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The Role of Human Culture In Natural Selection

gollum123 writes with this excerpt from the NY Times: "... for the last 20,000 years or so, people have inadvertently been shaping their own evolution. The force is human culture, broadly defined as any learned behavior, including technology. The evidence of its activity is the more surprising because culture has long seemed to play just the opposite role. Biologists have seen it as a shield that protects people from the full force of other selective pressures, since clothes and shelter dull the bite of cold and farming helps build surpluses to ride out famine. Because of this buffering action, culture was thought to have blunted the rate of human evolution, or even brought it to a halt, in the distant past. Many biologists are now seeing the role of culture in a quite different light. Although it does shield people from other forces, culture itself seems to be a powerful force of natural selection. People adapt genetically to sustained cultural changes, like new diets. And this interaction works more quickly than other selective forces, 'leading some practitioners to argue that gene-culture co-evolution could be the dominant mode of human evolution.'"

337 comments

  1. Religious Neanderthals by grub · · Score: 1, Interesting


    Too bad smarter people tend to breed less. "Liberalism, atheism, male sexual exclusivity linked to IQ"

    You can always hope the current crop of Religious Neanderthals will be bred out as their namegivers had.

    .

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    1. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Too bad more educated people tend to breed less.

      Fixed that for you.

    2. Re:Religious Neanderthals by ArhcAngel · · Score: 1

      You can always hope the current crop of Neanderthals will be bred out as their namegivers had.

      I wouldn't bet on that.

      --
      "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
    3. Re:Religious Neanderthals by magarity · · Score: 5, Informative

      The people conducting that study were completely confused:
       
        The study takes the American view of liberal vs. conservative. It defines "liberal" in terms of concern for genetically nonrelated people and support for private resources that help those people
       
      Liberals in America think *public* resources should be used to help others. Conservatives think that private resources should be used.

    4. Re:Religious Neanderthals by MyLongNickName · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ah, yes. Slashdot... where correlation does not mean causation unless the study supports your prejudices.

      Does high IQ produce the bent away from conservative values and religion? Or does high IQ cause one to feel "superior to the masses", arrogance and then a rejection of these values? The study is not able to go into this.

      And assuming this is the same study as the one I read... was done on a college population (brilliant sampling technique, I must admit). It also found that the "ubermensch" has an average IQ of 103. Clearly our atheist, liberal overlords are far beyond what I can even imagine intellect wse.

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    5. Re:Religious Neanderthals by interkin3tic · · Score: 2, Funny

      You can always hope the current crop of Neanderthals will be bred out as their namegivers had.

      I wouldn't bet [imdb.com] on that.

      You do know that movie was fiction, right? Hmm... maybe the current crop of religious neanderthals will just be replaced by a moviegoing crop of neanderthals.

    6. Re:Religious Neanderthals by sageres · · Score: 1

      I would probably argue that religion and belief in metaphysical entities is a cornerstone of human evolution since our collective psyche is unable to deal, explain and understand death and the subsequent loss of ego and self-awareness, understanding harmonious and disharmonious interaction among human beings and many other things. Yes, we can always say, "I am atheist!", however I am not talking on individual level, but more on a collective level of society.

    7. Re:Religious Neanderthals by CannonballHead · · Score: 0, Troll

      So I guess natural selection is failing in your eyes, since we still have "Religious Neanderthals." And you seem to put atheism as a tenant and pillar of intelligence.

      Pretty interesting. Some of the darkest moments in history, it seems, were when a culture or country put emphasis on single belief systems as determining whether someone was "good enough" to live... or at least, live at the same standard as those "privileged" people. Atheism is a belief, since God has not been disproven. Sure, you can argue it's more or less logically sound, makes more or less sense, but when it come down to it - since God is not something you can taste, see, feel, touch, etc., it's hard to be proven or disproven by science.

      And yet it seems you would consider atheism to be a mark of intelligence and higher thinking/learning... hum.

    8. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Sique · · Score: 1

      It also found that the "ubermensch" has an average IQ of 103.

      Which is per definitionem above average for all, because the average IQ is defined to be 100.

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      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    9. Re:Religious Neanderthals by spun · · Score: 1

      Isn't it awesome when reality does the trolling for you?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    10. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the people claiming to be religious averaged 6-8 points lower, putting them below average.

    11. Re:Religious Neanderthals by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 1, Insightful

      IQ is not education (and I suspect you rate highly in neither). Read links before you start 'correcting' people.

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    12. Re:Religious Neanderthals by grub · · Score: 1

      heheheh yep.

      Of course the RNs (see GP) will gather en masse with their clubs, stone knives and mod points anytime...

      :)

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    13. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      Fiction? Yes. A gross exaggeration? yes. Insightful? Hell, yes.

    14. Re:Religious Neanderthals by MyLongNickName · · Score: 1

      Yes, I am quite aware of this. The OP makes it sound like there is a titantic difference. Again, if this is the same study I read, it focused on college students.... which makes me wonder if 103 is really above average given the demographic.

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    15. Re:Religious Neanderthals by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 1

      Ugh, yeah. I get so tired of people treating Idiocracy like some kind of brilliant insight. Real history demonstrates that knowledge and intellect have both increased over the thousands of years of human development, regardless of the fact that average + below average is always > above average. That's the way a curve works.

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    16. Re:Religious Neanderthals by hondo77 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Liberals in America think *public* resources should be used to help others. Conservatives think that private resources should be used.

      Did I wake up in a parallel universe where Ike is still President?

      --
      I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
    17. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      In practice, conservatives think that no resources should be used to help others.

    18. Re:Religious Neanderthals by joeyblades · · Score: 1

      > Too bad smarter people tend to breed less.

      That is just natural selection doing it's job...

    19. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Raffaello · · Score: 1

      And you seem to put atheism as a tenant and pillar of intelligence.

      So atheism pays rent to intelligence? The word you're looking for is "tenet" not "tenant."

    20. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Bemopolis · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In practice, conservatives think that no resources should be used to help others.*

      *Except banks and investment firms. Oh, and Halliburton and Blackwater.

      --
      "I guess the moral of the story is, don't paint your airship with rocket fuel." -- Addison Bain
    21. Re:Religious Neanderthals by jellomizer · · Score: 0, Troll

      (With tongue in cheek) Well that is what you get when your group kills off its own young.

      But honestly you could see this in some other ways...

      The people that you mention tend to be real jerks and very unlikable.

      Extreme Liberals, everything you do is bad, It will hurt the environment, or is the cause for all the problems in the world. In general a real downer after a while. Besides if you are that politically motivated it is hard for you to shut up and except the general culture, when you are part of the general culture you tend to reap its benefits. "The Man" isn't trying to hold you back, however if you fight with him he will not help you out much.

      Atheist, A lot of them don't seem to respect other peoples beliefs, you meat a nice girl and tell her she is a fool that she believes in a god that will be a big turn off. Simple fact There is no solid proof for or against God... So arguing with someone who does believe in God will just create more conflict. Besides Religions are a group where people can join as a sub-comunity and gain benefits from it

      Male Sexual Exclusivity lined to IQ... You mean being an Elitist bastard... For one IQ isn't the only way to measure smarts and two it in itself is a measurement of potential but not of actual use. I have seen a lot of really stupid people with High IQs. Espectily after they learn they have a High IQ because they think if they have a High IQ they know more then everyone else and is superior. So they end up being a jerk. Leaving the people with lower IQs who are nicer and are willing to listen to people who know more about stuff then them on different topics makes them far more approachable.

      It isn't the fact that they belong to these groups but the fact that they are unable to adapt to cultural norms, thus not reproducing.

      --
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    22. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And I presume you have another way of measuring it besides tests that an educated lifestyle conditions one for? And you can define, in precise, empirical language, just what IQ quantifies? And I'm sure the Flynn effect has nothing top do with widespread advances in socioeconomic conditions and education, right? Understand what you're talking about before correcting others.

    23. Re:Religious Neanderthals by m.shenhav · · Score: 1

      Indeed! While im an Atheist and used to have an aggressive stance against religion, of late I have realised that the value of an idea is not so much whether its right or wrong... ...but whether its Fit or Unfit! Everybody has morality of some sort- and thats no science. Religion must have evolved for a reason... just like all the other adaptations. Religious people will easily list the benefits it gives them. Maybe science has better answers, but we certainly have a lot to learn in communicating them.

    24. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "smart people"? Scoring high on an IQ test does not make you smart. The idea that intelligence or wisdom can be effectively measured by a standardized test is an insult to both.

      Your post might was well have said "People who think similarly have similar ideas! More at eleven!"

      IQ tests challenge a certain type of thinking. Score well and you prove only that your thought process is similar to test creators vision of "intelligent thinking". It does not, in any way, measure objective intelligence. It does not even touch upon wisdom, which in my opinion may be much more valuable than any definition of intelligence.

    25. Re:Religious Neanderthals by number6x · · Score: 1

      Liberals in America think *public* resources should be used to help others. Conservatives think that private resources should be used.

      Liberals in America think *public* resources should be used to help others. Conservatives think that *public* resources should be used to help corporations.

      There, fixed that for you.

    26. Re:Religious Neanderthals by mhelander · · Score: 1

      "regardless of the fact that average + below average is always > above average. That's the way a curve works."

      Say what?

    27. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Spy+Handler · · Score: 1

      Too bad smarter people tend to breed less

      That's true, but it's a very recent phenomenon, and it only applies to developed/rich countries. Historically, in some cultures (notably Far East and city-dwelling Jews of Medieval Europe) the higher your IQ, more children you had in general. Just from my own personal knowledge... my maternal grandmother's dad was a rich self-made guy around the turn of century in Korea. Again, generally speaking, higher IQ people usually make more money than lower IQ people. Now the culture in the Far East at the time was such that rich, successful men were able to not only pay for the upbringing of children better, it was completely normal and culturally acceptable for such "outstanding citizens" (rich guys) to have 2 or 3 concubines. Actually for all intents and purposes these were 2nd and 3rd families with different women.

      My grandma has 3 sisters, and something like 12 half-siblings. Her dad had a wife (my grandma's mom) and 3 concubines.

      And according to most studies, East Asians have a mean IQ somewhat higher than whites. Akashic Jews have the highest IQ of all.

      Some other racial groups (you can guess which ones) generally excel at athleticism and generally do worse on IQ tests. From this (and from direct observation also) we can infer that historically, their culture favored the strong/athletic/warrior types and those were the men who were able to breed the most, not the brainy types.

    28. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Foobar+of+Borg · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well, if by "help" you mean oppress financially or shoot you down in cold blood.

    29. Re:Religious Neanderthals by CannonballHead · · Score: 1

      Hehe... so I did.

      Atheism paying rent to intelligence is an awfully funny philosophical picture though...

    30. Re:Religious Neanderthals by cusco · · Score: 1

      Religion must have evolved for a reason

      Suppression of the majority by the minority, I suspect.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    31. Re:Religious Neanderthals by spun · · Score: 1

      Oh my goodness, someone doesn't understand how the IQ scale works. It is the percentage of intellectual age to actual age, and 100 is, by definition, average for any given age group.

      You must be a conservative, right? It shows.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    32. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have an invisible bottle. I can't interact with the bottle, but I can see how much water is in it. I conclude that the volume of the water is equal the volume of the bottle. That is IQ.

    33. Re:Religious Neanderthals by jimbolauski · · Score: 1

      Let me get this straight with 92% of the population believing in God and 8% atheist. If the 8% of Athiest had a IQ of 103 then the other 92% would have a score of 99.7, you are not doing much for your statement that athesist are smarter.

      --
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      P= W/t
      t=Money
      Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
    34. Re:Religious Neanderthals by MyLongNickName · · Score: 1

      Actually, I tend to be more liberal than conservative.

      And if you are looking at college students, the average should be above 100 because of selection bias. So, I would think it is YOU who does not understand the bell curve.

      Now, having said that, this study is not the one I was thinking of. This one trackedkids from a younger age through young adulthood.

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    35. Re:Religious Neanderthals by trurl7 · · Score: 1

      Dystopias are not typically aimed as "brilliant insights": they are a cautionary exploration of what certain uncorrected trends may yield. A speculative reductio ad absurdum.

      Also, "real history" demonstrates that while humans, on average, get smarter, the witch-hunting/burning traditions of our ancestors are alive and well today. Perhaps less with the bone-breaking and the other refinements, but certainly the mental delusions are still there.

      The advance of skeptical, critical thinking is very slow, is almost everywhere opposed by well-intentioned moralists harking for a never-extant halcyon age. So no, I don't believe cautionary dystopias are excessive or unnecessary. Some may even be brilliant. No one's running around screaming "the sky is falling". Just that you consider the tale and its implications.

    36. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      It's within the margin of error.

    37. Re:Religious Neanderthals by c6gunner · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Education can contribute to IQ, though. We've been seeing a steady rise in IQ points for quite a while now, and the best theories I've seen suggest that it's directly caused by the rise in abstract-thinking skills amongst the general populace. Since abstract thinking is a learned behavior, this certainly suggests that IQ measurements - no matter how well designed - will be influenced by the level of education of the person being tested.

    38. Re:Religious Neanderthals by c6gunner · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Insightful my ass. It was fun to watch, but that's it. The trend of the poor and uneducated breeding more than the well-educated upper classes has been with us for a long time now, yet our species has continued to improve technologically and the average IQ has continued to rise. You can poke fun at American popular-culture, if that's what makes you happy, but if you're going to suggest that the human race is about to start getting stupider then you'd better have some damn good evidence to support that.

    39. Re:Religious Neanderthals by spun · · Score: 1

      Oh, duh, right. Selection bias for college students, I thought you were talking about age because that is all the article mentions:

      The study looked at a large sample from the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health (Add Health), which began with adolescents in grades 7-12 in the United States during the 1994-95 school year. The participants were interviewed as 18- to 28-year-olds from 2001 to 2002. The study also looked at the General Social Survey, another cross-national data collection source.

      But you were talking about a different article that you had read, which DID focus on college students. I thought we were still referring to the article grub had mentioned.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    40. Re:Religious Neanderthals by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      No one's running around screaming "the sky is falling". Just that you consider the tale and its implications.

      Except there are indeed people on slashdot who are running around screaming that idiocracy is coming true anytime anyone does anything stupid.

    41. Re:Religious Neanderthals by ph0rk · · Score: 1

      6-11 points, depending on the iq scale is more than a standard deviation. The fact the author of the article isn't aware of how large that potentially is is irrelevant. There are lots of problems with iq tests, but an 11 point spread is significant.

      --
      semantics are everything!
    42. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      Real history demonstrates that the smarter (and therefore richer) members of society have had fewer children, but more that reach a reproductive age. This has been an environmental selection.

      Idiocracy explores what happens when cultural selection overwhelms environmental selection. No, it is not a documentary. It is a thought study cast as humor.

      Now, since you have such a disregard for this fictional thought study, please explain to the group what happens when the smartest people in mass decide not to reproduce, to the point that culture is selecting for traits that make one a dumbass?
       

      --
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      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    43. Re:Religious Neanderthals by trurl7 · · Score: 1

      While there are indeed some who do, I earnestly hope that in the preponderance of such cases, there are misplaced <irony> or <sarcasm> tags missing :)

    44. Re:Religious Neanderthals by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 1

      If you can demonstrate how what I said was incorrect, please do, otherwise do not insult my understanding. I am not here to defend IQ measurement, nor was anything I said even useful as a defense of IQ measurement if you were to think about it longer than two seconds. I myself believe the system to be deficient, and it is the primary reason I have abstained from joining MENSA. It remains, however, a fact that one can have a high IQ without education, and that one can be educated without having a high IQ. They are not the same thing. That is all I said, it is correct, and that is all I have to say.

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    45. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Prien715 · · Score: 1

      Ebeneezer Scrooge, when asked about the poor said "Are there no workhouses?" Which were public institutions. I'd hardly classify him as liberal (as per your logic).

      And, the vast majority of non-profits, are run by liberals. Or maybe libertarians. Find me one donation funded radio station otherwise in the US run by a conservative.

      Liberals fundamentally believe in charity, sometimes at the expense of bankrupting society. Conservatives simply don't believe in charity; they believe in mutually beneficial exchanges at best -- no handouts. There's a balance to be had surely, but I can't think of a single non-political charity dominated by conservatives (aside from churches).

      --
      -- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
    46. Re:Religious Neanderthals by ppanon · · Score: 1

      Religion must have evolved for a reason

      Suppression of the majority by the minority, I suspect.

      That's almost certainly the case with most religions at some point in their lifecycle, because most religions involve static undemocratic hierarchies which, if they wield any power, will attract and be exploited by the unscrupulous. That doesn't mean they are inherently about the control of the majority by a majority. On the other hand, certain religions do seem to have certain concepts structured to reinforce the control of the majority by the minority. For example,. karma as it pertains to reincarnation, where your current station is life is preordained by behaviour in a past life and must be borne with stoicism. It's good for social stability, but doesn't allow much progress and can result in substantial waste of human potential.

      However back to the original poster's point, I suspect that religion provided an organizational foundation or focus that allowed social groups to grow beyond the natural size of primate tribal groups. That allowed those cultural groups to tackle bigger problems than those accessible to pure tribal groups and gave them a competitive advantage. The altruistic components of many religions also probably make those groups more resistant to natural disasters since they can draw upon a greater geographical base which is more likely to have some part that escaped the disaster. Whether those advantages are still necessary in an era with nationalism and democratic institutions is an open question. However it would appears that the significant decline of religious adherence in many Westernized countries is an answer to that question.

      However the above lessons that we can garner from the history of religions is why I'm rather sanguine about the claims of proponents of libertarianism and small government.

      --
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    47. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      Well sure, but the problem is that the standard deviation in the IQ bell curve is defined to be about 15. Being 3 IQ points smarter than average means almost nothing.

    48. Re:Religious Neanderthals by wgaryhas · · Score: 1

      Why do you assume that the invisible bottle is full?

      --
      "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - H.L. Mencken
    49. Re:Religious Neanderthals by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 1

      The reasoning in his analogy is deliberately deficient to convey the deficiency of the system of IQ measurement. That's the point. If it were not deficient, it would be a defense of the aforesaid measurement.

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    50. Re:Religious Neanderthals by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 1

      Your optimism is far greater than mine.

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    51. Re:Religious Neanderthals by c6gunner · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Liberals in America think *public* resources should be used to help others. Conservatives think that *public* resources should be used to help corporations.

      Funny, I didn't realize Obama was a conservative. You learn something new every day.

    52. Re:Religious Neanderthals by osgeek · · Score: 1

      Knowledge has certainly increased, but how can we tell if intellect has on average? Maybe we have more intelligent people than we had a thousand years ago, but we've got more people period.

      My hope is that even if we are coasting downward on some earlier leaps in average intelligence; that we'll get to the stage where we can write our own genetic future.

    53. Re:Religious Neanderthals by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually, everybody is deciding to reproduce less, does this mean they are getting smarter?

      (It probably does.)

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    54. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      Slight corrections for you...

      There is no such thing as an Akashic Jew, the term is nonsense. I think you meant "Ashkenazi", and the rest of world Jewry doesn't trail too far behind us in IQ terms (the interbreeding between different kinds of Jews taking place in modern times helps).

      Also, the phenomenon of smarter people making a better living and therefore having more children has occurred quite widely throughout human history; it's the reason for the evolution of intelligence. The so-called "idiocracy" is a function of economics and ideological education in modern Western countries. On the one hand, deregulated capitalist economies take parents away from the home and make having children expensive to the middle-class and the rich (while the poor receive social-welfare payments for their kids) who tend to be more educated (and often smarter due to better nutrition). On the other hand, the green ideology that has become the religion of the atheistic and the educated classes looks at children as Earth-damaging CO2 fountains.

      Meanwhile, the poor breed more because society supports their doing so with welfare benefits while they don't even feel obligated to spend as much on their kids as richer parents. The stupid breed more because they simply don't know how to have sex without impregnating the woman. The ignorant breed more because they never received indoctrination into Church-of-Euthanasia environmentalism. The religious breed more because we believe children are a gift from God.

      So really it's not so much that intelligence will be bred out of the gene pool as workaholism, gullibility to indoctrination, and misanthropic views of human existence. These things just happen to be currently correlated with intelligence, education and wealth at the moment despite not causing them.

