Secret Copyright Treaty Timeline Shows Global DMCA

An anonymous reader writes "Michael Geist, a leading critic of the ACTA secret copyright treaty, has produced a new interactive timeline that traces its development. The timeline includes links to leaked documents, videos, and public interest group letters that should generate increasing concern with a deal that could lead to a global three-strikes and you're out policy."

Comments

Emailgate

[plopez]

If any organization needed an emailgate, this is one of them. We need to see who is manipulating and bribing who. Just like the open docs. fiasco.

Re:Emailgate

[Anonymous Coward]

I won't name the manipulators and bribers, but I'll give you a hint: their initials are RIAA and MPAA.

Re:Emailgate

[Spazztastic]

I won't name the manipulators and bribers, but I'll give you a hint: their initials are RIAA and MPAA.

I demand to know why myself, Richard Ingus Alfonzo-Almada and my wife Maria Perez Alfonzo-Almada, are being targeted by this smear campaign! We have done nothing!

Re:Emailgate

[MBGMorden]

Just a note: I don't have six fingers and I didn't kill your father. Please don't hurt me.

Re:Emailgate

[angelwolf71885]

12 trillion on red it gets tucked into the climate bill that will pass in the US very shortly after Copenhagen is over

Re:Emailgate

[Pete Venkman]

If someone did leak more documents, do you think the news would cover it?

Re:Emailgate

[Sylver Dragon]

I'd take that bet, I'm figuring that it'll get attached to the defense spending bill which is still waiting to be passed for this year (or next year's, if it takes that long). The Republicans are going to fight anything which comes out of Copenhagen which isn't an obvious hand-out to the oil companies. On the other hand, they won't fight a defense spending bill even if it had a "we're going to kill babies and stick them on spikes" rider in it.

Re:Emailgate

[angelwolf71885]

double down on it all gets tucked into a defense bill that in realty is a neutering bill coming and going in one bill

Re:Emailgate

[lgw]

The health care fiasco is in a defense appropriations bill. The "we're going to kill babies and stick them on spikes" rider (aka, federal abortion funding) was a subject of some debate among Dems, although I honestly can't follow the health care proposal at the rate it is changing (wait, it's "Medicare at 50" now?), so I don't know where the whole spiked baby thing ended up. At any rate, the Republicans will fight, at least against things being added to the bill.

As more and more "adjusted, homogenized" climate data turns out to be fraudulent, it seems a bit premature to destroy our economy to prevent something possibly fictional. Even with the falsified data, it's unclear that the economic impact of coping with climate change exceeds the economic impact of preventing it. But then, if your goal is to seize any opportunity to take control over how other people live their lives, and force them to live the way you think is best, then better hurry with that Copenhagen thing before the excuse finishes unraveling.

Have you seen the latest on the Antarctic data adjustments? The data from 63 temp sensors was "homoginized" by simply discarding the data from 62 of them and replacing those 62 with the data from the sensor with the fastest warming, producing a rate of change 8 times what might be reasonable. Persumably the hot sensor is near Mt Erebus (Antarctica's active volcano). You can "prove" anything you want if you lie about the data.

Re:Emailgate

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparantly, "Flamebait" is the new "I disagree" mod. I see no personal insults in the above post, on anything like that. "Troll" would be appropriate if you thought the poster was posting this dishonestly just to start an argument.

Face it, Slashdot does not have an "I disagree" mod. If you disagree, post a reply.

Re:Emailgate

[wall0159]

Yes, I agree. If only there was a wealthy and powerful opposition to the global DMCA to fund such a thing (like probably occurred with the global warming docs).

Re:Emailgate

[Anonymous Coward]

source ?

Re:Emailgate

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you're age is > 50.

Putting you as a member of a generation which sacrificed the future for their own personal comfort and profit.

Thanks.

Re:Emailgate

[lgw]

Here's one analysis of the Antarctica temperature record stuff. Several people around the web are trying to make sense of the data.

There's been an amazing surge in amature interest in science over the past month, as people plunge into the raw data and do their own analyses to see if the numbers are cooked as badly as they seem to be from the climategate emails. Whatever else comes of that, the renewed interest in science is wonderful, especially from the right. Climategate may eventually kill intelligent design!

Also, it makes me laugh to see YouTube videos about temperature analysis, and see that they're clearly is better science than the fraudulently peer reveiwed stuff, becuase the amatures reveal their data and methodology for review where the climte "scientists" hid everything. Well, now we now why they were secretive, but how can you call something "science" if you refuse to publish your sources and methods so that a skeptic can validate or falsify your experiments?

Re:Emailgate

[Sylver Dragon]

The health care fiasco is in a defense appropriations bill.

I thought the health care fiasco was in the Health Care Fiasco bill which we've been hearing so much about in the news. Got any actual citations on health care stuff being pushed into the defense appropriations bill? Or is this just more Limbaugh/Beck bullshit?

Have you seen the latest on the Antarctic data adjustments? The data from 63 temp sensors was "homoginized" by simply discarding the data from 62 of them and replacing those 62 with the data from the sensor with the fastest warming, producing a rate of change 8 times what might be reasonable. Persumably the hot sensor is near Mt Erebus (Antarctica's active volcano). You can "prove" anything you want if you lie about the data.

Actually no, I haven't seen this, link please? I tried googling for it and apparently either my skills are lacking or an actual source for this is.

Re:Emailgate

[Thinboy00]

[from his sig]

This comment is worded exactly as intended. Any lame "Fixed that for you" jokes won't be modded into oblivion.

FTFY. You can't mod and post simultaneously.

Re:Emailgate

[lgw]

Ahh, I think you're right - like I said, I find it hard to follow that ever-changing bill (just in the time since I posted it's apparantly not "medicare at 50" any longer - does anyone voting on this know what's in it?).

Here's one analysis of the Antarctic temperature record stuff. Several people around the web are trying to make sense of the data. It looks like the one climate station they liked wasn't near Mount Erebus, but on the peninsula (there are a couple of volcanoes out there, but I don't think they're active).

There's been an amazing surge in amature interest in science over the past month, as people plunge into the raw data and do their own analyses to see if the numbers are cooked as badly as they seem to be from the climategate emails. Whatever else comes of that, the renewed interest in science is wonderful, especially from the right. Climategate may eventually kill intelligent design!

BTW, if you haven't seen this data, you should. Ignore the blog poster's blathering and skip to the charts. You can validate all the data if you doubt it, but I've been following the Vostok ice core data for years now. There's a reason few geologists buy into the global warming panic (of course, a geologist may be thinking "meh, in 100 million years it will all blow over, blink of an eye really").

Re:Emailgate

[sowth]

although I honestly can't follow the health care proposal at the rate it is changing (wait, it's "Medicare at 50" now?)

I'm Offtopic, but it is interesting how they are lowering the age to qualify for medicare, but I haven't heard anything about lowering the wait time for getting medicare after being declared disabled. It was two years last time I saw. Since medical insurance is tied to employment these days, you have to wonder what the poor saps who become disabled and potentially have to go two years without any medical insurance. Maybe the people in congress don't care.

Then again, from what I've heard, most cases the person has actually been disabled for years before the government will admit he or she is disabled. Excepting of course the cases where it is absolutely undeniable.

Pretty much guarantees you will be bankrupt forever if you get a medical condition which causes you to be disabled. Assuming you live through the "trial period."

Doubleplusnotgood!

[filesiteguy]

I get a very bad feeling about international DCMA. It is bad enough the US citizens bent over and allowed the DCMA to be delivered, but now?

Next thing, I'll be sitting in jail for trying to solve a Rubik's Cube by taking it apart.

Re:Doubleplusnotgood!

[Penguinisto]

Well, any other route to global domination would be a bit too obvious, dontcha think? I mean, why make blatantly obvious laws that everyone notices immediately? Instead, you can make opaque, confusing, and outright obscure laws to sneak in and swipe individual liberty, one piece at a time, just like seawater eroding a sand castle on the beach. After all, it's far easier to point at a pile of obfuscation and say "don't worry - only those nasty artist-raping copyright pirates will have to worry about it - you're fine". Next, you can impose laws in the name of, oh, "the environment", then "safety", then "health", of course "the children", and then... well, you get the idea. Give it a pretty name, gloss over the ugly parts, and market it, one small piece at a time. As long as the proletariat is comfortable, they won't mind the ride until it's too late to actually do anything about it.

Besides, fascism-by-bureaucracy is far less messy to accomplish than staging an armed coup. Certainly a bit slower to do, but far more certain (as a bonus, you can condition the masses to actually be comfortable in the new environment. All you have to do is keep them distracted with neat little toys, lots of sexual entertainment, and the occasional celebrity gossip, just like they did it in the old days of Rome...)

Re:Doubleplusnotgood!

[Anonymous Coward]

That's silly! Just peel the stickers off the outside and move them to the correct side.

Worse than terrorism.

[Anonymous Coward]

These global organizations, as well as global governance, are a far bigger threat to freedom and democracy than terrorism ever could be.

We need politicians who are running on a platform that will directly challenge this sort of behavior. We need politicians who will withdraw our nations from these organizations and treaties.

NAFTA and treaties with various third-world countries have destroyed the American manufacturing base. The American economy will not recover until those treaties are abandoned and manufacturing comes back to America. We need politicians who will make this so.

Re:Worse than terrorism.

[Anonymous Coward]

Protectionism is freedom?

Re:Worse than terrorism.

[oldspewey]

The American economy will not recover until those treaties are abandoned and manufacturing comes back to America.

There are at least two ways of interpreting this sentence: the way you meant it, and the cynical one.

Re:Worse than terrorism.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why yes, yes it is. If you think the soverignty of a nation has any purpose, and that the main job of a government is look out for the concerns and welfare of it's own citizens.

But if you're the type that wants to help the rest of the world while the very community you live in goes down the shitter, you're free to do that too.

Re:Worse than terrorism.

[Anonymous Coward]

These global organizations, as well as global governance, are a far bigger threat to freedom and democracy than terrorism ever could be.

