eBay vs. Craigslist Courtroom Fisticuffs Start Today

davekleiman writes with news that former eBay chief exec Meg Whitman took the stand today to kick off the battle that has been brewing between Craigslist and eBay. The waters are further clouded by Whitman's upcoming bid for governor of California. "eBay wants to shed light on the 'coercive plan' that it has said Newmark hatched with Craigslist Chief Executive Jim Buckmaster to dilute eBay's ownership stake, ultimately stripping eBay of its seat on the Craigslist board. Craigslist has hit back that eBay used its board seat to glean information to launch its own classified site, Kijiji. Craigslist also claims that eBay used deceptive tactics to direct traffic away from its site."

Comments

Cross Ownership

[Akido37]

It always struck me as a little weird that major competitors should have a seat on the board.

It would be like Microsoft having a board seat at Apple. Or Google at Microsoft. It just doesn't happen.

What made eBay and Craigslist different? Or think they were different?

Re:Cross Ownership

[MightyMartian]

What made eBay and Craigslist different? Or think they were different?

It's easier to find prostitutes on Craigslist.

Re:Cross Ownership

[Trepidity]

It does happen in some industries, and the law on it is pretty complex and murky (and varies by country). When it's below a certain threshold, so the minority stake doesn't exercise control over the company, and has representation basically only to ensure its rights as a minority shareholder are respected, it's considered a "passive investment" and not subject to the usual antitrust scrutiny that would ensue if, say, eBay actually tried to buy Craigslist (or buy a stake considered controlling). A lot of economists are a bit skeptical of just how passive such passive investments are, though. The keywords +"passive investment" +competitors bring up a whole pile of writing on the subject...

Re:Cross Ownership

[FooAtWFU]

They have a competitor on the board since the competitor elected itself to the board with all the shares which they bought. No one but this competitor is happy with this setup.

Re:Cross Ownership

[BeardedChimp]

Or even weirder, say having MPs on the board of private companies whose modus operandi directly conflicts with protecting the public... oh wait that does happen. Patricia Hewitt et al.

Re:Cross Ownership

[bberens]

They have a competitor on the board since the competitor elected itself to the board with all the shares which they bought. No one but this competitor is happy with this setup.

Clarification... No one but a significant owner (who just happens to be a competitor) is happy with this setup. It sounds like a diet form of hostile takeover.

Re:Cross Ownership

[stephanruby]

It would be like Microsoft having a board seat at Apple.

Microsoft did have a seat at Apple. It had to. If Apple had faltered, the Feds would have broken up Microsoft. Believe it or not, Microsoft tried really hard to keep Apple alive (during its non-Steve Jobs days).

Same goes with VISA and Mastercard, except there the threat was explicitly stated (in the case of Microsoft, the threat was implicit), the Feds ordered that both boards of VISA and MasterCard share board members (forcing its larger member banks to have membership in both), which in hindsight was a bad idea, now instead of having one monopoly called VISA International, now VISA and Mastercard are two monopolies that pretty much march in sync with each other (that the Feds don't really want to complain about, since it was basically their miscalculation that made the mess even bigger).

What made eBay and Craigslist different? Or think they were different?

Craigslist has large private investors. It's not a publicly traded company. If Microsoft tries going after Google. Microsoft would have to notify Google as soon as it accumulates 5% of the company. Plus, also the Feds would almost certainly block any attempt from Microsoft to get any board seat on Google.

And in the case of Google and Apple, the Google board member actually resigned from Apple's board citing conflicts of interests. Initially, the Google guy would just seat out the parts of the discussion on the board that involved the competing business units. Personally, I doubt Ebay gave the same courtesy to Craigslist, since Craigslist has essentially only one business unit and only twelve employees.

Kijiji?

[FrankSchwab]

OK, I use Ebay a lot, and Craigslist even more, and this is the first time I've ever heard of Kijiji.

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kijiji) says it's been up since 2007 in the US.

Sounds like an epic failure to me. I wonder if it carries any Zune ads?

Re:Kijiji?

[ArsonSmith]

I was about to post a dupe of your post. Checked out Kijiji.com and there doesn't seem to be anything there???

Epic failure indeed.

Re:Kijiji?

[KraftDinner]

Kijiji is far from a huge failure. Many people who are power posters on Craigslist also post on Kijiji because Kijiji's user base is quite large.

Re:Kijiji?

[ArhcAngel]

Spoken like a true eBay shareholder.

Re:Kijiji?

[FrankSchwab]

I live in Phoenix.

