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How Infighting Hampers Innovation At Microsoft

Garabito writes "Dick Brass, former vice-president at Microsoft, published an op-ed in The New York Times, where he states that 'Microsoft has become a clumsy, uncompetitive innovator' and how 'it has lost share in Web browsers, high-end laptops and smartphones.' He attributes this situation to the lack of a true system for innovation at Microsoft. Some former employees argue that Microsoft has a system to thwart innovation. He tells how promising and innovative technologies like ClearType and the original TabletPC concept become crippled and sabotaged internally, by groups and divisions that felt threatened by them."

450 comments

  1. news flash by hguorbray · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Large institutions hamper creativity, innovation...

    -I'm just sayin'

    1. Re:news flash by drachenstern · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I would instead say "unintentional megacorp hindered by purpose-sprawl more than code-stink or feature-creep". Some large organizations inspire creativity. Granted not many.

      Also: first "frist psot" I've seen in a while that was actually OnTopic

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    2. Re:news flash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Large institutions hamper creativity, innovation...

      -I'm just sayin'

      I concur: Institutionalization hampers innovation. News at 11. Good jorb Slashdot Editorbs. The B is for Bargain!

    3. Re:news flash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Large institutions hamper creativity, innovation...

      We have more than enough evidence of this fact by looking at the history of our federal government :-)

    4. Re:news flash by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I worked at Telus (Canadian based Telco) for a while and I can safely say that they foster creativity and innovation. It's actually in their motto type creedo thing, which they bash you over the head with during training. Anyways, every 2 weeks during a regular team meeting they would constantly ask for criticism or feedback of the system, any improvements to be made or new ideas to be tested. Even my short summer as a 411 operator showed that they took suggestions and applied them regularily. For example, when looking through directories that deal with Taxi Agencies, sometimes a number will pop up that isn't the actual line for the taxi cabs, but actually the corporate office. Since you don't want to give them the wrong number listings will sometimes have notes attached. Seemingly ridiculous in hindsight, the notes are only ever surrounded in !!'s or **'s and have no other differentiation. One of my co-workers suggest we use a different font colour for notes. This suggestion was taken up and implemented within the month, much to everyone's delight.

    5. Re:news flash by jollyreaper · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Large institutions hamper creativity, innovation...

      The same thing was going on at Apple before the Return of Jobs. The road to OSX was bumpy.

      [quote]Meanwhile, Apple was facing commercial difficulties of its own. The decade-old Mac OS had reached the limits of its single-user, co-operative multitasking architecture, and its once-innovative user interface was looking increasingly dated. A massive development effort to replace it, known as Copland, was started in 1994, but was generally perceived outside of Apple to be a hopeless case due to political infighting. By 1996, Copland was nowhere near ready for release, and the project was eventually cancelled. Some elements of Copland were incorporated into Mac OS 8, released on July 26, 1997.
      After considering the purchase of BeOS -- a multimedia-enabled, multi-tasking OS designed for hardware similar to Apple's -- the company decided instead to acquire NeXT and use OPENSTEP as the basis for their new OS. Avie Tevanian took over OS development, and Steve Jobs was brought on as a consultant. At first, the plan was to develop a new operating system based almost entirely on an updated version of OPENSTEP, with an emulator -- known as the Blue Box -- for running "classic" Macintosh applications. The result was known by the code name Rhapsody, slated for release in late 1998.
      Apple expected that developers would port their software to the considerably more powerful OPENSTEP libraries once they learned of its power and flexibility. Instead, several major developers such as Adobe told Apple that this would never occur, and that they would rather leave the platform entirely. This "rejection" of Apple's plan was largely the result of a string of previous broken promises from Apple; after watching one "next OS" after another disappear and Apple's market share dwindle, developers were not interested in doing much work on the platform at all, let alone a re-write.

      Apple's financial losses continued and the board of directors lost confidence in CEO Gil Amelio. The board of directors asked him to resign. The board convinced Steve Jobs to lead the company on an interim basis. Jobs was, in essence, given carte blanche by Apple's board of directors to make changes in order to return the company to profitability. When Jobs announced at the World Wide Developer's Conference that what developers really wanted was a modern version of the Mac OS, and Apple was going to deliver it[citation needed], he was met with thunderous applause. [/quote]

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Mac_OS_X

      TFA's description of the infighting within Microsoft matches the details behind what I pasted above.

      --
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    6. Re:news flash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I agree 100%. Small companies are agile, large ones falter under their own weight of numbers.

      This same lumbering inefficient behemoth effect can be seen at Dell, Alcatel-Lucent, AT&T, Microsoft, GM, Ford and a thousand other large corporates. Guess all that MBA and Management School stuff just may have been wrong!

      And the prime examples - today's Western governments, the US and UK taking the lead.

      The challenge for civilization in the 21st century is not Global Warming, but constructively rethinking Government and Business.

    7. Re:news flash by mirix · · Score: 3, Funny

      Too bad they didn't apply this system to their horribly lame animal themed ads.

      --
      Sent from my PDP-11
    8. Re:news flash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There's a kind of poetic justice here, with Microsoft's tactics of stifling competitors (rather than out-performing them) being used internally.

    9. Re:news flash by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      Agreed. I think it is actually the one thing that ties all Telus employees together - is their unified unhappiness towards the ads. Some people hate them, others don't mind them, but no one I ever worked with enjoyed them.

    10. Re:news flash by Darkness404 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The difference is, Microsoft's monopoly leads to its downfall. Mac OS had a small marketshare, it was and is pretty easy to change some pretty radical things without much problems. Not the same thing with an OS with 90%+ of marketshare.

      --
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    11. Re:news flash by davester666 · · Score: 1

      I guess the only suggestion they don't take seriously is the one to stop having the highest fee's of any of Canada's wireless carriers...

      --
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    12. Re:news flash by citylivin · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Innovation at telus? LOL

      Telus is pretty much regarded as the worst telecom company in BC. What have they innovated exactly? Switching their network from GSM to 3G to play catchup with rogers and fido? Or maybe its their innovative use of customer service staff and technicians who are more concerned that you are connected to the wrong department, instead of actually dealing with your problem. Perhaps its their innovative use of limiting your ability to buy services or support because your specific rep has taken a 5 week holiday?

      They certainly innovate into auto enrolling you into $$$ telus branded cisco support contracts, which are EXACTLY the same contract provided direct by cisco, but you have to deal with brain dead man in the middle telus employees instead of the real technicians at cisco. Thanks for auto renewing my contract for the last 3 years for me! Whats that, you want me to pay an invoice for services that i did not even know i had, much less use? thats telus's new innovative billing!

      But what would all that innovation be if you were allowed to run your own webserver on a residential connection? Good thing that telus doesnt let you run fuck all on any port under 1024! I certainly also loved how they innovated new ways of traffic shaping on even their supposedly open business connections. Or their innovative use of fibre splicing techniques that makes novus, rogers and a fucklot of other companies basically sit on their asses till a telus technician can crack a manual and connect two strands together. If there is one thing that telus innovates over all else, its new ways to sell customers equipment, and then send technicians out who get paid 120$ an hour to 'learn as they go' on it. I had no idea how much they loved to educate their employees at the expense of their customers uptime and cold hard cash. Thats innovative learning right there!

      Lets see what else... they innovated a way to use 4 technicians to remove a single pay phone. Two to crimp and uncrimp the wires, and two more to TURN THE FUCKING BOLTS IN THE BASE OF THE PAYPHONE AND UNSEAT IT. (why dont you make that data connection modular, then we could just remove the payphone ourselves - to a dumbfounded look and then a stutter of; WE CANT DO THAT!!!)

      Oh i got another one i just remembered. They innovated a way to sign you up for two cel phone contracts AT THE SAME TIME! how useful is that! you could like, talk to yourself? Their HTC and LG handsets which are carrier locked, 5 firmware versions behind, are certainly inspiring me to innovate new ways of airborn phone destruction.

      So basically what I am trying to say I guess is this: Fuck Telus!!!!!!!

      --
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    13. Re:news flash by Dogtanian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There's a kind of poetic justice here, with Microsoft's tactics of stifling competitors (rather than out-performing them) being used internally.

      Indeed. I note that the article states

      Some people take joy in Microsoft's struggles, as the popular view in recent years paints the company as an unrepentant intentional monopolist. Good riddance if it fails. But those of us who worked there know it differently. At worst, you can say it's a highly repentant, largely accidental monopolist.

      My understanding was- yeah, Bill Gates may have been in the right place at the right time, and had the right connections- but so did a lot of people who run companies that are long gone and mostly forgotten.

      And the reason that Microsoft isn't being that Gates and MS *did* always have their future planned out rather than just small ambitions and being there at the dawn of a new industry for the fun of it. The article asserts otherwise, but doesn't back this up.

      I also don't like the vague air of revisionism (in the media generally) about MS now that they're no longer seen as the invulnerable monopolist of a few years back, with Google looking more "big bad" with every day, and Gates disposing of his billions.

      It's easy to forget, but around five or so years ago there used to be a *very* fanboyish and indulgent attitude towards Google on Slashdot. That's very much changed now, though some have said of MS that at least they were blatant and upfront about their desire to dominate the market, in comparison with Google.

      Still, that doesn't make them any better or more likeable, and as the parent says, it's quite fittingly ironic if they've suffered due to abusive internal competition.

      Article: why Microsoft, America's most famous and prosperous technology company, no longer brings us the future

      Well... I probably don't need to explain why this is stupid to your average Slashdot reader, but since when did MS *ever* bring us the future? They were *never* major on innovation; even if they managed to get a technology accepted into the mainstream- one that was normally innovated elsewhere- it was mainly due to their market dominance and everyone ending up using it anyway.

      MS-DOS? Not remotely innovative. The well-known story is that Gates snuck in under the radar to grab the contract for the IBM PC's operating system from Digital Research (developers of the then-dominant CP/M OS, and probable favourites for the job).

      Of course, Gates didn't actually have an OS, and then had to go out and buy one from a small software company. Which was basically just an unremarkable workalike/blatant-ripoff (delete according to opinion) of CP/M anyway. That became PC-DOS/MS-DOS 1, of course, but you'll note that the interest here is in how Gates grabbed the contract, not in that totally unremarkable and uninnovative (rip)off-the-shelf OS.

      Or what about pre-emptive multitasking... ten years after the Amiga did it. Brilliant innovation.

      Though the article does a good job of explaining why MS seems to have (or have had) a lot of talented people working for them with relatively little to show for it.

      But the fundamental issue is that MS never got where they were through being innovators. They got where they were through aggressive business practices; the software was never that hot.

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    14. Re:news flash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This sounds like an article from 1994 when OS2/Warp was released. With a few words changed and added to make it look recent.

    15. Re:news flash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Font colours held up as an example of innovation. I guess future generations truly are fucked (or at least Telus which makes me happy)

    16. Re:news flash by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      I worked at Telus (Canadian based Telco) for a while and I can safely say that they foster creativity and innovation. It's actually in their motto type creedo thing, which they bash you over the head with during training.

      Small thing, but a company motto to me isn't worth the paper or internet it's printed on. Slasdot's motto is "News for Nerds, Stuff that matters," and I see one of the stories running is "Restaurant Promotes Sex In Its Bathrooms." thing starts off with "As a company, and as individuals, we value integrity, honesty, openness, personal excellence, constructive self-criticism, continual self-improvement, and mutual respect..."

    17. Re:news flash by SerpentMage · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Bullcrap!

      Let's look at companies like Mercedes, Nintendo, Research in Motion, Volkswagen, Walmart, and 3M. These companies are in fact very large and very innovative. The list goes on... Microsoft is a dysfunctional company, point blank! What is killing Microsoft is what the guy in the article said it was.

      --

      "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
      "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
    18. Re:news flash by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      Yeah, because AT&T was so much more agile in 1969!

    19. Re:news flash by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That was my thought, too.

      Before Jobs returned, Apple was a collection of little fiefdoms who were working on their own "next big thing": QuickDraw GX, QuickDraw3D, Publish/Subscribe, OpenDoc, Open Collaborative Environment, OpenTransport, etc. Each of these little fiefdoms were shouting at the wind trying to get interest within Apple and with developers outside. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't.

      Some groups were working on similar things, some groups didn't like the idea, or the people who were involved with the idea. Mac OS started becoming a collection of neat technologies with no real rhyme or reason behind any of it.

      The most notable thing Jobs did when he came back was chop up hardware. No more Performa 6600s competing with PowerMac 7500s, etc. But he also chopped a bunch of software projects (pretty much everything on the list above went away or was barely supported for compatibility purposes only) in going forward with Carbon.

      Microsoft is in a similar boat. You seem to have lots of engineers running around and some of them are doing interesting stuff. The problem is getting others in the company to go along. There isn't a "Steve Jobs" at the highest level to say, "We're all going to go along with this and, if you don't agree, there's a door over there with your name on it."

    20. Re:news flash by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Mac OS had a small marketshare, it was and is pretty easy to change some pretty radical things without much problems. Not the same thing with an OS with 90%+ of marketshare.

      And yet Microsoft did pull off exactly such a transition once, and did so at a time when it was even more of a monopoly than it is now. Windows NT (which became 2000, XP, etc.) was just as different "under the hood" from Windows 3.x/95/98/ME as Mac OS X was from the classic Mac OS, but Microsoft managed to move PC users from one to the other with minimal disruption -- less disruption, in fact, than Mac users experienced going from Classic to X. (And I'm not taking sides here: I'm a Mac user by preference, but at the time I was working as a developer on Windows.) I don't really think they'll be able to do it again, you understand, but it's not because of their market share that this is so. It's a more fundamental problem in their corporate culture, one that's really only developed in the last decade or so.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    21. Re:news flash by gaderael · · Score: 1

      Well, it must be just the Telus employees, because my fiance and I love those commercials. Especially the fiance. They're really cute.

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    22. Re:news flash by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      Color coding? I hate it. Give me the exclamation marks - I never miss them. Or, almost never, anyway. I suppose they used red fonts? Completely invisible. Websites put up big red banners and warnings all the time, to inform me of an error. That stupid banner is the LAST THING I see on the page. Login fails? The red print that tells me so is all but invisible.

      The only color coding that has ever actually worked for me, is when MS operating systems use BLUE for compressed folders. I see the blue just fine. Of course, it's not really very important that I be reminded that I've compressed this folder or that, or that I compress the entire drive inside a virtual machine to save space.

      --
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    23. Re:news flash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "We're all going to go along with this and, if you don't agree, there's a door over there with your name on it."

      And the door's tag says: "R&D"

      Jobs is a dictator, but it's the valley for pete's sake, and a lot of super brain guys still manage to stay at Apple though they may disagree with the group think.

      MS just is at a crossroads. It's been there before. It's just media/blogs/leaks/tweets have gotten so hyper sensitive to the environment we are [over]discussing the situation.

    24. Re:news flash by mrcleaver · · Score: 1

      I'm going to have to second this and say that I know a lot of people who love those commercials. And while I'm indifferent towards them I appreciate the simplicity of an ad that draws you in with animals then hits you with some text and maybe a picture about the product.

    25. Re:news flash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      except the colour blind employees?

      that said, guys are more likely to be colour blid so it cold be seen as affirmitive action to get more chicks in IT(FTW)

    26. Re:news flash by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 4, Informative

      MS-DOS? Not remotely innovative. The well-known story is that Gates snuck in under the radar to grab the contract for the IBM PC's operating system from Digital Research (developers of the then-dominant CP/M OS, and probable favourites for the job). Of course, Gates didn't actually have an OS, and then had to go out and buy one from a small software company [wikipedia.org]. Which was basically just an unremarkable workalike/blatant-ripoff (delete according to opinion) of CP/M anyway. That became PC-DOS/MS-DOS 1, of course, but you'll note that the interest here is in how Gates grabbed the contract, not in that totally unremarkable and uninnovative (rip)off-the-shelf OS.

      This is not entirely correct, although it is close. Bill Gates has successfully sold IBM's PC division on a couple of compilers for their new PC, but IBM didn't yet have an OS. They went to the CEO of Digital Research, but he was put off by IBM's boilerplate nondisclosure agreement (it may have been more than just an NDA, I don't remember exactly). There are a couple of different stories about how he responded to IBM's overture, but the end result was that the IBM guys felt like he didn't want to do business with them.
      Now IBM had decided to use a new chip from Intel at the core of their PC. There was no OS yet written to work on it. At the same time, a small company in Seattle was developing machines that used this new Intel chip. They needed an OS for it. One of their employees wrote a quick and dirty OS (QDOS) that would do for them to get their machine out the door and working. The plan being that if someone developed a better OS for the chip later they would buy it and start using it. I forget how Bill Gates learned of this OS, but he promptly went to this company and bought the rights to distribute it. QDOS was not a rip off of CP/M, but it had enough similarities that when Digital Research made DR-DOS, Microsoft couldn't stop them. I'm sure there are others on here are more familiar with the details.


      However, your main point is correct MS has never been an innovator (except maybe a bit with their compilers in the early days).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    27. Re:news flash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A restaurant the promotes sex in its bathrooms does sound kinda interesting, I have to admit. But then, you can always count on people disagreeing with you no matter what you say on slashdot! Right on though about company mottos and mission statements nearly universally being either useless, ignored, or both.

    28. Re:news flash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you really expect marketing to make sense?

    29. Re:news flash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The geeky Gates had the ambition and smarts, but it was Paul Allen who secured their future. Never underestimate the utility of partnering with a lawyer.

    30. Re:news flash by TropicalCoder · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's easy to forget, but around five or so years ago there used to be a *very* fanboyish and indulgent attitude towards Google on Slashdot. That's very much changed now...

      Google is a truly innovative company that have done great things for open source and standards, not to mention how useful they are becoming at keeping Microsoft in check. Their Android operating system and the upcoming Chrome OS will transform the landscape. Between Google and Apple, Microsoft is backed into a corner. Now with Symbian gone open source as the last straw, we may see Microsoft withdraw from the mobile market by year's end. I have not seen any change in attitudes towards Google. What I have seen is a concerted campaign by Microsoft shills on Slashdot and elsewhere to demonize Google. Microsoft has realized that it simply cannot keep up with Google in terms of innovation, since they are not innovators. Their search bling is only growing via buying clients. Their browser is dying. The only way Microsoft knows how to compete is via under-handed attacks on the competition.

    31. Re:news flash by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 3, Informative

      That wasn't due to innovation. That was plain old software piracy: they hired David Cutler from DEC, one of the authors of VMS, and stole its internals like a pirate robbing Spanish galleons. The resulting lawsuits are one of the reasons NT ran so well on Alphas: its internals had frankly been writen for Alphas originally by Cutler and the personal he hired away from DEC. Sadly, DEC thought they could take a lump settlement and continue to out-innovate Microsoft with their Alpha hardware and its upgrades, but Intel stole core technologies of the Alpha to make the Pentium.

      The result was the fundamentally crippled, by comparison, NT on Pentium. But it was so much cheaper and accessible for consumer grade products, and worked so much better with Microsoft's core office suite, that the results left DEC's "continuing innovation" on the scrap heap.

    32. Re:news flash by drsmithy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That wasn't due to innovation. That was plain old software piracy: they hired David Cutler from DEC, one of the authors of VMS, and stole its internals like a pirate robbing Spanish galleons.

      So hiring someone who has ever worked anywhere else on any software is "software piracy" ? Guess that makes any remotely modern piece of software "pirated".

      The resulting lawsuits are one of the reasons NT ran so well on Alphas: its internals had frankly been writen for Alphas originally by Cutler and the personal he hired away from DEC.

      Except NT didn't run especially well on Alphas. Heck, they never even released a 64-bit version.

      The result was the fundamentally crippled, by comparison, NT on Pentium.

      "Crippled" how ?

    33. Re:news flash by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 1

      Ah, fascinating bit of history. Thanks.

      And it does seem more in keeping with Microsoft's history as a whole. Now I can go back to my usual smug Mac user's "Microsoft never did anything worthwhile" stance with a clear conscience. ;)

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    34. Re:news flash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is the coloured font read by the fucking awful robot 411 service they now use?

    35. Re:news flash by bennomatic · · Score: 1

      If you're going to mis-spell it, mis-spell it right: fr1st ps0t!

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    36. Re:news flash by bennomatic · · Score: 1

      If I remember my lore correctly, when Gates first set up a meeting with IBM over QDOS, he actually invited the guy who was responsible for it (Gary Kildall?), which person didn't show up. Surfing or something. Wasn't interested in meeting the suits.

      So Gates made a deal: bought it outright for $25,000 cash which I'm sure seemed like quite a bit to Kildall at the time, but was certainly a song in comparison to what IBM ended up paying for it, not to mention other vendors paying for later versions.

      I'm not so sure I buy the "reluctant monopolist". I'm sure that Gates always had the best of intentions, but like many genii, I'm sure he doesn't suffer idiots well, and doesn't mind riding roughshod over them. And compared to him, the great majority of humanity are idiots.

      --
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    37. Re:news flash by srealm · · Score: 2, Informative

      Having met some of the Adobe guys involved in the above rift between Adobe and Apple, I heard the Adobe side of the story.

      Basically Apple came to adobe and say they were only going to support Objective C, and Adobe had to re-write all their products in Objective C to support the Apple platform, and Adobe more or less said "I don't think so."

      There was more to it than that, and the rift went to the highest levels (big egos involved), an interesting tale. But basically Adobe was one company big enough with popular enough products to teach Apple a bit about eating humble pie. This of course was before OSX, the iPod, and basically the recent rise of Apple again, who is once again on a firmer footing to dictate any terms they like (thus ITMS).

    38. Re:news flash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There goes that stupid "just sayin'" (sic) shit, again.

      Where did that crap come from?

    39. Re:news flash by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      And yet Microsoft did pull off exactly such a transition once, and did so at a time when it was even more of a monopoly than it is now. Windows NT (which became 2000, XP, etc.) was just as different "under the hood" from Windows 3.x/95/98/ME as Mac OS X was from the classic Mac OS

      My understanding was that Windows 95 introduced the Win32 API to the consumer versions of Windows, which may or may not have already existed in NT. It was definitely in the next version of NT, NT 4.0.

      In other words, the two had the same basic API despite the platform differences... and applications could be written to run on both as long as NT's security model got taken into account.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    40. Re:news flash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm totally not a spelling Nazi but you spelled color wrong.

    41. Re:news flash by VGPowerlord · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Shills don't need to demonize Google. Their own CEO has done a fairly good job of it on his own.

      It's not just that, though... Google likes to tout how they're big in to open source. This is true... but only the parts that have the potential increase Google's market-share. How Google's mail and search systems work, for example, are tightly guarded secrets. Even Google's web server is not open source, despite the rumors that it's Apache-based.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    42. Re:news flash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      There isn't a "Steve Jobs" at the highest level to say, "We're all going to go along with this and, if you don't agree, there's a door over there with your name on it."

      Man, how many people called "Exit" do work at Microsoft anyway?

    43. Re:news flash by mcrbids · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, it's true - large organizations thwart innovation. And when you think about it socially, it's a good survival mechanism.

      Young guy does something successful. It works, and he ends up leader of the clan. Because it worked, it's a good idea to keep doing it. So a bit of arrogance on the part of the successful person is often warranted, even if it's not popular. Unfortunately, times have changed enough that change itself is much more highly prized than 30,000 years ago, but the evolved mechanisms are still present. It takes a very, very long time to evolve anything significant, but it takes just years to change behavior thanks to a new idea!

      Sad that Microsoft has lost its innovative edge. So far, Google's kept it, and HP lost it long ago.

      --
      I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    44. Re:news flash by iluvcapra · · Score: 2, Informative

      (Gary Kildall?), which person didn't show up. Surfing or something. Wasn't interested in meeting the suits.

      Gary Kildall, the writer of the CP/M operating system, wanted to go flying that morning. QDOS was written at a shop called "Seattle Computer Products" by a worthy named Tim Patterson.

      Notice how every one of these stories involves someone at the very zenith of their career blowing-off a meeting with the punk Bill Gates. This general lackadaisy strongly hints at just how insignificant people though PCs were going to be at the time, and how BillG primarily deserves credit for being the only person in the room at the time who didn't think the Personal Computer, as a concept, wasn't a total joke. Even the people who wrote CP/M and QDOS thought PCs were a joke, and that their creations were just weird redheaded stepchildren of their minicomputer OSs. Only Gates and Jobs thought personal computing would go anywhere, and while Jobs was and remains in love with the idea of PC as a Personal Information Appliance, and BillG was the only one that thought you could make a huge business out of selling the software, completely ignoring hardware manufacturing.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    45. Re:news flash by yuhong · · Score: 1

      One Gestalt selector conflict from that age involved the 'sdvr' selector. The team that design the Control Strip (originally called the Status Bar) used it for getting the version, but the PowerTalk team was already using it for something else. The funny thing is that by the time the PowerBook 500 series was released that shipped with the first version of the Control Strip that had this problem, System 7 Pro was already released a year earlier with PowerTalk. Yet it wasn't until System 7.5 that shipped with both PowerTalk and Control Strip inside that it was fixed by changing the Control Strip one to 'csvr'.

    46. Re:news flash by Rexdude · · Score: 2, Insightful

      One response to this would be that Microsoft needs s/Ballmer/Jobs/g. But if you think about it, they actually need a Lou Gerstner.
      IBM was more or less the same way as they are now during the PC/desktop times of the early 90s- stifled by bureaucracy and personal fiefdoms, increasingly irrelevant in the market, to the extent that there was talk of it being broken up. Gerstner transitioned it to focus on software and services as well, changed the corporate culture, and wrote a great book on pirouetting pachyderms about it afterwards.

      They (Microsoft) do have talent, as mentioned in the article, but no one will stick on much longer if these issues are not sorted out.

      --
      "..One hosts to look them up, one DNS to find them, and in the darkness BIND them."
    47. Re:news flash by hairyfeet · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why not? I would say they already have with Vista/7 due to the amount of changes they have done under the hood. While there was some growing pains with Vista (lets face it, it sucked) they seem to have "gotten it right" with Windows 7, from better security to better integration between apps like WMP 12 and Devices and printers and the Internet.

      And I wouldn't be surprised if XP Mode isn't a "trial run" to work out the bugs so that the required backwards compatibility can be delivered via VM integrated into the OS so they can change the core without breaking existing apps. Now that we are finally moving away from IA32 to X64 I personally can't wait to see what they cook up next. Now if we could just fire that damned Ballmer monkey who keeps shooting the company in the foot (raising prices on Windows 7 HP and the family packs was monumentally stupid, when they need to get folks off of XP. I personally know a dozen people that were ready to buy family packs after Xmas that now will be staying on XP, and I'm betting that is typical) we might actually see things progress over at MSFT.

      Just as I'm hoping that cheap ARM netbooks will finally become more than vaporware and give Linux developers a real kick in the pants to start innovating more. With the SFF and lower RAM they will need to really optimize their code to give the most "bang for the buck" without slowing the RAM starved netbooks down. Any way you slice it the next couple of years should be really interesting.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    48. Re:news flash by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

      3M and Nintendo are innovative, no argument. The others? I can't really name anything they've really done recently that was drastically different from what they've always done. Cars are still cars, blackberries are still blackberries, walmart is still a mart of wall. I know they make new products, but so does microsoft. What's the really difference, in your opinion?

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    49. Re:news flash by 1s44c · · Score: 1

      Some large organizations inspire creativity. Granted not many.

      Who? There is Google but who else actually inspires creativity rather than crushing it?

      From what I've seen small companies are the way to go, big companies get infected with 'career manager' types.

    50. Re:news flash by jspraul · · Score: 1

      So basically what I am trying to say I guess is this: Fuck Telus!!!!!!!

      I think I picked that up by paragraph #2... :)

    51. Re:news flash by dave1791 · · Score: 1

      Win32 was there from the start on NT; in 3.1 (The first version of NT was called 3.1 because that was also the version number of the then current Windows)

    52. Re:news flash by zebs · · Score: 4, Funny

      "there's a door over there with your name on it."

      Ooooo! A private office!

    53. Re:news flash by DeBaas · · Score: 1

      ok ok, but you gotta admit, going from !!'s and **'s to colored fonts was pretty innovative

      --
      ---
    54. Re:news flash by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2, Informative

      If I remember my lore correctly, when Gates first set up a meeting with IBM over QDOS, he actually invited the guy who was responsible for it (Gary Kildall?), which person didn't show up. Surfing or something. Wasn't interested in meeting the suits.