You sure got that right. WTO, IMF and the world bank == the NWO, nothing democratic or free about them.

Re:Worse than terrorism.

[nido]

Good points, all. I just have a short comment.

NAFTA and treaties with various third-world countries have destroyed the American manufacturing base.

You're surely talking about the massive loss in manufacturing jobs in the U.S. over the past 30+ years. While many of these job losses are due to so-called "free trade" treaties, automation via computers has also taken many jobs. Cool stuff is still made in the U.S., just not a whole lot of consumer-grade stuff.

For example, I met a man about 6 months ago who has a machine shop that makes tubes for telescopes and other similar projects. IIRC, he employed himself and his wife. 25 years ago, he would have needed a machinist for each machine in his shop...

The American economy will not recover until those treaties are abandoned and manufacturing comes back to America.

I think the problem is debt. The American economy will not recover until the debt problem is resolved. Once that's accomplished (possibly via state-owned banks), the economy will quickly take care of itself.

Re:Worse than terrorism.

[dwiget001]

Pfft, yeah.

We also need, at least in the U.S. and probably elsewhere, representatives and senators that are financially responsible individuals as a whole.

I blew a gasket and wrote my senators and representative about the OMFG unbelievable passing of the senate bill that boosts government spending by 12 percent AND gives government employees a two percent raise. Why? Well, given the financial condition of the country and the already outrageous borrowing that has already been done, they are setting things up so that we have to borrow *even more*.

So, not only have past and current Administrations, Houses and Senates made things *worse*, but they are doing things to make the future even worse!

The U.S. is going to hell in a hand basket, and our politicians are happily helping it along at a faster and faster pace. It un-f*cking-believable, to say the least.

I would propose the public hold secret talks.

[Bottles]

Secret talks to discuss, develop policy for and enact positive action to counter the erosion of our rights as we step into a new global digital age. Only, that's terrorism these days isn't it? Ok. Non-secret talks. Who's in? I'll buy beer.

Re:I would propose the public hold secret talks.

[Malevolyn]

You had me at "beer."

Re:I would propose the public hold secret talks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Has long as you keep the supply of beer coming I will keep drinking errr......figthing

Re:I would propose the public hold secret talks.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm struggling to decide whether that should be modded as funny or insightful.

Bring it on

[frenchbedroom]

The harder they push in this direction, the more people will realize there is another way

Re:Bring it on

[Penguinisto]

Question is, will they care? Most folks consume content, not create it. Also, as we've seen in the whole Microsoft vs. FOSS wars, the closed-source guys seem to have better, slicker marketing.

Re:Bring it on

[oldspewey]

Where's the link on that site to download movies and music? Because as tempting as it is to believe people want to build a brighter, DMCA-free future and live in a shiny happy world, for most people the overriding concern is "how can I get hold of the latest music/movie/game?"

cc.org, cool and noble though it may be, doesn't address that need and therefore will not resonate with 95% of the people out there. Find a way to make cc.org (or something similar) legitimately compete with the **IA, and you'll be on to something.

Re:Bring it on

[Archangel Michael]

There is yet another way. It is called massive civil disobedience.

They can't cut us all off. And I dare them to try.

Re:Bring it on

[Hurricane78]

Of course they will care. Because what is the point of ACTA? More money.
From people who do not have more money.

So it creates financial pressure. And as humans always seek the easiest (most efficient!) way, they will naturally be pressed towards CC and more secretive file sharing (which will become way easier to set up).

ACTA is the classic “tighten your grip, until you are left with nothing”.

There is no way to win this, for the content industry. They can only lose.
They get to choose the way it ends. Nothing more.
If they want to choose the faster dead (ACTA), let them. :)

Re:Bring it on

[macbeth66]

the closed-source guys seem to have better, slicker marketing.

Perhaps.

But when Grandma asks me about this 'new' Linux thing and will it get rid of all these virus things, I know there is hope.

Re:Bring it on

[schon]

Sorry, no.

As admirable as you believe the goal is (and I agree with you on that), the means is just *wrong*.

You're talking about organizations that think nothing of sending infringement notices for things that are in the public domian, or copyrighted by the people who post them. "Artist's" groups that send DMCA notices against the wishes of the authors they represent for material that is published by the authors themselves under a CC license.

These are people who send infringement notices based on nothing more than the author's name being similar to one they represent.

They are people who send infringement notices to the wrong place, or "link" infringement to IP addresses that are assigned to printers.

You get three of these? You're off the net. Period. Doesn't matter if the stuff is CC'ed or not. Doesn't matter that the notices are invalid. You're guilty until proven innocent. You have to prove you're innocent, and do it without access to the tools necessary to do so.

THIS IS WRONG

"Bring it on" is entirely the wrong way to approach this - we need to stop it before it happens, not try to fix it after.

Re:Bring it on

[aynoknman]

There is no way to win this, for the content industry. They can only lose. They get to choose the way it ends. Nothing more. If they want to choose the faster dead (ACTA), let them. :)

The problem with letting them is the collateral damage. I'm reminded of the cartoon of the criminal holding a child's head next to his with a huge pistol pointing at the two of them. "Stand back or the kid gets it!"

Re:Bring it on

[FoolishOwl]

An irony in the struggle between FOSS and proprietary software is that for many people, pirating commercial software is a practical necessity, in part because of the efforts of monopolists to enforce their dominance of the market. How often do you see "Familiarity with OpenOffice.org" in a job description? How many student graphic designers, working their way through school with minimum wage jobs, can use GIMP instead of Photoshop for their class work?

Entertainment media is more complicated, ethically. But given the consolidation of mass media, it's increasingly difficult to find any variety in broadcast music -- a few years ago, there was a much wider range of choices, available legally and freely.

In effect, DRM is a Sword of Damocles hanging over the heads of nearly everyone.

Re:Bring it on

[penix1]

Most folks consume content, not create it.

I am going to throw semantics at you and ask:

Just how does someone "consume content"?

This is the problem with the whole copyright argument. Trying to assign a value to the expression of an idea is wrong.

Re:Bring it on

[ItsJustAPseudonym]

Question: In the U.S., isn't the Executive Branch the only branch of government that is currently involved in the ACTA negotiations?

That would mean that U.S. citizens can't even write to their (our) representatives about it.

Re:Bring it on

[Anonymous Coward]

Sadly, the path that has been suggested here, leads to creative commons becoming outlawed, if not illegal.

This will ultimately split the creative crowd to a degree never imagined. You'll have industry, and independent, except independent will be locked out to the grass roots and fringe of society, because everything else will be owned by Corporations. You want to advertise using 'this format'? Sorry, we only support this, and that, both of which require this license, and that software, which can be bought over there.

Competition is the only thing that keeps free markets at bay. OSS, and open formats which I fully support in every way shape and form, can not keep the monster that is Capitalism at bay. The higher education in this country has indoctrinated far too many for that ideology to go away in the next half century.

It's both sad and tragic that the DMCA came from the most free* nation on the planet, yet stinks of a Totalitarian nature.

Re:Bring it on

[sabt-pestnu]

See: Iran.

Re:Bring it on

[Anonymous Coward]

Never happen. People will never rebel, not in today's day and age. People will just keep rolling over and taking it, no matter what.

I used to think that eventually, things would get bad enough that there'd be enough angry people to create a change. I've come to see that as only wishful thinking. The future is such that people are worthless, expendable resources to be mined by big corporations.

Re:Bring it on

[IBBoard]

That only works with physical things. Disconnecting an Internet account is trivial compared to imprisoning someone (which is what you'd need for physical civil disobedience). The level of technical competence of the user will vary the amount of time before they try (potentially unsuccessfully if there is a common blacklist) to get back online, but the mass disconnecting shouldn't be all that difficult.

Re:Bring it on

[sowth]

One necessary thing is stiff penalties for anyone who submits false copyright infringement claims. There are stiff penalties for infringing copyrights, which some claim is "stealing" (they are two different things). However a crime which is much more close to stealing is almost always unpunished. Fraudulently taking down a work infringes on the freedom of the person who made the work.

It is not any different than someone who claims you stole the car you are driving, and elicits the help of police or others to "take it back." Really, that is stealing. I don't think copyright infringement is a great idea, but at least copying other's works does not prohibit them from using it or them from allowing others to use it.

It is similar when a company abuses copyright law to lock down their product so you are only able to use it as they approve. You bought it, it is yours. Maybe you shouldn't be allowed to copy the ROM and such, but they shouldn't be allowed to deliberately lock you out from modding it. Saying it prevents "evil pirates" from copying games or some crap is bullshit. Under the right conditions, my ass can copy newsprint. Should I be required to sugically remove my ass now?

Yes, help creative commons, open source etc.

[matt007]

If this is going live, i can foresee open source apps and creative commons goods surge in popularity.

Aren't they shooting themselves in the long term ?

Re:Yes, help creative commons, open source etc.

[Anonymous Coward]

Human beings are very good at making positive short term actions that lead to long term detriments.

Re:Yes, help creative commons, open source etc.

[sajuuk]

Nope, the next international treaty will outlaw open source and creative commons. At which point I shall secede from the human race.

Re:Yes, help creative commons, open source etc.

[Monkeedude1212]

I can also foresee alot of Open source apps unable to foster because of global copyright laws.

Re:Yes, help creative commons, open source etc.

[filesiteguy]

Currently, OSS distributions cannot send out - for example - CSS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content_Scramble_System) code in many countries due to things like the DCMA. However, it can easily be downloaded from other countries, where the DCMA is not in effect. This allows one to play DVD's using MPlayer or VLC without worrying about the local authorities knocking on one's door.

Given this bastard law, one wouldn't be able to download code regardless.

Re:Yes, help creative commons, open source etc.

[Anonymous Coward]

You've got to clarify this. The license under which they are produced allows collaboration and distribution in spite of craziness in other copyright laws.

Re:Yes, help creative commons, open source etc.

[schon]

The license under which they are produced allows collaboration and distribution in spite of craziness in other copyright laws.

It doesn't matter - all it takes is someone who is willing to say "hey, that code infringes our copyright". The "offending" code gets removed, and (after the third time) the person who posted it gets kicked off the net.

