Slashdot Mirror


Tritium Leak At Vermont Nuclear Plant Grows

mdsolar writes "The tritium leak into ground water at Vermont Yankee has now tested at 775,000 picocuries per liter, 37 times higher than the federal drinking water standard. 'Despite the much higher reading, an NRC spokeswoman said Thursday there was nothing to fear. "There's not currently, nor is there likely to be, an impact on public health or safety or the environment," the NRC's Diane Screnci said in an interview. She had maintained previously that the Environmental Protection Agency drinking water safety limit of 20,000 picocuries per liter had an abundance of caution built into it. ... The National Academy of Sciences said in 2005 that any exposure to ionizing radiation from an isotope like tritium elevates the risk of cancer, though it also said with small exposures, the risk would be low. ' At what level should the NRC shut down the troubled plant?"

295 comments

  1. Wow... by Nemyst · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Way to shoot yourself in the foot. Why aren't those leaks taken care of fast, whether they are or aren't actually dangerous? We've had enough issues with fear of nuclear power, no need to let such stories grow out of proportions. Otherwise, we'll never see the US convert to nuclear power instead of gas and coal.

    1. Re:Wow... by Kartoffel · · Score: 5, Funny

      I would shoot myself in the foot, but it's dark and the tritium seems to have leaked out of my gun sights....

    2. Re:Wow... by poena.dare · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "On Jan. 7, it was reported that radioactive tritium was leaking from the Vernon reactor into groundwater; the source of the leak has not been found. The following week, it was revealed that Entergy officials had misled state regulators and lawmakers several times in 2008 and 2009 by saying Vermont Yankee did not have the type of underground pipes that could carry tritium."

      I very pro-Nuke power... Well regulated, well maintained nuke power, that is. What I don't understand is why we have standards about acceptable contamination levels and then allow corporations to exceed them without severe recourse.

      Not being able to find the leak after a month makes it sound like Entergy doesn't even know how their own plant works.

    3. Re:Wow... by conureman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'd be less skeptical of the Nuclear Industry if they weren't run by people with PhDs in subjects like "Controlling Product Life Cycles". Same as not buying Chinese Baby Food, this is just a groundless prejudice of mine; YMMV.

      --
      The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
    4. Re:Wow... by Mitchell314 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, things like this also do damage in worsening the public view of nuclear power.

      --
      I read TFA and all I got was this lousy cookie
    5. Re:Wow... by AtomicOrange · · Score: 1

      You could just lick your watch hands repeatedly...

      --
      "What is there a tank on the boat? WHY IS THERE A TANK ON THE BOAT?!?" L4D2
    6. Re:Wow... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Um......

      That's because they (the people there now) DON'T know how their plant works.

      VY went online in November 30, 1972...

      How many original employees do you think still exist there? I'd bet its zero. Or close to it.

      How many of the original engineers are even still alive?

      They operate at 120% of designed capacity right now too.

      Just another example of not taking care of our nations vital infrastructure. Altho in this case it can kill us. BRILLIANT!

      captcha:radiator (LOL)

    7. Re:Wow... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Soviet Russia, they had incompetent idiots running their nuclear powerplants, and a government not willing to do the right thing and shut them down. Disaster was the result.

      In Corporatist America, they have incompetent idiots running the nuclear powerplants, and a government not willing to do the right thing and shut them down. Disaster in the making?

    8. Re:Wow... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Hey at least in China some top officials get executed for big screw ups or corruption.

      Sure not all top Chinese officials have that risk, but it's still better accountability than in my 3rd world country (Malaysia), where the agency that investigates corruption is a poor joke - they don't even seem to have video recordings of "interviews" (I don't see any evidence of recordings of an interviewee that somehow jumped/fell from the 14th floor of their building).

      And it's certainly a big difference from ruining other people's lives and then paying yourself a big bonus.

    9. Re:Wow... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But China only uses top grade babies for their food.

    10. Re:Wow... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Obviously, loss of the unwritten wisdom and muscle memory and whatnot of people who retire is inevitable. Not much you can do about.

      However, losing entire pipe systems suggests that your organization is suffering from severe failures in the area of documenting and controlling complex systems over time.

      Keeping a handle on your complex system, whether it be a plant or a program, is hard; but if you can't do it, you really should consider a career change to something less important.

    11. Re:Wow... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      COOL! X men are on the way! Was Wolverine born in Vermont? I thought he was canadian.

    12. Re:Wow... by Is0m0rph · · Score: 1

      Thanks to the tritrium I can now see in the dark! Thanks Vermont Yankee!

    13. Re:Wow... by rhyder128k · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "At what level should the NRC shut down the troubled plant?"

      When the projected costs of liability for cancer exceed the projected profits? Oh sorry, you said "At what level should", I read that as "At what level will they". My mistake.

      --
      Michael Reed, freelance tech writer.
    14. Re:Wow... by sjames · · Score: 2, Insightful

      More like they don't care to actually spend the money. It's exactly the short sighted nothing but the quarterly report matters thinking that is busily torpedoing the U.S. economy. A rational person would rather fix the problem now than create yet another public backlash against nuclear power.

    15. Re:Wow... by noidentity · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The tritium leak into ground water at Vermont Yankee has now tested at 775,000 picocuries per liter[...] the NRC's Diane Screnci [...] maintained previously that the Environmental Protection Agency drinking water safety limit of 20,000 picocuries per liter had an abundance of caution built into it.

      What's the purpose of a safety limit and abundance of caution if you're going to turn around and claim that it's got lots of caution and therefore can be ignored? Or put another way, does this mean that she considers caution a silly thing to spend any time on?

      Like others, I've had to accept that nuclear power is one of the best energy sources, but this is fucking pathetic. Come on, Diane, even people who are pro-nuclear are put off by your bullshit. Close up your shop, get out of town, and let us bring in some people who will do it right. Your attitude makes it clear that this leak is the least of your problems.

    16. Re:Wow... by Sulphur · · Score: 1

      the tritium seems to have leaked out of my gun sights

      Did you loan your sights to the radioactive boy scout?

    17. Re:Wow... by flyneye · · Score: 1

      Oh for Bobs sake, put some chewing gum on the leak and lets get on with our lives.

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    18. Re:Wow... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because all the owners of the plant care about is making money. As a limited liability entity, there's little to no downside in not discovering or fixing a leak. All they stand to lose is their investment. If the cost of finding and/or fixing a leak is more than their investment, they won't bother.

      This is why if we want to ramp up nuclear energy production in this country, the business paradigm has to shift, because the costs of leaks can be so enormous compared to the stake that the shareholders have. Perhaps what we need is to separate operations from maintenance. One company does operations, and so are incentivized to maximize production. A separate private entity is hired by operations (forced to be hired, by law) to police and spot errors, and they get paid to do this. The more problems they find, the more they get paid. It's all about incentive.

    19. Re:Wow... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem here is in how you perceive "well regulated". A regulatory agency often behaves just like any other private entity. It wants to expand it's market (the number and scope of persons regulated) and increase it's revenue (i.e. funding). This means that the NRA is very "pro-nuclear"; and sadly "pro-nuclear" means hiding all of the pervasive issues that our decrepit plants have so that there's less fodder for the anti-nuclear folks to throw around.

      Thus, regulatory agencies often have the wrong set of incentives. What you need is a system that incentivizes catching these issues early. What we need is an entity--a private entity not as susceptible to lobbying--that gets paid more money the more issues they uncover. That will bring some balance back to the equation.

    20. Re:Wow... by Smallpond · · Score: 2, Informative

      Wait long enough and any technology can be lost. Lots of old cities still have wood water pipes. Good luck finding someone who knows where they are or can repair them.
      http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/18/us/18water.html

    21. Re:Wow... by dgatwood · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There's a big difference between a pinhole leak in a coolant pipe and a fundamentally flawed reactor design with no containment vessel and unsafe control rod designs operating way outside its safety margins. There's a difference between not knowing where every single coolant pipe is located and and deliberately ignoring safety alarms. I don't think there's much chance that this could cause a Chernobyl-level event in the near term.

      Should the reactor be shut down? Probably, if only because A. there's probably no way to fix an underground pipe leak without doing so, and B. if one pipe is leaking (and there have been *several* leaks at this plant lately), they're all probably on the verge of leaking, which means these problems are only going to get worse until they actually do pose a real risk.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    22. Re:Wow... by bwcbwc · · Score: 1

      I agree about the need for _well-regulated_ nuclear power. If the plant is exceeding the legal limit, especially by a factor of 37 or so and even more-so with the stone-walling that appears to have taken place, it's time to shut it down. If the legal limit is set too low, that is a separate matter from the fact that they are violating the current law. If I'm going 90 in a 65 MPH zone, I can't defend myself by saying that 90 is a safe speed on that road, even if my analysis is correct that the road is safe at that speed.

      Or if we accept for the sake of argument the idea that the 20,000 picocurie limit is too low, and the factor of 37 by which they are exceeding the radiation limit, the analogy is more like going 370 MPH in a 10 MPH speed zone. Which is a pretty stark reminder of just how badly they are breaking the law, and endangering the water supply.

      Besides, I'm sure they have plenty of money to lobby congress and/or the EPA to modify the limits for the future. So no excuses. Take care of the problem.

      --
      We are the 198 proof..
    23. Re:Wow... by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      As I understand it, the out-of-spec contamination level is measured inside the plant, not at the standard distance for test wells. The test wells are still within spec. They'll get there eventually, in all likelihood, but they're not there yet.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    24. Re:Wow... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's nothing wrong with nuclear power from a technological point of view. The dangers of nuclear power are organizational, as this incident shows once more. There are always problems with complex technological systems. If these problems would be dealt with in an adequate manner, we could have safe nuclear energy. Unfortunately there is no form of organization which can ensure the proper handling of problems in nuclear reactors. There are however strong economical incentives to bend the rules. Combine these two and you'll see why nuclear power is a very dangerous power source.

    25. Re:Wow... by tsm_sf · · Score: 0, Troll

      No, it's usually when someone like this comes along. Your basic unstoppable force of nature.

      --
      Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.
    26. Re:Wow... by zmooc · · Score: 1

      acceptable contamination levels and then allow corporations to exceed them without severe recourse

      That is not quite true; those acceptable contamination levels are for drinking water, not for ground water in general. So they don't really exceed them. Apart from that I completely agree with you, though...

      --
      0x or or snor perron?!
    27. Re:Wow... by bhalter80 · · Score: 1

      I'm also very very pro-nuclear and as I see it the NRC has 2 choices here: 1) get out in front of this, shut down the plant and show they're committed to safe nuclear power 2) keep Vermont Yankee operating despite being in violation of numerous EPA requirements and call all the doubters silly I can't see #2 working as it will only fuel the anti-nuke crowd since they will be showing they're not even committed to safety with the plants we have now what happens when there are hundreds more. #1 I suspect is overly simplistic and you can't simply shut down a nuke plant by turning a light switch, sure you can drop the control rods and shut down the reactor but draining the plant is a non-trivial task.

    28. Re:Wow... by vtcat · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, the plant is scheduled to close in 2012, unless the Vermont Legislature votes to allow it to operate for another 20 years.

      The Legislature meets from January to April or May. Vermont Yankee and the Governor were pushing for a vote this session. They're no longer quite as anxious to vote at this time.

    29. Re:Wow... by kestasjk · · Score: 1

      The NRC has to pay liabilities for cancer caused by fuel leaks? That'd be like the health inspector paying when a fast food chain poisons someone.

      --
      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
    30. Re:Wow... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually in both the USSR & USA the actual reactor operators were/are all very well trained intelligent people who knew exactly what they were/are doing. The problem was, as always, the management who *didn't* know what they were doing...

    31. Re:Wow... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Oh, the problem is by no means confined to this particular power plant. In fact, I'd argue that it is an extremely general problem, extending across the domains of system planning, document format design, library science, GIS, human resources, and others. It is also a very important problem to solve, or at least chip away at, if we want to continue to enjoy the fruits of highly complex technological civilization.

      The people who design and build complex systems are always going to leave, retire, or die. Advances in medicine have modestly extended the time horizon on the last two of those events, and sufficiently large sums of money can reverse the first(though, in general, there seems to have been a trend toward people moving around faster than in times past).

      Certain sorts of knowledge and experience are, at least without really creepy brain implants and other sci-fi stuff, basically impossible to capture. The muscle memory of a skilled technician moving through a complex series of manipulations, the emotional conditioning of a soldier continuing to function under extreme stress and danger, or the performance of a scientist or engineer(or, in more mundane cases, a support tech) who is so familiar with a system's parts that he can troubleshoot it as though by intuition.

      Barring substantial advances in man-machine interfaces or assistive technologies, the best we can really do to try to capture these is to foster the correct funding and HR environments. This doesn't mean unlimited lavish funding for everybody, that would be unrealistic; but it does mean trying to avoid boom/bust or feast/famine cycles. You want a steady continuity, with new hires having time to absorb experience from veterans, rather than having a purge/binge cycle, where efficient, well operating systems are cut to the bone(because hey, if they can keep the lights on with 5 engineers, 10 is clearly just a waste, just in time is the future, man!) until they start to fall apart, and then a whole bunch of noobs are hurridly hired and forced to reverse engineer the pieces and get things running again.

      Other aspects of institutional memory, while hard to capture, are at least in theory amenable to technological solution, if a serious and conscious effort is made to do things properly. Digital archivists and aggressive format standardization are one part of the puzzle. If your power plant/factor/whatever was CADed, your staff today should be able to call up the plans. If changes were made, they should be able to know when, where, what, why and who(similar, in principle, to the revision control systems used in software production). This is, admittedly, hard. It is quite possible that some 3rd party contractor CADed the place using an obscure, industry-specific CAD package from the 80s, and may or may not have shared the full specs with you. It is, however, necessary, and we as people with a stake in complex industrial society, need to do something about it.

      The other half of the puzzle, since keeping records in sync with reality is extremely hard and is inevitably going to fail from time to time, probably lies in the development of embedded sensors, "smart dust", and suchlike projects. Ideally, we should not only have the records of what the world is supposed to look like; but be able to programmatically interrogate the world and determine how closely it is adhering to our records, both in the sense of "Hey, look, the tertiary Toxin Shunt is developing stress fractures, it should be replaced within the next 100 hours." and "Hmm, flow-rate readings on the 2nd street water main look off compared to water meter readings in the area, we should check for possible tree roots, leaks, unauthorized diversions, or other deviations from the design."

      These are hard problems, and I don't actually suspect that the Vermont nuclear guys are unusually incompetent about it(though, losing tritium is more serious than just leaking water, so that is still kind of a problem); but this is an example of a very complex, very serious, and very important problem that we will have to come to a solution to. Complexity is hard; but if we want its benefits, we'll have to figure something out.

    32. Re:Wow... by X0563511 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I would wonder how it is that Tritium is in the coolant. Unless it's the (primary?) coolant stage that's leaking, in which yes - fixing it is a bitch because the coolant is otherwise very hot and radioactive.

      If you've got tritium in your (secondary?) coolant stage, you've got bigger issues.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    33. Re:Wow... by tftp · · Score: 1

      Did you loan your sights to the radioactive boy scout?

      See here or here.

    34. Re:Wow... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What I don't understand is why we have standards about acceptable contamination levels and then allow corporations to exceed them without severe recourse.