      That was actually the meeting between Gary Kildall (owner of Digital Research and writer of CP/M) and IBM. Bill Gates had nothing to do with that meeting. One version of the story says he went flying instead of showing up at the meeting arranged by IBM. Gary Kildall has said that that isn't true. He says he objected to the draconian nondisclosure agreement IBM wanted him to sign.
      The company that wrote QDOS didn't know IBM was looking for an OS for their new PC. I'm not even sure that anybody even knew they were building one yet when Microsoft bought QDOS from the company that first wrote it (although I'm pretty sure the rumors had started at the least).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    55. Re:news flash by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      (Gary Kildall?), which person didn't show up. Surfing or something. Wasn't interested in meeting the suits.

      Gary Kildall, the writer of the CP/M operating system, wanted to go flying that morning. QDOS was written at a shop called "Seattle Computer Products" by a worthy named Tim Patterson.

      Notice how every one of these stories involves someone at the very zenith of their career blowing-off a meeting with the punk Bill Gates. This general lackadaisy strongly hints at just how insignificant people though PCs were going to be at the time, and how BillG primarily deserves credit for being the only person in the room at the time who didn't think the Personal Computer, as a concept, wasn't a total joke. Even the people who wrote CP/M and QDOS thought PCs were a joke, and that their creations were just weird redheaded stepchildren of their minicomputer OSs. Only Gates and Jobs thought personal computing would go anywhere, and while Jobs was and remains in love with the idea of PC as a Personal Information Appliance, and BillG was the only one that thought you could make a huge business out of selling the software, completely ignoring hardware manufacturing.

      Bill Gates had nothing to do with the meeting between IBM and Gary Kildall. IBM knew who Gary Kildall was and arranged the meeting completely independent of Bill Gates (or anybody else at MS). Gary Kildall was scared off by IBM's nondisclosure agreement and reputation.
      Seattle Computer Products (and Tim Patterson)knew nothing about IBM's need for an OS for their new PC. It was not a matter of thinking that PCs were a joke.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    56. Re:news flash by sourcerror · · Score: 1

      "But if you really need that kind of privacy, the reality is that search engines, including Google, do retain this information for some time. And [...] we're all subject, in the US, to the Patriot Act, and it is possible that that information could be made available to the authorities."

      Wow, if you put stuff about yourself on the web, others might find it? Who would have thought that?
      Do you have an idea what incognito mode in Chrome is good for? Maybe it doesn't store cookies?
      ISPs will happy to cooperate authorities if you are doing something nasty; so what's the big deal about that?

    57. Re:news flash by amorsen · · Score: 1

      So far, Google's kept it, and HP lost it long ago.

      If you mean the company which should be called Compaq, it has never been particularly innovative. The real HP is now called Agilent. I don't use their products, but other people say they are innovative still.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    58. Re:news flash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would agree to the innovation part. Creativity, well it depends on how you look at it. Some are pretty good at finding new ways to do something old again and call it "New". =) No large company really innovates they either do small incremental updates to existing tech, or buyout a smaller company willing to take a risk by innovating. The larger the company the smaller the risk and ultimately the increment is. Can't blame them after all it is a patent minefield out there where even the obvious can be now patented, or even discovering life. I gave up on creating a company years ago, because of this. Sorry but the US economy is in the pooper for a reason. FYI it has already crashed. It is just being propped up by foreign investors that were given money by shifting responsibility and to save money. Now that I would consider ironic. lol

    59. Re:news flash by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      Some universities can, there are some huge lab-based companies out of computing... There are a few cases, but it is not the norm.

    60. Re:news flash by markov_chain · · Score: 1

      So a whole month to change a font? That kind of supports the submitter's point of view ;)

      --
      Tsunami -- You can't bring a good wave down!
    61. Re:news flash by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      Yes, but this came from Eric Schmidt, the guy who had anything mentioning his own phone number expunged from Google's indexes.

      But wait, doesn't that mean he should have not had it published in the first place? The phone company surprisingly offers a service for that!

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    62. Re:news flash by jimicus · · Score: 1

      From what I've seen small companies are the way to go, big companies get infected with 'career manager' types.

      This x100. A certain company that shall remain nameless started relatively small but had a branch office which kept on getting infested with "career manager" types.

      I swear they breed like cockroaches. Took on one or two people who it turned out were career manager types whose sole purpose, it seemed, was empire building. Before long, they'd grown to 80 staff. (Well and good, but at the time there wasn't a saleable product, and a large number of those people had nothing to do with putting together a saleable product). They sent someone senior over there, sacked about 30 people straight away... and 6-12months later back up to 80 staff and still no saleable product. Sack another group of 30.... 18 months later, 120 staff, a warehouse (for a product which wasn't in mass production), a shipping team (for a product which, again, wasn't in mass production). And still no saleable product.

      You ever heard of demolishing a building because it's just become so infested with vermin that no pest controller can deal with it? First time in history I've heard of an office getting shut down because of an infestation of managers.

    63. Re:news flash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And things such as "we'll kill your small Flash toys".

    64. Re:news flash by quanticle · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure I agree with you. To me, its all about the corporate culture, rather than the size of the company. There are large firms that manage to innovate - look at Apple, or Nintendo. And, more tellingly, there are many small and medium sized firms that become bound up with infighting. The difference is that these firms are not prominent enough to make the news when they falter and fail.

      --
      We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
    65. Re:news flash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >There's a kind of poetic justice here, with Microsoft's tactics of stifling competitors (rather than out-performing them) being used internally.

      Awesome comment, reflects my experience there.

      I took a position in their Server group, and found the environment unbearably painful. The environment is one of high stress 'dog-eat-dog' world doing nothing but 'busy body' work - the end user was so far away, while the teams were scheming to outsmart the other and grow bigger. Senior SDEs were sucking up to Architects, who in turn were doing their own ladder climbing antics with the uber Architects on top of them ... complete mess. I left after a few months.

    66. Re:news flash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not the case, really, because 99% of their products (by count) are NOT Windows.

      The problem is endemic and impacts the smaller products vastly more than the big ones.

      (posted anonymously because I'm one one of them...)

    67. Re:news flash by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      Gary Kildall was scared off by IBM's nondisclosure agreement and reputation.

      That makes no sense. Why would someone like Gary Kildall be scared off of a deal that a nobody like Bill Gates took in a heartbeat? It's been made pretty clear in the historical record at this point that Bill actually understood the complete dimension and scope of the deal they were getting, the money involved and how IBM was clueless and basically giving them the farm for free.

      Why didn't Gary want the farm? He didn't realize it was there. It doesn't happen very often but this is one of those situations where a clever person had a "vision," a way of seeing the world that's completely novel, and had BillG and Paul Allen had not seen the possibilities, they'd probably be millionaires after selling their middlingly-successful compiler/DOS company to Borland in the mid-80s.

      Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Bill Gates "fan" or anything; I've never in my life owned a Windows PC, or even really used one for work, but the man deserves his due. The wrongheaded idea, held by a lot of misinformed people, that Gates was some kind of trust-fund baby who was handed the keys to the kingdom and merely didn't have to fuck up, is a fallacy.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    68. Re:news flash by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

      This is not entirely correct, although it is close.

      With the debatable exception of whether QDOS was a ripoff of CP/M- and I implied that there were differing views on this- nothing I said was wrong (nor contradicted by what you said). It was intentionally simplified without being misleading, as the point I was making related to the innovation (or lack of) in MS-DOS, and it was meant to serve that rather than the other way round. :-)

      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    69. Re:news flash by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

      The wrongheaded idea, held by a lot of misinformed people, that Gates was some kind of trust-fund baby who was handed the keys to the kingdom and merely didn't have to fuck up, is a fallacy.

      I don't know if you had my original comment in mind, but it certainly wasn't meant to imply that. Quite the opposite- it acknowledged that being in the right place at the right time was not the sole reason for Gates' success.

      Gates was (and is) undoubtedly a very smart guy who had a clear vision and insight and is known for exploiting opportunities when they come to him.

      Still, the most common fallacy about Gates- held by the man on the street- is the opposite, that Gates was some super-smart everyman who did it all by himself. And while he deserves credit, and while his parents weren't in the Donald Trump and Warren Buffett league of richness, he certainly benefited from having parents who were very well-off by ordinary standards and who had the right connections. It's open to question if he was just a typical lower middle-class kid whether he'd have had such success.

      Or put another way, Gates' upbringing may not have been sufficient for his success, but it may well have been necessary.

      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    70. Re:news flash by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      To be honest I never read your comment :)

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    71. Re:news flash by tylikcat · · Score: 1

      This (I mean the original allegation) would ring a lot more true if the architecture of WinNT* was more akin to that of VMS. Yes, there is some structural similarity - but not particularly a lot. (And I have to agree about NT on Alphas. Gah.) And then, having put together a pretty decent, consistent architecture with a good security model, the rest of Microsoft largely ignored much of what NT set out to do and created the security swiss cheese we all know and love today... * Remember, NT does not stand for New Technology.

    72. Re:news flash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, screw you man! Those animal ads are awesome. I'd rather see a cute squirrel monkey on a giant billboard than some fat, middle-aged dude.

    73. Re:news flash by Capt.DrumkenBum · · Score: 1

      My favourite Telus innovation is twice a year when they don't send your bill, then charge you late fees on the next bill for not paying a bill you never received.

      Happily they are now out of my life forever.

      --
      If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
    74. Re:news flash by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      You're right Wal-Mart is always pushing the envelope by seeing how much fat they can stuff into those uniforms.

    75. Re:news flash by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      This (I mean the original allegation) would ring a lot more true if the architecture of WinNT* was more akin to that of VMS. Yes, there is some structural similarity - but not particularly a lot

      Actually, it *is* very similar architecturally. Numerous articles have been written showing this and Cutler has said it himself multiple times. The similarity was the whole basis of DEC's lawsuit.

      And then, having put together a pretty decent, consistent architecture with a good security model, the rest of Microsoft largely ignored much of what NT set out to do and created the security swiss cheese we all know and love today... * Remember, NT does not stand for New Technology.

      The vast, vast majority of "security issues" with NT have had little to do with the OS itself.

    76. Re:news flash by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      NT stole _massively_ from VMS memory management. I'm taking testimony from DEC developers who had access to NT development toolkits as evidence, and the articles from the lawsuits.

      NT on Pentium was crippled relative to VMS on Alphas, which was a powerful, robust, and relatively secure operating system. The genuine 64-bit architecture was massively useful for such work.

    77. Re:news flash by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      That makes no sense. Why would someone like Gary Kildall be scared off of a deal that a nobody like Bill Gates took in a heartbeat?

      Because Bill Gates wasn't a "nobody". His father was (is?) one of the leading lawyers in Seattle. His mother served on the Board of the American Red Cross with the then CEO of IBM. Calling Bill Gates a "nobody" at the time he bought QDOS, is like calling George W. Bush a nobody when he served in the Air National Guard. Another important point is that because he father was a lawyer, he probably had some idea that the intimidating IBM NDA was just a standard big corporate document. And finally, Bill Gates had nothing to lose by signing the deal with IBM. Gary Kildall had a successful company to lose at the time.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    78. Re:news flash by yuhong · · Score: 1

      Yea, Google is not perfect, but these shills are IMO even worse. Google is still going to be better than MS regardless of what the shills say.

    79. Re:news flash by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      NT stole _massively_ from VMS memory management. I'm taking testimony from DEC developers who had access to NT development toolkits as evidence, and the articles from the lawsuits.

      Define "steal". Copyright infringement ? Patent infringement ? Industrial espionage ?

      NT on Pentium was crippled relative to VMS on Alphas, which was a powerful, robust, and relatively secure operating system.

      How was it crippled ? How is the comparison to VMS relevant to your original (and further, below) comment comparing NT on Alpha vs Pentium ?

      The genuine 64-bit architecture was massively useful for such work.

      NT on Alpha was only 32 bit until NT 5.0 (which never made it out of RC on Alpha). How did the 64 bit architecture make a difference ?

    80. Re:news flash by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      I would instead say "unintentional megacorp hindered by purpose-sprawl more than code-stink or feature-creep". Some large organizations inspire creativity. Granted not many.

      Can you name one - just one - top-down organization which inspires creativity and innovation? I'd even give you points for naming one which does not stifle said characteristics.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    81. Re:news flash by yuhong · · Score: 1

      Yea, it is a fundamental problem of top-down command and control.

  2. When has Microsoft brought us the future? by argent · · Score: 4, Interesting

    But the much more important question is why Microsoft, America's most famous and prosperous technology company, no longer brings us the future, whether it's tablet computers like the iPad, e-books like Amazon's Kindle, smartphones like the BlackBerry and iPhone, search engines like Google, digital music systems like iPod and iTunes or popular Web services like Facebook and Twitter.

    "no longer"?

    When was Microsoft any different?

    OK, they had a good compiler and toolchain in the '70s, but actual innovation has never been their forte. Microsoft Research has been doing interesting stuff in the past decade or so, but that's more a sign of *increasing* innovation at Microsoft, if anything.

    1. Re:When has Microsoft brought us the future? by sopssa · · Score: 1

      Well one that I could think of from recently is Microsoft Courier. It seems quite innovative and the tablet I would like to have (iPad.. just meh). I really hope it becomes reality and the things TFA mentions don't happen to it. Then I could actually say MS innovates.

    2. Re:When has Microsoft brought us the future? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Ah, but the question isn't "innovates" but "brings us the future". And it's pretty hard to argue against the fact that Microsoft was the one who shipped a GUI to the most people, and fostered (for better or worse) a relatively open hardware market that allowed the lowest bidder to deliver our PCs.

    3. Re:When has Microsoft brought us the future? by jcr · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      OK, they had a good compiler and toolchain in the '70s

      I don't recall their compilers and tools ever being more than mediocre.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    4. Re:When has Microsoft brought us the future? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I don't recall their compilers and tools ever being more than mediocre.

      Are you talking about C & C++, or dev tools in general. If the latter, would you also consider C# (language design), VC# (the actual compiler), and CLR mediocre?

      Also, what would be your base for comparison? For C/C++ - GCC? Intel compiler? If we're talking about .NET - Java? ObjC/Cocoa?

    5. Re:When has Microsoft brought us the future? by oldhack · · Score: 1

      70s, hello?!

      Let's see. They had BASIC interpreter, BASIC compiler, macro assembler (for 8080/z80), probably some other stuff.

      Actually, their CP/M card for Apple was pretty neat.

      --
      Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
    6. Re:When has Microsoft brought us the future? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you talking about C & C++, or dev tools in general. If the latter, would you also consider C# (language design), VC# (the actual compiler), and CLR mediocre?

      Since we're talking about the '70s, we'd be talking MBASIC, BASCOM (MBASIC compiler), F80 (FORTRAN IV for Z80), M80 (Z80 assembly), and COBOL (for Z80).

      I loved M80 and MBASIC and a had a few mostly pleasant runins with F80. COBOL and I never got along.

    7. Re:When has Microsoft brought us the future? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      Well, let's see, considering the fact that practically every crash or problem I have in any one of my Windows virtual machines (you didn't think I'd run that trash on the bare metal did you?) can be traced to one .net program or another, I'd say calling C# (language design), VC# (the actual compiler), or CLR even mediocre is a monumental compliment.

      Dotnet is pure shit. I wouldn't program a smiley icon pack in it. Sheesh, get off of your fucking high horse.

    8. Re:When has Microsoft brought us the future? by argent · · Score: 5, Informative

      And it's pretty hard to argue against the fact that Microsoft was the one who shipped a GUI to the most people

      You misspelled "Apple, Atari, and Commodore" there. Windows wasn't really usable before the '90s... the Mac, Amiga, and ST had seven good years "delivering the future" before Windows 3.1 shipped. And while the Mac cost more than the PC it was Commodore and Atari who were the lowest bidders back then.

    9. Re:When has Microsoft brought us the future? by argent · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, I did say "Microsoft Research has been doing interesting stuff in the past decade or so, but that's more a sign of *increasing* innovation at Microsoft, if anything." TFA was complaining that Microsoft had *become* mired down in infighting. Implying it had been better in some golden age I can't quite remember.

      And most of what Microsoft Research does never gets from the "car show" to the "showroom floor".

    10. Re:When has Microsoft brought us the future? by ajlisows · · Score: 1, Troll

      Actually, he didn't misspell Apple, Atari, and Commodore. In terms of the general populace, Microsoft is the one that shipped a GUI to most people. Yeah, there were people with computers back in the 80's but the percentage of the populace that owned a computer then as compared to now is very low. Most people who own a computer today may have a vague notion about Commodore ("Hey! My dorky uncle had one of them Commodore 64 things") and probably know Atari because of the Atari 2600.

    11. Re:When has Microsoft brought us the future? by argent · · Score: 1

      In terms of the general populace, Microsoft is the one that shipped a GUI to most people.

      Ah, so you're arguing that he wasn't *wrong*, he was trying to slip in a *red herring*. By the time Windows was usable, a GUI wasn't "the future", it was "the past".

      PS: Damn kids, get off my lawn!

    12. Re:When has Microsoft brought us the future? by jcr · · Score: 1

      Also, what would be your base for comparison?

      Oh, there were dozens. TurboPascal, Aztec C, Lightspeed C, and all of the compilers that the various minicomputer vendors offered on their products spring to mind.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    13. Re:When has Microsoft brought us the future? by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 1

      What's so innovative about the Courier compared to the iPad?

    14. Re:When has Microsoft brought us the future? by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 1

      I have read the link, and all it has is a dual screen. Exactly how is that innovative? What does it actually do in terms of improving the interface?

      The innovation with the iPad is the software it runs.

    15. Re:When has Microsoft brought us the future? by oreaq · · Score: 1

      The past? So you've stopped using GUIs in the early 90's?

    16. Re:When has Microsoft brought us the future? by janimal · · Score: 1

      C# is a ripoff off Delphi Pascal, and so is the IDE. Delphi came out in 1995ish, which is way before .NET.

      C# is the work of Delphi's architect, if I have my facts straight; it's a fantastic product, but it's not innovation any more than Windows.

    17. Re:When has Microsoft brought us the future? by jmac_the_man · · Score: 1
      For one thing, it's really hard to say that Apple's device innovated the tablet and Microsoft's did not when the Microsoft product was announced 4 months before the Apple one. They were both in development at the same time.

      For another thing, the iPad will run things out of the iPhone app store. While this may not have been true when it was released, a new product using that app store is no longer innovative. (By the way, the XBox Live Arcade is essentially an app store, and has been around since before the iPhone. Who created that, again?)

      Finally, that link says nothing about what software the Courier will run, nor how it will improve the interface. (Actually, I'd argue that having a hard cover over the screen (which will happen when the device is folded in half) is an improvement to the interface because the interface won't get scratched as often.

    18. Re:When has Microsoft brought us the future? by jmac_the_man · · Score: 1

      I, for one, use the command line.

    19. Re:When has Microsoft brought us the future? by oreaq · · Score: 1

      In konsole, terminal, xshell, putty, or cmd.exe?

    20. Re:When has Microsoft brought us the future? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      C# is a ripoff off Delphi Pascal, and so is the IDE. Delphi came out in 1995ish, which is way before .NET.

      You should get your comparisons right: VB was a ripoff off Delphi, not .NET ~

      C# is the work of Delphi's architect, if I have my facts straight

      Anders Hejlsberg was (and remains) the lead language designer. Yes, he's the guy who wrote Turbo Pascal, and then the first version of Delphi, before Microsoft hired him.

      However, this doesn't mean that C# is a "Delphi clone". If anything, it's closer to being a Java clone, but even then the language is noticeably different. It definitely does borrow some ideas from VB (who sometimes got them from Delphi, and sometimes not), and some ideas from Delphi directly (e.g. explicit virtual & override keywords seem to be from there). It also does have its own unique ideas, and the whole combination is definitely unique.

      In any case, no language and no framework is developed from scratch - they all borrow ideas from, and build on concepts of, those that came before them. You can just as well say that Delphi is a rip-off off Algol-60, and it would be just as true (and equally meaningless).

    21. Re:When has Microsoft brought us the future? by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      My computer came with a MS made breakout-like game at the 80's that was great. They didn't make only compilers...

      But BASIC was already lame. I guess it was lame at the 70's too. Too bad I didn't know any better by the time.

    22. Re:When has Microsoft brought us the future? by quanticle · · Score: 1

      That's very true. I mean, look at the Singularity micro-kernel based OS that was developed there. It received some good press when Microsoft Research unveiled it years ago, but what of it after that? Nothing. Its as if the entire project was sucked into a black hole. I don't see anything in the latest versions of Windows (Vista and 7) that looks like it was inspired by Singularity.

      --
      We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
    23. Re:When has Microsoft brought us the future? by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 1

      Finally, that link says nothing about what software the Courier will run, nor how it will improve the interface.

      Exactly. Until they give a proper demo of the end software that will run on the Courier, it's had to say how innovative it really is.

    24. Re:When has Microsoft brought us the future? by jmac_the_man · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Until they give a proper demo of the end software that will run on the Courier, it's had to say how innovative it really is.

      But we know what software the iPad will run. Is running things out of the iPhone App Store innovative?

    25. Re:When has Microsoft brought us the future? by jmac_the_man · · Score: 1

      It was a joke. Was it that non-obvious?

    26. Re:When has Microsoft brought us the future? by oreaq · · Score: 1

      My response was not that serious either. Was it that non-obvious?

    27. Re:When has Microsoft brought us the future? by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 1

      Are you saying in order for software to be considered innovative, it has to be distributed via some new mechanism?

  3. So, competition is killing competitiveness? by spun · · Score: 3, Insightful

    And cooperation would make Microsoft more competitive? This is a clear example of how competition doesn't produce excellence, cooperation does. If competition really DID produce excellence, then all companies would be organized with multiply redundant, competing internal departments. Obviously, that's not the case: internally, companies function cooperatively, and those that foster too much internal competition ultimately fail.

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    1. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by sopssa · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Exactly. Cooperation should be kept inside company, and fight with competition with other companies. Work together, but have enemies that push you to work better. Sadly, people are people and mostly care about their own goals.

    2. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by Grishnakh · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Competition does produce excellence when all competitors are engaged in positive activities, like building competing products the best they can to see who's is better.

      Competition falls apart when the competitors resort to sabotage, instead of simply doing their best in a fair competition.

      I'm actually shocked that I'm about to do this, but I'm going to bring up a sports analogy: people like to watch sports games, which are competitions between two (or more sometimes) teams or people. Audiences like fair competitions. But if the competitors start cheating (like with steroids) or using sabotage (like Nancy Kerrigan), audiences don't like that, and if it happens too much, the sport starts losing audiences and falling apart (like baseball). Along these lines, no one's going to watch a sports game that only involves cooperation, instead of competition. Of course, there is one exception to this rule: hockey. Sabotage is perfectly acceptable there: teams frequently get a disposable "bully" player to pick a fight with one of the opposing team's best players to take him out of action for a while.

      The problem with competition inside companies, even if it didn't involve sabotage, is that it consumes a lot of extra resources which could be spent on more profitable activity, such as producing more products for sale. Decently-run companies typically already have all the competition they want, and more, from their competitor companies, and wouldn't dream of creating even more unnecessary competition within. Only a truly stupidly-run company would do this. Unfortunately, some companies have giant unstoppable cash cows that let them waste tons of resources on this kind of idiocy.

    3. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by MojoRilla · · Score: 1

      In the entertainment space, companies are organized into competitive divisions. Each division has its own bottom line, and compete for resources within the company.

    4. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by spun · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Of course people care about their own goals. But most people's goals are not 'others must lose so I can win.' Recent economic research shows that people seem to be more motivated by notions of fairness and reciprocity than selfish gain.

      Enemies aren't the best push to work harder. Friends that you don't want to let down are a better, more reliable motivator, IMHO.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    5. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by dangitman · · Score: 1

      And cooperation would make Microsoft more competitive? This is a clear example of how competition doesn't produce excellence, cooperation does.

      That depends. Cooperation is all well and good if you're cooperating towards a decent goal. But if you're cooperating towards a flawed goal, then that only increases the rate of your failure. Ultimately, you need vision to choose what goal you want to work towards. I think that is what has been lacking at Microsoft - lately they've just been taking a shotgun approach, just try whatever and see if it works.

      With regards to the competitive aspect - competition can produce good results. But it has to be worthwhile competition, not corrupt backbiting as illustrated by the article. From reading the article, it seems that Microsoft has become a collection of fiefdoms. A bunch of "vice presidents" of various areas protecting their own turf - not people who are trying to achieve a goal other than self-preservation. Management culture gone awry.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    6. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by pow2clk · · Score: 5, Informative

      ... using sabotage (like Nancy Kerrigan) . . .

      Not to distract from your overall point, which is well taken, but in the interest of fairness and accuracy, I feel I must point out that it was Tonya Harding who sabotaged Nancy Kerrigan.

    7. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by ben0207 · · Score: 5, Funny

      It sort of worked out for her though, as she is now the Queen of Blades, leading an almighty Zerg armada across Terran space.

      --
      cmd-q.co.uk - some sort of stupid fucking internet bullshit
    8. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by spun · · Score: 1

      You know, the problem you ascribe to competition inside companies is one of the prblems that exist with competition between companies: duplication of effort, and consumption of extra resources. Competition also destroys intrinsic motivations: if you are doing something to beat others, you aren't doing it because you love it. In fact, even if you did love it, over time, you won't anymore, you'll only love winning.

      Your example doesn't really show that competition produces excellence, if anything, it outlines the motivations competitors have for cheating.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    9. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by spun · · Score: 1

      Examples?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    10. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by spun · · Score: 1

      While I understand from your post that you believe competition produces good results, I have no idea why you believe that. Is it just 'common knowledge,' or do you have any sort of argument to back up your belief?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    11. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that Nancy was the saboteur, just that she was involved in the incident. I couldn't remember Tonya's name. I should have said "the Nancy Kerrigan incident"; that was sloppy of me.

    12. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      Along these lines, no one's going to watch a sports game that only involves cooperation, instead of competition.

      Synchronised Swimming has a world wide audience!

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    13. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by dangitman · · Score: 1

      I think you're misconstruing my argument a little. I'm not saying that competition always produces good results - in fact, the major part of my argument is that the type of competition within Microsoft actually produces terrible results. What I was saying is that under the right conditions both competition and cooperation can create good results. But the major thrust of my argument is that both are useless without good leadership and vision.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    14. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by Grishnakh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You know, the problem you ascribe to competition inside companies is one of the prblems that exist with competition between companies: duplication of effort, and consumption of extra resources.

      That's only in theory. In practice, it works quite well, as we can see from history. Can you point to any society where companies never compete with each other, and the society is successful? The Soviet Union worked like that (there were lots of companies, managed by the State, and prohibited from competing with each other). It was a disaster; things were rationed, and quality was crap. Market-based economies have always worked well (just look how much it's done for China; they were all starving under a command economy and now they own America), and they're intrinsically based on competition.

      If you don't have competition, you have no way of 1) determining who does the best job, and 2) preventing shoddiness and poor performance from becoming commonplace. In a command economy, the upper government tells one company to make widget A, and they do. If it sucks, it's too bad, because there's no alternatives. You could try to fire the managers of the company, but that won't get your widget made properly any faster, plus the problems may be endemic, and simply replacing the managers won't fix it. In a competitive economy, different companies are free to try different approaches, and the best one wins. It's not perfect (like when marketing gets involved and gets people to buy shoddy products), but it's a lot better than the alternative.

      Competition also destroys intrinsic motivations: if you are doing something to beat others, you aren't doing it because you love it.

      Love? With most jobs, it's called "work" because it isn't fun. Suppose your job is to clean toilets. Someone has to do it, but no one really likes it. Most people do work because they want money, not because they love it. I don't even like my job very much, and I went to college to do this (software engineering). If I didn't have to work, I'm sure I'd have fun writing my own software, but doing it for someone else (and dealing with their dumb requirements and rules, and having to drive in traffic to work every morning, and sit in a bullpen, etc. etc.) isn't much fun. But it's a better job than cleaning toilets or flipping burgers, and pays a lot better too, so I stick with it.

      And companies that compete don't do it to "beat others", but to survive and make more money. More money = more success and means being that much closer to retirement or whatever your goals are. If you can do a better job than your competitors, you get more business and more money.

      Your example doesn't really show that competition produces excellence, if anything, it outlines the motivations competitors have for cheating.

      No, business competition is like a big game. And like any other normal game, there's rules, or else the biggest thug will win by brute force. Sure, businesses cheat sometimes, and that's why we have a government and laws to deter this kind of behavior. Unfortunately, sometimes we have governments (like in the USA) which don't want to enforce laws or have lax regulation, and then you get things like massive mortgage bubbles. Just like in any sports competition (here I go again, a guy who normally hates sports), you have to have rules and referees to make sure competition is fair, or else the whole thing collapses. Notice how no one watches baseball any more because all the players are taking steroids.

