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"Home Batteries" Power Houses For a Week
tjansen writes "Panasonic has announced plans to create 'home batteries.' They are lithium-ion batteries large enough to power a house for a week, making energy sources such as solar and wind power more feasible. Also, you can buy energy when it is cheapest, and don't need to worry about power outages anymore."
I don't trust lithium-ion technology enough to want something with that much capacity in my basement. Wouldn't want my house to look like this
I have a thousand watt-hour battery that runs my sump pum during a power failure, but it's lead-acid. They've been around for a loooong time and are pretty damn stable (even so, this one is in a concrete-walled sump room.) Lithium-ions have a ways to go before they can be considered as trustworthy, and their higher energy density just makes them that much more dangerous during a catastrophic failure. Yet another reason why I'd never buy a hybrid vehicle. The idea of sitting atop a massive lithium-ion battery pack makes me far more nervous than I've ever been about a tank of gasoline.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
We go from the future:
"Panasonic has announced plans to create 'home batteries."
That is, the batteries don't exist yet.
BUT:
Also, you can buy energy when it is cheapest [only there's nowhere to store it at the moment], and don't need to worry about power outages anymore [well actually you still have to worry, because they haven't actually invented the battery yet].
Who wrote this? I see a brilliant future for you writing prospectuses for investment bank companies. This is just hype. I for one will not be buying the $150k batteries that need special zoning permissions and need to be replaced every 3 years.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Can we get an actual source, not one that injects pointless banal commentary, and actual shows where they got their information? kthxbai
Wow, I can save pennies off my electricity! Now, how many centuries does it take for the battery to pay itself off?
You don't see it as a cost saving measure? If you can charge the thing during off-peak hours, then run your house off the battery during peek hours, that's a fairly obvious "cost saving measure".
Of course, if you can save $1000 over two years but the battery runs you over $10000, it's not ready for prime time.
I would, since the status quo is no battery at all.
Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
Sorry, but if they have only just "announced plans", then, for the foreseeable future, I still can not power a house for a week, and I still need to worry about power outages.
Wake me up, when I can pick these up at Lowe's... Or, at least, order them online somewhere...
Indeed, TFA itself uses the proper tenses and gives the ETA for what currently can only be called "vaporware":
CmdrTaco, WTF?..
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Some of these technologies are of no use to those of us that live in areas where the cost of energy is consistent all day and night and year round.
Part of that maybe the problem (no intelligence in the infrastructure). But in the meantime if I were to have solar or any other resource put up that would benefit from stored energy for later use, it'll throw the payback vs normal utility curve way off to where I'd have to live here for decades to get my money back in anything but smugness.
As far as LI battery technology, it seems that the Prius used NMhd batteries because the number of charge discharge cycles was greater, since the batteries in the story were expected to have a cycle per day, the owner would have to replace them realistically every 3-4 years.
As far as the greater energy content of LI batteries, that is a risk that is always present with batteries. As long as the controller / charger is smart and has a layer or two of fault checking, the risk of runaway thermal events is pretty low. (The problem people had with Lithium Ion AA cell batteries where they are available was when people put them into standard NiCad or NiMh chargers, which apply too much current too quickly and make them pop to start fires. Since this is an integrated system by Panasonic with no capacity to mix and match technology evident, I'd say the risks is low.)
It would be possible with standard deep cycle lead acid batteries, but than you have to have climate control for your batteries above and beyond that proposed, and than your dedicating a good chunk of floorspace to batteries (You can't stack them because of heat buildup when discharging). I know the Central Offices I've been in have had a good chunk of their floorspace dedicated to just power, and even than only for the few minutes it takes for the diesel to kick over .. and you don't want to know what happens to expensive telephone equipment when it starts getting fed progressive amounts lower than 48VDC.)
If you can charge the thing during off-peak hours, then run your house off the battery during peek hours, that's a fairly obvious "cost saving measure".
You're right, of course, but the power companies will find a way to take those savings away from you if this becomes popular, you know that. Well, at least the one in my State certainly would, that is, if they didn't get a law passed to make home power storage flat-out illegal. Wouldn't put that past them either. They're bloodsuckers: for example, manufacturers that try to set up self-generating facilities to save money generally find themselves in court. Power companies are like record companies: they don't want anything to interfere with the way they distribute their wares, even if those changes might prove highly beneficial and profitable. Excessively conservative, I guess you could say.
Of course, if you can save $1000 over two years but the battery runs you over $10000, it's not ready for prime time.
No argument there. I wouldn't buy into this just for the express purpose of lowering your electric bill. Really it's more for peace of mind, I suppose.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Large UPS are common for data centers. But they are expensive and time consuming to maintain. In a data center the cost and time are justified. But for a home I would question the value.
The only advantage of lithium batteries is high energy density, which is irrelevant for a static installation. For powering something as long lasting as a house it would be better to use something more robust. Nickel-iron batteries have low energy density but are very robust. I wouldn't want a house battery I'd have to replace every few years.
I'd prefer an EESU from EESTOR (if that ever happens), since it would be cheaper on a buck-per-Joule level and it would last for a very, very long time. Second to that, nickel-iron batteries, which are heavy and inefficient, but survive much abuse and have working lifetimes far longer than that of most other batteries. Pity they are no longer made in the United States; much of their price is presumably in just shipping them here.
I would, since the status quo is no battery at all.
The cool kids on the block already have natural gas generators hooked up to their houses in the case of power outage, and I would guess that a natural gas generator would last significantly longer at a significantly lower TCO than any currently available battery technology (when at the scale of powering a house).
both wrong. the periodic table has nothing to do with commonness.