      From the summary:

      37 times higher than the federal drinking water standard.

      and

      ...safety limit of 20,000 picocuries per liter had an abundance of caution built into it.

      C'mon, pull my other leg. Engineers may design a three, four or five times safety margin into bridges or buildings, but who believes a toxicity standard is ever set at thirty-seven times the safe level? Someone here is full of crap. Even the standards for arsenic can't be anywhere near that high.

      In most cases, setting such a limit would make nearly any known substance unusable.

      What I don't understand is why we have standards about acceptable contamination levels and then allow corporations to exceed them without severe recourse.

      It's routine for big corporations to have their transgressions overlooked. When I was in the Coast Guard many years ago, it was well known that Standard Oil had constantly seeping underwater pipelines at their fuel docks in San Francisco Bay. Applicable per-day fines could have run to thousands of dollars, but they were never imposed. Why? -- SO whined that they'd take their marbles and relocate elsewhere. The old "economic impact on the region" BS argument.

      This despite the fact that the CG had absolute authority to enforce the law. In fact, we were told that we had jurisdiction over any conceivable pollution of the Bay. The example we were given was that, if there were a car crash on the adjacent Embarcadero Freeway (mercifully since removed following the Loma Prieta earthquake in '89), and oil ran down the freeway piers and into the water, the CG had authority to go up on the freeway and cite the owner of source vehicle for pollution.

    35. Re:Wow... by ahabswhale · · Score: 1

      "What I don't understand is why we have standards about acceptable contamination levels and then allow corporations to exceed them without severe recourse."

      I'll tell you why. It's because the EPA is no longer in the business of protecting citizens. They are in the business of protecting corporations and whatever whims the government may have at the time. For another example of their carefree regard concerning public safety just look at 9/11 where they declared the area safe in spite of all the dangerous particulate matter in the air and now rescuers who didn't have proper protective gear are having serious health issues (while being simultaneously told to go fuck themselves when it comes to covering their health care costs). The EPA is a joke. I don't see any point to their existence if they won't do their job. They are a waste of taxpayer money.

      --
      Are agnostics skeptical of unicorns too?
    36. Re:Wow... by sjames · · Score: 1

      If the problem is in the waste storage, shutting the reactor down wouldn't be at all helpful.

    37. Re:Wow... by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      I've found I don't like glowing sights or even colored sights. If there is enough light to positively see attacker/enemy's body, there is enough light for using plain black sights. And yes, over the years I've fired untold tens of thousands of handgun rounds with iron sights, glowing sights, laser sights (which would be my second choice in addition to iron), scopes.

    38. Re:Wow... by tftp · · Score: 1

      I've found I don't like glowing sights or even colored sights

      I don't need them either. My scopes have high magnification, clear optics and a fine duplex reticle, that's all I need to hunt varmints at large distances in broad daylight. I posted the link because I was unsure that everyone on /. is aware of tritium use.

    39. Re:Wow... by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      as I see it the NRC has 2 choices here: 1) get out in front of this, shut down the plant and show they're committed to safe nuclear power 2) keep Vermont Yankee operating despite being in violation of numerous EPA requirements and call all the doubters silly I can't see #2 working as it will only fuel the anti-nuke crowd since they will be showing they're not even committed to safety with the plants we have now what happens when there are hundreds more.

      or 3) change the requirements and declare Vermont Yankee to be in compliance with the rules that were rewritten specifically for them.

      This is made a bit more difficult by the fact that the regulations in question are those of the EPA, not the NRC, but you have to admit the idea is at least plausible.

      Mal-2

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    40. Re:Wow... by B4D+BE4T · · Score: 1

      Even worse, maybe they like the current public perception of nuclear power. With people afraid of nuclear power, there is greater opposition when someone tries to build a new nuclear plant which could compete with their plant. Maybe, in that sort of twisted logic, they see fixing the leak as spending money to shoot themselves in the foot.

    41. Re:Wow... by kullnd · · Score: 1

      How is comparing a city of water pipes to a power plants pipes even close?

      --
      +++ATH0 NO CARRIER
    42. Re:Wow... by Mikkeles · · Score: 1

      Diane Screnci is a liar;

      --
      Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ.
    43. Re:Wow... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's completely irrelevant if #1 works, dropping the control rods is so expensive that the mere threat would probably have the issue fixed in no time, no matter the cost.
      Or even if not it will convince every other operator to get their plants double- and triple checked to avoid this happening to them.
      Those not doing anything should learn that they are _strongly encouraging_ dangerous behaviour by driving anyone acting responsibly out of business.

    44. Re:Wow... by Mikkeles · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That would probably ensure that inspections were thorough and the chains squeaky clean.

      --
      Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ.
    45. Re:Wow... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      C'mon, pull my other leg. Engineers may design a three, four or five times safety margin into bridges or buildings, but who believes a toxicity standard is ever set at thirty-seven times the safe level?

      Of course they do, it's radiation paranoia. Exhibit A: tritium drinking water limits vary by a factor of 5,000, from 15 Bq/L to 76,000 Bq/L (400 pCi/L to 2,000,000 pCi/L):

      http://www.cnsc-ccsn.gc.ca/eng/mediacentre/updates/tritium_drinking_water_aug_2009.cfm

      The highest concentration observed in groundwater here, 775,000 pCi/L, is actually still within the drinking water limits of both Australia and Finland.

      Even the standards for arsenic can't be anywhere near that high.

      The difference is that those doses of arsenic have detectable health effects, while the "limits" of tritium have none or are undetectable -- being a fraction of a percent of baseline radiation exposure. From the CNSC link: 1 Bq/L in drinking water corresponds to 15 nSv/year dose for an adult (2 L/day ingestion), so the US EPA's 20,000 pCi/L (740 Bq/L) would cause an excess of 11 uSv/year - 0.6% over background radiation (1.8 mSv/year). The 775,000 pCi/L well water, if one were to drinking nothing else, would be 0.43 mSv/year.

    46. Re:Wow... by kestasjk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The NRC isn't a business, it's a government regulatory organization, if they had to pay liabilities it would be directly from the taxpayer, not from the actual official who made the check.
      It wouldn't affect the NRC at all, and would be absurd.

      Do you fine the guy who you pay to look for problems when he finds a problem? That's a genius idea, what could go wrong with that?

      --
      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
    47. Re:Wow... by moortak · · Score: 1

      Between this and Davis Besse we're facing a pretty uphill fight on public perception of nuclear safety.

      --
      Xavier Rabourdin for president 2012
    48. Re:Wow... by NonSequor · · Score: 1

      Ultimately these problems come from thermodynamics and information theory. All structures (both physical and informational) decay over time unless energy is expended to maintain them.

      This essentially means that you can never really "solve" a problem, you can only make a tradeoffs between cost of maintenance and soaking damage in the form of decay or in the form of an exposure to a risk of catastrophe. It's possible to find an agreeable tradeoff for a time, but eventually conditions shift and new problems arise forcing a shift in priorities. Ultimately you have to come to terms with maintenance as a way of life. No set of policies, methodologies, or technologies can produce satisfactory results indefinitely.

      Complexity is hard; but if we want its benefits, we'll have to figure something out.

      I believe that real world problems have innate costs which behave similar to the concept of Kolmogorov complexity. You can view the Kolmogorov complexity of a problem as the minimum length of a computer program which takes a description of the state of the system as input and outputs a series of procedures which completely resolve the problem down to tautologies. Or something along those lines, I haven't worked out all the details yet.

      Based on this guess, my expectation is that the complexity of real world problems vastly dwarfs the complexity of most problems of academic study. Furthermore, this implies that reducing maintenance costs should be like compression. You can condense the redundant structure down (e.g. if every plant needs a specialist to visit once a year, that specialist can visit a large number of plants each year reducing the average cost), but ultimately there is a limit to how much you can compress the cost.

      --
      My only political goal is to see to it that no political party achieves its goals.
    49. Re:Wow... by swb · · Score: 2, Informative

      All the competitive shooters who can use holographic sights (which are really just illuminated sights with zero power magnification) and they're pretty much standard equipment anymore on military rifles. Bullseye shooters all seem to prefer red dots; I have one on my Model 41 and its wicked accurate.

      For defensive guns, its hard not to see the advantages of tritium -- much faster and easier sight picture in low light. I use TruGlo sights that also have fiber optics; its the same sight picture/color in dark or light conditions. Fiber optic front sights are nice on revolvers if you're not using magnified glass or a dot, in the right light almost as nice as a red dot.

      I'm sure a person CAN develop great skills with iron sights for self defense, but its a lot easier in the dark with visible sights.

    50. Re:Wow... by HiddenCamper · · Score: 1

      I hope they aren't dropping...Vermont is a BWR, they go up from the bottom.

    51. Re:Wow... by HiddenCamper · · Score: 3, Informative

      BWRs are only 1 stage for cooling. The water in the reactor is the water that passes through the condenser. PWRs use 2 loops. Vermont is a BWR. Tritium levels could be higher in there because of the massive amount of free neutrons flying around in the reactor. double neutron absorption in the water could cause it.

    52. Re:Wow... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Curies= 3.7*10^10 decays per second

      For 775000 picoCuries/L of tritium:
      775000*10^-12 Curies=28675 atoms decaying a second per liter of H20

      The decay is 4500 days (388800000s) for tritium. To solve for total amount of tritium atoms:

      activity* half life/ Ln[2] =28675*388800000s/Ln[2]=16091470258137 atoms of tritium per liter of H20.

      Percentage Breakup:
      55.56 mol H20 per L of water
      6.022*10^23 atoms per mol
      55.56 mol H20*6.022*10^23 atoms per mol=33459018174000000000000000 atoms H20 per mol

      % of water that is decaying:
      8.5701857271718997692068978282028e-20

      % of water that contains radioactive substance
      4.8093073665386628568200257076677e-11

      So to answer your question... There is A FUCKING SMALL AS LEAK IN A PIPE SOMEWHERE.

    53. Re:Wow... by sincewhen · · Score: 1

      since keeping records in sync with reality is extremely hard

      Based upon my experience in the IT field, it is not hard, it's just something that people don't like to do.

      --
      -- Braden's law of data: All data spends some of its lifetime in an excel spreadsheet.
    54. Re:Wow... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      Based on my experience in the IT field, I agree.

      However, for the purposes of organization level consideration, that is what makes it hard. If your minions hate doing something, you'll either need to pay them more, punish them more, fire them more(and then have to hire more), dedicate more resources to spying on them and making sure they are doing what they are supposed to, or similar such means. These methods tend to be costly, or require management capable of keeping morale genuinely high, or vulnerable to subversion, or some combination of the above.

      The problem is particularly tricky because, most of the time(at least in the short to medium term, at the end of which it will be somebody else's problem) you can get 90% of the immediate benefit for 20% of the effort. The guy in charge of demanding the extra 80% effort, whose payoff will be felt mostly in the future, will always be seen by the workers below him as a demanding, makework, hardass, whose directives are to be followed to the minimum degree required. He will be seen by managers above him as a largely unproductive cost center, to be trimmed or eliminated.

      Individual hardness and organizational hardness have a complex and odd relationship. Some things are really easy(or, in the case of driven individuals, really natural); but very hard to build organizations that manage to reliably produce these things(keeping decent records is mostly easy; but people hate bothering and it can be hard to make them. Really smart, creative, people love making cool things; but it can be all too easy for organizations to suck the life out of them and get crap instead). At the same time, sometimes organizations can reliably get people to produce things that they would be very hard otherwise.

    55. Re:Wow... by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      Doesn't the government have to insure nuclear plants because the private sector won't?

    56. Re:Wow... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you "fine the guy who you pay to look for problems when he doesn't find a problem" that later surfaces.

    57. Re:Wow... by DarthVain · · Score: 1

      I see this all the time at work, or even in politics.

      Its called short sightedness, and the reason it is popular, is that people are generally rewarded for it.

      When the negative effects eventually come around, it doesn't matter, as they themselves are gone, and not held in anyway accountable.

      A particularly good example of this is groups can have all the greatest policy in the world, but 9 times out of 10 it will get trumped by "funding", and when a manager gets a bonus for cutting funding...

      It is systemic and everywhere, and the only way to stop it, is to start to actually rewarding people that make "long term" decision (that may have little or no impact in the short term), and to hold accountable the people that go for the fast buck to advance themselves.

      I can tell you the likelihood that will happen in our lifetime. 0%. Ya, I am a bit pessimistic, but the positive feedback to this negative process is just too great to correct on its own. It would take a total shift in thinking for a great many people, which doesn't happen very fast at all.

    58. Re:Wow... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What cancer? Nah all those people got cancer from umm..... 2nd hand smoke!

  2. I won't lie- This concerns me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am a native Vermonter.... At first the leak was super small, something like 1/7th the legal amount which was no big deal. Why freak out?
    Well, now we're finding out the true amount that seems to be getting through. That's pretty sketch guys and It is a bit concerning.

    Any nuclear people have input on this situation?

    1. Re:I won't lie- This concerns me by HiddenCamper · · Score: 4, Interesting

      They are finding water near the condensate storage tanks. This is water that is supposed to be used for emergency cooling, replenishing reactor feedwater, and overflow for a couple systems. It is potentially contaminated. It draws its water from the potable water system (typically in most plants), which means that the water going in is supposed to be clean. They need to check if they have a leak in there causing potentially contaminated water to go into the site's potable water system. I'm sure that was already done, at my plant it would have been done already at least. Anyways, condensate storage tanks arent always located inside the plant. It is very likely thats where the leak is. I'm not completely sure why they are getting tritium of all things as in a BWR plant tritium usually isnt your biggest worry. Nuclear plants have a corrective action process that a plant uses to fix problems. Anyone at the plant can put something in the process, it is federally mandated, and its one of those things that an employee cannot lose his job over. The system is very effective and allows the plants to 'self-police'. Finding and fixing a problem like this when the tritium leak was low would have been a low priority fix because the tritium levels were under limits previously. One of the actions they took was likely to install the new wells to find if the leaks were worse near potentially contaminated systems, which they did and found out it was worse. Now they are likely elevating the issue internally, which is why it was reported again to the NRC. So far, the plant sounds like they legally/procedureally done everything right. They made a huge boo-boo by having a PR guy tell people they have no underground piping that could carry contaminated water, it makes me think that guy never took or paid attention during the BWR systems class. The plant cannot be expected to prevent all accidents, but they are expected to mitigate accidents and issues to a minimal risk of safety to the public and to monitor and fix equipment which has repeat failures (things they know are breaking). Long story short, They are going to get investigated, and if this problem has been here longer than they say it has, they are in a bit of trouble. I Tritium isnt terrible in the water, as long as it doesnt get into drinking water. It's in low amounts that it will be diluted easily if it reaches a main water supply. It's still not good, but there are MANY worse things that could have leaked.

    2. Re:I won't lie- This concerns me by FatdogHaiku · · Score: 4, Funny

      We hear your concerns and we are instituting a remediation program immediately! You should shortly be receiving a package via USPS bulk rate. In it you will find a shovel, a radiation detection badge, and a large zippered radiation proof bag.

      Directions

      Take the shovel and dig a "Safety" hole three feet wide, 4 to 6 feet deep, and about as long as you are tall.
      Put on the detection badge. Please wear the detection badge at all times.
      You will note the badge has the words "Hell No, We Don't Glow" printed on it.
      If those words fad out OR if the badge does in fact begin to glow you should take the bag and climb into the Safety Hole.
      Get in the bag and zipper it up from the inside to keep the radiation out. Now lay quietly in the bottom of the Safety Hole until help arrives.