      Even in places where you'd think people would avoid competition, they still do. Look at the F/OSS world; there's lots of cooperation (like the thousands of developers working together on the Linux kernel, or on KDE, etc.), but there's also lots of competition (KDE vs. GNOME, Linux vs. *BSD, XFree86 vs. X.org, etc.). It actually works a little better than companies because developers are more free to choose which project ("team") they want to join, based on how interested they are in the project

    15. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Synchronised Swimming has a world wide audience!

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronized_swimming

      Synchronized swimming is a competitive sport. It involves competition between teams; they just don't compete at the same time like most other team-based sports. It's just like figure skating. Each skating team does a performance for the highest score, and the team with the highest score at the end wins.

      I don't think there's a such thing as a "sport" that doesn't involve competition.

    16. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Modern Economic research ???

      Ok, so you're blind to :
      - The previous century's worth of psychological research
      - The original intent behind the Intellectual Property thingy (roughly 300 years-old)
      - The whole concept of Democratic Society (at least 3'000 years-old in Greece)
      - Religious teachings worldwide since 100s of thousands of years (but I'll grant you that "be fair to other" is only an hint, not a real "proof" using mathematical game theory concepts that can only by roughly mapped to actual living humans' behaviour)

      I knew that Americans where ignorant of History, but at THAT level, I had no inkling !!!

      P.S : do you realize that the last sentence in your post throws down the whole "science" of Economics (competing for scarce ressources) ... and dogmas of US politics since the end of WW2 (see Cuba, Iraq and so on...) ?

    17. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by shovas · · Score: 1

      Good post but as a hockey fan and player I have a nitpick: A bully player rarely goes after one of the better players on the other team. He goes after the other bully on the other team to create energy for his team. You don't watch much hockey? Figured I'd educate the world on the amazing sport of hockey which at first glance appears barbarous but is actually quite a complex sport, like all good sport.

      --
      Selah.ca. Pause, and calmly think on that.
    18. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      It's not necessarily competitive - you can do it with your friends down at the pool with no competition if you like. It can be made into a competition - as can most things. People generally don't consider singing a competition - but if you enter an eisteddfod, or go on reality TV it can be made competitive.

      That said, my comment was a humerous attempt to agree with you. Synchronised swimming is (at least in my country) the most notoriously un-cared about olympic sport, and is characterised by it's co-operative rather than competitive nature.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    19. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NO, competition doesn't necessarily produce excellence, even when fair :

      Suppose that some pharmaceutical company's research stumbles on a FREE way to end Cancer ... ... in that case, competition's rule state that IT HAS TO BE BURIED (otherwise, no money, and job)

      Suppose that some Electrical engineer found a way to get FREE electicity with zero side effects ? ... result : buried technology, resulting in present day's addiction to Fossil Fuels & Nuclear Wastes

      Get the point ?
      Economy works ONLY when applied to its stated objective, that it, "management of scarce ressources" ... when ressources are no longer scarce through brillant discoveries, the whole business of Economics produces ABSURD results (for exemple, one could try his pet economic theory on an hypothetical situation where Money production is not conditionned by physical constraints : I foresee that no hunger/war/poverty/education relief would ensue, despites the moral imperative and brain-dead easy possibility of doing so ...)

    20. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      Wasn't it Harding's boyfriend, Jeff Gillooly, who actually hit Ms. Kerrigan?

    21. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      You might have a point with the pharma example, but the EE example is lame. There's no way to get free electricity; it's called the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.

      Anyway, you're describing very rare exceptions to the rule. And again, no one has come up with anything that works better. The Soviets tried the cooperative thing, and it was a disaster. Human nature prevents people from working hard without a suitable reward, and "the good of society" isn't it. Star Trek tried to predict a future without money, but they never went into any detail on how it was accomplished or how it worked, because if they had the answer to that, we wouldn't still have our current societies. Utopia sounds nice, but it just isn't realistic. Maybe if we genetically engineered ourselves to be more like ants, removing human failings like greed, envy, selfishness, and indeed individualism, we could have a much more "successful" society in the sense that it'd be most productive.

    22. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But if the competitors start cheating (like with steroids)...the sport starts losing audiences and falling apart (like baseball)

      I think your point is a valid one, but the baseball part of it isn't right. I don't think you can look at baseball's Steroids era as anything other than a net positive for the popularity of the sport. Prior to McGwire's and Sosa's steroid-fueled assault on the single-season HR record, baseball's popularity was lower than it had been in a long time. They were just coming back from a strike and there were many bitter viewers that had stopped caring about baseball. That summer's excitement is largely credited with reviving interest in baseball. As much as the recent steroid fiasco has tarnished baseball's image, it hasn't hurt viewership to nearly the extent that it helped it the summer of '98. There's a reason why it took an act of congress to force baseball to address the steroids issue...home runs are popular and most viewers don't care how players hit them.

    23. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by BlueStraggler · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't think there's a such thing as a "sport" that doesn't involve competition.

      Hunting.

      You can draw your own parallels with how Microsoft competes.

    24. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by Gorobei · · Score: 1

      None, of course, because they are not really organized like that.

      Entertainment firms, law firms, and finance firms tend to be loosely coupled profit centers with a shared infrastructure. They fight over cost allocations, but are not usually competitive with each other.

    25. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course people care about their own goals. But most people's goals are not 'others must lose so I can win.' Recent economic research shows that people seem to be more motivated by notions of fairness and reciprocity than selfish gain.

      Enemies aren't the best push to work harder. Friends that you don't want to let down are a better, more reliable motivator, IMHO.

      It doesn't matter if more "seem to be more motivated by notions of fairness" if there are even a couple greedy/unfair corporations out there. Seems to me fairness is fragile. You are more likely to make a quick buck by back stabbing than working for the greater good.

    26. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by jbengt · · Score: 1

      The Soviets tried the cooperative thing . . .

      Try telling that to Stalin's competition.

    27. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course people care about their own goals. But most people's goals are not 'others must lose so I can win.' Recent economic research shows that people seem to be more motivated by notions of fairness and reciprocity than selfish gain.

      Enemies aren't the best push to work harder. Friends that you don't want to let down are a better, more reliable motivator, IMHO.

      Oh, like druggie friends that like to fix with each other. Wait until the source thins and see what friends are! If the fiend doesn't pimp you, the MBA will! Either way you're on the bread line, Probie.

    28. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by evil_aar0n · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      > But most people's goals are not 'others must lose so I can win.'

      I'm not trying to start a flame-war, here - seriously - but this is, part and parcel, the Republican game plan. They came out and said as much after Obama won the presidency.

      --
      Truth, Justice. Or the American Way.
    29. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by drsmithy · · Score: 1, Redundant

      Recent economic research shows that people seem to be more motivated by notions of fairness and reciprocity than selfish gain.

      The current global economic situation suggests otherwise.

    30. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Along these lines, no one's going to watch a sports game that only involves cooperation, instead of competition.

      Two problems with this analogy: First, sports are watched for entertainment, and not because they're productive. That competition is more entertaining than cooperation isn't terrifically important when you're not interested in entertaining viewers.

      Second, a lot of sports involve an awful lot of cooperation. Yes, they have competition between teams, but any team sport requires cooperation within the team. Once you have a single clear goal, then cooperation is often more productive.

    31. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Second, a lot of sports involve an awful lot of cooperation. Yes, they have competition between teams, but any team sport requires cooperation within the team. Once you have a single clear goal, then cooperation is often more productive.

      That's just like companies. Companies require cooperation within the company to be successful; they only compete with other companies.

      However, having a single goal isn't enough for productivity. You need a good plan, strategy, and good management to execute it. This is how lots of companies fail: their management is incompetent and downright stupid. Others just have flawed plans or ideas. So if you don't have competition, you can easily end up with bad results. If there's multiple companies working towards the same goal, there's a better chance one of them will do well. Finally, competition is a motivator. How many people would argue that IE8 is worse than IE6, even among Linux fans? Well, IE8 would never have happened if it weren't for competition from Firefox. That's the only thing that drove MS to just stick with IE6.

    32. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by stargazer1sd · · Score: 1

      Maybe that's true in elsewhere, but the large US company is a totally different environment.

      Many US companies have middle management layers that are populated by individuals who care more about their own personal success than the success of the company as a whole. Since their actions have few direct consequences inside a large company, selfish individuals rise to the top faster than their more idealistic peers.

      Once this self-centered mindset sets in, it's nearly impossible to incorporate any significant or disruptive innovation. Yet that's precisely what a company has to do to thrive in a changing environment.

      It's clearly happened to Microsoft and a host of other technology companies too. Sadly, I don't think I've ever read an article that deals directly with a self centered management mindset. Maybe someone can study the Microsoft collapse after it happens.

      --
      Play it cool, play it cool, 50-50 fire and ice.
    33. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Finally, competition is a motivator. How many people would argue that IE8 is worse than IE6, even among Linux fans? Well, IE8 would never have happened if it weren't for competition from Firefox. That's the only thing that drove MS to just stick with IE6.

      Right, but Microsoft's "single clear goal" with IE has never been to make a good browser.

    34. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by spun · · Score: 1

      I do have an example. The Mondragon Cooperative in the Basque region of Spain. It went from subsistence farming to an industrial powerhouse in about fifty years. All businesses, government services, and housing are cooperative.

      You don't need competition to prevent shoddiness and poor performance, I don't compete with my family, and yet I still do my best for them. And 'the best job' isn't something that only one person can do. In fact, to determine who is the best, you need to use some kind of arbitrary measure for determining the best, and you need everyone to agree to that measure.

      I like cleaning toilets. In fact, I have an excellent system for cleaning bathrooms in general, and I enjoy the sense of satisfaction that comes from busting a job out in the most efficient manner possible.

      Business do not cheat 'sometimes.' The phrase you are looking for is 'whenever the rewards for cheating outweigh the risks.' Corporations are sociopathic by nature, they have no morals.

      Places that avoid competition avoid the specific kind of competition I'm talking about: some must lose in order for one to win. If no one has to lose, it isn't competition.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    35. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by spun · · Score: 1

      How so? I never said everyone: a small percentage of people are sociopaths, and if we let them dictate the rules, then everyone has to play the selfishness game.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    36. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by quanticle · · Score: 1

      You don't need competition to prevent shoddiness and poor performance, I don't compete with my family, and yet I still do my best for them.

      Cooperation at that level only works for small groups, like families and tribes. That model of cooperation breaks down when society grows to the point where people can't know (however vaguely) all of the other members of the group.

      --
      We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
    37. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by spun · · Score: 1

      These guys seem to prove you absolutely wrong. From subsistence farming to 256 companies, 92,000 employees, and $16 billion in annual revenue in around 50 years.

      Socialism: it just works.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    38. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by highfidelitychris · · Score: 1

      But if the competitors start cheating (like with steroids) or using sabotage (like Nancy Kerrigan), audiences don't like that, and if it happens too much, the sport starts losing audiences and falling apart (like baseball).

      Sorry, but baseball has been increasing attendance the last 3 years and has recently broken its all time attendance records. Your analysis of baseball is simply not true.

    39. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      So North Korea should be doing extremely well economically, by this logic.

    40. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      So without competition, we'd all be stuck with crappy IE6 because that's what Microsoft wants. Regardless of MS's precise goals, they had a working browser, and making a competing browser like Firefox was "duplicated effort". So according to all the socialists here, the Mozilla developers should have spent their time doing something else, and we should all be paying MS whatever they ask for the privilege of using Windows and IE6.

    41. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is a fundamental point here I disagree with: "If you don't have competition, you have no way of 1) determining who does the best job, and 2) preventing shoddiness and poor performance from becoming commonplace." One other way to do this is to establish KPIs for where you want to go, and then use whether or not people hit their KPIs (and presumably, if they've set intelligent goals) and move the business ahead as the primary factor in determining who has done the best job. This provides a clear northstar to judge whether you are successful independent of what competitors might be doing (helpful in maintaining forward momentum in advance of competitors) and also encourages risk taking and innovation: if people are valued according to the value they create, and the value that they help to create, then they are incented to innovoate and invest in the projects likely to drive increases in market and shareholder value.

    42. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by spun · · Score: 1

      What does a dictatorship have to do with socialism? Straw man much? Hell, North Korea isn't even communist, let alone socialist, it's just one crazy dude running things. Socialism and communism are defined by being democracies: if it isn't a democracy, it doesn't matter what your economic system is, you don't have socialism or communism. You have, more than likely, some form of fascism or dictatorship.

      I can see that you've run out of argument, though, and are resorting to logical fallacies and appeal to emotion, so, we're done here. We can discuss this again when you calm down and go back to arguing intelligently like you were before.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    43. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by nine-times · · Score: 1

      So according to all the socialists here...

      ???

      Sounds like you're making up stuff. I said, "Once you have a single clear goal, then cooperation is often more productive." So just based on that sentence, it requires that you assume we all have the same clearly defined goal, and then I only said it would "often" be more productive.

      Microsoft had many goals, including collecting ad revenue, enforcing vendor lock-in, and controlling the future of computing. Those goals are different from (and even opposed to) the goals of many of the people in the FOSS community as well as end-users themselves. Therefore competition makes a lot of sense.

      But then take a look at what has happened with Mozilla, Apple, KDE, and Chrome. They share many of the same goals, and so you see some kinds of cooperation and it works out well. However, each of them has their own goals and so they compete to some degree. Still, you get cooperation at least in developing new HTML and CSS standards.

    44. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by spun · · Score: 1

      The previous century of psychological research actually backs up recent economic research

      I've got no idea what you mean by the original intent behind 'intellectual property.'

      How does the fact that people are basically good, and not selfish, overturn the whole concept of democracy?

      Okay, this last one is just hilarious. Religious teachings world wide have always said the same thing this economic research says.

      Wow, my post must have caused you a brain aneurysm or something, because I can practically see your frothing spittle flying out my monitor. These ideas, backed up by science, just completely shatter your selfish world view, don't they?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    45. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by quanticle · · Score: 1

      If socialism works so well, can you name one non-dictatorial nation-state that has organized its economy on socialist principles?

      --
      We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
    46. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is an absolute dictatorship relevant?

    47. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by spun · · Score: 1

      Give me a break. Sweden. Denmark. England. France. There's four, and I've barely started on Europe. Socialism isn't communism, and neither one is fascism.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    48. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by quanticle · · Score: 1

      By that definition, the United States is socialist as well. The difference between the states you quote and the USA is one of degree not of kind.

      All of them allow for private property, and have the majority of goods exchanged with money, rather than through central control. None of them are like the Mondragon Society, which divides all profit amongst its workers and has fixed wage ratios between the lowest and highest levels.

      --
      We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
    49. Re:So, competition is killing competitiveness? by spun · · Score: 1

      Please. Read what socialism means. It isn't communism: individuals own private property. So can citizens in Mondragon. And, although Mondragon does have fixed rations for wages, it does not do the same for ownership.

      But in a sense, you are right. Almost all states practice some form of socialism, with collective ownership of certain services or industries, and profit sharing. We all own the police, fire departments, and libraries, for instance, and we all profit from them.

      Communist states have no private property. Socialist states have a mix of private property and state property. A pure capitalist economy would have no state property. You'd buy your police, fire, education, and all other goods and services in the free market. And when I say, 'property,' I really mean the means of production. Even in the old USSR, people could own some forms of private property.

      But what ticked off the owning class world wide was that the rich could not monopolize the means of production. That meant that citizens did not have to play the rich man's game, they could (in theory) provide for themselves without giving a cut of everything they did to some wealthy financier. And that meant everyone could be equal (again, in theory: it didn't quite work out that way) and the owning class do not want that. It isn't how much they have, it is how much more they have than we do. They want to be top dogs, they don't want everyone to have equal opportunities, they want to be able to hand their kids the top spot on the totem pole, so their kids can shit on your kids and laugh.

      So the question is, what is the correct split between public and private ownership of the means of production? As I said, communism failed. Because the owning class fought back so hard, the violent sociopaths in the nascent movement rose to the top. It took too much violence and callousness to throw off the yoke of the owning class, and so essentially, another owning class took over Russia. The USSR was communist for two years right after the revolution, after that, it was an oligarchy.

      Another problem was (and is) the lack of price signals in a command economy. In Chile in late sixties, Salvador Allende was poised to fix that. He had a prototype analog computer and communications system built that let citizens participate in direct democracy, and essentially vote on how much of what gets made.

      Can't have THAT actually work. So we killed him, overthrew his government, and installed a brutal military dictator.

      The other problem is one of motivation. In studies I have seen, privatizing factories in competitive industries makes them more efficient (this may be related to the lack of price signals in a command economy, or it may be that workers do not feel like contributing 100% to a corrupt system, or it may really be that people need the spur of competition to work their hardest.) However, privatizing natural monopolies like water, sewer and electric companies does the opposite, it makes them worse. In a natural monopoly, there can be no competition. The second guy to build a sewer system in a city gets exactly 0% of the business.

      I'm not a communist. I think everyone is entitled to the fruits of their labor. If you work harder, or are smarter, you should be able to go farther. But not THAT much farther. And, if everyone is entitled to the fruits of their labor, the fat cat financiers and other leaches on the backs of productive members of society should get the same as any bum on the street who won't work: food, clean water, shelter, medical care, and an opportunity to get off their fat lazy asses and contribute if they want anything more than that.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
  4. Not surprising? by InlawBiker · · Score: 1

    The goal at any large corporation is to leverage their market position, which in technical terms is "fuck-ton huge." They're way past the innovation stage, except there they have to be Zune is a good example. They came up with a solid product pretty quickly when they put their minds to it. Sure, they're getting their asses kicked, but it's a good product.

    1. Re:Not surprising? by swb · · Score: 1

      I think a lot of the problem is that the "goal" never really was innovative products, it was always a businessey goal of world domination. Ballmer was B-school all the way, Gates was the son of a lawyer. These weren't innovation guys, they were make money and win guys, which is why its always been nearly transparent that their goal is domination via monopoly.

      And chances are this was the core culture at Microsoft at the management level -- they hired really smart people who thought the same way, and I'm sure it has trickled down through the layers of product management as well.

      At that point, the standard inter-departmental warfare and turf protection you see anywhere just becomes kind of synergistic -- I'm sure the product manager for Office wields that product like a monopoly inside Microsoft the same way Microsoft does Windows in the computer marketplace. Defend Office against anyone that would undermine their control of Office and Office's internal power.

      I'm sure the internal culture would never allow for it, but it'd be interesting to see MS setup a separate entity, officed somewhere else (Minneapolis or some other location outside the usual centers of IT gravity) and give them a billion dollars cash and the source to Windows and tell them to come up with a new OS that could run on the same hardware as Windows and Windows programs, but have no other limitations, marketing handicaps or management oversight.

      I would bet the outcome would be pretty cool and be missing a lot of the needless bullshit that internal politics and the driving business motivation ends up handicapping Windows (and producing stuff like Vista).

    2. Re:Not surprising? by RichM · · Score: 2, Informative

      They came up with a solid product pretty quickly when their pensions were threatened.

      Fixed that for you.

    3. Re:Not surprising? by Kazoo+the+Clown · · Score: 1

      The goal at any large corporation is to leverage their market position, ...

      The problem here is Microsoft spent too much time trying to leverage their market position when they should have spent more of that time improving their quality. They seem to be of the opinion that quality doesn't matter if you have sufficient market share to squash the competition without it. The problem with that idea, is it's a short-term solution, eventually the quality problems will come back to bite you.

      And "leveraging your market position," is a monopolization tactic, essentially a form of cheating that when it becomes the predominant corporate culture, undermines the ability to compete in markets where their market position is not so strong. It's a poor substitute for a better product.

  5. Why innovate? by Fractal+Dice · · Score: 2, Insightful

    1. profit 2. ??? 3. innovation

    1. Re:Why Innovate? by Thantik · · Score: 1

      Why risk copying when you can just buy them outright and then sue anyone that comes near you?

    2. Re:Why Innovate? by Greg+Hullender · · Score: 1
      In the case of Tablet Computers, it has been a very long wait for someone to make something that worked!

      --Greg

    3. Re:Why innovate? by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 5, Funny

      Actually, it's more like this...

      1. Profit!
      2. Try to exterminate competition
      3. Realize it doesn't work against Google
      4. Throw chairs
      5. Litigate
      6. Realize other products like Firefox are eating your market share, DESPITES your efforts to monopolize the market
      7. Patent troll
      8. Realize people aren't buying your FUD
      9. Realize you have to GPL some of your products because they found out you plagiarized some code
      10. Throw more chairs
      11. Realize how the media are turning against you
      12. Get back in the bandwagon
      13. Fire Ballmer
      14. Buy chairproof shields for your buildings
      15. Innovate

      or...

      13b. Invest more in the XBOX dept.

      16. Profit!

    4. Re:Why innovate? by Rene+S.+Hollan · · Score: 1

      Note to self: consider trying to become MSFT's exclusive chair supplier.

      --
      In Liberty, Rene
    5. Re:Why innovate? by loners · · Score: 1

      Better switch the order of 13 and 14 or the shields may be used to cover up the chair shaped holes.

    6. Re:Why innovate? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hope I invested in the chair company.

    7. Re:Why innovate? by nine-times · · Score: 1

      13b. Invest more in the XBOX dept.

      Right, because the XBox couldn't possibly lose money.

    8. Re:Why innovate? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      13. Fire Ballmer
      14. Buy chairproof shields for your buildings

      Wrong order on those my friend. Get the shields before you give him reason to open fire.

    9. Re:Why innovate? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i see no point in chair-proofing when you've previously fired ballmer :P

    10. Re:Why innovate? by good+water · · Score: 1

      so how did you get from 13b to 16 again?

    11. Re:Why innovate? by dc29A · · Score: 1

      so how did you get from 13b to 16 again?

      He used Microsoft Excel.

    12. Re:Why innovate? by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      You are avoiding chairs going from outside to inside. On a second note, all the people that said to chairproof windows before firing Ballmer get it wrong. Chairproofing windows is a reason to start throwing chairs, what you need is a very long firing meeting.

  6. Methinks he doth protest too much. by argent · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Tablet PC might have become a great product, over the long term, but when it was released NT was far too heavy-weight a product to base it on. Unfortunately the Tablet PC had management's ear, and the more practical (for the time) Pocket PC and Handheld PC lines based on their existing mobile operating system got largely squashed and forced into a secondary role. They could have had something more like the iPad, based on Windows CE, for a more affordable price... with applications targeted for the handheld environment. Instead they got the overpriced Tablet PC.

    Why didn't management just let both products proceed as best they could? Because they were trying to PREVENT internal competition.

    1. Re:Methinks he doth protest too much. by Greg+Hullender · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Actually I'd claim that the real problem with Pocket PC and Tablet PC (and I worked on both products) was that they predated cheap, universal wireless communications. The effort to send a text message from a cell phone is much greater than any of the input methods on either of those devices, yet millions of people do it all the time. That wireless network totally changed the value proposition of one of these devices, and before that, they just weren't worth the trouble.

      In plain terms, the isolated Tablet was little more than a crippled laptop, and the isolated Pocket PC was almost completely useless. Attach them to a network, though, and they become something magical. Something none of us working on them was wise enough to foresee.

      --Greg

    2. Re:Methinks he doth protest too much. by Ohio+Calvinist · · Score: 1

      Microsoft's strength and weakness has always been that it has allowed any Windows application to run on almost any Windows device with little modification (if any). Windows CE was marketed as "lightweight Windows" but it did not run Windows applications, it ran poor replacements for Windows applications (Pocket Word, Pocket Excel) that were not good enough to replace their PC analogues, but because they were branded as such seemed far inferior. I think their issue was being "too" ahead of the curve, unable to provide a consumer product with the horsepower at a reasonable cost that didn't act like a really useless PC that ran none of their apps and had next to no storage versus a mildly more expensive laptop. (From someone who owned CE 2.1 and PocketPC devices). The devices failed to attract developers. Tablets were expensive, and as the article suggested, were Windows PC with crappy bolt-on pen support that raised the price $1000. Microsoft also has to deal with lackluster hardware releases from vendors looking to maximize short-run profits over market dominance. In every case you see Microsoft trying to make XBOX development like Windows development, Windows Mobile development like Windows development. Apple on the other hand seems content to have a mobile software ecosystem and a "computer" software ecosystem, even though the distinction is based on role/purpose and input method over any profound distinction. In the end, the bar is different. Any Microsoft Tablet will get asked the question "Will it run Office (well)" where Apple is asked "Will it play music, movies and run Facebook." The customers are demanding new ways to use their PC from Microsoft, and the customers are asking apple for media devices.

      --
      Forgive my spelling from time to time. I'm often posting during short breaks.
    3. Re:Methinks he doth protest too much. by argent · · Score: 1

      Microsoft's strength and weakness has always been that it has allowed any Windows application to run on almost any Windows device with little modification (if any). Windows CE was marketed as "lightweight Windows" but it did not run Windows applications, it ran poor replacements for Windows applications (Pocket Word, Pocket Excel) that were not good enough to replace their PC analogues, but because they were branded as such seemed far inferior.

      And yet that is precisely what Apple has provided on the iPhone and will provide on the iPad... a restricted environment with a subset of the functionality of the desktop. And if Microsoft was willing to really put the effort behind going the same route, they could have pulled it off too.

      Pocket Word was good enough to replace Word for most users. Pocket Excel was good enough to replace Excel for most users. Microsoft COULD have said that, if they were willing to allow internal competition. But they wouldn't, because they weren't. They didn't WANT the PPC and HPC becoming laptop replacements. They didn't WANT to be in a position of saying you didn't need all the features of Excel (or that you didn't need to upgrade to Office 2000-and-next).

      As a good friend of mine recently reminded me, DEC torpedoed themselves because they didn't want to have their own products competing with the VAX. Microsoft is not putting themselves in quite as extreme a position, but what's hurting them is what killed DEC... not internal competition, but the efforts to suppress it.

      Any Microsoft Tablet will get asked the question "Will it run Office (well)" where Apple is asked "Will it play music, movies and run Facebook."

      If Microsoft was willing to say "you don't need all of office", they could pull it off. But not when they're using the fact that Linux doesn't run Office so effectively in their own astroturf campaigns.

    4. Re:Methinks he doth protest too much. by argent · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In plain terms, the isolated Tablet was little more than a crippled laptop, and the isolated Pocket PC was almost completely useless.

      I disagree. I got my first handheld (it ran PalmOS, as it happened) in January 2000, and it was far from useless. The Pocket PC was far more powerful, and although it suffered from a number of flaws that made it less useful to ME than a Palm it was certainly far from useless.

      I must admit that the Pocket PC team didn't seem to really appreciated what they had. I had hoped that the PPCWB meeting late in 2000 might have helped wake them up, and it did to some point. For example, when we arrived, us Palm users immediately beamed our cards to each other (I still have all my cards from that meeting), but it was too inconvenient to do that with teh Pocket PC. PPC 2002 improved that a lot. PPC 2002 also got better character recognition, and other improvements. But it didn't get others... it was still clearly subordinate to the desktop, not a partner. We really got the feeling that the product was being deliberately stunted.

      As an aside, when we met the PPC developers several of us asked if we could exchange cards. Only one had their handheld with him, and he hadn't entered his own contact information into it.

      I tried switching to the Jornada I got from that meeting. It was a much better book reader than my Palm, but it just wasn't reliable enough for me, so I bought a Sony Clie to replace it and go back to the Palm OS.

      Ironically, Palm grabbed all our names and set up a mailing list for us to talk to Palm. They called it "Palm Influencers". So far as I can tell, two years of us talking to Palm led to no indications that we had any influence on them at all. Microsoft proved much better at listening.

    5. Re:Methinks he doth protest too much. by hey! · · Score: 1

      It's hard to say for sure about something like that, without having a control universe to test your hypothesis. However, while cheap wireless might have given these products more legs, I don't think it was either necessary or sufficient.

      The huge win with the original Palm Pilot was they got the form factor and price point right. It (1) did something identifiably useful well enough, (2) with sufficient convenience, and (3) at a price that was seen as reasonable.

      The Newton, while vastly more sophisticated, had two of these three things wrong. It's form factor was too big and it was too expensive. It did useful things -- in fact it did way more than it needed to to justify its existence as a mobile platform. It began to infringe on laptop levels of features and price while not being quite as useful. If laptops didn't exist, it would have been a killer product.

