Dell Social Media and Community