      Thanks for your cooperation.

      --
      You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
    3. Re:I won't lie- This concerns me by rhyder128k · · Score: 3, Funny

      Don't worry, nature has a way of balancing itself out and adapting to changes. You'll probably grow an extra cock, but you'll have extra fingers to hold it with.

      --
      Michael Reed, freelance tech writer.
    4. Re:I won't lie- This concerns me by wytcld · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They made a huge boo-boo by having a PR guy tell people they have no underground piping that could carry contaminated water

      It wasn't a PR guy. It was one of their chief engineers. And it was also their top executive for the plant. In sworn testimony. On several occassions. To both state regulators and state legislators. In a state where, when Entergy bought the plant, Entergy agreed contractually that the state legislature's approval would be required - unlike in any other state - for Entergy to renew the plant's license.

      Also, Entergy plans to spin off this and several other plants into a new corportion that will carry billions in debt, and free Entergy from most future financial responsibility for any cleanup of the plant. There's a decommissioning fund, but since the stock market crashed it's way underfunded, and depends on some decades of extraordinary investment appreciation if it's to recover - which the NRC seems unconcerned about.

      I'm pro-nuclear power. But Entergy hires chief engineers who are either incompetent or liars - or who've never reviewed a full schematic of their plant.

      --
      "with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
    5. Re:I won't lie- This concerns me by vtcat · · Score: 5, Informative

      Exactly- It wasn't a PR guy, it was Jay Thayer, VP of operations, among others. Backtracking and in trouble: A detailed timeline on who said what on Vt. Yankees Also, instead of 0 underground pipes, there are 40. And they've found Cobalt-60 and Zinc-65 in a "trench". Nice

    6. Re:I won't lie- This concerns me by HiddenCamper · · Score: 1

      Co-60 is millions of times more dangerous than tritium. I got a feeling there's gonna be some jailing going on.

    7. Re:I won't lie- This concerns me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and It is a bit concerning

      Only pompous dicks use "concerning" as an adjective.

    8. Re:I won't lie- This concerns me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "PR guy" is a VP, Jay Thayer, now apparently on administrative leave, and he testified before the VT State Legislature that the plant did not have underground pipes.

      http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/article/20100203/NEWS02/100203007/1007/Vermont-Yankee-VP-placed-on-permanent-leave

      FWIW, as a Vermont resident, I really haven't liked what I've heard about operations at Vernon for a long time (back to the late '80s-early '90s). I hope my State does not extend the license for the plant in 2012 for another 20 years as Entergy is requesting.

      I would be interested to see a new safe modern plant built in Vermont, ideally right at the Vernon site, with an entirely new cast and crew. Perhaps a Pebble Bed Modular Reactor (PBMR, http://www.nrc.gov/reactors/advanced/pbmr.html) would fit the bill, but it sounds like the project in South Africa has failed, which leaves the Chinese, they have a different design that may be working at commercial scale RSN (2011). I realize that such construction anywhere in America is very unlikely .

  3. We have the answer... by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 5, Funny
    Nuke it from high orbit

    Oh, wait...

    --
    Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    1. Re:We have the answer... by willyd357 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Haha, nice. Somebody mod parent funny please.

    2. Re:We have the answer... by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      2017 Aliens remake quote: “Nuke it from the river water! It’s the only way to be sure!”

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
  4. My watch from 1980s glowed in dark due to tritium by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does that mean people in Vermont will glow in the dark too? Sounds like a win to me.

  5. When life gives you lemons, make lemonade by VorlonFog · · Score: 1

    Surely there's plenty of potential for making heavy water (d2o), right?

    1. Re:When life gives you lemons, make lemonade by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong. Tritium contaminated water is THO, not D2O.

    2. Re:When life gives you lemons, make lemonade by gmuslera · · Score: 2, Funny

      Then its time to start making heavier water

    3. Re:When life gives you lemons, make lemonade by spazekaat · · Score: 0

      Really? Why not T2O? Of course, you may be correct if the ratio of Tritium to Hydrogen was equal, but maybe this is statistics in action. ????? Also, I guess it depends upon exactly when and how the water molecule was created or altered......

    4. Re:When life gives you lemons, make lemonade by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Equal ratio? No. The fraction of tritium in the ground water is a very small number (call it e). So you end up with (1-e)^2 H2O, 2*(1-e)*e THO, and e^2 T2O. H2O isn't contaminated, so you look at the other two. THO dominates by a factor of about 2/e, so for all practical purposes it's really just THO.

      Also, I guess it depends upon exactly when and how the water molecule was created or altered......

      It doesn't. Water molecules get randomly dissociated and recombined on a scale of about 10h. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-ionization_of_water

    5. Re:When life gives you lemons, make lemonade by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      I think you mean HTO.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    6. Re:When life gives you lemons, make lemonade by Zerth · · Score: 1

      T20 will swap atoms when mixed with H20 until much of it is HTO. Actually, it is really hard to even get mostly pure T20, much like making 100% alcohol.

    7. Re:When life gives you lemons, make lemonade by cerberusss · · Score: 1

      Great idea. I'd like some for making coffee. Heavy coffee. From the hills of Vermont.

      Let Vermont Hills' awake you
      From a thousand death
      A cup of glowing coffee
      Dying, dying, you're dying for a cup

      --
      8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
  6. Get my Tritium and Helium 3 kits TODAY! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Tritium and its decay product helium 3 are incredibly valuable and there is currently a shortage of helium 3.

    Make BIG $$$$ by buying my kit to salvage that Tritium and Helium 3! The Gold market is in a bubble, the stock market is going down, the Real Estate Market is flat and MORE foreclosures are on their way! Glen Beck has expounded on his radio show about how Tritium and Helium 3 is the ONLY hedge against the Obama caused inflation! The Dollar is DEAD! Get the kit and become RICH!

    Just capture the Tritium and Helium 3 with the kit, mail it in, receive your check for BIG $$$$$$!!

    Buy now!

    Just ten equal payments of $19.99 charged to your credit card in a span of minutes! And if you act NOW, we'll throw in another one for absolutely free!

    Just call!

    1-800-STUPIDS

  7. 2.7 million picocuries by mysqlrocks · · Score: 4, Informative

    Actually, the latest reading was 2.7 million picocuries: http://www.vpr.net/news_detail/87126/

    1. Re:2.7 million picocuries by biryokumaru · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Can't we just say 2.7 microcuries now?

      --
      When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
    2. Re:2.7 million picocuries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it doesn't sound DANGEROUS enough.

    3. Re:2.7 million picocuries by jschen · · Score: 1

      You can. But it's convenient to express data using the most common unit for related data. For example, you could state the distance between Los Angeles and Sydney in megameters, but you almost certainly would choose kilometers over megameters.

    4. Re:2.7 million picocuries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can't we just say 2.7 microcuries now?

      2.7e6 what the hell is a pi

    5. Re:2.7 million picocuries by biryokumaru · · Score: 1

      Picocuries (or micromicrocuries, whatever suits your fancy) might be the standard for radcon experts, but they are no where near as ubiquitous as kilometers. Besides, why don't we use megameters? The general public is apparantly able to fathom the difference between megabyte and gigabyte, why not use standard terminology for everything?

      --
      When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
    6. Re:2.7 million picocuries by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Oddly, if you were an astronomer, you'd express it in centimeters....

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    7. Re:2.7 million picocuries by Animats · · Score: 3, Informative

      That's good. That reading is a sump inside the plant. It's about the level of the process water, so it's near the leak. They're getting close.

      The hazardous readings are all within the plant perimeter. Additional monitoring of off-site wells has been started (ten locations are normally monitored by the State of Vermont, but monthly) and those aren't showing any significant radioactivity.

    8. Re:2.7 million picocuries by Mitchell314 · · Score: 1

      The general public probably still thinks that a gigabyte is only 1000 megabytes.

      --
      I read TFA and all I got was this lousy cookie
    9. Re:2.7 million picocuries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm not sure if you're joking, but a gigabyte is only 1000 megabytes. You're only lying to yourself if you think otherwise.

    10. Re:2.7 million picocuries by sabernet · · Score: 1

      Pfft, I've been using "decahectometers" ever since I saw the term "megagig" on Smallville.

    11. Re:2.7 million picocuries by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      Can't we just say 2.7 microcuries now?

      Only if we can also say that it is mixed with dihydrogen monoxide so that it sounds especially menacing; a veritable toxic stew that will have your kids glowing in the dark from 10 miles away! No more nuclear power...boo.

    12. Re:2.7 million picocuries by rhyder128k · · Score: 1

      It's common practice, yes. Unless you were a console manufacturer in the 80s.

      --
      Michael Reed, freelance tech writer.
    13. Re:2.7 million picocuries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I did the math on this (looking at wikipedia) - 2.7 million picocuries is 135 times the legal limit of 20000 picocuries, which was set to a level which only incurs about 4 mrem of radiation exposure per year. That means that you get exposed to 135x4=540 mrem, or 0.54 rem... and apparently anything under 100 rem is not dangerous.

      It doesn't hurt that tritium gets eliminated from the body pretty easily, so it doesn't build up and cause cumulative exposure.

      Of course, they probably did all that math themselves, which is why they've been so recklessly lax about fixing it. Bad authorities, no biscuit.

    14. Re:2.7 million picocuries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I like to express my height in KM on anything official that requires my height.

      6'7 = 200cm = 2/1000km (approximate figures). Is it convenient? No, but chicks dig it.

    15. Re:2.7 million picocuries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      thought it was 1024

    16. Re:2.7 million picocuries by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 1

      that is called a gibibyte. Yes, it sounds funny, but hey, it's he standard :)

    17. Re:2.7 million picocuries by Z34107 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In the context of storage, a gigabyte is 1024 megabytes.

      In the context of networking, a gigabit is 1000 megabits.

      In the context of physics, a giga-something is 1,000,000,000-something. Physics doesn't measure gravity in bits or bytes.

      Next up in words that have different meanings in different jargons: Hacking

      </troll>

      --
      DATABASE WOW WOW
    18. Re:2.7 million picocuries by jadin · · Score: 1

      The safety limit is listed in picocuries, so keeping the current level in picocuries is logical. Call me lazy, but I don't want to do even simple math to figure out that yes, the current level is much higher than the safety limit.

    19. Re:2.7 million picocuries by jadin · · Score: 1

      Preemptive strike: don't want to do even a simple conversion*

      Since comparing two numbers probably qualifies as "simple math".

    20. Re:2.7 million picocuries by agnosticnixie · · Score: 3, Informative

      No, that's because incults who don't realize that the OS counts in binary and the makers in metric (which IBM already did in the 80s) sue.

    21. Re:2.7 million picocuries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why 1024 do you ask? Cause computers work in binary and there are 8 bits to a byte and it goes from there with the counting. 1024 is actually 2 to the 8th power (2^8)

      1024 = 2^10. Also, I think you meant petabyte, not pedabyte.

    22. Re:2.7 million picocuries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless you run OSX 10.6 - which counts storage in base10 not base2.

    23. Re:2.7 million picocuries by Onymous+Coward · · Score: 1

      It's the confusion caused by units which change depending on context that warrants the advent of distinguishing units. What do you do when the context information isn't entirely clear or isn't available or, worse still, changes?

      We've now got megabytes and mebibytes.

      Since semantic overloading is generally bad, I recommend saving mega for its original meaning only. Thoughts?

    24. Re:2.7 million picocuries by Z34107 · · Score: 1

      To risk further trolling, "mega" in the context of storage and memory has been (mis)used as powers of two for far longer than mebi has existed.

      The only reason to redefine it is to make SI purists happy, and so that Hitachi can continue to rip us off by ~7% of advertised storage.

      --
      DATABASE WOW WOW
    25. Re:2.7 million picocuries by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      Call me lazy, but I don't want to do even simple math to figure out that yes, the current level is much higher than the safety limit.

      Actually, from TFA, it's not. The groundwater level at the plant is higher than the safety limit for drinking water. But since noone gets drinking water from under the nuke plant, saying that the level under the plant is higher than the limit for drinking water is misleading, though literally true.

      What they did ass sort of like saying "the truck was caught driving at 70 mph on I10, even though the speed limit on West Esplanade is only 30 mph." True, but not strictly relevant.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    26. Re:2.7 million picocuries by Fallen+Kell · · Score: 1

      No because that number doesn't sound as big...

      --
      We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
    27. Re:2.7 million picocuries by abhi_beckert · · Score: 1

      As it says in wikipedia, 1GB == 1 billion bytes, and historically it was 1.07 billion bytes.

      Most operating systems have switched to 1GB == 1000MB, 1MB == 1000KB, including Mac OS X and Ubuntu.

      Windows is still using 1024, but that's only because microsoft resists change, even when it makes sense. No doubt they will also start using the proper value in a future version of windows.

    28. Re:2.7 million picocuries by jadin · · Score: 1

      I agree. But you missed the entire point of my post.

      What they did sort of like saying "the truck was caught driving at 70 mph on I10, even though the speed limit on West Esplanade is only 30 mph." True, but not strictly relevant.

      "the truck was caught driving at 369600 fph on I10, even though the speed limit on West Esplanade is only 30 mph." See my point yet?

    29. Re:2.7 million picocuries by ukemike · · Score: 1

      Can't we just say 2.7 microcuries now?

      Mostly because the EPA standard is expressed in picocuries and it is easiest for most people to interpret the data when they don't have to do a unit conversion. Hell I'm in the business of environmental consulting and I had to look up the difference between micro and pico.

      --
      -- QED
    30. Re:2.7 million picocuries by agnosticnixie · · Score: 1

      It was already that way in the 80s; IBM has never sold non-metric measured hard drives.

    31. Re:2.7 million picocuries by HiddenCamper · · Score: 1

      The corrective action process which nuclear plants use to self-police isnt exactly the fastest thing unless they think there's a health/safety issue. If they detected tritium in water which was used for drinking it would have been escalated. I'm sure it is now.

    32. Re:2.7 million picocuries by toddestan · · Score: 1

      Most operating systems have switched to 1GB == 1000MB, 1MB == 1000KB, including Mac OS X and Ubuntu.

      You'll note that's only for disk space. Both of those OSes consider 1GB = 1024MB and 1MB = 1024kB when reporting ram sizes. In that sense, at least Windows is consistent.

    33. Re:2.7 million picocuries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Newsflash: the LHC has just finished measuring the spin of this article.

      The results aren't pretty...

    34. Re:2.7 million picocuries by tygt · · Score: 1

      1024 is actually 2 to the 8th power (2^8)

      2^8 == 256 ; 2^10 == 1024.

    35. Re:2.7 million picocuries by RzUpAnmsCwrds · · Score: 1

      In the context of storage, a gigabyte is 1024 megabytes.

      Better tell the hard drive manufacturers. Or the flash drive manufacturers. Or the DVD or Blu-ray associations. Or Mac OS X. Or the IEEE. Or the ACM.

      A gigabyte is 1000 megabytes in pretty much every case except Windows and byte-addressed memory (NOR flash and DRAM).

  8. Downstream? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Where does the water flow? Does it flow south, toward Boston? Or, does it flow north toward Montreal and Quebec?

    There are a lot of people that could be affected by this.

    1. Re:Downstream? by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      The plant is in extreme southeastern Vermont, near the Connecticut River, which flows south to Long Island Sound. Springfield, MA and Hartford, CT are on the river. Boston does not get water from the Connecticut River.