      Now sending messages from a plain old cell phone is awkard to be sure, but it also turns out to be in an important sense *convenient*. You always have your phone with you, so getting a phone with texting capability means you're always in touch (for asynchronous communication like text/email, not just synchronous like a phone call). That solves the form factor problem right there -- you're going to be carrying the sucker, so there's zero marginal footprint as far as you're concerned.

      Some of the early converged Windows CE/phone devices were really very impressive for their day (I believe I'm thinking of a certain Samsung device), But *they* didn't catch on, even though they had all the functional bits you needed, because they were approaching Newtonesque dimensions. Take a phone like the Droid and make it the size of a Newton, and suddenly you have a dud, even though it would be vastly superior for certain tasks. If all that was missing was wireless, this should have taken off. Converged phones took off a few years later at the same air time prices, but they were more phone sized.

      Now what I think what killed the PDA was that laptops became cheap. I developed for PocketPC, so I always had access to bucket's of 'em for free, but I almost never carried one except when I wanted to do something with GPS. Why? Because I also had a laptop. Once I had a laptop, I didn't need a featureful handheld platform. I might use a convenient one -- one that did basic PIM type functions without firing up the laptop. But then I got a smartphone, which wasn't a great PDA, but it was good enough.

      I'm still personally mystified why tablets didn't take off, since they were pretty much replacements for laptops, even functioned as laptops. They should have been, in effect, better, more flexible laptops. I can only guess that the software experience wasn't good enough. Maybe somebody else (Apple) will get it right.

      These days, the iPhone and Android phones are *very* good PDAs while hitting the "zero footprint" and "instantly available" desiderata.

      Speaking of the Newton form factor as the kiss of death, the iPad is certainly an interesting development. One thing I've seen is timing is important in creating a new product niche. The iPod touch and iPhone have become platforms that can feed the development of apps to the iPad; the Kindle has established a market niche for devices of this approximate size and Apple has the Kindle squarely in its sights.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    6. Re:Methinks he doth protest too much. by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 1

      There's also the drop in touchscreen prices.

      I can buy a decent tablet now for $500. When tablets were released there was a $1500 PREMIUM on top of the normal laptop price.

    7. Re:Methinks he doth protest too much. by PCM2 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      the isolated Pocket PC was almost completely useless.

      An isolated Pocket PC may have been completely useless, but try telling that to Palm. You know, the company that pioneered the PDA category that Microsoft was forced to play catch-up in? The company that made "PalmPilot" a household word and the butt of many yuppie jokes, even long after they changed the name of the actual product? The problem with Palm, of course, is that it basically sat down and stopped innovating when it was on top. These days, the most widely-known Palm handset is the Treo, and Palm didn't even create those itself. But I'd rather be a has-been like Palm than a never-was like Microsoft.

      P.S. But it's sort of true; one reason I loved my Palm so much is that I could use it with a Ricochet wireless modem in my area.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    8. Re:Methinks he doth protest too much. by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      I'm still personally mystified why tablets didn't take off, since they were pretty much replacements for laptops, even functioned as laptops. They should have been, in effect, better, more flexible laptops. I can only guess that the software experience wasn't good enough.

      Windows XP. Didn't work for tablets and Microsoft half assed attempts to make it work failed big time. I looked at pretty much every XP based tablet around and you're correct - the software sucked (or at least the software / hardware interaction sucked). It didn't help that the processors were power hungry and anemic compared to today's offerings and that battery technology was worse than it is now.

      Note that Apple is taking the other approach this time. It is a big iPod Touch (not a laptop replacement). If they can create a software universe that makes the thing useful to enough people, they've got a winner. If they had done what most of us wanted - make a laptop replacement - it would be a dud market wise.

      I'm still hoping that they make the MAXiPad(TM) which does run OS X and is a laptop replacement for us duds here in the basement.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    9. Re:Methinks he doth protest too much. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anyone interested in the early history of pen computing should read GO Computer founder Jerry Kaplan's book Startup. Among other things, we learn that Pen Windows and the Apple Newton were started largely in response to GO (without attribution, of course). Nobody in the book comes off particularly well, including Kaplan himself. Microsoft's Bill Gates and Jeff Raikes (now both leading the fight against disease at the Gates Foundation) are portrayed as almost unbelievable weasels.

    10. Re:Methinks he doth protest too much. by steelfood · · Score: 1

      This behavior happens in large companies all the time. They cut features not because it's bad or underperforming, but because they're afraid the feature would cannibalize the sales of some other existing product. So then the feature gets completely scrapped.

      The other thing that didn't help tablet PC's was that touch technology was mostly encumbered by patents, and everybody was waiting for the patents to expire before building systems around them. Well, the relevant patents expired a few years ago, and hence the sudden tidal wave of touch screen devices.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
  7. Overstatement by sourcerror · · Score: 1

    The tablet required a stylus, and he much preferred keyboards to pens and thought our efforts doomed. To guarantee they were, he refused to modify the popular Office applications to work properly with the tablet. So if you wanted to enter a number into a spreadsheet or correct a word in an e-mail message, you had to write it in a special pop-up box, which then transferred the information to Office. Annoying, clumsy and slow.

    The pop-up box thing doesn't seem to me a that bad idea, given that your hand-written letters will be much bigger those already on the screen. (But of course I haven't seen it, so I can't be sure.)

    1. Re:Overstatement by dangitman · · Score: 1

      The pop-up box thing doesn't seem to me a that bad idea, given that your hand-written letters will be much bigger those already on the screen. (But of course I haven't seen it, so I can't be sure.)

      But why enter numbers into a spreadsheet with handwriting? Surely some kind of pop-up numeric pad would have been better, or maybe something like the iPhone's scrolly number wheels, or a simple +/- digit increment button?

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    2. Re:Overstatement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But why enter numbers into a spreadsheet with handwriting? Surely some kind of pop-up numeric pad would have been better, or maybe something like the iPhone's scrolly number wheels, or a simple +/- digit increment button?

      I hope you're joking. Try scrolling or using a digit increment to number 5748594 and see if it's better than just writing it with a pen.

    3. Re:Overstatement by dangitman · · Score: 1

      Try scrolling or using a digit increment to number 5748594 and see if it's better than just writing it with a pen.

      So, how about the first option I offered, a numeric pad? Surely that's faster than handwriting?

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    4. Re:Overstatement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, how about the first option I offered, a numeric pad? Surely that's faster than handwriting?

      Of course, and that's why most devices are using virtual keyboards and the pen has died out.

  8. Why Innovate? by jgtg32a · · Score: 1

    When you can wait for others to do so and then copy what works.

  9. rip-offs by pydev · · Score: 2, Informative

    ClearType had plenty of prior art, so I don't think it counts as significant innovation.

    TabletPC wasn't just a "me too" project, Microsoft actually actively sabotaged their competitors to drive them out of the market and then tried to grab the market for themselves (and failed).

    So, if these are the kinds of "promising innovative technologies" that fail at Microsoft, let's just all say "good riddance".

    1. Re:rip-offs by Antiocheian · · Score: 1

      ClearType had plenty of prior art, so I don't think it counts as significant innovation.

      What prior art ?

      TabletPC wasn't just a "me too" project, Microsoft actually actively sabotaged their competitors to drive them out of the market and then tried to grab the market for themselves (and failed).

      What are you talking about ?

      So, if these are the kinds of "promising innovative technologies" that fail at Microsoft, let's just all say "good riddance".

      And finally, who is "all" ?

    2. Re:rip-offs by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In many ways whether they are 'rip-offs' doesn't matter in this context. What matters is that infighting at Microsoft prevented them from leveraging these technologies and actually making a product that people want. If Balmer really wanted to change this culture of infighting, then he has everything to do so, the problem he either doesn't care or doesn't want do what is needed.

      Microsoft has plenty of potential, but it needs to put these smart minds in place and tell them that its not the department that counts, but the company. Everyone within the company should take the ideas within the company and use them to do something useful.

      --
      Jumpstart the tartan drive.
    3. Re:rip-offs by sconeu · · Score: 3, Informative

      TabletPC wasn't just a "me too" project, Microsoft actually actively sabotaged their competitors to drive them out of the market and then tried to grab the market for themselves (and failed).

      What are you talking about ?

      Go! Computer.

      Read Startup: A Silicon Valley Adventure.

      Granted, it's a touch biased because the author was the founder/CEO of Go!, but it still shows how MS sabotaged competitors.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    4. Re:rip-offs by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1, Insightful

      ClearType had plenty of prior art, so I don't think it counts as significant innovation.

      Like what?

      Font smoothing had been done before, but nothing that made use of subpixel rendering. At least, not to the best of my knowledge... please correct me with a citation. (Or, alternatively, stop spreading bullcrap when you have no citation. Thank you.)

    5. Re:rip-offs by Entropy2016 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Subpixel rendering was invited by IBM in 1988. Windows just brought it to public attention. Furthermore, Mac OS X had subpixel rendering. OS X Server 1.0 was released in 1999, and Mac OS 10.0 "cheetah" was released in March 2001. Windows XP was released in October 2001.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subpixel_rendering
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_XP

      You've been corrected with a citation. Please stop spreading bullcrap. Thank you.

    6. Re:rip-offs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5341153.html

    7. Re:rip-offs by grouchomarxist · · Score: 1

      This was previously discussed on /., many years back.

      You can easily look it up on the wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subpixel_rendering#History /. isn't wikipedia, you don't need to have a citation, you can easily google these things yourself.

    8. Re:rip-offs by BillX · · Score: 1
      --
      Caveat Emptor is not a business model.
    9. Re:rip-offs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People who ask for "citations" on SlashDot need to learn how a discussion forum is different than Wikipedia.

      [citation needed]

    10. Re:rip-offs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least, not to the best of my knowledge...

      You know, even though you work for Microsoft and your search engine sucks, you could still use Google:

      here

      Since you seem to be incapable of following links, here's one of the links:

      here.

    11. Re:rip-offs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Flat-out vicious owning, Blakey Rat should probably not show his face on this site again.

    12. Re:rip-offs by pydev · · Score: 1

      In many ways whether they are 'rip-offs' doesn't matter in this context

      Well, yes, it kind of does: if an idea is unsuccessful and you rip it off, chances are you're going to fail with it as well.

      Actually subpixel rendering has been successful: everybody is using it. But it wasn't a big business because it was effectively public domain.

      Tablets failed back then because of cost, battery life, and weight. Microsoft would have failed with tablets even if their software didn't suck (which it did). Tablets may succeed now not because of Apple, but because finally the cost and weight work out.

      If Balmer really wanted to change this culture of infighting,

      The infighting at Microsoft simply doesn't matter. Microsoft makes its money like toilet paper and toothpaste companies: they provide mediocre commodity products. They don't need to innovate as long as they don't screw up too badly and market things right.

      Microsoft has plenty of potential, but it needs to put these smart minds in place

      Who are you kidding? Nobody with a money-making idea and half a brain is going to hand it over to corporate management; they are going to leave and found a startup. Microsoft should just deal with it, just like other tech companies.

      (Microsoft Research still has a purpose, but it's not to create new technologies for products.)

  10. losing market share in high end laptop ? by godrik · · Score: 1

    I haven't RTFA but I dont feel microsoft is losing market share in high end laptops... Linux on laptop is mainly provided on netbooks which I won't call high end laptop.

    1. Re:losing market share in high end laptop ? by zonky · · Score: 1

      Perhaps they're losing group to OSX?

    2. Re:losing market share in high end laptop ? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      http://www.betanews.com/joewilcox/article/Apple-has-91-of-market-for-1000-PCs-says-NPD/1248313624

      Not just laptops but all high end computers. Sure, some of the blame lies with the hardware manufacturers too but a lot of it is Microsoft.

    3. Re:losing market share in high end laptop ? by dangitman · · Score: 0

      I wasn't aware that Microsoft even sold laptops.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    4. Re:losing market share in high end laptop ? by JustNiz · · Score: 2, Informative

      Dunno what _you_ mean by high-end computers, but of the top 500 super computers, 446 run some flavour of linux, only 5 run a Microsoft OS.

      Reference:
      http://www.top500.org/stats/list/34/osfam

    5. Re:losing market share in high end laptop ? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Since you wasted a portion of your life with that silly, pedantic nitpick, the least I can do is correct myself.

      Not just laptops but all high end personal computers. Now, do you feel better?

    6. Re:losing market share in high end laptop ? by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

      Guess you missed the news.

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    7. Re:losing market share in high end laptop ? by dangitman · · Score: 1

      So, where are the Microsoft laptops? They are selling other manufacturer's laptops, not their own.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    8. Re:losing market share in high end laptop ? by soupd · · Score: 1

      I wondered this. I'm a Mac user and I see a lot of Macs but they are mostly the base-level MacBooks - hardly high-end.

    9. Re:losing market share in high end laptop ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but you can get a high end PC for less than a $1000. I'm talking Core i7/Phenom II systems with plenty of ram, high end graphics, and things like that. It would be more accurate to say Apple has 91% of the overly pricy PC market.

  11. I'd partly agree ... by JustNiz · · Score: 2, Interesting

    >> "Microsoft has become a clumsy, uncompetitive innovator"

    I'd agree with clumsy and uncompetitve, but innovator? lol. Sorry no.

    Microsoft hasn't innovated anything truly new in decades, except maybe the marketing dept changing a few colour schemes or finding new ways to screw customers.

    In fact can anyone think of anything technically innovative that Microsoft ever put their name on, that wasn't originally bought, copied, 'embraced', assimilated, or blatantly stolen from some other company? I can't.

    1. Re:I'd partly agree ... by debrain · · Score: 1

      In fact can anyone think of anything technically innovative that Microsoft ever put their name on, that wasn't originally bought, copied, 'embraced', assimilated, or blatantly stolen from some other company? I can't.

      For those wanting a reference, the article "Microsoft, the Innovator?", Mar. 2001 by David Wheeler would seem to agree with your assertion, as does Microsoft: Hall of Innovation (not original link - original article seems to have been taken down). Both generally accord with my personal recollection.

    2. Re:I'd partly agree ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      To name a couple...
      C#
      MSSQL

      Microsoft produces some amazing and refined technology in key areas especially when the top people (Anders Hejlsberg, Jim Gray) in their field are running these programs with unfettered control.

    3. Re:I'd partly agree ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      COM/Active-X and COM+ were innovative. Sure they borrowed a lot from DCE and CORBA, but then Apple borrowed a lot from Xerox PARC to build the Mac, and from Amazon for the iPad.

      That example perhaps also shows why Microsoft's senior management team is so cautious - when you invent an entire infrastructure in your development labs, there are many things that you won't get right the first or second time, and you'll be stuck supporting your mistakes for backwards compatibility. There will be embarrassing moments, as when the Quicken CEO called a press conference telling people not to use Active-X for security reasons. You might end up with an architecture where "you can't get there from here". It's much easier to learn from a competitor's good ideas and mistakes, as Microsoft did with the successor to COM.

    4. Re:I'd partly agree ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would ActiveX count as Innovation, in the sense of innovating on the ways that external parties could DESTROY your computer?

    5. Re:I'd partly agree ... by heffrey · · Score: 1

      So what? They aren't in the business of doing innovation. They are polishers. So are Apple for what it's worth. You don't have to innovate to be successful. What is so important about innovation?

    6. Re:I'd partly agree ... by kjart · · Score: 1

      I'd agree with clumsy and uncompetitve, but innovator? lol. Sorry no.

      Microsoft hasn't innovated anything truly new in decades, except maybe the marketing dept changing a few colour schemes or finding new ways to screw customers.

      In fact can anyone think of anything technically innovative that Microsoft ever put their name on, that wasn't originally bought, copied, 'embraced', assimilated, or blatantly stolen from some other company? I can't.

      Everyone seems to agree that Microsoft isn't an innovator, so who is?

    7. Re:I'd partly agree ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Other than Xerox PARC (that gave us the GUI, Ethernet, laser printing, etc), name any other company that hasn't done the same? Apple is as guilty, if not more so than Microsoft. They didn't invent the GUI, or the Mouse. They didn't invent the MP3 player, or the Smart phone. They didn't invent the touch screen. They didn't invent the Laptop or the Tablet form-factor, etc, etc, the list goes on and on. They did, however invent Firewire - I'll give them that.

    8. Re:I'd partly agree ... by foqn1bo · · Score: 1

      C#? .Net?

    9. Re:I'd partly agree ... by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Everyone seems to agree that Microsoft isn't an innovator, so who is?

      You're not going to get a fair answer to that question on Slashdot.

      I mean, Apple completely stole Time Machine from Microsoft's already-implemented Shadow Copy feature, were they derided as copy-cats? No. But Microsoft uses a transparency effect in Aero just similar to a transparency effect in OS X, and suddenly there's huge posters accusing Microsoft of being nothing but a copy machine.

      To actually answer the question, Microsoft hasn't innovated anything truly new in decades? I'd say the Office 2007 Ribbon interface is certainly something truly new*. I'd say that the fact that Firefox 4's UI looks a hell of a lot like Internet Explorer 8's UI probably means something. (To be fair, it might just mean both of them cribbed from Google. But that's still something. :) Fast user switching was in Windows before OS X or Linux had it. (If Linux has it now?)

      In the Enterprise, there's Sharepoint, which isn't a completely new idea, but combines several existing ideas in a very useful fashion. There's Microsoft's dominance in data processing technologies with their OLAP tools. (Actually, I just Googled that and it looks like they bought that from another company-- oops.)

      Looking at a different area... I'd certainly say Xbox Live was innovative in many ways. I'd say putting a HD inside a game console was a pretty innovative idea, as was the entire concept of Xbox Live Arcade (especially since all the competitors in that space have ripped it off.) And what about the Arc Mouse for laptops? That thing's pretty damned slick and innovative. There's the Surface table/technology.

      In short, Microsoft might not be the most innovative company in the world (although who is?) But don't pretend they aren't doing anything, either-- you're only deluding yourself.

      * Of course at this point the Slashdotter chimes in with "the Ribbon sucks! I hate the Ribbon! It takes 46 years to figure out how to save a file now! etc!" That misses the point that the Ribbon is, in fact, new.

    10. Re:I'd partly agree ... by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      Microsoft didnt invent SQL, MSSQL is just another SQL server. no innovation here.
      C#.. that would be microsoft's copy of Java, just differenet enough to avoid blatant plagiarism claims. I'll give you that C# is somewhat more C++ish, however Bjarne Stroustrup invented C++, not Microsoft, so yet another copy basically.

    11. Re:I'd partly agree ... by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      Microsoft settled a suit with Wang Labs over patent infringement code portions of OLE which is also the heart of Microsoft's ActiveX

    12. Re:I'd partly agree ... by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      I'm just responding to the original quote that stated that Microsoft are innovators. I completely realise that you don't have to innovate to be successful. Microsoft prove it. However I disagree that innovation isn't important.
      I'd personally prefer to work at a company that recognises intrisic value in actually coming up with something new and not just rehashing and re-marketing others ideas. But then I'm an engineer not an accountant.

    13. Re:I'd partly agree ... by Rudeboy777 · · Score: 1

      Java copies that came very late to the game.

      --

      From hell's heart I fstab at /dev/hdc

    14. Re:I'd partly agree ... by bth · · Score: 1
    15. Re:I'd partly agree ... by gyrogeerloose · · Score: 1

      To name a couple... C#

      IIRC, C# is the result of an embrace-extend-extinquish of Sun's Java. From the Wikipedia article:

      James Gosling, who created the Java programming language in 1994, and Billy Joy, a co-founder of Sun Microsystems, the proprietor of Java, called C# an "imitation" of Java; Gosling further claimed that "[C# is] sort of Java with reliability, productivity and security deleted."

      MSSQL

      SQL Server is based on code that Microsoft purchased from Sybase in 1988

      Microsoft produces some amazing and refined technology in key areas especially when the top people (Anders Hejlsberg, Jim Gray) in their field are running these programs with unfettered control.

      That may very well be true but neither one of the examples you put forth shows it.

      --
      This ain't rocket surgery.
    16. Re:I'd partly agree ... by JustNiz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Everything you've credited as Microsoft innovations amount to little more than tiny marketing tweaks. I mean the ribbon interface is just a different menubar layout. Hardly earthshattering is it?

      Shadow copy has been almost standard practice in the server world way before Microsoft ever did it. Its basically how RAID came about.

      >> Fast user switching was in Windows before OS X or Linux had it.

      Umm nope. Linux has always supported virtual terminals. You can have multple concurrent sessions under different users going on and switch between them without logging in and out at all. Actually Microsoft's Fast user switching appears to be just a kludge intended to address problems caused by limited thinking/poor performance/poor design in other areas. Hardly innovation is it?

      >> I'd say putting a HD inside a game console was a pretty innovative idea,
      I beleive it was acutally Sony who did it first with the PS2 but reagardless, innovative? really? Given the Xbox is already just a locked-down PC in a gaming case? adding a hard drive is innovative? wow.

      Arc Mouse? I'm not ever going to believe that just slightly changing the shape of a mouse is true innovation. I mean it still has the same buttons, wheel etc.

      I'll give you the surface table as being innovative. Well I would if it was an actual product people could really buy.

    17. Re:I'd partly agree ... by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1, Informative

      I mean the ribbon interface is just a different menubar layout.

      No, it's not. Try actually using it.

      Shadow copy has been almost standard practice in the server world way before Microsoft ever did it.

      No, it hasn't. Novell had an undelete function, which is a lot closer than your RAID example. If you had cited that, I'd have been more impressed... but it's still not equivalent to Shadow Copy. (And RAID? Seriously? Do you even know what Shadow Copy *is*?)

      Umm nope. Linux has always supported virtual terminals. You can have multple concurrent sessions under different users going on and switch between them without logging in and out at all.

      Fair enough; though I've never seen a Linux distro with that option enabled.

      I beleive it was acutally Sony who did it first with the PS2 but reagardless, innovative?

      The PS2 HD expansion came out long after the Xbox was already popular.

      Arc Mouse? I'm not ever going to believe that just slightly changing the shape of a mouse is true innovation.

      The fact that it folds is the innovative part. Do you have any familiarity with these products at all? So far you've been wrong on pretty much every detail...

      The only assertion you've made that *may* be right is the one about fast user switching in Linux, but since I've never seen that feature enabled on any of the Linux distros I've used, and your poor track record, I'm inclined to call BS on that as well.

      Well I would if it was an actual product people could really buy.

      It is. It's B2B, but what's stopping you from buying the "actual product" right now? Nothing. Hell, our company owns two of them... how did we get them? We bought them from Microsoft.

      All that aside, fine: tell me what you consider an innovative product? Give me an example.

    18. Re:I'd partly agree ... by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, if Microsoft had ever decided to start filing patents for their business innovations, they would have won hands down. There is a reason Microsoft is so common in the enterprise, their understanding of business is matched by no one. They run a sharp ship, from a business perspective. Too bad about that tech, though.

      --
      Qxe4
    19. Re:I'd partly agree ... by am+2k · · Score: 1

      Java?

    20. Re:I'd partly agree ... by am+2k · · Score: 1

      Hmm what about Surface?

    21. Re:I'd partly agree ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Fair enough; though I've never seen a Linux distro with that option enabled.

      You're confused. This isn't multiple X11 sessions. This is multiple console logins. Alt F1, F2, F3... I have not seen a single Linux distro with this disabled (can it even be disabled?). Then again, this isn't unique to Linux. UNIX has been doing it for years.

    22. Re:I'd partly agree ... by MrCrassic · · Score: 1

      Innovation != invention.

    23. Re:I'd partly agree ... by devent · · Score: 2, Informative

      The only assertion you've made that *may* be right is the one about fast user switching in Linux, but since I've never seen that feature enabled on any of the Linux distros I've used, and your poor track record, I'm inclined to call BS on that as well.

      It's enabled on every Linux distribution. For example Kubuntu Karmic, go to the menu, leave, and there is switch user. Same thing with Ubuntu, but I can't recall the Gnome layout. That was easy with KDE3 and it's easy with KDE4.

      Virtual terminals were always enabled, too, with the Ctrl+Alt+F1 to Fx keys.

      --
      http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
    24. Re:I'd partly agree ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And Java didn't borrow ideas from others either? *rolls eyes*

      SQL Server has gone through a rewrite at least once since the split from Sybase. Either way, it's a very fine product and has its own merits against other SQL servers on the market.

      I think the problem with Microsoft is that their product portfolio is so vast it's hard to integrate each other to have the same cool factor as Apple. But unlike the old days of NT 4/Win9x, Microsoft products these days usually generally just work, but that's a YMMV thing.

    25. Re:I'd partly agree ... by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 0, Troll

      Well, fair enough. Like I said, I would have taken the grandparent at face level if he hadn't been wrong in pretty much every other detail in his post.

      I guess my question then is, did Linux distros have this feature in the GUI before Windows XP came out? Or is it in the GUI now as a response to Windows XP?

      (I know this is the unpopular opinion on Slashdot, but I don't really care about the CLI implementation, since it's inaccessible to a high percentage of both users and applications. Only interested in the GUI implementation.)

    26. Re:I'd partly agree ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And Java didn't borrow ideas from others either? *rolls eyes*

      It's trivially true that every substantial work has borrowed from predecessors. Java in particular borrowed syntax from C, object orientation from C++, various design patterns from Smalltalk, the idea of bytecode from UCSD Pascal and others... but it was quite clearly a NEW thing that targeted a very different set of intended uses than the others. There were lots of novel ideas, such as the idea of a virtual machine running inside an Internet browser.

      Parts of C# and .Net are so close to Java that it's a wonder that Sun didn't sue for copyright infringement. The biggest difference seemed to be that the C# architect decided that the names of built-in classes and functions would be capitalized rather than lower case! It was simply Microsoft re-doing and re-spinning Java, improving a few bits and pieces given the advantage of hindsight. I've heard stories of the halls of Redmond being flooded with Java books in the late '90s as Microsofties desperately crammed to speed up their learning curve on the path Sun blazed.

      SQL Server has gone through a rewrite at least once since the split from Sybase. Either way, it's a very fine product

      That was an unequal deal, Sybase was in desperate financial straits and Microsoft, as always, was sitting on its monopoly hoard of cash. Microsoft forked the source code and naturally, with its much greater resources and marketing power, quickly became the "SQL Server" provider of choice.

      These are actually two very good examples of where Microsoft gained a leading product without innovating.

    27. Re:I'd partly agree ... by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      In fact can anyone think of anything technically innovative that Microsoft ever put their name on, that wasn't originally bought, copied, 'embraced', assimilated, or blatantly stolen from some other company? I can't.

      Can you highlight any "innovations" from anyone else, though, that aren't in a similar situation ?

    28. Re:I'd partly agree ... by RyuuzakiTetsuya · · Score: 1

      It's possible to be a bad innovator, particularly given Microsoft's track record. Just have a bunch of new ideas that are sort of crap.

      I'd call charging 100 bucks for a 802.11g adapter innovative, and I'd call it crap too.

      --
      Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
    29. Re:I'd partly agree ... by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Many would argue that C# is better than Java. But this is partly because they addressed some of the rough-spots of Java based on developers' experience with Java since it had been out for about a half decade.

      As far as SQL-Server, what specific features are being touted? One thing I liked about the pre-dot-net version of SQL-Server was that it's GUI for setting up batch tasks was pretty intuitive and practical. I found many features without having to dig in the manual. It was one of the few products that made me feel like MS had a chance. I have to give them kudos on that. However, the dot-net rework seems to have lost a lot of the things that made the prior one nice.
         

    30. Re:I'd partly agree ... by westyvw · · Score: 1

      WTF? CLI vs GUI? Forwarding X and virtual terminals are integral to the system. I am lost about how this fundemental design is inaccessible to applications, unless you are specifically speaking of audio, accelerated video, or certain other hardware devices. Used to be they were shortcut keys, but you could bind them to a GUI if that was your desire.

    31. Re:I'd partly agree ... by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      A lot of people hold the folk belief that the free market rewards original thinking and individuality, and that if you create the better mousetrap the world will beat a path to your door, and that the things that benefit the most of us will naturally be the most profitable and successful. (This folk wisdom is particularly pervasive in the US.)

      The idea that the most profitable and successful people just copy others and leverage their monopoly power/superior marketing to make money, and that the real profits in the economy are to be found with the Middle-Men, is actually very challenging to many people, particularly when they've been inculcated with dogmas about free enterprise and the self-interest of the one guiding the welfare of the whole.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    32. Re:I'd partly agree ... by pydev · · Score: 1

      [ribbon interface] No, it's not. Try actually using it.

      It is, however, pretty close to badly designed early user interfaces.

      Fair enough; though I've never seen a Linux distro with that option enabled.

