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Details On Natal's Motion Capture Technology
An anonymous reader writes "Following yesterday's announcement of a late 2010 launch date for Natal, more details are emerging on exactly how Natal works. Alex Kipman, the project's lead developer, explains that Natal uses only 10-15% of the Xbox's resources to calibrate to a new player inside 160 milliseconds, track one or two players simultaneously, and use rudimentary knowledge of body anatomy to estimate where hands or other body parts are even when they can't be seen by Natal — for instance when they are held behind the back."
The aspect of how Natal communicates with X360 is most interesting to me, and surely many others.
It seems like it could be mighty fun peripheral for robotics projects... (and who knows, perhaps MS could even promote it, seeing that they have their robotics suite? Certainly small number of Natals not used for gaming wouldn't harm MS financially in any significant way; but they might like good publicity)
One that hath name thou can not otter
I think Natal is amazing -- and you won't need to replace the batteries in your controller all the time. It's nice to see Microsoft do something besides suck for a change.
I am just so unsure about it. It has alot of potential, but it could be a huge bomb. I think Latency in commands is going to be a big issue. But maybe its not as laggy as the initial demos seem.
If I could only somehow get into E3 without being someone really important or selling my body.
Accuracy aberrations plague a lot the new free motion input devices. Does anyone know to what degree of accuracy this works? Down to the inch? Centimeter?
... but I was skeptical of the devices ability for this accuracy. So, anyone know any concrete numbers yet?
My friend was lamenting how in Rainbow Six he could hug up to a corner or object and only expose a small part of his body when he poked out to shoot. The problem being that in Modern Warfare 2, this is not the case. You have to expose your whole body. He was hoping/speculating that with Natal, a first person shooter might be able to lock into a stationary mode (much like when one is shooting through a scope) and be able to move his head, shoulders, arms, etc as he pleases to peak (and/or) shoot around a corner when he's pinned down. He wants these games to get as close to real life as possible and I told him that it's a great idea and would increase the reality of pray and spray suppressive fire tactics
My work here is dung.
Here is a tech demo showing a Peter Molyneux demonstration of a game using Natal.
The ramifications of a system like this are pretty important I think. Honestly, this is what I had hoped the Wii would become... Not to start a Wii controller vs. Natal debate or anything, but I feel like games using full body motion capture would be much more interesting to me. At the end of the day, when I tried to play Wii tennis using proper motions and what not, I felt like an idiot after looking over and seeing someone else accomplish the same thing by flicking their wrist.
That said, I am interested to see how finely grained the sensitivity will be tuned to Natal recognizing people and motions. IE: if person A is playing a single player game and person B walks up and makes a hand motion, will Natal disregard that motion, or will it do whatever person B did? If so, it could seriously dent the efficacy of games being played by one person... Part of the benefit of having a physical controller is that someone else has to take it from you when they want to play, haha!
Natal sounds cool, and might just be what i'm looking for for a reason to buy a 360 to compliment my PS3. I'm still concerned about the complete lack of buttons, and am wondering if MS is going to be releasing a controller you can strap to your arm or hold with 1 hand for when you need a button to say change weapons. Also the lag issue remains to be seen. This is one possible advantage Sony's motion MIGHT have.
But in the end it's all about the games. Both techs have the potential I think to be fun, just need to see the actual implementation. And I wonder what Nintendo has in their R&D to combat this (other then that Vitality Sensor) All very interesting, although I don't see this gameplay replacing old fashioned "sitting down with a controller in your hand" gaming, just another form of entertainment.
All of this talk makes me pretty excited for what comes after this current gen...
Not to start a Wii controller vs. Natal debate or anything
Yeah, but in a street fight, the Wii owners at least have weapons (they don't call it a nunchuck for nothing). The Natal gang will have to rely on their fists.
Gee, I thought everyone here knew the accuracy specs of the unfinished and unreleased Natal. You mean *you* don't? [Nelson voice] HA HA!