  9. How many lives? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How many lives are put at risk when we take a large electrical generation plant off-line? Very tough to calculate, because the impact is so distributed, but there are concrete consequences, none the less.

    1. Re:How many lives? by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Odds are they'll just ramp up capacity at a more expensive power plant.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    2. Re:How many lives? by raehl · · Score: 1

      there are concrete consequences

      Did someone invent concrete that runs on electricity?

  10. actually, the levels only doubled by YesIAmAScript · · Score: 4, Informative

    The article says the levels in the well from before doubled and are still below the federal level. Levels at another existing well dropped. And a new well was drilled to try to find the leak and it has a much higher concentration of tritium.

    Unless you're drinking from the new well (and no one is, it's a test well), this doesn't really affect you at all. It's not like you're getting 37x as much radiation now (at least as far as the data we have says). And it's part of the process of finding the leak and fixing it.

    --
    http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
    1. Re:actually, the levels only doubled by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      How nice from the contaminated ground water to stay inside those wells .... oh wait, d'ooh it doesnt!

      this will move to other areas, and do not forget that the water might be drunk and while we humans can take a little radiation -outside- our bodies, having this stuff in water we drink is a big recipe for cancer (and do not forget, radiation levels are cumulated over time in our bodies - they do not get lower, they add together!)

    2. Re:actually, the levels only doubled by DaveGod · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes, the drinking-water limit isn't particularly useful, since these levels aren't being found in drinking water. As such we should be comparing to "safe" limits for the scenario (or at least levels for the "general environment*").

      I think drinking water levels however are often used - seemingly out of context - in this way because they are perceived as more reliable. People reason that much more scrutiny would be placed on whether something is safe for human consumption than for any other purpose. They then have to evaluate themselves how unsafe it has to be to drink for it to be unsafe or damaging to the environment*.

      People are more inclined to rely on a piece of trustworthy information that has to be brought into relevance by their own inexpert/vague estimation than they are to rely on a piece of untrustworthy information regardless of how relevant. Sometimes there's a thin blurry line between ignorance and a healthy dose of scepticism.

      * I use the term "environment" quite loosely, some people may be thinking of the cute bunny-rabbits while others may be thinking about crop yield. The distinction isn't really relevant to the point.

    3. Re:actually, the levels only doubled by khallow · · Score: 1

      and do not forget, radiation levels are cumulated over time in our bodies - they do not get lower, they add together!

      Citation needed.

    4. Re:actually, the levels only doubled by YesIAmAScript · · Score: 3, Informative

      Of course it doesn't stay in those wells, that's how it was found in the other well too. And it's surely in other wells even further away, just at lower concentrations.

      That's why they're looking for the source of the leak by drilling more wells. Once they find the leak they can fix it.

      Some say they should shut down the plant while they find the leak. Which is an interesting concept. Do you know how they find leaks in underground pipes? They put in radioactive tracers and then detect for it.

      http://www.darvill.clara.net/nucrad/uses.htm

      So, as long as the levels of radiation at wells outside the plant are low enough it's safe to keep running the plant while the leak is found.

      Also, radiation doesn't build up in your body. There is a model for body damage from radiation that counts cumulative exposure over a long period. But that isn't because the radiation stays in your body the whole time, it's because the damage from the radiation takes a long time to repair so it's useful mathematically to sum it up over time.

      Either way, the radiation levels have not increased 37x. The danger has not increased 37x. There's not even information (at this time) that the leak has grown at all, they're just measuring at a new spot. This would be like jumping in a pool at the shallow end and saying it's 3 feet deep, then walking to the deep end and saying the pool got deeper. It was 6 feet deep at that end before, you just didn't measure it in that spot before.

      I hope they get this problem fixed soon.

      --
      http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
    5. Re:actually, the levels only doubled by sjames · · Score: 1

      EXACTLY!

      I'd be a lot more concerned if they weren't able to find a location with a high reading since that would mean they had no clue where it was coming from. It looks like they're on-track for fixing the leak before any radiation leaves the grounds. Exactly what we want them to do.

      I can't help imagining an all too likely true scenario. One operator is overheard saying to another, "I think we may have a public relations problem". Next day the headline reads "PROBLEM AT NUCLEAR PLANT, OPERATORS UNSURE!!!"

    6. Re:actually, the levels only doubled by ukemike · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The problem is that underground plumes of bad stuff spread over time. If you discover the contamination before it gets dangerous and you stop the leak it may be that the levels in water that is used by people never gets above the regulatory limit. If you let it sit it won't be long before people are drinking water with many times the the EPA limit.

      One thing that always bothers me about these environmental stories is that when some Chemical X is reported to be floating around, it's never 20% over the regulatory limit, or even twice the limit, it is always at least one order of magnitude too high. The regulatory limit may be conservative, but I really doubt it has a safety factor of 37 built in.

      --
      -- QED
    7. Re:actually, the levels only doubled by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      radiation doesn't, but the heavy elements that are radioactive do build up in the body.

    8. Re:actually, the levels only doubled by HiddenCamper · · Score: 0

      Shutting it down just makes it harder to find the leak, since they wont be producing radioisotopes to use, and they will be using less water, therefore they will be leaking much less. They should keep running. Right now its not putting anyone in danger.

  11. we do not apply limits by anonieuweling · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We have a limit, apparently, but of course we do not act in case we go over it.
    Is the limit still a limit in that case?

    1. Re:we do not apply limits by maxume · · Score: 1

      They are actively investigating the problem (with the likely intention of fixing it...).

      The operational limit is probably what it is because there is no reason for a plant to be leaking much tritium, not because they determined a particular level to be hugely dangerous.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    2. Re:we do not apply limits by HiddenCamper · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually they did act. They noticed the rates increasing. They added more wells and kept testing to locate the problem. They are self-policing and reporting using their corrective action process. Going over a limit will get them a hefty fine, but all things considered when a problem just pops up like this you dont know where its at and you have little control over it. They are doing the right things.

    3. Re:we do not apply limits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a limit for DRINKING WATER. Are anybody going dig a well there and drink it?

    4. Re:we do not apply limits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The limit does not apply because the limit is for drinking water and no tritium has been found in any drinking water. It is supposed to give you perspective, like when a guy gets drunk and commits a crime and the paper says he was 3 times the legal driving limit but he wasn't driving. I think they need a new way to put this in perspective...

  12. Tritrium in water? Unacceptable. by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Why do we Americans put up with this kind of nonsense? How can anyone phoo phoo off something as serious as tritrium in drinking water?

    As true Americans who cherish tradition, we should always take our raioactive elements in the traditional way. First mine it with coal, then burn it in a furnace, disperse it through smoke and then ingest it via the lungs. That is the American way. One second before you mod me down as a Luddite, remember I do support modern innovations, like mountain top removal and long wall mining.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:Tritrium in water? Unacceptable. by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 2, Funny

      How can anyone phoo phoo...

      I wonder how Stewie Griffin would pronounce this.

  13. Ignore the limits because they're cautious? by Dragoniz3r · · Score: 1

    So we've got these standards and limits on the amounts of toxic chemicals we allow into our drinking water (and thus bodies), and we build a little bit of extra "caution" in, to make EXTRA sure that we don't accidentally poison ourselves... and then our public officials ignore these limits and standards because they're "cautious"? Really now?

    NRC spokeswoman should be given a hands-on lesson in why we include safety padding in these matters.

  14. How are they allowed to keep running? by Pete+Venkman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I was under the impression that the whole purpose of testing groundwater was to find and STOP contamination. If they've repeatedly failed this test, how are they allowed to continue operations?

  15. to all the nuclear proponents by cats-paw · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I suppose when this sort of thing happens you'll be ok with taxpayers paying the clean-up costs ?

    I think nuclear is something we're going to have to use, but I am _extremely_ worried it's going to be another privatize the gains and socialize the losses deal.

    --
    Absolute statements are never true
    1. Re:to all the nuclear proponents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean, like all our energy today? How does that have any bearing on nuclear power?

    2. Re:to all the nuclear proponents by Urza9814 · · Score: 1

      This isn't a serious problem, and taxpayers _aren't_ paying for it.

      But if it _was_ a serious problem, then yes, taxpayers should pay for it. Just like taxpayers pay for it if my house catches on fire. And taxpayers would pay for it if a wind turbine collapsed, and taypayers pay to clean up the pollution left by coal plants and coal mining. You do realize that cleaning up the acid mine drainage from coal mines is mostly paid by taxes, right?

      If it's a small leak or a small accident, then yes, the plant should and will pay for it. But in a serious emergency, do you really _want_ them to take care of it? The government has more training in disaster management, and they have more resources. Plus I'm not really gonna trust the people that caused the problem to fix it properly. So yes, taxes pay for disaster relief. That's the way it's always been. But when was the last time there was a disaster at a nuclear plant in the US? I can give you several places where the government is paying to clean up after coal just within a few miles of my house. But the only instance of them cleaning up after nuclear that I can think of is Three Mile Island. And that wasn't exactly expensive.

    3. Re:to all the nuclear proponents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      I'd prefer tritanium over mercury, but then I don't have a choice in that matter whether coal power plants spew mercury/thorium/uranium all over me. Who pays those cleanup costs?

      Seriously, tritanium is also known as Hydrogen (2n+p). Half life is short (12 years if I remember correctly). It dilutes. Biological half life is 10 days or something like that. But who needs real information if there is you got fear?

    4. Re:to all the nuclear proponents by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      I think nuclear is something we're going to have to use, but I am _extremely_ worried it's going to be another privatize the gains and socialize the losses deal.

      That's because our system doesn't really respect private property rights. If the Yankee plant leaks into private wells, each well owner should be able to sue Yankee for the full value of that land and anything on it. If it's critical the whole Town is up for compensation. Whole towns are so expensive that it's cheaper to just do maintenance.

      If it gets into the Connecticut River (adjacent) the owner of the River should be able to sue Yankee for the full value of the river from that point south. But, oh, wait, the river only belongs to the 'State' of NH and they're not going to do anything about it.

      (I understand the Yankee plant leak isn't that bad, but the mechanistic problems here are the concern).

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    5. Re:to all the nuclear proponents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      This isn't a serious problem, and taxpayers _aren't_ paying for it.

      But if it _was_ a serious problem, then yes, taxpayers should pay for it. Just like taxpayers pay for it if my house catches on fire.

      Yes and no. Taxpayers only pay to stop the fire (so it doesn't spread to other taxpayers' houses). Your insurance (if you have it) pays to repair/rebuild your losses.

      And taxpayers would pay for it if a wind turbine collapsed

      ...? Really? Why would taxpayers pay if a privately owned tower collapsed on privately owned land? Just because it's big???

      and taypayers pay to clean up the pollution left by coal plants and coal mining. You do realize that cleaning up the acid mine drainage from coal mines is mostly paid by taxes, right?

      Governments were unaware or paid off by various coal companies to ignore the problem for years. Legislation wasn't in place to force the coal company to account for the environmental cost of producing power from coal. Do tax payers pay for it? Yes. Should they? No.

      If it's a small leak or a small accident, then yes, the plant should and will pay for it. But in a serious emergency, do you really _want_ them to take care of it?

      Are you arguing about who is going to _DO_ it or who is going to PAY for it? There IS a difference.

      The government has more training in disaster management, and they have more resources. Plus I'm not really gonna trust the people that caused the problem to fix it properly. So yes, taxes pay for disaster relief. That's the way it's always been.

      Working backwards: argument by tradition??? (tossed)
      Yes the government is better at this, and certainly I trust them more to fix the problem better than the company that caused the problem. However, that shouldn't prevent the government from saddling the company and the owners with the cost of fixing their mess.

      But when was the last time there was a disaster at a nuclear plant in the US?

      Umm, beyond right now you mean? How about the problems they had during the great eastern power outage a few years back?

      I can give you several places where the government is paying to clean up after coal just within a few miles of my house. But the only instance of them cleaning up after nuclear that I can think of is Three Mile Island. And that wasn't exactly expensive.

      Not expensive? "The cleanup of the damaged nuclear reactor system at TMI-2 took nearly 12 years and cost approximately US$973 million. "
      Even now 1 Billion dollars is not something to sneeze at. That's what it cost from 1979 to 1991.

      Taxes ARE NOT government insurance for corporations. Taxes are payed by individuals of society for the benefit of the individuals of that society. The government is not an insurance company for other companies, despite what they currently seem to think.

    6. Re:to all the nuclear proponents by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You do realize that cleaning up the acid mine drainage from coal mines is mostly paid by taxes, right?

      If it's a small leak or a small accident, then yes, the plant should and will pay for it. But in a serious emergency, do you really _want_ them to take care of it? The government has more training in disaster management, and they have more resources. Plus I'm not really gonna trust the people that caused the problem to fix it properly. So yes, taxes pay for disaster relief. That's the way it's always been.

      And that's why we keep having abuses.

      The trouble is these mines are on so-called 'public' lands. A 'corporation' is given mining rights and the owners have no personal liability, so they don't bother to do it carefully and they don't get sufficient insurance.

      If they were facing polluting private land and the owners were personally responsible, they'd do it right or get sufficient insurance (which would insist on it being done right or have enough money to hire out competent remediation).

      We get this kind of reckless pollution due to multiple bad government policies stacked upon each other. Meanwhile, the mining companies pay off the politicians.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    7. Re:to all the nuclear proponents by sjames · · Score: 1

      You mean when radiation is found at a nuclear plant?

      However, I see your point and agree that either both must be privatized or both must be socialized.

    8. Re:to all the nuclear proponents by sjames · · Score: 1

      Honestly, TMI wasn't a disaster at all. It was a big scare, but certainly not a disaster. That brings the tally of nuclear disasters in the U.S. to 0.

    9. Re:to all the nuclear proponents by selven · · Score: 1

      No, I think the nuclear plants should pay the cleanup costs. Coal plants, however, spew out stuff like this every day, and they should also pay cleanup costs. Socializing the losses, if done evenly, harms nuclear only against wind power and some of the better incarnations of hydro and solar.

    10. Re:to all the nuclear proponents by damien_kane · · Score: 1

      But who needs real information if there is you got fear?

      And who needs grammar when you've got teh intarwebs[sic]?
      Perhaps your argument would carry more weight if you actually called the isotope by its real name, tritium, instead of some made-up metal that you decided to call it. Of course, it's not like you could have known its real name; it's only mentioned a few hundred times in this discussion, let alone TFA and TFS.

  16. how low can you go? by smoothnorman · · Score: 1

    "At what level...?" is always an curious legalistic way to go about the question. I'd reply "as low as possible", that is, it becomes an engineering/economic question, not a biochemical one. How low a leakage of tritium (not good for human ingestion at any level) is feasible? and/or: i'll wager they can do much better than where it currently stands.

  17. Nobody's drinking it by Sowelu · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The water they're testing is, by federal limits, not drinkable. That said, the water they're testing is not drinking water. If this stuff was getting anywhere that humans were going to drink it, that would be a very serious problem...but they're saying that doesn't seem likely. So no, they're not ignoring the limits. They should act quickly, yes, but still.

