Slashdot Mirror


Microsoft Employees Love Their iPhones

portscan writes "There is an entertaining and telling article in the Wall Street Journal about iPhone use by Microsoft employees. Apparently, despite it being frowned upon by senior management, iPhone use is rampant among the Redmond rank and file. The head of Microsoft's mobile division tried to explain it away as employees wanting 'to better understand the competition,' although few believe this. Nowhere does the article mention attempts by the company to understand why the iPhone is more attractive to much of Microsoft's tech-savvy workforce than the company's own products."

39 of 366 comments (clear)

  1. I loves and hateses my Preciousss by plover · · Score: 5, Funny

    I have a love/hate relationship with my iPhone. My preciousss. It's pretty and seductive, but it locks me out of stuff. For just about everything, there's an app for that, except for when Apple pulled it. It can do just about everything, but not when Apple or AT&T says it can't, like tethering. But for all it makes me crazy, I still can't seem to pause in the middle of the day without pulling it from its holster and stroking its sleek, responsive, beautiful face for a few minutes.

    Damn this stupid phone. I really should throw it back into the depths of Cupertino from whence it came, but you'd probably have to gnaw my hand off to get me to drop it.

    --
    John
    1. Re:I loves and hateses my Preciousss by nine-times · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yes, Apple supports tethering in the iPhone, but AT&T requires them to disallow you from using it. It was a similar deal with VoIP, which was blocked over 3G until recently. It raises the question in my mind: how much of the iPhone lock-down (only allowed to install apps from the iTunes store) is caused by Apple wanting a cut of everything, and how much is caused by contractual obligations to AT&T for preventing certain kinds of apps.

      Either way, obviously iPhones would be way better if Apple didn't restrict development and distribution of 3rd party apps.

    2. Re:I loves and hateses my Preciousss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I suspect a lot of that development has also been fueled by "get rich quick" dreams, which has obviously only come to reality for a small number of developers. Okay if you're a hobbyist, but not a great return on investment for anyone looking for more than that.

    3. Re:I loves and hateses my Preciousss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually, you're the product they're selling to AT&T. Or didn't you get the memo?

    4. Re:I loves and hateses my Preciousss by maxwell+demon · · Score: 5, Funny

      I don't use a lot of apps (or games) - but the ability to choose e.g. between several different weather-apps is very comforting.

      All of them are deficient: None lets you set the weather.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    5. Re:I loves and hateses my Preciousss by nxtw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The iPod Touch runs the same software with no restrictions.

      Correction: the iPod Touch runs the same software with the same restrictions

    6. Re:I loves and hateses my Preciousss by nine-times · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's one thing for them to provide a store/repository of known-good software. It's another to prevent you from going outside of that store if you choose to.

    7. Re:I loves and hateses my Preciousss by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Apple should have a right to keep their store the way they want, and reject any app the want.

      On the other hand, I should have a right to run any program I want on my hardware.

      --
      Qxe4
    8. Re:I loves and hateses my Preciousss by nine-times · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I have no problem with them offering the iTunes App store, and in fact think that the cut they take doesn't seem too high.

      But what if I want a native app for Google Voice? What if I want Google Voice to essentially replace my Voicemail and SMS buttons with a Google version that lets me use SMS for free? What if I want to use Opera on my iPhone? They're developing an application, but it will most likely be rejected. What if I want to alter my home screen? (e.g. Winterboard) Apple won't let me run those applications, even though they've been developed.

      And what of all the developers who won't bother to even write an application because they're dreading the possibility of being rejected and having all their work being useless?

      I like the iPhone and I like the iTunes store. I just think we'd see even more apps and better apps if Apple didn't keep such an iron fist over distribution.

    9. Re:I loves and hateses my Preciousss by Pootie+Tang · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Maybe I don't follow this well enough to know, but I don't think Apple is doing an audit, much less line-by-line. Seems to me they just react after the fact. From what I understand they recently pulled some apps related to wifi for using undocumented APIs. If they pulled it after they fact they didn't audit the source in the first place, not even using some automated tool on the binary.

      I don't have an iphone, just an ipod touch. But I don't get the impression they strictly control the app-store. They certainly impose their own restrictions, but I don't feel like it's for my benefit so I only get quality apps.

    10. Re:I loves and hateses my Preciousss by rainer_d · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Apple should have a right to keep their store the way they want, and reject any app the want.