      Every Linux distro since day 1 has had multiple virtual terminals. And almost since day 1, Linux has had screen. Almost as soon as graphics hardware allowed it, you could have multiple graphical login sessions. And for more than a decade, Linux had had VNC, which lets you create an unlimited number of simultaneous graphical sessions.

      The fact that it folds is the innovative part.

      Except that collapsible mice were invented before (e.g., patent 6304249, including the arc form). Microsoft Arc is at best a minor variation.

      Do you have any familiarity with these products at all? So far you've been wrong on pretty much every detail... [...] and your poor track record, I'm inclined to call BS on that as well.

      So far, you have gotten every single example of Microsoft innovation wrong.

      Tell us: do you work for Microsoft marketing and are you making deliberate misrepresentations, or are have you simply been living in Bill Gates's basement for the past 20 years and just have no clue of what's going on in industry?

    33. Re:I'd partly agree ... by pydev · · Score: 1

      All that aside, fine: tell me what you consider an innovative product? Give me an example.

      "Innovative" just means new in some sense. If you don't floss, dental floss may be an innovation for you, but that doesn't mean it's a new technology. Marketers like to confuse "new to the mass market" (innovative product) with "newly invented technology" (innovative technology).

      Making an "innovative product" often just requires a good business sense and some ruthlessness. Apple makes "innovative products" (because Jobs is ruthless and drives products to market quickly), but they don't create innovative technologies.

      Microsoft Research creates innovative technologies, but Microsoft as a company rarely creates innovative products.

    34. Re:I'd partly agree ... by pydev · · Score: 1

      I guess my question then is, did Linux distros have this feature in the GUI before Windows XP came out? Or is it in the GUI now as a response to Windows XP?

      Linux (and UNIX before it) has multiple users, they can log in, and each of them can run whatever graphical environment they want to on whatever graphics devices they have access to. It's been that way since even before Windows 1.0. It wasn't a "feature" that needed to be added, it was the logical consequence of having a well-designed multi-user system together with a well-designed GUI. And as soon as the hardware supported it, people created virtual graphics devices and you essentially got fast user switching. Later, people started adding some GUI elements to make this kind of switching easier.

      Look, you have been working for Microsoft since 2002 (I'm going by your home page), pretty much since you finished college. For the last few years, you've been working for Microsoft marketing. In your work, you have had no exposure to either research or non-Microsoft technologies. Much of the technology you comment on has existed since before you were born. Why do you feel compelled to make definitive-sounding statements on things you apparently know nothing about? Sounds to me like you're a victim of Dunning-Kruger.

    35. Re:I'd partly agree ... by heffrey · · Score: 1

      I didn't say that innovation wasn't important. Both innovation and polishing are also important.

      I'm happy for you that you work at a company that recognises intrinsic value. I hope that you get paid with real money and not intrinsic money!

      I don't understand why people think that making really good products that aren't wildly innovating is

      just rehashing and re-marketing others ideas

      . It's not easy to do it well. In fact it's bloody difficuly to do it well. And it certainly won't be done well by accountants - don't you think that the likes of Microsoft and Apple have an awful lot of very fine engineers on their books?

    36. Re:I'd partly agree ... by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      You still haven't given an example of a product you'd consider innovative.

      (Also I'm wondering how you reconcile, say, the Surface situation, where Microsoft Research created innovative Surface and it's become an innovative product. But that aside.)

      Look, the real problem is that the low level of discourse here means that anything you claim Microsoft innovated, even extremely clear-cut cases like the Office 2007 ribbon, people are going to piss all over. "That's not really innovative!" How do they justify that? Well, the word "innovative" has a vague definition, so fortunately they can... just change the definition to "if it came from Microsoft, it's not innovative."

      That's why I prefaced this whole thread with "you're never going to get a fair discussion of Microsoft innovation on Slashdot." Seems to be holding pretty true.

    37. Re:I'd partly agree ... by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Linux (and UNIX before it) has multiple users, they can log in, and each of them can run whatever graphical environment they want to on whatever graphics devices they have access to.

      So you're telling me that 5 different Linux users can be logged into a single workstation with a single screen at the same time, and seamlessly switch between accounts without ever logging off? I really get the sense people participating in this discussion don't know what Fast User Switching even is.

      I mean, obviously I know that a Linux/Unix mainframe can have multiple users logged in at once, each with their own complete terminal-- we're talking about multiple accounts sharing a single terminal on a single computer without having to log off/on to switch between them.

      The reason I don't count CLI-only features is:
      1) Since Fast User Switching is a GUI feature, a CLI-only version is same is *not* an equivalent feature. Even if the only "innovation" was making it work with a GUI, that's still an innovation.
      2) Features that only exist in a CLI are inaccessible to the vast majority of users.

      Note: you have to know WHAT THE FEATURE IS before you can address the point. Please keep that in mind before replying.

      a well-designed GUI

      Linux has a well-designed GUI? When did this happen?

      Look, you have been working for Microsoft since 2002 (I'm going by your home page), pretty much since you finished college.

      What the fuck homepage are you looking at? I worked at a hospital in 2002. Hell, the hospital didn't even use Microsoft products other than Windows-- it used Lotus Notes. Are you sure you're looking at the right page?

      I did work for Microsoft during two brief periods:

      1) I did testing for Microsoft Games for a few months as contract work with Volt. This was, what... 2006? I think? My name is on the credits of Gears of War, which came out in '06, so yah. Volt contractors wear orange badges at Microsoft.

      2) I've been working for a web marketing/technology company for the last 3.5 years or so-- for a brief portion of that time, our company had been purchased by Microsoft (so I became a Microsoft blue badge pretty much by accident/default). The division of the company I work in was then re-sold to a French holding company, so I'm no longer a Microsoft anything.

      Also: Microsoft took a completely hands-off approach to running our division, we were Microsoft employees in name-only... I've never been on the Microsoft health plan or retirement plan, for example. About the only Microsoft benefit we got is MS Store access. (And the various local businesses in the Seattle area that have discounts for MS employees, but that's not MS' doing.)

      For the last few years, you've been working for Microsoft marketing.

      I've never worked for Microsoft marketing. Ever.

      The company, the 500+ employee company, does have *some* people in it who do work for various Microsoft groups. I'm not in that role, and I've never worked with those groups, and I've never worked with Microsoft itself on anything.

      Can you provide a link to this page so I can figure out what you were looking at? You're getting a lot of wrong impressions from it.

      Why do you feel compelled to make definitive-sounding statements on things you apparently know nothing about?

      Because I'm not? Look, if I'm wrong, correct me, give me a cite. I'm fully aware that I don't understand everything in the world about everything in the world.

      My big problem is that I'm being correct by people who *clearly* don't know what they're talking about. The first respondent was telling me that the Arc Mouse wasn't innovative, but he didn't even know what it was! You're giving me a load of stuff about Linux, but you don't have anything in your post that illustrates that you understand what Fast User Switching is, or demonstrates that Linux' feature is equivalent. You also haven't addressed whether it appeared in Linux distros before Windows XP (innovative) or aft

    38. Re:I'd partly agree ... by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Actually, I didn't even work at the hospital yet in 2002, I was still working retail at OfficeMax.

      Please give me the link you were looking at, this is really driving me nuts. Either there's a site full of bullshit about my work history out there, or there's another person with my name at Microsoft (I doubt it), or you're the biggest asshole ever.

    39. Re:I'd partly agree ... by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      >> don't you think that the likes of Microsoft and Apple have an awful lot of very fine engineers on their books?

      I do... but I also think that all of Microsofts products are pretty crappy, especially given the large amount of good engineers they have. All of their products are horrible to use. Windows has been around for years and is their main cash cow but it still has many really nsaty behaviours. Its like Microsoft just do the bare minimum all the time, while Apple have shown its possible to really produce slick products that work well. Clearly there's something about Microsoft's internal culture that just doesn't capitalise on the people they hire.

    40. Re:I'd partly agree ... by JustNiz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      >> No, it's not. Try actually using it.

      Unfortunately I'm obliged to use it every day at work. I still don't think its innovative. In fact I think its crap.

      >> Do you even know what Shadow Copy *is*?
      Yes

      >> Fair enough; though I've never seen a Linux distro with that option enabled.

      Debian, Ubuntu and Fedora certainly do. Next time you're running Linux just hit alt-f1 through alt-f7. If you want to do it even easier just open a few terminal windows and do an su to different users inside each.

      >> All that aside, fine: tell me what you consider an innovative product? Give me an example.

      Ok. The web, Iphone's multitouch, Kindle's e-ink display, toyota prius (first mas-market hybrid) etc etc. Basically something that is the first to come up with a totally new product concept that changes the world, and that people actually want. Sorry but ribbons and a folding mouse just don't cut it, they're really just minor modifications of existing tech. And if thats all a company the size and resources of Microsoft can come up with, then it just underscores my point that they dont innovate.

    41. Re:I'd partly agree ... by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      I'm not so sure its hard to always win in business when you have a virtual monopoly and more wealth than a small country.

      >> Too bad about that tech, though.

      totally agree.

    42. Re:I'd partly agree ... by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      I can't say, I've never seen one. I dont even know where to go to see one.

    43. Re:I'd partly agree ... by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Not going to reply to the whole post right now, but can you explain how you think RAID and Shadow Copy have anything to do with each other?

    44. Re:I'd partly agree ... by pydev · · Score: 1

      So you're telling me that 5 different Linux users can be logged into a single workstation with a single screen at the same time, and seamlessly switch between accounts without ever logging off?

      Yes.

      Note: you have to know WHAT THE FEATURE IS before you can address the point. Please keep that in mind before replying.

      Yes, you should.

      Linux has a well-designed GUI? When did this happen?

      You should be more concerned with the question of whether Microsoft is ever going to have a well designed GUI.

      What the fuck homepage are you looking at? I worked at a hospital in 2002.

      http://www.linkedin.com/in/jamesschend

      Also: Microsoft took a completely hands-off approach to running our division

      Yeah, but do you have any qualifications or any experience in anything other than Microsoft Windows? Obviously not.

    45. Re:I'd partly agree ... by heffrey · · Score: 1

      Well, I think Microsoft have a pretty good track record. I regard both Windows client and Office as excellent. Windows server is darn good these days too.

      And as for Apple I think they never seem to get critical judgement. For example the iPod has been widely lauded as a master piece of UI design. But I find it dreadful to use. I'm sorry, but a wheel is not an effective input device for anything other than steering a car! The sad thing is that other companies copy them but they could do much better.

      But that's not the main point here. I have a big gripe with a lot of tech commentators who obsess about innovation when it seems to me to be only one part of what goes into good technology engineering.

    46. Re:I'd partly agree ... by pydev · · Score: 1

      My big problem is that I'm being correct by people who *clearly* don't know what they're talking about. The first respondent was telling me that the Arc Mouse wasn't innovative, but he didn't even know what it was!

      Well, I do, and I pointed you at a prior patent by HP:

      http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=dncIAAAAEBAJ&dq=collapsible+mouse

      You're giving me a load of stuff about Linux, but you don't have anything in your post that illustrates that you understand what Fast User Switching is, or demonstrates that Linux' feature is equivalent.

      What is there to "demonstrate"? Run any Linux distribution.

      I've had Windows, Linux, and Macs on my desk for the past 10 years. Can you say the same?

      You also haven't addressed whether it appeared in Linux distros before Windows XP (innovative) or after Windows XP (not innovative.)

      First of all, the first commercial OS I have seen with fast user switching was OS X. If anything, Microsoft copied it from Apple.

      And then--are you deaf or something? Yes, Linux developed this by itself, before XP or OS X because it just falls out of mechanisms Linux has had nearly since the beginning.

      Then to cap it off, you serve up a whole bunch of bullshit about my career that's clearly wrong. Basically resorting to a smear campaign.

      Your resume shows you to be just what you are: a 20 something who's grown up around Microsoft and with Microsoft technologies and who obviously has had no exposure to anything else.

      There's nothing wrong with that background, until you start making grandiose assertions about Microsoft innovation and get your computer history completely wrong. Do your homework, then come back.

    47. Re:I'd partly agree ... by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      http://www.linkedin.com/in/jamesschend

      WTF!?

      My job history there doesn't say I was at Microsoft in 2002! You just made-up a job history, one that has absolutely nothing to do with your source, and posted it here. Man, you really are a jackass. Fuck you. Seriously, fuck you.

      Yeah, but do you have any qualifications or any experience in anything other than Microsoft Windows?

      Yes. You'd know that if you actually read my LinkedIn profile, you lying sack of shit.

      Obviously not.

      Obviously so. I used Macs exclusively until 2002 or so when I joined the working world. After that, I used a Mac as my main desktop (and a Windows box for gaming) until about 2008, when I put the Mac in the garage and went Windows-only.

      Apart from that, I've tried Linux on several occasions: Redhat 6.2, Corel 1.0, a couple versions of Ubuntu (I can't remember which). I never stick with it very long, because I've yet to encounter a Linux install that supports all of the hardware of the computer I install it on-- usually what holds me up is power options, sleep/suspend/whatever.

      That said, I've administered a MUD on Linux. Although that's not Linux GUI experience, that's still a lot of Linux administration experience.

      Have I defended myself against your lies enough in this thread? I'll leave you be so you can maybe start lying about someone else for a change. Please eat a bag of shit and die in a fire, thank you.

    48. Re:I'd partly agree ... by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Your resume shows you to be just what you are: a 20 something who's grown up around Microsoft and with Microsoft technologies and who obviously has had no exposure to anything else.

      You didn't even read my resume. You said I worked at Microsoft in 2002. LIE. You said I worked for Microsoft marketing. LIE. You even linked to a page that reveals both of those "facts" are nothing but blatant lies. (Assuming you even bothered to find my resume *before* you started slinging the bullshit.)

      You are a lying piece of shit.

      I don't know why you'd even think I'd give a shit what you think after you smeared me like that.

    49. Re:I'd partly agree ... by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Indeed, maybe my point doesn't apply to modern Microsoft. However, at one time they were amazing. They didn't gain that virtual monopoly from nothing, and they sure didn't get it because of their pathetic marketing. They had some of the sharpest business tactics ever (although they weren't always the nicest tactics, there's a reason people hate Microsoft. Remember how they said all those good things about OS/2 when in practice they were trying to kill it as quickly as possible?)

      --
      Qxe4
    50. Re:I'd partly agree ... by pydev · · Score: 1

      You didn't even read my resume.

      No, I didn't "read" it (do you really think you are that interesting?). I just glanced over it and noticed that you worked for several years at Microsoft (including marketing) and that there is no evidence that you have ever worked with any other technologies since graduating from college.

      You are a lying piece of shit.

      I think we have established who is being dishonest here": it is you who keeps claiming that Microsoft invented this, that, and the other thing, despite numerous examples of prior art.

      I don't know why you'd even think I'd give a shit what you think after you smeared me like that.

      I don't give a damn what you think. As far as I'm concerned, you're both incompetent and dishonest. I just don't think the lies and misrepresentations from people like you should go unanswered.

    51. Re:I'd partly agree ... by pydev · · Score: 1

      and that there is no evidence that you have

      Ah, wait, sorry, you actually claim that you were a Linux administrator a while back. I just don't believe that you can have been a very good one.

    52. Re:I'd partly agree ... by pydev · · Score: 1

      Look, the pertinent fact here is that you worked for Microsoft, including Microsoft marketing. From that point on, all your credibility went out the window, particularly since every single claim about Microsoft innovation you have made has been disproven.

      If people want to know more about you or your resume, they shouldn't take my word for it, they can just follow the link to your resume.

    53. Re:I'd partly agree ... by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Look, the pertinent fact here is that you worked for Microsoft,

      I worked for a company that was acquired by Microsoft. I was never on Microsoft's payroll, never on Microsoft's health plan, and never on Microsoft's retirement plan. For all intents and purposes, I've never worked for Microsoft.

      Should I have quit when my company got acquired? Would that have made you happy?

      including Microsoft marketing

      That's a blatant lie. Stop lying about me.

      If people want to know more about you or your resume, they shouldn't take my word for it, they can just follow the link to your resume.

      The link to my resume only shows that you're a fucking liar. I encourage people to follow it.

    54. Re:I'd partly agree ... by QuietObserver · · Score: 1

      I've stopped reading his posts; they're almost all trolls and flaimbait that gets modded up for some reason. There are several others who are similar, but in my opinion, I feel he's one of the worst.

    55. Re:I'd partly agree ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, come on, read your own resume:

      Public Company; MSFT; Marketing and Advertising industry

      Public Company; 10,001 or more employees; MSFT; Computer Software industry

    56. Re:I'd partly agree ... by hughk · · Score: 1

      I think you have put your finger on it. Whilst it is clear that big O/S vendors have things like interoperability labs, it seems that few have an opportunity of just playing around there. If you work at such a place like Microsoft, you should have more than a nodding acquaintance with OS/X and Linux (and the other way around too).

      OTOH if a marketing person has even seen anything good come out of the competition, heaven forbid they should ever acknowledge this.

      --
      See my journal, I write things there
    57. Re:I'd partly agree ... by pydev · · Score: 1

      Just in the interest of accuracy: I did get the date wrong, in 2002 he was still working somewhere else; he worked for Microsoft twice after that. Also, his job in marketing was a technical job in a subsidiary.

      I'm not saying he's a marketing shill (I think MS marketing is a bit smarter than that), I just think he's inexperienced, and he simply won't stop making false claims even when presented with links, patents, and other information.

  12. I work there now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    I work at MS now. It's a great job for solid steady employment, but it's definitely not the place to go for innovation. Every department is run by high rolling MBA types, most of who were liberal arts majors in college, who go out on extravagant "off site" meetings where they wave around marketing studies to each other to determine the minimum amount of features and quality assurance to put into our products to maximize profit, as if running technology business were the same as running a 50's era factory. Making the product "better" or producing something you have pride in comes secondary, and no consideration is given to the second and third order effects their decisions have on the overall health of the company or its products.

    1. Re:I work there now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is this "every department" you speak of? It's a big company, so it might very well be true of the places you're exposed to. Mine (let me just say I'm "somewhere in Windows") is somebody with Dev background with engineering or computer science background all the way up to Sinofsky, who was a PM with also the same educational background. The parallel PM and Test orgs are similar (the GM is a former Dev).

      After that, there's only Ballmer, and contrary to slashdot belief he doesn't really meddle in things as far as I can tell.

      (speaking of which, I kind of get pissed off by the stereotypes about "high rolling MBA types" and the aspersions cast upon liberal arts majors, even though I myself have an engineering and physics background, but regardless it's just factually inaccurate here).

    2. Re:I work there now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I work at MS as well. What you say is definitely not the case in the Sinofsky org. All of the managers in the dev, test, and pm orgs come from a technical background. There are no product unit managers running fiefdoms of their own (in contrast to Vista). In fact, everyone marching in the same direction is the main point of Sinofsky's One Strategy book/blog.

      That said, there is plenty of internal competition, with different groups having different, and often conflicting big bets being made.

      If Sinofsky ever becomes the head of Microsoft (he's only one step away now), MS could very well become scary efficient and competitive again.

    3. Re:I work there now... by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      I believe this has a lot to do with MS being a publically traded company. A lot of innovators are privately held and don't have to kowtow to the market.

    4. Re:I work there now... by N1EY · · Score: 1

      I have to say two things. Running MS is the same as producing a factory in the 1950's. You are only off-step when you think that manufacturers had proper management in the 1950's. Aren't most of those manufacturers gone? Doesn't this tell you something? So clearly they are not similar. You are describing a "pull" conciousness versus the "push" mentality of most 1950's manufacturers. I have to think that it GM was "pulling" and decided to produce a decent product in the 1970's then we might never have seen Toyota's large market share; btw they do not have the large share in any European country.

    5. Re:I work there now... by eumaeus · · Score: 1

      The softly-stated context of TFA was how Apple, risen from the dead, Lo! this decade, has handed to Microsoft its ass. If I'm not mistaken, AAPL is a publicly traded company, whose stock has done right well despite the Fiscal End of the World. So you might want to re-think "innovators should be free from kowtowing to the market."

    6. Re:I work there now... by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      "So you might want to re-think "innovators should be free from kowtowing to the market."

      The two are not mutually exclusive so your argument holds no water, some companies go crap when they go public others do not. Also let's not forget apple was at one point in the toilet as well.

    7. Re:I work there now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hire from MS now. A lot of candidates are dropped because all they did was analogous to 50's factory work. An actual problem is a problem for many.

  13. Welcome to the real world, Microsoft. by FurryOne · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Microsoft has become the Company they scorned in the 90's... IBM. I wonder how many IBM'ers are laughing at Microsoft now that the shoe is on the other foot?

    1. Re:Welcome to the real world, Microsoft. by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Microsoft has become the Company they scorned in the 90's... IBM. I wonder how many IBM'ers are laughing at Microsoft now that the shoe is on the other foot?

      Considering how bloated IBM is, and how poor some of their flagship products are (Domino/Notes, specifically), I'd say in this case that the shoe is on *both* feet.

    2. Re:Welcome to the real world, Microsoft. by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      IBM has had many bad products over the years, but I wouldn't say Notes/Domino is one of them. A lot of people bitch about having to use Notes, but in my experience that comes down to three problems:

      1. Most people are mainly using Notes as an e-mail client, and as an e-mail client it has an unfamiliar, somewhat inconsistent interface that can be annoying to people who are accustomed to other programs. But Notes is actually a lot more than just e-mail, and enterprises don't buy it because they need e-mail. Technical types often have nothing to do with it except send e-mails (badly), but over on the sales and marketing side of the office, you'll often find people using shared calendaring, shared address books, and various custom databases. For this purpose, there's lots of compelling tech in Notes.
      2. Notes took a long time to get up to date with the look, feel, and features of (for example) modern Microsoft applications. Along the way, many Notes shops decided it wasn't really worth upgrading to the latest version of the client, because the current version did everything they needed. As a result, a lot of people who are familiar with Notes are really only familiar with an old version of the client, and a lot of those... eeeyyuuuggh.
      3. In the process of trimming their Notes budget, many organizations have let their Notes/Domino developers go. Either they retired, or changed jobs, or just moved on to more lucrative programming disciplines. As a result, a lot of the custom applications built on Domino suffer from bit rot, and many just plain don't work anymore. So they're there, running on a server, but nobody uses them and Notes is relegated to pretty much just being an e-mail client. (See point 1.)

      Taken on its own merits, however, Notes/Domino really is an innovative product, especially when you consider its long history. Parts of it seem a bit long in the tooth these days, but Notes still has lots of customers.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    3. Re:Welcome to the real world, Microsoft. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody at IBM can laugh at anything anymore...

    4. Re:Welcome to the real world, Microsoft. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder how many IBM'ers are laughing at Microsoft now that the shoe is on the other foot?

      Well, IBM isn't like that. For one- it does not have the cult of personality that characterizes the top leadership of most Silicon Valley companies .
      When you talk of Microsoft,Apple,Oracle,Sun or HP, their CEO/founders names quickly pop to mind - Gates/Ballmer, Jobs,Larry Ellison,Scott McNealy and Carly Fiorina.
      IBM the brand, or company, has always stood out larger than life than its founders. Even I never looked up or thought about who founded IBM till I started working there.
      And even now despite raking in the profits even during the recession, you don't see Sam Palmisano or even other senior execs beating their trumpets about their achievements.
      IBMers (atleast during the 21st century) keep a low profile and just keep on doing their jobs without making bombastic statements or sensationalism in the media.

    5. Re:Welcome to the real world, Microsoft. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microsoft has become the Company they scorned in the 90's... IBM. I wonder how many IBM'ers are laughing at Microsoft now that the shoe is on the other foot?

      I was waiting for somebody to point this out. I remember reading about this attitude from PC Magazine back in the early 90's and thinking to myself what comes around goes around.

  14. Gradual Decay by Greg+Hullender · · Score: 5, Interesting
    For a long time, Microsoft avoided the sort of sclerosis that seemed to affect big companies like IBM, AT&T, and Xerox. People attributed it to things like Microsoft's amazing decentralization of responsibility (in which each VP operates much like the CEO of his or her own startup) to the "Program Manager" role that separated the job of collecting requirements from the job of progamming them. But over the last decade, things seem to have gradually frozen up.

    I was at Microsoft at the same time Dick Brass was (and even reported into his organization for a while), so I'm going to beat up on him a little. (He won't mind.) We really wanted Tablet PC to be viable without a keyboard because it made such a difference in weight and size. There are a number of problems with operating such a device that way, but simply logging into it was a bear. Virtual keyboard and handwriting recognition solutions were both miserable, so we looked at biometrics. Now for a Tablet PC, the obvious biometric is signature verification, but one powerful individual in Dick Brass's organization had such a passion for fingerprint verification, that he effectively stopped us from even evaluating signature verification systems. Never mind that the fingerprint systems were extra hardware, stuck out the side, were easy to break off, etc. -- this individual was impervious to reason. Dick could have broken the logjam, but wouldn't get involved. Ultimately, we did nothing, and no serious keyboardless Tablet PCs were ever made (that I know of). This wasn't the only reason, but it was enough by itself.

    This pair of problems -- the non-technical guy who kills ideas and can't be reasoned with plus upper management that can't get involved -- seems to have become depressingly common across the whole company. Bright people get discouraged and leave. People who thrive on stifling other people stay.

    Where I do disagree with Dick is that I think a VP still has enough autonomy to make his/her own org successful. Microsoft's top management could still fix this problem if it consistently focused on getting and keeping the right VPs and eliminating the bad ones. I think the problem and the solution start and end in the same place.

    --Greg

    1. Re:Gradual Decay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Personally I wouldn't be able to use signature verification because my signature is so inconsistent. I can print my name in exactly the same way every time, but I cannot write in cursive at all.

    2. Re:Gradual Decay by Greg+Hullender · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Personally I wouldn't be able to use signature verification because my signature is so inconsistent. . . .

      You'd be surprised how many people say that, and yet when the software gets to see their dynamic signature (as points in time, not just an image), it easily finds the things that make their signature unique and clearly distinguishes it from anyone else's. Or so it appeared, anyway. As I said, we never really got to do a proper evaluation, but we did do enough to determine that a lot of our intuitions about the problem were simply wrong.

      --Greg

    3. Re:Gradual Decay by yuhong · · Score: 1

      This pair of problems -- the non-technical guy who kills ideas and can't be reasoned with plus upper management that can't get involved -- seems to have become depressingly common across the whole company.

      So why wouldn't upper management get involved? This is not the only problems MS had during the period, but...

    4. Re:Gradual Decay by digsbo · · Score: 1

      You make a good point about the power of a single executive to do serious harm to a project/team. I experienced this myself a few years back; a particular VP of "Business Development" required us to work with a favored vendor of his choosing. Despite any and all evidence to show they were neither interested in nor capable of delivering their part of the solution, we were strictly forbidden to solicit competitive proposals. I suspected kickbacks were part of the reason but could not prove it.

      This is a real weakness of many companies that have fallen into the common trap of allowing personal relationships at the executive level to dominate business decisions. A lot of short-term thinking based on ego and this year's bonus. Since the typical executive severance is what an engineer makes in two or more years, it's really not a problem for them to run companies into the ground and hop from enterprise to enterprise.

    5. Re:Gradual Decay by Greg+Hullender · · Score: 1
      Often the upper-management guys are non-technical and they're loath to get involved in any sort of dispute over a technical issue. When the dispute is between someone technical and someone non-technical, I'll at least say that I don't think they generally favor the non-technical guy; they just don't do anything.

      This doesn't happen all the time, and I can hardly speak for every group at Microsoft either. But it happens often enough in enough groups to be a problem. And it's my perception that it happens more and more.

      --Greg

    6. Re:Gradual Decay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This sounds like what I encountered at a large internet company that will remain nameless, at least in terms of highest level executives not policing their direct reports, or at least the intermediary managers not pushing them for resolution (for fear of losing/using political capital). The end result is that one groups bad decision cannot be corrected by someone in another group. When you add IP avarice or NIH syndrome into the mix, you have one F*ckedCompany.

    7. Re:Gradual Decay by clampolo · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      You'd be surprised how many people say that, and yet when the software gets to see their dynamic signature (as points in time, not just an image), it easily finds the things that make their signature unique and clearly distinguishes it from anyone else's.

      Good God!! You guys couldn't even get the DHCP in Vista to keep from knocking out my router. And you think someone would be stupid enough to buy a device that uses advanced signature recognition software to access it? I could just imagine forever losing access to my data because some stupid signature recognition algorithm had a bug.

      Just admit that Microsoft has very poor technical talent and poor innovation. While you were bitching and moaning about styluses, Apple realized people hate using a stylus and brought us touch screen interfaces.

