Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Promises Not To Sue Moonlight 2.0 Users
darthcamaro writes "Moonlight 2.0, Novell's open source implementation of the Microsoft media framework, is now available and comes with a new patent promise from Microsoft. Any Linux user can use it now without worrying about being sued: '"A really important change in how the community and individuals will see and use Moonlight is a change and extension to the patent covenant that Microsoft provides to Novell and its end users," Brian Goldfarb, director of Web and user experience platforms at Microsoft, told InternetNews.com. "We're now increasing the reach of the agreement — Microsoft's commitment not to sue Novell or Novell's customers now extends to redistributors."'"
Does this mean that I can finally watch Netflix streams on Linux??
Steve O.
I am really, really exhausted.
until we change our mind.
Really, what's to prevent them from waiting until the tech is firmly embraced, then changing the deal?
Please use our format, even if we didn't sell you anything to view it, we promise we won't sue!
Now that's marketing in action.
"Moonlight 2.0, that's Novell's open source implementation of the Microsoft media framework in now available and with comes a new patent promise from Microsoft."
I, in turn, promise not throw a chair at Steve Ballmer's head.
>> What if I already wasn't worried about being sued because my country doesn't recognise software patents
Then you can add extradition, police acting in extralegal ways and WIPO to the list of things you don't worry about.
-- I was raised on the command line, bitch
Just how effective is it to hear "use our stuff - we won't sue!" as the marketing message?
Guess it's time to try a little test...
I promise not to sue anyone who buys my iphone apps.
There. We'll see how that works out for me.
*ducks under the desk for cover from the coming flames*
Without the DRM pack it is totally worthless. Plus it is far behind silverlight.
IT'S A TRAP!
I'm not the slightest bit interested. The only time I've ever used Silverlight is when I've watched SkyTV online in the UK as a media thingy for your browser. It doesn't interest me elsewhere (and I doubt whether that alone will sustain it long-term), as any kind of 'new' development platform (ActiveX 2.0?) and I'm certainly not interested in using it on non-Windows platforms because said media stuff doesn't work regardless. Just stop trying to legitimise Silverlight on other platforms because you aren't gaining any traction and stop using it to legitimise all of your patent bullshit. Anyone who works under that kind if duress, from a competitor no less, is stir-fry crazy.
This helps them to compete with flash much more effectively. Now they are putting rest on doubters to use it on linux. I think this is good. Also, this helps Adobe to work hard on developing much better support for Linux.
That's Microsoft Marketing at its best, isn't it? "Use stuff compatible with ours, we promise we won't sue you."
I thought we had hit rock bottom with Flash. I mean, it's one of the shittiest plugins around. Half the time it crashes your browser, and the other half of the time it typically doesn't work. When it does, it's used more often than not for stupid and annoying ads.
Then Microsoft, not to be outdone, unleashes the shit that is known as Silverlight. Not only is it less portable than Flash, but it runs even slower, if you can imagine that! XAML is a fucking joke. It's SVG gone stupid, like only Microsoft can make something go stupid. And they throw in DRM, just to sour the deal even further.
We don't need this sort of pure feces included in any Linux distro. Keep that sort of shit away from my computer, thanks.
That we have a (rather legitimate) concern of being sued for the arrangement of bits we have access to.
"Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
The problem is not being sued.
The problem is that we don't necessarily want this MS-driven environment to become popular among devs.
Save your wrists today - switch to Dvorak
The summary specifically says Linux and the article linked to doesn't expand that statement. What about running it on *BSD, Haiku, Minix, RTEMS, etc.? Reading a quote in the article carefully says "redistributors". What is a redistributor? A Novell reseller?
As a result of today's expansion of that deal, Moonlight users will enjoy protection under the patent covenant regardless of whether they're using Novell's (NASDAQ: NOVL) Linux distro or another distributor's.
"A really important change in how the community and individuals will see and use Moonlight is a change and extension to the patent covenant that Microsoft provides to Novell and its end users," Brian Goldfarb, director of Web and user experience platforms at Microsoft, told InternetNews.com. "We're now increasing the reach of the agreement -- Microsoft's commitment not to sue Novell or Novell customers now extends to redistributors."
The first sentence is the author's so reflects their interpretation. The second is a Microsoft person who uses the phrase "not to sue Novell or Novell customers now extends to redistributors". So who does that actually cover?