  18. I know it's a troll but ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Every time I'm told how safe nuclear power is something like this happens. The problem they have is the materials are very corrosive and they tend eat through metal and concrete over time. The pipes are buried and the leaks aren't easy to find or fix. Not all the plants use this system but this was one of the plant designs that was considered "safe". Also Hanford has been back in the news because they are dealing with millions of gallons of contaminated water that is slowly leaking. Any time now the ground water is expected to reach a major river. A lot of the contamination comes from processing plants not even reactors. When I was in LA there was contaminated ground water in Canoga Park at several different sites. For something that is so "safe" there sure is a lot of contamination already. People say we can replace all other sources with nuclear power. That would mean 5X as many plants. Worse yet all the existing plants have reached or are nearing their design life. I believe most of the leaking plants are at or nearing their design life. They are trying to extend the licensing on most of the existing plants but is that really a smart idea since many are leaking even without adding 20+ years to them? I know Slashdot is pro nuke and wary of other sources but I've yet to hear of a solar plant or a wind farm contaminating ground water. There's a lot of open desert that is perfect for solar and we have a massive untapped resource in roof tops. There was an intriguing idea of converting roads to solar collectors. For wind most of the power is used along the coast. Offshore wind farms could provide a lot of our power all on their own. It gets rid of most of the bird kill and eyesore issues and the wind is more constant. There are solutions out there that don't involve poisoning groundwater which may one day be a being a bigger need than power.

    1. Re:I know it's a troll but ... by Faerunner · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You said yourself that most of the currently operating plants in the US are ancient (by nuclear power standards). Newer tech and newer plants would be many times safer and less likely to leak. Replacing the old plants with new ones, or simply building new ones nearby and shutting the old ones down as soon as possible would be a good choice, but many people point to the old plants as examples (as you're doing) without regard for the fact that a new, re-engineered plant wouldn't have any of the problems the 30-year-old ones are having. And in 30 years, I'm sure we'll have the capacity to build even more and better plants, or improve the ones we have so that they will last. The problem is getting past the folks who think that an old standard is the only standard.

    2. Re:I know it's a troll but ... by sjames · · Score: 1

      Interestingly it's hard to build a new plant because of the intense public panic caused by hrm....A perfect public safety record for the old plants?!? I don't claim there have been no problems, just that unlike coal plants, no member of the public has ever been harmed by a U.S. nuclear plant.

    3. Re:I know it's a troll but ... by HiddenCamper · · Score: 1

      Reactor grade water is not corrosive at all, in fact it is extremely pure. Now there is radiation in it, but there's nothing that would necessarily cause pipe embrittlement. Pipes naturally have breaks and leaks over time, and pipes at a power plant are designed to leak before break to prevent an accident from happening. As of right now the titrated water hasnt contaminated drinking water supplies. they are test wells that all plants have to check for this kind of thing. Now if they said they found tritium in the nearby lakes and rivers i would be concerned (this coming from someone who lives next to the hanford site). Also, the radioactive waste water at hanford, they are worried it could reach the aquafer underneath it within the next 15-20 years. plenty of time to clean it up. The contamination that would get in the river wouldnt be as bad as the stuff they were spilling in there 40-50 years ago.

  19. Tritium leak monitoring by cronb · · Score: 1

    When something like this happens the plant monitors the flow of the tritium into the aquifer, river, etc. VERY carefully. If those levels rise above set limits then they have to shut down. However, right now they most likely just have to pay a daily fine to operate and that fine is less than the cost of shutdown prior to the fuel reaching the desired burnup. They will most likely continue to operate unless they see a rise above safe levels in the groundwater or the river that is used for cooling.

  20. Not A Major Concern by echusarcana · · Score: 1, Informative

    A light water reactor isn't capable of producing much tritium since hydrogen has to absorb two neutrons to become it. Since it doesn't exist in nature any amount, no matter how small, is detectable. Not really a concern. You would most likely get more radiation exposure from coal.

    1. Re:Not A Major Concern by hey! · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's a bit worrying that standards were set, but after they were violated we hear that it's no big deal. You can't argue that is consistent with effective and rational regulation. Either (a) the standards were set irrationally low, or (b) the public's interests are being shortchanged here.

      It is quite possible for both to be true. Allowing silly, unenforceable regulations means that you don't have any rationally defensible ones when you need them.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    2. Re:Not A Major Concern by maxume · · Score: 1

      It could simply be the case that containing the tritium is relatively easy, meaning that the regulatory level is far below the dangerous level.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    3. Re:Not A Major Concern by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      It's a bit worrying that standards were set, but after they were violated we hear that it's no big deal. You can't argue that is consistent with effective and rational regulation. Either (a) the standards were set irrationally low, or (b) the public's interests are being shortchanged here.

      If you set the standard to be right below the dangerous level it would mean that any time anything went even slightly wrong, the concentration could easily rise to an unhealthy level. Also for poisonous things the amount somebody gets can vary quite a lot. Some people could be especially sensitive, or consume more water than average.

      The smart thing would be to set the maximum allowed limit high enough above that there isn't a panic every time somebody accidentally flushes a glass of the wrong thing down the drain, but low enough that if something unusual happens, alarms are triggered before people start getting sick.

      So, in this case, tritium isn't found in nature in any significant amounts due to its very short half life. So any time you can find anything beyond a very tiny amount of it would mean that something somewhere went wrong. Even if it's nowhere near the unhealthy amount, a leak at a nuclear power plant can't be a good thing.

    4. Re:Not A Major Concern by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ummm, while you are correct that in a light water reactor virtually no tritium is created by hydrogen absorbing two neutrons, there are like 5 or 6 other ways that tritium is created in a reactor, all of which create much more tritium than the method you mentioned. I beleive the leading cause of tritium creation in a reactor is by direct fissioning of uranium. The end result is that light water reactors create a fair amount of tritium.

    5. Re:Not A Major Concern by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, but you are wrong, tritium can be harvested from your TAP WATER. Now run and make up some more FUD, about something you know little or nothing about. Deuterium is also present in tap water, as well---panic now and beat the rush!

    6. Re:Not A Major Concern by sjames · · Score: 1

      The standards are for drinking water. Nobody is drinking that water, it's from a test well on the plant grounds.

  21. Wait for the 3 eyed fish to show up before going i by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    Wait for the 3 eyed fish to show up before going in and go to sector 7g at the start.

    ---MR X

  22. Re:If only Howard dean was still gov. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  23. Recent ads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I live in southern NH, and to be honest, I'm barely aware of VY's existence (after all, they don't supply my electricity).
    But I've noticed in recent months that these marketing ads for VY have been showing on the local cable TV touting
    their http://iamvy.com/ website. I had wondered for what reasons they needed to self-promote, but this latest chain of events
    certainly can't be helping.

  24. Now everyone go to your corners and rant. by Vellmont · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Far-Right:
    There's nothing to see here, it's just those damn liberals and their whining about nuclear power. It's all perfectly safe, there's absolutely no problems whats-so-ever with this plant or any other plant. A possible indicator of other problems around the country? Pshaw.. more liberal clap-trap. We can fix all our power problems with just building a lot of nuclear plants. Waste schmaste.

    Far-Left:
    This is just PROOF that the nuclear power industry are all a bunch of bastard weasels. We ought to shut the whole shootin-match down for good. We can get all of our power from wind and solar anyway. 37 times the standard! I bet the standard is set too high anyway! These plants are all rotting from neglect, and there's probably a ton they're not telling us! I recently saw The China Syndrome and Silkwood, and let me tell you that's all just the tip of the iceberg! Chernobyl!

    I'm just really sick of the nonsense on both sides. They both insulate themselves from the other and don't want to hear any real truths from "the other side". The whole nuclear power issue is 90% a "side of the room argument" where nobody wants to be associated with an idea from "the other side". This is what needs to stop to make any progress on the whole issue.

    --
    AccountKiller
    1. Re:Now everyone go to your corners and rant. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      left/right? lol!

      Do you also believe that santa and the tooth fairy are real?

    2. Re:Now everyone go to your corners and rant. by damburger · · Score: 1

      I'm an old leftie and a fan of nuclear power, so you can't categorise it like that. However, you are right about extreme reactions. There is Tritium in the groundwater. This is bad, needs to be handled, and isn't in any way shape or form a reason not to use nuclear power.

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    3. Re:Now everyone go to your corners and rant. by Myopic · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I was astonished the first time I realized that typical 'environmentalist' groups oppose nuclear power. That blows my mind. To this day I can't figure out how a focus on the environment would lead you *away* from nuclear power, when it is so clearly the safest way to produce abundant electricity with minimal environmental impact.

    4. Re:Now everyone go to your corners and rant. by Vellmont · · Score: 1


      I'm an old leftie and a fan of nuclear power, so you can't categorise it like that.

      All categories are wrong in some fashion. You can call it "pro-nuclear" and "anti-nuclear" if you like. The labels are irrelevant. The whole point is the insulation and people digging in their viewpoints. Being labeled a "troll" only highlights this point.

      --
      AccountKiller
    5. Re:Now everyone go to your corners and rant. by Vellmont · · Score: 1


      I was astonished the first time I realized that typical 'environmentalist' groups oppose nuclear power.

      To some degree it's an artifact of the sidedness of politics. Nuclear power is associated with nuclear weapons (right or wrong, people think of them in the same breath). Nuclear weapons are "bad" for the "the left", and "good" for "the right". Most people have no real understanding anything about nuclear power or nuclear reactions so they turn to these kind of simple associations and dig in for the long fight. It's more complicated that this, but it's all driven by fear.

      The real problems with nuclear power largely boil down to cost, and waste. The waste isn't going away anytime soon, and we're going to have to deal with it eventually. Every administration just kicks the waste problem down the road, and hopes someone else has to eventually deal with it. The cost issue I don't know much about, but it's also one that's not going away.

      --
      AccountKiller
    6. Re:Now everyone go to your corners and rant. by dgatwood · · Score: 2, Interesting

      With modern nuclear plants, I'd agree. Unfortunately, the U.S. has no modern nuclear plants, and the existing reactors are often well past the age where any conventional plant would have been completely gutted and rebuild, but they don't do that because these things are so darn expensive and you'd never be able to get permission to start it up again once you shut it down anyway. We should be building new nuclear power plants and shutting down these fossils.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    7. Re:Now everyone go to your corners and rant. by bwcbwc · · Score: 1

      Hear hear. Yes the limits are being exceeded - a lot -, but the limits have not been exceeded outside the plant perimeter (yet). No actual drinking water has been found to be contaminated. The problem is being investigated, and it looks like they are close to finding the leak. Their latest sample well came up at pretty much the concentration of the raw tritium in the plant.

      On the other hand, if they know where tritium _can_ come from, they should be able to estimate the size of the leak based on how much is missing. It's alarming that no one has documented those numbers yet. And regardless of how much leaked out, there's a good chance the ground water for miles around the plant will have to be monitored for decades to come.

      --
      We are the 198 proof..
    8. Re:Now everyone go to your corners and rant. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not entirely irrelevant, as it highlights the fact that the only prejudices you're exposing are your own.

    9. Re:Now everyone go to your corners and rant. by winwar · · Score: 1

      To quote from the article:

      "On Jan. 7, it was reported that radioactive tritium was leaking from the Vernon reactor into groundwater; the source of the leak has not been found. The following week, it was revealed that Entergy officials had misled state regulators and lawmakers several times in 2008 and 2009 by saying Vermont Yankee did not have the type of underground pipes that could carry tritium."

      So, they haven't found the leak and there is no indication that they are close to finding it. In addition, they repeatedly claimed in the past that they couldn't have such a leak. I find that more than a little troubling and alarming.

      Nuclear power is safe when designed, built and run by competent people. At least one of those things is missing here (you can argue about the others). In any case, if some of their pipes are leaking, how many other pipes that have been in service for decades are nearing the end of their life and aren't being sought out via preventive maintenance? This is the poster child for the troubles of nuclear power in the US-you hand the industry an opportunity on a silver platter and they choke on it while stealing the platter.

    10. Re:Now everyone go to your corners and rant. by wrook · · Score: 1

      The trick is that "far-left" and "far-right" are simply inventions to keep people arguing about trivial matters. So occupied, the masses don't realize what is actually happening in the circles of power. It amuses me that American media is always so polarized. The even hire people to take up "far-right" and "far-left" stances and argue on camera. Given the vitriol engendered in their arguments, viewers mistakenly believe that the topics are important. This allows policy makers to carry on with their agenda without interference from the unwashed masses.

    11. Re:Now everyone go to your corners and rant. by Vellmont · · Score: 1


      The trick is that "far-left" and "far-right" are simply inventions to keep people arguing about trivial matters.

      That's odd. I know people that fall on both sides of the spectrum. I guess they must be figments of my imagination.

      It amuses me that American media is always so polarized. The even hire people to take up "far-right" and "far-left" stances and argue on camera. Given the vitriol engendered in their arguments, viewers mistakenly believe that the topics are important.

      You're close. Viewers mistakenly believe that these are actual opinions held by "the other side". It makes people think that they're right, and the other side wrong. People like that, and will watch the show tomorrow. They also feel they've "seen both sides of the issue" so they're "informed". This is largely Fox News, but MSNBC has taken up the crazy charge of "the left". Some of these issues are VERY important, but all you need do is inject some crazy craze into the conversation and pretend that and what you're saying are the only two things that exist.

      --
      AccountKiller
    12. Re:Now everyone go to your corners and rant. by evilviper · · Score: 1

      I don't claim to know why, but /. has become far more politicized in the past few years. It was certainly never perfect, but discussions about any issue included far more information, and far less ranting, yelling and baseless assertions.

      Since you can still find plenty of the later (good) comments around here, I can only conclude the moderation pool has shifted to people who are much more persuaded by arguments rather than information. And we see both sides getting prominence, oddly enough. It's a shame the two extremes can't just cancel each other out.

      It could be demographics shifting, it could be editors pandering, or it could just be slashcode or layout change influencing who does and doesn't moderate/metamoderate. But I'm every bit as tired of it as you are. /. was always much more technical, and much less political than today. And while it certainly wasn't perfect, particularly as individuals and groups managed to twist the mod system to their advantage and noise was occasionally masking out the signal, I'd still say we're getting the short shrift these days, as this crap is gradually degrading /. into the same cesspool as every other large blog (with comments) on the planet.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    13. Re:Now everyone go to your corners and rant. by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      I was astonished the first time I realized that typical 'environmentalist' groups oppose nuclear power. That blows my mind. To this day I can't figure out how a focus on the environment would lead you *away* from nuclear power, when it is so clearly the safest way to produce abundant electricity with minimal environmental impact.

      How appropriate your user name is.

      The problem with nuclear power is not the short term pollution problem, as obviously it is cleaner than coal or oil (barring accidents). It's the long term problem of the disposal of radioactive waste.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    14. Re:Now everyone go to your corners and rant. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know you didn't directly state it (so please correct me if I'm reading you incorrectly), but are you claiming that coal and oil cause less long-term waste than nuclear power? I can't imagine how this is remotely possible.

      We have two methods to deal with our current high level radioactive waste, both of which have some functional examples in the real world.

      1) Throw more neutrons at it. It is radioactive for a long period of time because we haven't caused some of the energy-heavy atoms to split yet. Once we make them split, they release more energy that we can use, and then the harmful lifetime goes from thousands of years to hundreds of years (100-300, depending on your source). The French do this.