Good luck trying to clear your name when you don't get to use the internet, and you can't sue to get reconnected because the company that made the claim is in another country.

And if you *do* manage to get it cleared up, the company just says "whoops, I guess I was wrong", and it starts all over again.

Re:Yes, help creative commons, open source etc.

[ppanon]

Aren't they shooting themselves in the long term ?

Pretty well. Up here, SOCAN are trying to renegotiate higher performance fees to get a cut of expected higher revenues for Vancouver transit buskers during the Olympics. It may result in getting the busker program (and SOCAN's revenues from it) cancelled instead. Does it make sense to charge buskers making $50 a weekend a rate much closer to DJs making hundreds of dollars a night?

Re:Yes, help creative commons, open source etc.

[gink1]

You must understand that the authors of these laws are not looking beyond their wallets in considering the law's effects.

If ACTA destroys the internet as we know it but meets their ignorant, short term needs to prop up a failing business model then it's a victory for these fat cats & media moguls.

Pro-ACTA arguments are disingenuous

[TechForensics]

If one follows the link in TFA to Michael Geist's interactive timeline, there's an element that leads to a short video of a debate in the Canadian Houses of Parliament-- one member says ACTA is a tool of US corporate interests and will lock millions of users out of the net; the government minister who responds says anything in ACTA is "subservient to the acts of this Parliament". What he DOESN'T say, and what the member is not sharp enough to pick up in the swift give-and-take of debate, is that *once the treaty is in place*, there is NO more subservience to *anything* (short of something on the order of a US Constitutional Amendment". This is the point: the people and even those of their representatives who want to derail this blindsiding juggernaut *will be able to do nothing* once the treaty is signed, and *saying the treaty is subject to US or Canadian law* is a pure, cynical smokescreen. An ounce of prevention here can accomplish what no amount of cure can fix. ACTA negotiations must be transparent. If we don't fight for that the corporate interests will do an end run around our rights.

Re:Pro-ACTA arguments are disingenuous

[Anonymous Coward]

That is not totally true. For example a few years ago the US backed out of a treaty. Russia was not too happy about it. That treaty no longer is 'above the law'.

Re:Pro-ACTA arguments are disingenuous

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, Canada is still dragging their heals ratifying many portions of the WIPO treaties, the government ignored the Kyoto protocol, free trade agreements signed with countries in South America may or may not still need to be implemented by an act of parliament, but essentially the Member of Parliament is correct when he says that treaty agreements are subservient to the acts of parliament. As such it is entirely possibly for future parliaments to pull out of treaty agreements by implementing their own acts. However, of course, there are the potential backlashes internationally of violating the agreements that have to be weighed... at the same time, the Conservative party is very likely going to attempt to implement legislation to conform to ACTA. If Canada is lucky, then there will be an election before then causing any proposed amendment to the copyright act to be dropped until it can be reintroduced in a new session. Which has thankfully happened I think at least twice that I can remember?

Re:Pro-ACTA arguments are disingenuous

[TechForensics]

And what amount of public pressure will ever move the government to repudiate a treaty that serves the interests of the principal government campaign contributors?

Re:Pro-ACTA arguments are disingenuous

[gedw99]

Yes, fully agree here. Once the treaty is in place, the nations will be not allowed to trade unless they support and hence legislate the principles of the treaty into their laws. This is exactly how its worked in the past. Countries sign up, and then realize that the US and others cant or wont trade with them unless they too legislate the treaty. No country can afford to be out of the world trade economy and so is forced to act on the treaty and put it in effect as legislation. Its very sneaky and effective and have been used for decades. The world bank also uses this to their advantage as a rule. "You must implement this treaty in order to qualify for this loan". The pattern of how they get this ratified and legislated is all around us. History teaches us. I want countries and people to learn from these patterns that history has shown us again and again.

Re:Pro-ACTA arguments are disingenuous

[Vanderhoth]

So what do you propose to do about it? Are you going to lead the revolution that brings down the corrupt government and forces them to be accountable to the people that voted them in and not to the corporations that line their pockets?

The problem with politicians is they have the police and military on their side. The problem with people is we have the freedom to speak out, but won't. I'd join a group so my voice could be heard anonymously, but I'm not going to jail because the government knows I disagreed with them.

Get Mad, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNxoLJy3m3s

Re:Pro-ACTA arguments are disingenuous

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe somebody should harness public pressure to create an alternative political party which harnesses xenophobia and a protectionist ideology in order to garner popular support for treaty withdrawal as one of it's policy points. Perhaps that party could refuse funding from the campaign contributors which would seek to oppose that view - at the same time, it could publicize it's refusal and demonize those contributors.

Re:Pro-ACTA arguments are disingenuous

[Anonymous Coward]

So what do you propose to do about it? Are you going to lead the revolution that brings down the corrupt government and forces them to be accountable to the people that voted them in and not to the corporations that line their pockets?

Join al-qaeda. Seriously it's the lesser of two evils.

Re:Pro-ACTA arguments are disingenuous

[Vanderhoth]

I'm sure you're being sarcastic, but this is one of the best ideas I've heard yet.

Re:Pro-ACTA arguments are disingenuous

[Abcd1234]

If one follows the link in TFA to Michael Geist's interactive timeline, there's an element that leads to a short video of a debate in the Canadian Houses of Parliament-- one member says ACTA is a tool of US corporate interests and will lock millions of users out of the net; the government minister who responds says anything in ACTA is "subservient to the acts of this Parliament". What he DOESN'T say, and what the member is not sharp enough to pick up in the swift give-and-take of debate, is that *once the treaty is in place*, there is NO more subservience to *anything*

Clearly you have no understanding of the role of treaties in Canadian law.

Unlike our American neighbours to the south, treaties have *no legal force on their own*. That's right, they do *not* become the law of the land. Rather, once a treaty is ratified, it's up to the government to then pass laws which harmonize Canadian law with the treaty provisions. But that's *not legally required*. ie, there's nothing stopping the house from simply refusing to pass laws to harmonize Canadian law with our treaty obligations.

Re:Pro-ACTA arguments are disingenuous

[orgelspieler]

So you're saying we should hijack the teabaggers?

Re:Pro-ACTA arguments are disingenuous

[Anonymous Coward]

That is not totally true. For example a few years ago the US backed out of a treaty. Russia was not too happy about it. That treaty no longer is 'above the law'.

If we're thinking of the same treaty, it was actually signed with the USSR, which no longer exists.

Disingenuous? Perhaps, but not quite as simple as you make it out to be.

Re:Pro-ACTA arguments are disingenuous

[Abcd1234]

And what amount of public pressure will ever move the government to repudiate a treaty that serves the interests of the principal government campaign contributors?

Well, given that campaign contributions are severely curtailed in Canada, I'd say this particular issue you've cited isn't terribly relevant (thank you Elections Canada). In fact, the track record of our government thus far indicates that the government isn't terribly influenced by the copyright cartel (a DMCA-like law has been proposed multiple times, only to be shot down time after time, and while we do have tariffs on various storage media, we also get legalized personal copying as a tradeoff).

That's not to say that corporations don't have a very strong voice at the table, particularly in provinces like BC where the movie industry is an important sector of the economy. But they don't have nearly the strangehold on government that they do in the US.

DMCA induced Economic collapse

[Anonymous Coward]

As far as I'm concerned the more they tighted and restrict what I can do with something I bought, the less I'm inclined to even buy anything (and no, not pirating).

If enough people feel this way, watch the sales tank . . . .

Re:DMCA induced Economic collapse

[oldspewey]

... which the corporate lobby will then blame on piracy.

Re:DMCA induced Economic collapse

[Anonymous Coward]

Turnabout is fair play, considering there is no evidence to support either OP's position or the corporate lobby's.

and this changes what?

[girlintraining]

Intellectual property is an invention of the rich countries to force the poor countries into an economic model that benefits them. Knowledge has always been power, and the developed countries of the world realize that by locking up their books and restricting the free trade of information and knowledge, they can effectively keep those countries enslaved -- producing real, material goods, in exchange for imaginary ones.

That, people, is the true objective of intellectual property. You people think they care about you making pirate copies of CDs and DVDs? How pathetically self-centered! The truth is much bigger than your hard drive contents.

Re:and this changes what?

[gedw99]

Patents and intellectual property are one things.

But this treaty and others go further than that.

Dont be so simplistic.

they already enforce that all countries that trade with the US, must respect international treaties. Copyright and intellectual property was one of the first many many years ago.

the stuff they are pushing through now is much more focused on addressing open information leakage. They want to gain some level of control over information spread.

Its not just the US. Its the EU. The EU tends to be more socialist in their agenda, and able to also interpret these treaties for what they are.

But again, the pressure to sign up to these treaties is on the EU parliament too, because they need to trade with the US.

Now that the EU has a more solid power base, and the US economy has started to falter it does allow the EU much more wriggle room and negotiation room.

The danger of course is of the EU simply embraces whole heartedly what the US is trying to achieve with these treaties. In essence the EU then becomes just as draconian as the US.

Re:and this changes what?

[Anonymous Coward]

>Intellectual property is an invention of the rich countries

Or, you know, people just wanted to make money off their creations.

Re:and this changes what?

[Anonymous Coward]

In the US Constitution, as originally written, the purpose of Copyright and Patents was to ENSURE that the items, or knowledge, in question was released to the public, for public use and improvement, in a short period of time. The purpose was NOT to ensure a perpetual ownership by the inventor or rights-holder, but to get it out of his or her hands and into the public's. Somehow our courts (and many parts of the world have followed) have twisted it 180 degrees around.

I say we bring back the original intent, as well as the original 14 year maximum period.

Re:and this changes what?

[VGPowerlord]

No, 14 years was set way back when people were expected to only live until 40.

Since both patents and copyrights in the US were originally 14 years, and patents are now 20, 20 years must be the correct amount for copyrights, too!

Re:and this changes what?

[bmajik]

Government is created to try and preserve the rights men were born with.

I happen to think that I own the toil of my hands and the ingenuity of my mind. What does it mean to own something? Exclusive control of that thing.