    8. Re:Gradual Decay by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Or you feel into a common trap and it was confirmation bias.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    9. Re:Gradual Decay by geekoid · · Score: 1

      In the early 90s Gates was push for everyone one to need a smart card to access the computer. It would store all your credentials. It was his goal and prediction for it to happen by 2000. Even though Bill isn't really in charge, the idea of needing secure credentials in order to use a PC is still floating around. I wish they still had there 1000 year goals posted.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    10. Re:Gradual Decay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "...and no serious keyboardless Tablet PCs were ever made (that I know of)."

      You mean aside those made by/for Fujitsu, Motion Computing, Panasonic, HP, Toshiba and the like?

      The problem with tablet PCs wasn't the hardware or the software. It was charging a premium for a niche product with inferior hardware (compared to regular laptops). The product sold where price wasn't an issue and the tech was useful (industry for the most part).

    11. Re:Gradual Decay by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      the non-technical guy who kills ideas and can't be reasoned with

      aka "The Cage Match Negotiator". The term comes from the professional wrestling format where multiple wrestlers enter the cage, but only one exits victorious. The cage match negotiator will "win the argument" at any price and damn the torpedos. This type of person can be particularly destructive in a large organization where high level managers have almost unlimited power to alter or cancel projects at will.

    12. Re:Gradual Decay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good God!! You guys couldn't even get the DHCP in Vista to keep from knocking out my router. And you think someone would be stupid enough to buy a device that uses advanced signature recognition software to access it? I could just imagine forever losing access to my data because some stupid signature recognition algorithm had a bug.

      Do you also complain to the person recording the sound for a movie that the costumes were bad? There are tens of thousands of people working at Microsoft with different roles. Your rant just shows how mind numbingly stupid you are. Infact if you die right now the collective intelligence of the human species would rise.

      Just admit that Microsoft has very poor technical talent and poor innovation. While you were bitching and moaning about styluses, Apple realized people hate using a stylus and brought us touch screen interfaces.

      OK I admit... Microsoft sucks. I wonder if you'll hear that with your head so far up steve jobs' ass waiting for the next turd to drop. Apple invented touch screens? Hahahahahahahaha..

      Man you lemmings come up with new things to laugh at every day. No wonder everybody hates apple nerds...

    13. Re:Gradual Decay by cant_get_a_good_nick · · Score: 1

      Interesting point of view. Spolsky actually seemed to like that managers didn't mix in to day to day arguments [http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000072.html]

      what you're advocating is more of a steve jobs approach, where someone who has a singular vision of the final product weighs in at critical times.

    14. Re:Gradual Decay by Altus · · Score: 1

      Signature recognition vs thumb print is not a technical question. It is a design question and I mean that in the product sense. There is a reason you don't hear about this kind of thing at Apple.

      --

      "In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson

    15. Re:Gradual Decay by cheekyboy · · Score: 1

      Do what I did, take 10% longer on Task A, and work over time or do some work at home to implement your NEEDED feature on the sly on the side in secret.

      Then lie and say, "look I have prototyped solution X, and its cool, only took me 6 lunch breaks" .

      Then if they still deny you, slide the feature in and only enable it if _blah_debug registry is set to '42'.

      --
      Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
    16. Re:Gradual Decay by yuhong · · Score: 1

      A lot of short-term thinking based on ego and this year's bonus. Since the typical executive severance is what an engineer makes in two or more years, it's really not a problem for them to run companies into the ground and hop from enterprise to enterprise.

      Yea, homo economicus yet again. I had a Slashdot submission on this that got rejected.

    17. Re:Gradual Decay by yuhong · · Score: 1

      This is a real weakness of many companies that have fallen into the common trap of allowing personal relationships at the executive level to dominate business decisions.

      Well, business is personal, particularly these days, so...

  15. They don't deal with each other in good faith by astrashe · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The OpEd basically says that people inside the company screw each other over.

    That's always the way they seemed to me from the outside -- there was this sort of thug culture there in the 90's, when they'd threaten to cut some company's air supply if they didn't buckle under, etc. I mean, they just came across as obnoxious bullies. And it turns out that's what it's like on the inside.

    If they would just start dealing with everyone in good faith, it would do them a lot of good. Gates is a close friend of Warren Buffet, and Buffet knows the value of straight shooting as well as any business leader in the US. Microsoft should emulate Buffet on that point. You really can do well by doing good.

    But just to take a recent example, that business with selling patents off to a troll company that would use them to harass Linux users leaves a bad taste in people's mouths. It makes you want to use someone else's products if there's anyway you can.

    It must be a pretty depressing place to work.

    1. Re:They don't deal with each other in good faith by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Buffet knows the value of straight shooting as well as any business leader in the US. Microsoft should emulate Buffet on that point.

      Straight shooters get shot in the back by everyone around them at Microsoft.

      The trick is to wear bullet-proof back-armor, and save all mail.

      You really can do well by doing good.

      Not at Microsoft, you just let everyone know who the nice guy to take advantage of is.

    2. Re:They don't deal with each other in good faith by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But just to take a recent example, that business with selling patents off to a troll company that would use them to harass Linux users leaves a bad taste in people's mouths. It makes you want to use someone else's products if there's anyway you ca

      Its all right, you can loosen the tin foil hat now.

      Its always funny to see how anti-ms trolls can lap up any conspiracy theory as long as it fits their beliefs. Although I guess Slashdot editors only dish out the finest anti-ms spin so I suppose most neckbeards here have been trained to spin everything MS does as somehow attacking the gigantic 1% linux population...

      And groklaw.. boy, thats another insane asylum.

  16. ARGH!! by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

    Is it too much effort to spell properly even in the damn summary? Surely the story has "threatened" spelled correctly? I'm noticing more and more that spelling nowadays is like food seasoning - you just need to sprinkle some of it around, doesn't matter where it falls.

    (Wasn't there a story earlier this week about declining standards?)

    --
    I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
  17. American as apple pie by U8MyData · · Score: 3, Insightful

    And this notion suprises anyone? It's not unlike any large family where one kid stuffs a sock in anothers mouth, someone taddles on Johnny, or another dumps their sister from the wagon. Turf wars exist everywhere; the challenge is to minimize them. But... How do you do that when competition is king? Where wining the battle is put before what is good, just, or honorable? Just asking?

  18. Sounds pretty right to me by manekineko2 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm not so sure you're right that they should have put a lot of effort into something WinCE based for a tablet.

    Witness the response even the vaunted Apple received to its iPad. It's being widely criticized as being an over-sized iPod Touch. Will it be a huge success? If it were from any other company than Apple, I'd say no way. Even coming from Apple though, even if it succeeds, there's clearly a significant number of people out there looking for a full computer experience that's usable with touch or pen input.

    I actually got one not too long after they first came out, and it was a decent computer. It wasn't being hampered by processing power, running XP, but rather just the general quality of their tablet interactions, like the guy said. It really did feel like Office support was shoehorned in, which at the time I couldn't understand, but now makes more sense.

    His criticism actually strikes me as very apt, looking at Microsoft's often dysfunctionally bad product launches.

    Is there even an argument as to why their much-neglected Windows Home Server line should not be integrated with Windows Media Center? You've already got a box with a gigaton of storage in a box that's supposed to be left on at all times. And you're supposed to get a second PC to run Windows Media Center to DVR television programs? How many servers does Microsoft think each family wants in their house? Hint, the answer is that even one is pushing it. They control all elements of the software chain, yet the integration between WHS and Windows clients still leaves a ton to be desired. It feels like something that a 3rd party hacked together and released, not at all like Apple's all cylinders firing together smoothness.

    Or in another area, where is the total lack of integration between their Xbox division and all other divisions? People have been clamoring for some type of connectivity between Windows Mobile and their Xbox for ages, and they're just now getting around to doing it.

    His criticisms sound pretty plausible to me. For a company with its mitts in as many related fields as Microsoft is, the lack of cohesiveness between product divisions is striking.

    1. Re:Sounds pretty right to me by Mongoose+Disciple · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Witness the response even the vaunted Apple received to its iPad. It's being widely criticized as being an over-sized iPod Touch. Will it be a huge success? If it were from any other company than Apple, I'd say no way.

      I think this is correct and pretty key. Apple is in a position right now where any consumer electronic device they create has a buzz about it and draws interest regardless of how good it is or if they've even admitted it exists yet. If a Microsoft (or a no-name company) had released a product identical to the iPhone in Apple's place, I'm sure it wouldn't be a complete bust but it wouldn't have had the same kind of frothy early adoption.

      I'm curious to see how long they can keep it going.

    2. Re:Sounds pretty right to me by larry+bagina · · Score: 1

      the ipad won't be available for a couple months and even then it may be another year before the possibilities are more fully explored. It is just a big iPhone, but at the same time, it isn't. Yeah, you can surf the internet while you take a shit or read a book, but I can picture a lot of business uses that are a lot more exciting. iWorks is there. The Omni group will be rewriting all their applications. There will undoubtably be creative audio visual apps.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    3. Re:Sounds pretty right to me by Post-O-Matron · · Score: 1

      I'm curious to see how long they can keep it going.

      Until they screw up.

    4. Re:Sounds pretty right to me by evil_aar0n · · Score: 1

      I'd say as long as they keep producing products that fill a need and do so very well. That they're stylish is a bonus.

      --
      Truth, Justice. Or the American Way.
    5. Re:Sounds pretty right to me by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      I'm curious to see how long they can keep it going.

      My bet is right up until Steve Job's new liver gives out.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
  19. Clippy! by garyisabusyguy · · Score: 4, Funny

    'nuf said

    --
    Wherever You Go, There You Are
    1. Re:Clippy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everybody always forgets Microsoft BOB!

    2. Re:Clippy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      RAGE.

  20. MS eats own dogfood by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From TFA:

    Internal competition is common at great companies. It can be wisely encouraged to force ideas to compete. The problem comes when the competition becomes uncontrolled and destructive. At Microsoft, it has created a dysfunctional corporate culture in which the big established groups are allowed to prey upon emerging teams, belittle their efforts, compete unfairly against them for resources, and over time hector them out of existence.

    Looks like they have the same predatorial culture internally than what we see when MS is dealing with theirs "partners".

  21. Microsoft innovation? What innovation by okshaw · · Score: 0, Troll

    Microsoft doesn't innovate. I can't think of a single Microsoft product that was invented at Microsoft. They copy the inventions of other companies, and use cross-subsidization and OS lock-ins to push thir product to the top.

  22. Achieved their goals by wfolta · · Score: 1

    I think Microsoft achieved their goals. Their main emphasis has always seemed to be leveraging their current monopoly to create other monopolies. The only innovation I remember them making was to invent the office suite, which put their better-but-single-property competitors heads in vices. (And leveraged their insider knowledge from their first monopoly.)

    Sure, Microsoft has a lot of very smart people working for them, and no doubt they have very interesting things in their laboratories. BUT the corporate goal has always been something akin to "Windows everywhere" and the entire company has worked towards that end. MS Tablets did not stumble because of political infighting, they stumbled because they ran MS's desktop property, using their desktop metaphor.

    They may have failed to be considered an innovative company. They may have carried their external turf war mentality turn inwards. They may have stumbled on small devices because they wanted Windows Everywhere. But they certainly succeeded where they wanted to: OS monopoly, browser monopoly, office suite monopoly. (Jobs') Apple has a different goal and seems to be succeeding -- or at least threatening to succeed -- rather admirably.

  23. I would guess... by jav1231 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    I would guess it goes something like this:
    Programmer: "Oh Hi, Mr. Balmer! Hey, I thought you might like this cool innovation we're working on for the next Windows!"
    Balmer: "rrRrRRRRAAARRRRRRR!" (throws chair)

    1. Re:I would guess... by keeboo · · Score: 3, Funny

      Programmer: "Oh Hi, Mr. Balmer! Hey, I thought you might like this cool innovation we're working on for the next Windows!"

      It's not "programmer", it's "developer" (the man likes that word).

    2. Re:I would guess... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS

      *Throws a chair*

      *Throws a chair*

      *Throws a chair*

      *Throws a chair*

    3. Re:I would guess... by steelfood · · Score: 1

      It rolls off the chair better.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
  24. Corporate structure. by v(*_*)vvvv · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It is my understanding that it is common belief and practice to motivate employees by creating a competitive environment. But a lot of companies take this to mean "within the company". Well, if you create a win lose situation, there will always be losers, and if it is all happening inside the company, you're forcing everyone to concentrate on fighting with one another, and inflicting harm to other parts of the company. In biology, this would be a disease.

    And in any great competition, you will always have your dirty players, your cheaters, and those who thrive at politics and manipulating the minds of those around them. This is a lot of wasted energy that otherwise could be put towards improving something or creating value within the business. Not to mention, true craftsmen thrive on isolation and focus, and are easily slain with swords. That is why you should never pit your sales department (soldiers) with your dev department (architects), because if you've hired the right people your sales department will always win.

    At the end of the day, it is up to the "parent" to know what they are doing, and to put up the walls that help channel energy in all the right directions. Soldiers go outside the company to fight their wars. Developers just sit back and fight deadlines.

    If you do compete, compete with your competitors. If you do have internal competitions, make sure no one loses. You can make it a win-win, or just a single win, situation, like rewards for certain targets. But never leave room for open politics or cat fighting within departments or between employees. Just create a total dictatorship where there is one leader who knows what they are doing, and is responsible for everyone else. Democracies may allow everyone to stand equally, but they are the worst at getting anything done. And no one needs to be equal in the workplace.

    1. Re:Corporate structure. by rabtech · · Score: 1

      It doesn't always take a competition; we know it as "Not Invented Here Syndrome". Even when there isn't a competition internally, other departments will still oppose you because they weren't the ones to come up with the idea. Eliminating that sort of thing requires a massive push from the top for better leadership throughout the organization and rare is the CxO/VP that has that kind of head for business, vision for leadership, and political clout to pull off the change without getting quashed.

      --
      Natural != (nontoxic || beneficial)
  25. Uh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Whence cometh Brittany Spears...

  26. Software Darwinism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    I once knew a guy who worked at Microsoft, and after his stock made him enough money to no longer have to worry about bills, he left so he could focus on what he enjoyed. One thing he told me that many people don't understand about Microsoft is that the company *wants* its teams to treat each other as competitive threats, because it allows a sort of "software Darwinism" - his words not mine - to take place. As a result, he said that teams don't tend to work each each other unless there is a clear net benefit for them, because their jobs - and thus their ability to feed their families, etc - is on the line otherwise. That also means they tend to want to work on "safe" products.

    1. Re:Software Darwinism by Alioth · · Score: 1

      That explains a lot about the abombination that is the Win32 API - it always felt like it was designed by two dozen different teams who never spoke to each other. I guess that there must be at least a kernel of truth to that supposition.

  27. Official response from MS by cf18 · · Score: 5, Informative
    1. Re:Official response from MS by flanders123 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      From the Response:

      And in response to Dick’s comment about Tablets and Office, I’ll simply point to this product called OneNote that was essentially created for the Tablet and is a key part of Office today

      Tablet Team: Wow, Office Team, thanks. OneNote! Wow! What say you toss in Works and Clippy and we'll get out of your hair. What do you think?

      Office Team: Enjoy the OneNote. And wash my car.

    2. Re:Official response from MS by tranman · · Score: 1

      Do you seriously believe that guy's PR? Innovation at scale? Yes, the rage of customers stamping their feet in anger has to measure on the Richter scale before Microsoft makes a change. How much do you want to bet that the next 5 windows mobile devices will try to be a better Iphone?

    3. Re:Official response from MS by kraksmoka · · Score: 1

      Right, so innovative that a 2nd fiddle video game system is a good substitute for plowing what likely amounted to a cool Billion dollars worth of shareholders' money and decade worth of expectations into a dysfunctional tablet division that they dissolved for the world's own good. I used a friend's Toshiba tablet and it was lame as hell. The iPad looks like a gamechanger of a device already... Microsloth, just pack it in . . . .

      --
      "You never want a serious crisis to go to waste." - Rahm Emanuel
  28. 10 year old compute had 1.5% of the power. by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1

    Guys dont forget the effect of Moore's law. 10 years is 6 * 18 months ago. Computers were 1/(2^6) as powerful as they are today. 2^6=64, Hence the computers had just 1.5% of the computing power of today's computer. To do signature or handwriting analysis, you simply did not have the power. Facebook could not have existed in a dial up AOL connectivity era. Just have some historical perspective. The tablet PC dreamt up by Dick Brass would have just sucked. Or he could claim he was ahead of the time. Anyway think about it.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:10 year old compute had 1.5% of the power. by auLucifer · · Score: 1

      Perhaps they would have been able to use the resources better? Knowing the limitations allows people to find better ways to complete their tasks. Plus if the RnD was the best and brightest they would have easily gotten over that barrier
      As for power, the iPad has 1ghz arm chip which is apparently enough for the most demanding of tasks they envisage in this devices generation. In 2001 there was a 1.2ghz laptop available (http://reviews.cnet.com/laptops/dell-latitude-c400-mobile/1707-3121_7-8135430.html?tag=mncol;lst). Sure computers today are a lot more powerful then 10 years ago but you don't need the best of the best in a hand held device. If people needed the best of the best then we wouldn't even have laptops and everyone would still be tethered to their desks.

      --
      If I was witty I'd put something funny here but, as it stands, I am not and have just wasted seconds of your life
    2. Re:10 year old compute had 1.5% of the power. by Ukab+the+Great · · Score: 1

      The tablet PC dreamt up by Dick Brass would have just sucked.

      Make your own joke.

  29. Yeahbut everything would be perfect by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

    If they'd just agreed to modify the Office applications so they understood handwriting.

     

    --
    Deleted
  30. They shoulda made YOU the CEO by Colin+Smith · · Score: 0, Troll

    marketing studies to each other to determine the minimum amount of features and quality assurance to put into our products to maximize profit, as if running technology business were the same as running a 50's era factory.

    Clearly you could run Microsoft better. More profit, bigger margins, larger market share etc etc etc.

     

    --
    Deleted
    1. Re:They shoulda made YOU the CEO by geekoid · · Score: 1

      All he is saying is the internal goal in inconsistent with the long term goals of the company.

      Ans yes, I could run MS better.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  31. Hate to break it to you but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Microsoft has consistently released shoddy product and has done so since long before it employed any fabled "liberal arts major MBAs".

    1. Re:Hate to break it to you but... by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Microsoft has consistently released shoddy product and has done so since long before it employed any fabled "liberal arts major MBAs".

      Yeah, they replaced the poker whizzes.
           

  32. Large company syndrome at work. by ErichTheRed · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This happens a lot with any large company where revenue is dependent on keeping a few cash cow products generating income. First, you don't want to do anything to upset what's making you money, so you start really playing it safe. Vista was a horrible flop, but Microsoft spent a ton of time and money polishing it up and rolling out Windows 7. But imagine Microsoft throwing out all the 20 years of Windows backward compatibility and totally starting over. It won't happen until the product absolutely cannot be supported anymore. Windows 7 including "XP mode" is a really good example - they desparately want to avoid angering enterprise customers who are still running custom software that relies on Windows 98's quirks 12 years later. Heck, there's still a couple of places I know running the core of their business using a 16-bit screen scraper app and an equally-old terminal emulator!

    Second, you have the organizational problem. Microsoft is huge, so huge that enterprise customers need a Technical Account Manager just to handle their support calls and make sure they can find resources. I know they have a Research arm, but I can't see how an individual developer's idea might possibly make it high enough up the food chain to make much difference. To make things worse, the management structure is probably so deep within product lines that multiple product VPs are clamoring for Ballmer's attention. These guys are fighting for their jobs, so I imagine there's tons of poltics involved. I would bet that early-90's Microsoft was a lot more collaborative.

    I definitely see Microsoft progressing towards IBM and Oracle territory as far as products go. They'll deliver nice safe products for business, but the consumer will be left out. XBox is another story...but just look at the mess that is Zune!

    I've actually worked for large organizations, both IT and non-IT. (I haven't worked for a software company.) I can tell you that smaller organizations are better, up to a point. Once you get too small, say in the medium business category, you have to deal personally with a potentially psychopathic owner or CEO. If they're benevolent, it's great, but most entrepreneur-y types are nuts to begin with, and tend to treat employees like "the help." But once you grow too big, such that communication becomes a problem and politics start entering into every decision, the situation can be just as bad.

    But yeah, I can't see Microsoft creating another "category-killer" product with their current structure. My dealings with them as a Premier Support customer have been interesting....it takes them several days to admit that a problem exists, log it, and "officially" tell me that they're working on a hotfix.

    I got to see this first-hand in my last job. The place started off like a startup, got big, and all of a sudden people were doing the CYA thing that I've seen all over the large-business world. Everyone was way too panicked about getting chewed out by our crazy CIO to be focused on doing good work.

  33. management failure by timmarhy · · Score: 1
    This kind of thing always comes about due to management failing to give the company direction.

    if left alone, employee's (especially smart ones like the type working at MS) will try feather their own nests. this is what leads to the infighting to begin with. this is where a good manager will say no to things, and keep the ship heading in the right direction.

    I've seen it at a place i worked where a manager literally mis managed a department into the ground. he hired duds, failed to get rid of them during probation, then promoted more useless people. he didn't standup to people on his team when they were causing problems. it was all because he tried to find the path of least resistence rather then making the hard choices.

    --
    If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
  34. We can see it happening to the XB360 in realtime. by DdJ · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This idea that some groups at MSFT sabotage others? Looks to me like we can see it happening to the XBox 360 right now.

    The main culprits are Zune and (maybe) Silverlight.

    All of the video stuff on the XB360, movie rentals and such, just got changed from a "built into the firmware" thing to a separate app. A separate app that requires registration, isn't as convenient to use, won't let you queue up video downloads from over the web anymore, and has Zune branding. Does anyone think the initiative behind that started by thinking about how to make the box better for consumers? Really? Come on.

    And as I understand it, there's been a beefed up Silverlight engine deployed recently, with the result that there are now full video advertisements in "blades" (or whatever they're called now) all over the recent "no it's not the Sony XMB" NXE user interface.

    Look at what's going on. It looks like Someone who's not from within the successful XBox team has decided to Tamper With Things. And things are getting worse. Right at the time when Sony is getting better.

    It's not all gone yet, but I don't like the direction it's heading. And the clues seem to indicate that the author of the linked-to article has put their finger on the core problem.

  35. media player? by roc97007 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Could this be why media player still doesn't let me control subtitles and alternate audio tracks, when free players have for ages?

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    1. Re:media player? by Arker · · Score: 1

      Speaking of Media Player, here's an interesting little thing I noticed.

      (This is on XP Pro, if you are running newer Windows try whatever the equivelant would be and report the results by all means.)

      Install VLC. Disable access to the Windows Media Player. (The closest you can get to actually uninstalling it - add remove programs - set program access and defaults - custom - scroll down to windows media player - uncheck "enable access to this program.) Make sure VLC is set as the default and access is allowed instead.

      Now insert a DVD. Pull up "my computer" and double-click the DVD (or right click and choose the first option, and this is assuming like me you have exterminated "autoplay" already - if not you probably get to skip everything but inserting the DVD.

      Up comes Windows Media Player, which proceeds to steal focus, ignore all input, and phone home before finally deciding something is missing and popping up another focus-stealing window to inform you it isnt actually capable of playing the DVD anyway.

      That remove access button doesnt work any better for windows media player than it does for IE now does it?

      Now go back and right click the DVD again, scroll down the list, you arent looking for 'play' but 'play with VLC.' So not only is the program still accessible, it remains the default shell option even after supposedly being disabled.

      I have been using MS products since the early 80s and I never expected "innovation" out of them. It's not lack of "innovation" that makes me less than a fan - it's three decades of this sort of "innovation" - innovative ways to arrogantly turn my own computer against me.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    2. Re:media player? by TropicalCoder · · Score: 1

      Out of curiosity, I tried your experiment, though I don't think I followed your instructions exactly. I installed the latest VLC and allowed it to have all the file extensions that would normally belong to Windows Media Player. Then I inserted a DVD, and up popped a window with two options - "Play with VLC", or "Play with Windows Media Player" - in that order. I chose Play with VLC, and VLC played it. At no point did Windows Media Player ever pop up. Now this was on Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit version.

      I had an experience many years ago that made me never trust Windows Media Player ever since. This was way back in the days before Lame and FFMPG when everybody used the Fraunhoffer mp3 codec. It shipped with many different things, and once it was installed by some software you bought, that codec remained available to you for the use of other software ever after. Then for a time, you could buy the codec pretty cheap directly from the Fraunhoffer site for a couple of dollars. I think then everybody was using this codec, perhaps without even knowing it. It was ubiquitous. Then one fine day Microsoft bought the rights to that codec from Fraunhoffer, and created a special version that would only run under the control of Microsoft software. Now shortly after, when you got an automatic update for the Windows Media Player version that installed and used their new Fraunhoffer mp3 codec, it would uninstall your codec. Next time you went to run some software that depended on that, it simply would no longer be able to decode mp3. If you had an installer for your old Fraunhoffer codec, you could simply reinstall it, but every new update for the Windows Media Player would uninstall it again. There was no technical reason or justification for Windows Media Player needing to uninstall that codec. It was simply a grab by Microsoft to try to gain control over mp3. I don't know why they never got sanctioned or sued over that. They certainly had no business uninstalling a user's personal software. However, they never did succeed in gaining control over mp3.

    3. Re:media player? by Arker · · Score: 1

      It sounds like windows 7 is improved, but only very slightly, relative the atrocious behaviour of XP. But you are right, you didnt really follow directions so the cases arent quite the same.

      From a quick google search it appears that somewhere there is a panel that allows you to "turn off" WMP and IE, but it sounds like all this actually does is prevent the normal GUI for them from preloading. Basically what "removing access" does in XP. The whole thing is still there as is obvious every time I get out certain install disks. Even though IE is supposed to be disabled, it pops right up at an invisible request from a poorly behaved program every time.

      If Win7 is allowing another media player to take the top spot in the explorer context menu that is a very small improvement though.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    4. Re:media player? by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      So despite the fact that you did all in your power to make VLC the default player, Microsoft still feels the need to nag you with a popup in the vein of "Are you sure you don't want to use Media Player?". And this is improvement how?

      Mart

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
  36. Top Down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's all about top down. If you have people at the top that inspire and care, then it shows below.

    Granted, Jobs is a dick. But he does have vision and does appreciate thinking out of the box. Gates and Ballmer totally lack this - they 100% lack vision. They're business dudes in and out and software (from Gates' early days of the Homebrew club) was always a means to get them money. Not a means to create something great or useful or transformative. Microsoft never changed the music biz or cell phone biz, etc. When money is secondary, then great things can be accomplished. When the biz dudes run the show, forget it.

    While I do not like MS products at all (not well designed, buggy, 'me-too' syndrome), I thought they, for once, nailed it with the Courier. A UI that made sense for what it was and a completely different way of working. Of course it will never see the light of day. Too bad because I think a lot of people would have bought it and it would be a serious challenger to the iPad.

    Rolling Stone had an interview with Jobs where he basically said that the goal wasn't to be the richest man in the cemetery. Couldn't agree more. In my mind, nothing innovating or original comes out of MS and ever makes it to product. Probably never will either.

    1. Re:Top Down by rtb61 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There biggest problem seems to be the management method used when new ideas are presented. They apparently aggressively challenge any new idea and force the presenter to actively defend their stance and provide fiscal justifications. This of course immediately cuts off a lot of the more creative less combative types who simply more to another company with those ideas. The creates an environment where it isn't the best ideas that win simply an environment where the best liars win, only to see those lies fail as actual products.

      The most adamant proof of M$'s failure in the nurturing and promotion of creativity, the abject failure of MSN to generate a profit, a content portal that is totally dependent on creativity and the ability of staff to effectively express themselves. All they seem to be able to do is let Ballmer come up with some new whacked idea from rebranding the search component of a web portal, whilst the portal continues to bleed capital ('BING' seriously WTF).

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    2. Re:Top Down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      That is one part of it. In large corporations each department gets a budget and is competing against other departments. Those departments have pecking orders, play favorites.

      I've seen it happen a few times. Many years ago a friend in work built as a side project a web based office suite. She wrote the core of it in under a month. Demonstrated it to management. They loved it. However another manager had a team of 15 working on the exact project for the last couple of months. The team got taken off him and he was assigned to her and 3 others. He was so pissed it was incredible. The whole project got created in under 3 months, worked perfectly and the manager basically killed it at that point. It never shipped.