      2) Bury it. Currently, we store all of our used fuel above ground. This is only possible because nuclear power generates so much electricity out of such a small mass of uranium. A fuel pellet the size of a pencil eraser generates as much heat as 148 gallons of gasoline, and that's without reprocessing it as the French do. Fully reprocessed, we're talking about 3200+ gallons of gasoline to a single pencil eraser sized chunk of fuel. Anyway, if you want to see a working example of burying the stuff, look into the Waste Isolation Pilot Plant (WIPP). It is used for military waste, and it is currently large enough to store all of the nuclear industry's spent fuel.

      Now... think carefully how much waste coal power plants are pumping into the environment. Given the huge difference in mass to energy ratios from nuclear to coal, I can't imagine what would cause you to come to the conclusion that coal generates less long-term waste than nuclear.

    15. Re:Now everyone go to your corners and rant. by jrincayc · · Score: 1

      My theory is that slashdot has three problems. First is that now the only way to see which comments are new is to switch from the dynamic index to the classic index. This makes it harder than before to find the new comments and properly moderate them. It also means that discussions tend to spend a lot of time focusing on subthreads of the first few posts.

      Second is that the requirement that you either moderate or post to an article means that people who actually know what they are talking about only get to choose one option.

      Third is that people who know what they are talking about often have day jobs so by the time they can post, their comments get buried with the noise comments.

  25. Canary in the coal mine by argent · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If the reactor doesn't produce much tritium, then wouldn't that imply that tritium would be a small proportion of the radioactive material released when a leak occurs... but it is detected early because it IS so mobile and easy to detect.

    That is, the tritium itself is not the direct cause for concern, but rather an indicator that will lead to locating the real problem.

    1. Re:Canary in the coal mine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Mod parent up, this is probably the most insightful comment in the thread. Using the tritium as a proxy for scarier things is a great point.

      The amount of tritium they are seeing at this point really isn't a cause for alarm. Microcuries would be worrying, sub-nanocurie quantities in an onsite survey well, not so much. Continually drinking this much in your water could be a problem (hard to say), but if this is a transient problem that gets fixed quickly, what little is onsite will dilute out to irrelevant when it hits the greater water table. At this point public fear of the tritium will likely do more measurable harm than the actual tritium. I'm pretty sure they will evenutally detect it in the water table, but at levels below the limit. There is more significant pollution in a lot of drinking water systems than this, eg. downwind of older coal plants.

      I don't think they need to shut down the plant or fine them or do anything alarmist. However, the plant operators now know undeniably there IS a problem and they need to diagnose and fix it, before it gets worse and it becomes a real problem. Leaks tend to change non-linearly,they should consider tehmselves lucky to get a warning when it is slow and get it fixed pronto. IF they wait, and it gets worse, or even stays the same for more than a few years, they are going to have a massive legal fight. Probably on the legal costs to bankruptcy kind of scale. Willfully ignoring the problem will bite them hard in a few years.

      -sk

    2. Re:Canary in the coal mine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No.

      Tritanium is formed from HYDROGEN. You know, in the WATER. What else is in the water that gets radioactive? Oxygen?

      http://www.webelements.com/oxygen/isotopes.html

      from this data is OBVIOUS as hell that Oxygen cannot get radioactive. So yeah, RADIOACTIVE HYDROGEN which is part of WATER MOLECULE is the only thing that leaks out of some cooling pipe.

      Was that simple enough explanation?

    3. Re:Canary in the coal mine by HiddenCamper · · Score: 1

      Actually oxygen tends to transmute into nitrogen-14. This happens in the reactor core. N-14 only lasts for ~7.5 seconds, but it causes the majority of radiation exposure when a BWR is online. (PWRs dont have as much of a problem because the turbine deck is made of clean water).

    4. Re:Canary in the coal mine by argent · · Score: 1

      I guess you mean 16N (half life ~7.13s).

  26. Gee, I wonder if they're hiding anything? by Jackie_Chan_Fan · · Score: 2

    "Yeah, the water is 37% more deadly.... you should be fine"

    Uh thanks.

    1. Re:Gee, I wonder if they're hiding anything? by bwcbwc · · Score: 1


      Not 37%. 3750%
      750,000 vs. 20,000
      </pedantic>

      --
      We are the 198 proof..
    2. Re:Gee, I wonder if they're hiding anything? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      3700%, but what can possibly go wrong in a nuclear installation when your are off by only two zeros?

    3. Re:Gee, I wonder if they're hiding anything? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, a couple of 0s.

    4. Re:Gee, I wonder if they're hiding anything? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      37x the amount is actually a 3700%, increase still, you should be fine.

    5. Re:Gee, I wonder if they're hiding anything? by Jackie_Chan_Fan · · Score: 1

      shhhhhhhhhhhh... dont point out my errors... Everything is ok. We're all safe now.

  27. Ready with the caulk gun by mswope · · Score: 1

    Where's that leak again?

  28. Acceptable risks by Zemran · · Score: 1

    If one person in one hundred thousand starts to glow in the dark and dies, it is considered an acceptable risk for everyone except that person. No one can prove that that cancer that killed that person was caused by the leak so they can get away with it. It is statistically insignificant. I do not like to think that manslaughter is insignificant but these people think that way.

    --
    I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
    1. Re:Acceptable risks by canajin56 · · Score: 0, Troll

      Man, sounds like you must not own a car. Way more than one in 100,000 people are killed by a car, every year! If you own one, you're basically a murderer. Tell the families of all those dead people that they aren't significant. Oh yeah, plus, bricks or granite emit way more radiation than the water in TFA. Go get a Geiger counter, you'll find that the radiation in TFA isn't IS insignificant compared to normal fluctuations in background radiation. You'll find that, if your counter is accurate enough to measure it out, you'll probably have hotspots that spike way hotter than the water in TFA, which I'll note is not drinking water, it was water sampled from near the plant to try and pinpoint the leak. Actual drinking water contamination is still well below the (highly conservative) safe limit. Plus, there are plenty of places that have naturally radioactive ground water that's way hotter than this, and not only do they not have higher rates of cancer...they have lower rates of cancer, and live longer. The "1 in 100,000" derrives from the linear, no-threshold model of radiation exposure. It says, expose rats to a shit load of radiation, look at their cancer rates. There, now you have two data points, background radiation and baseline rates, shitload of radiation and elevated rates. Bam, done, draw a line, and call it a day. It's quite wrong, and there is lots of evidence that halving the radiation drops the cancer rates by more than one half. And there certainly must be a threshold. Plenty of evidence that, even if high radiation elevation = more cancer, slightly heightened levels = no change / less. But scientists are incredibly terrified of ever saying so. When scientists make the observation that people fed food with 0 lithium always go insane, and places with higher lithium salt levels in their drinking water have substantially lower rates of suicide, Slashdot and the rest of the world exploded with RAGE at their "poor science": "Everybody knows that's medicine, high doses = dangerous, so all doses = dangerous, there's no such thing as safe limits of anything that's ever possibly bad at all ever!" and "OK so you're saying the government should medicate us all with powerful mood stabilizers? WAS THIS STUDY DONE IN GERMANAY????????????"

      --
      ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
  29. They need to stop this fast... by david.given · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...because tritium's really expensive to make and they're wasting it.

    A few years back I bought a bunch of glow-in-the-dark keyrings as stocking fillers for my family. These are little tubes containing tritium. The tritium produces very low energy beta particles, which excite phosphor on the inside of the tube, which cause them to glow. They have a half-life of 12 years, which in effect means that they glow usefully for about five or six years before they need replacing. (I should probably get them new ones.)

    Let me repeat that: it's a little glowing thing that will glow for six years, continuously. They don't need recharging, they don't need their batteries changed, they don't need exposure to sunlight. They're fantastic for safety-critical things like exit signs. My father sails, and he has his tied to the end of the emergency torch on his boat --- it means that if he needs it in a hurry in the dark, he can find it. I know a nurse who uses them to find things in bags of equipment. They're really handy.

    Naturally, they're banned in the US, because they're atomic.

    (Tritium, being hydrogen and really hard to contain, will slowly diffuse out through the walls of the glass tube and into the environment. However there's a tiny, tiny amount of the stuff, and the radioactivity they emit is so weak it won't penetrate six millimetres of air, let alone anything solid. I suppose it is possible to absorb the stuff into the body --- we are largely made of hydrogen, after all --- but the low energies, short half-life and tiny quantities means that you're probably more likely to get radiation damage from Bikini Atoll than your tritium keyring.)

    Incidentally, did you know that after the Chalk River reactor in Canada was shut down in 2009 due to overreaction, there is now a worldwide shortage of medical isotopes? There are only five reactors worldwide, sorry, four now, that produce the stuff. I wonder how many people that shutdown has killed?

    1. Re:They need to stop this fast... by JamesP · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Yeah, you see NUKULAR IS BAAD

      Nuclear idiots prefer to not have medical supplies and choke on smog from coal plants while warming the planet than touching anythin NUKULAR...

      --
      how long until /. fixes commenting on Chrome?
    2. Re:They need to stop this fast... by mobby_6kl · · Score: 1

      The tritium keyrings look pretty cool! I'd love to order some, but does anyone have any experience with shipping these things internationally (into other EU countries, not necessarily to the US)? I'd imagine the "nucular" aspect makes it a pain in the ass to ship (or smuggle), but maybe I'm overestimating the paranoia.

    3. Re:They need to stop this fast... by MoonBuggy · · Score: 5, Informative

      Naturally, they're banned in the US, because they're atomic.

      I'm going to have to give you a [citation needed] for that one, on the basis that United Nuclear (a US company) are still selling them.

    4. Re:They need to stop this fast... by MoonBuggy · · Score: 1

      They are pretty cool! I have one myself, it's pleasantly geeky and damn useful for finding my keys in the dark. The fact I carry it in my pocket makes quite a good prop for explaining why people's "OMG NUKULAR!!" reaction to news stories is mistaken, too. I very much doubt there is any issue with shipping them. The radiation doesn't penetrate the outer casing, so (externally at least) they're basically nothing more than inert lumps of plastic.

      There is some minor possibility that they could leak a minuscule amount more than background radiation, but certainly not enough to be of concern, or to be detectable. Even if you smashed one with a hammer, the Tritium would disperse harmlessly into the air.

      The only thing that could be a problem is the legal side of matters. Say, for example, that (despite their harmlessness) possession of Tritium is technically illegal under your country's terrorism laws. How much do you trust your court system to show common sense if customs happens to Google what's in those glowy things you bought?

    5. Re:They need to stop this fast... by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      Tritium lights are perfectly legal in the United States. Do a google search and there are lots of places that sell them in the US - they are quite common for Exit signs. WalMart was recently fined for improperly disposing of them because they use them in all their stores.

      Your quip about Chalk River is just off-topic flamebait. There's a lot of screwed-up stuff happening on that reactor, and it can't be summarized in this conversation. Suffice it to say, I work with someone who has a lot of experience in CANDU reactors and taking that reactor temporarily offline for maintenance is a very smart thing to do. It it not up to spec.

    6. Re:They need to stop this fast... by greyhueofdoubt · · Score: 1

      Tritium is not banned in the U.S.; I have one of the tritium keychains, a tritium compass, a gun with tritium sights... I don't know, there might be something else I'm forgetting. I have some old cockpit dials that contain radium. My smoke detectors are all radioactive (americium, I think). If I wanted to, I could buy uranium ore, trinitite, and more.

      Heck, check this place out: http://unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2_5

      Note that they are an american company that sells to americans (and other countries, of course).

      -b

      --
      No offense, but I've stopped responding to AC's.
    7. Re:They need to stop this fast... by limaxray · · Score: 3, Informative

      Any American gun owner can tell you that tritium is NOT banned in the US - tritium makes for great night sights and is a common addition for home defense weapons.

    8. Re:They need to stop this fast... by david.given · · Score: 1

      I stand corrected. Thanks for the link --- now I have something to point people at (because they are very cool).

      Interestingly they're considerably cheaper here in the UK. I know the expensive part is the tritium --- they come in two brightnesses which differ only in terms of how much gas they put in. I wonder which of us is being ripped off...

      We also get them in pink, blue and orange as well as green. Green's brightest.

    9. Re:They need to stop this fast... by bwcbwc · · Score: 1

      Nice viral marketing campaign, you two.

      --
      We are the 198 proof..
    10. Re:They need to stop this fast... by IronChef · · Score: 1

      I think that some categories of tritium-powered light sources may not be legal to manufacture in the US, though they seem to be legal to import, sell, and own. Why can I buy a tritium gunsight or exit sign, but those keychains and similar products are so rare?

      If items like the keychains are not legal then the ban isn't enforced. DX ships them here, where they have stopped shipping lasers > 5mW to the US. United Nuclear sells them, as posted, and I've never heard of a private sale shipment getting confiscated by US Customs in the forums where people talk about this stuff.

      (Anyone who wants some of these things, check candlepower forums. A couple of guys there do direct sales and it costs a lot less than what United Nuclear charges.)

    11. Re:They need to stop this fast... by lightperson · · Score: 1

      I don't believe that any tritium needs to migrate out of the glowsticks or anything else where the tritium (hydrogen)is bound into a stable compound. Perhaps Lithium Hydride is stable enough, or perhaps some other compound. Calcium Hydroxide? There are probably 100s of stable minerals, containing hydrogen, exposed to the air that don't decompose to let go of the hydrogen.

    12. Re:They need to stop this fast... by kestasjk · · Score: 1

      775,000 picocuries per liter = 775,000 * 10^-12 * 3.7 * 10^10 decays/second per liter = 28 675 decays/sec per liter

      I'm not sure how energetically tritium decays and cbf looking it up, but I doubt that's enough to emit anything close to enough photons to be visible, which means that compared to those glow sticks the tritium is incredibly dilute.
      I expect the expense in commercial tritium production is creating it in concentrated form, I really doubt the leaked tritium had any significant value.

      --
      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
    13. Re:They need to stop this fast... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    14. Re:They need to stop this fast... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    15. Re:They need to stop this fast... by Nicky+G · · Score: 1

      And they even sell death-ray kits! Oh, I like these guys! http://unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=27_82

    16. Re:They need to stop this fast... by johnny+cashed · · Score: 1

      There are regulations on amounts of tritium that can be used in such devices (in the US). I believe it would be the NRC. If I recall, they specifically prohibit the amounts in said keychains, because they are considered trivial and unimportant devices. An exit sign, illuminated by tritium would not be considered trivial or unimportant, depending on the nature of its installation. Apparently the rules are different in the UK. I have a similar keychain, that I purchased from a vendor in the UK. How United Nuclear gets around it, I don't know. I assume the rules are subject to interpretation to some extent.

      In the US, there is a large market for tritium gun-sights and compass illumination.

    17. Re:They need to stop this fast... by david.given · · Score: 1

      Mention my Slashdot UID while ordering, and receive a FREE stay in the Federal prison of your choice!

    18. Re:They need to stop this fast... by acey72 · · Score: 1

      Tritium lights are great - I bought a couple and taped one to the dog's collar so I don't trip over him at night and one to the toilet seat so I can pee at night without putting the light on. The only thing was I got confused and peed on the dog...

    19. Re:They need to stop this fast... by ukemike · · Score: 1

      When radiation is so weak that it can't even penetrate a few millimeters of air then it is effectively harmless when it is outside of your body. Tritium in drinking water will end up inside your body. All of that radiation will be absorbed by the tissue in the immediate vicinity of the radioactive particle. That cell that ends up containing those few molecules of heavy water will get a huge dose and will be much more likely to mutate. That makes alpha and beta emitters very dangerous once they get inside of your body.