      The vast majority of so-called "idiocracy" could be eliminated in a day if Western society decided to emphasize family life and parenthood more than career achievements and living out fad beliefs as lifestyle.

    55. Re:Religious Neanderthals by c6gunner · · Score: 1, Insightful

      So I guess natural selection is failing in your eyes, since we still have "Religious Neanderthals."

      In the same sense that natural selection is failing because we still have wisdom teeth. Which is to say, not at all.

      Atheism is a belief, since God has not been disproven.

      No, atheism is not a belief - atheism is the rejection of a belief.

      Sure, you can argue it's more or less logically sound, makes more or less sense, but when it come down to it - since God is not something you can taste, see, feel, touch, etc.,

      Exactly - which is why anyone with a smidgen of intelligence should reject the idea right off the bat. Believing in things which do not manifest in the real world is not only silly and unreasonable, but completely pointless.

      it's hard to be proven or disproven by science.

      Science also has a hard time proving that Xenu isn't waiting at the edge of the solar system. Scientology is every bit as valid as any other religion - which is to say, not at all.

    56. Re:Religious Neanderthals by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 1, Interesting

      It all depends on to what cause you attribute the observable nature of the Flynn Effect. As an avid synthesizer of history, I think that the average guy today is more intelligent than the average guy of the ancient or medieval periods. I think the primary reason is the cultural reduction (not elimination) of superstition and more practical cause/effect views of the observable world.

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    57. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Golddess · · Score: 1

      Real history demonstrates that knowledge and intellect have both increased over the thousands of years of human development

      Except for that part during the dark/middle ages and perhaps even early renaissance where it instead decreased thanks in no small part to the church.

      --
      "I'm not sure I like the fugnutish tone you used in your post!" -RogL (608926)-
    58. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That was epic. Congratulations, good sir. *long, sustained golf clap*

    59. Re:Religious Neanderthals by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Suppression of the majority by the minority, I suspect.

      That doesn't explain why it would have evolved in the first place, unless you're suggesting that having large segments of the population controlled by a few individuals is beneficial for the survival of a group. Even if we accept that premise, it doesn't explain why religion needed to fill that role.

      The best evolution-based argument that I've seen for the emergence of religion is that, in most cases in the natural world, it's better to be sure about something and be wrong than to be unsure and unable to act. If you hear rustling in the bushes and believe it's a predatory animal, being wrong doesn't harm you, but if you're unsure about what it is and decide to investigate ... well, things could end very badly for you. So we have a tendency to make assumptions and act on them before having all the data, and that tendency translated into all sorts of beliefs once we became capable of asking more abstract questions.

      There are some other factors, too, such as our inherent tendency to anthropomorphize. We tend to assign living qualities to non-living objects, probably as a side-effect of our ability to judge the motives and intentions of other people/animals. This tendency also extends to the dead, and it's even easier to see how that might be a side-effect of empathy, so a belief in souls and an afterlife seems like a natural consequence. It's a fascinating topic.

    60. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Eternauta3k · · Score: 1

      the average IQ has continued to rise

      Huh? The number 100 has continued to rise? :P

      --
      Yeah. Would you choose a neurosurgeon who pokes around people's brains in his spare time? I wouldn't.
    61. Re:Religious Neanderthals by AdamThor · · Score: 1

      Maybe it just shows that the availability of birth control is increasing? Perhaps smart people have had greater access to birth control in the past?

      Given the following from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_control:
      When it came to birth control in France, women were working for reproductive rights and they helped end the nation's ban on birth control in 1965. Finally in 1970, in Catholic Italy, feminists won the right to gain access to birth control information.[2]

      It isn't too hard to imagine that use of birth control has not yet settled into a steady state. Couple that with the greater means of the upper class. It isn't far fetched to believe that trend to fewer children in the upper class ("smart") are perhaps not a permanent development.

      --
      -- "Oh. This guy again."
    62. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Nutria · · Score: 1

      That's the way a curve works.

      IQ is relative, with 100 the normalized value of "average" intelligence. So, though the populace might be getting stupider (/The Bachelor/ has, for example, been on for 8 years!!), the average IQ will still be 100, and the denormalized intelligence curves would show a shift to the left.

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    63. Re:Religious Neanderthals by mosb1000 · · Score: 1

      You can always hope the current crop of Religious Neanderthals will be bred out as their namegivers had.

      The true sign of intelligence is humility, being willing to accept that you may not be right, accepting new facts and new wisdom. This us versus them mentality you are perpetuating by calling "Religious Neanderthals" anyone who is not "Liberal, Atheist, and Sexually Exclusive" does not promote learning, reconciliation or understanding.

      I've learned that most of the things people say are true. That means that when you immediately reject an opinion that comes from the other side of the fence, you are arbitrarily excluding a lot of truth from your world view.

      Something to think about.

    64. Re:Religious Neanderthals by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      Keeps us at optimal intelligence. People who are too smart are just as defective as people who are too dumb.

    65. Re:Religious Neanderthals by c6gunner · · Score: 3, Informative

      Huh? The number 100 has continued to rise? :P

      Smartass :)

      On the off chance that you're serious - and for those who aren't aware - IQ tests are re-normalized periodically in order to keep 100 as the average. In other words, if a person today and a person 30 years ago took the exact same IQ test and got the exact same answers, the person writing it today would receive a lower score. So yes, the average IQ does keep getting higher, even though it stays at 100 :)

      Check here for more info:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect

    66. Re:Religious Neanderthals by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Huh? The number 100 has continued to rise? :P

      Of course. As of now, it has reached the value of one hundred.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    67. Re:Religious Neanderthals by ArhcAngel · · Score: 2, Funny

      You do know that movie was fiction, right?

      I never thought of it as fiction so much as

      A FRIKKEN HILARIOUS COMEDY

      *sheesh*

      --
      "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
    68. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Chees0rz · · Score: 1

      I myself believe the system to be deficient, and it is the primary reason I have abstained from joining MENSA.

      I, myself, believe the Imperial System to be deficient, and it is the primary reason I have abstained from joining TIC (12 inch club).

      btw. last I checked mensa is a word, not an acronym.

    69. Re:Religious Neanderthals by rs79 · · Score: 2, Funny

      but if you're going to suggest that the human race is about to start getting stupider then you'd better have some damn good evidence to support that."

      Texas. Australian Internet regulators. ICANN.

      --
      Need Mercedes parts ?
    70. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      No. No it isn't. Standard deviation is around 15.

    71. Re:Religious Neanderthals by I(rispee_I(reme · · Score: 2, Insightful

      or, "Liberals want a welfare state. Conservatives want a corporate welfare state."

      bad form to quote myself, I know...

    72. Re:Religious Neanderthals by CannonballHead · · Score: 1

      I don't argue that it can't be proven. I argue that compelling arguments can be made based on evidence, but that is a far cry from proven. Give me some even somewhat rational evidence of Xenu on the edge of the solar system. I doubt you have too much.

      Atheism is a belief. It is a belief that there are no deities/gods/whatever. Have you proven that there aren't? No. Have you proven there are? No. So at best, you can simply say you don't know. So either your belief is misnamed "atheism" or atheism is a belief.

      Or my definition of atheism is wrong. I have found that most "atheists" that are outspoken truly believe there are no such things as deities or gods, not simply reject the belief in it. It's hard to remain neutral on things.

    73. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Kjella · · Score: 1

      However back to the original poster's point, I suspect that religion provided an organizational foundation or focus that allowed social groups to grow beyond the natural size of primate tribal groups. That allowed those cultural groups to tackle bigger problems than those accessible to pure tribal groups and gave them a competitive advantage. The altruistic components of many religions also probably make those groups more resistant to natural disasters since they can draw upon a greater geographical base which is more likely to have some part that escaped the disaster. Whether those advantages are still necessary in an era with nationalism and democratic institutions is an open question. However it would appears that the significant decline of religious adherence in many Westernized countries is an answer to that question.

      Actually I think the primary competitive driver is that to a religious person God/Allah/gods/karma always knows whether you've been good or bad and that there's always a reward or punishment even if you see none of it in life. Whether it's justice, purpose, comfort or hope you need then God can provide where scientists and philosophers can't. Even those that aren't very religious can say things like "I hope you burn in Hell" - we all hope someone will right the wrongs in the end. Or even in life we'd like to hope people get what's coming to them. It's a lot easier, despite the befuddlement, to accept that something is a punishment from God for your sins rather than being a random statistical outlier who won the inverse lottery. For us standing on the outside, it looks like irrational behavior together all these people acting irrationally are together stronger than every single individual maximizing only for themselves.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    74. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Nathrael · · Score: 1

      Atheism is a belief, since God has not been disproven.

      Last time I've checked, the burden of proof lay on the person claiming the existence of something, not the person being a skeptic about it. Or is disregarding Time Cube a belief as well?

      --
      A good education is a bit like a STD - it makes you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and gives you a desire to spread it.
    75. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the average IQ has continued to rise

      Huh? The number 100 has continued to rise? :P

      This joke signifies your ignorance of the actual mechanics of the IQ scoring system. Because of an observed long-term trend the IQ scale has been re-normalized multiple times during the 20th century. Therefore while the number 100 always represents the median IQ score, the actual level of intelligence indicated by this score can change (in so much as the IQ test can measure truly intelligence). An analogue would be comparing the numerical value printed on a piece of currency versus the actual value as measured by its buying power. For example, although they both have the same numerical value a 1 dollar bill could potentially purchase more of any particular good or service in 1960 than it would in 1990.

      Although the variability of both supposedly fixed values is analogous, it should be noted that the directions for changes in value different in each case. Monetary value has experienced significant inflation in the 20th century. Yet intelligence, at least as measured by the IQ test, has been slowly deflating in the Western World during the same time-period! That means that scoring 100 IQ on a test at the end of the 20th Century indicates you are (probably) a bit more intelligent than a person scoring 100 on a test administered near the beginning of the 20th Century (i.e. that the later 100 will have more "value" than a significantly earlier one).

    76. Re:Religious Neanderthals by AdamThor · · Score: 1

      The parent sounds flip, but there are various movements that gather together under the conservative banner...

      Conservative #1 - religious / social conservative
      Conservative #2 - fiscal conservative, small gov't.
      Conservative #3 - big-business + big-gov't, trickle down economics

      One can complain more coherently if one is aware of the distinctions.

      --
      -- "Oh. This guy again."
    77. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      Let me get this straight with 92% of the population believing in God and 8% atheist. If the 8% of Athiest had a IQ of 103 then the other 92% would have a score of 99.7, you are not doing much for your statement that athesist are smarter.

      Clearly people with IQs approaching 0 do not believe in God. Therefore, if the average for all atheists is 103, then non-retarded/non-coma-patient atheists must have IQs approaching 200!

    78. Re:Religious Neanderthals by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 1

      That doesn't explain why it would have evolved in the first place, unless you're suggesting that having large segments of the population controlled by a few individuals is beneficial for the survival of a group. Even if we accept that premise, it doesn't explain why religion needed to fill that role.

      Religion is self-stabilizing. Nonbelievers cannot mate with believers so religion is basically a modified form of sexual selection directed by relatives of the female.

    79. Re:Religious Neanderthals by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      I don't argue that it can't be proven. I argue that compelling arguments can be made based on evidence, but that is a far cry from proven. Give me some even somewhat rational evidence of God in heaven. I doubt you have too much.

      Fixed that for you.

      Atheism is a belief. It is a belief that there are no deities/gods/whatever.

      No, it's not.

      Or my definition of atheism is wrong.

      Yes :)

      Atheism is simply the rejection of theism. Theism makes the claim "there is a god, and these are it's properties". Atheism is a response to that claim - "sorry, we don't believe you". It is not, however, an acceptance of the opposite claim.

      Think of it this way: if you tell me that you are a billionaire, I'll say "sorry, I don't believe you". Based on the data available, I have no reason to believe that statement. However, that doesn't mean I believe that you're NOT a billionaire. It just means that I have no reason to accept your claim. If you can provide evidence, then I will accept your claim. Conversely, if I discover evidence to the contrary I will continue to reject your claim, AND I will start to believe that you are a liar. But my default position is one of simply rejecting your claim while not accepting the opposite claim either.

      I have found that most "atheists" that are outspoken truly believe there are no such things as deities or gods, not simply reject the belief in it.

      That may be so, however, you've got a bit of a selection bias there. First of all, a large percentage of people who self-identify as "agnostic" are technically atheists. Second of all, you're intentionally selecting a subset of atheists who are more likely to hold the belief you're looking for.

      Personally, I believe that there are no gods, or at least I've never heard of a god for which there is any evidence. That belief isn't inherent in atheism, though - it's something extra. If you want an analogy ... some Christians believe that the earth is 6,000 years old. However, that belief isn't a requirement of Christianity - it's something extra which they've added on to the actual theology. It's the same with atheism, except that atheism doesn't come with any theology or beliefs in the first place, so any beliefs that atheists happen to hold are by default an add-on.

    80. Re:Religious Neanderthals by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 1

      Conservatives simply don't believe in charity; they believe in mutually beneficial exchanges at best -- no handouts.

      Patently and provably untrue. you are stating your bias as fact.

      --
      I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
    81. Re:Religious Neanderthals by CannonballHead · · Score: 1

      Fixed that for you.

      We can argue back and forth about who has evidence, since the tendency is to simply dismiss the other side's evidence as non-evidence... with any debate, that's the case. Just look at the AGW debate.

      I understand the difference between the two apparent definitions of atheism... and dictionaries tend to list both, so it's difficult to know what someone means when they simply say they are atheist.

      It is not, however, an acceptance of the opposite claim.

      completely different country. In other words, many of our words seem to have gotten quite broad in meaning... seems atheis* words are that way. As well as "Christian" for that matter, heh... used to be a description of how someone acted - Little Christs - now it's just a belief set that encompasses people who act nothing like a little Christ...

      That may be so, however, you've got a bit of a selection bias there. First of all, a large percentage of people who self-identify as "agnostic" are technically atheists. Second of all, you're intentionally selecting a subset of atheists who are more likely to hold the belief you're looking for.

      That is true, I looked for and found a subset of atheists.

    82. Re:Religious Neanderthals by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 1

      I do not disagree in the slightest, but that was not a genetic issue (per se).

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    83. Re:Religious Neanderthals by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Don't underestimate the middle ages. While a whole lot of culture and organization was lost with the fall of the Roman Empire (some of it permanently lost), technology and knowledge did advance in at least some areas. Much of our perceptions are colored by the perceptions of the Renaissance, which was presented as a greater leap forward than it actually was.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    84. Re:Religious Neanderthals by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Religion is self-stabilizing. Nonbelievers cannot mate with believers so religion is basically a modified form of sexual selection directed by relatives of the female.

      That's not true. For one thing, in any secular nation it's fairly common for non-believers to mate with believers, or for believers of different faiths to procreate without changing their individual faith. Also, people seem to change religion like they change their underwear. Most of the converts to the Abrahamic faiths are apostates from another Abrahamic faith. There's plenty of intermingling there.

      Anyway, even if true, it still doesn't answer the question of why religion arose in the first place. It would only speak to why religion continues to propagate.

    85. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      Texas? I'll match that and raise you Mississippi.

    86. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Robotbeat · · Score: 1

      There ought to be some evolutionary advantage to religious thinking (or an evolutionary advantage which has religious thinking as a difficult-to-avoid side-effect), since (from the atheist's perspective) belief in God is a somewhat arbitrary belief, yet it is so incredibly widespread (including societies cut off from each other for decades or centuries, like tribes in South America, etc.), in spite of the large amount of energy/time that is spent by human society on religious activities.

      In my experience, religious (especially fundamentalist religious) people, whether Muslim or Christian, etc, tend to have more children while atheists tend not to have as many children. Since parents tend to influence their children (over and above children picking a random belief system), it's not unreasonable to suggest that this should manifest in evolutionary pressure promoting religious belief.

      A study from the Mayo Clinic states:
      http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.com/content/76/12/1225.abstract
      "Most studies have shown that religious involvement and spirituality are associated with better health outcomes, including greater longevity, coping skills, and health-related quality of life (even during terminal illness) and less anxiety, depression, and suicide."

      As irrational as it may be, religious belief may be a healthy human trait. That's not to say some religious beliefs won't cause quite negative health outcomes (i.e. refusing certain treatments, etc). And, of course, this does not establish the truth of any religious beliefs.

    87. Re:Religious Neanderthals by c6gunner · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We can argue back and forth about who has evidence, since the tendency is to simply dismiss the other side's evidence as non-evidence... with any debate, that's the case. Just look at the AGW debate.

      The ideological side of the AGW debate, sure. On the science side, it's quite a bit different.

      The word "evidence" has a pretty clear meaning. If you can submit actual evidence, I'd be more than happy to look at it. On the other hand, if all you can do is pull out Pascals Wager, a God of the Gaps argument, or a claim that evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics ... then you don't actually understand what the word "evidence" means. Those types of arguments should be rejected offhand, regardless of what claim you're trying to prove. If someone was trying to argue for a position in which I do believe and was providing "evidence" of similar quality, I'd reject their argument too, and call them out on it. Ideology should not be a basis for accepting or rejecting evidence.

      In other words, many of our words seem to have gotten quite broad in meaning

      Yes, that's true. That's why when people ask me if I believe in a god, I usually say "which one?". There are at least a few thousand different definitions. For all I know, your definition of "god" might be one that I can believe ... but I sincerely doubt it :)

    88. Re:Religious Neanderthals by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      There ought to be some evolutionary advantage to religious thinking (or an evolutionary advantage which has religious thinking as a difficult-to-avoid side-effect), since (from the atheist's perspective) belief in God is a somewhat arbitrary belief, yet it is so incredibly widespread (including societies cut off from each other for decades or centuries, like tribes in South America, etc.), in spite of the large amount of energy/time that is spent by human society on religious activities.

      By that logic, there ought to be an evolutionary advantage to being susceptible to viruses :) Or an evolutionary advantage to having two arms instead of 4, since 2 is such an arbitrary number and 2 arms are so widespread amongst the human population.

      Evolution isn't nearly that simple.

      "Most studies have shown that religious involvement and spirituality are associated with better health outcomes, including greater longevity, coping skills, and health-related quality of life (even during terminal illness) and less anxiety, depression, and suicide."

      Yeah I've heard that before. I find that study to be fairly convincing ... however, I have to wonder, how much of that is just correlation?

      Take one example: white males have the highest suicide rates, accounting for something like 70% of all suicides. White males also make up the largest segment of the atheist population. Is their increased suicide risk caused by their atheism, or is their pre-existing predisposition to suicide the reason for the higher incidence of suicides among atheists?

      Unfortunately, there hasn't been nearly enough research done to uncover the actual phenomena which these statistics reflect. I'd definitely love to see some more studies on the topic.

    89. Re:Religious Neanderthals by philosiphus · · Score: 1

      Catholic Charities -- conservative in a religious and social sense (not necessarily economically conservative) is extremely generous and funded by donations. EWTN is a conservative radio station (religiously, socially and for many shows economically) and is largely funded by donations. There is some division when it comes to Catholics, though: some seem economically conservative and others seem almost socialistic but none have advocated socialism as a governmental system or socialist policies for government because all governments that tend toward communism or socialism are anti-religious (Russia, China, Venezuela, Cuba...).

      The US Chamber of Commerce is partly funded by donations and fiscally conservative.

      I would say that I am conservative in all three distinct ways given by AdamThor, above, and I tend to give a relatively large percentage of my income to charity; I know many others like me who give both time and money.

    90. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "atheism is not a belief"

      "believing in things which do not manifest in the real world"

      Please point me to places where the lack of a deity has manifested itself in the physical world.

      Or, y'know, admit that Atheism is a theological position that denies the existence of the divine... in other words, a belief.

      Stop mixing science and theology - you disrespect both when you do so. Science doesn't deserve to be denigrated by turning it into a half-assed theology.

    91. Re:Religious Neanderthals by grub · · Score: 1

      Best sig I've seen in ages!

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    92. Re:Religious Neanderthals by justin12345 · · Score: 1

      Admittedly this is a little offtopic, but why don't we have a real sarcasm tag by now? We desperately need one as people from different cultural backgrounds and different intelligence levels can very easily miss the tone of a statement made on the internet, especially if its author of said statement is not particularly good at conveying their meaning.

      We should petition that a sarcasm tag be included in the next revision of HTML. It could do something simple to the font, like make it reverse italic, slanting backward instead of forward.