Mono still wont end up on any system i support or manage. If Microsoft wants Silverlight on Linux they have to release their own official client. Moonlight is still crap, buggy and hopelessly behind Silverlight.
The funny thing is that Microsoft already have promised a Silverlight port to Linux through maemo but with de Iqaza helping them implementing the mono trap in Linux they wouldnt dream of stopping that stupid implementation.
The worst thing you can do in the computing world is play nice with Microsoft. Countless of companies along the roadside is proof of that.
HTTP/1.1 400
If somebody starts screaming "NO! I'M NOT GOING TO KILL YOU" what should you do? I don't know about you, but I'm running as fast as hell away from that person.
When Steve Balmer says "Fucking Eric Schmidt is a fucking pussy. I'm going to fucking bury that guy, I have done it before, and I will do it again. I'm going to fucking kill Google." we are not supposed to believe this is an actual threat, but when he says "we won't sue you", we're supposed to believe he's telling the literal truth?
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
IT'S A TRAP!!!
Perhaps Linux users would feel better if Microsoft was actually hosting the downloads, etc? Maybe pay for a token part time developer?
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
I'll start believing Microsoft when they change the slogan for their new operating system to: Windows 7 -- At least it doesn't suck as much as Vista!
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
My son seen a naked pic of bill gates on bing, he wont even talk no more. Im scared shitless
What happens to developers? Just in case, we fork out Novell's moonlight tree because they got bought by someone (*cough* mysql, *cough*), will the conventant apply to us? Or does it only apply to code written by Novell & redistributed by others? Does this indirectly kill the freedom to modify & redistribute? like that firefox logo thing?
Alright, I admit it, I do have an axe to grind against silverlight (and flash too, I guess). But this covenant just goes on to establish precedent in terms of patent coverage ... (yes, note my domain, I've been through this before).
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur
I'll start believing Microsoft when they change the slogan for their new operating system to: Windows 7 -- At least it doesn't suck as much as Vista!
They've used that for every new release so far. Why stop now?
"I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it." : Dogbert
If you think this new is... spam it's because you read this two words in the same paragraph: "Microsoft" and "promise". Who can trush such new?
If you think this new is... publicity it's beacuse you read this: "extension to the patent covenant that Microsoft provides to Novell and its end users". AKA: don't wrote your own "moonlight" or you'll be sued.
Truth? This' just trash.
thatsnomoon
Estoppel. [...] look this one up.
It would probably help even more if you told us what it meant.
Let me Google that for you.
There's an Apple ad for that!
Still I don't trust Microsoft and I have plentiful good reasons for not doing so. Thus I have no intention of ever installing Mono and would strongly discourage anybody else from using it.
Hmmm....
As was (once again) pointed out on Groklaw recently, this sort of language is a restriction that is incompatible with the GPL. (GPLv2 section 6, much more explicit about patents in GPLv3 section 11.)
Far safer to avoid Microsoft patented technology than to rely on such a promise.
This is stupid. Extradition does not apply to patnets. Patents are civil law and extradition is limited to criminal procedure.
However the gist is correct, if you violate a patent issued outside your country and do business outside your country, you are liable to be sued and go through a most painful and expensive process.
Note however that YMMV depending on what countries have what trade agreements with what other countries.
A promise is not legally binding, right? TFA doesn't provide much detail but I'm a bit skeptical that the Moonlight EULA says anywhere in it, "we will not sue you for using this software."
Perhaps a legal-type person can shine some light (pun!) on the situation.
Then you should worry about the B52's .
I hereby promise to you Moonlight on any my Linux machines. So we're cool, right?
Then you should worry about the B52's .
But... the love shack...
Microsoft's commitment not to sue Novell or Novell customers now extends to redistributors.
Hmm...may be its the technology? Perhaps no in else is interested in it?
Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
Well, I use it to upload massive (I mean massive) files over Web Services. I've tried Flash, a downloadable Windows application, a Java Web Start application, a downloadable Java application, ActiveX plugins etc. etc. etc.
The best way to upload large files in the browser is Silverlight right now...
"You can use this software and not worry about us suing you."