      --
      -- QED
    20. Re:They need to stop this fast... by willutah · · Score: 1

      ...United Nuclear (a US company) are still selling them.

      And 1000 or so Slashdotters just found what to give their loved one for Valentine's Day.

    21. Re:They need to stop this fast... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that even with the massively elevated levels, the yearly exposure from drinking it is still 200x less than what would cause direct medical problems (measured over one year)... although you'd still have elevated cancer risks.

      And since your kidneys eliminate tritium quite effectively, it can't accumulate in your system.

    22. Re:They need to stop this fast... by Carnildo · · Score: 1

      Naturally, they're banned in the US, because they're atomic.

      The keyfobs are banned in the US because they're considered "novelties". Tritium-powered safety equipment (eg. exit signs) and tools (eg. gunsights) are legal.

      --
      "They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
    23. Re:They need to stop this fast... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why don't your turn on your lights to find your keys in the dark?

  30. What a bunch of numbskulls. by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 4, Informative

    We get far more exposure from radon outgassing from the granite countertops in our kitchens.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/24/garden/24granite.html

    Let's pay attention to something we can actually get exposed to.

    1. Re:What a bunch of numbskulls. by russotto · · Score: 1

      We get far more exposure from radon outgassing from the granite countertops in our kitchens.

      My countertops are totally non-toxic melamine, you ignorant clod.

    2. Re:What a bunch of numbskulls. by agnosticnixie · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well I guess we'll have to change our granite countertops to something more exotic, they were starting to look nouveau riche

      *sighs*

    3. Re:What a bunch of numbskulls. by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      Sure you don't mean melamine-formaldehyde?

    4. Re:What a bunch of numbskulls. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm assuming you're joking.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal

    5. Re:What a bunch of numbskulls. by QuoteMstr · · Score: 1

      Preach it brother.

      People are panicking over a trace amount of tritium that cannot possibly harm them, while on the other hand ignoring, say, leaking gas station storage tanks that can actually poison them.

    6. Re:What a bunch of numbskulls. by russotto · · Score: 1

      Sure you don't mean melamine-formaldehyde?

      Yep, that's the stuff.

  31. oh, Fanboy Fantasies commented on this story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    personally I'm sick of his anti-fun agenda. White Powder!

    -K. Richards

  32. Simple decision not weasel words by JustNiz · · Score: 1

    Its a hard job to set safety standards for radiation as there really is not any 100% safe level other than absolute 0.

    The standards are probably irrationally low for all practical purposes, but regardless of that, there is no dispute that the standards have already been significantly exceeded.

    If they were doing their job properly, they simply need to decide to either immediately fix the leak or shut the site down. They can review the safety standards later if they want. To do that properly would require a detailed study, in other words, more time than they have now. I don't even think the NRC has the legal authority to arbitrarily decide to ignore the current safety standards.

    The thing that is most scary is the NRC at the highest level apparently believes that weasel words presumably to cover political expediency and cost saving are more appropriate than peoples safety, and a commitment to quickly and properly fix the actual leak.

    1. Re:Simple decision not weasel words by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      Are you some kind of loon?

      So where in the universe are you going to find 0 radiation? On the surface of the Earth there is plenty from cosmic rays and solar radiation. Underground doesn't help because there are plenty of subterranean sources. Go up and it gets worse, especially outside the Earth's magnetic field.

      The correct answer is that your risk is not materially increased if your exposure to artificial sources is a small fraction of natural sources.

      Generally transcontinental plane flight will expose you to far more radiation than you will likely encounter from any artificial sources.

    2. Re:Simple decision not weasel words by HiddenCamper · · Score: 1

      The ocean is the lowest. In a submarine. The nuclear subs have the lowest exposure rates of any core in the industry because there's also virtually no background radiation.

    3. Re:Simple decision not weasel words by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      >> Are you some kind of loon? So where in the universe are you going to find 0 radiation?

      Uhh did I SAY they need to make it be 0? NO!!! You Dickwad. learn to read and check yourself before insulting others.

  33. totally safe by hamanu · · Score: 1, Insightful

    For the love of god, tritium decays by beta particle emission. Why the boy-who-cried-wolf nuclear panic over a beta emitter?

    --
    every _exit() is the same, but every clone() is different.
    1. Re:totally safe by s122604 · · Score: 1

      Not totally safe, IF YOU FUCKING DRINK IT.... Even Alpha emitters can kill you, if they get on the inside of you...

    2. Re:totally safe by hamanu · · Score: 1

      care to do a calculation of the LD50 of tritum in water?

      --
      every _exit() is the same, but every clone() is different.
    3. Re:totally safe by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Tritium releases a low energy beta particle, which is not particularly dangerous. Other beta emitters, such as [32]P emit high energy beta particles that can penetrate the skin, or even create Bremsstrahlung X-rays. Not all emissions of the same type are equally energetic (or equally dangerous). But you're basically correct, it is totally safe for the time being.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    4. Re:totally safe by jthill · · Score: 2, Informative

      "Even" alpha emitters?

      Alpha particles are over 7,000 times more massive. — they're .50cal bullets to the spitwad of a beta particle.

      Canada's limit is ten times the US limit and substantially less than the WHO's limit, and all are intended to prevent dangerous effects if stuff like this is ingested repeatedly and often for years.

      If you steadily drink tritiated water like this for years or decades, it'll probably eventually hurt you. So it's worth fixing, which they're doing.

      Meanwhile, if you want to do something approximately as dangerous, have a beer.

      --
      As always, all IMO. Insert "I think" everywhere grammatically possible.
    5. Re:totally safe by vtcat · · Score: 1

      Meanwhile, if you want to do something approximately as dangerous, have a beer.

      Great idea! You buying?

    6. Re:totally safe by oznog · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because once tritium ends up inside a cell, beta particles have all the subtleness of a bull in a china shop!

    7. Re:totally safe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I drink and ingest more radioactive compounds in a day than this. Hell, I BREATH more radioactive compounds in a day than this.

      I probably have about 30 or so distinct alpha emitters sat around me *right now*, and that's not counting Sol....

    8. Re:totally safe by arthurpaliden · · Score: 1

      The human body contains about 2 table spoons of heavy water.

  34. I'm not shocked they didn't know by plopez · · Score: 3, Interesting

    One of the 10000 or so jobs I have over the years was working in a refinery for a few months. During that time some of the workers tried to find some pipes for maintenance. No one knew where they were. There were the design diagrams, the "as-builts" and numerous additions and removals by contractors upgrading and doing maintenance. Some new ones were out in, some ripped out, and others abandoned in place.

    Metal detectors did not help, there was too much metal buried and scattered around.

    The situation was so bad they resorted to dowsing. I'm serious!

    Lately I've heard of small robots using GPS to travel a pipe and map it out. But with so many old plants and old pipes, it will be a long time before the situation is unsnarled.

    --
    putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
    1. Re:I'm not shocked they didn't know by Herve5 · · Score: 1

      GPS underground?
      I'd rather imagine robots equipped with accelerometers, ie a technique that'll start getting errors in the % range after just some m...

      --
      Herve S.
    2. Re:I'm not shocked they didn't know by dgatwood · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Accelerometers? Stepper motors and/or rotary encoders are your friend.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    3. Re:I'm not shocked they didn't know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No one knew where they were. There were the design diagrams, the "as-builts" and numerous additions and removals by contractors upgrading and doing maintenance.

      You're lucky you even had "as-builts". And you'd be even more lucky for them to actually be correct. In my experience, in the oil industry there is little or no relation between "as-sold" specs, design, what is built, and what is actually installed. I can only imagine what it ends up looking like after ten years of maintenance and modifications.

    4. Re:I'm not shocked they didn't know by plopez · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure of the details. I just had a quick conversation with a Civil Engineer.But I think a repeater base station could do it along with accelerometers. Or they taught the robots dowsing :)

      --
      putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
    5. Re:I'm not shocked they didn't know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sound a lot like software maintenance.. I'm currently in a role where part of my responsibility is to maintain a 12 year old smalltalk app. Very similar to your situation.

  35. Super Powers by phorm · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Maybe they're just waiting for the radioactivity to reach a high enough level that it will give them super-powers. Then they can deal with this and many other injustices in the world...

    1. Re:Super powers by geekprime · · Score: 2, Funny

      Super Cancer.

    2. Re:Super powers by HeadlessNotAHorseman · · Score: 2, Funny

      What kind of super powers do I get if I drink that water?

      The super power of slightly elevated cancer risk!

      --
      I like my coffee the way I like my women - roasted and ground up into little tiny pieces.
  36. Actually, not quite right. by gbutler69 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Grandparent though a Giga-Byte wa 1,024 Mega-Bytes. You said, that's a "gibibyte". Actually a "gibibyte" is 1,024 "mebibytes" which is 1,024 "kibibytes" which is 1,024 bytes. Mega-byte is 1,000 Giga-bytes which is 1,000 kilo-bytes, which is 1,000 bytes.

    --
    Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
    1. Re:Actually, not quite right. by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 2, Funny

      you are, of course, completely correct. I wrote too fast.

    2. Re:Actually, not quite right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck that shit. Fuck that "political correctness" bullshit. A kilobyte is still 1024 bytes, a megabyte is still 1048576 bytes, and a gigabyte is still 1073741824 bytes.

    3. Re:Actually, not quite right. by galanom · · Score: 0

      Readers of xkcd should just refer to 394 for further details

    4. Re:Actually, not quite right. by Your.Master · · Score: 1

      You do not understand what "political correctness" means.

    5. Re:Actually, not quite right. by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      You got that right except saying megabytes are 1000 gigabytes. Reversing those and you're doing well :)

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    6. Re:Actually, not quite right. by Fnkmaster · · Score: 1

      Language is descriptive, not proscriptive - the words mean what they mean, not what we try to define them forcefully to mean. Nobody is ever going to use the words kibibyte/mebibyte/gibibyte because they are the geekiest sounding things imaginable. They aren't usable English words. Until somebody comes up with a better system of nomenclature that is actually usable English that people are willing to adopt, we are going to just have to deal with the ambiguous meanings of kilobyte/megabyte/gigabyte (power-of-twos vs. power-of-tens values). The fact that nobody uses the "bibyte" versions of these words nor has adopted an alternative indicates that this ambiguity is less of a practical problem than the sticklers seem to think.

    7. Re:Actually, not quite right. by ozbird · · Score: 1

      Actually a "gibibyte" is 1,024 "mebibytes" which is 1,024 "kibibytes" which is 1,024 bytes.

      Mebi, mebi not.

  37. Hmmm...this has potential. by gbutler69 · · Score: 1

    Yeah Babe, my, errrm, "equipment" is 5/100,000ths of a Kilometer! America, Fuck Yeah!

    --
    Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
  38. Super powers by marciot · · Score: 1

    What kind of super powers do I get if I drink that water?

  39. That's 0.775 microcuries per liter by clyde_cadiddlehopper · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Sensational numbers! My heads almost didn't stay unexploded when I read 775,000 picocuries per liter. Somehow .775 microcuries per liter doesn't grab the nuke-fearing soul quite the same way.

    --
    Obi-Wan: "I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were sudden
  40. Hey, you! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Stop bringing facts into this!

  41. Confounding a critical point by anorlunda · · Score: 1

    The cited article said that the sample was taken "just to the east of the plant's condensate water storage tank" That's inside the plant. Then it cited the EPA standard for drinking water.

    Those two facts in close conjunction invite everyone to jump to the conclusion that the public gets its drinking water from next to the storage tank inside the plants grounds. In reality the nearest public or privately owned well is probably 5 to 10 miles away.

    I remember when I wanted to drill a new well in my yard. The local building code said that it had to be 100 feet from the septic tank drainage field. Wow, only 100 feet!!! Now consider how much five miles of intervening ground will filter.

    It is true that 775,000 picocuries per liter is 37 times higher than the limit. It is also true that there is no public health hazard. The devil is in the details, and the critical detail not emphasized in the Washpost article is the separation between the tank and the public.

    1. Re:Confounding a critical point by HiddenCamper · · Score: 1

      It's likely the leak is related to the CSTs. CSTs provide makeup water for potentially contaminated close cooling loops and a few other things that could be potentially contaminated.

  42. Wait, there's something wrong here... by geekprime · · Score: 1

    Isn't tritium ridiculously valuable?

    As in worth more per measure than gold or platinum?

    1. Re:Wait, there's something wrong here... by selven · · Score: 1

      It's at very low concentrations, in water, and filtering tritium out of water is hard (especially if it's ditritium oxide). So no, they're not going to try to recover any of it.

  43. EEEEK! GIANT ANTS! by Hasai · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Spend your time wading in 775,000 picocuries of tritium, or spend your time downwind of a coal-fired power plant.

    Betcha I know which one will kill you first....
    ];)

    --

    Regards;

    Hasai

    1. Re:EEEEK! GIANT ANTS! by pelrun · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah, bring that up next time someone cries about the amount of mercury in a CFL. Incandescents have no mercury, but all the energy they use actually disperses MORE mercury into the environment around the coal-fired power plant than is *contained* in the CFL. Oops.

  44. Water study warns of Utah uranium leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nuclear power is an idea that looks good on paper, but the nuke industry is controlled by big oil, subsidized by tax money, and overseen by bureaucrats. Don't expect much in the way of responsibility. Unless the problems are too big to conceal, they are ignored or covered up. BTW, "acceptable levels" of radiation really means that nobody important lives nearby.

    --------------------
    Las Vegas SUN: Water study warns of Utah uranium leak
    Today: March 23, 1999 at 11:06:00 PST
    By Mary Manning, LAS VEGAS SUN

    Uranium is leaking from a Utah site into the Colorado River at 530 times the federal radiation limit, threatening the drinking water of more than 25 million people, according to an independent study released today.

    The findings by the nonprofit watchdog group Project On Government Oversight have prompted Nevada and California representatives to call for the 10.5 million tons of radioactive material to be removed rather than covering it with a cap to protect it from rain and leaving it next to the Colorado River near Moab, Utah.

    The radiation and toxins are entering the river at 6.7 gallons per minute from an old mining site operated for the federal government. The radiation already exceeds Utah standards and the state has called for an extensive study of ground water.

    Based on research done by the Department of Energy's national laboratories, scientists estimate that the uranium perched on the edge of the Colorado River will continue leaking radiation into the river, serving people in Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Phoenix and Tucson for the next 270 years.

    Contamination from the Moab uranium would continue to increase in the river for the next nine years, DOE scientists at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory in Tennessee said. And if there is a flood, the radioactive pile could be washed into the water, significantly raising the level of contamination.

    "Polluter greed is prevailing over the health of millions of Americans exposed to radiation leeching from a toxic waste site into the Colorado River," the Project on Government Oversight, an independent government watchdog group, said in a news release.

    Researchers for the group discovered that the DOE has moved uranium and other toxic materials away from rivers and sources of ground water a dozen times in the West over the past 10 years in cases where the radioactive levels were 10 times smaller than that from the Moab pile.

    The Nuclear Regulatory Commission is considering a plan to allow Atlas Corp., a defunct milling operator, to cap the pile of uranium on site at a cost of $14 million. The DOE estimates it could cost $101 million to move the toxic pile.

    In addition, the Project on Government Oversight report said the uranium and toxic metals pose a threat to endangered fish including the razorback sucker, humpback chub, bonytail chub and Colorado squawfish.