      --
      Cool art gallery, if you're into that sort of thing.
    93. Re:Religious Neanderthals by AlamedaStone · · Score: 1

      the witch-hunting/burning traditions of our ancestors are alive and well today. Perhaps less with the bone-breaking and the other refinements

      Not to be glib, but tell that to Rwanda and Darfur. Dehumanization is no less of a global ill now than it ever was. I would think that, according to body count and raw human suffering, it is a far worse problem today than it was during the Spanish inquisition or Salem witch trials.

      The advance of skeptical, critical thinking is very slow, is almost everywhere opposed by well-intentioned moralists harking for a never-extant halcyon age. So no, I don't believe cautionary dystopias are excessive or unnecessary. Some may even be brilliant. No one's running around screaming "the sky is falling". Just that you consider the tale and its implications.

      I entirely agree with this, but I would add that critical thinking is also a learned behavior, and a shield against objectification by an oppressive force or regime. We as a species can fight against what some consider dystopic certainty by arming ourselves and others with the critical skills to properly evaluate the world around us.

      This is a principle that I believe many slashdotters grasp. I find myself wondering lately if this critical mass could be employed to help spread cultural critique, rather than just discuss it amongst ourselves. Left, right, or center, we are a community of critical thinkers.

      --
      "All these years believing you're the signified monkey, only to find out you're just a big hunk of nobody cares."
    94. Re:Religious Neanderthals by geekoid · · Score: 1

      It's more of a median.

      But yes, the Flynn effect is an interesting one. So many variable makes it hard to pin point why this happens, or of it is expected to continue.

      Also, some bias in older tests where so pronounced that just eliminating those may have impacted the scoring. They are found and eliminated with time, not all at once.

      Personally, these test to to be put back top there original use": helping to diagnose retardation. Using them as a metric of being smart has been more negative then positive. I would rather people were judged on a motivation quotient.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    95. Re:Religious Neanderthals by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "Atheism is a belief"

      Only if not collecting stamps is a hobby.

      No, it's not a belief. I suspect there might be some sort of work look up thing in the tubes you use.

      "God is not something you can taste, see, feel, touch, etc., it's hard to be proven or disproven by science."
      That's pretty stupid. You test to falsify. There are many tests for God via peoples belief system, however they ahve all failed to show any data to support a supreme being.

      Also, there are tests for God.

      For example, prayer. Yu can tests the effects of prayer; which have been done and it turns out there isn't an effect.

      Now, you CAN argue that there is a God, he just in know way interaction with the universe, but if that's true, what's the difference.

      Belief without evidence or data is outmoded and harmfull, has been for over 200 years. It has out lasted it's usefulness and needs to go away.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    96. Re:Religious Neanderthals by geekoid · · Score: 1

      I would argue that religion comes from cognitive dissonance. cognitive dissonance was needed to help use deal with are surrounding and accept the inevitable while still being able to think and plan for the future of the tribe.

      Later is was used as a controlling mechanism, you see this with the invention of 'Hell' and the 'Devil'. It's a continuation of the 'Them over there are bad' mentality, except when you finally start to interact with 'them over there' you realize they pretty much like you are. Of course, with an enemy that you can never actually meet "Devil" at a place you can never actually visit "Hell" you have a convenient enemy to rally people around and get them to believe in your cause without thinking to much. i.e. exploiting there cognitive dissonance.

      Now it's all about control and power and is an extremely poor way to help people.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    97. Re:Religious Neanderthals by CannonballHead · · Score: 1

      The word "evidence" has a pretty clear meaning.

      Fire away, I'm not sure the definition you are referring to, hehe...

      Ideology should not be a basis for accepting or rejecting evidence.

      I quite agree. I see that on both sides of most arguments. Probably because it seems to be human nature to be stupid and think one is far more important than one actually is... aka "proud," but "pride" seems to get thrown around as good and bad, depending on the culture and times and whatever. Let me rephrase that: your own pride tends to get thrown around as good or bad. Other people's pride seems to always be bad when it grates against your own...

    98. Re:Religious Neanderthals by justin12345 · · Score: 1

      I like to joke that in the next few centuries natural selection will produce incredibly forgetful women (as the women who forget to take their daily birth control pill will be the ones reproducing), and people of both genders that are allergic to latex.

      --
      Cool art gallery, if you're into that sort of thing.
    99. Re:Religious Neanderthals by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 1

      For one thing, in any secular nation it's fairly common for non-believers to mate with believers

      Secular nations are a recent development, and had never existed until merely centuries ago. And it is still applying selective pressure.

      Anyway, even if true, it still doesn't answer the question of why religion arose in the first place. It would only speak to why religion continues to propagate.

      "Why religion arose in the first place" is a dumb question; that's a historical detail. Once people get ideas in their head they seek out people who agree with them. You're asking where an initial weird idea arose. People get them all the time. And as generations go by people pile more weird, often contradictory ideas on top.

    100. Re:Religious Neanderthals by denobug · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Trust me Texas is way better than Alabama and New Mexico.

    101. Re:Religious Neanderthals by dontbgay · · Score: 1

      Since I've seen countless people bite, I don't want to be left out. There is nothing genetically advantageous to being susceptible to a virus. That is another "organism" (I quote because it's been debated) overcoming our own natural defenses. If it were genetically advantageous, we wouldn't be making antibodies.

      Religion was the cornerstone for people to build an ideal that was greater than any one individual. Banding together to hunt and gather is something that's been happening in the primate world since the beginning of time. Even using tools has happened. The only thing that set us apart is a set of rules used to govern the body as a whole. The first people to wield the power to influence the body as a whole were the "mouthpieces of the gods". This isn't to say it's still necessary in this society. My whole point is: just as it always has been... a divine being exists or doesn't exist on faith. Anyone who disagrees is being disingenuous.

      --
      Sig not found.
    102. Re:Religious Neanderthals by denobug · · Score: 1

      Atheism is a belief. It is a belief that there are no deities/gods/whatever.

      No, it's not.

      By the way you defend it yes it is. Same way Confucian teach from Chinese culture is being categorized by Western scholar.

    103. Re:Religious Neanderthals by denobug · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Atheism is a belief"

      Only if not collecting stamps is a hobby.

      But having a passion to stop others collecting stamps and become active about it IS a hobby. He/she active engaging in such activies feels rewarded by such activities.

    104. Re:Religious Neanderthals by williamhb · · Score: 1

      Ah, yes. Slashdot... where correlation does not mean causation unless the study supports your prejudices. Does high IQ produce the bent away from conservative values and religion? Or does high IQ cause one to feel "superior to the masses", arrogance and then a rejection of these values? The study is not able to go into this. And assuming this is the same study as the one I read... was done on a college population (brilliant sampling technique, I must admit)

      It's the "college population" that is normally the root of the issue in most of these studies. Psychologists simply can't afford to study the general public (students are free because psych students have to take part in studies as part of their courses; the public costs). So we get most studies based on psychology students. Usually first years. Who are for the very first time living away from their parents. I wonder if any of those factors might make them a little, et, unrepresentative of the general populace...?

    105. Re:Religious Neanderthals by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      By the way you defend it yes it is.

      By the way you floss your teeth, your mother is a crackwhore.

      ...

      What?? Don't look at me like that. My statement made just as much sense as yours did!

      Same way Confucian teach from Chinese culture is being categorized by Western scholar.

      Atheism has nothing to do with Confucianism. One is the rejection of a belief, the other a complete system of beliefs. If you are unable to understand such a simple distinction, you probably shouldn't be getting involved in discussions on slashdot. I think 4chan might be more on your level.

    106. Re:Religious Neanderthals by ppanon · · Score: 1

      I don't deny that there's something to what you say and most major religions involve some personal code of conduct that amount to a social contract. However, I believe that that's a relatively recent evolutionary feature (the last few millenia) and I don't see that enabling social groups to go beyond the size of a typical tribal group. I think it's religion's power as a common bond and organizing focus beyond relatively short-lived familial/tribal bonds that has allowed mankind to develop the type of specialization necessary to move beyond the neolithic.

      --
      Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
    107. Re:Religious Neanderthals by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Fire away, I'm not sure the definition you are referring to, hehe...

      Ok, fair enough, there are many definitions :) It's probably easier to identify what constitutes invalid evidence. Logical fallacies of any type, for a start, should be disregarded. Anecdotal evidence is also right out. That right there eliminates 90% of what most people attempt to use as "evidence".

      Probably because it seems to be human nature to be stupid and think one is far more important than one actually is... aka "proud," but "pride" seems to get thrown around as good and bad, depending on the culture and times and whatever.

      I don't see anything wrong with a reasonable amount of self-pride - it's narcissism that causes problems.

    108. Re:Religious Neanderthals by outlander · · Score: 1

      I'm curious to hear evidence for this claim. Intelligence (whether genetic or cultural) is in general a highly adaptive trait which confers significant advantage on the organisms in which it's expressed. I suspect that the comment conflates pedantic behavior, which our society incorrectly associates with intelligence, rather than intelligence itself.

      --
      "Truth is what works" -- William James "It works!!" -- o-dark-AM comment
    109. Re:Religious Neanderthals by CannonballHead · · Score: 1

      I agree with you about evidence, at any rate, so far... I think people can agree on the definition and yet disagree about what is really evidence for or against a particular idea based on their own biases or presuppositions.

      I don't see anything wrong with a reasonable amount of self-pride - it's narcissism that causes problems.

      This again goes back to definitions... something significantly less than a narcissistic pride can create huge problems quite easily. Like not being willing to admit you were wrong or something like that...

    110. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Artifakt · · Score: 1

      There is no such thing as an Akashic Jew

      Woah! - if you start with a Kabalist (who would generally be either a male Jew of age 40+ and stable mind, or else a ditzy pop musician, but statistically the vast majority are Jewish males 40+),

                                                        AND

      That Jew invokes his particular holy guardian angel, who takes the form of a famous Rabbi of legend, such as Shimon bar Yocha.

                                                      THEN

      Any Theosophist would tell you that HGA was really a visualized evocation whose image came from the material plane and so took its form, (if not necessarily its essence) from the Akashic record, and so would really be an Akashic Jew.

      (I don't think the original poster meant that...)

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    111. Re:Religious Neanderthals by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Your analogy is not parallel. A system of measuring distance is objective. A system of measuring intelligence, though it may try to be objective, cannot wholly succeed at that effort.

      Although you attempt to lambaste me, I am not afraid to say it proves what I am saying. I have an IQ of 144, but I forgot Mensa was not an acronym. IQ is a rough estimate of capacity, it doesn't prove value in any specific, discrete way.

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    112. Re:Religious Neanderthals by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1

      ... does this mean they are getting smarter?

      Having been a parent for twenty-three years (even one that loves his kids), I should think so.

      --
      That is all.
    113. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Liberals in America think *public* resources should be used to help others. Conservatives think *public* resources should be used to kill others.

    114. Re:Religious Neanderthals by twerppoet · · Score: 1

      One of the great weaknesses of our system is that it is polarized into two dominant parties. Every movement or ideology that want's a fighting chance is forced to sleep in the same house with every relative, in-law, and squatter.

      Liberals or Conservatives, the only thing holding them together is their fear of the other party.

    115. Re:Religious Neanderthals by secondhand_Buddah · · Score: 1

      No - It just means that people have woken up the fact that they cannot afford more children.

      --
      Participatory Governance : The only feasible option for a real democracy, where everyone really does have a say.
    116. Re:Religious Neanderthals by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      You can always hope the current crop of Religious Neanderthals will be bred out as their namegivers had.

      Your use of the pejoritive "Religious Neanderthals" suggests that you have a social dysfunction, which usually makes breeding difficult. This is exactly what the subject means -- if you're socially inept, you're not likely to get laid.

      It also suggests that you are closed minded and have an axe to grind. Have you considered a little basic research into the subject? Unless some diety reveals him or herself to you or someone you trust who has had such a revelation, the only logical and rational theology is agnosticism. You cannot prove a negative. I sincerely doubt that such a creature as bigfoot exists, but I think I'd be a fool to rule it out completely. If I'd seen one I'd be insane to not believe in its existance.

      I'm not sure what you mean by "as their namegivers had", but you'll notice that religion precludes neither procrocreation nor survival. "Religious wars" are not about religion, they are about property and power. The powerful use religion to maintain and increase their power. A couple thousand years ago the world's most famous man man described these sorts of people as "wolves in sheep's clothing".

    117. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Vitriol+Angst · · Score: 1

      And Liberals are SMART enough to realize that trying to solve; Hunger, War, Poverty, Health Care, Prejudice and add anything else that isn't the military to this list -- by way of having a Bake Sale isn't going to work.

      Conservatives, on the other hand, don't really believe ANYTHING can be solved and all the problems in the world are due to people who are not Conservative -- THUS, charities are great, because it allows them just to donate to the people in the neighborhood they LIKE.

      >> Charity is really a "MY TRIBE" kind of solution -- and they can't scale very well, while on average MOST charities are lucky to have only 80% overhead. I know this, obviously, because I'm a Liberal and I don't just want to donate to appease my Ego.

      Libertarians, like Charity solutions, because things are going well for them, they are not sick, plan to be able to not have problems, so screw everybody else.

      >> The IQ of Liberals is skewed downward however, because I believe that many but not all of the two other groups that end up on some kind of Public Assistance, start identifying themselves as Liberals. So this is more of an example of "Social Pressure creating an evolution of IQ" -- if they've learned anything beyond "Well, now its my turn in the barrel."

      --
      >>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
    118. Re:Religious Neanderthals by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure that there is a way to compile real evidence for this.

      I consider myself intelligent. I'm no Genius, but I get by. My comment is mostly based on observation. Maybe I am observing pedantry?

      I seem to observe that high intelligences tend to specialize, over specialize IMHO. This specialization eventually leads to a feeling of superiority, locking in of ideas, and eventual stagnation.

      It's also hard to pick out smart people because smart people tend to doubt themselves, which can inhibit their rise, while there is always some asshat, to stupid to know they are stupid who runs to the top of their field and causes a catastrophe. They often look smart at first and may be smart depending on how you define smart, I don't define it by IQ.

    119. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      I didn't understand that last bit, but OK.

    120. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Danse · · Score: 1

      You can always hope the current crop of Religious Neanderthals will be bred out as their namegivers had.

      The true sign of intelligence is humility, being willing to accept that you may not be right, accepting new facts and new wisdom. This us versus them mentality you are perpetuating by calling "Religious Neanderthals" anyone who is not "Liberal, Atheist, and Sexually Exclusive" does not promote learning, reconciliation or understanding.

      I've learned that most of the things people say are true. That means that when you immediately reject an opinion that comes from the other side of the fence, you are arbitrarily excluding a lot of truth from your world view.

      Something to think about.

      You don't have to be liberal to be atheist. I'm not sure what you mean by sexually exclusive or why it would be grouped with those other labels. There is no reconciling of religion with reason. They don't play by the same rules. Anything more specific than deism is basically just mythology that gets interpreted a million different ways and labeled as The Truth by the folks that believe in it. So we have a million different versions of The Truth out there, which also cannot be reconciled, even though they're often based on the exact same sources. This leads to people acting in accordance with their belief in a particular interpretation of a mythology that is often at odds with reason, such as voting to impose their interpretation of that mythology on others.

      While there is certainly some truth in the sources they use, and often some wisdom as well, there is also much that is arbitrary, anachronistic, inconsistent, vague, subjective and just plain wrong that gets pulled along as part of the package. That's the real problem with worshiping a work of fiction. The mental gymnastics required to reconcile it with reality can be tortuous, both for the person who believes in it and for those who must live with the consequences of the decisions those people make based on those beliefs.

      --
      It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
    121. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Danse · · Score: 1

      I sincerely doubt that leprechauns and fairies exist, and in the absence of evidence for them (or indeed anything supernatural at all), it's logical to assume that they don't. At least Bigfoot isn't purported to be supernatural. I don't rule out the existence of a god or gods either in the prime mover/deistic sense. I just don't believe there is any evidence for the sort of interventionist god(s) that many religions would have us believe in.

      --
      It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
    122. Re:Religious Neanderthals by Danse · · Score: 1

      I think the results would be better if we could just have the social contract without all the mythological baggage that results in a ridiculous number of conflicting interpretations and the resultant antagonism over things that shouldn't matter because they're not real to begin with. Atheists get along fine and can live perfectly productive and morally good lives without religion. Believing in fiction is dangerous. If those suicide bombers didn't believe their mythology, would they be so eager to blow themselves to kingdom come? If Christians hadn't believed their mythology, would they have still believed it was ok to burn people at the stake?

      --
      It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
  2. eugenics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    just wait until it becomes culturally acceptable to intentionally modify our genes using technology.

    1. Re:eugenics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If done anytime soon, that's just asking for it. In the long run, stronger bodies, less disease, and longer, healthier lives are a good thing.

    2. Re:eugenics by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I doubt that eugenics in the classic pre-WWII-and-the-nazis-giving-it-a-bad-name sense will be back any time in the foreseeable future(and fair enough, killing people is really ethically dicey); but I suspect that other methods will become acceptable pretty swiftly after we aquire the technology to make them practical.

      Consider, for example, the historical trajectory of IVF. When it first became available, there was significant controversy(to this day, the official Catholic position is that it is contrary to natural law). However, because it delivered the results that people (even the people who condemned it) wanted, public perception warmed considerably. You have to look pretty damn hard to find people actively condemning the practice today, even among the sorts of religious hardliners who are stridently anti-abortion and quietly anti-contraception. Among people moderate enough to be considered "serious" in public discourse, the only controversies come up when somebody does something really tacky(e.g. Octomom) or there is some sob story of an infertile couple who can't afford to have the child they always wanted.

      Consider also the example of Trisomy 21, Down's syndrome. The population level incidence is roughly 1 in 8000, and has remained fairly level. The individual incidence is strongly correlated with maternal age. In the western world, average maternal age has increased substantially. Downs incidence hasn't. Obvious(but unspoken) conclusion? Selective abortion.

      Once sperm sorting gets reasonably cheap, I assume we'll see the same general warming of attitudes that we did with IVF. Proper genetic engineering will probably go the same way, though it really isn't developed enough for human use yet. Of course, it will be customary to vociferously condemn those who do it for the "wrong" reasons(hair/eye color selection, that sort of thing); but there will be enough medically compelling applications(you'd have to be a real asshole to oppose using genetic engineering to ensure that a child isn't born with cystic fibrosis, say) to make the tech commonly available. Once it is commonly available, the uses that everyone will find fashionable to condemn will be widely available, and widely popular.

    3. Re:eugenics by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      And then what? We'll all get ponies?!?

      Serious point though: if it ever becomes culturally acceptable to modify our genes in our -germ- cells and not just our somatic cells, then we will really have lost our humanity. I'm okay with someone modifying the genome in their muscle cells to cure their muscular dystrophy, I'm even okay with modifying your genome in your muscle cells to make them stronger, not just to fix a disease. But elective OR disease curing meddling with the genes in your testes or ovaries seems like we're asking for extinction as well as stepping on the rights of the next generation to determine things for themselves. I think we should allow our kids decide how or if to modify their semi-naturally inherited genes, and we should keep the immortal germ lines free of artificial modifications. For one thing, I doubt our ability to modify it effectively, I'd expect especially the first generation of modified from the start children to have latent defects. My gut instinct is that we aren't smart enough to direct our own evolution. The real reason I'd oppose germline genetic engineering though is just that something seems terribly wrong and foolish with passing on our decisions to the next generation so directly. It's like if you got a tattoo and it would show up on all your children. And I think there would be something completely dehumanizing if some kids from the next generation were modified to be super smart, which seems like something that would require germline genetic engineering.

      Maybe it ultimately won't matter, we have yet to be able to effectively genetically modify somatic cells, germ cells are a lot different and it's entirely possible that genetic modification of them will prove far too difficult.

    4. Re:eugenics by thms · · Score: 1
      And then evolution does not take place between individuals any more, but between societies which
      • use common resources to enhance themselves on a broad scale, even individuals who would otherwise not be able to afford such treatment
      • purely leave it up to the individuals to pay for genetic enhancements

      Being someone left leaning I sure hope the former approach wins, but it would be interesting to watch how the latter does on the long term. Might it eventually lead to two separate species? Or does the free market only provide "anti hair loss and prolonged erections treatments"?