On a desert island, I certainly own the work of my hands and mind. Why should I give up that control just because someone thinks themself my neighbor?

I shouldn't, and in the United States, at least originally, you weren't asked to.

It turns out that a large part of the law deals with preserving the intrinsic property rights of individuals -- as the idea of ownership is the most fundamental concept of a free man [certainly, a man must be allowed to own himself! another idea that is unique amongst world governments to the US constitution...]

Now, unlike the misguided collectivists who beleive that "the workers" produce and therefore should "own" the wealth of the world, hands are of marginal importance compared to minds. My hands are no stronger or more durable than were the first entites that could be rightly called human hands thousands of years ago. The difference between me and them is the foundation of _mental_ output.

Ideas are what matter. Ideas are what have value. Ideas -- and nothing more than ideas -- are the difference between a humanity full of sky scrapers, planes, a lifespan longer than 40 years, and the cavemen who didn't know how to make fire.

Intellectual Property is the basic realization that ideas are the most valuable things in human history, and that a man ought to be free to own his ideas -- just like he is when he's alone on an island.

Creating the appropriate legal protections of a mind's inventions requires much legal anquish and debate. But it is a debate and process that must continue. Attempting to dismiss IP as some fundmentally invalid or non-existant concept shows great contempt for humanity. Not "humanity, the pool of humans", but "humanity -- the essence of what a man is".

Who is John Galt?

Re:and this changes what?

[Areyoukiddingme]

You got the idea, while preaching means that are diametrically opposed to accomplishing it. Ideas are indeed the foundation of civilization, but it's the spread of ideas and their widespread application that induces civilization, not ideas locked up and caged and available only at arbitrary cost from their progenitor. Ownership is a fundamental aspect of individual freedom, but ownership of ideas damages societal freedom.

Copyrights and patents stifle progress and act as a brake against innovation that leads to further "upgrades" of civilization. When use of an idea that can improve my life requires a fee, I'm less likely to use it. Taken to its ultimate end, every idea that can improve my life requires a fee. How then do I live?

Re:and this changes what?

[babblefrog]

What? An idea is yours so long as you keep it to yourself. Once you tell me your idea, you want to be able to control what I can do with it? By force, of course. How can you own something which is now in my mind? This is one of the most perverted discussions of "the rights that men were born with" that I have ever read.

Re:and this changes what?

[Omestes]

Government is created to try and preserve the rights men were born with.

We're born with rights? I wasn't aware of any viable a priori or empirical proofs towards that conclusion. What the hell is a right, where the hell do they come from? Neither of these questions have been answered to any degree of certainty. Generally all they are is convenient slogans used to make an emotive argument towards their own agenda. Functionally they are nothing more than a social construct. All persuasive descriptions of rights are merely normative proscriptions (Kant's Categorical Imperative, the various social contracts, etc...), and not descriptive systems of actual innate rights.

Also who is to say who owns what? Do you own your land, the land that someone stole from the Native Americans?

s the idea of ownership is the most fundamental concept of a free man [certainly, a man must be allowed to own himself! another idea that is unique amongst world governments to the US constitution...]

Personally ownership/property would be secondary to the basics of survival, since the latter necessarily precludes the former. Looking at the history of society, the so-called "innate right" to personal property is a relative newcomer, with early communities being rather communistic (i.e. community property), and much of the time after the widespread advent of "private property" much of the population didn't actually have this right, being that all land/property was the Crowns. For an innate right, it springs up REALLY late in the game.

Also, how can we say that the US Constitution "allowed a man to own himself", and was "unique" in this? We were one of the last countries to realize that a large segment of the population WASN'T property. In half of our history I could claim ownership over you, based solely on your level of melanin. Hell, we didn't even realize that women had rights until rather late in the game, and they were over half the population.

The US was a backwards country based off of economic exploitation and not any conception of "rights". In some regards we still fall into this mold.

Intellectual Property is the basic realization that ideas are the most valuable things in human history, and that a man ought to be free to own his ideas -- just like he is when he's alone on an island.

And your own holy Constitution craps on that idea. Governments exist for the good of society (a collective entity of individuals), and not for YOU, or any other person. Copyright, and IP in general, exists for the benefit of all members of society, and not just you. Thus the idea of a limited monopoly on your intellectual creation. The only reason you get this small monopoly is to sucker you into creating more stuff (using your greed for the benefit of the society as a whole), there is no high-falutin' "the effluvia that flows from your brain is sacrosanct" clause in the constitution. There is two reasons for this; the first being that there is no proof that the founding fathers were rugged individualists (in the sense we mean today, they probably would have giggled madly at Ayn Rand, and the modern libertarian party), and that it is incredibly naive to think that any individuals ideas came from a vacuum, you owe your great idea to great ideas before that. If all individual ideas were walled off, there would be no progress since without the old ideas, there are no new ideas.

Not "humanity, the pool of humans", but "humanity -- the essence of what a man is".

Featherless bipeds? There is no "essence", people are free to create their own essence. My idea of what I would probably piss you off, and visa versa. Human nature, is by nature, almost infinitely malleable. Personally I do think that IP is largely meaningless, outside of a way to blackmail creators into creating more. I can't smell, see, or measure IP, therefore it is no more real than any other mere idea. Ideas should always be subjugated by that which exists

Re:and this changes what?

[schon]

I happen to think that I own the toil of my hands and the ingenuity of my mind.

You can think whatever you like, it doesn't make it correct.

Say you walk by a construction site after everyone's gone home, and decide you're gonna use the materials there to build a house. Do you own the house? After all, it was done with "the toil of your hands and the ingenuity of your mind".

But no - you will find that the owners of the materials and the land own the house, not you. And *they* will be the ones that have "exclusive control" over it.

Creativity does not occur in a vacuum. Writing music, drawing, sculpting, story writing - these are *all* built upon the work of others. When you go to school and study how to become a painter, you start by examining the works of other artists. We learn how to be great artists by studying the works of others, and incorporating their methods into our own. If you disagree, I challenge you to create something that does not incorporate any prior work or idea from anyone else - if you are delusional, you might even think you will succeed.. but it wouldn't take anyone familiar with the medium to find similar elements "stolen" from others.

Since these works have no tangible goods they do not belong to anyone, but in order to encourage creation the government has graciously granted the authors the right to exclude others from copying them for a period of time. Make no mistake - you cannot own culture or ideas. You can be granted the exclusive right to profit from it, but you cannot own it.

Re:and this changes what?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, 14 years was set way back when the speed of technological and cultural progress was 10% of what it is now. 5 years is more reasonable.

Re:and this changes what?

[Jedi Alec]

On a desert island, I certainly own the work of my hands and mind. Why should I give up that control just because someone thinks themself my neighbor?

Because we are neighbours. The global village is getting smaller every day. And what you Randians seem to keep missing is that you don't, in fact, live on desert islands. (We wish...)

If we weren't neighbours, why bother with treaties in the first place? You keep your laws, we keep ours.

Now, unlike the misguided collectivists who beleive that "the workers" produce and therefore should "own" the wealth of the world, hands are of marginal importance compared to minds. My hands are no stronger or more durable than were the first entites that could be rightly called human hands thousands of years ago. The difference between me and them is the foundation of _mental_ output.

Way to misrepresent things...the most common argument is that perhaps the mere fact that someone is born well-connected, in the right place or with more intelligence than another man doesn't mean it's "fair" that the relative difference in income needs to be expressed in terms of 10 to the nth degree.

Ideas are what matter. Ideas are what have value. Ideas -- and nothing more than ideas -- are the difference between a humanity full of sky scrapers, planes, a lifespan longer than 40 years, and the cavemen who didn't know how to make fire.

Intellectual Property is the basic realization that ideas are the most valuable things in human history, and that a man ought to be free to own his ideas -- just like he is when he's alone on an island.

Excellent. Don't write them down on paper or tell the rest of us about them, just like on your desert island. Good luck working on that coconut detection device!

Re:and this changes what?

[Anonymous Coward]

And I believe we call that "a smack down". Bravo!

Not jail, the wilderness

[Wrexs0ul]

This isn't a jail policy, they can't imprison you on allegations yet.

Unfortunately they can kick you off the internet for a period of time by allegation alone. You know, that little novelty some of us run hobbies off of, or maybe send the occasional "electronic" letter to our hip friends in other cities through Prodigy.

Let's get real about this. Internet for many people is an integrated part of daily life, you wouldn't cut power or phones from people who allegedly do bad things with it without proving guilt first (or in the rare case preventing immediate harm to someone else). This isn't any different; sure I can survive just fine without internet or power (for a while), but the consequences to my life and livelihood would be apparent pretty quickly.

Worse yet, the authority for removing essential services has an established track record for casting really big nets. The American cousin of the CRIA uses big lawsuits to make up for inadequacies like a city-bound guy with a Hummer... We already have enough issues in this country with a self-governed federal police force, thank-you. Let's sort those bumps out before putting law in the hands of the private sector.

-Matt

Re:Not jail, the wilderness

[tuxgeek]

You'd be surprised just how simple your life would become without internet or power ...

For one, you would probably read more books
And you would certainly expose yourself to a lot less red slime from Fox news corp

Re:Not jail, the wilderness

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately they can kick you off the internet for a period of time by allegation alone. You know, that little novelty some of us run hobbies off of, or maybe send the occasional "electronic" letter to our hip friends in other cities through Prodigy.

That also means anyone could remove any other IP address simply by accusing them of copyright infringement.

By simply sending 3 letters I could remove the computer running RIAA.COM or WHITEHOUSE.GOV
Sure they can move it to another IP address but the time and effort to do so makes printing a few cut & pasted letters seem
worth it. What would happen if a group of individuals got together and started a letter writing campaign claiming copyright
infringement by a whole block of addresses. I cant wait to see how these laws will be abused.

If they add something allowing the person disconnected to sue the accuser (effectively requiring you to pay to prove your innocence)
then set up a limited company and fold it right before any lawsuits start.