      On the other hand, I should have a right to run any program I want on my hardware.

      I agree. But all the spam that I get and that we as an ISP have to fend-off or process is from the 99.9999% of morons in front of a PC that think exactly the same and download and install any crap-trojan that comes their way and poses as a screensaver or fake anti-virus.
      At least, we don't get spam from iPhones. That alone makes Apple's decision worth the hassle!

      --
      Windows 2000 - from the guys who brought us edlin
    11. Re:I loves and hateses my Preciousss by Eil · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The app store is a hobby programmer's greatest dream. Apple makes everything nice & easy for the hobby programmer,

      Completely agree. Nice and easy. Unless you:

      * don't have an extra $100/yr to spend on a membership fee
      * don't have a Mac
      * want to write apps that do a better job than Apple's built-in apps
      * want your apps to be able to run tasks in the background
      * want your apps to be able to download, save and play back locally-stored media
      * want to write apps that contain a plugin system or language interpreter
      * want to write free (as in speech) software

      But other than that, yeah, a hobby programmer's dream.

    12. Re:I loves and hateses my Preciousss by pcolaman · · Score: 3, Informative

      That was common with Verizon, but not so much anymore. My Droid does not have any features noticeably locked, and I'd easily argue that it's a much more open platform than the iPhone. Better? Debatable. But certainly more open.

    13. Re:I loves and hateses my Preciousss by rainer_d · · Score: 3, Interesting

      They do not, in any way, do a line-by-line audit. Anyone with even a slight understanding of malicious software will know many ways to sneak malware past Apple.

      According to this story:
      http://www.h-online.com/security/news/item/Researchers-show-infecting-smartphones-with-malware-is-relatively-easy-950091.html
      It's not so easy.
      Quote: "According to the researchers, only Apple's AppStore offers a certain amount of protection against malicious applications. Brown and Tijerina said that the AppStore rigorously checks the source code for potential security problems caused by buffer overflows, copyright infringements, and permitted protocols as well as APIs."

      So, yes, I'm sort-of an Apple-fanboi. But enough mistakes have been made with the Windows-platform. We don't need a deja-vu on any mobile platform.

      --
      Windows 2000 - from the guys who brought us edlin
    14. Re:I loves and hateses my Preciousss by nine-times · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes, because they should have gone with the good US cell carrier. Man, that carrier does a great job. They haven't ever tried to hobble the phones that they offer, haven't tried to impede VoIP use on their data network, and haven't tried to keep users from tethering their laptop to their phones. You know, the US carrier that provides great coverage, fast data speeds, and good service at cheap prices without any restrictions on how you use their service...?

      Which carrier is that, again?

    15. Re:I loves and hateses my Preciousss by ZorbaTHut · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have trouble imagining how that is possible considering that you don't submit your source code to the App Store.

      --
      Breaking Into the Industry - A development log about starting a game studio.
    16. Re:I loves and hateses my Preciousss by dakameleon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There's definitely an AT&T bias - many overseas mobile networks are quite happy to remove those restrictions as soon as Apple-AT&T agree to do so. For example, in Australia the iPhone was sold unlocked from day 1 (since the 3G came on the market), and 3 out of 4 major networks that carry it allow tethering with no extra charge. The one hold-out charges a nominal fee to enable it. Similar things apply in the UK & Europe, but the primary source of restrictions is still driven by Apple's home market (something I would hope would change with increasing international popularity).

      --
      Man who leaps off cliff jumps to conclusion.
    17. Re:I loves and hateses my Preciousss by ppanon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      rigorously checks the source code for potential security problems caused by buffer overflows, copyright infringements, and permitted protocols as well as APIs."

      I have trouble imagining how that is possible considering that you don't submit your source code to the App Store.

      Without the source code, copyright infringement is probably the most difficult to detect, but they may be specifically talking about copyrighted music or some other audiovisual media clip used in an app without authorization of the author/composer/producer, not copyrighted code. on the other hand, use of non-permitted protocols and APIs could be pretty easily tested for with binaries only (any API calls will need linker/loader info in the executable, and you can run the app in a sandbox to see what it tries to do). As for buffer overflows, while it won't be as efficient as with source, they do have a number of avenues:
      a) running through a decompiler before running through a code checker,
      b) automated testing apps for testing any/all input widgets
      c) see if any input APIs for telecommunications such as bluetooth/IP have load/link references, trace how those are used (ie. what ports are listened to), and then hammer them with automated testing.