      I had a similar issue where I wrote an app as a bet with a friend that would basically replace a department of people. It was also killed for obvious reasons. The real kicker was a few months later another department got a couple of million budget to write the exact same thing. I got the pleasure of demo'ing my application to them. :/

      That is just two examples, I've seen numerous pettiness happening between managers killing projects and careers at the expense of the corporation.

    3. Re:Top Down by ThePromenader · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I couldn't agree more. Most everything is run by the 'accounting guys' these days - and people like they are only interested in / can only understand a product that is already marketed and making money - an innovation-killing attitude for sure. How is it possible for one with a new idea to 'prove' that it will sell - in a way that profit-uber-alles guys can understand and accept? A task well-nigh impossible.

      Steve Jobs reigns over all in Apple, but his position as 'unique innovation creator/guide' there is also a danger: if he doesn't forward an apprentice/heir soon, his company will be in danger both on the innovation and shareholder fronts.

      --

      No, no sig. Really.

      ThePromenader
    4. Re:Top Down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ('BING' seriously WTF).

      More evidence the culture there continues from the time I worked there. It's said that BING is a recursive acronym meaning "Bing Is Not Google". Pathetic and bothersome. Years ago, the big internal push was "Sun Down", meaning down with Sun Microsystems. I was part of MCS and was instructed to criticize Sun at every turn, make sure customers were aware of the memory parity bit problem they had, etc. We were given talking points to memorize. We were told to criticize Linux if we heard about it at a customer site and to inform management of its inroads there. And it didn't end there. They were so pre-occupied internally about what the other guys were doing, they couldn't concentrate on their own technology.
      Here's an anecdote: new hires are sent to Redmond campus for something called MS 101, and orientation of sorts. One night there was a cruise and we were tasked with coming up with a pro-Microsoft jingle or skit. A group of particularly spirited sales folks on the boat came up with a derogatory song about Larry Ellison sung to the tune of Copa Cabana by Barry Manilow. *_facepalm_*

      My point is, I'm not at all surprised by the article based on what I've seen. The one thing they don't do is put their nose to the grindstone and innovate. They look around and are always trying to copy or catch up with those who are. I wonder what their internal slogans are these days? Bad Apple? F'ing Kill Google (FKG)? Open Sores?

      The whole culture there was really kind of pathetic for this reason.

    5. Re:Top Down by yuhong · · Score: 1

      Most everything is run by the 'accounting guys' these days - and people like they are only interested in / can only understand a product that is already marketed and making money - an innovation-killing attitude for sure. How is it possible for one with a new idea to 'prove' that it will sell - in a way that profit-uber-alles guys can understand and accept? A task well-nigh impossible.

      Yep, it is another mess altogether: http://slashdot.org/submission/1159318/The-problems-of-the-shareholder-value-ideology

  37. They all write the same stupid article..... by LibertineR · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Every single disgruntled former Microsoftie who's pet project got canned, writes this same fucked up article. The same false 'innovation' premise, bla bla fuckin bla.....

    First, lets establish that Microsoft (I am a former Microsoft employee myself) couldn't give a crap about innovating, its an exercise best left to those unconcerned about profits. Those of us who succeeded at Microsoft understood that our job was how to create/copy/simulate/obfuscate in the name of market leadership.

    Its so tiring to see so many still willing to attach these lofty goals like 'innovation' to what is a really simple business challenge. Nobody (well a few, but they always leave to write these crappy articles) takes their Microsoft check to the bank feeling guilty and with less self-esteem because their high-marketshare product line isnt innovating the fuck out of technology.

    Remember the line about the bear: "I dont have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun you"?

    That is how it is at Microsoft. I worked in the Exchange group, and later Visual Studio. Our job was NOT to come up with mind-blowing shit that glowed in the dark, it was to build products that give people reason to buy ours instead of THEIR's. Exchange never had to be slick, it just had to be better than Lotus Notes. SIMPLE.

    Was Exchange innovative? Fuck no. Was it better than NOTES? Fuck yes.

    That is the software business. We were never about design awards, and "oh we are so forward thinking", and all that shit.

    Microsoft is, was, and always will be about profit for shareholders, bitches. Nothing more, nothing less.

    1. Re:They all write the same stupid article..... by al3 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Microsoft is, was, and always will be about profit for shareholders...

      I think that's the definition of a corporation.

    2. Re:They all write the same stupid article..... by PCM2 · · Score: 0, Troll

      That is how it is at Microsoft. I worked in the Exchange group, and later Visual Studio. Our job was NOT to come up with mind-blowing shit that glowed in the dark, it was to build products that give people reason to buy ours instead of THEIR's. Exchange never had to be slick, it just had to be better than Lotus Notes. SIMPLE.

      Was Exchange innovative? Fuck no. Was it better than NOTES? Fuck yes.

      It seems strange to me that people keep repeating this mantra that Microsoft never innovates, when all around us we see open source projects struggling to duplicate stuff that Microsoft has already done. If Windows Networking isn't innovative, why write Samba? Oh, because everybody uses Windows Networking, and we want Linux to be able to exist on those networks and talk to those servers. But why? Why would everybody use Windows Networking if it has no advantages over any other form of networking anywhere? Did Microsoft come and hold a gun to our heads and say, "You won't use NetWare anymore. From now on you will use Windows Networking." And we all just nodded and said, "Yes, master?" That's not how it happened, and you all know it. Did Microsoft invent networking? Hell no. Did it invent a form of networking that people were willing to use instead of NetWare? It sure did. So how did it manage that, if it innovated nothing? It wouldn't matter if Microsoft gave Windows Networking away for free if it wouldn't do what people needed it to do.

      I think part of the problem is that a lot of people seem to think "innovation" means "creating mind-blowing shit that glows in the dark." That's an extremely exaggerated interpretation of the word. According to Merriam-Webster, "innovation" means either "the introduction of something new" or "a new idea, method, or device." That's it. That's pretty much all.

      So if Lotus Notes doesn't have a spell checker in its e-mail client, and Microsoft builds a spell checker into Outlook, that's innovation. Did Microsoft invent spell checkers? No. Did it invent e-mail clients? No. Did it invent a version of Outlook that includes a spell checker? Yes. That's innovation. Not innovation like Isaac Newton, but plain old ordinary innovation like companies do all the time, one little feature at a time, one day at a time. Do some of those innovations suck? Probably. Are some of Microsoft's innovations actually steps backwards? Maybe. But Microsoft keeps changing things in its software that introduce things you haven't had before with each new version, and that's what they mean when they talk about innovation. Not missions to the Moon. Just innovation.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    3. Re:They all write the same stupid article..... by SheeEttin · · Score: 1

      Only problem with that approach is that while you're not innovating, your competitors probably are, which usually makes them better than you again, leaving you to to play eternal catch-up-and-do-marginally-better.

    4. Re:They all write the same stupid article..... by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      Except for one minor problem: If you cannot (or will not) be innovative then you must at least do whatever it is that you are doing extremely well. If you do not, some open source project is going to roll up from behind, like a mighty juggernaut with a product years in the making, that absolutely flatten you on quality, reliability and speed; even though, like your own product, it is not particularly innovative. It is especially difficult to compete with a quality competitor when their price is free.

    5. Re:They all write the same stupid article..... by Red+Pointy+Tail · · Score: 1

      Maybe it is your sort of attitude (that is the way it works!!- stfu, loser! we are making tons of profit aren't we? we don't need great products, just need to be less painful than the rest!) that is contributing to the malaise.

    6. Re:They all write the same stupid article..... by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      It seems strange to me that people keep repeating this mantra that Microsoft never innovates, when all around us we see open source projects struggling to duplicate stuff that Microsoft has already done. If Windows Networking isn't innovative, why write Samba?

      If GNU iconv "struggles" to properly support EBCDIC, that doesn't necessarily imply that EBCDIC is "innovative." I'm sure Tridge would rather have spent his time doing a lot of other things than write samba, but people with Linux machines wanted to interoperate with Windows servers. It really wasn't about providing the features SMB does, nobody on Linux actually RUNS an SMB server unless they have to.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    7. Re:They all write the same stupid article..... by timmarhy · · Score: 2
      billion dollar profits, gee i wish i could fail as hard as MSFT.

      YOU FAIL.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    8. Re:They all write the same stupid article..... by PCM2 · · Score: 0, Troll

      If GNU iconv "struggles" to properly support EBCDIC, that doesn't necessarily imply that EBCDIC is "innovative." I'm sure Tridge would rather have spent his time doing a lot of other things than write samba, but people with Linux machines wanted to interoperate with Windows servers. It really wasn't about providing the features SMB does, nobody on Linux actually RUNS an SMB server unless they have to.

      I'm sure that's (mostly) true, but there are a whole ton of people who chose to run Windows servers, Active Directory and the whole 9, rather than running Linux servers. If there's nothing at all innovative about that product set, then why? Why would they do that? I'm not saying there's necessarily anything particularly innovative about the SMB protocol, but the products themselves must have something that makes people want to pay for them rather than running Linux. Some IT managers are probably just sheep, but a whole lot of them probably appreciate the innovations Microsoft made to make setting up and managing a network easier, or something. Like I said: It's not rocket science they're talking about here. "Innovation" simply means giving your customers something your competitors don't.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    9. Re:They all write the same stupid article..... by richlv · · Score: 1

      oh my. it would be SO awesome if new york times would print this, uncensored, as a response :)

      --
      Rich
    10. Re:They all write the same stupid article..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Although you make some interesting points, EVERY company is all about profit for shareholders. The only question is how to get there.

      I was never a big fan of Exchange. But if I were stuck with Notes, I would think differently.

      There is one big difference between MS now and MS of the 1980's. The original MS concept was a cheaper product, marketed to the companies who made decisions for everyone else. MS-DOS was cheaper than CP/M. Not better, just cheaper. MS BASIC interpreter was a cheapie workaround to circumvent the need for a compiler, linker, etc. Open source changed the rules of price competition, so MS is now all about incremental add-ons to maintain customer lock-in and justify the next upgrade.

    11. Re:They all write the same stupid article..... by seaton+carew · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And that, my friend, is the most eloquent argument I've read in a while for avoiding anything from Microsoft at all costs.
      Thank you for your honesty.

      No matter how much they might pretend otherwise, when a company's core value becomes "It's all about the shareholders; fuck the customers!" then there is very little incentive to purchase anything from them. Doesn't matter if it's cheap. Heck, doesn't matter if it's good.

      If your sole aim is to screw me, why would I even consider talking to you?

      --

      As technology accumulates, the hatred between people tends to decrease. - Steven Pinker
    12. Re:They all write the same stupid article..... by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      If there's nothing at all innovative about that product set, then why? Why would they do that?

      Interoperability. They don't want an SMB server, they just want to be able to open their files over the network. Think of it this way: the SMB spec is essentially a kind of DRM on file sharing. Same thing with OpenOffice and the .doc format -- OpenOffice doesn't implement the .doc format for people to actually use, since it's a terrible, underdocumented and messy standard, but it is provided so people can get in and out of OO into the hegemon MS Word.

      Being the only glazier in town doesn't mean you can go around breaking windows and calling it "innovation."

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    13. Re:They all write the same stupid article..... by PCM2 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      OpenOffice doesn't implement the .doc format for people to actually use, since it's a terrible, underdocumented and messy standard, but it is provided so people can get in and out of OO into the hegemon MS Word.

      OK, but as a guy who uses a word processor professionally pretty much every day, I can tell you that I don't stick with Word because of lock-in. I use it because OpenOffice is totally unacceptable to me, while Word is a really slick, full-featured word processor. If OpenOffice were as innovative as Word, I would use it, file formats be damned. Most of what I write could be saved in plain text, or at the very least HTML, without losing much. It's the tool itself that I prefer.

      Being the only glazier in town doesn't mean you can go around breaking windows and calling it "innovation."

      I don't understand the meaning of your statement in this context. Microsoft isn't breaking OpenOffice's windows. The closer analogy would be that Microsoft sells windows made of glass, and OpenOffice sells windows made of plastic. OpenOffice can demonstrate that its windows are technically superior -- they don't break, they don't rattle as much in the wind, they provide better insulation, and they're infused with a chemical that blocks UV radiation so the color doesn't fade on your framed antique Parisian theatre posters. And yet for some reason people still seem to want glass windows. In fact, almost everybody prefers to go with glass -- even though, on face value, plastic windows are the more modern, innovative product. So OpenOffice grudgingly agrees to sell glass windows, too. But selling glass windows is a real pain in the ass for OpenOffice, because the equipment used to make plastic windows is no good at all for working with glass, and Microsoft won't give OpenOffice a tour of its glassworks. And the whole thing is a real shame, because if they could both agree to just sell the same kind of windows it would be great... except for the small point that Microsoft is in the business of (no pun intended) selling windows, and it doesn't make sense for it to show its competitors all its tricks. So OpenOffice gets all mad and says, "But this is terrible for the people! In fifty years' time, at least half the windows people are buying now will be broken, because they're made of glass, and if they only bought plastic windows we could save countless billions on windows over the course of 50 years, and we wouldn't have to worry about how our windows will be preserved, and the world would be a much better place!" And Microsoft says, "People prefer glass windows." So, OK. Solve that problem for me.

      And, back to the original point ... why on Earth would people prefer this technology that's hundreds, if not thousands of years old? If Microsoft has just been sitting on its fat ass this whole time, doling out the same, old, boring glass windows, why are people such suckers? Economists will tell you that innovation is one of the main forces driving any market. And yet if, as people seem to be claiming, there has been no innovation in Microsoft's markets whatsoever, or Microsoft has been intentionally stifling innovation, how does the market keep growing?

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    14. Re:They all write the same stupid article..... by hughk · · Score: 1

      Oddly enough, it is usually the 'innovation' that I find is buggy and poorly implemented. Word works fine if you stay with simple and short documents. If you deal with 150+ page technical specs with embedded bits from the rest of the office suite, you find out how stable it really is - either crashing or consistently screwing up the output so that it looks nothing like what is on the screen.

      OO has its problems too, but I tend to use a mixture of the two to survive..

      --
      See my journal, I write things there
    15. Re:They all write the same stupid article..... by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      If you deal with 150+ page technical specs with embedded bits from the rest of the office suite, you find out how stable it really is - either crashing or consistently screwing up the output so that it looks nothing like what is on the screen.

      I can believe it. For a guy who writes for a living, my document demands are remarkably simple. Actually, if someone asked me to produce a document that big, I'd probably think, "Oh, so you'll want me to use LaTeX, right?" (Or at the very least, Framemaker.) The whole concept of a WYSIWYG word processor seems to have grown out of the need for a program for authoring memos, letters, reports, and other short documents. I think any word processor will start to break down once you get outside of that.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    16. Re:They all write the same stupid article..... by yuhong · · Score: 1

      Except that it never was true. I wrote a Slashdot submission about this, and a Reddit one too: http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/axwzw/the_problems_of_shareholder_value_and_agency/

  38. Tee hee by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hehe... dick-brass.

    "The name's Brass. Dick Brass." -- Brass, Dick

  39. I'll take that failure by LibertineR · · Score: 2, Informative

    6.7 Billion in profits in the last quarter.

  40. Microsoft was great in the '70s! by argent · · Score: 1

    M80, C80 and L80 were the gold standard on CP/M!

  41. MS rarely innovated by dzoey · · Score: 1

    The article's author is suffering from a major case of self-justification. I've been in this industry for a long time and Microsoft's been known for a lot of things, but innovation was never one of them. Good developer relations? Check. Finding a way acquire/copy good ideas and spread them widely? Check. Aggressive business practices? Check But I remember in the 80's and 90's that all the innovation that was added to Microsoft products was from acquisitions or feature copying from competitors. It was an interesting story about why the MS-tablet didn't take off, but my guess is that the hardware and wireless access hadn't matured yet, not that he got in a spat with the Office VP, who was probably correct in his assessment. Give Apple credit, yes they copied the Macintosh interface idea from Xerox, but they've put in some real innovative human factors improvements since then. MS picks and chooses which innovations to buy from smaller companies, rather than risk their own capital.

    --
    -- Everything is wonderful until you know something about it.
  42. rational ignorance by epine · · Score: 2, Informative

    About a year ago I had my Telus account switched to electronic billing. I tend to do my electronic banking in the wee hours. Half of my attempts to access my Telus account electronically resulted in text like this:

    Unfortunately, we were unable to process your request. Our site is currently experiencing technical difficulties. Please try again later or contact a TELUS Customer Service Representative at 666-6666. We apologize for any inconvenience.

    This was annoying, as the email notification does not include the balance owing. What I wanted was the email to contain an encrypted PDF of my paper statement so I never have to log onto their crappy web site. Nope, that's not possible.

    Finally I call up my innovation-loving Telus rep. to complain about these recurrent electronic account service outages. I refrained from pointing out that the telephone industry *invented* uptime in the first place and that their billing computers seem not to take a holiday in the wee hours every other night.

    I said if you can't send my billing details through email, then send me the paper bill as well until you figure out how to keep your electronic service online. To which the answer was "I can do that, but I'll first have to cancel your electronic billing".

    What? Logically incompatible? Or a return visit of my old Bell Canada nightmare?

    When Bell Canada first brought in DTMF dialing, they charged a low price for rotary dial phones, a higher price for DTMF phones, and the highest price of all for phones with keypads that dialed by clicking. Not for the phone itself, but for your monthly service, depending on the type of phone you chose to own. From their side, their equipment couldn't really tell the rotary dial clicks from the simulated clicks of a keypad phone, so this fee only applied if you were dumb enough to tell someone at Bell Canada that you owned the contraband device.

    The logic looked something like this: tone dialing is new and sexy, so we have to charge more for it. However, it costs us more to support the old analog dialing equipment, and we *want* the customers to move to the new technology, so we have to charge *even more* to customers who by sneaky means obtain the convenience of keypad dialing, while sticking it to us for charging more to access a system that actually costs us less to deliver.

    If Telus gave me combination billing (both paper and electronic) then as the customer, I'd have the best of both worlds: an electronic copy of my records when their system is working, and a paper backup when it isn't. This would cost Telus more and might encourage them to keep their electronic records system online more than a few dark hours a month so I eventually call back and cancel the paper.

    She asked me at the end of the call if her support had been helpful (clearly a mandatory call phase). I replied, "you've personally been very nice, but clearly your organization has created Byzantine rules that prevent you from offering me the sensible solution I requested". She hung up sounding sour as if my response had not been polite.

    Since then I've purchased an OCR scanner and I'm probably going back to paper billing. I can have searchable records of numbers called without the hassle of navigating the arbitrary rules of the world according to Telus.

    And arbitrarily they are, unless you group them under "clever ways to drill a hole in your pocket".

    From CRTC orders TELUS to rebate customers

    In November 2007, TELUS began charging close to half a million customers in Alberta and British Columbia a monthly network-access fee of $2.95. These customers had not signed up for a long-distance plan, either with TELUS or another company, and the charge applied even if they did not make long-distance calls or if they made long-distance calls using only dial-around long-distance services.

    The CRTC had to step in and bust their

  43. "The problem comes..." by jejones · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "...when the competition becomes uncontrolled and destructive." --TFA

    TFA gives examples such as the head of the Office team expressing his dislike of tablet computers by refusing to integrate Office with the tablet UI, or the fellow who would support ClearType, but only if the personnel who developed it were put under his management.

    I find this insight highly ironic. Hey, they were only emulating MS's behavior with respect to its competition, right?

  44. Welcome to incentives 101 by Kjella · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's always hard to find incentives that makes everybody pull in the right direction. For example, it's not that US companies don't want to think long term. But when employees think short term because they want to pass their performance evaluations, middle managers think short term of their quarterly bonus and executives think short term on the stock price and their stock options, then the result is that the company acts like short term is all that matters right up until it collapses in bankruptcy.

    The same is true for departments, people only act in the company's best interest if it's better to cooperate than to compete. Unprofitable units and business lines are cut all the times, you're safer as a moneymaker in a tanking company than a mediocre department in a booming company. You can still get axed or outsourced because they need to focus their business or increase their margins but nobody wants to put their head on the chopping block and hope they'll be spared for setting a good example. An indispensable worker is a liability, somehow the same rules don't apply for departments.

    Finally, it's not just different business units competing but even competing functions, like say the classic of the salesman who'll happily sell an overpromised and underestimated solution because his bonus depends on sales and not if it's actually a good deal for the company. But in defense of marketing, I've seen equally as bad examples where it seems engineering and QA has only cared about being on schedule and on budget and left the support function to pick up the tab. And even support departments that act more like anti-support departments to minimize support queues and rather kill sales because people are unhappy.

    With all due respect to software developers I've found that writing software is easy because you tell the computer and it just does. Granted, it'll crash or hang if you instruct it wrong and has no intelligence of its own, but it's nothing like all the ways people circumvent your intentions and exploit your incentives. Sometimes I wonder if great leadership is just keeping people from doing all the things they shouldn't be doing. Not that by using the word "just" I mean that it's easy, quite the opposite really. I think everyone here knows the output one man can have if he's motivated, challenged and reasonably pushed so he's neither stressed nor slacking. If you could keep ten thousand people in that state you'd be worth every cent of your CEO salary.

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    1. Re:Welcome to incentives 101 by argent · · Score: 1

      With all due respect to software developers I've found that writing software is easy because you tell the computer and it just does. Granted, it'll crash or hang if you instruct it wrong and has no intelligence of its own, but it's nothing like all the ways people circumvent your intentions and exploit your incentives.

      I suppose for the very small subset of commercial software where there's no user interface or the users are either (1) yourself or (2) people who think just like you do, that's true. A good part of writing software is trying to think of all the ways people are going to, through malice or foolishness, circumvent your intentions and shoot themselves in the foot... or worse, exploit your interfaces and compromise your customers security.

    2. Re:Welcome to incentives 101 by Clemsonuee · · Score: 1

      I totally agree. At a smaller company it is easier to find a way to get everyone to pull in the same direction. But when you are the size of a Microsoft there are too many divergent people with very different goals and outlooks. The only way a company like that can do great things is when it has a simple clear vision that everyone understand. In the 90's Microsoft had the vision of a computer running Windows on every desktop. Once they were successful and moved to maintaining their position instead of moving towards a clear goal they naturally began to drift. They also entered a large number of markets with what seems like less a vision of cohesion and more a sense of "Hey, people are making money there, we ought to try that." So Microsoft becomes less a single company that can move in one direction successfully, and more a Frankenstein's Monster of mismatched parts. Steve Jobs has a clear vision and he has Apple successfully executing it. If they lose that vision they will begin to drift again. This is an advantage of competition between companies. If one loses focus there is another to fly past them. It also helps keep companies focused on a small number of things they can do well rather than become a massive dystopian megacorp. It is the rare person that has the vision, energy, focus, and desire to lead a something large and be massively successful. Through most of history those people made their names with army's. In the modern era it is much more desireable and profitable to be that man in a large company rather than a military. Most CEO's don't have that vision; much less their VP's and middle managers. They don't have a vision for what to measure long term so instead they measure on last quarters numbers. If the CEO doesn't look past next quarter then the VP's can't, even if they have a vision, because they will not be around long enough for the long term. I've always found it easier to communicate with computers than people. They are logical and say exactly what they mean. Communicating with people and being sure you and the other person both are on the same page is vastly harder. I've found it is much harder work managing engineering work than doing it. And that is me face to face with people. Once you add layers to that it becomes even less clear. I work at a small company with little layers or management and I see how hard it is to get a clear message across the company and to keep people motivated. A great CEO is worth his or her weight in gold. Anything less than great is worth a lot less. Professional sports is a great example. A superstar in his sport is paid millions by his team a year. Peyton Manning made well over 10M this season. A guy on the Colts scout team was paid almost nothing. But they both are in the top two thousand or so players in the world. And sometimes players get millions of dollars for prior success and then stink to high heaven. I don't have a perfect answer to this, but an idea I've had is that stock options need to vest deep in the future, like 10-20 years in the future. It will at least remove an incentive to cheat the future for the present. It's not an answer on it's own, but I'm pretty sure it'd help.

    3. Re:Welcome to incentives 101 by yuhong · · Score: 1

      Yep, the problems of shareholder value and agency theory yet again. After my slashdot submission being rejected twice, I submitted it to the Reddit instead: http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/axwzw/the_problems_of_shareholder_value_and_agency/

  45. Adaptative political structure ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I actually like your image of micro-society inside companies (and salesmen as soldiers)

    But the point of the article was to find a way to foster innovation in a big company ...

    - Total dictatorship : very bad for fostering ideas, as the dictator will most likely kill any idea it doesn't understand ... but, sure, the best way to go fast somewhere (at least until its fundamental flaw, lack of liberty, is not acted upon by its citizens ... and that dictator's ideas don't bankrupt society for lack of technical inventiveness)

    - Democracy : as seen in present time, this system is inherently unstable, for those who are allowed to vote have no pre-requisite of knowledge (and hence will choose a project based on irrelevant characteristics)

    - Anarchy : ideal for fostering ideas, but produces no definite direction that the salesmen can act upon (since the ressources are not infinite, doomed to fail because of exhaustion of said ressources)

    - Tribal elders : kind of anarchy with a direction ... but unpractical for large enough societies/companies use

    Well, since all those systems have inherent flaws, why not try an hybrid approach :
    - Anarchy for the bubbling of ideas
    - Technician's democracy for the selection of ideas (those that select ideas ought to understand their merits)
    - Dictatorship rule for the practical results it provides (ressource allocation & side-departments coordination)
    - Tribal elders for the feedback mechanisms & actual project production (when a project's going bust, one ought to correct it) ... well ... sounds like a workable company ?

  46. Two words: Craig Mundie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The guy in charge of Microsoft's research and strategy thinks everybody on the Internet should have a license and this asshat thinks their problem is infighting? That company is seriously more f'd up than even I thought possible, and I'm damn good at thinking Microsoft is f'd up.

  47. What? by tjstork · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I don't recall their compilers and tools ever being more than mediocre.

    Microsoft BASIC was hands down the best BASIC to program a PC with in the early 1980s. It had real string arrays, and important string functions like left, mid, and right, that other Basic implementations simply lacked.

    Yes, TurboPascal and TurboC definitely stole the lead in tools from them, but the original TurboPascal has no linker and TurboC would be eclipsed with Visual C++, and after that the Visual Studio chain would gain a lead and remain the best all around IDE. Even now, the combination of Resharper + Visual C# is the best general purpose development story out there.

    I will say though, that Microsoft's obsession with C# does open them up. The Linux C++ story is getting to be pretty darned good. I'm having a rather dandy time with Eclipse on Ubuntu 9, and Linux has always had the lead for 64 bit C++ programming, and always will have it simply because they have a better mix of integer, long and pointer sizes than Windows, and the calling convention is faster.

    --
    This is my sig.
    1. Re:What? by earlymon · · Score: 1

      Microsoft BASIC was hands down the best BASIC to program a PC with in the early 1980s.

      That's true but incomplete.

      Microsoft BASIC was tied to the IBM-PC's ROM, as I recall. As soon as clones hit the scene, bringing PC prices down and opening the market through the increased consumption that resulted from the lower prices, it was GW-BASIC that ruled the roost. A minor point, as GW-BASIC was also from Microsoft, but an economically important one.

      That BASIC story was yet another in the long line of leveraged business strategies employed by Microsoft. This was usually, in my estimation, a combination of Microsoft's business acumen coupled with misjudgments by key competitors.

      MS/GW-BASIC - no different, in my opinion.

      Consider that MS-BASIC already had a large following first as AppleSoft (Microsoft's Apple ][ BASIC implementation), and later, as MS-BASIC for CP/M.

      However - near the time of the original PC, came first the Osborne 1 and then .... the Kaypro.

      The Kaypro was an absolutely wonderful CP/M platform, especially powerful because of it's included SBASIC from Topaz - now THAT was a *great* BASIC.

      And did Topaz take structured BASIC to the world of the PCs? Like so many other great CP/M products, they relied on the common sense of the marketing realizing that they could more and do it more cheaply and easily on a CP/M platform. (Remember - there were never the number of CP/M users to build that critical mass.)

      So - while MS was catapulting BASIC forward - Topaz did nothing.

      The inferior BASIC won - because no one else really came to the table to exploit the code base and skills of the previous generation of BASIC programmers.

      Anyway - that's how I recall it went down. I could be mistaken.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBASIC

      --
      Pathological kinda promises Path + Logical - but instead, you get stuck with pathetic.
    2. Re:What? by QuietObserver · · Score: 1

      Not exactly on topic, but not entirely irrelevant, is that MSBASIC had several absurd bugs, one of the most annoying being ASC("") returned an illegal quantity error instead of a 0, forcing code to include arguments like A=0: IF (A$"") THEN A = ASC(A$) instead of just A=ASC(A$). This particular bug was apparently programmed by Bill Gates himself (he is said to have programmed all the non-mathematic runtime 'stuff'; I wasn't able to find the source for this, but I remember reading it a few months back). So yes, MSBASIC was certainly inferior.