From: http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/senese/101/periodic/faq/what-element-is-most-abundant.shtml :
"On earth, oxygen is the most common element, making up about 47% of the earth's mass. Silicon is second, making up 28%, followed by aluminum (8%), iron (5%), magnesium (2%), calcium (4%), sodium (3%), and potassium (3%). All of the remaining elements together make up less than 1% of the earth's mass."
Sig out of date
For the purpose of storing intermittent wind and solar power,
the electric utility companies could use mass installations of
these batteries. Assuming they don't have hydro dams to
run in reverse using the wind and solar, that is.
Just like it doesn't actually make sense for everyone on your block
to own a lawnmower or circular saw or carpet steam cleaning machine,
it doesn't really make economic sense for everyone to have their own
batteries either. A central utility could buy and maintain batteries
with economies of scale.
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
Also, you can buy energy when it is cheapest
You can charge them at night if your power company has lower rates at night. It's pointless though as any savings in the cost disappear in the inefficiencies of the ac->dc for charging, the heat losses during charging, and the dc->ac conversion to use that power again. A 10% savings in the power cost is stupid when you give up %15 of the energy trying to save it.
Power companies are like record companies: they don't want anything to interfere with the way they distribute their wares, even if those changes might prove highly beneficial and profitable.
Really? All power companies?
http://www.aps.com/main/green/choice/solar/default.html?source=hme
The lack of lithium in the universe is one of the great unsolved mysteries in astronomy.
In solar fusion, it is rather difficult to form Li from H and He. The "normal" form of He is He-4. If H-1 is added to this, Li-5 is formed. However, Li-5 is not stable, and decays to He-5, which decays to He-4. Therefore, it is not possible to form stable Li using the most abundant isotopes of H and He.
Heavier elements are usually formed by combining multiple He-4 nuclei. This can give Be-8, C-12, O-16, and so on. These elements and isotopes show correspondingly high abundances in the universe as a whole.
In order to form any isotope of Li, the Li-5 step must be completely avoided. Instead of adding H-1 to He-4, either H-2 or H-3 must be added, forming stable Li-6 or Li-7. The H-2 and H-3 are present in much lower concentrations than H-1, and so we are much less likely for these to interact with He-4. There is some interaction, which is where the current Li comes from.
Deep cycle lead acid can last a lot longer than that with shallow cycling, intelligent charging and the use of a desulphator. Mine are over ten years old now, work fine. They've lasted that long because I never beat on them.
Telco exchanges had/have big aquarium looking lead acid backup batteries that lasted twenty years then tons got sold off cheap to enthusiasts where they were put into service for the earlier adopter off grid solar guys. This is *old* mother earth news and home power magazine info, and the battery subject has been looked at in depth by literally hundreds of people, and year after decade lead acid still rules for the cash involved for large applications, until you get to utility scale, where it is pumped water storage and turbines, etc.
Lead acid is still the king for stationary storage purposes when it comes to amp hours/dollars, for home use. I seriously doubt that lithium ion will come close for a long time, I mean, look at what replacement cellphone and laptop batteries cost.
And how many just car starter batteries do we see at whatever*mart or the auto parts stores that use lithium tech yet? Yep, about zilch, people don't want to spend a thousand bucks for a starter battery. There are still some advances in lead acid out there, the most common you see for cars is the spiral system from Optima http://www.optimabatteries.com/home.php , and the Firefly company http://www.fireflyenergy.com/ is allegedly going to start having more fleet sales "soon" with their lead "sponge" tech, and perhaps eventually normal retail.
The cheapest locally sourced way to get lead acid today that I have found is to look around at forklift stores and get an electric traction battery pack @ 12 to 48 VDC (probably other voltages as well, haven't looked for awhile now).
They are *heavy* and come in steel cases with lifting points and welded bus bars.
[citation needed] /morbid curiosityZ
Stories like this always have the flavor of a urban legend.
The automated roll bar deployment is a feature of some BMW covertibles only.
It uses springs. Not explosives.
Emergency services guidelines September 2009.
For a full description with handsome cutaway illustrations in color click to pages 22 and 23 of the PDF.
just gone out and bought a VW diesel TDI 2010 model. It's as quiet as a petrol engine when running, and only (very) slightly louder than a petrol engine while idling. The exhaust is very clean...
As for efficiency, the TDI is currently averaging 49 miles/gallon for the sportwagen, that's real honest-to-goodness driving on both freeway and city streets, and is ~7mpg higher than the official rating of the car.
I didn't quite believe it, so I did the calculation myself based on mileage and purchased fuel, and my figures came to 52 miles/gallon. If anything, the car is under-reporting the fuel economy. Not to mention that diesel is actually cheaper per gallon than unleaded.
Note that the jetta sportwagen is the identical size to the normal jetta (it's just a different top), and that the engine is only a 2.0 litre engine, smaller than the 2.5 litre base jetta engine.
In short, I don't think you could actually be any more wrong about diesel engines.
Simon.
Physicists get Hadrons!
Power companies are like record companies: they don't want anything to interfere with the way they distribute their wares, even if those changes might prove highly beneficial and profitable.
Really? All power companies?
http://www.aps.com/main/green/choice/solar/default.html?source=hme
All? No ... I suppose not. But then again not all record companies are dicks.
Just most of them.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Diesel prices fluctuate - but one thing remains constant - diesel packs more energy per gallon than gasoline, so that explains a small part of the fuel economy.
If we all drove diesel cars, gasoline would get very very cheap....there's not too much flexibility to the ratio of diesel/gasoline that comes from a given barrel of crude.
Latest energy mining trends in the US suggest that we should be looking for LNG (methane) burning cars in the not too distant future.
That one was tested by Mythbusters. IIRC, they concluded that it was almost impossible to launch the bumper accidentally.
And here's a link to mythbustersresults.com so you can check it yourself. Assuming they don't just make up the results on that site, of course.