In my mind what will affect user experience the most is its accuracy, and latency. It uses a infrared camera, so I'm wondering if anyone knows the camera's specs, especially regarding resolution and latency. Without knowing these, it is difficult to evaluate what it is good for. The article quotes a several cm. accuracy, and 10 ms recognition time, but it not clear what the sensor's limits are, and how much latency there is in the processing.
The article says that 31 limbs are tracked
So even many-limbed deities like Vishnu and various spider gods can play? That's so thoughtful of Microsoft to include the divine.
...is an interesting new way to communicate. I could think of MANY applications for this tech, especially once we get out of the "early" days and into the "refined" zone. Training for surgery, advanced sports virtualization, motion-capture for the amateur crowd, eye line tracking for race car/drag car drivers (for training and teaching purposes)...hell, even the lock on your front door (gang signs incoming!)
It is, of course, possible that Natal will be a flop...but this tech could have far ranging implications outside the gaming space. Time will tell, I suppose...
Living With a Nerd
I like the idea of your on screen char mimic your own movements. But there are hundreds of interactions that involve a specific command beyond run, jump, punch, etc. I must be missing something but how are those commands execured with Natal.
It is not enough to succeed, others must fail. - Gore Vidal
Given how every other video game system camera fails to work correctly in typical home lighting environments, this is the thing I'm most curious about.
For instance in my home, when we want to use the Eye Toy to play something like Kinetic, we have to drag out a shop-light and a couple of reflectors to stage the room and assist the contrast detection. Otherwise, the accuracy is garbage. If this thing can't work in a dark room then this also pretty much kills playing games in a room with the lights out (which is how I generally play racing games and FPS games at night).
My expectations are less than low and I'm just waiting to hear about how ever single player to use the system will need to have a Live account (with your avatar adjusted to R/L body mass).
Oh yes, and I RTFA about them using IR.
Sony's motion tracking technology also reportedly has sub-millimeter accuracy, which could be better for games (along with the fact that controllers could have real buttons which would give you finer action control while moving).
I'm still dubious if either system really ends up being better for games than the Wii though. It's fun to flail around for a while, but the Wii is nice in that for really long gaming sessions you don't have to exhaust yourself with full-body motion.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
31 limbs isn't out of the question if it's something like a multiplayer party game. That could be, for example, seven people, three of whom are men.
But I'm sure backroom bribing by a bunch of people who exempted themselves from the clusterfuck they slapped together would produce a much better result.
was that I felt like it encouraged "cheating"
You didn't have to do it right, you just had to what the controller thought was right.
Now waldos without physical connection would be great.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
I think Natal is amazing
I dunno.. I'm kinda scared of this: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/6/5/
If it would let you shove Milo off the bridge. (Guess that's a feature in the sequel to Bully.)
Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
Yes-- behind the back. Let's go with that.
UTF-8: There and Back Again
So you know it's active, built around this idea: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-of-flight_camera
I suspect it will be fine.
One that hath name thou can not otter
So now my xbox is taking pictures of kids!
Everyone panic, child pr0n! Xbox works for TSA!!
~Mekkah
What is someone was missing from an elbow down? Would the system see that as someone with it pointing directly at the device?
I kinda doubt that playing FPS games with Natal will be very efficient even if you were to do it in a well lit room. Natal is for detecting movements of your hands (and other big body parts), not your thumbs.
Apple has "Mac vs PC", Microsoft has "Laptop Hunters", Linux has recession
I like to spread FUD
Microsoft's president of entertainment and devices, announced at the CES show in Las Vegas, Arizona, this week that Natal would go on sale in November.
Key point is, Natal will not replace the current controller, not for most existing game genres like shooters. We'll still play tradititional games with traditional controllers. For those games, Natal might be used for supplementry "leaning" while holding a controller, face recognition, voice control etc, though I hope devs don't overdo this (ref: Lair).
Sony's wands are targeted very differently to Natal; they're much more like an accurate Wiimote, and are more suited to existing Wii-type games. While similar wand controllers could be used with Natal (it's a superset of Eyetoy), I don't think its strengths lie with the games we've already seen.