  48. But what does it mean? by westlake · · Score: 1

    'Microsoft has become a clumsy, uncompetitive innovator' and how 'it has lost share in Web browsers, high-end laptops and smartphones.

    What is a "high end" laptop?

    More importantly, what is the value of the high-end laptop to Microsoft?

    To the user?

    Microsoft sells the OS not the hardware.

    The decision whether the high-end is worth entering is for the manufactuer and the retailer.

    The most expensive laptop at Walmart.com is an $1800 HP - an i7 with 6 GB DDR3 RAM and Radeon 4830 video. Laser-etched Magnesium case. 64 bit Win 7 Home Premium.

    That strikes me as a perfectly plausible alternative to the MacBook Pro.

    IE8 is competitive.

    But the browser wars may no longer matter.

    H.264 has Mozilla tied up in knots.

    Meanwhile, hardware-accelerated H.264 video is in the Flash 10.1 Beta 2 player for Windows. Silverlight 4 will support protected H.264 content and Chrome.

    Users don't give a damn about standards - or ideology. They simply download the player and watch the movie.

  49. Some comments from the article by MrCrassic · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So...

    But the much more important question is why Microsoft, America’s most famous and prosperous technology company, no longer brings us the future

    Microsoft never really innovated per se; they mostly marketed and promoted lesser-known technologies (CP/M as DOS, OS/2 as Windows) and tweaked them heavily to make them business-friendly. Gates, Ballmer and crew got ridiculously lucky too, but that's another story (which predates me anyway).

    Good riddance if it fails.

    Not quite. Imagine if Apple came to the forefront. We'd all have to be running THEIR hardware and be completely subservient to their business model, which is secretive and limiting at best. Perhaps Apple would be even more draconian with competition out of the picture. At least I can install Windows on any PC and expect it to work; can't say the same for OS X (and don't count Hackintoshes either; they aren't supported!).

    It employs thousands of the smartest, most capable engineers in the world. More than any other firm, it made using computers both ubiquitous and affordable...Microsoft has become a clumsy, uncompetitive innovator. Its products are lampooned, often unfairly but sometimes with good reason.

    Same story for IBM, Intel et al. They each have a market which they completely dominate in (IBM in the mainframe and support space; Intel in the microprocessor space). At that point, they don't need to innovate unless they really want to...and if times get really tough and enough loopholes exist, those companies can buy out their competition (Microsoft/IBM) or steamroll them (Intel vs AMD).

    While Apple continues to gain market share in many products, Microsoft has lost share in Web browsers, high-end laptops and smartphones.

    But the key thing to keep in mind is that Microsoft's bread and butter isn't in the consumer space. Like IBM, Microsoft stays afloat by marketing mostly to the business sector, who not only has (much) more money to give, but is also much more resistant to change. In fact, Microsoft spends TONS and TONS of money figuring out how to best cater their business customers by running all sorts of research, field tests and such. (A good example of this is the Ribbon interface in Office 2007, which was the result of an academic study looking to figure out how people doing work interface with GUIs best.)

    Special attention should also be placed on Apple's main consumers. Where is one more likely to see iPhones and Macbooks: at a posh cafe in New York City or in a farm in Tulsa, OK? I'll make the postulation that the core of Apple's audience is young folk who want something simple, svelte and integral to their lifestyles. While there are certainly diehards and fanboys, many of those folks will jump to the "next big thing" just like they did from PCs to Macs (or regular smartphones to iPhones or whatever) just because it's big and happening. Sure, there are lots of youths in the US, but their buying power is unmatched to even a few of the top (or middle) companies on the Fortune 100.

    The article is an interesting read, but I think the author misses the business motive behind today's Microsoft. Back when Microsoft started (which, again, predates me), computers were constantly innovating. I'd even argue that computers were still innovations at that point, since Microsoft gained popularity at a time when computers were just starting to move from the mainframe room to the security's desk. I think the biggest mistake that Microsoft made was not paying enough attention to the importance of the Internet over the last few years. Sure, they'll be coming out with Office 2010 and Office web apps, and they already came out with Bing, but they are still playing catch up when they could've taken this space by storm years ago...

    1. Re:Some comments from the article by hughk · · Score: 1

      In fact, Microsoft spends TONS and TONS of money figuring out how to best cater their business customers by running all sorts of research, field tests and such. (A good example of this is the Ribbon interface in Office 2007, which was the result of an academic study looking to figure out how people doing work interface with GUIs best.)

      The delicious irony is that most of the major corps are still running Office 2K3 because the userbase finds 2K7 'confusing' and buggy (usually means its harder for them to find what they want). Personally I would love it if everyone upgraded to 2K7 because my laptop came with it and compatibility is a problem but they can't.

      --
      See my journal, I write things there
  50. Neither is best. by tjstork · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I would make the argument that its not cooperation or competition in a large company, but just autonomy that matters most. General Motors for years sought to tie all of its disparate car divisions that it acquired in the 1920s and 1930s into a single cohesive whole. By the time it was successful, they had created so many layers and bureacracies within the company, that the whole system was mired with inefficiency and red tape. Like, how long were many cars denied better engines, because Corvette "had to be" the fastest car.

    Eliminating functional overlap in multiple divisions seems more like a disaster that it is worth. Sure, GM might have had cost overlap with in its different car divisions, but, if each could sink or swim on its own, it would have been easier to drop one or grow one over the years, rather be locked into unrealistic production goals across the entire company in order to make all the red tape pay for itself. Even now, I don't know that bankrupt GM even gets this.

    Ah well.

    And now we have the same sort of crap at Microsoft. Exhibit A [for today], is LINQ vs other ORM efforts that Microsoft is working on in C#. LINQ is what, wildly popular, and it is also killed, largely because LINQ didn't come from the Visual Studio group, but from the SQL Server group. But there's others as well. I suspect that the continual and ongoing story of communications frameworks like WCF largely stems from intradepartmental rivalries and not really customer demand, and this goes all the way back.. like the whole COM fiasco the notion that everything must be COM within Windows (when obviously calling a DLL works pretty well for everything in Linux), came from the Office group and not from the Windows group, and there was infighting there.

    I bet that many of the new features that we see really are targetted for a handful of corporate customers and are less for the far more numerous but smaller shops... Visual Studio is becoming much less of a personal craft tool and more of a stop on an assembly line of shitty code.

    But on the other hand, MS can still put it together on key stuff. Windows 7 is a really good product. I like it.

    --
    This is my sig.
    1. Re:Neither is best. by quanticle · · Score: 1

      And now we have the same sort of crap at Microsoft. Exhibit A [for today], is LINQ vs other ORM efforts that Microsoft is working on in C#. LINQ is what, wildly popular, and it is also killed, largely because LINQ didn't come from the Visual Studio group, but from the SQL Server group.

      Really? LINQ is being killed off? Got a source for that? As far as I can tell, LINQ is alive and well in the latest versions of .NET.

      --
      We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
  51. Anonymous Coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I used to work at Microsoft. I spent over 3 years there as a vendor and then 18 months as a full-time employee. I heard lots of rumors while a vendor about the backstabbing amongst team members and the unwillingness of separate teams to come together to deliver on new innovation. During my 18 months as an employee I saw 10x the number of instances of everything aforementioned. It was a terrible place to work for me as I am the type that just wants to get stuff done, and wants to make the company money. Unfortunately, everything outlined in this op-ed is spot on correct. Can Microsoft recover from this? Sure, but they won't without some serious changes in the compensation packages and other incentives, and without cleaning a lot of the current employees out. In my humble opinion, they better do it quick.

  52. Rapid Me-Too-ism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As an ex-Microsoftie, I can say that Microsoft is more of a rapid copier than an innovator. It's culture is also foster acquisitions, not creation.

    If you look at its products, where is the of the transformative new idea? Sure there's lots of incremental improvements but where are the sparks?

    Office suite -- basic ideas came from others (WordPerfect, Lotus, etc)
    PowerPoint -- a purchase
    Windows NT family -- DEC West's Prism project
    Basic -- Gates copied language grammar from a DEC manual
    IE -- checked the copyrights to see its origin

    Microsoft was a growth company under Gates due to his hyper-competitiveness. Under Ballmer, it is just milking its cash cows.

    Microsoft grew when it could grab ideas but after it killed its competition, it couldn't generate ideas by itself. The company's culture is to ship, not to invent.

    1. Re:Rapid Me-Too-ism by gujo-odori · · Score: 3, Informative

      I'm also an ex-Microsoftie, and I got there by acquisition. To say the least, it was not at all my cup of tea.

      TFA is pretty accurate that it has a culture problem. The culture there is really pathological in so many ways. A former co-worker of mine who immigrated to the United States from the USSR said the propaganda level was strikingly similar to living in a communist country. I completely agreed with him, having lived in one myself for a while.

      When my former employer was acquired by Microsoft (we were in the security area) and we started benchmarking our product against Microsoft's own and were blowing theirs away despite the fact that we were using data we'd never seen before or trained on, did they say "Wow, you guys rock!!" - um, no. They questioned our methodology, our stats, everything. It was incomprehensible to them that we could be that much better, right from the gate, against a product they'd been working on for years. It took months before they gave up and grudgingly admitted we were right. "Not Invented Here" runs deep in Redmond. Really, really deep. Despite the fact that they have indeed bought our copied for almost everything in their product line. Go figure.

      As far as the culture of acquired companies goes, the MSFT approach is to exterminate it. That part is quick and brutal. Resistance truly is futile and you will be assimilated. Or you'll quit. I chose the latter.

      As TFA says, there are thousands of really smart people at Microsoft, and it's not just the engineers, either. HR people, admin assistants, everywhere you look, people are really sharp. Even the receptionists are the best I've run across, and they have great things like at least one IT desk in every building where you can go if you're having problems with your computer. Kind of like an internal Apple Genius Bar. That's a tremendous idea.

      The problem is, Microsoft has these armies of really, really smart, innovative people but the whole that is produced from all this intelligence and innovativeness is way, way less than the sum of the parts. IMO most of those supersmart people ought to be at Apple rather than MSFT, or at Google (neither of which is my current employer). They could really shine there and get a lot more of there best ideas out there and make a difference. Sounds like Dick Brass should have worked at Apple or Google, too, really.

      My present employer is another big company whose name is a household word, and in pretty much every way it's better than Microsoft. I got there by acquisition too, and I love it. It's a great place to work.

      Culturally, not only has the culture of my acquired employer not been extinguished, we have actually had some success at spreading it to our broader business unit while at the same time absorbing the best of the new culture. IMO there is no way that could happen at MSFT.

      This doesn't mean I think Microsoft can be written off as a competitor. They remain hypercompetitive are very good at exploiting their market dominance to drive out other solutions and push mixed shops to go all MSFT. I can't imagine why on earth a shop would want to convert from anything else to Exchange, but I see it happen all the time. Rarely do I hear of anyplace dumping Exchange for something else, even when something else would be a better solution.

      But an innovator? Nah, Microsoft just ain't that. They never were, really.

  53. They need a CEO that loves technology by Stuntmonkey · · Score: 1

    With tech companies in particular, the leadership is crucial. The people at the top need to have a love of the product, a point of view, and a passion to change the world. Look at the influence Jobs had after returning to Apple: He shut down the 80% of projects that weren't going anywhere, and instilled some vision and focus into the efforts of his company. A leader can only do this if they have a personal love of technology. It doesn't come from a business school textbook, it's got to be in your blood. People who want to change the world don't have time for infighting.

    Balmer is an ok guy, and he's probably pretty good as CEOs go, but he's a businessman through and through, not a good CEO of a tech company. He has no idea what he's trying to do with the technology, other than make money.

  54. This is a story? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Microsoft hasn't been innovative for decades. They are a monopoly. They don't need to nor want to innovate. A monopoly wants to preserve the status quo as much as possible. And are people at Microsoft surprised by this? I thought they hired smart people.

  55. The mods have been kind to you by doug141 · · Score: 1

    You compare the business of striving for productivity in manufacturing to that of the business of getting an audience. Also, sports that involve only cooperation are watched all the time, only they are called other names, like performances, ballets, the circus, exhibitions, the outdoor channel, etc.

  56. Walmart by Prien715 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Yeah, my God, WalMart is hugely innovative! Its employees are always seeking new ways of wearing jeans badly so their ass cheeks hangs out or mangling the English language to a degree that I preferred Japanese! I had no idea that these innovations were driven by top down inspiration by the yellow smiley face...I thought he just whistled and hip-checked price tags. Wait a moment! His whistle IS hypnotizing!

    --
    -- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
    1. Re:Walmart by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      I had no idea that these innovations were driven by top down inspiration by the yellow smiley face...I thought he just whistled and hip-checked price tags. Wait a moment! His whistle IS hypnotizing!

      MS-Bob lives!
         

    2. Re:Walmart by quanticle · · Score: 2, Insightful

      At the same time, you have to admit that Wal*Mart is posting the highest retail growth numbers in the country, despite having annual sales that are greater than next four companies combined. The fact that they've been able to maintain this growth for such a long time means that they're doing something right.

      --
      We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
    3. Re:Walmart by jimnorcal · · Score: 1

      Perhaps the innovation he spoke of (for walmart) is marketing, supply and logistics methods and store shelving. They have developed new systesm (and continue to do so) to improve efficiency all around. It's due to these many innovations that helps keep them on top by keeping prices lower (as can be) than most of the competitors. Of course, treating their huge employee base badly with low wages and no benefits of any kind also helps the walton heiress's pockets lined with cash. I'm sure she feels absolutely no tears at all for all the lives she keeps in the poverty heap while she laughs all the way to the banks. Evil has many faces.

  57. Telus v Telus Mobile by Geotopia · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Telus is the land line company that offers voice, internet, television. Telus MOBILE are the cell phone creeps. I'm not even on their network and had to fight $600 in failed data charges. Yes, Telus MOBILE sucks, but the land line telco seems okay!

  58. Points I disagree with by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    More than any other firm, it made using computers both ubiquitous and affordable.

    I doubt that. I would credit Commodore far more; they brought computing to the masses. MS's only real semi-claim to fame is integrating the products in the Office suite for better info sharing. Whether sufficient integration would have happened without MS is hard to say.

    No one in his right mind should wish Microsoft failure.

    Author is obviously not a slashdotter.

    But [ClearType] also annoyed other Microsoft groups that felt threatened by our success....The head of Office products said it was fuzzy and gave him headaches.

    Same with me. Perhaps I could grow used to it, but it would take a while. Aliased (stair-stepped) fonts are ugly, but at least their edges are sharp. The slightly fuzzy rainbowy edges of ClearType can be hard on the eyes. It also makes copy-and-pasting of images across computers problematic. As a personal choice, fine; but many wouldn't miss it.

    1. Re:Points I disagree with by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's because ClearType "hammers" the letters to make them fit into sub-pixels. That's why it looks like crap: it's too sharp.

      People say that sub-pixel anti-aliasing on Mac OS X looks "blurry" but that's because they're used to having their eyeballs stabbed with sharp edges.

      Use Mac OS X for only a month, after that your eyes will bleed by watching anything rendered with ClearType.

    2. Re:Points I disagree with by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      Use Mac OS X for only a month, after that your eyes will bleed by watching anything rendered with ClearType.

      I've used OS X for years and to this day, I still find fonts look like shit on it. Especially since I like them small. Worst it, you try tweaking that stupid font setting to set the minimum to apply it's stupid crap on and most applications and Windows don't abide by the setting. OH I CAN FEEL THE INTEGRATION, IT'S SOOO SEAMLESS!

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
  59. I know some Microsofties... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've also been to parties where many of them attended. They didn't know each other because they were from different parts of the company. It's not hard to get them to argue with each other. It's often very entertaining.

  60. Solid as a sponge by SuperKendall · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Zune is a good example. They came up with a solid product pretty quickly when they put their minds to it.

    Wouldn't a much more "solid" product have been a device that wasn't aimed right at a rapidly collapsing market and instead was ahead of the game?

    A zPhone around the time the Zune came out, using XNA to program it - that might have been something. It could have leveraged stuff they had on hand very quickly to at least stave off the iPhone. Instead they have a tiny fraction of a shrinking standalone media player market, and years later no answer to the phone space, at all.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  61. Hire straight from college by mahadiga · · Score: 1

    Many of the firm's 30 employees are not yet 25.
    They were hired straight from college to ensure their thinking and work habits are untainted.
    Now they're making Wall Street's latest fortune, a fraction of a penny at a time.

    http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/printthread.php?threadid=184387

    --
    I'd like to buy homeland for our 10 million people. http://twitter.com/mahadiga
  62. Ribbon is not new by westyvw · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Look at the screenshots of Bluefish from 2004: http://web.archive.org/web/20040715074025/bluefish.openoffice.nl/screenshots.html

    The bluefish editor has been using contextual tabs since 2000 or so. Ribbon is new for office, but contextual layout with a tabbing interface is not new at all.

    1. Re:Ribbon is not new by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      I'd have to use it to see if it's the same thing or not. Just from the screenshots, I can tell that whatever it does with tabs, it didn't get rid of the traditional menu bar and toolbars, so my first inclination is to say "that's completely different."

      But thanks for replying with actual information, instead of a long series of wrong.

    2. Re:Ribbon is not new by heffrey · · Score: 1

      Er, I guess you've not used the Ribbon, or not used Bluefish perhaps, if you think that their UI is comparable.

  63. VW innovation is genuine by Kupfernigk · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I guess you must live in the US, where cars are mostly very technologically backward compared to Europe (there was an article by a Honda guy in the last Scientific American promoting many "future developments" in IC engines which are already mainstream in Europe.

    For road transport there are not many small-vehicle options outside the 4-wheeled box, co complaining that a car is still a car is stupid. VW has volume car designs which use remarkably advanced technologies - small 4-cylinder engines with outputs on a par with US V6 models, and with vastly superior fuel consumption. They make the FSI engine which produces 170BHP from 1.4 liters, with high torque from little more than tickover. They make Diesels which produce 170BHP from 1.9 liters. VW are achieving "hybrid" efficiencies from conventional engines with no expensive nickel batteries. They have commercialised close-ratio 7 speed automatic boxes with dual clutches and no slushbox. And this has been done with genuine innovation rather than incremental improvements.

    And no, I am not a VW driver. I prefer the products of another innovative German company based in Stuttgart.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
    1. Re:VW innovation is genuine by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I prefer the products of another innovative German company based in Stuttgart.

      I wonder how many Americans actually understood what you were saying. I'm an Ingolstadt driver by the way :-) I always found it a bit of a weird thing that Germans use city names to refer to car brands. First time I saw it I was wondering what exactly they were talking about.

    2. Re:VW innovation is genuine by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      And how about telling the rest of us what brand of cars you're both referring to?

    3. Re:VW innovation is genuine by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 1

      Look the cities up in wikipedia... It's documented there.

    4. Re:VW innovation is genuine by IronChef · · Score: 1

      I guess you must live in the US, where cars are mostly very technologically backward compared to Europe...

      There was Top Gear where Clarkson reviewed a Ford pickup, and he said it felt like the frame was "welded together from old shovels."

      (There were also a lot of jokes about how Americans were likely to be attacked by bears whenever venturing outdoors. I LOLd.)

      I really don't understand the American car market. OK, we like our big SUVs here, and as soon as gas prices drop a dime/gallon sales of huge cars pick right up again. But surely there are enough people who would want zippy yet fuel efficient cars that it would be worth an auto maker's effort to sell some here?

      Surely, by now the diesel stigma has died off enough for more diesel options to be provided to us? Are young car buyers still afraid of the 1970s diesel image, which they weren't even alive to observe?

      Are the auto makers simply lumbering forward on inertia... or are there actual fiscal or regulatory reasons for not giving us the tasty options we see overseas?

    5. Re:VW innovation is genuine by osomoore · · Score: 0

      Stuttgart = Porsche
      Ingolstadt = Audi

      Personally, I would be a Stuttgart driver... if I had the cash.

    6. Re:VW innovation is genuine by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 1

      Munich = BMW
      Stuttgart = Mercedes
      Wolfsburg = Volkswagen
      Did we cover them all? I would rather have a Stuttgart too, but my Audi TT is very nice too :-)

    7. Re:VW innovation is genuine by gwappo · · Score: 1
      Google it:

      Audi HQ is in Ingolstadt,

      Mercedes HQ is in Stuttgart,

      BMW HQ is in Munich,

      VW HQ is in Wolfsburg,

      Porsche is in Zuffenhausen (which apparently is in Stuttgart).

      I think that about covers German cars.

    8. Re:VW innovation is genuine by toddestan · · Score: 1

      It's not like we don't do it here on Slashdot. Can you name the companies that are headquartered in Redmond and Cupertino?

    9. Re:VW innovation is genuine by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 1

      In geek circles surely... Ask your dad,he won't know... In Germany it is really common to refer to the HQ cities to refer to car companies. A german non-geek dad would know. ;-) Most German people will know what you're takling about.

    10. Re:VW innovation is genuine by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

      Yes, from US and not a car guy. Cars are tools meant to get me from point A to point B. Which ever can do that the cheapest fro me, wins. My 95 Civic kills my coworkers Auidi A6 in that measurement. My point is its just a car. They made better cars. Yea! Microsoft also makes its products better. Why is one company innovative and not the other?

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
  64. Just curious... by Foobar+of+Borg · · Score: 1

    Does Microsoft have a war room? And, is fighting allowed in there? Perhaps this is the reasons innovation is hampered there.

    1. Re:Just curious... by DigitalSorceress · · Score: 1

      We can't let them into the war room, they'll see the BIG BOARD!

      --

      The Digital Sorceress
  65. ObCarAnalogy by argent · · Score: 1

    The internal combustion engine is the future! It's like Science Fiction!

    Something that has been in common use for more than half a decade isn't "the future".

    1. Re:ObCarAnalogy by oreaq · · Score: 1

      I concur that it wasn't "the future". I just said that it wasn't "the past" either. False dichotomy.

    2. Re:ObCarAnalogy by argent · · Score: 1

      OK, it's the past because the responsiveness and user experience you got on a 20 MHz 386 in 1992 was not even comparable to the responsiveness and user experience I got on my 7 MHz 68000 in 1985. It wasn't until Windows 98 SE that Windows really pulled ahead of the best of the "legacy" systems, even with Moore's Law helping.

      Windows NT kicked all their butts, including the Dark Horse BeOS, but by that time most of the enthusiasts had switched to Free UNIX of one kind or another.

    3. Re:ObCarAnalogy by oreaq · · Score: 1

      "By the time Windows was usable" implied 98SE or NT 3.5. My "early 90's" was just a bad hyperbole.

      Oh and I didn't want to defend Microsoft's innovative, ahem, prowess. The Atari 520ST GUI was way ahead of what Microsoft offered for the next decade or so. And Atari was not original either.

    4. Re:ObCarAnalogy by argent · · Score: 1

      It was my "early '90s". The first usable version of Windows was 3.1 in 1992.

    5. Re:ObCarAnalogy by oreaq · · Score: 1

      I don't really have an opinion on whether Win 3.1 was usable or not. "By the time Windows was usable" implied 98SE or NT 3.5 for me. I didn't have enough experience with it to form an opinion. Maybe you're right, i don't know.

      All I was arguing is that the concept "GUI" was brought to the masses by Microsoft. That concept might not have been very new then but it has been dominating computer interfaces since the early '90s so it definitely was not "the past".

      Microsoft did this not by engineering the best implementation of the GUI concept or by significantly evolving it but by finding and creating the right markets and by then aggressively selling to them. Which usually is key in bringing something to the masses. So no real surprise there.

  66. Research by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I fear that what is overlooked here is microsoft's recent advancement (due to pressure from open source and others) in funding research. They buy and buy and buy good researchers, and it even brings results. (I'm not happy with that).

    When you read lambda-the-ultimate.org (programming languages weblog) you see how many people in this area are employed by microsoft research.
    And some years ago I heard a hacker telling the story that microsoft had begun to take security seriously, buying security experts and so on. Isn't there a guide for windows application developers how to write secure programs?

    this might not be about the internals of the company, but about research in remote facilities. It's sad because it makes this fucking monopoly sustain.

  67. Call it what you want... by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

    Call it infighting, call it spending your time making sure you save your own ass, call it afraid to change with the times, when you hire new blood and don't back their ideas....I am sure there is plenty of creative people at M$, they just get held back or kept down a lot, because the bureaucracy over there is what is the most important, contrary to a place like Google, where they really push for you to come up with great new ideas, even if you don't have a engineering degree, they will listen and even ponder on your ideas.

    I think if M$ had someone else running the show, they could really surpass Google,
    to become top dog again, but not with the present project plan, or people in charge.

  68. Microsoft innovation exists in one place by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

    Lots of people have spouted the conventional wisdom that Microsoft never innovates, and it's true for every case but one: DirectX. The DirectX libraries were internally developed, they are tight, high performance code, and they were THE innovation that prevented Windows from fading.

    A couple of people have pointed out that Microsoft really only cares about their corporate customers, because they have vastly more money than consumers, but they do have to care about consumers at least a little, and they are aware of that. They know that if individuals aren't using their products at home, they won't go to work knowing them. The more individuals use the office tools on their own time, the better their chances that they'll demand the same tools in the workplace.

    But how many presentations are created at home? Not none, but the number isn't very high. So Microsoft needed something to keep Windows relevant at home, and DirectX was it. The DirectX team may be the only reason the PC remained viable at all. The open hardware of the PC platform was causing a proliferation of different devices, all of which had to have drivers, but none of which provided compatible drivers. DirectX defined the APIs that drivers had to provide, and then managed to use them so well that people could forget for a little while that Windows is slow. Most of Windows IS slow, but DirectX most definitely is not.

    There's a reason why other divisions of Microsoft are trying to ride the XBox group's coattails. XBox is powered by DirectX, Microsoft's only real innovation.

    1. Re:Microsoft innovation exists in one place by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      Lots of people have spouted the conventional wisdom that Microsoft never innovates, and it's true for every case but one: DirectX. The DirectX libraries were internally developed, they are tight, high performance code, and they were THE innovation that prevented Windows from fading.

      Writing trivial interfaces for hardware that already exists, and establishing "infrastructure" that is only accepted because you are pushing it, is not innovation. It's the most trivial part of software development combined with crappy business practices.

      If you argued against the claim that Microsoft code is inefficient and buggy EVEN FOR THE PURPOSE THAT IT WAS WRITTEN, you would have a point, however that's a pretty low bar considering that Microsoft is known for mind-numbingly bad ideas and infrastructure behind their products.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
  69. "accidental monopolist" ?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is that similar to being an "accidental rapist"?

    1. Re:"accidental monopolist" ?? by yuhong · · Score: 1

      Well, there is a difference between having a monopoly and abusing one, it is the latter that MS did and that was illegal under anti-trust laws.

  70. Read again by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    So, where are the Microsoft laptops?

    There are none, since the original question was "when did Microsoft start selling laptops" there was in fact no need to show that Microsoft manufactured them. The poster did not specify Microsoft branded or manufactured devices.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  71. Mutually exclusive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Microsoft [...] innovation

    What.

  72. Accidental monopolist? by LionMage · · Score: 1

    At worst, you can say it's a highly repentant, largely accidental monopolist.

    This is such a skewed view of reality, I had to laugh -- it's something only an engineer working within Microsoft could write, completely ignoring (just to pick one predatory example) the kinds of lopsided contracts that Microsoft's business side was penning with all sorts of hardware manufacturers, prohibiting them from shipping computers with rival operating systems or web browsers...

    There was very little "accidental" about these predatory moves, and the monopoly trial very clearly showed that this was a pattern of behavior.

    Contrast with:

    The problem comes when the [internal] competition becomes uncontrolled and destructive. At Microsoft, it has created a dysfunctional corporate culture in which the big established groups are allowed to prey upon emerging teams, belittle their efforts, compete unfairly against them for resources, and over time hector them out of existence. It's not an accident that almost all the executives in charge of Microsoft's music, e-books, phone, online, search and tablet efforts over the past decade have left.

    Gee, that sounds like the same kinds of behavior, just writ small. This strikes me as one of those "you reap what you sow" type of situations. Definitely, the offspring-eating behavior is well ingrained in the DNA of this particular organism...

    The poetic justice is delicious. Pity that the author of TFA doesn't see it.