      P.S.: Eugenics is such a nasty word, any chance it can be redeemed or does a neologism have to take its place?

    5. Re:eugenics by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      The point of the article is that people are ALREADY practicing eugenics as a cultural force, and it is the dominant force in human evolution at this point.

      People seek people who the current culture defines as "hot" - which changes over time. People adapt within a couple of generations to changes in food supplies. A good example is how the age of first menarche has dropped by 1/3 in 100 years, and how society has not only adapted, but reinforced, that trend.

    6. Re:eugenics by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      as well as stepping on the rights of the next generation to determine things for themselves

      The next generation has never been able to determine such things for themselves - that would imply that they have in times past gotten to pick their parents.

      It also doesn't preclude them being able to modify their own genes, if such tech ever becomes widespread.

      And when they mate, they DO determine their offsprings genetic makeup, same as every preceding generation has. It's called "hereditary traits" for a reason.

      There is no moral question here, except for mods that are done that are intentionally not in the best interests of the next generation, and the morality and ethics of this has been dealt with extensively in sci-fi. For example, intentionally breeding really dumb, docile humans as a slave underclass, or for a good supply of what we now call soylent green, but previously referred to as "long pig", or for the purposes of donating organs (and that last one has already happened when parents decided to have another child so the new kid could donate an organ to the older sibling).

    7. Re:eugenics by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      The concerns over practical risk are valid enough, meddling with complex systems is always tricky, and there is hardly any assurance that you'd get it right the first time(given the virtually limitless supply of people too poor to afford genetic engineering, or for that matter clean water, it won't really be a species level issue; but it could end up going quite badly for certain people and/or lineages).

      The rest, though, seems like emotive reactionary twaddle. Do I really have the "right to determine things for myself" having been stuck with my parent's natural genes? Would I somehow have less of that right if my parents had chosen what genes I would be stuck with, rather than sticking me with whatever assortment came out naturally?

      I'm equally free of(or equally determined by, the details are still subject to considerable debate) my genes in either case, it's just that, in one case, my parents have no control over the genes that I'm stuck with, and in the other case they have some or total control.

    8. Re:eugenics by hoggoth · · Score: 1

      We won't have a choice. Monsanto or something like it will be selling gene selection services without regard for it's long term consequences. They will bribe enough of congress to make any objection ineffective.

      --
      - For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat /dev/random (may take some time)
    9. Re:eugenics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I meant biotech changes like the parent poster was referring to. Kinda hard to avoid any cultural results, although eugenics usually refers to intentional practices. However, I would highly doubt that there is much genetic change occurring over just a few generations. Evolution just isn't that responsive, especially in creatures with long time to maturity periods and low volumes of offspring, like humans. I would chalk differences up to lifestyle changes. For instance, I believe that body fat is known to affect menarche.

    10. Re:eugenics by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      And when they mate, they DO determine their offsprings genetic makeup, same as every preceding generation has. It's called "hereditary traits" for a reason.

      From my perspective, there's something fundamentally different in directly determining one's children's genes and unintentionally determining their genes. It would be dehumanizing enough if people were running around intentionally mating to have children with specific characteristics, but few people do that because they generally have different goals in reproducing. It's fairly rare for people to -intentionally- select mates on the basis of genetics, and in the cases where they do that, I feel sorry for the children. Dumb luck rolling of the dice seems to be working well enough for us and at least allows us to think of ourselves as unique, natural people. I think that allowing parents to directly override nature and mold their children will produce some horrible mistakes, and more importantly will degrade our value of ourselves.

      I'm aware that this view is probably based more in paranoia or semi-religious beliefs than real facts.

      There is no moral question here...

      Wrong, there are ALWAYS moral questions in every aspect of medicine and when talking about human genetics, they're non-trival.

      ...except for mods that are done that are intentionally not in the best interests of the next generation, and the morality and ethics of this has been dealt with extensively in sci-fi.

      You seem to be implying that because fictional stories have been written about this subject, that somehow resolves something....

    11. Re:eugenics by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      The rest, though, seems like emotive reactionary twaddle.

      It is, but somehow putting it like that still doesn't dismiss my concerns for me.

      Do I really have the "right to determine things for myself" having been stuck with my parent's natural genes?

      I don't see why your parents should have that right, they haven't earned it. Our species has gotten this far without directly determining our genetics, and I don't see anything to suggest we're smart or mature enough to do so responsibly now. Merely gaining the technology to change our children's genes doesn't give us the right, at least in my opinion.

    12. Re:eugenics by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      What I don't understand is why the genetic engineering scenario would be ethically distinct from the natural scenario.

      Reproduction inherently involves forcing existence, under a particular set of genetic and environmental conditions, on your future offspring without their consent(you can't really get consent from somebody who doesn't exist yet, and by the time they exist, it's too late to ask permission, you've already gone and done it).

      If it can be ethical to force existence on your offspring, with any old genes that happened to be thrown by chance into your gametes(and it is arguably an open question whether it in fact is ethical. It is customary, so it is generally believed to be so; but there is a counterargument to be made, especially but not exclusively, if there is a high probability of genetic disease), why can't it be ethical to force existence on your offspring, with genes specifically selected with some good in mind?

      If the two are ethically distinct at all, why isn't the genetic engineering scenario ethically superior?

    13. Re:eugenics by Kelbear · · Score: 1

      I fully agree that there is a moral dilemma here, and like most moral dilemmas, nobody can offer the correct answer, only their opinion.

      The idea of humanity isn't drawn along distinct lines. It used to mean running around barefoot with sticks and stones. How many of us are still doing that? Evolution just happens. Michael Phelps may be half-man half-dolphin, but he's still human. Humans used to drag their feet along the ground when riding horses, until we selectively influenced their genetic destiny to create the behomoths they are now. I say we're human as long as we still say we're human. Our identity isn't static, throughout our lives from birth to death, even as individuals, we all change. My values have changed greatly since my youth. Whether I think this change was for better or for worse depends on /when/ you ask me.

      I think Slashdotters will probably relate best to the Star Trek discussions of genetic research and the "gene wars". The question came down to whether or not mankind's moral growth kept up with their technological growth. I don't think we're ready, but I'm sure the technology will come whether we're ready or not and we just need to steel ourselves to roll with the times.

    14. Re:eugenics by BlindRobin · · Score: 1

      Classic eugenics was just livestock breeding applied to people. Your view is abruptly short sighted and altruistic. Genetic modelling is something else entirely and, in the not too distant future when combined with increases in longevity along with bio-mechanical and neurological interfaces will result in a very interesting set of ethical and social dynamics that will no doubt result in some quite radical social stratification. Unless of course we self destruct before hand, and then it's all sand and mohawks baby.

    15. Re:eugenics by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      to this day, the official Catholic position is that [IVF] is contrary to natural law

      Only if you fail to implant all of the embryos. Because indefinite freezing is tantamount to abortion. It's not our fault that the costs of doing it one-at-a-time are too high to be practical.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    16. Re:eugenics by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      Abortion(or indefinite freezing generally followed by disposal once people lose interest and the money runs out) also makes the Church a sad panda; but the official position is against IVF per se.

      In the Donum Vitae , issued in 1987 by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith(incidentally, the current Pope was the head of that body at the time), they say the following:

      "But even in a situation in which every precaution were taken to avoid the death of human embryos, homologous IVF and ET dissociates from the conjugal act the actions which are directed to human fertilization. For this reason the very nature of homologous IVF and ET also must be taken into account, even abstracting from the link with procured abortion. Homologous IVF and ET is brought about outside the bodies of the couple through actions of third parties whose competence and technical activity determine the success of the procedure. Such fertilization entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person. Such a relationship of domination is in itself contrary to the dignity and equality that must be common to parents and children. "

      and:

      "If, on the other hand, the procedure were to replace the conjugal act, it is morally illicit. Artificial insemination as a substitute for the conjugal act is prohibited by reason of the voluntarily achieved dissociation of the two meanings of the conjugal act."

      Notably, this is Donum Vitae's most sympathetic conclusion, the consideration of IVF using gametes from a married couple unable to have children by any other means, that, hypothetically, did not generate any excess embryos. The conclusions for IVF using donor gametes or surrogate mothers are rather harsher(incidentally, this means that the practice of "embryo adoption" or "snowflake babies" quite popular in certain pro-lifer circles is also considered to be a violation of natural law by the Catholic Church), and the prospect of excess embryos really gets them frothing.

      In point of fact, of course, while this technical, theological, conclusion stands(approved by the prior Pope, written or at least edited by the present one in his capacity at that time, never rescinded); it is not actually insisted upon with any great vigor. The church doesn't threaten to deny communion to IVF techs or people who undergo IVF. IVF doctors don't generally get shot. A fair few catholics aren't even aware that IVF is officially condemned.

      Because it gets people what they want, and because it is hard to impugn the motives of the people undergoing it("Abortion is for selfish sluts who don't want to take responsibility for their actions" will get you a pretty sympathetic hearing in many circles. "IVF is for selfish baby-crazed poison-wombs" would get the shit kicked out of you in many of the same circles, and even those people who do think that it is illicit would probably call you an asshole for saying something like that) the practice has been de facto accepted.

    17. Re:eugenics by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      Humans used to have 12-20 kids per generation, and started breeding (and still do) in their teens. One or two kids per family hasn't been the norm until this past generation.

  3. Nothing to see here, move along by srussia · · Score: 1

    Lactose tolerance, amylase, hairiness... all functions of environmental pressure FFS. Of course environmental conditions have an influence on this "culture" they talk about.

    --
    Set your phasers on "funky"!
    1. Re:Nothing to see here, move along by Rei · · Score: 1

      I've long speculated that should our modern society continue in the way it's going, humans will develop better resistance to things like whiplash, since traffic accidents are the leading cause of death among children and one of the leading causes of death for people of breeding age.

      I also expect to see women able to have children later and later into life. Before, your odds of surviving that long and having a healthy enough diet and good enough medical care were so low that there was no point for your body to be able to have children that late in life. There's now a dramatically larger population of women who are physically still capable of having children except for the fact that they're post-menopausal than there were in historic times. So I expect to see that number slowly creep up over time.

      --
      The only way I would lionize Dick Cheney would be while he was still alive, and it would involve actual lions.
    2. Re:Nothing to see here, move along by Raffaello · · Score: 4, Funny

      Milk drinking is a direct result of culture - the domestication of cattle for meat and dairy. None of our human ancestors could ever drink milk from a wild Aurochs and survive - (think 2-3 meter horn span, one metric ton, and very touchy).

    3. Re:Nothing to see here, move along by icebike · · Score: 1

      Exactly my thoughts.

      Culture arose due to pre-existing minor genetic differences, not the other way around. TFA has it exactly backwards.

      Human culture may have purely localized and temporal affects on the concentration of some traits, but there is as yet no convincing evidence that such cultural concepts as beauty lead to more fit or more plentiful offspring. Observations on the street might suggest exactly the opposite is true.

      The 4 or 5 thousand years of large scale human cultural clustering is simply not long enough to influence any lasting human trait, and certainly has not differentiated the species beyond that which could be attributed to environmental factors.

      TFA has confused cause with effect, while ignoring the 800 pound gorilla of environment. You need only look to the social experiment named "North America" to see how quickly all of these supposed genetic traits disperse into a population and assume a statistical prevalence roughly matching their world wide prevalence.

      Culturally influenced concentrations are easily erased, strictly localized, and, as travel reduces enforced sequestration, short lived. But they are in the end, simply concentrations, not natural selection.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    4. Re:Nothing to see here, move along by O('_')O_Bush · · Score: 1

      Chicken or the egg argument. Cattle have been domesticated in sub-saharan africa where lactose intolerance is predominant. Natives of that region instead drink cow blood.

      For that reason, I think our ancestors domesticated cattle, then happened to develop a gene to allow them to drink milk, then adapted milk drinking into their culture. Then again, we really don't know.

      --
      while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
    5. Re:Nothing to see here, move along by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      For that reason, I think our ancestors domesticated cattle, then happened to develop a gene to allow them to drink milk, then adapted milk drinking into their culture. Then again, we really don't know.

      We don't really know, but still that's almost certainly what happened.

      Obviously we didn't have a "milk drinking" culture before the mutation appeared because we couldn't digest milk, and I doubt a "horrific stomach cramps and screaming diarrhea" culture would have lasted very long.

      However in the absence of domesticated cattle, such a mutation would serve no benefit and wouldn't have spread like it has.

      Therefore culture changed the selective criterion, and a mutation that before would be useless was now quite useful and strongly selected for. Role of Human Culture in Natural Selection? There it is.

      But being advantageous doesn't cause the mutation to appear... That's why it only showed up in some populations that had domesticated cattle.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    6. Re:Nothing to see here, move along by Elky+Elk · · Score: 1

      I don't know about anyone else, but after drinking Tiger milk on my frosties I don't think I can go back to Cow.

  4. Culture is a meme by hey · · Score: 2, Interesting

    First culture is a meme post.
    Culture is a parasite and the host is people.
    It just wants to propagate itself.

    1. Re:Culture is a meme by gmuslera · · Score: 1, Troll

      Susan Blackmore has written more than a bit around it, and her TED talk about this and the future is pretty interesting.

    2. Re:Culture is a meme by Kyont · · Score: 1

      Ah yes, the obscure but moving "7-13-9 haiku" format. Nicely done.

      --
      You shall see a cow on the roof of a cotton house.
    3. Re:Culture is a meme by Arthur+Grumbine · · Score: 1

      First culture is a meme post.
      Culture is a parasite and the host is people.
      It just wants to propagate itself.

      Burma Shave

      --
      Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure everything I just said is completely wrong.
    4. Re:Culture is a meme by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First culture is a meme post.
      Culture is a parasite and the host is people.
      It just wants to propagate itself.

      Nice poem, but even parasites can play a profound evolutionary role.

    5. Re:Culture is a meme by m.shenhav · · Score: 1

      Its all fun and games in books and videos, but the memetics movement has many problems. This is why the first and only memetics journal had to be shut down for lack of submissions. I agree that culture evolves, but Dawkins and Blackmore took the gene analogy too far back in the 80's and you just cant model it in the same way.

    6. Re:Culture is a meme by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Am I the only one here
      who noted that the first and last word of the first line
      of the haiku form a well known meme?

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    7. Re:Culture is a meme by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First culture is a meme post. Culture is a parasite and the host is people. It just wants to propagate itself.

      Ooh, a bit of unfalsifiable non-science. How rare to see that on Slashdot....

  5. Chinese Test Takers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So does this mean that the Chinese should be more inclined to do well in tests?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination

    Circa 605 AD

    1. Re:Chinese Test Takers? by T.E.D. · · Score: 1

      Actually, I could argue less. After all, selection is all about numbers of surviving children. An agricultural worker needs lots of kids to help with the immense amount of manual labor involved in agricultural work.

      On the other hand, someone smart enough to pass the civil service tests ends up salaried, and every kid they have is just an additional burden with no compensating reward. Thus they (like modern first world families) will have less kids. In the long run, their genetic contribution will get lost in the noise.

    2. Re:Chinese Test Takers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Selection in the wild is about surviving children "right now", and that is partly because the healthy surviving animals are close to equal in lifestyle, and they have a fairly short lifespan.

      Humans have societies, though, and that changes a lot, because each person can affect multiple generations positively or negatively. Consider the difference in these cases: losing your parents at 13; your parents get sick and you have to support them at 30; your parents are healthy until you're in your 50s, your grandparents live until you're in your 30s and you get a small inheritance.

      In the long run, a stable middle/upper class family that holds to the current US median fertility rate (2.05 children per woman) will drastically outpace a poor but "bursty" family with a high birth rate but low survival rate. And, historically, the *very* wealthy families tend to outpace the rest, because they might easily average more like 2.5 for several generations at a time with all children surviving. Just to plug numbers in, at rates of 1.9, 2.05, and 2.5, the fourth generation's size would be 13, 17, and 39. It gets really crazy if you carry it out to the tenth generation, which would be 613 vs 1310 vs 9536. Exponential growth is fun.

      There were a few studies a while back that bore this out. Something about tracing the modern population of, say, the British a few hundred years back, and finding the old nobility and wealthy very disproportionately highly represented and the old peasants very under-represented. Families that were poor for many generations in a row tended to die out.

  6. Biologists haven't seen it this way for a while by spun · · Score: 5, Interesting

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_evolutionary_synthesis

    The write up is misleading on many levels, and reflects a very nineteenth century understanding of evolution. Fitness criteria are constantly changing, and success changes the fitness landscape. Of course culture will impact evolution. The idea that it could somehow protect from selection pressures is just silly. Culture may protect you from the cold, by giving you a fur coat. Or you could evolve a fur coat, but would you then claim that the fur coat protected you from selection pressures and 'slowed down' evolution? Evolution isn't going some place, it doesn't have a direction, so it is a bit misleading to talk about how fast it is going.

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    1. Re:Biologists haven't seen it this way for a while by Sique · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Evolution isn't going some place, it doesn't have a direction, so it is a bit misleading to talk about how fast it is going.

      That's not entirely correct. You can for instance not give a direction for Brownian Motion. But you can give its speed (it is called temperature).

      Same for Evolution. While you can't predict the changes it will yield, you can measure the speed of change.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    2. Re:Biologists haven't seen it this way for a while by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's all pretty theoretical, right?

    3. Re:Biologists haven't seen it this way for a while by spun · · Score: 2, Interesting

      True, you can measure the speed of change. And the speed of change of the human genome has been increasing, not decreasing. The write up, however, presents a view of evolution as directed motion, not temperature. It presents a view where there are objective, external measures for fitness, where a species can be qualified as a success without reference to its environment. And it presents the rather odd view that our social environment and the natural environment are somehow different in regards to our genes.

      In short, the write up presents some outdated evolutionary ideas as mainstream, and the mainstream of evolutionary thought as novel.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    4. Re:Biologists haven't seen it this way for a while by m.shenhav · · Score: 1

      No its not. Population Genetics is an empirical science too and with sequence speeds going up and costs going down piles of data are coming in. You can measure speed in mean substitution time of beneficial alleles. A substitution event occurs when a mutation creates the allele AND the allele comes to dominate the population. Certain evolutionary leaps can reduce this time; for example recombination helps prevent one alleles fixation process from interfering with another. To me its clear culture is just another such adaptation, that allows us to accumulate adaptations within a single lifetime.

    5. Re:Biologists haven't seen it this way for a while by spun · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You are wrong. Wrong about what a scientific theory is, and wrong about the level of evidence for the theory. It is far from being theoretical in the popular sense of the word, and much closer to the popular understood meaning of the word 'fact.'

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    6. Re:Biologists haven't seen it this way for a while by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Evolution simply just *is*. It's change without purpose or goal. None what-so-ever. We just happen to call successful change that is passed on from generation to generation "Evolution". If this sounds cold, it's because it is. Nature's a bitch. Try not to get on her bad side.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    7. Re:Biologists haven't seen it this way for a while by tresho · · Score: 1

      that's all pretty theoretical, right? Not at all. In the bad old days, conquerors would kill or emasculate the entire male population of their prey, thus eliminating that particular Y chromosome from that population. A rather definite genetic change forced on a population by a cultural event.

    8. Re:Biologists haven't seen it this way for a while by Jamamala · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Anything thing that removes a selection pressure is going to increase the rate of evolution, not decrease it. By removing that pressure, you have reduced the punishment for a bad mutation. Therefore, any new mutations are more likely to be passed down, increasing the observed rate of genetic change.

    9. Re:Biologists haven't seen it this way for a while by tomhudson · · Score: 2, Interesting

      One of the reasons we were able to achieve such a large brain/body mass ratio is because we do NOT have a fur coat. >p> Humans have hair on the top of the head to protect against the heat of peak insolation, while the rest of the body is comparatively hairless, to allow for sweating.

      Let your body temp rise by 5 degrees C and see how well you think. When doing nothing, the brain only uses 6 calories an hour. Thinking raises that to 90 calories an hour. In other words, spending most of your day thinking will mean that your brain is expending more energy than the rest of your body, even though it's only a small fraction of the total mass. Trolling slashdot (especially on Troll Tuesdays) is a good example of an activity that does this, as are puzzles, social games and events, etc., where the cultural interplay requires active thinking.