Re:Not jail, the wilderness

[Anonymous Coward]

And you'd have a hell of a time finding employment if you want to do more than local burger flipping and dish washing.

Re:Not jail, the wilderness

[Mitchell314]

But now many of us are held up to the expectations of having internet connection. Sure, we managed to survive without phones, but living in the modern life partially means that you are accessible by phone (for most of us, anyways). Internet, email, etc has now gone that route too.

Re:Not jail, the wilderness

[Anonymous Coward]

A proper US-DMCA letter makes claims "under penalty of perjury..."

Perjure myself for a prank? I don't think so.

Re:Not jail, the wilderness

[HungryHobo]

Simply put

1: Your letters will be ignored if they're accusing someone important.
If you accuse a senator there's no way in hell they're getting disconnected.

2: If the RIAA accuse everyone in a network block of copyright infringement with no proof then so what?
In theory there are penalties for sending fraudulent DMCA notices but you have to have deep pockets to make it stick and there's probably some crap whereby they only have to prove that they *believed* you were violating copyright because the magic 8 ball said so and hence were acting in good faith.

3: the penalties if you do make it stick are probably a drop in the bucket for the RIAA/MPAA etc

4: If you try to turn it against them and serve notices to them then they will have deep pockets to make it stick to you and will make an example out of you.

5: the penalties which would be a drop in the bucket for the RIAA/MPAA etc will make you bleed out your ears.

Re:Not jail, the wilderness

[Anonymous Coward]

The RIAA and MPAA minions have no problem with perjury, so I don't think this is being enforced very carefully. Still, its probably best to use tor to send the messages using some actual ones as a model. I don't think many places are checking the digital signatures currently, so that shouldn't be a problem.
The target should also be changed. You need people to get IP addresses and time stamps for people who will get listened to (politicians, judges, celebrities) and use them for the takedown notices in order to get them cut off.

Re:Not jail, the wilderness

[number11]

A proper US-DMCA letter makes claims "under penalty of perjury..."

The only part of the letter that the penalty of perjury applies to is a statement that the sender is an authorized representative of the copyright owner. Which is no problem if you're claiming that it's something you hold copyright to. (The copyright does not need to have been filed with the Copyright Office.)

And if you've ever sent them an email, when you wrote that email you automatically got copyright to it. I expect they could argue "fair use" if they made (or still have) a copy, but the DMCA makes no provision for fair use. Besides, it would be amusing to hear the MPAA/RIAA make arguments about why fair use is permitted.

Re:Not jail, the wilderness

[Theaetetus]

A proper US-DMCA letter makes claims "under penalty of perjury..."

The only part of the letter that the penalty of perjury applies to is a statement that the sender is an authorized representative of the copyright owner.

You also have to warrant "that the information is accurate" and, under penalty of perjury, that the copyright has been infringed. Additionally, perjury aside, making false statements could be considered an obstruction of justice that could get you a contempt of court charge.

Re:Not jail, the wilderness

[Anonymous Coward]

And you'd have a hell of a time finding employment if you want to do more than local burger flipping and dish washing.

What? Me and many others like me had careers before the internet existed. And those careers usually did not involve dishwashing and burger flipping.

Re:Not jail, the wilderness

[Anonymous Coward]

That hasn't stopped RIAA member attorneys or RIAA themselves from making false statements in DMCA takedown notices all this time...

But, since you're not one of them, they're very likely to enforce the rules ON YOUR instance...to make an example of you...so they can send a message to others that standing up for your rights by doing the same thing they let the corporations get away with will not be tolerated.

Re:Not jail, the wilderness

[number11]

You also have to warrant "that the information is accurate" and, under penalty of perjury, that the copyright has been infringed.

Perhaps you could give a cite? No DMCA takedown that I have ever seen, including those that I have personally received, does that. Here's actual text from an actual notice from my files, with names changed to protect the guilty:

Scumsucker and Weasel LLC ("Scumsucker") swears under penalty of perjury that Sleazebag Studios, Inc. ("Sleazebag") has authorized Scumsucker to act as its agent for copyright infringement notification. Scumsucker's search of the protocol listed below has detected infringements of Sleazebag's copyright interests on your IP addresses as detailed in the attached report.

Scumsucker has reasonable good faith belief that use for the material in the manner complained of in the attached report is not authorized by Sleazebag, its agents, or the law. The information provided herein is accurate to the best of our knowledge. Therefore, this letter is an official notification under provisions of section 512(a) of the U.S. Digital Millennium Copyright Act to effect removal of the detected infringement listed in the attached report. The attached documentation specifies the exact location of the infringement. The Notice ID identifies the copyrighted works by file identification number.

We hereby request that you immediately remove or block access to the infringing material, as specified in the copyright laws, and insure the user refrains from using or sharing with others Sleazebag's materials in the future.

Please send us a prompt response indicating the actions you have taken to resolve this matter. Please reference the Notice ID number above in your response.

Notice how the only thing that is sworn to is that Scumsucker is the agent of Sleazebag.

Additionally, perjury aside, making false statements could be considered an obstruction of justice that could get you a contempt of court charge.

IANAL, but I'm not sure that "obstruction of justice" can apply to a civil case. In addition, note the weasel phrases "reasonable good faith belief" and "to the best of our knowledge". They don't swear that it is a violation, or even that they've examined the file in question, merely that they think it is a violation.

Re:Not jail, the wilderness

[Theaetetus]

You also have to warrant "that the information is accurate" and, under penalty of perjury, that the copyright has been infringed.

Perhaps you could give a cite? No DMCA takedown that I have ever seen, including those that I have personally received, does that.

17 USC 512 provides that, to be effective, a takedown notice must contain "A statement that the information in the notification is accurate, and under penalty of perjury, that the complaining party is authorized to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed."

Thus, the statement must warrant that the information is accurate, and must further state, under penalty of perjury, that the complaining party is an authorized representative or is the owner and that they are alleging infringement.

"The information provided herein is accurate to the best of our knowledge..."

Notice how the only thing that is sworn to is that Scumsucker is the agent of Sleazebag... In addition, note the weasel phrases "reasonable good faith belief" and "to the best of our knowledge". They don't swear that it is a violation, or even that they've examined the file in question, merely that they think it is a violation.

Yes, they aren't swearing it, but while you may think that "reasonable good faith belief" and "to the best of our knowledge" are weasel phrases - and they are, in non-legal contexts - in legal contexts, these phrases have very specific meanings and objective tests.

Additionally, perjury aside, making false statements could be considered an obstruction of justice that could get you a contempt of court charge.

IANAL, but I'm not sure that "obstruction of justice" can apply to a civil case.

Totally. It's not a criminal contempt charge, but can include where the offending party has "acted in a manner which prejudices the administration of justice."

Re:Not jail, the wilderness

[WCguru42]

For one, you would probably read more books

One of these days I want someone to explain to me why reading more books is so important. Not everything that isn't reading books is bad (take that grammar nazis).

Re:Not jail, the wilderness

[Shagg]

This isn't a jail policy, they can't imprison you on allegations yet.

Not yet... give them time.

What they can do today though is essentially financially ruin you for life based off of a civil suit.

Re:Not jail, the wilderness

[countertrolling]

In a world where government represents commercial interests exclusively, the law has always been in the hands of the private sector.

Re:Not jail, the wilderness

[Archades54]

Globalization calls for internet access for high speed communication, many people make a living soley through their internet connection and require access to it simply to look for a job, email a resume/cv, etc.

With more and more technology people will be working from home even more when they can remote login to their workplace servers and be able to wittle out there work. It also allows for such things as mothers to work from home whilst being able to care for their child, the internet is soon becoming a modern day human NEED for employment. Not to mention many kids in remote areas RELY on the internet for education, hell even adults doing uni/college from afar rely on it.

Sure we don't need cars, planes, etc, but do you want to regress to a time of horse drawn cart? Man doesn't get to space by only riding horsies. Cut out his internet and you basically cut him off from modern life, or soon to be modern life.

Re:Not jail, the wilderness

[sowth]

I don't think you understand how it will work. A big ISP will have no problem cutting off some random guy's internet access. (without telling him why, and tech support doesn't know) I doubt they would even think about cutting off the access of a company which probably pays them tens of thousands or perhaps millions of dollars per month for hosting.

So, in reality, unless you are a big player who pays lots of money for hosting, publishing anything will risk losing your internet account. Isn't this how they took over the radio spectrum? Welcome the era of internet as tv! (Due to "webification" it is already close anyway...)

read your history books, corporate goons

[circletimessquare]

technology tames the law

the law never tames technology

not for want of trying of course

Re:read your history books, corporate goons

[boxxertrumps]

I can do this too,

Making haikus about stuff.

It is very fun.

Re:read your history books, corporate goons

[circletimessquare]

twas 5-7-5

mine was 7-9-8, yes?

troll has haiku win

Re:read your history books, corporate goons

[gedw99]

agree here.

check out the world bank and how it uses treaties as qualification and compliance requirements in order to get loans from them.

this is another way of forcing treaties onto countries.

Re:read your history books, corporate goons

[boxxertrumps]

It's monday morning...

I haven't had caffeine yet,

I'm tired, sorry.

Re:read your history books, corporate goons

[Yvan256]

Haikus are easy
But sometimes they don't make sense
Refrigerator

Re:read your history books, corporate goons

[circletimessquare]

i say tomato
and you say tomatillo
or rutabaga

Re:read your history books, corporate goons

[Anonymous Coward]

Credit has always been a weapon. The new thing is that the weapon is backfiring on its wielders - witness the credit crunch.

digital sharecropping

[SgtChaireBourne]

Intellectual property is an invention of the rich countries to force the poor countries into an economic model that benefits them. Knowledge has always been power, and the developed countries of the world realize that by locking up their books and restricting the free trade of information and knowledge, they can effectively keep those countries enslaved -- producing real, material goods, in exchange for imaginary ones.

digital sharecropping. nuff sed.

Re:digital sharecropping

[girlintraining]

digital sharecropping. nuff sed.