You just can't look at that sentence and not think the whole industry needs to be torn down and rebuilt on new principles. Whether it's the fact that Microsoft and Novell are glad to make such a proclamation, or the fact that someone can be sued for using software to begin with, or the fact that I can get sued by company Y for using company X's product or even if that isn't possible the fact that anyone might think it might be possible.
What kind of industry is this? I think I just grew a gland that secretes RMS ideology in my brain just from digesting that headline.
Blearf. Blearf, I say.
The article does not contain an actual link to an actual Microsoft statement.
Before I buy this I want to see the actual statement and see legal analysis of iot to see what catches there are.
Examples:
If this is based on the Novell agreement then it only extends to Novell customers, not to all of linux.
If this is like the the Community Promise for Mono, then what prevents them from selling the patents to patent trolls to sue Moonlight users?
They already tried this once: http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/171589/open_source_group_buys_microsoft_patents_to_ward_off_patent_trolls.html
fortunately they sold to the wrong patent trolls.
That is the only site that I care about that uses Silverlight. If I can, great. But I tried it last Sunday, with the latest update from the Ubuntu repositories, and I was instructed to install Silverlight. I feel much better that they won't sue me for using their bitch-slap technology to be prevented from watching content, though. I had been losing sleep over that.
Moonlight 3.0 users, watch out
This element stood out for me:
"Moonlight includes the Microsoft Media Pack, which is a set of proprietary codecs that Microsoft has licensed from their own patent holders and makes available to Moonlight users, free of charge."
Kriston
A document was found, that showed that Hitler promised not to attack other countries and leave the Jews alone.
Also the pope just revealed that he had a phone call with the devil, who promised not to take away your soul, if you sold it to him.
And now for something completely different... THE LARCH! ... a gourmet tree, and fine dam material.
Thank you for watching otter news!
P.S.: And you thought it was a typo... Ha! ^^
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
Moonlight 2.0, that's Novell's open source implementation of the Microsoft media framework in now available and with comes a new patent promise from Microsoft.
It reads like it's three sentences jammed together, it's missing a comma, and I assume "in" is supposed to be "is" and it's still an awkward sentence.
The Quirkz Handbook of Self-Improvement for People Who Are Already Pretty Okay
Promised not to sting the frog.
All I can think of is the Fam Guy episode with James Woods: eww a peice of candy... eww a peice of candy...
"Hey, here's this technology... we won't try and ruin your life if you use it."
So, uh, what's the good part?
This is my sig.
Judge them by their past actions not words. It's the same old trick we have seen again and again. If you embrace this standard, you will be extended and extinguished. I won't be surprised if there is suing down the line too, despite these promises, which no doubt only cover EXACTLY what there is now, under EXACT circumstances. They are fighting not just for their dominance but their way of doing software. It just takes my breath anyway anyone buys it to this. But these tend to be people who believe everything will be .NET/Mono and the whole thin client thing, sorry cloud thing too. Not sure how fat apps fit into the thin client view, but there you go....Maybe it will work better than it did last time with Java and thin clients, maybe BECAUSE of MS's embrace, extend, extinguish. But if it does, it will do nothing but greatly harm any platform not MS's, which harms everyone. Think IE without Firefox turning up, or Windows (Vista) without Linux netbooks turning up.
So what if the Linux bazaar acts globally? Betcha didn't any further than the length of your own nose...
Here be signatures
One of the main reasons I got into open source software is because I didn't like the idea that newer versions of software could cost anything.
Why invest time in learning Photoshop when this version costs $600 but the next version may cost $3,000.
Some might say, just keep using the version you already bought. What happens when you can't buy a computer that comes with an OS that your version is compatible with?
Microsoft saying, "We won't sue users of Moonlight 2.0", is saying what about 2.0.1, or 2.5, or 4.0.
There's nothing to worry about; the program is named wontsueforsure.
Sun tried this with Java. Then it was Flash and Adobe's latest RIA junk. Now it's Silverlight. All this cross platform crap is ever used for is mindless little games and controls on movie players, and a few applications by developers who don't know any better and who end up producing horrid interfaces.
Give it up, guys. AJAX is as cross-platform as it's gonna get, and AJAX works because the browser isn't trying to be a desktop UI and because people invest a lot of time in making HTML work right across platform. Nothing that Java, Flash, or Moonlight are going to do are even going to come remotely close in terms of usability.