Doing a quick and unscientific test, the Phoenix Kijiji site has 37 for-sale listings posted for Saturday, Sunday, and Today.

The Phoenix Craigslist site has 1200 for-sale listings in the last 45 MINUTES.

At least for my location, I think Kijiji qualifies as an "Epic failure".

Re:Kijiji?

[HybridJeff]

Its a regional thing, apparently more people use Kijiji where my brother lives than Craigslist (Belleville, Ontario).

Re:Kijiji?

[lytfyre]

Kijiji is actually quite big in most of Ontario. As far as I've seen, Toronto is about the only place where Craigslist is bigger than Kijiji.
This is really irritating, as Kijiji is stuffed with adertising, tries to upsell you for higher placement, etc. etc.
not sure why it happened in the first place, but it's the state of things.

watching rich people fight

[Anonymous Coward]

is like watching NASCAR: people with nothing better to do with their time or money than to go around in circles for hours over something only they care about, all the while taking money from poor people who are too dumb to not want to pay for vicarious participation.

Re:watching rich people fight

[Daniel_Staal]

In some sports they go in straight lines.

Re:watching rich people fight

[Sponge Bath]

NASCAR would be cooler if half the cars went one direction, half in the opposite direction. Geeks would love it because it resembles the LHC. Oooh! Look at those particles!

Re:watching rich people fight

[Knara]

Some sports are more obviously modern replacements for warfare, allowing us to indulge in human emotional conflict with little real consequence.

And unlike the older practice of watching actual battles, the spectators are much less likely to be killed as a result of watching :)

(except in NASCAR... maybe...)

Microsoft?

[KraftDinner]

I always thought Kijiji was owned by Microsoft.

In Smaller Markets, Kijiji Dominates

[brunes69]

Craigslist is big in large markets, but in small markets, no one uses it. Kijiji rules the roost in small markets.

IE in my homedown, of about 100,000 people, there are less than 200 posts right now in craigslist ForSale section.

Kijiji has over 24,000.

It is because of the classic dillema that keeps users on Craigslist (despite it being a steamping pile of crap), and keeps people on eBay (despite them charging a fortune). People searching need a critical mass of people selling, and people selling need a critical mass of people searching. It is a self-renforcing monopoloy that is a tough nut to crack.

Craigslist has always been unpopular in small markets, that is where Kijiji got its foothold.

Re:In Smaller Markets, Kijiji Dominates

[MoxFulder]

It is because of the classic dillema that keeps users on Craigslist (despite it being a steamping pile of crap), and keeps people on eBay (despite them charging a fortune). People searching need a critical mass of people selling, and people selling need a critical mass of people searching. It is a self-renforcing monopoloy that is a tough nut to crack.

Craigslist has always been unpopular in small markets, that is where Kijiji got its foothold.

This makes no sense at all. Why would Craigslist benefit from the network effect, but not Kijiji?

Example: We have a huge, active Craigslist in DC. By contrast, Kijiji has practically nothing. On the other hand, my hometown of Lansing, Michigan has a small and anemic Craigslist. Not many postings in the for sale section, for instance. The Kijiji site for Lansing is also very sparse.

So I don't get it... I can't actually find a specific small-town environment in which Kijiji actually has an advantage. Can anyone suggest a specific one? I also don't know of any marketing or technical reason why Kijiji would have gotten a foothold where Craigslist hasn't...

Re:In Smaller Markets, Kijiji Dominates

[schon]

I can't actually find a specific small-town environment in which Kijiji actually has an advantage. Can anyone suggest a specific one?

http://edmonton.en.craigslist.ca/
http://edmonton.kijiji.ca/

In every comparable category I've checked, Kijiji has more activity (usually by an order of magnitude.) For example "Computers" - Kijiji has 17 ads in the last hour, Craigslist has 3 for the whole day. (And that's not counting "Computer accessories" which only exists in Kijiji.) "Motorcycles" - Kijiji has 31 posts so far today, Craigslist has 3. "Furniture" - Kijiji has 27 posts in the last hour, Craigslist has 4 for the day.

Every other category I've checked is similar.. Kijiji is just *way* more popular in Edmonton.

Re:In Smaller Markets, Kijiji Dominates

[LandDolphin]

I wonder if Edmonton, Ca is an anomaly.

Re:In Smaller Markets, Kijiji Dominates

[Wyatt Earp]

Here in Anchorage Alaska there is nothing up on Kijiji (14 sales). Same went for where I used to live, a small market (Skagit county Washington).