I'm more interested in what new genres devs come up with, game styles that come more naturally from what the controller allows, like how the Wii enabled, but to a greater extent. That, and the non-game aspects like facial login, object recognition, gesture navigation and voice control of system/game menus and functions (the Milo demo is a good example of where these abilities could go).
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
But Microsoft is nowhere near any of those fields, are they?
They are very much in this game:
Microsoft Visual Simulation Platform Licensed by Flight1 Tech
Microsoft Simulation Platform to Be Used in Warfighter Training
Nothing but Love for the Microsoft Simulation Platform From aviation and defense industry leaders
It needs only 160 milliseconds to latch on to the body shape of a new user stepping in front of it.
I think I dated Natal once.
"We are here on Earth to fart around. Don't let anybody tell you any different!" -- Kurt Vonnegut
Perhaps six people who aren't decapitated corpses. That sounds like more fun to me (YMMV).
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
"The full Natal hardware/sensor combo always looked like an expensive proposition in a market where Microsoft really needs to turn a profit," said tech website Digital Foundry. "The notion of offloading the processing to the 360 CPU in the name of lower costs and easier upgradability makes sense.”
If this is true and they start cutting corners is it even going to work as good as in the demos? Sounds like it'll be pricey so they're gonna have to get it right upon launch.
"10-15% of the Xbox's resources to calibrate..." WRONG! It uses 10-15% ALL THE TIME!
I haven't seen any hard hitting racing games or FPS for the wii, but it seems to be doing very well.
I bet this will do very well with that same group of casual gamers. Most of them probably play games in social groups with the lights on :)
Well, as to accuracy in the dark, this shouldn't be a problem, as the system mainly uses an infrared light/camera to track your motion/position. It doesn't need an external light source. I'm just curious how it's going to cope with background noise (tv remotes).
Have you seen the commercial for the Jenny McCarthy?
It is her own workout program that you can use with a pc or wii and it utilizes sensors and a camera to make sure you are doing the exercise properly... so the technology is old--someone else already did it... jenny, lol.
So yes it will work with pc but their main selling point is xbox
It uses an infrared projector for the sensor I believe. So it's creating its own light.
But I've only seen Natal as a fancy webcam that's gotten too much press. I expect the games that will be made for it will be marginally more advanced than what you can get with the PS2 EyeToy. It can be a success, but I think we should temper our expectations of it.
We were given "You're in the Movies" for the 360 for Xmas. It samples the background scene before calling you up as 'actors'. This gives a FAR better detection/tracking performance than Eye-Toy ever did. You no longer have to light your living room like a professional photography studio to play a simple goddam casual game.
Squirrel!
Natal and the Milo demo especially are complete BS, but that's not really the indicative bit. I mean, you have a camera that is gathering position information, even if you just assume it's capturing what's directly in front of a set that should be enough to go off of for "character on screen looks at player". Natal is giving you information about player position and distance after all, a little calibration isn't much to assume.
No, the real BS is the content. There is absolutely nothing in the demo to indicate that it's not entirely scripted. No suggestions from the audience, random actions, etc. The entire interaction looks staged and carefully played-out. The implication that Natal brings some magical AI to the 360 and lets you interact with it is blatant ... but this has nothing to do with what Natal is. And there is no magical AI, or we'd already be using it. Motion sensing doesn't add anything to this. What Natal does is cute, but as Yahtzee points out (skip to 1:33), motion sensing for the most part has sucked and will continue to suck as long as there is no real feedback.
Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
Why restrict to gaming? /.ers) and towards "natural user interface" using gestures, it would seem like the next obvious step from the need - still - to interact directly with a surface (whether The Surface, or other multi-touch screen interface).
With the desire to move us away from GUI (and CLI for
It shouldn't be too big a leap to imagine doing away with the kludgy remote control for any home/leisure digital content environment (home server, media centre, iTunes, etc)
having played with a prototype version (made before the company was aquired by microsoft) the camera uses light as well as Infra-red diodes to detect depth. In that case it should be possible to use it in the dark, though I'm not sure. Some fabric colours (camo) did confuse the camera though.