    10. Re:Biologists haven't seen it this way for a while by icebike · · Score: 1

      I see nothing wrong with a nineteenth century understanding of evolution. More modern versions have added little, much of which have lead nowhere.

      Further, you have it exactly wrong. TFA and the writeup both exhibit a very recent understanding of evolution, not a nineteenth century one. You need only examine the Evolution Wiki article to see this.

      Fifty years after the arrival of rapid, cheap, global transportation is exactly the worst time to put forth a theory such as TFA mentions.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    11. Re:Biologists haven't seen it this way for a while by spun · · Score: 1

      Yep, great article in SciAm recently on this very topic. We had to evolve hairlessness and lots of sweat glands before we could evolve big brains.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    12. Re:Biologists haven't seen it this way for a while by spun · · Score: 1

      Wrong, the modern synthesis corrects many errors in the original theory, and adds a great deal to our understanding of evolution.

      Maybe if you presented some concrete examples, I could understand what exactly you mean. But you don't, you just provide some generalities and vague speculation.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    13. Re:Biologists haven't seen it this way for a while by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was just going to say "Isn't this a conclusion anyone who passed high-school biology came to? (except for Kansas)", but your post is more informative. The idea that there is a "rate of evolution" is just silly.

    14. Re:Biologists haven't seen it this way for a while by Mashdar · · Score: 1

      Small caviat: You can measure the rate of mutation, not the rate of "evolution", as "evolution" is a hindsight-only type of observation (ie X trait was evolved, ie X trait now exists in a sizable fraction of the species population). "Evolution" is mankind's way of describing beneficial mutation, but benefits are hard to measure a priori :)

    15. Re:Biologists haven't seen it this way for a while by Scribbler'sEmporium · · Score: 1

      Not true. The process we call evolution has a two very clear and sensible goals/directions - one from the point of view of the gene and the other from the point of view of the individual (sometimes these are in conflict), but both strive towards maximum reproductive success. Culture, social interactions, dominance hierarchies, mate selection-retention strategies, and investment in offspring are all play important aspects of human culture and evolution. BTW this podcast course (http://oyc.yale.edu/ecology-and-evolutionary-biology/principles-of-evolution-ecology-and-behavior/) is a really great introduction to the field. Highly recommended. Class #13 is releveant to this discussion on culture and evolution.

    16. Re:Biologists haven't seen it this way for a while by careysub · · Score: 1

      Small caviat: You can measure the rate of mutation, not the rate of "evolution", as "evolution" is a hindsight-only type of observation (ie X trait was evolved, ie X trait now exists in a sizable fraction of the species population). "Evolution" is mankind's way of describing beneficial mutation, but benefits are hard to measure a priori :)

      Yes and no (mostly no). You can measure the rate at which the genome of a whole species is changing. In the absence of evolutionary pressure mutations fix and spread through the population through the sluggish process (for a large population) of random drift. If mutations fix and spread faster than the background drift rate than this is prima facie evidence of evolution. So measuring the speed of change of portions of a species genome is direct measurement of the rate of evolution.

      What do these changes mean? That is a hard question that can only be answered in a small subset of cases, partly because we don't know the roles of most genes, and probably not all the roles of the genes we do now something about.

      But to say: "Evolution is mankind's way of describing beneficial mutation" is simply wrong.

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    17. Re:Biologists haven't seen it this way for a while by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Huh? I just asked if it was theoretical. The answer you give is, "yes". So what's the problem? How was I wrong?

      And why do I have to read weird letters to post???

    18. Re:Biologists haven't seen it this way for a while by spun · · Score: 1

      No. The answer I gave is "no." I can only hope you are feigning cluelessness for rhetorical purposes.

      "Theoretical" means something in common usage, it means a hunch, guess, or supposition. The modern synthesis of evolutionary thought is no more theoretical than Einstein's theory of gravity is theoretical. A 'theory' in science is not 'theoretical' in the common sense of that word. In science, if something is 'theoretical' we call that a 'hypothesis' not a 'theory.'

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    19. Re:Biologists haven't seen it this way for a while by elronxenu · · Score: 1
      Further to the above, evolution is a fact. We observe evolution occurring through fossils, genetics, biological research and other areas. The amount of evidence is huge.

      The Theory of Evolution is our explanation to account for these observations, including natural selection, genetic mutations and other factors. The explanation fits the evidence very well.

  7. Contradiction in terms by joeyblades · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Culture cannot play a role in natural selection, by definition. It does play a role in selection and evolution. That role is known as cultural selection.

    1. Re:Contradiction in terms by m.shenhav · · Score: 1

      Not if you consider culture as natural. Besides- where do you draw the line? Culture is often defined as transmitted behaviour, so when ravens on the french-spanish border teach cooperative breeding (they tested this with an egg swap) its culture not genes.

    2. Re:Contradiction in terms by Raffaello · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You misunderstand the definition of natural selection. The term exists in contradistinction to the term "artificial selection" which is to say, human controlled selective breeding of the kind that gives rise to domesticated animals. The llama is the result of artificial selection. Its wild ancestor, the guanaco, is the result of natural selection.

      Take the well known example of lactose tolerance. Nobody ever conducted a lactose tolerance breeding eugenics program - our ancestors didn't coral whole villages and kill those who were lactose intolerant and force those who were lactose tolerant to breed with each other (this is how artificial selection works). Lactose tolerance in European and African populations where it is prevalent, arose through natural seleciton. Those that were able to digest milk as adults (i.e., the lactose tolerant ones) left more offspring in areas where milk was widely available. This is an example of natural selection, not artificial selection.

      It is also a direct result of cuture. The only reason milk was and is available is because of the domestication of cattle, which is a cultural activity. So here is an example where natural selection, (the increase in lactose tolerance among adults), was influenced by culture, (the domestication of dairy cattle).

    3. Re:Contradiction in terms by MrBrklyn · · Score: 1

      The real question is if the crows are french or spanish.

      Ruben

      --
      http://www.mrbrklyn.com/amsterdam.html http://www.brooklyn-living.com
    4. Re:Contradiction in terms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah, it only matters whether they're American crows or not. See, anything Americans do automatically isn't culture, right? Because everyone knows Americans have no culture. Because whatever Americans make has no cultural value to it. This is because Americans have no culture...etc.

      Sorry, what'd you say? Circular something, I didn't catch it all.

    5. Re:Contradiction in terms by outlander · · Score: 1

      If culture plays a role in the selection of a mate, then yes, it can have an effect - that's sexual selection.

      --
      "Truth is what works" -- William James "It works!!" -- o-dark-AM comment
    6. Re:Contradiction in terms by joeyblades · · Score: 1

      That's cultural selection, as well. If cultural selection only applied to humans, it's unlikely that evolutionists would have bothered to dream up a name for it... or they would have called it homo selection.

    7. Re:Contradiction in terms by joeyblades · · Score: 1

      I think you misunderstand the definition of natural selection and the distinction between natural selection, cultural selection, sexual selection, kin selection, etc..

      Under natural selection, if an individual possesses a particular trait that increases it's likelihood of survival, then it may pass on that trait to future generations. Cultural, sexual, kin, etc. selection does not impact the survival of the individual, though it might impact the survivability of a population. The trait that enables the target behavior is not passed on through survival mechanisms, but rather through serendipity.

      It's still natural, in the colloquial sense of the word, but it is not natural selection, from a scientific definition.

  8. I"m a data point in favor of this... by starglider29a · · Score: 1

    My kids inherited my 'gaming' gene.

    1. Re:I"m a data point in favor of this... by icebike · · Score: 1

      Or your hand-me-down gaming computers...

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
  9. Culture evolves too... by m.shenhav · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Notice the phrasing "gene-culture coevolution" is consistent with Dual-Inheritance theory which considers cultural (behavioural) transmission as an evolutionary process on its own. This can also be extended with Epigenetic mechanisms and Symbolic transmission modes. Technology evolves too and seems like a sensible extension. Its not so far fetched when you consider that Reproduction (or amplification in the continuous case), Variation and Selection are sufficient conditions for evolution. Keep in mind cultural evolution is Lamarckian though... and different in many other ways too.

    1. Re:Culture evolves too... by icebike · · Score: 1

      Variation and Selection are sufficient conditions for evolution.

      Not without Isolation.

      And Isolation is quickly disintegrating.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    2. Re:Culture evolves too... by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 1

      You're confusing speciation, which requires isolation, with evolution, which does not.

      --
      No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
  10. Placebo effect by TheLink · · Score: 1

    If the placebo effect is so powerful (and it does appear to be - google for examples), being an atheist would make taking advantage of it less convenient and easy.

    In contrast, groups of people who believe in some unseen being that helps them, won't need another person to actually give them the "sugar pill", they can more often self-administer it. This can help the survival of their group.

    I suggest that this might affect the "natural selection" too.

    If the costs (too many human sacrifices, too much killing etc) of the religion/culture outweigh the advantages then the religion/culture then that group is less fit than other groups and is more likely to vanish.

    That said there may be advantages to Atheism. Some claim "clear thinking" (e.g. more rational), but there are still plenty of atheists who aren't that clear headed. Perhaps we'll see over a few generations if the alleged higher proportion in "clear thinkers" is such a significant advantage to the group.

    --
    1. Re:Placebo effect by mhelander · · Score: 1

      Your argument is not so bad,

      However mutations prevail when they are positive to themselves, not to the group nor even the individual. Certainly there will be a lot of overlap with regards to benefits to the individual (usually something that is good for the organism is good for the gene producing the effect) and sometimes there is overlap with the group such that what is good for the group also benefits the gene producing the effect. But when there is a conflict of interest (and there often is) the individual or group will lose to the gene. That is, a gene with an effect that is bad for the gene but good for the group will go away, whereas a gene which is good for itself but bad for the group will flourish. (At which time other genes may serve their own best interests by preventing whatever exploitation of them is carried out via the group, and so a new gene working to surpress the group-exploiting gene may evolve. Again, this only works because it is good for the new gene, producing the surpression effect, not because it is "good for the group" as such.)

      Thus your argument would be improved by substituting "good for the group" with "good for the gene(s) producing the effect".

    2. Re:Placebo effect by trurl7 · · Score: 1

      In contrast, groups of people who believe in some unseen being that helps them, won't need another person to actually give them the "sugar pill", they can more often self-administer it. This can help the survival of their group.

      So...you're saying Fox "News" can stop its broadcasting? Its target audience is already rather "self-administering", don't you think?

      There may be advantages? Some claim? We'll see?
      Seriously, you just appeared to defend mass delusion by saying that it has beneficial applications in regard to placebo? (I used "defend" because your last paragraph is full of disclaimers with respect to atheism while no such qualifications appear in regard to religion). Basically, if you're used to lying to yourself, you're better at doing it. Brilliant!

      Let me save you some time there, Skippy. We've got that society right here. Now, all we need to answer is this: assuming for the sake of argument, that placebo effect is less pronounced in atheists (I, for one, think that's crap), we have to consider the question: is occasional effectiveness of the placebo effect, which, at most, will affect approx. 1/3 of the people over a range of certain diseases worth the general damage that religion does to a modern, scientific society. E.g. the uncritical credulity, the anti-intelligence bias, the anti-geek hostility, the criticism of science as being "too rational", the 2000 and 2004 Presidential elections, the Senate's membership, the Congressional membership, Fox News, Oprah, and "the ice capades". You know, Bill O'Reilly's audience, that lowest common denominator with whom our society's leadership purports to identify by calling them "real Americans".

      So, is it worth it?

    3. Re:Placebo effect by gbutler69 · · Score: 1

      How can something good for the gene not be good for the individual/group and vice-versa? I cannont imagine something that would allow a gene to propogate that did not also confer increased fitness upon the individual and/or group. That is the fundamental thesis of evolution and natural selection. I think you imagining genes that have effects good for themselves smells like hocus-pocus and demonstrates your lack of scientific understanding.

      --
      Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
    4. Re:Placebo effect by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Do clear headed rational atheists regularly resort to calling people who aren't named Skippy, "Skippy"?

      From an evolutionary POV it is what that survives that counts. Whether various entities believe it's worth it or not, or think it's ridiculous or not.

      1) So far the placebo effect is strong and even present in some nonhuman animals[1]. Why this is so, I don't know. Some of the medical community seem to claim that it's even getting stronger (thus making drug testing harder).

      2) If you bothered to actually read my post, I didn't claim that the placebo effect is less pronounced in Atheists. I said that it's harder for them to access it. I didn't say that when they succeed it is less effective.

      3) I was saying that people who believe in some invisible entity that occasionally hears and helps them can more easily experience the placebo effect than atheists who don't. Atheists would either need someone/something to administer the placebo to them or have to jump through a few more hoops to self administer.

      I claim that an objective and rational view would be that this is true.

      Whether you like it or not.

      If you go on claiming that I said things I didn't say, it's your problem not mine. Feel free to keep your personal delusions.

      [1] http://www.thebark.com/content/dogs-and-placebo

      --
    5. Re:Placebo effect by trurl7 · · Score: 1

      You're right about the access - I did misread it.

      Is there any actual study, however, which tested how "accessible" placebo is to atheists vs. believers? Much of the effectiveness, from what I've read, relies on the person believing that the (fake) treatment works. I don't find that strength of belief is necessarily greater for believers - after all, a convicted atheist will believe very strongly in the nonexistence of god.

      Have we noticed a substantive increase in the health of the "gullible believers" who follow every quack doctor? After all, there are many quacks, they're not hurting financially...if believers have a more pronounced affinity toward placebo effectiveness (and given that many Americans are believers), have we noticed general American health improving?

      You mentioned placebo becoming more pronounced in animals (according to some observers). Would you conclude that dogs are getting religion?

      It's an appealing theory (believers being able to believe better), but I'm not sure we have quantitative evidence to support this. Unless there's further sourcing.

      Oh, and yes. Sorry about the "Skippy" part. I got carried away on the wings of misperception (I thought you were bashing my atheist homies :) ) My fault.

    6. Re:Placebo effect by mhelander · · Score: 1

      Can you imagine how something could be good for the individual but not for the group?

    7. Re:Placebo effect by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Sorry about the jab back - I shouldn't, but just couldn't resist.

      > Is there any actual study, however, which tested how "accessible" placebo is to atheists vs. believers? Much of the effectiveness, from what I've read, relies on the person believing that the (fake) treatment works.

      My reasoning is that some believers can just pray to their God wherever they are. And even if their God doesn't actually help (because of nonexistence or other) they could still experience the placebo effect.

      In contrast, atheists could try praying to the FSM, I currently doubt that's going to work as well.

      HOWEVER I may be wrong since that has not been tested (to my knowledge). Perhaps the relevant parts of the brain could still work to produce the placebo effect when you pray to X even if you don't believe that X exists. That would be an interesting result. However I'm not sure if any reputable scientists are going to conduct such a study.

      While dogs might actually believe in supernatural stuff, I doubt religion is required for the placebo effect, so one could not conclude that dogs are getting religion because placebos work on them.

      To figure out whether dogs are getting religion one would have to conduct different experiments.

      --
    8. Re:Placebo effect by trurl7 · · Score: 1

      No worries, it was well done :)

      One thing I've heard is that the placebo effect can actually manifest even when the subject explicitly does not believe in it. However, in such a case the efficacy is generally diminished.

  11. need the margin in order for whole to advance by johnrpenner · · Score: 1

    Wherever progress is to ensue, deviating natures are of greatest importance...
    The strongest natures retain the type, the weaker ones help to advance it...
    To this extent, the famous theory of the survival of the fittest does not seem
    to me to be the only viewpoint from which to explain the progress of strengthening
    of a man or of a race. (Uncle Friedrich)

  12. conservatives don't pay by circletimessquare · · Score: 2, Insightful

    for public or private resources

    the ultimate effect of a conservative ideology is a third world country: a rich upper class of a few, and a vast underclass of poor

    there is no room for the middle class in conservative ideology. this includes no room for middle class idiots who believe the corporate propaganda about "evuls socialisticisms". some people are their own worst enemy

    the money you have in your pocket is an abstract expression of the wealth of the society you live in. if you do not invest in your society, the money in your pocket loses value. if you invest in your society, you are paid dividends of a richer society, which pays you back with more business opportunities, etc

    "but dem freeloading welfare queens..."

    oh shut up retard. take a look at denmark someday. tell me they aren't happier healthier and wealthier than the average american. and then take a look at their tax rate

    i'd rather be taxed to high hell than worry about declaring bankruptcy if i get cancer

    but the conservative answer about a rising poor underclass (made up of previous middle class people) is to buy more guns

    the greatest irony/ tragedy/ comedy is how many previously lower middle class people who are now the new american poor (because of conservative initiatives like gutting depression era financial protections that created the real estate bubble) support with such rapturous passion the gutting of social safety nets that only exist to serve them. some people are full of so much stupidity and hatred- for their own neighbors, their own society, and their own government, that they only destroy themselves

    but i'm not going to let the morons take us all down. and if you read my words and agree with me, roll up your sleeves: there is a real life zombie apocalypse of propagandized retards out there, and we need to fight them to save our country from their self-destructive conservative stupidity

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:conservatives don't pay by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1, Informative

      You really should get out in the real world some time. Study after study has shown the conservatives donate more money to charity than liberals on a per capita basis and as a percentage of income. Liberals are happy to "help" people with other people's money. Conservatives are happy to help people with their own resources.
      I won't bother arguing with the rest of your post because it is full of a stereotypical understanding of what people believe and want. Like I said get out in the real world sometime and look at the facts.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    2. Re:conservatives don't pay by cusco · · Score: 1

      Excellent rant. I may steal parts of that for another forum that I post in.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    3. Re:conservatives don't pay by wurble · · Score: 5, Informative

      No offense, but I'm in the position to know the financial dealings of some tens of thousands of wealthy individuals, and I can tell you flatly and honestly that the primary purpose of the vast majority of those "donations" is to dodge taxes. The majority of such donations are to "foundations" which are run by agents who answer directly to the person who "donated" their funds. Such foundations need only use a small fraction of their donations on actual charitable work. In most cases, the work done is very questionably charitable to begin with.

      Don't let actual charitable individuals like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet fool you. Wealthy people by and large donate because there is a net gain in it for them.

      I would urge you to especially look into information about Charitable Remainder Trusts.

    4. Re:conservatives don't pay by spun · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Back up your wild assertions with some links, or everyone will be forced to conclude you just made that up. Here's one rebuttal to the assertion: http://immorallogic.blogspot.com/2007/01/liberal-vs-conservative-giving.html

      Basically, if you don't count donations to churches, the gap disappears. And why should you? Even when a church does charitable work, it comes with a sermon which is basically a sales pitch to join something very like an MLM scheme. It isn't charity, it's marketing.

      The idea that liberals give away 'other people's money' is ludicrous on the face of it. Liberals don't pay taxes? We're putting our money towards charity, too, but charity is a public good, and we demand that you pay your fair share of this shared good. When I give to a charity, you benefit. because the charity makes society a better place. Charities make the hungry and homeless less desperate, and less likely to steal your stuff. They make the useless and uneducated into productive citizens who grow the economy. Charities do all kinds of beneficial things, and everyone benefits, which is why everyone should pay.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    5. Re:conservatives don't pay by PPalmgren · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Your agenda is showing. The world isn't black and white. You paint conservative idealism, yet don't point out the flaws in liberal idealism. Idealism is dangerous in general, since the solution is always in the grey area. Deciding on a solution to a problem based on the current situation always beats deciding based on an ideal.

    6. Re:conservatives don't pay by MyLongNickName · · Score: 0, Troll

      No offense, but I'm in the position to know the financial dealings of some tens of thousands of wealthy individuals, and I can tell you flatly and honestly that the primary purpose of the vast majority of those "donations" is to dodge taxes.

      That is so moronic as to be laughable. You cannot donate $1 and get back more than $1. So, I doubt you really deal with the financial dealings of "tens of thousands of wealthy individuals".

      --
      See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
    7. Re:conservatives don't pay by Foobar+of+Borg · · Score: 1

      Study after study has shown the conservatives donate more money to charity than liberals on a per capita basis and as a percentage of income.

      You should really get out in the real world yourself instead of quoting Rush Limbaugh talking points. Where are these alleged studies? Or do you just believe they exist because your tin god tells you so?

    8. Re:conservatives don't pay by Captain+Splendid · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You cannot donate $1 and get back more than $1.