For all of South Dakota there are 29 things for sale on Kijiji and hundreds of sales on Craigslist for today alone.

So I'm not sold on Kijiji "ruling the roost" in small markets.

Re:In Smaller Markets, Kijiji Dominates

[SoTerrified]

Wonder if it's a Canada thing? I live in a Canadian city that has pretty similar stats to Edmonton. And likewise, Kijiji > Craigslist.

Re:In Smaller Markets, Kijiji Dominates

[KraftDinner]

I think Kijiji is bigger in Canada, but I have no stats to back up my claim. Just speaking with friends and family. Even my non-technical family have heard of Kijiji and not Craigslist.

Re:In Smaller Markets, Kijiji Dominates

[voodoowizard]

Wow, in my town of around 30,000 and the surrounding town where the sites actually point to(Total pop just over 100,000). There is nothing on kijiji. Craigslist dominates here for sure. When the site was launched I heard about it but soon forgot. Heck there is even an auction site based out of my town and I can't find anything on it, worse than kijiji here as far as users. Just my experiences, ya know, not scientific.

Re:In Smaller Markets, Kijiji Dominates

[TubeSteak]

So Kijiji is eBay's Canadian girlfriend?
That explains why no one here knows her, but eBay still talks about her all the time.

Re:In Smaller Markets, Kijiji Dominates

[BobMcD]

So if we have more Craigslist than Kijiji we get to call ourselves a big city? Woot!

As of now the December 7th tallies in all of 'for sale' are roughly -

Craigslist - 2100

Kijiji - 4 (yes, four)

Population - Roughly 450,000 for the entire multi-county area

Re:In Smaller Markets, Kijiji Dominates

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably. Kijiji is a much sillier name than craigslist, so it's natural for the site to appeal more to Canadians.

Re:In Smaller Markets, Kijiji Dominates

[PitaBred]

Take off you hoser

ebay is now just evil

[Dan667]

Craigslist was not selling ownership and ebay bought it from a former Craigslist Employee through a suspicious deal. After how ebay has made numerous decisions at the expense of their users it is hard to believe that they would complain when someone tries to correct something they should not have done in the first place.

Re:ebay is now just evil

[Duhfus]

More specifically, a former executive at Craigslist (suspected to be Philip Knowlton), who owned a significant chunk of Craigslist stock, decided to sell his share and shopped around. This was how ebay got ownership: http://www.craigslist.org/about/press/ebay.stake/

Re:ebay is now just evil

[Trepidity]

I might be missing something, but that doesn't sound particularly suspicious to me. Someone who owned a stake of Craigslist sold it; isn't that basically how stakes in companies work?

Re:ebay is now just evil

[Tubal-Cain]

IIRC, there are special exceptions for companies that are not publicly traded.

Dirty Pool

[Anonymous Coward]

This sounds like dirty pool all the way around.

1). Decided to Create competing site
2). Buy shares from a shareholder to gain a seat on the board
3). (possibly) use information gleaned from meetings of the board towards own good
4). (possibly) use seat on board to negatively influence decisions

As others have mentioned there is certainly a conflict of interest here and while Ebay has every right to own shares, sitting on the board is just unethical and its surprising that the other shareholders would stand for it....

Re:Seems like a small pond, but eBay is right

[FooAtWFU]

Antitrust concerns.

Just one question

[Locke2005]

WTF is a "Kijiji"?!? It looks like a name attempt at a logo by someone with an obsession with dotted letters.

"Ow, man! You kicked me right in the kijiji!"

Re:Just one question

[Zordak]

"Kijiji (pronounced key-jee-jee) is Swahili for village." -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kijiji

And it's English for "Lame Craigslist Knock-Off With a Stupid Name"

Re:Seems like a small pond, but eBay is right

[Locke2005]

If I was one of the owners of the other 75% of craigslist, I wouldn't be to happy with someone who has a vested interest in craigslist failing getting "a say in how the company is run". Nevertheless, as long as it is a minority stake, anything the eBay proxy advocates should be automatically voted against by the rest of the board anyway. The real issue here is whether you should be able to buy yourself a seat on your direct competitor's board in order to be privy to their trade secrets.

Re:Governor?

[Knara]

Carly? Her business/government acumen were so bad that she not only ruined HP, but got booted from McCain's staff as an adviser.

Too shy shy. hush hush.eye to eye

[maggotbrain_777]

KijijiJooJoo back together again like it was 1983.

Re: It's easier to find prostitutes on Craigslist.

[Bob_Who]

....and yet its easier to get screwed on eBay!!