Good thing the copyright holders, the ones that applied the GPL to the code, aren't making the statement.
I can license code all day long and follow the GPL to the letter and spirit perfectly, and someone else can still come along and sue you because the code violates one of its patents.
I can't GPL some code and that instantly protects anyone who uses it from being sued by another unrelated party.
Basically what it comes down to is that you as an end user won't use the software because you are worried about being sued by a 3rd party, completely unrelated to GPL.
Thats just dumb. You can call it principal if you want, but its still dumb. You can not use it because it offers nothing of value. You can not use it because it doesn't work for you. You can not use it because its crappy software. To not use it, and intentionally deny yourself access to media just because you don't like that some guys wrote some software that acts like someone elses and some other guy MIGHT sue you if you use it, EVEN though they promised not to ...
Lets go over the reasons its silly:
A) They promised not to sue, publicly. Pretty much ends any legal grounds they had right there, so your worry is over something that doesn't exist.
B) MS has never sued anyone over Moonlight, or the dot net framework in general.
C) You are running an OS, written by a guy, who was basically copying the way someone elses software ran. He didn't even get a promise to not be sued
D) As an extension to C: You are in fact running an OS which resulted in companies getting sued because it may have violated patents or copyrights or whatever the hell the SCO case really tried to claim.
So you are more concerned with the software product for which you've been given a promise not to be sued, then you are about the software product which has been involved in law suits of the very type you are concerned about ...
Doesn't seem like your point of view is very logical to me.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
>What if I already wasn't worried about being sued
>because my country doesn't recognise software patents
What if one would live in a country that do not only recognize software patents but also makes it criminal to infringe them (something for example proposed in Europe not long ago)? Since one doesn't have a license one would still infringe the patent even if Microsoft agrees to not press charges.
Or what if the patent for some reason would end up in someone elses hand than Microsoft? Again since one doesn't have a license, one can be in trouble.
I am no fanboy. My machine has an NVIDIA card and tuns of closed-source games on it.
That said, I am not stupid. I know that if Silverlight ever becomes a dominant force in the realm of content delivery, MS will stab me in the back by either deliberately slowing development on the Linux version, or making it incompatible with the latest version that runs on Windows.
We should stick with Flash. It may suck, but at least it isn't controlled by a monopoly OS vendor who lacks any kind of ethics.
Is this giving Microsoft a future "exception that proves the rule" argument? Sort of like "I hereby give each of you permission to walk on the public sidewalk in front of my house for the next three days."
To push out Flash entirely, even at Newgrounds, Microsoft will need to add vector animation playback to Silverlight and put an editor into the next Visual Studio. The Mono team will add it to Moonlight a version later, and Novell or someone else on the MonoDevelop team will probably add a converter from the native format of one of the existing 2D tools that h4rr4r mentioned.
And while legacy SWF objects still exist, a complete replacement for Flash will need to play legacy SWF objects. This is why free software can have both Gnash and Moonlight.
How much does the software need to be modified until it is not covered by the covenant anymore?
Or is that impossible?
If so, they could just as well give up the patents... so I don't think that is the case.
So at least it is some kind of trap.
If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
What I read is this:
Microsoft promises that in an effort to do anything to increase the adoption of Silverlight and applications/plug-ins compatible with it, they will not sue Moonlight 2.0 users; but instead intend on waiting for mass adoption of Silverlight, the extinguishing of Flash and such as is normal for their "embrace" stage of their plan and the final "extend" and "extinguish" stages.
StarTrekPhase2 - The Five Year Mission Continues!
MS apologists have constantly insisted that the promise was perfectly safe then and that there was nothing left for MS to do, now MS has indirectly admitted they had to extend the terms of the promise because of lack of adoption,
But don't worry NOW you are safe, MS is sooooo cool and Silverlight is so awesome! We all should move all of our development to Silverlight because now we won't get sued, and if MS extends its promise we are going to get sued even less!
But... the future refused to change.
Let me guess, this is going to be permanently outdated like Mono and there were no catches they'd just say it's free. They will revoke the promise when it suits them.
That and from my experience of Silverlight on Windows, it's shit. As far as Flash replacements go, it's like replacing a turd with a turd that's been polished with your father's semen.