How interesting that you mention farming. The way copyright and patent law works now, it would be illegal for me to use irrigation and farming techniques any more modern than at least 1880 (150 years plus the life of the author). Think about that when people talk about the war on "piracy". It's not -- we're on the right side (by distributing this stuff for free and attacking their business model) but we're here for all the wrong reasons.

Hackers need to return to their roots: Deep down inside, we know that free access to technology is a liberating and empowering experience. We've become complacent -- certain that we'll crack whatever protection scheme they invent, and comfortable with the labeling of criminal and pirate. We think we're too hard to find, too decentralized, and it would be too expensive to take us out. That arrogance will kill this community and everything it stands for.

We need to give the disadvantaged access to the collective's knowledge. That's always been our purpose. It's the guiding principle behind open source -- and piracy and breaking copy protection is just the cheap way to avoid having to reinvent the wheel. But we have to... Because otherwise we'll have to wait through three generations of humanity growing up to have access to what we do today. We need the old school hacker mindset more now than ever before -- and we need to understand the golden age is at its end. We're about to go toe to toe with Goliath -- a worldwide cooperative of corporations, governments, and private interests with trillions of dollars at their disposal, secret treaties, courts, and increasing levels of control over the media.

This is not a conspiracy theory. This is not someone crying wolf. This is out there, it's real, and it's happening now -- and we are acting like The Pirate Bay and torrents are a blow against these faceless powers. We still have people like Richard Stallman and his precious GPL, and we argue over and over again about the merits of a change in language. Typical geeks -- we focus on the details and fail to see the big picture. There are over five billion people living in complete poverty, and intellectual property is one of the barriers keeping them there.

Re:digital sharecropping

[mrrudge]

But let's view it from the other direction. You're one of the big fish, making decisions that affect the outcomes of wars, millions of dollars, lives and deaths. This academic network or whatever has suddenly given the people of the world an ability to communicate with each other, swap files, it's grown incredibly fast and it has no centralised power with which to negotiate.

You're used to being in a position where the majority of information disseminated to the public is informed by you, and has repercussions should it displease you. People have cameras and can publish to a medium which never forgets from their pocket, and finding the likeminded has never been easier.

The old rules are of control. As a big fish your need is to control this, it threatens position, and your career and life is position.

How ? Take it on as a problem, it's worldwide but you have infinite resources and must appear to be doing it *for* the people ? How do you stop that one person in a basement somewhere finding a chink and telling others ( and what does increased fear and control do to the chances that someone would try ) ? How do you stop the Internet encrypting itself almost overnight ( what happens if the top twenty free Internet apps suddenly include tor by default ) ? Elegantly designed to withstand the destruction of a large part of the Earth's surface by nuclear attack is pretty toughened.

The Internet used to be C90 cassette tapes in my jacket pocket, and now I can get 500Gb in there.

Re:digital sharecropping

[Foobar of Borg]

The way copyright and patent law works now, it would be illegal for me to use irrigation and farming techniques any more modern than at least 1880 (150 years plus the life of the author).

Patents only last 20 years. Copyrights do not prevent you from making anything but another copy of the book/cd/dvd/etc.

sneaky...

[gedw99]

Lets face it. The "authorities" have now realised that the internet allows people to collaborate and learn openly whats really going on in the world, and how the puzzle fits togther. this to them is danderous. the cat is out of the bag, and now they are trying to gain control over it so they can manage the leaks as it were. Its crucial that the internet remain fully open !!!! Its thats simple. More groups that support open information should be targettting these groups hard. This is the type of thing that the authorities will try to slide in to legislation as part of trade agreements like they do with all the other things. Dont support treaty x, y and z - Sorry you cant trade with us. Its really insidious and smart tactic they use.

Re:sneaky...

[idontgno]

The "authorities" have now realised that the internet allows people to collaborate and learn openly whats really going on in the world, and how the puzzle fits togther. this to them is danderous

:) As in, "makes their scalps itch and shed flakes?"

I know, that's just a typo, but it's a good one. Almost Freudian: this kind of freedom of information makes their skin crawl.

Anyway, this comment (without typo) brought to mind a Monty Python sketch most apropos:

He's that most dangerous of creatures, a clever sheep. 'e's realized that a sheep's life consists of standin' around for a few months and then bein' eaten. And that's a depressing prospect for an ambitious sheep.

Let's hear it for dangerous sheep!

Re:sneaky...

[Hurricane78]

Its crucial that the internet remain fully open !!!! Its thats simple.

Nah. Not even. If only one single stream of communication remains open, that’s enough to pipe the whole internet trough. If we have, we pipe every tcp/ip packet trough twitter. If we have, we form direct wlan-to-wlan nets. We do not even need providers in any city of reasonable size. Soon with mobile phones, this will even become bigger. In theory, you can use any mobile phone as a gateway.

The can/box, and it won’t ever close again. It’s that simple.

Re:sneaky...

[pilgrim23]

What does it matter? I can hear all I need to of Tiger Woods on all the major networks. They also broadcast the latest Hollywood scandals and who is sleeping with whom. All the Internet does is talk about oppressed people Whatchamacalitstan and other places like France (which I think is near Iowa).

Re:sneaky...

[Anonymous Coward]

truth.

Re:sneaky...

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is... we don't. That is, most of us won't. Most people won't be knowledgeable enough, and most people won't even care.

A few people may be able to do that and actually utilise the possibility but would it reach the mass to actually have any effect on any real decision-making? Information is necessary but not sufficient -- a few might have the information but that alone doesn't guarantee practical results. You'd need the mass for that.

DDOS on the law?

[dshk]

There seems to be a way to screw the three-strike scheme:
At least a third of the adult internet subscribers of a country starts to illegally download a song, then they report themself to the police. The author of that song guarantees that he will not seek any damages. Neither the police is able to handle so many cases, nor it is acceptable for the government to disconnect millions of Internet subscribers.

Re:DDOS on the law?

[orgelspieler]

Interesting idea, but you'll never get enough people to agree to report themselves. It would make for an interesting short story, though. I wonder if the same would work for speed limit laws. Millions of people break them every day. Will a cop even give you a ticket if you just pull up beside him, roll down your window and confess? "Hey I just ran a stop sign back there, and I'm feeling guilty about it."

Re:Wow.

[StreetStealth]

Normally I'm against captain-obvious troll-feeding, but this is one case where I think a response is merited.

ACTA awareness needs to reach as far as it possibly can. We are, quite literally, talking about the future of the world here: A global treaty that promises to have a profound effect upon the freedom of all of us is being negotiated in secret.

The maximum must be brought to light before the widest audience. If that means dupe stories, then I'm all for dupes.

If you're not doing anything wrong

[The Altruist]

you have nothing to worry about. Unless, of course, a disgruntled employee / competitor / girlscout-you-didn't-buy-cookies-from gives your name to the Business Software Alliance. Then it's the Spanish Inquistion / Salem Witch Trials / Mc Carthy Trials all over again.

New World Order

[kurt555gs]

Ever wonder what that phrase meant?

It means a few elite rich folks controlling, well, everyone else regardless of silly little local laws or constitutions.

Re:New World Order

[idontgno]

Welcome to the 21st Century revival of Feudalism.

I for one welcome my media overlord, as a good serf should. I hope I don't pressed into his peasant militia in his campaign against his neighboring Baron.

Re:New World Order

[hitmark]

oh, modern feudalism have been here for a while now.

i would claim it got started ones USA made corporations citizens...

All I can say is...

[Penguinisto]

...if you're not participating in FreeNet by now, you'd damned well better start. It's likely to be the last place left (assuming it isn't outlawed).

Re:All I can say is...

[sowth]

Not that I am against Freenet, but how is it going to protect you against a "three accusations and your ISP cuts you off" law? In this respect, Freenet will probably screw you. After all, say one freesite hosts 3 images of Mickey Mouse, then all the movie studio "representative" has to do is access them through your node, and you will be cut off.

But this "three strikes" law is worse. As we have seen with the DMCA, you just need 3 assholes to want to censor you to cut you off. The question is will you be allowed to hook up with another ISP? ...assuming you have more than one broadband ISP in your area.

What we really need is an adaptive network / communication system independent of the internet. Methods which would allow you to exchange, say a hard (or flash) drive with a friend, and they just connect the drive to their computer. All the data on the drive is sorted through and things which are desirable to your friend are copied to his computer. I'm not just talking about audio and video files, but also stories, books, pictures, even Usenet messages.

This doesn't have to be hollywood stuff either. If you look in the right places, there are plenty of people who like to create things in their spare time. There are probably programs to do much of this already, but I'm sure they still need some work so the average computer user can run them.

A similar protocol could be used for intermittent wifi connections too. For example, all the people on the same bus could have their computers in a sort of exchange / sleep mode instead of fully asleep. Their computers would exchange as much info as possible during the bus ride.

Using these methods, I think one could exchange as much info as on a broadband connection to the internet, without some of the hassle. Though it would have its own hassles, it may be worth it.

Easy solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's take on politics then: http://www.piratpartiet.se/international/

The Results of Being Off The Net

[pky666]

You may recall the funny little article from "The Onion" that discussed Google's new opt out feature that allowed paranoid users to remove any traces of their online presence. The three strikes law for DMCA violations would simply add you to this list without going to all the troubles of signing up.

You sound like Fox Mulder...

[MikeRT]

That, people, is the true objective of intellectual property. You people think they care about you making pirate copies of CDs and DVDs? How pathetically self-centered! The truth is much bigger than your hard drive contents.

As a matter of fact, I think they do because there is no other reason why the RIAA and MPAA would go after so many students if they were really just secret imperialistic stooges hoping to maintain our global hegemony. The truth is that the developing world would benefit from greater IP protection, as IP currently has functionally **no** protection in most of it. India in particular would greatly benefit from the sale of a lot more legitimate copies versus illegitimate copies of IP goods.

Furthermore, your argument falls apart in that if we were really so paranoid about them, we wouldn't be training their students in our universities to the level we are.

Re:You sound like Fox Mulder...

[girlintraining]

The truth is that the developing world would benefit from greater IP protection, as IP currently has functionally **no** protection in most of it.