    Besides the radioactivity, the mound contains ammonia, arsenic, lead, mercury and nickel. The toxic pile is stored less than 750 feet from the river and the ground is not lined to prevent leaks.

    The proposed legislation would shift the emphasis from keeping the uranium where it is to cleaning up the pile.

    Rep. Shelley Berkley, D-Nev., is cosponsoring HR 393, with Reps. George Miller and Bob Filner, both D-Calif., to shift agency responsibilities for removing the uranium to the DOE.

    "An ounce of contamination prevention is worth a pound of toxic waste in our water supply," Berkley said Monday. "Nevadans are tired of paying the price for America's nuclear legacy, and we're tired of waiting for a crisis before somebody does something."

    In addition to cleanup, the bill would require the U.S. attorney general to assess Atlas' liability and hold it financially responsible for the move. The company is threatening to declare bankruptcy.

    Although the polluted plume has been tracked less than 2 miles into the Colorado River, it could affect water quality downstream. Nevada and California water officials have detected a slight

  45. "At what level?!?" by Hasai · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Hey; I have an idea: Let's apply the nuke plant standard for isotope release to COAL plants!
    ];)

    --

    Regards;

    Hasai

  46. A blessing- a tritiated blessing from the Lord! by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 1

    Can someone find an Ebay link to an auction for an advanced combat optical gunsight with an inscripted reference to a Bible verse that appears lit for several decades when viewed through the scope?

    [JN 8:12] Then spake Jesus again unto them saying, "I am the light of the world: he who followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of five keV beta emission incident unto copper-activated zinc and burning sulfur emitting greenish secondary radiation having peak wavelength of one millionth of a cubit."

    Advance to 3:40 in this gunsight review to get the idea. For those of you who aren't Christians, well whatever, get over it.

  47. Re:totally safe (uh uh) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, beta particles are stopped by aluminum foil, skin, etc.
    But, not if the tritium replaces a H in water, forming tritiated water, which then, gosh darn it, winds up inside your body, yea, verily right next to your chromosomes, since water is water is water and it diffuses quite nicely. No aluminum foil shields now..

    Tritiated water is a big problem.

    Sort of like breathing in an alpha emitter (like radon or various other radium,uranium, thorium daughters) which is stopped by paper stuck to fine particles in cigarette smoke. Puts those alpha emitters right on the surface of those lung cells.

  48. Re:oh, mdsolar submitted this story by arthurpaliden · · Score: 1

    Then he would not approve of what this chap says he did. Do it yourself Heavy Water Reactor

  49. At what level should they shut it down? by mysidia · · Score: 1

    RIGHT NOW

    Some safety may be built into the standard, but it's done that way for a reason. They need to take action to fix this, and not ignore it on bogus reasoning like safety is built-in to the number.

    I would equate this to having a hard drive in your 30,000 transactions per second, multi-million dollar database system, and deciding not to do anything right now.

    Because your RAID10 array has ample safety built into it, and you don't have a catstrophe yet. *Yawn* we can just ignore the problem.

    1. Re:At what level should they shut it down? by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Err.. hard drive failure in your database system.

      For some reason Firefox randomly decides to not type one of the words I typed while the glowing annoying pin-wheel is displaying, and the cursor hasn't caught up yet

      Really annoying

  50. Re:Wait for the 3 eyed fish to show up before goin by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

    The cool thing is that you can catch the glowing ones at night without having to spotlight.

  51. Why this is important by lyonlebrun · · Score: 1

    As a resident of the state across the river (NH), I've been following this carefully. The context of this story is that Entergy (the company that's running Vermont Yankee) is asking a) to extend its current 30 year license (currently scheduled to expire in 2012) for another 20 years. In addition, they're asking to run the reactor at 120% of its rated power during that time This may be a great idea. Getting more years (and maybe even more power) from an existing fixed capital asset might continue to make (relatively inexpensive) power available at no carbon cost. As another poster said, a well-regulated, safe nuclear power plant should be just fine. But... 1) Entergy has been known to minimize the seriousness things in many of their statements. Most recently, they had told regulators several times that there were *no* underground pipes that could leak. Now... Oops. We didn't realize that those pipes existed... 2) They're trying to sell this plant to some other company. I don't understand the reason - it hasn't been stated clearly. 3) It's not at all clear where the money will come from to decommission the plant when it's closed. (Somewhere between $400-600Million...) Given that Entergy is trying to sell it, will they also pass off their decommissioning fund? (Or is there even one?) So I would be quite comfortable with extending the license for, say, 5 years at a time, with regular, rigorous inspections, as long as there is a bond or other reliable means of paying for the decommissioning. Otherwise, we have another example of privatizing the gain while socializing the expense... NH Resident

    1. Re:Why this is important by HiddenCamper · · Score: 1

      About the 120% power thing, they are a 600MWe reactor. The design margins on those things are so huge because of when they were designed that they could definitely uprate another 20%. Most plants in the industry have already uprated, but those 600 MWe cores cost a lot more to uprate that it doesnt surprise me they havent yet. The monticello nuclear plant did the 120% uprate (or is in the process of doing it now) and they've had no problems. They are just as old as VY if not older. I do agree that entergy needs to be scrutinized a little more.

  52. Worry about Radiation? by CXM2010 · · Score: 1

    Are you joking, that much radiation isn't anything to worry about compared to the fact that heavy water such as tritium or deuterium cant be expelled from the body because of the difference in binding energy in the hydrogen bonds the kidneys cant flush it from your body, it's cumulative,so the more it's consumed, more issues other than water retention develop; such as tissue degradation, affects certain cellular processes, notably mitosis, or cell division. It's effects when consumed are far worse than the level of radiation exposure from it.

  53. Tritium by MrKaos · · Score: 2, Informative

    A list of some scientific studies on the effects of tritium with references in case there is any doubt regarding Triated water's effect on living beings.

    Tritium is biologically mutagenic *because* it's a low energy emitter. This characteristic makes readily absorbed by surrounding cells. The available evidence from studies conducted journal a list of effects. From those works;

    Tritium can be inhaled, ingested, or absorbed through skin. Eating food containing 3H can be even more damaging than drinking 3H bound in water. Consequently, an estimated radiation dose based only on ingestion of tritiated water may underestimate the health effects if the person has also consumed food contaminated with tritium. (Komatsu)

    Studies indicate that lower doses of tritium can cause more cell death (Dobson, 1976), mutations (Ito) and chromosome damage (Hori) per dose than higher tritium doses. Tritium can impart damage which is two or more times greater per dose than either x-rays or gamma rays.

    (Straume) (Dobson, 1976) There is no evidence of a threshold for damage from 3H exposure; even the smallest amount of tritium can have negative health impacts. (Dobson, 1974) Organically bound tritium (tritium bound in animal or plant tissue) can stay in the body for 10 years or more.

    It's often said "of all the elements in nuclear waste tritium is one of the more harmless ones" and while it's more benign than most other radioactive effluents it's toxicity should not be under-estimated.

    Tritium can cause mutations, tumors and cell death. (Rytomaa) Tritiated water is associated with significantly decreased weight of brain and genital tract organs in mice (Torok) and can cause irreversible loss of female germ cells in both mice and monkeys even at low concentrations. (Dobson, 1979) (Laskey) Tritium from tritiated water can become incorporated into DNA, the molecular basis of heredity for living organisms. DNA is especially sensitive to radiation. (Hori) A cell's exposure to tritium bound in DNA can be even more toxic than its exposure to tritium in water. (Straume)(Carr)

    First, as an isotope of hydrogen (the cell's most ubiquitous element), tritium can be incorporated into essentially all portions of the living machinery; and it is not innocuous -- deaths have occurred in industry from occupational overexposure. R. Lowry Dobson, MD, PhD. (1979)

    References;

    Komatsu, K and Okumura, Y. Radiation Dose to Mouse Liver Cells from Ingestion of Tritiated Food or Water. Health Physics. 58. 5:625-629. 1990.

    Dobson, RL. The Toxicity of Tritium. International Atomic Energy Agency symposium, Vienna: Biological Implications of Radionuclides Released from Nuclear Industries v. 1: 203. 1979.

    Hori, TA and Nakai, S. Unusual Dose-Response of Chromosome Aberrations Induced in Human Lymphocytes by Very Low Dose Exposures to Tritium. Mutation Research. 50: 101-110. 1978.

    Straume, T and Carsten, AL.Tritium Radiobiology and Relative Biological Effectiveness. Health Physics. 65 (6) :657-672; 1993. [This special issue of Health Physics is entirely devoted to Tritium]

    Laskey, JW, et al. Some Effects of Lifetime Parental Exposure to Low Levels of Tritium on the F2 Generation. Radiation Research.56:171-179. 1973.

    Rytomaa, T, et al. Radiotoxicity of Tritium-Labelled Molecules. International Atomic Energy Agency symposium,Vienna: Biological Implications of Radionuclides Released from Nuclear Industries v. 1: 339. 1979.

    --
    My ism, it's full of beliefs.
  54. tl;dr. Here's my response by imhennessy · · Score: 1
    I don't care, for the moment, how this happened. I'd be quite happy to learn how this happened in fifty years, when some dying old man makes the confession that he accidentally shredded the last four pages of a six hundred page schematic. What ever.

    I care that a nuclear reactor just a few miles from my home can't go two weeks without ending up in the news over some screwup. They don't know where the pipes are, or what they do; they don't keep up on maintenence, they choose not to fund their decomissioning fund; they can't cool the water they dump in the Connecticut River; they can't always remember where they put spent fuel rods ...

    And they want to up the rates.

    --
    Like to brew? Want to talk about it? Brattlebrew: groups.yahoo.com/group/brattlebrew
    1. Re:tl;dr. Here's my response by Rei · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's the problem with nuclear. It's great on paper. Heck, on paper, it's way overbuilt and will undercut every fuel source on price. But it's been a magnet for "unforeseen complications". You've got a core being bombarded with a high neutron flux that weakens its structure, you have daughter products leeching out, you have products being bred from the neutron flux, etc. So your core and primary coolant loop is basically doing its best to damage itself. This then combines with the fact that a leak in the core or primary coolant loop is a Bad Thing(TM). Then you have the fact that you need (in order to be economical) to maintain a very high capacity factor (unlike, say, NG). This means you need to rush maintenance through. Then you have the fact that decommissioning cost estimates keep rising as we keep finding new expenses. The same thing happens with spent fuel. And bugs... in a conventional power plant, if something significant goes wrong, your plant shuts down and you have to fix it. The public never even hears about it In a nuclear power plant, if something significant goes wrong, your plant shuts down, you have to do a much bigger fix, you get a ton of bad press, you have to do an expensive cleanup operation, and if it's really bad, people get sick and/or die.

      It's just a really tough situation to deal with. And even the most modern designs, like the CANDUs, keep having their own share of problems. It's the risk that's driving investment away, that's causing Moody's to downgrade nuclear power investments. Not so much direct, immediate health risks -- economic risk and liability risks. And don't underestimate the economic risks; even in the construction phase, nuclear power plant cost overruns have proven to be far too common.

      --
      I'll BUILD someone to replace you. Some kind of gamma-powered monster, with a heart as black as coal!
    2. Re:tl;dr. Here's my response by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let me guess - you're a fat, Jewish chick, right?

    3. Re:tl;dr. Here's my response by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 1

      And they want to up the rates.

      It sounds like they'll need to.

      Regions with a high percentage of their power coming from Nuclear have historically had some of the lowest rates. Perhaps these same regions should have their rates adjusted to reflect decommissioning and long term maintenance costs. Maybe even retroactively, and in a way that follows the consumers who lived in the area during the 'low rate' period and have moved away.

  55. At what level should the NRC shut down the plant? by MrKaos · · Score: 1

    From my understanding the criteria for shutting down a Nuclear Power plant is assessed on mainly two parameters.

    A "Licencee Event Report" (LER) is submitted for issues above a safety significance threshold. For example at Davis-Besse, the frequency of the replacement water filters was out of spec. It should have signaled that something is going wrong in the reactor. This is the type of event that should be signaled as a LER even if it seems insignificant.

    The second stage is an "Accident Sequence Precursor" (ASP) which defines events that characterise the lead up to an accident at a Nuclear Plant. Sticking with the Davis Besse example which (from memory) was caused by a fine jet of borated water spraying onto the the *inside* of the reactor head. Water rusts steel, reactor head is steel, rust goes in water, water goes through filter, filter catches rust, management says it's ok, reactor head gets hole [if allowed to continue - reactor core breach and potential for explosion] - 'Accident Sequence Precursor'.

    By examining the trends for LER's and ASP statistically for all nuclear plants the NRC can get an overview of the operational state of all the plants *if* the operators of the plant co-operate and share their operational data (which I also believe to be a legal obligation of the Licensee) with the NRC. At issue is the characterisation of what sort of events should lead to a LER.

    At the Davis Besse plant I believe that it led to criminal charges as management allowed the plant to operate outside of it's "Basis Design" which is a known operational characteristic of the plant. Filter replacement intervals had been defined and were known about and thus should have characterised the plant as "not operating safely". I'm not sure if the criminal charges were placed because management should have reported several LERs instead of inspectors finding a hole in the reactor head when it was shutdown.

    "Basis Design Issues" (BDI) are also revealed whilst the reactors are operating - they are not all known when the reactor becomes operational due to the complexity of the machine. Industry wide knowledge of LERs contribute to knowing what BDIs lead to ASPs (and a sentence full of acronyms). Further information can be found in the NRC document NUREG 1275 - Volume 14 "Causes and Significance of Design Basis Issues at U.S Nuclear Power Plants"

    As often observed in plane crashes it's a combination of insignificant issues that lead to a problem. The question at hand is whether the leak is indicative of a larger problem for example; lets say our leak has led to filling a concrete void under the reactor core with water. Together the two events are insignificant, however when combined with a third event like a SCRAM of the reactor that suddenly heats that water in the concrete void you have the potential for a serious explosion.

    I'm not saying thats whats happening, just that the water leak my be an indicator (a LER) of a larger issue which is used as part of the determination if the plant should be shut down. A leak of triated water into the environment is a serious concern. What is yet to be revealed is if the leak reveals a Basis Design Issue that is serious enough to be a part of an Accident Sequence Precursor.

    No matter what the outcome the continued operation of the reactor will probably be determined on *if* they can find the leak. Anything that affects the cooling capacity of a Nuclear Reactor is not a situation that can be allowed to persist.

    --
    My ism, it's full of beliefs.
  56. If you wanted to connect some dots . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A December 31st 2009 Time Magazine article, chronicled the movement in Vermont to seceed from the United States because of the endless wars, invasions of liberty, war crimes around the world, and fiscal irresponsiblity.

    A couple of months later: Vermont has deadly levels of radioactive waste in it's water.

    Hmmmmm.

  57. Tritium Safer Than Tobacco Smoke by sudon't · · Score: 1

    We know this because the EPA has told us that, while there is no safe level of environmental tobacco smoke, safe levels have been established for radiation exposure. Since I'm not dead, I'd say there's nothing to worry about.

    --
    -- sudon't

    Air-ride Equipped

  58. Correct... by Zemran · · Score: 1

    ... I do not have a car!

    Most people do not think they are going to kill anyone when they do drive a car but these people accept that they will kill people and work out what is acceptable risk.

    --
    I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
  59. This... by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    is not the tritium leak you are looking for. Move along... [jedi wave]