From "DOS ain't done till Lotus won't run" right up to the very recent destruction of international standards bodies in order to push their office file formats, Microsoft has proven time and again that they operate at a level of maliciousness far beyond general corporate sociopathy. They've had several decades and countless opportunities to prove otherwise, and they have chosen not to do so. Anyone who believes that Microsoft is moving away from the Dark Side is deluded to the point of insanity.
If Microsoft truly wants to turn a new leaf, they will still need to spend at least a decade doing good things before people will even start giving them the benefit of the doubt. They may never be able to gain anything resembling trust.
I run ubuntu on every computer I own apart from my mac mini (OSX obviously), but that's basically been ubuntu's release strategy as well.
"Ubuntu X.YY: most things suck less than before, but we probably fucked up sound again"
"Ubuntu X.YY+1: most things suck less than before even more, I think we fixed sound"
"Mythbuntu X.YY+1: we just removed the sound engine so that it will work"
Who the fuck would use that shit anyway? Why the fuck is Migeal De Whatever pimping Microsoft shit onto FOSS?
Note that this promise was only made for Moonlight users.
I'll take "Moonlight user" to mean "user of Moonlight software". Is a program "Moonlight software" if it is a derivative work of Moonlight, such as a program that contains one complete function copied from the Moonlight source code pursuant to the license of Moonlight?
From the pledge:
So this basically rules out the GPL. What a wank. This also only applies only to "Covered Implementations" which at the moment are undefined. So they "cover" moonlight 2.0 and then neglect to cover 2.1.
They have given nothing.
I am not a robot. I am a unicorn.
It is strange that while MS keeps making promises, Novell - which includes Icaza who is always eager to promote the idea of making moonlight gnome's plasma - does not seem willing at all to drop their exclusive shield that is the now infamous patent deal. For some reason, we second class users and also the "second class" distributors have to rely on all these promises and legalese which apparently are not enough for Novell which depends not on these 'promises' but on such deal...
Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
This is an important question.
Microsoft has already tried selling patents that could undermine Linux to patent trolls. If they have embeded patented methods in Mono/Moonlight, they could spring the trap at any time by selling the patent or transferring it to a proxy (like SCO).
Interestingly too, the promise very specifically only covers Moonlight.
"This patent covenant only applies to Moonlight and the version of Mono that ships with Moonlight," Goldfarb said.
The failure to extend the promise to Mono would suggest Microsoft would still like to retain the option of preventing any non-Novell Linux distro from including the full Mono at some point in the future.
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
No amount of promises from Microsoft can get me to even think about Microsoft proprietary technology in my Linux system. I am not against closed source (I use Flash), but Microsoft has been "targeting" Linux for over 10 years, and even paid for a lawsuit-by-proxy through SCO.
No. I'll have none of that. Fuck you.
--
BMO
I'm sure this reflects what the PR office for MS thinks should be done more than the people running MS. The problem is that the PR office doesn't actually run MS. If someone on top gets it through their head that moonlight is causing them a loss in profit I doubt this "promise" will last.
"It's a trick. Get an axe."
I enjoy large posteriors and I cannot prevaricate.
They can't sue me because I won't use it.
Will the Silverlight 3 content work on Mono 2 plugin without ANY MODIFICATIONS? OK, it is Mono, open source guys won't like your DRM right? Tell me one more thing... Will Silverlight 3 content work on OS X without ANY MODIFICATIONS?
On the other hand, Flash 10 content will work exactly the same on 3 different desktop OS'es and soon (if not already for some), all mobile devices.
MS, you played your hand and lost it. Please, get rid of your puppets, start coding a EQUAL plugin for all Desktop and Mobile devices and ship it. I promise I will install and use it if you absolutely promise you won't break any kind of compatibility in the future no matter what happens.
I hadn't realized that the "promise" was version based, I simply assumed the promise for 1.0 also counted for version 2.0, but now I (with my amazing analytical skills) think that it's just a matter of getting people hooked.
1) Extend functionality to linux, promise not to sue
2) Users start using mono-based applications on linux
3) Once a large enough % of users has been reached, withdraw promise from next version
4) Linux users lose their favorite apps but microsoft lures them with the promise that they still work in windows!
Note that this will never work on hardcore linux users, but it's an effective strategy for the "let's see what this ubunter is all 'bout" crowd.