The developing world would benefit more from spending all of their money developing infrastructure instead of licensing and importing it in exchange for their natural and human resources. Their economy is not like ours: The multiplication effect is such that for every dollar they invest in infrastructure, the return on investment would be three, even as much as five times. The multiplication effect is lower in developed countries because we are operating close to or at the production possibilities curve. Although it seems like only pennies on the dollar to license these technologies, for them it represents a major investment rather than part of the aggregate cost.

Re:You sound like Fox Mulder...

[bussdriver]

There is more than MUSIC and MOVIES to the whole "Intellectual Property" BS invented by the propagandists (aka Public Relations, as they call themselves.)

The RIAA and MPAA may not have direct reach in other nations, especially the ones where people are not so preoccupied with consumerism but they help support the imperial corporate movement because it benefits them locally and eventually internationally.

Agra Business is far more involved in the I.P. imperialism than the entertainment industry is. Look into Monsanto, United Fruit, etc. Nationally, there are nationalistic, corporatist, and harsh economic realities at stake. You have nations like the USA where they have little of substance offer; their economy runs on financial gambling (no exaggeration, they had to pass exceptions to gambling laws for derivative trading,) the military industry, healthcare, an oil backed currency, and I.P. Small business never counts despite it being a substantial part of the US economy. Its obvious what the USA will do and has been since the 70s either continue the easy trend to instability and constant effort to maintain it or a drastic change in direction requiring more change than Obama can ever vaguely promise - remember: Carter tried to change tack and look what happened-- it just accelerated in the other direction.

Long term it is going to get interesting.... People in the USA still haven't accepted (or know) that the EU has surpassed them as the biggest economy; they think their education is getting worse when it fact, the world is developing and catching up-- you can't maintain the same advantage when you're near the peak with little room for improvement and the others are approaching. (the "help" that is harming our school system is another issue-- and beside the main point. The BIG-O of this problem is the 1st world nations can't advance a whole lot more relatively and the others are developing algorithms approaching ours.) Plus you have the fact much of the US economic policies are based upon the 3rd world being ...well, 3rd world. The USA needs a WW3 to repeat what WW2 did for them in order to maintain and that not considering environmental and resource realities which can not be ignored this time.

technology tames the law

[Anonymous Coward]

Technology can't even finish that fucking movie of yours.

Re:Wow.

[Lumpy]

I agree, problem is most of us here in the USA are already used to the oppressive laws against consumers so we already do our DMCA violations in secret.

I have to live as if the SS will come smashing down my door in search of contraband. All because I'm a wierdo that wants to have his own Video on demand system with a server full of my DVD's, HDDVD's and Blu Rays, ready to play in any room.

I'm evil, destroying all that is American by not being patriotic and switching discs and cluttering up my living room with cabinets full of discs (Destroying the economy by not buying furniture to hold them! OMG!)

Honestly I took the stand that I don't give a rats-ass what laws are passed and what they say. The laws are un-just so I not only ignore them, I am in contempt of them. I'll do what I want, if I have to design in a system to automatically destroy "evidence" when they storm the house, then so be it. It's the price I pay for living in a country where we gave up being by the people and for the people.

The USA is for the Corporations and by the Corporations....Anyone saying otherwise is either blind or watches Fox News too much.

Timeline?

[Anonymous Coward]

So can we get to a different timeline where the DMCA didn't happen? Anybody got a time machine (or combination of stargates and solar flares)

Re:Wow.

[Hurricane78]

My view is, that the Internet by its very definition does not make it possible for such a treaty to be any more that a pipe dream.

We already have darknets, wich are way beyond the grasp of any legislation. They would have to literally shut down the internet, to even stop it for more than a month. After that everyone would just have a personal net with all the wlan nodes around, completely and literally routing around the net. Everyone who knows how to do it, will do it. And everybody else will ask those, to do it for them. Even if that becomes illegal, it will become like selling weed. (A war long lost.) But it won’t ever stop.
Because inside, everybody knows what is right and wrong. And that ACTA is not right. Even the hypocrites who say the opposite, secretly use Bittorrent.

Until there is nothing else left for them, than to give up.

First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win.

Democracy no?

[patrickthbold]

A lot of us live in "Democracies." Maybe some of us who don't suck should run for office. And maybe some others could help them out. I don't thing voting for change is enough in this day of age. We need people who are different that we can vote for first. Any takers?

Re:Democracy no?

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of us live in "Democracies." Maybe some of us who don't suck should run for office. And maybe some others could help them out. I don't thing voting for change is enough in this day of age. We need people who are different that we can vote for first. Any takers?

In the words of the legendary DNA :

"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."

-The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Who cares?

[mweather]

Negotiate in secret all you like, we'll see the finished product when Congress attempts to ratify it.

Re:Who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fixed a few typos... "we'll see the finished product after Congress ratifies it."

Re:Who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

So how does a bill get introduced that is not readable by the public? Or are you suggesting this has such broad support that the democrats and republicans will work together to limit the debate and it'll effectively get passed before anyone has a chance to read it? Or are you just a fucking idiot?

Re:Who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

So how does a bill get introduced that is not readable by the public?

Insert it in the middle of a 2000 page "economic stimulus package" or "health care reform act" or "climate change cap-and-trade bill" that "must be passed as soon as possible, don't bother reading it, we'll fix it later (except we never do because we need to fixate on the next (invented) crisis)".

What! Me cynical?

Re:Who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

And how would things be any different if they negotiated in public? If the press isn't going to cover the bill, they're certainly not going to cover the negotiations.

If you haven't already

[T Murphy]

Be sure to contact those representing you. Just one country has to push for openness to get this out for the whole world to see. I'm as cynical as the next person about my government, but I can't complain about the system if I don't try to use it.

Where's the "skeptics"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Where's the "skeptics"? Where are they when you need someone to throw great vitriol at the idea of One World Government?

We had plenty of them on anything that turned to global warming, so where are they now???

Re:Where's the "skeptics"?

[Anonymous Coward]

They just stopped caring about trying to warn everyone because nobody listens to them. The truth is just too horrible and most people prefer to put a banana in their ears.

Good luck with that.

[crhylove]

Nobody is going to follow the increasingly ridiculous IP laws. Nobody. Information should be available to all, free of charge. That was the recommendation of Ben Franklin, and he is certainly smarter than any of the corporate tools they've assembled to put together this inhuman legislation.

Brilliant.

[Dirtside]

Yeah, because perpetual copyright wasn't enough for these greedy fucktards.

It's not just RIAA/MPAA

[microbox]

Our economic system is predicated on perpetual growth -- and business interests have talked about IP as the new "gold" for decades. It is not an evil conspiracy, but rather, politicians and business leaders believe that they need to enact these laws for our system to continue to grow. It's not just the RIAA and MPAA, it's also the big phama and agricultural firms.

Personally, I think it is bullocks dreamed up by people who never created art in their entire lives. Nobody is going to pay for "IP" when they need food on the table. Furthermore, these laws will be used to silence the critics of political interests.

It is precisely the free exchange of ideas that creates intellectual wealth, which is why these laws are fundamentally counter-productive in their goals.

Re:Wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

$ISSUE awareness needs to reach as far as it possibly can. .. The maximum must be brought to light before the widest audience. If that means dupe stories, then I'm all for dupes.

People who forward me emails about Amber Alerts, find-a-home-for-this-dog, Obama-has-no-birth-certificate, Teabaggers-are-pro-big-government hypocrits, etc probably feel the same way. And yet, at some point, it becomes constant noise so I ignore it all.

One idea is to think that at some level of seriousness/importance, you draw a line: some stuff is ok to spam, some isn't. But everyone has different feelings about what's important and what isn't. If I complain about your spammy Amber Alerts, does that mean I hate children?

This leads to a better idea than drawing a line that "important" things may cross, and unimportant things may not cross : don't draw a line, and just say, "No spam, no matter how important it is." People can always read the original story, and if they don't, work on making it easier to find, or create more pointers to it and endorsements.

exiciting times!

[Phantom of the Opera]

As a cyberpunk RPG'r, I'm excited for the opportunity to live just a little cyberpunk.

It's starting.

Re:exiciting times!

[Anonymous Coward]

Look at you, hacker. A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting and sweating as you run through my corridors. How can you challenge a perfect, immortal machine?

Re:Wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

ACTA awareness needs to reach as far as it possibly can. We are, quite literally, talking about the future of the world here: A global treaty that promises to have a profound effect upon the freedom of all of us is being negotiated in secret.

But it is necessary to save the world's climate! Think of the children!

Clearly you are just another copyright denier.

Re:Wow.

[aronschatz]

I watch Fox News... Can you explain to me just how what you're feeling is the same as what I'm feeling? I'm tired of seeing our freedoms being flushed down the toilet by both parties.

Oh, you're probably painting me as a stupid person (for watching Fox News), right?

Re:Wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, you're probably painting me as a stupid person (for watching Fox News), right?

Nope , just a gullible one.

You weren't expexted to email your CV then

[Anonymous Coward]

You weren't expexted to email your CV then. Mostly because many people didn't have internet (and only businesses had broadband).

Rather like "My grandad didn't need a car to live" well now "everyone" has a car, you can do fuck all if you haven't got one...

Re:You weren't expexted to email your CV then

[Lord Maud'Dib]

At least their spelling and grammar would stay legible. Ask all those living in inner city areas without a car how they manage to live.

Re:You weren't expexted to email your CV then

[Anonymous Coward]

While I do agree with your sentiment,

well now "everyone" has a car, you can do fuck all if you haven't got one and live in the USA...

FTFY. I live in a mid-sized European city with great public transportation, and I never owned a car. Been working for 8 years, 4 different jobs in 3 cities.
OTOH, I now work from home, and would be REALLY screwed if my DSL line was cut.

Re:Wow.

[interkin3tic]

The USA is for the Corporations and by the Corporations....Anyone saying otherwise is either blind or watches Fox News too much.

I object! Blind people have a physical handicap, not a mental handicap, and should not be lumped together with Fox News viewers!