      You can with the American Tax Code. Ask Warren Buffett sometime.

      --
      Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
    9. Re:conservatives don't pay by wurble · · Score: 1

      If I make $1 in income, I will be taxed on that $1 and end up receiving much less than $1. It will certainly be less than $0.85 (Capital Gains tax is 15%). However, if after receiving that $1 I "donate" it, but still get to use $0.90 however I see fit, I've gained from donating because the $1 is no longer taxable.

      While saving 5 cents may seem like nothing, when talking about this kind of money, it gets big. It's not always "charitable foundations" though. Typically the money is spread somewhat evenly amongst various tax shelters. A little bit in a CRT, a little donated to the family foundation, a little bit in some variable universal life insurance, etc.

    10. Re:conservatives don't pay by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 2, Interesting

      [conservatives don't pay] for public or private resources Huh? Conservatives pay for plenty of both.

      the ultimate effect of a conservative ideology is a third world country: a rich upper class of a few, and a vast underclass of poor The ultimate effect of a liberal ideology is a third world country: a rich elite ruling class of a few, and a vast underclass of dependents of the state.

      there is no room for the middle class in conservative ideology. this includes no room for middle class idiots who believe the corporate propaganda about "evuls socialisticisms". some people are their own worst enemy I think you are confusing plutocracy for a "conservative ideology". A liberal ideology can lead to the same problems by believing all the propaganda about "evuls greedy capitalists". the road the hell is paved with good intentions.

      the money you have in your pocket is an abstract expression of the wealth of the society you live in. if you do not invest in your society, the money in your pocket loses value. if you invest in your society, you are paid dividends of a richer society, which pays you back with more business opportunities, etc The money in my pocket is an abstract expression of the wealth that I have earned. I know best how to invest my money. The money in the pocket of someone who didn't earn it represents the generosity of a charitable person, or the fruits of another's labor, taken by the state, diminished in value through the inefficiencies of layers of bueracracy and allocated to those who can get it.

      "but dem freeloading welfare queens..." These are the ones who don't pay for public or private resources.

      oh shut up retard. take a look at denmark someday. tell me they aren't happier healthier and wealthier than the average american. and then take a look at their tax rate Denmark is a country with a population the size of an average US state. Conservatives want to "conserve" the original intent of the constitution - e.g. the Federal government has very specific duties, and then ought to butt out and leave each State to sort things out, state by state. After all, who knows better what a population needs, then the people themselves?

      i'd rather be taxed to high hell than worry about declaring bankruptcy if i get cancer I'd rather buy a really high deductable major medical policy. Nobody can insure your health, everyone will die sooner or later. You can, however, insure against financial risks - like your house buring down, or a major medical bill. Allocate your resources as you see fit.

      but the conservative answer about a rising poor underclass (made up of previous middle class people) is to buy more guns Huh? I don't know what to say about this. Oh, wait, I think I just saw the perfect quote somewhere... "oh shut up retard".

      the greatest irony/ tragedy/ comedy is how many previously lower middle class people who are now the new american poor (because of conservative initiatives like gutting depression era financial protections that created the real estate bubble) support with such rapturous passion the gutting of social safety nets that only exist to serve them. some people are full of so much stupidity and hatred- for their own neighbors, their own society, and their own government, that they only destroy themselves There is a fine line between a safety net that breaks your fall and a net that catches one into a life of dependency. The greatest irony /tragedy is that the previously lower middle class of people who "use these services" are now caught in the net, to their own detriment, yet demand more and more.

      but i'm not going to let the morons take us all down. and if you read my words and agree with me, roll up your sleeves: there is a real life zombie apocalypse of propagandized retards out there, and we need to fight them to save our country from their self-destructive conservative stupidity But I'm not going to let the morons take us al

      --
      This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
    11. Re:conservatives don't pay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Study after study has shown the conservatives donate more money to charity than liberals on a per capita basis and as a percentage of income. Liberals are happy to "help" people with other people's money. Conservatives are happy to help people with their own resources.

      I've heard that before, but thats a lot of spin. Liberals feel its societies responsibility, as manifested by the government, to help people. They are prepared to tax themselves to pay their share, and given the concentration of wealth in the "Blue" states, arguably ARE paying with their money. It gets even more complicated than that, when you factor in tax credits. "Other people" pay 35% (or so) every every dollar someone in the top tax bracket gives to charity (prior to Reagan, that number was 70%).

      Look at state by state breakdowns of tax dollars paid vs tax dollars received, red states tend to receive more in tax dollars than blue states (Sarah Palin's Alaska is a shining example of this, spending about 3x more than other state per citizen in tax dollars), so argueablely there's less local need that can be addressed by local charity like churches, and higher costs of living in Blue states mean less disposable income available for giving to charity.

      I won't bother arguing with the rest of your post because it is full of a stereotypical understanding of what people believe and want.

      And yet you are just as guilty, with your 'Liberals are happy to "help" people with other people's money'

    12. Re:conservatives don't pay by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      While I agree with your stance on religious "giving", I think you're wrong in your overal conclusion. Try this article for starters.

      (disclaimer: I have no idea what the politics of that site are, I just googled and followed the first hit that seemed reliable)

      -- Although liberal families' incomes average 6 percent higher than those of conservative families, conservative-headed households give, on average, 30 percent more to charity than the average liberal-headed household ($1,600 per year vs. $1,227).

      -- Conservatives also donate more time and give more blood.

      While you may argue that a majority percentage of conservative "giving" is to churches (although I'd like to see some stats to support that assertion), you certainly can't argue that giving blood is a religious activity.

      Here's what the author of the book (the one quoted in the article) has to say:

      "I expected to find that political liberals - who, I believed, genuinely cared more about others than conservatives did - would turn out to be the most privately charitable people. So when my early findings led me to the opposite conclusion, I assumed I had made some sort of technical error. I re-ran analyses. I got new data. Nothing worked. In the end, I had no option but to change my views."

      Lastly, here's a couple more interesting findings, from the same data:

      - The middle class gives less than the working poor

      - Individuals from European countries donate far less than Americans, though European governments give more humanitarian aid per capita than the U.S.

      That last one certainly suggests that liberals are more willing to give other peoples money rather than their own, since European nations are generally a LOT more liberal than the US.

    13. Re:conservatives don't pay by spun · · Score: 1

      Again, it is not 'Other people's money rather than their own.'

      It is 'My own money, but I don't want other people freeloading off what I give, we should all pay since we all benefit."

      In fact, I'm unsure of what chain of logic could even be used to arrive at your conclusion. Could you explain how you arrive at the conclusion that liberals don't pay taxes?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    14. Re:conservatives don't pay by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      It is 'My own money, but I don't want other people freeloading off what I give, we should all pay since we all benefit."

      Heh. That's actually really funny. Let me see if I get this straight: you want to provide charity - free goods and services - to people who can't afford them ... but you don't want freeloaders?

      Sorry ... run that by me one more time?

      No, we don't all benefit. When I give money to a homeless guy, I'm not benefiting in any real sense. I also don't stop everyone around me and insist that they, too, give money to the guy. Charity is a personal responsibility - you can't mandate it. What you're advocating isn't charity, it's forced redistribution of wealth. The fact that your own contributions are, apparently, contingent on taking away my money too ... well, that tells me exactly how charitable you are.

      I don't consider myself either a liberal or a conservative, so I've got no stake in this fight. Put your ideology aside for a second, and look at the actual statistics.

    15. Re:conservatives don't pay by losfromla · · Score: 1

      I'm with you! Where do I sign up?

      --
      Only I can judge you.
    16. Re:conservatives don't pay by digitalhermit · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I will speak to this.

      Based on world per capita income levels, I am quite wealthy. In fact, my income is beyond the dreams of avarice of the inhabitants of several sub-Saharan peoples.

      Last week I bought 5 Casual Day stickers benefiting the American Red Cross. They cost $2 apiece, which is equivalent to me working four days in the field on a Guatemalan farm.

      Have I not done enough?

    17. Re:conservatives don't pay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think the worst part of the two above posts is that it illustrates what is *really* wrong. And that is that liberals believe that conservatives are destroying the country and conservatives believe that liberals are destroying the country. It's very easy to see everything as black or white, meanwhile, life goes on and is *neither*. The real world is messy and confusing and does not benefit from applying a single ideology to everything. There are certain instances where a "conservative" approach might make more sense, and others where a "liberal" approach will be better. What is important is to be able to look at each situation independently so that the *best* solution can be reached. That is what "intelligent" people do. The real "zombie apocalypse" approach would be to blindly apply one particular ideology to every problem, regardless of the outcome.

      *end rant*

    18. Re:conservatives don't pay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do we really need to link you to lmgtfy.com?

    19. Re:conservatives don't pay by spun · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Okay, I will run that by you one more time. Do try to keep up.

      People in desperate situations do not just give up and die. They take desperate actions. Not only do they not contribute to society, not only are they a drain, they are dangerous, and a destabilizing element.

      Keeping people from desperation thus benefits society. Yes, they are 'freeloaders,' but that is better than being a desperate animal with the brains of a human. And, because people value fairness and reciprocity over self interest, when we help people out, they want to pay it back and contribute to society. They aren't freeloaders for long. They become productive, and as I'm sure we both agree that the economy is not a zero sum game, the more productive members of society we have, the more we all benefit.

      See? Everyone benefits. So why should some people get away without paying for that benefit? If they are in a desperate situation themselves, I could understand, but if they can afford to pay for this benefit, and they don't, why should they continue to receive all the other benefits that come from living in a mutually beneficial society?

      What statistics do you suggest I look at, exactly? And where do you get the idea I'm a liberal? I'm far scarier than that. I'm an anarcho-syndicalist.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    20. Re:conservatives don't pay by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Most wealthy people are liberals not conservatives. Check the politics of states with the highest concentrations of wealth (Massachusetts for example).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    21. Re:conservatives don't pay by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Okay, I will run that by you one more time. Do try to keep up.

      GREAT!

      blah blah blah

      Um, I thought you were going to explain how you can have charity without freeloaders?

      And where do you get the idea I'm a liberal? I'm far scarier than that. I'm an anarcho-syndicalist.

      Ouch. I wanted to ask if you were actively advocating communism, or if it was just a byproduct of your attempt to defend an indefensible position, but I didn't want to offend. You've just given me the answer. I think it'd be best if we both agreed not to waste any more time.

    22. Re:conservatives don't pay by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I don't listen to Rush Limbaugh. I came across the study on my own. Someone else in this thread also found the primary study I was referring to (see the post several up in this thread). Although I have seen several other studies on the same. Google is your friend.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    23. Re:conservatives don't pay by spiffmastercow · · Score: 1

      Citation please. And donating to get a new 120 foot projection screen for their mega-church doesn't count.

    24. Re:conservatives don't pay by spun · · Score: 1

      Anarcho-syndicalism is not communism.

      Your counter argument to mine is to claim that I said, "blah blah blah." You basically say, "I don't like your argument, therefore, it must be invalid." Nice.

      I explained pretty clearly how one can have charity without freeloaders. I believe conservatives even have a simple term for it: "a hand up, not a handout."

      If you want to throw in the towel and plainly admit to all Slashdot readers that you have been utterly bested and can come up with no better rebuttal than "blah blah blah," be my guest.

      It won't be the first time I've demolished you in an argument and sent you home crying, and it won't be the last.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    25. Re:conservatives don't pay by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 1
      GP referenced "conservatives", and you substituted "wealthy". Although that nicely fits with slashdot groupthink, it's inaccurate. "Wealthy" does not necessarily mean "conservative". GP is referring to research that showed that conservatives give more of their own money to help others, and that these conservatives tend to be LESS WEALTHY than their liberal counterparts. I don't doubt that lots of rich folks like to hide their money from Uncle Sam. That doesn't alter the GP's point.

      Arthur Brooks, the author of "Who Really Cares," says that "when you look at the data, it turns out the conservatives give about 30 percent more." He adds, "And incidentally, conservative-headed families make slightly less money."

      [Citation]

      --
      I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
    26. Re:conservatives don't pay by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 1

      That is so moronic as to be laughable. You cannot donate $1 and get back more than $1. So, I doubt you really deal with the financial dealings of "tens of thousands of wealthy individuals".

      By donating $1 to a charity that agrees to use it the way you would like to use it yourself, you have basically spent that dollar on what you want, tax-free. This is the power of the tax deduction for charitable donations--you get to divert money that would otherwise have gone to the government into your favorite charity, which can then spend it tax-free.

      If you're rich enough, you can create your own charity organization and have it advance your own agenda. The problem is that your agenda may not be good...

    27. Re:conservatives don't pay by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Cute :) I'm touched that I've apparently left such a strong impression on you in the past, and sorry to say that I can't return the compliment. I haven't the foggiest recollection of ever speaking to you in the past. I wish I could say that I'll remember this conversation, but it hasn't been particularly memorable.

      Take care.

    28. Re:conservatives don't pay by spun · · Score: 1

      Well, I don't take it personally. Slashdot it a big place. I just met a five digit with a huge comment history that thinks just like me, and I'd somehow managed to miss all his posts for years.

      I like you because you're almost, but not quite as smart and well educated as I am, so I can easily out-debate you. Any dumber, you'd be too boring to debate, any smarter and I'd actually have to work to win. Maybe you've just blocked out the humiliating memories of your defeats at my hands. I've heard that approach is a popular coping mechanism amongst the less gifted.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    29. Re:conservatives don't pay by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Study after study has shown the conservatives donate more money to charity than liberals on a per capita basis and as a percentage of income.

      You know, the last time somebody told me this, I asked for references, and checked out three at random. Two had nothing whatever to say about the subject, and one said that people in homogenous communities tended to donate a bit more, and that those tended to be more conservative. So, technically, one agreed with the basic premise, but not for the reasons you'd ascribe.

      Ever since then, I've been very dubious about the statement.

      Nor does it account for the fact that, despite having one of the highest marginal tax rates in the country (not earning enough to get away from FICA taxes), I strongly favor certain initiatives that would raise taxes, including mine.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    30. Re:conservatives don't pay by geekoid · · Score: 1

      What a tool. You are basically repeating the new republican mantra, and like them not bothering to think about it or look at the evidence or even read the experts. People like that hurt are society more then any other group ever has.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    31. Re:conservatives don't pay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As someone already pointed out, it depends on what you consider to be a charity and what you consider to be "helping others". Charitable donation numbers aren't worth much considering the wide range of organizations that qualify as charities, and that's before you factor in the person's relationship with the organization.

    32. Re:conservatives don't pay by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 1

      First, people here want to argue that conservatives are selfish, money-hoarding, ignorant jerks. When that is disproved, they want to argue over what constitutes a charity. What I am mostly objecting to is the sleight of hand he uses in swapping "wealthy" in place of "conservative". They are two completely different things. Actually, quite opposite, most of the time. Despite indulging in a little bullshitting, he gets a +5 Informative from the slashdot groupthinkers anyway.

      --
      I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
    33. Re:conservatives don't pay by denobug · · Score: 1

      Even when a church does charitable work, it comes with a sermon which is basically a sales pitch to join something very like an MLM scheme. It isn't charity, it's marketing.

      I don't understand. Why is it so bad to have a sales pitch to do good rather than evil things? Athiest preach there is no God on daily basis. Can't church members demonstrate what they belive in action, such as prayer before meal and praising God for an opportunity to help others (to love others as yourself)? Prayer is an act of expression, so is lack of it by the athiests.

      Also just FYI quite a bit of church sponsored non-profit organization for actual charitable work actually tell their volunteers do not be over-zelous about preaching to the people in need. They want to make sure people are actually getting the assistance they need before someone opening their mouth and say something stupid and cost the foundation an opportunity to help people on a continuous basis.

    34. Re:conservatives don't pay by Artifakt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I like your point about liberalism and taxation - to put it simply, nobody gets to vote for spending just other people's money on a cause, they have to include raising their own taxes with everyone else's.

      However, I have to take exception to this:

      Basically, if you don't count donations to churches, the gap disappears. And why should you? Even when a church does charitable work, it comes with a sermon which is basically a sales pitch to join something very like an MLM scheme. It isn't charity, it's marketing.

      I'm on the outreach committee of a church. This involves donating specifically to non-members and non-member causes. We have other charitable funding earmarked for our own members who become destitute or ill, but this money all goes outside the church, and much of it outside the local community. First, about $32,000 a year goes to Haiti (and that will go up this year for obvious reasons). Other money goes to various medical flight providers, some people doing experimental plant breeding three states away from our location, some middle east peace initiatives, and other such causes.
            Then there's money going to northern Ireland to promote peace there. You could argue we're preaching a bit on that, because we have about 25-50 kids of mixed Protestant and Catholic backgrounds we bring to the US for a couple of weeks each year as part of this. Since they already are mostly Christians,and their parents want them to practice, they mostly attend services with us or our local R.C. 'competition' when they are in the US, although that's optional. I don't know of any offhand who has ever moved to our area, but some have immigrated to the US as adults, so they could conceivably become members, and make enough to donate more than they once got. That sounds like lousy odds, or an incredibly poor rate of return if you prefer.
            None of that money seems to be actually getting us members in our locale, so far. Then we feed some more local families. They are selected for us by people who work for the local school systems as counselors. The conditions to put them on or take them off the list are thus agreed to with secular government officials, and are basically that the kids in those families stay in school and get decent grades. We have completely relinquished any right to vet these people based on their religion, if any. If we're preaching to them, it's pretty well limited to wishing them a Merry Christmas or Happy thanksgiving as they leave.
            There's a local ecumenical storehouse, which provides free, mostly used furniture and fixtures to the poor. The quickest way on their list is for a local fire department official to put a family on there after they have a burnout, rather than to listen to any sermons. Certainly nobody is making anyone sit and listen to anything spiritual or promise themselves to Jesus before they will load a kid's mattress and springs on a truck and tie it down, although I have made a few people promise to not drive over 45 with the load.
            The idea that we can help people enough that they start being able to give and help others actually doesn't sound so bad. I wish what we do could be a multi level marketing scheme, where the various people we help, get rich enough to take up the load and help others in the same way. That's simply, absurdly far from reality, where most people who start off poor stay poor, and never get to the point whey they can pay anything forward. We are accomplishing a lot more survival than real leg ups,

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    35. Re:conservatives don't pay by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1, Informative

      Do a search for the book "Who Really Cares". There are several other sources, but that is the one most thoroughly researched. I have seen blogs "debunking" the book, but I have never seen anybody do any thorough research that contradicts his conclusions.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    36. Re:conservatives don't pay by twerppoet · · Score: 1

      On the internet, and without a neutral referee, declaring yourself the winner is just declaring the argument lost with a bit of arrogance thrown in.

      The purpose of an argument is to convince or prove. The only win is when the other side suddenly discovers that what you've been saying is what they meant to say from the beginning, or would have said if they had possessed all the facts.

    37. Re:conservatives don't pay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree with you.

      I am an athiest, pro-abortion, and don't care if gays get married. I am also fiscally conservative, pro-gun and pro-death penalty.

      I have voted in every election and the last person I voted for who won was Ronald Regan... what am I?

    38. Re:conservatives don't pay by spun · · Score: 1

      I knew that was a bit unfair when I wrote it, and I totally deserve to get called on it by someone who actually does good charitable work through a church. Sorry.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    39. Re:conservatives don't pay by spun · · Score: 1

      No shit. When someone stops trying to have an argument, and starts using ad hominems, then it's time to whip out the abuse. What's the point in arguing with someone who won't even acknowledge your argument as anything more than (and I'm quoting here) 'blah blah blah.'

      I'm not the one that needs your advice, friend.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    40. Re:conservatives don't pay by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Even when a church does charitable work, it comes with a sermon which is basically a sales pitch to join something very like an MLM scheme.

      You neither have to go to church nor listen to a sermon to donate to a church. I've never seen a church that doesn't welcome donations from anyone.

    41. Re:conservatives don't pay by spun · · Score: 1

      My point was that you generally have to listen to a sermon to receive the charity, but I was kind of just being a dick saying that. Some churches do good charitable works without proselytizing.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    42. Re:conservatives don't pay by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      The money in my pocket is an abstract expression of the wealth that I have earned. I know best how to invest my money.

      Your definition of "earned" varys quite considerably from mine. I earn my money by working. The interst I accrue in my savings account is not "earned"; I did nothing to gain that money. I earn money by either creating wealth, or providing a service to enable others to create wealth. The guy on the factory floor creates the wealth, the bookkeeper provides a service to to enable the guy on the factory fllor to create the wealth, which mostly goes to stockholders, who do not work for their money; their money works for them. They earn nothing.

      The money in the pocket of someone who didn't earn it represents the generosity of a charitable person, or the fruits of another's labor

      I see you agree with me; your wealth comes from my labor. Buying stock or making a bank deposit is not by any definition "labor".

      diminished in value through the inefficiencies of layers of bueracracy and allocated to those who can get it.

      Governments have no monopoly on bureaucracy. The larger any organization becomes, the more bureaucracy is necessary. The American health insurance industry is an excellent example of various inneficient and unnecessary bureaucracies.

      "but dem freeloading welfare queens..." These are the ones who don't pay for public or private resources.

      IBM, Kodak, etc.

      You can, however, insure against financial risks - like your house buring down, or a major medical bill.

      Most people cannot afford to both insure against a major medical bill and eat.

      There is a fine line between a safety net that breaks your fall and a net that catches one into a life of dependency

      The PORA enacted in 1996 ended that. There is no more AFDC entitlement, which I agree was a travesty that locked people into poverty. It was replaced by TANF, which has a lifetime limit of five years, and one cannot recieve benefits for more than two years in a row. We no longer have generational welfare in the US, but be still have generational poverty.

      There are both liberal retards and conservative retards. They're referred to as "wingnuts".

    43. Re:conservatives don't pay by magarity · · Score: 1

      The guy on the factory floor creates the wealth
       
      You've missed an important point - Please re-read The Wealth of Nations. Wealth can only be created at the intersection of three factors: Land (resources), Labor, and Capital. All three providers earn a share of the results. Without capital (to build the factory in your example) or the resources to make something therein, the laborer can do nothing. So the capital provider definitely earns a share of the created wealth. To say they don't earn it is to say their part is unneeded, but it clearly is. But that doesn't mean the laborer doesn't also earn a part. All three providers earn part of a positive total sum.

    44. Re:conservatives don't pay by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Capital and land make wealth creation easier and more efficient, but are not necessities. I can pick up seashells on the sea shore and string them into a neclace with a bit of something found, and I have created wealth - the necklace. Much art is made of "found objects". I can expend my labor fishing, and have food, another form of wealth. At some time in human history, there was no such thing as capital, and land was owned by no one, but even in the absense of capital and owned land there was wealth.

      The idea that free equale worthless is a fallacy. My most important resource is air; I literally cannot live without it. But I pay nothing for it.

    45. Re:conservatives don't pay by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      My friend gave me a reference to a website that cited "Who Really Cares", and I tracked down three studies listed on the website. My conclusion is that the website was dishonest, which casts doubt on the whole thing. It's hardly conclusive, but there's lots of potentially crackpot claims in the world, and a lot of people lying for political purposes, and I'm not going to go out and acquire a book just to see about debunking it.

      Moreover, you seem to be saying "Conservatives give more to charity than liberals", and supporting it by not knowing of research that contradicts that. I don't believe things on the basis that I don't know of contradictions.

      If you want me to believe that conservatives give more, please let me know where I can find studies supporting that claim, so I can evaluate them myself. As of when I did my original reading, I do not trust secondary sources.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    46. Re:conservatives don't pay by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Read the book "Who Really Cares".

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
  13. WOW! Humans can alter their DNA during life!? by denzacar · · Score: 0, Troll

    From TFA:

    Most people switch off the gene that digests the lactose in milk shortly after they are weaned, but in northern Europeans -- the descendants of an ancient cattle-rearing culture that emerged in the region some 6,000 years ago -- the gene is kept switched on in adulthood.

    Like, totally.
    See? Hitler WAS right after all. There ARE Superior humans, and they are North Europeans.

    Or is it actually more like their milk-gene is stuck, unable to switch off later in life?
    So Hitler was actually wrong, because North Europeans are unable to alter their DNA, but he was right because that genetic "flaw" makes them superior cause they can feed off a cow for longer than the humans that can't eat milk products?

    No... wait... I got it...
    Nicholas Wade (The author of TFA) thinks that "enzyme" and gene" are the same thing.
    That's it. Yet another mystery solved. Thanks to my superior genes.

    --
    Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
    1. Re:WOW! Humans can alter their DNA during life!? by SirGarlon · · Score: 1

      Actually, yes, all organisms can alter how their genes are expressed during life. The study of this is called epigenetics and it is a fairly recent sub-field in biology.

      --
      [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
  14. Mental masturbation by oldhack · · Score: 1

    nt

    --
    Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
  15. social evolution by johnrpenner · · Score: 2, Informative

    the nobel prize winner, john eccles - brain neurologist considers the known/experienceable world to actually be comprised of three 'worlds' -- i) that of matter, ii) that of states of consciousness, and iii) objective knowledge -- 'the sum total of human culture':

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Eccles_(neurophysiologist)#Philosophy

    there is not only an evolution of the physical human form, but also an evolution in the states of consciousness mankind has achieved in order to attain to the states of consciousness which prevail in order to, for example make scientific and logical judgements -- evolution of consciousness, and its consequences must be taken be taken into account, because all that you see as the effects of HUIMANS -- cities, bridges, buildings -- is all due to a change in the consditions of consciousness that humans have developed.

    in fact, the social organization may be more important than the material organization. there are enough physical resources and technological expertise on this planet to feed every woman, child and man on this planet -- given that we are adequately socially organized -- this is not yet the case, so war and poverty are not necessarily a lack-of-resources issue -- but a social one.

    2cents from toronto island
    jrp

    1. Re:social evolution by johnrpenner · · Score: 1

      You can't say civilization doesn't advance,
      for in every war they kill you a new way. (Will Rogers)

    2. Re:social evolution by geekoid · · Score: 1

      He was a neurophysiologist not a neurologist.

      Also, his three minds stem from him trying to reconcile something he believe with scientific facts. the cognitive dissonance he need to come up with the three worlds must have been incredible.

      Is work on synapses that lead to his Nobel prize was excellent, but in in no way supports his '3 worlds' philosophy. If it did it wouldn't be philosophy, it would be science.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  16. Well this is obvious by Com2Kid · · Score: 1

    What else explains why all little Chinese girls are born knowing how to play classical Piano?

    (I kid, I kid)

    Seriously though, this does seem rather obvious. People who cannot keep up with societies expectations do not have as much luck breeding. Duh.

  17. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  18. Re:I'm a data point in favor of this... by Crudely_Indecent · · Score: 1

    My son inherited my 'resist authority' gene.

    I'll continue to pay for that one.

    --


    "Lame" - Galaxar
  19. theist/atheist fundamentalists suck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Another example of a non-religious topic being highjacked for the sake of attacking religion. You are no better than a theist/atheist fundamentalist that relentlessly attacks every idea that does not agree with thier own.

  20. Evolves the meme by moteyalpha · · Score: 2, Funny

    In Russia the culture evolves you. Karma whoring is the oldest profession.

  21. Domesticating Sheep by MrBrklyn · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Sometimes the obvious just sits in front of your nose and you can't see it, even with a room full of PhD's. Mankind domesticated Sheep, Dogs, Cattle, Horses, pigs, and Chickens, all resulting in a diverse array of sub-types and phenotypes. Low and Behold, the very first species that we domesticates was Mankind itself...

    Why do they think that Water Buffalo and Elephants can drink from Savana Mud and water holes, but humans would die in if they did so weeks...

    Wow...mankind's evolution is influenced by mankind's culture and breeding selections. Big surprise but it is OBVIOUS. Even birds self select for color and such..

    This was hotly discussed with the OLPC debates and I'll quote this:

    In response to many of the questions regarding the changes in the
    OLPC project, and specifically the decision to base the project at
    this juncture to a Microsoft Operating System, proponents of this
    change have come out swinging against Free Software developers who
    have worked for the current Free Interface, code named Sugar. A
    large segment of the critique of the against Free Software developers
    like Bender is that they have put their "Open Source" agenda above the
    welfare of the project. Others claim that the "Open Source" advocates
    should be pleased with the what has already been done and that the
    project as it stands can either be relaunched or has already met
    goals.

    The problem, though, is that in many ways, the marketing and financial
    positioning of the OLPC program is harder to develop then the hardware
    and software. And the goals that have been met are small in light of
    the original mission of the OLPC project.

    An operating system is more than a commodity. It becomes the looking
    glass that develops how the user thinks and it literally shapes
    the mind of it's users. A system which is at it's core designed to
    disenfranchise users from the learning experience, especially in how
    the user views the software itself through learned expectations, and
    forces information access through monopolistic channels and filters,
    undermines the development of critical thinking skills. In geek terms,
    the operating system reprograms the end user. The Microsoft operating
    system is designed to do so from the ground up. It is in fact the only
    intended use of the Microsoft Windows Operating System franchise.

    The interaction between technology on human and societal development
    dates to the beginning of civilization, if not even before that.
    One interesting scholarly article on the topic which is archived at
    http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources/technology_changes_how_we_think.txt
    by Robin Wilson explores how the Gutenberg printing printing press causes
    an explosion of mathematical usage and development, and how a large part
    of that was developed by the standardization of mathematical symbols
    for universal communication and expression.

    " Johann Gutenbergâ(TM)s invention of the printing press (around 1440)
    revolutionised mathematics, enabling classic mathematical works to be
    widely available for the first time. Previously, scholarly works, such
    as the classical texts of Euclid, Archimedes and Apollonius had been
    available only in manuscript form, but the printed versions made these
    works much more widely available.

    At first the new books were printed in Latin or Greek for the scholar,
    and many scholarly editions appeared. The earliest printed version
    of Euclid's Elements, published in Venice in 1482, and there is an
    attractive 1492 edition of Ptolemy's Almagest. Apollonius's Conics
    appeared in 1537, and seven years later the works of Archimedes were
    published in both Latin and Greek, and there was a celebrated edition
    of Diophantus's Arithmetic in 1621, reissued in 1670, with the Greek
    text, a Latin translation by Bachet, and comments by Fermat, including
    his famous marginal comment on the 'last

    --
    http://www.mrbrklyn.com/amsterdam.html http://www.brooklyn-living.com
  22. The bad old days all over again by handy_vandal · · Score: 1

    "If a narrow definition of genocide is used, as favoured by the international courts, then during the Srebrenica massacre between 8,000 and 9,000 men and boys were murdered and the remainder of the population (between 25,000-30,000, women, children and elderly people) was forced to leave the area. If a wider definition is used, then the number is much larger ....."

    - Bosnian Genocide

    --
    -kgj
  23. You're saying we've been breeding for accountancy? by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 1

    And we still can't run an advanced economy without bubbles?

    --
    Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
  24. it would be nice if your lip service by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    translated into reality

    but the simple truth is that those who say dismissively "charity will take care of it" don't actually give to charity

    such that the giving must be compulsory, for the sake of those who don't understand they are part of a society, they derive their income from a healthy functioning society, and so must be compelled to pay the maintenance they owe but don't understand. their animosity towards this compulsory payment is not derived from a superior way to run a society, but a simple stupid, shortsighted selfishness to not contribute. of course, plenty of them DO have "ideas", which when analyzed boil down to nothing more than "i got mine, fuck you" to the point of destruction of the society that sustains them: just because you believe you are an island doesn't mean you actually are one

    if the contribution is voluntary, very few give, and you get a third world hell hole. i don't know why people can't see this simple truth

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:it would be nice if your lip service by spun · · Score: 1

      Man, I thought your 'lip service' comment was directed at me, and I was all set for a good huff. But it must not have been directed at me, because the actual body of your comment agrees with me.

      BTW, I like your new sig. What ever happened with the movie? Last I checked on your blog, (a while ago) I think it was actually in post production. Any release? Any showings? It sounded kinda cool. I know we get in great big huffy arguments a lot, but I don't actually dislike you.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    2. Re:it would be nice if your lip service by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      They actually are underground Marxists who try to make the situation so bad that the revolution starts. However, Marx was wrong: The people just don't revolt.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  25. You'd think at this point by Low+Ranked+Craig · · Score: 2, Funny

    most women would have DDD breasts and men would have penises that hang to the knee...

    --
    I still cannot find the droids I am looking for...
    1. Re:You'd think at this point by careysub · · Score: 1

      most women would have DDD breasts and men would have penises that hang to the knee...

      In fact, those organs are already much larger than comparative anatomy with other primates would lead you to expect.

      Give us another few millenia. Of course, surgical enhancement will likely remove any selective pressure on actual genotypes.

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    2. Re:You'd think at this point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know you are aiming for humor but from what I see on the female side that is where we are heading. I notice a lot more well endowed young ladies these days. Talking to folks older than me they agree to an increasing trend.

      Now bust size is definitely related to caloric intake and there is a fine line between well endowed and just big everywhere.

      My suspicion is male size has a relatively "hard" limit if you will forgive the pun. We have certainly gained some, but now that male genatalia are not a factor for mate selection the pressure on this seems to be waning.

    3. Re:You'd think at this point by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      There is a counter-force in our culture that leads women to marry at a later age, and it is a law of physics that DDDs can't remain in good shape very long, so it's not suprising that evolution has stopped in that direction. The same counter-force grants rich men with small penises excellent chances of finding a mate.

    4. Re:You'd think at this point by geekoid · · Score: 1

      well, women can have DDD breasts, as for men..we decided it was easier to use sitcoms to lower womens expectations of men

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  26. Natural selection gives way to human selection by JamJam · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's not just humans impacts on themselves. Humans have become 'superpredators' speeding up the evolution of the species they hunt and harvest at rates far above what is found in nature. Hunting techniques such as bagging the biggest trophy animal to commercial fisheries where mesh openings in nets capture the largest while allowing the smallest to escape has impacted the natural selection process. Removing the strongest and biggest species from the gene pool has resulted in offspring characteristics such as reduced body size and lower reproductive age.

    More info from this article

    1. Re:Natural selection gives way to human selection by khallow · · Score: 1

      Human selection is still natural selection. "Natural" here means something that can explained through physical, observed phenomena (like humans doing stuff).

  27. Not No More by KharmaWidow · · Score: 1, Troll

    Not since FDR, at least. Now we are filling the population with people with genetic illnesses - saving any person we can regardless how their eventual reproduction will just make us weaker as a species. Both physically and intellectually. In addition, government is now dictating diet regardless of what an individual needs/wants, and to accommodate for those with allergies or other health problems. Brave New World has transformed from a fictional warning to future generations to a 'how to" manual...

    1. Re:Not No More by Duradin · · Score: 1

      Dictating diet? Really? I'd have thought the Food Pyramid Police would have hauled me in by now.

    2. Re:Not No More by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Evidence shows you are wrong. That's a nice 1950s view you have there, but you might want to get caught up with the literature.

      Wow, you wrapped you ignorance of evolution around your ignorance of government.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:Not No More by KharmaWidow · · Score: 1

      Care to reply to anything I said specifically - with something specific? Maybe some data?

    4. Re:Not No More by KharmaWidow · · Score: 1

      Yes - dictating diet: outlawing trans-fats, banning peanuts, advocating (just this morning) that children do not eat anything brought from home, banning bake sales, banning smoking, Sin taxes on alcohol, proposed sin taxes on soda pop, the proposed ban on high fructose corn syrup ...

      Practically everything the FDA makes a ruling on controls our diet.

  28. Organisms can (de)activate genes during life!? by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

    Yes, yes they can. Plants in particular have crazily complex mechanisms for enabling/disabling genes (since that's pretty much the only way they can adapt to changing environments). But animals do it too.

    The enzyme that allows you to digest lactose is a protein, lactase. This protein is coded for by a particular sequence of DNA. Another sequence of DNA controls whether or not the first sequence is active and producing the enzyme it codes for.

    Traditionally the lactase gene is disabled after weaning. But then a mutation arose in the lactase-gene-controlling-gene, and for people with that mutation the gene stays activated.

    So the description quoted is pretty much accurate. No the gene doesn't directly dissolve lactose, it just produces the protein that does it, but it's the gene itself that is affected by the mutation that causes it to stay "switched on" into adulthood.

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  29. i had to change the sig by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    too depressing all the questions about the movie when i don't have time to finish it

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:i had to change the sig by spun · · Score: 1

      Ah, crap, that's too bad. :/

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
  30. please tell me by circletimessquare · · Score: 5, Insightful

    how the average lower middle class person is supposed to pay for healthcare in this country

    the conservative answer is "shut up and get busy dying"

    you don't have an answer beyond that, and it makes my blood boil. the cost of a sick society is much higher than the cost of a health care system which is attuned to taking care of people, rather than raping them for profit

    "the ultimate effect of a conservative ideology is a third world country: a rich upper class of a few, and a vast underclass of poor"

    The ultimate effect of a liberal ideology is a third world country: a rich elite ruling class of a few, and a vast underclass of dependents of the state.

    can you point to such a society for me please? this is a pleasant fiction to support your bankrupt thinking, as this country doesn't even exist

    meanwhile, i can point to many countries without a strong central government which naturally gravitate towards a rich upper class and the vast majority being poor. i don't understand why you cannot see that without strong functioning social nets this is the inevitable result of your ideology. how many examples of how many third world countries with weak central governments and no protections do you want? and yet this third world status quo is EXACTLY what you are arguing for. can you not see the obvious result of your ideology?

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:please tell me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the conservative answer is "shut up and get busy dying"

      Lying about your opponent's position only serves to weaken your own.

    2. Re:please tell me by Culture20 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "the ultimate effect of a conservative ideology is a third world country: a rich upper class of a few, and a vast underclass of poor"

      The ultimate effect of a liberal ideology is a third world country: a rich elite ruling class of a few, and a vast underclass of dependents of the state.

      can you point to such a society for me please? this is a pleasant fiction to support your bankrupt thinking, as this country doesn't even exist

      You are incorrect. While the largest such country ceased to exist 1991, there are a few that still exist, including North Korea and Cuba.

    3. Re:please tell me by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      how the average lower middle class person is supposed to pay for healthcare in this country

      The same way they pay for it now. Out of their salary.*

      *the tax structure is currently configured such that many pay for their healthcare out of salary items that they never actually see. Rest assured however that "employer paid" health care has a cost and that cost is factored into the total compensation you were offered.

      The 30 million people who don't have health insurance are not "lower middle class" although some of them might fall into that group. Others are "upper middle class" and still others are "rich" but none of those groups have insurmountable difficulty in obtaining health insurance. It's the "poor" who we're concerned about. And only specific groups of the poor, namely the ones that aren't so poor that they qualify for the already existing health-care safety-net, medicare. You won't be doing the "lower middle class" any favors by taking their health care out of their hands and making them pay for, in addition to their own health care, the health care of those who make less as well.

      Also, "third world" does not mean "poor." The other two "worlds" are western capitalism and western communism.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    4. Re:please tell me by geekoid · · Score: 1

      You mean those non liberal religious conservative based countries? well done.

      Care to name a liberal country that fits into your crappy belief? oh wait, there isn't one.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    5. Re:please tell me by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      can you point to such a society for me please? this is a pleasant fiction to support your bankrupt thinking, as this country doesn't even exist

      You are incorrect. While the largest such country ceased to exist 1991, there are a few that still exist, including North Korea and Cuba.

      You are mistaking 'communist' for 'liberal' or 'socialist'.

      Look at most of Europe*. Germany, a Social Democratic country, is doing quite well in the midst of this 'global catastrophe', and the average German isn't losing their livelihood, health insurance, or home. Scandinavia has been plugging along for almost a century now as states with cradle-to-grave socialism, in some of the most inhospitable climes with few resources, and people generally still get up and go to work every day.

      Greece is in deep shit, but if you cook the books, the system fails no matter what. Britain is having a tough time, but they went through the same conservative privitization scam with Thatcher that we went through with Reagan, and they are more or less in the same place we are.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    6. Re:please tell me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you think those three are "liberal", your problems run deeper than any mere slashdot post can address.

    7. Re:please tell me by denobug · · Score: 1

      how the average lower middle class person is supposed to pay for healthcare in this country

      the conservative answer is "shut up and get busy dying"

      As a conservative I don't agree with the current "conservative" leaders on the issue. We need to take a hard look at present health system and conduct a sweeping reforms to make healthcare affordable. I also do not like how the big business like the wireless power (utilities) companies, and airlines that take advantage of general public. I would wish they go back and re-regulate those industries.