Btw

[Weezul]

I think the treaty also imposes French style three strikes laws which are a fundamental violation of human rights not that the internet has become so widespread. (Fine print : yes rights may be revoked by courts, but ACTA bypasses the courts.)

We've had almost continuously accelerating cultural, scientific, and technological advancement and increasing levels of freedom for quite some time now, most cultures have collapsed back upon idiocy eventually. Imho, copyright law and patent law have already achieved the same level of absurdity as civil servants being selected upon poetry prowess in ancient China or Islam's decent into traditionalism.

Re:too late to do anything about it...

[freescv]

Enjoyed your post but the damage being done by corps vs regular people who want to enjoy digital tv, not from cable but from Internet and are being criminalized for it WILL be fixed, one day... I bought http://www.opensourceg.com/ in hope of finding what hats to help make a daily voting machine online. To reform old bills (fix the damage), to vote on PROPOSED laws (online, all openly /w comments and shit, like slashdot for politics, they inspire me them /. guys) Best 15 bucks I spent. Puts my tribute and appreciation for Linux and Open Source code. I just wonder when the port to government will happen? 30 million Canadians (30,000,000+) 330 million Americans (330,000,000+) 60 million UK Residents (60,000,000+) 21 million Australia People (21,000,000+) Totaling roughly 441,000,000+ people. ALL being controlled by, what, 500 media guys? Even if it IS theft (it's not) it's every day use for most "normal" people online. Criminalizing everyone just further proves how corrupt our Government currently is. Time for an upgrade! Open Source Government! :D

So, you're ignoring them, right?

[soren100]

My view is, that the Internet by its very definition does not make it possible for such a treaty to be any more that a pipe dream.

First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win.

So, basically what you're saying is, is that you're at the "ignoring" stage of the whole process?

Re:So, you're ignoring them, right?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah, he just ridiculed them.

Re:So, you're ignoring them, right?

[Anonymous Coward]

mod parent up, extremely insightful.
first you ignore them, then you ridicule them, then you fight them, then they win...

Re:Wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, you're probably painting me as a stupid person (for watching Fox News), right?

... gullible ...

Couldn't find that one in the dictionary.

Re:Wow.

[Shakrai]

I have to live as if the SS will come smashing down my door in search of contraband. All because I'm a wierdo that wants to have his own Video on demand system with a server full of my DVD's, HDDVD's and Blu Rays, ready to play in any room.

Do you have a single example of someone having law enforcement smash down their door over the type of fair use activities that you've described? Do you have a single example of someone being sued in civil court over the fair use that you've described?

Re: United States of Corporate America

[gink1]

We better pay attention to ACTA and the new DMCA-like provisions of the Treaty - Because we will all be living under it as soon as our Congressmen vote on it!

Why? Because all it will take to ensure passage is to pay off Congress. And it will happen because Entertainment Companies see it as a great investment. And since almost all of them believe in supporting the Entertainment Industry in anyway, they would not even need the Millions to vote that way.

Also, ACTA will pass because that is how things have been done in the US for over 100 years!

Re:Wow.

[Catiline]

Do you have a single example of someone having law enforcement smash down their door over the type of fair use activities that you've described?

How quickly we do forget -- Dimitri Skylarov was arrested for enabling the sort of fair use activities described. Note also that "Sklyarov was being arrested for something that was perfectly legal in his jurisdiction" (Russia at the time having no anti-circumvention laws).

I see the ACTA as an attempt by the Global Powers to make the "decryption loophole" disappear - after all, if it's illegal to make circumvention tools anywhere, the Sklyarov arrest was a perfect execution of justice.

Re:Wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

The USA is for the Corporations and by the Corporations....Anyone saying otherwise is either blind or watches Fox News too much.

Or alternately, they prefer to recognize a complex reality rather than retreat into cartoonish fantasy where everything is black and white.

Re:Wow.

[aronschatz]

Hmm, 0, Offtopic for mine, +1 funny for the dude that spelled a wrong word making fun of me.

Strange that my offtopic post said that I'm tired of seeing our freedoms being lost, I believe that was the topic of the thread.

Where's the -1, Libertarian?

Short-sighted pipe dreamer yourself...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's trivially easy for the authorities to remove your "pirate" radio station equipment using existing legislation - what makes you think it's so difficult to send the coppers around and take your "pirate" wlan broadcasting equipment?
The war against weed is lost in some jurisdictions because you can grow it in your basement with virtually no external visibility - you can't have an effective wifi or wlan network without being deliberately visible - you're busted before you even start.
There are thousands of imprisoned inhalers who will testify that your war against weed is not "lost" by any means by the pharmaceutical, petrochemical and farm-ag industrials.

"Because inside, everybody knows what is right and wrong" - such sophistry is tagged +5 insightful ? Right and wrong do not exist, except in the individual's mind, and oddly enough, your mind is not the same as mine, therefore our appreciation of right and wrong are forcibly different. My "right" weed is my neighbour's "wrong" weed - or hadn't you noticed that in your private purple haze?

The war against the police-state-fascist-corporate-thieves is not a foregone conclusion - humans are easily swayed to act against their own interests. Your message sounds like you suggest we just chill out and let them die off naturally - sorry, buddy, you're going to have to get off your ass on this one, and make sure everyone else does as well. And it's a hard sell, explaining to the average non-techie why some invisible, amorphous secret treaty "to stop pirates" is that critical first step to an evil world police state.

Re:Wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

Every single RIAA victim for starters....

yes they used a easy route by using the sharing angle, but many simply ripped their own music and that music on their hard drive was used to add up the stupid-on-drugs number they used for the lawsuit.

automation is terrorism.

[sowth]

Oh yeah. Blame automation for taking "jobs" away. As if a machine doing something will require a person thousands of miles away to do something else in addition.

More likely it is this way because idiots rail against automation and insist everything be handmade, but they don't want to do all that extra labor (or any labor at all), so they ship the jobs to countries where the labor is cheaper.

I remember in the '90s when the news would show robots building cars whenever they talked about automakers. It made me proud. Now they show guys not only screwing in bolts by hand, but pushing the car themselves!?! WTF?

I will let you in on a little "secret:" if you have 100% automation, nobody has to do any work! That is why it is called automation. The labor force would then be free to do something else, even if that is just watching tv all day.

I don't understand your point. Why can't consumer grade stuff be made in the US? I have seen some, but not much. Really, we have enough technology to obsolete need for Chinese goods.

As for the debt problem, it will only be solved when spoiled people learn to live within their means. At least that seems to be the major reason. Psychopaths in major leadership positions of government and companies seems to be the second one.

Re:automation is terrorism.

[nido]

I will let you in on a little "secret:" if you have 100% automation, nobody has to do any work!

In the modern world, the upper class owns the machines, and the underclass collects unemployment.

As for the debt problem, it will only be solved when spoiled people learn to live within their means.

You obviously didn't read the link about the debt-based nature of our economy/money supply. There's another good article: "I Want the Earth plus 5%". Look it up.

Psychopaths in major leadership positions of government and companies seems to be the second one.

You're exactly right here. Psychopaths have designed a system to concentrate wealth in their own pockets.

Life in a Manorialism.

[sowth]

In the modern world, the upper class owns the machines, and the underclass collects unemployment.

Then I guess this means we live in a Manorialism. Maybe if people would think for themselves and learn how to do things for themselves, we wouldn't have to live like this. While working for companies and being under an employer has its place, doing work on your own / running a small business also has its place.

If you are able to earn some money while not employed (and you haven't overextended yourself), you don't have to be so paniked about losing your job. This allows employers to walk all over people. Tying health insurance to employment creates a similar problem (including others). Temp agencies and "cobra" insurance helps a little, but really, why can't we be allowed to control our own destiny?

Yes, I know the way they gear the economy these days, it basically penalizes you for not going into debt. I am also not saying you should never buy a house on debt. However, it seems many people use debt to continue a lifestyle they can't afford, which then cascades into a situation where they not only don't have any savings, but much of their paycheck goes into paying off debt.

I also know there are untrustworthy banks out there. That is why you think about who you do business with. Most local banks and credit unions didn't have anything to do with the government bailouts or anything to do with those centralized banks who took all the government money to pay their CEOs millions (or is it billions?) of dollars in "bonuses."

My bank is bailout free. So was the credit union I used before it. The bank I used before (in the '90s) was a centralized bank who screwed me several ways, so I said screw them. Don't just take it when people screw you. Look for alternatives. Sometimes there aren't any. Sometimes you have to look hard, but it is better than getting screwed all day.

If anything goes wrong in their life, even minor financial setbacks, then their life gets turned upside down. It also takes away choices. Want to move somewhere else? "Sorry can't afford to." Boss is a total bastard and the company is pushing you to do illegal things? "Well, I can't afford to lose a single paycheck, and if the company finds out I'm looking for another job, they'll fire me." Come down with the flu? "Oh crap, I missed two week's work, the company doesn't pay sick days anymore, so I'll miss quite a few payments and have to pay late charges on top of it!"

When people constantly live in a state like this, they basically have no freedom, and this is just one of many ways to lose your freedom. Don't give in to the rut of "do random actions so some guy pays me." The goal of work is to do something needed, not be someone's surf or slave.

The man who owns (I assume he owns it by how you said it) the machine shop is doing a good thing: increasing the value of the economy without submitting to an employer. That is how a person becomes self-sufficient. Yes, he may be beholden to other companies or people to buy his tubes, but hopefully if one bails out or he decides he should drop one customer, he will have others to fall back on. I don't see what is wrong with that. In fact, I think it is a very good thing.

Re:Life in a Manorialism.

[nido]

Well that's a nice post. Thanks.

I think I'm supposed to adopt your point of view somewhat. The wise man said to only spend a max of an hour a day on "bullshit conspiracy theories". When I asked for clarification, he confirmed that the conspiracy is bullshit because it doesn't matter for what I'm working on. My posts in this thread are rather "disempowered", and I need to change that outlook.

As soon as I finish fixing my printer (just cleaned the ink jet heads with water and windex, need to buy fresh ink), I think I'm going to print your comment out.

Thanks again.