      However, that does not mean I agree with the other liberal agenda. I don't agree on liberal's idea of passive forrest management which end up causing more major forest fires (yes it was a subject a professior made us to study in geography class, of all places. I wish I had forgot about it. Please find that reference yourself). I also think nuclear and natural gas are strategic in our energy policy and we need to utilize them to eventually migrate to more permenent renewable energy sources. Also I just don't like Nancy Pelosi and I am pro strong immagration policy (why bodering with citizenship when you have a porous border?). I also don't like the attitudes of some liberals who consider anyone who does not agree with them and does not have the skills to artulate their thoughts throughly are just stupid and are not worthy of dignity.

      So please, if you are willing to trade out Pelosi I would be happy to trade Limbough out for her. I have no use for him and his talk show anyway. I feel sorry for the people who are still listening to him. You can only take the same joke for so long.

    8. Re:please tell me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you're welcome to join us in Canada....

  31. Full of Ego by b4upoo · · Score: 1

    Fullness of ego can make scientists full of beans. The experts making this claim seem to suffer from the belief that humans are evolving. In fact a strong argument can be made that humans are in devolution. Like some bacteria humans tend to destroy their sustenance as they supposedly evolve. Yet when we are done destroying all that is around us we will pass just as that colony of bacteria does. When we stop having too many offspring,too much pollution, and endless wars, perhaps then we can consider humans as an advancing species. As it is we are essentially waging war in a larger and larger garbage and sewage dump.

    1. Re: Full of Ego by BradleyUffner · · Score: 1

      Evolution has no direction. It is just change to better suit an environment.

    2. Re: Full of Ego by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Evolution has no direction. It is just change to better suit an environment.

      It's not even that. It is just change, without any goal. Sometimes the change increases the probability of surviving. Those changes have an increased probability of surviving (yes, that's a tautology), and therefore they tend to survive (yes, still tautological). Therefore over time, organisms tend to get better at surviving. That's all folks.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    3. Re: Full of Ego by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      Evolution has no direction. It is just change to better suit an environment.

      It's not even that. It is just change, without any goal.

      What you describe is Mutation. I think GP was closer to the mark.

    4. Re: Full of Ego by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "In fact a strong argument can be made that humans are in devolution."

      That statement right there shows you ahveno idea what evolution is. There is no such the as 'de-evolving' only evolving.

      Just so you know:

      We feed more people, drive cleaner cars, have cleaner water, and sustain a large number of people. I call all the advancing.

      Hell, look at war over the last 200 years. It's not nearly as bad, hurts a lot less civilians, requires less people.

      We are very advanced.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    5. Re: Full of Ego by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      You've just cut away the part about selection. It still is without a goal. There is no goal. Not even the goal to survive. You might think there is, but there isn't. It's just that those who didn't survive didn't survive, and therefore those who are good at surviving remain.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    6. Re: Full of Ego by outlander · · Score: 1

      There is no such the as 'de-evolving' only evolving.

      Bingo - evolution = change, and, like (certain values of) time, it moves forward only - there is no back.

      Net-net, organisms which undergo mutations reflected in morphological changes which confer reproductive advantage will tend to increase in number.

      --
      "Truth is what works" -- William James "It works!!" -- o-dark-AM comment
  32. new American Scientist article about diet by peter303 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Primates evolved trichomatic eyes to find fruit better. Most mammals are dichromatic. Now humans eat more meat, cooked food, more starch from grains and more dairy from cattle. Each diet change affected the genes . One could argue the next stage- hyper nutrition and processed food- selecting against humans with metabolic disease like diabetes, obesity, and bad hearts. This was very interesting article.

  33. what about the effect of new media? by peter303 · · Score: 1

    How are books, movies, television, computer screens, phones, etc. affecting humans? Humans are becoming more nearsighted. The incidence of nearsightedness has increased from 25% in the mid-20th century to 40% now. There probably wasnt much of it in the pre-literate era.

    I wonder if we more actively evolve connecting communications and media directly to the brain and nervous system. Will we develop hive minds then like the Borg?

  34. Re:You're saying we've been breeding for accountan by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

    Those who survive the first bubble are those who are good in surviving bubbles. For those who are good in surviving bubbles, bubbles are an advantage because it eliminates the competition which is worse at surviving bubbles, but might be better otherwise. Therefore it is advantageous for those who survive bubbles to create more bubbles.
    SCNR

    --
    The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  35. opposing forces at work by r00t · · Score: 1

    yet our species has continued to improve technologically and the average IQ has continued to rise

    A rising tide lifts all boats.

    We're doing better because of health improvement. If not for that, IQ would be dropping by 1 to 2 points per year on an unchanging (not renormalized) scale.

    We can't keep up the health improvement forever. We took lead out of our paint and fuel, we got rid of starvation, we got rid of many childhood diseases, and... now what? There isn't much room to improve.

    Think how much better off we'd be without the idiocracy effect. Smart people mostly stopped having kids 50 years ago. Imagine a country of people with IQ 150, not counting renormalization.

    1. Re:opposing forces at work by c6gunner · · Score: 0, Redundant

      We're doing better because of health improvement. If not for that, IQ would be dropping by 1 to 2 points per year on an unchanging (not renormalized) scale.

      Citation?

      The originator of the Flynn Effect seems to disagree. I've found little credible evidence to suggest that health and nutrition are the primary cause of the IQ increase, and even less (ie. zero) to support the idea that IQ's would be decreasing in the absence of these improvements.

      We can't keep up the health improvement forever.

      Wanna bet?

      We took lead out of our paint and fuel, we got rid of starvation, we got rid of many childhood diseases, and... now what? There isn't much room to improve.

      Dunno about you, but I'm aiming for immortality and implantable computers with direct neural interfaces. I'm really sorry that your imagination is so stunted.

    2. Re:opposing forces at work by Toonol · · Score: 1

      We're doing better because of health improvement. If not for that, IQ would be dropping by 1 to 2 points per year on an unchanging (not renormalized) scale.

      ...you think.

    3. Re:opposing forces at work by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      We're doing better because of health improvement. If not for that, IQ would be dropping by 1 to 2 points per year on an unchanging (not renormalized) scale.

      Citation?

      I got your citation: dagnamnit kids can't read the dagnamit sign saying keep offa my lawn!

      (No I don't know that's his answer, but I would bet good money it's his own number based on how much dumber he estimates people younger than him are. This may or may not relate to his viewing of "Jersey Shore" after viewing "Idiocracy.")

    4. Re:opposing forces at work by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      You do realize that the citation you yourself provide discredits your own assertion?

      The Flynn effect has ended in most of western Europe and is slowing in other developing nations. It may be to soon to tell, but the empirical evidence shows that intelligence is slowly falling in some of those nations as well.

    5. Re:opposing forces at work by r00t · · Score: 1

      Nope, somebody did the estimate purely based on statistics.

      I doubt I can find the study, so I'm not going to waste time trying. You'd probably deny it anyway. At least a year has passed, and I don't know any magic keywords to sort through the pile of unrelated junk.

    6. Re:opposing forces at work by r00t · · Score: 1

      I do think. My generation still has that ability.

      Chances are slim I'd be able to find back the study that shows IQ will decline by that amount when in the absence of opposing forces.

      Never minding the specific numbers, anybody with a rudimentary understanding of evolution will expect IQ (w/o renormalization) to decline.

    7. Re:opposing forces at work by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      In England, the Flynn effect began to slow in the 80's. In the 90's IQ's had reached their peak. In the last decade, without adjustment, the real average IQ there has fallen by about 2%.

    8. Re:opposing forces at work by Phoenixlol · · Score: 1

      I desperately fear such a society! As one who's been very financially comfortable by coasting through life (so far; 24 years) on great comprehensive skills while doing the bare minimum (never study, never did homework), it's intimidating to envision a leveled playing field.

  36. Evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So let me get this straight... This paper says that evolution (the process of a population adapting to its environment through generations and selection) causes the population to adapt to their culturally defined environment?

    Call me shocked.

  37. real history has other factors too by r00t · · Score: 1

    First, forget the "thousands of years". Effective birth control started with the pill, about 50 years ago.

    Second, you're ignoring the general improvement in human health. (diet, lead removal, disease, etc.) In the short term, this will easily hide the genetic change.

    Once we can't make any more significant progress in general human health, you'll start to see the decline. It takes generations of course, so you'll just barely see it if you're young enough.

    1. Re:real history has other factors too by justin12345 · · Score: 1

      Effective herbal abortifacients have existed for a long time, we've had chemical "contraception" for millennia. The "Pill" is just a modern, less invasive form of chemical contraception. The change is one of culture, the technology involved is just icing. In the past contraception was often viewed as shameful whereas today thanks to the feminist movement it's usually viewed as simply prudent.

      --
      Cool art gallery, if you're into that sort of thing.
  38. seriously obsolete kid-only calculation by r00t · · Score: 1

    Intellectual ability tops out around age 14. By your calculation, somebody 28 years old normally gets an IQ near 50. Worse, somebody smarter than a 14 year old has an undefined IQ because such intelligence is not achevied by a normal person even at infinite age.

    The modern calculation is based in standard deviations from the mean. Unfortunately there is disagreement over the formula. Nearly all tests use 15 or 16 points per standard deviation, but Mensa's test uses 20 points per standard deviation.

  39. Tastier, more docile. by Culture20 · · Score: 1

    Agriculture and human culture have had profound effects on the natural selection of other species. To wit: the individuals "fittest" for survival near humans are usually the tastiest, most docile specimens, and they are the ones that get (are forced) to breed. How long until Soylent Green is on the menu? ;)

    1. Re:Tastier, more docile. by geekoid · · Score: 1

      We will be growing meat well before soylent green is an option.

       

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  40. Evolution never stops by gwait · · Score: 1

    Do any actual evolutionary scientists believe that humans stopped evolving at any point?

    HIV alone is a direct example - many people world wide have died from this, but a small handful of people have been found to be resistant to it.
    A classic (and sad) example of evolution at work.
    A similar thing happened to North & South America when Europeans showed up with dozens of new diseases, wiping out a large percentage of the native population. (See "Guns Germs & Steel - an excellent read)

    --
    Bavarian Purity Law of Rice Krispie Squares: Rice Krispies, Marshmallows, Butter, Vanilla.
  41. Evolution is not...or is that naught? by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 2

    Been awhile since I tried slogging through Natural Selection, but the impression I got was the choicest survivability attributes may be fleeting things. On top of that, the sexual selection attributes might even conflict with survivability. So, you could be the moose with the prettiest antlers that get all the girls/cows, but you'd get locked up in brush and starve to death. Same thing with humans. The hottest girl you've ever seen might be too dumb to tie her shoe laces. How's that help further the species, besides making you extremely pleased during your breeding years? So, just because we've evolved some attributes or culture doesn't say a damned thing about how good it is for humanity either right now or in the long run. Chance seems to play a very large part in the game.

    --
    I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
    1. Re:Evolution is not...or is that naught? by caffiend2049 · · Score: 1

      It just means that if you like bimbos, you would be wise to invest in velcro. Seriously, as our world becomes increasingly networked and interactive, one of the most important "skills" one can possess is the ability to get someone else who has knowledge to take care of our problems. Attractiveness goes a long way toward achieving this end. I'm pretty sure that at a meeting full of slashdotters, an attractive woman would have no problem finding someone to "tie her shoes."

      --
      Pandering to the lowest common denominator would be less frequent if more people were prime numbers.
    2. Re:Evolution is not...or is that naught? by adynata · · Score: 1

      Individual fitness doesn't help further the species, it helps further your genes. You may die an early, painful death - but if, beforehand, you impregnate twice the number of females than the average male moose does in their lifetime: your genes win. The idea of "for the benefit of the species" was once popular but is now known to be false. Co-operation and altruism between animals can *mostly* be traced to ultimately selfish motivations that benefit an individual's genes.

    3. Re:Evolution is not...or is that naught? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      However pretty the moose is, it's not going to have many children if it's dead. Also, contrary to popular belief, pretty but stupid girls don't get all the boys. Of course, they do get quite a lot of stupid boys which is where the two-joke, not deliberately ironic, Idiocracy comes in. Chance might seem to play a large part, however, if you look around you, you'll see that it doesn't.

  42. Re:The Bell Curve by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 1

    It's like nobody remembers The Bell Curve

    Proof that our IQ really is dropping?

    --
    I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
  43. We're evolving other species, too by andrewagill · · Score: 2

    Take the example of teosinte (originally Zea mays parviglumis), a grass that has since evolved from a very fit organism to a biological freak: its reproductive organs are encased in a husk and located in a place that makes reproduction less probable unless it's mediated by another organism with opposable thumbs. Why did it evolve this way? Because humans really liked to kill the plant and eat its embryos, and thus wanted to ensure the survival of the species.

    And while Zea mays parviglumis is still around, you're probably less likely to run into that plant than the more common mutant subspecies that humans evolved: corn.

  44. Wha..? by geekoid · · Score: 1

    " to have blunted the rate of human evolution, or even brought it to a halt, "

    What? any evolutionary biologist who said that in the last 20 years should have there credentials revoked.

    Technology and culture bring more options to the table.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  45. so whats new ? by BlindRobin · · Score: 1

    This has always been true, what is surprising is that it isn't obvious. Human 'culture' is as much a product of our evolution as our physical nature and the results are simply an extension of those changes. Thinking that culture is something 'other' than us or created by us is as silly as believing that conscience is something other than that which is supported by the physical context from which it arises.

  46. Prof. Dyson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can't believe no one mentioned Prof. Freeman Dyson yet!

    Many moons ago he wrote about how we should also include "external factors" which we inherit from a generation instead of only "internal factors" like DNA and such...

  47. Re:please tell me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    how this kind of shit keeps getting modded up. it has NO FUCKING RELEVANCE to the article being discussed.

    Save the political debate for the flamebait articles please.

  48. Well Duh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Of course culture affects evolution. Without going into the technical details which I am sure you all know, evolution is simply about death and birth. Culture has a huge affect on birth and death.

    Why is it that so many news stories about scientific studies leave me thinking "Shit I could have told you that years ago." It saddens me that these people get paid far more than me to laboriously prove the obvious.

  49. Already been pointed out...a lot... by sugarmatic · · Score: 1

    The core of this "news" item is already well-documented in canines. The development of the neural crest during fetal development and subsequent maturation is affected by not-so-subtle hormonal changes instigated by environmental changes from domestication during term. The neural crest affects the initiation, duration, completion, and other aspects of developmental processes. These include cartilage distribution and growth, gland development, and other aspects that definitively affect physical and behavior development. As we "domesticate" canines, they retain many characteristics that are exemplary of a wild puppy throughout their lives. As the domestication influence is removed, the neural crest changes revert and a normal wild adult will occur fully within two or four generations.

    Even more interesting is that this domestication shift creates a developmental relationship that is "sticky", or stable. Many of the behaviors exhibited by domesticated animals are shown to domesticate offspring as well even with drastic reductions in domestication inputs from humans.

    What this means is that the change towards domestication can occur rather rapidly, and the departure from domestication can be difficult at first but then very rapid after maternal behavioral inputs die off (hysteresis).

    Why wouldn't this happen in humans as well? It is complete speculation on my part, but the sudden appearance of agriculturation and the lack of significant examples of a flow back to hunter/gathering once agriculturizaton has occurred seems to have similar characteristics.

  50. absolutely correct by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    but does anyone who is not brain addled and propagandized believe universal healthcare is anything remotely like north korea or cuba? thus the lies and demagoguery simple common sense faces

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  51. 1950s Points Of View are Smarter, Apprently by KharmaWidow · · Score: 1

    We are sicker than ever and prevalence of all major illnesses are growing

    Here is just some scientific data:More premature babies surviving than ever. Over half of the premature babies that survived experienced serious health problems. A UK study of premature births, called EPICure, found children born very early often had learning difficulties as well as physical problems such as cerebral palsy, blindness or deafness. Researchers at the Oxford Centre for Health Economics estimate the cost of an average preterm baby is one and a half times more than a baby born full term. Professor Neil Marlow, who has been running the EPICure studies, said: "Even with better survival rates, the rate of morbidity, meaning problems that the babies have, is still very high.

    Data from 10 regional registries of birth defects show that the incidence of Down syndrome among U.S. children increased by 31 percent between 1979 and 2003, from 9.0 to 11.8 per 100,000 live births.

    Recent headlines from China are revealing a growing public health crisis: birth defects are up 40% since 2001

    According to the March of Dimes, one in 33 babies born in the US have a birth defect -- about twice as many as China.

    In the US, the total number of cancer cases has increased since cancer statistics have been kept. 12,769 deaths in 1900 (3% of total deaths), 158,335 cancer deaths on 1940 (11,3% of deaths), 553,768 in 2001 (23 of deaths)

    Alzheimer's: The annual number of incident cases is expected to more than double by the midpoint of the twenty-first century: from 377,000 (95% confidence interval = 159,000-595,000) in 1995 to 959,000 (95% confidence interval = 140,000-1,778,000) in 2050. The proportion of new onset casess who are age 85 or older will increase from 40% in 1995 to 62% in 2050 when the youngest of the baby boomers will attain that age

    Parkinson's disease is a growing national health problem. There are over 20 new cases diagnosed per 100,000 people annually ( Bernstein, 1995b). Most victims are over 40 years
    old, although this disease has a form that can strike teenagers. Incidence of PD increase with the increase of longevity.

    Multiple Sclerosis: M.S. affects 400,000 in the United States and 2 and half million people around the world. The overall prevalence estimate was 85/100,000 population, or approximately 211,000 (±20,000) persons. A 50% increase was observed in the number of women reporting MS for 1991 through 1994 vs 1982 through 1986. The observed trend in higher numbers of self-reported MS among women is consistent with recent observations of higher prevalence and incidence.

    Prevalence of Genetic Conditions / Birth Defects
    http://www.kumc.edu/gec/prof/prevalnc.html

    As for intellectually, American grades are lower than ever.

    Hoover Institution, Stanford University: "A science and math, American students trail those in other advanced democracies. The longer students are in school, the worse things get. Among fourth graders, U.S. students rank high on the International Test of Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS). Despite this head start, by eighth grade, American adolescents have slipped to the midpoint on the TIMSS; by age 17, their scores trail all but those in a few developing countries.

    The United States is living on its past. Among the oldest group in the study (those aged 56–65), U.S. prose skills rose to second place. For those attending school in the 1950s, SAT scores reached an all-time high.

    As the years go by, the United States slips down the list. Americans educated in the sixties captured a Bronze Medal in literacy, those schooled in the seventies got 5th place in the race. But those schooled in the nineties ranked 14th.

  52. Can education contribute to IQ ?????? by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 1

    Education can contribute to IQ

    Say what?

    Remember that judge who tried to sue a little laundry shop millions of dollars?

    Remember that professor who broke into his own home (by kicking the front door) and when the cops came to investigate he insulted the cop's mother?

    Both examples above are people who are highly educated.

    Where is your so-called "education contributed to IQ" bit ??

    IQ is IQ, education is education, stop mixing up the two !!!

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
  53. Here is the flaw in your argument... by gbutler69 · · Score: 1

    If you are paying for health insurance out of your salary and become too sick to work, where is your insurance? HINT: YOU'RE FUCKED! Make no mistake if this ever happens to you, your tune will change instantly. You just haven't thought it through nor do you recognize the tenuous nature of the current health-care (laughable) system.

    --
    Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
  54. Thanks. by gbutler69 · · Score: 1

    I don't think that you're the kind of "Conservative" that people rail against. I think you are a reasonable person and you and I would agree on many things and disagree on some.

    --
    Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
  55. copy cats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you think about it, the main means through which evolution occurs is through genetic inheritance. These genes that are being passed convey information (instincts,growth patterns,timing) to help ensure the survival of a species. It shouldn't be at all surprising that as the amount of information needed to survive increases, that this is no longer adequate (for humans). Instead, we have developed our own method of information transmission (language and culture) that is faster and further reaching than anything DNA could hope to accomplish. There are many "natural" structures that humans have mimicked with technology and logic.

  56. Hope they didn't spend money to "learn" that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Like, isn't culture/behavior one of the traits that drives selection? It would be in any other species. One could go so far as to suggest humans causing another species to become extinct is simply natural selection. If some really efficient animal hunted and killed off another species, it would then need to find other prey or die out itself.