      A lot of the above could be automated. Sure, it won't be close to foolproof or anywhere as effective as a proper code review but it's better than what NewEgg or any other PC software distributor does for you. If somebody put out a really crappy piece of software full of holes, it will flag it (and probably also let Apple know to scrutinize apps from that developer more closely).

      --
      Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
  2. Same thing with iPods by Miandrital · · Score: 4, Informative

    I remember this same story came out about how a growing number of MS employees were using ipods, and apparently it was frowned upon, so they started switching the white headphones for regular ones. Link: http://www.wired.com/gadgets/mac/commentary/cultofmac/2005/02/66460

  3. Victory against monoculture by HumanEmulator · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I wonder how many Apple employees use Microsoft Office. Or Microsoft employees search with Google. Why are people so intent on declaring one product the winner that everybody should use? Did it benefit Microsoft to switch Hotmail to MS IIS before IIS was ready to handle a site of that scale? This isn't a failure for Microsoft's phone efforts as much as it is a victory against Microsoft's mono-culture mindset.

    1. Re:Victory against monoculture by RyuuzakiTetsuya · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Eating their own dog food.

      Apple employees probably use Pages, Keynote and the rest of the iWork suite because they're quite good pieces of software. Microsoft probably doesn't have a raft of people who are using Open Office or Pages because well, even for Mac, Office v.x is pretty slick. Microsoft employees also probably are Xbox fans, by and large.

      Mono-culture is one thing, being able to swallow your own dog food is another. Monocultures work when the products you sell are actually good. :) When you have to ENFORCE your monoculture, you're clearly doing something wrong in the market.

      --
      Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
    2. Re:Victory against monoculture by bondsbw · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Good user experience has nothing to do with UI. In other words, it doesn't matter where you put the buttons... it matters that the user can figure out how to do what they want to do.

      Microsoft figured this out, sort of, by creating a completely new UI for Office 2007. Google figured out a long time ago that most users would rather have a box and a button than a page full of stuff. Apple did very well with the iPhone... albeit, the phone part is actually a little harder than most, but the rest of the device is dirt simple to use.

      My point... I don't think users care about familiarity as much as software designers think they do.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    3. Re:Victory against monoculture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Eating your own dog food is good and valid for the mobile division, but the rest of MS really has nothing to do with the phone wars, so it would be ridiculous to pressure them into using it.

      Anyway, I bet the brass are just glad they're using iPhones, not N900s.

    4. Re:Victory against monoculture by RogerWilco · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Very well said.

      There is nothing familiar about the iPhone interface, but it's a raging success.

      Why, because it has a good usability design. Especially, it get's rid of the desktop metaphore and uses the appliance metaphore instead, where the device is only one thing at a time, but tries to have the entire user interface be that appliance. When you think about it, it's a very strong and natural interface, and solves a lot of problems people have in current day-to-day use of not just computers, but all kinds of devices.

      Most people get lost in devices like VCRs, stereos, TVs and computers because without training it's hard to figure out that a button does different things depending on what other buttons you have pushed before it. The iPhone UI tries to solve this problem by replacing the buttons.

      --
      RogerWilco the Adventurous Janitor
  4. Nice contradiction... by matt4077 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    So Microsoft says they believe it helps them to understand the competition, but the submitter simply says "nobody believes this" and then faults microsoft for not "trying to understand the competition"? Did people actually stop reading their own submissions?

  5. Do they get the Microsoft products for free? by Rocky · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If they do, then there's a real issue there.

    If not, it's the employees money to do with what they please. Upper management needs to STFU.

    --
    "I'm an old-fashioned type of guy. I worship the Sun and Moon as gods. And fear them."
    1. Re:Do they get the Microsoft products for free? by McBeer · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Do they get the Microsoft products for free? If they do, then there's a real issue there.

      If not, it's the employees money to do with what they please. Upper management needs to STFU.

      MS employees don't get anything free. They get steep discounts on MS software (85% or so off), but only a small discount on on hardware. I have, on occasion, seen xboxes for sale commercially for less then in the employee store. I did a year long contract for MS in the mobile division and I never heard of upper management discouraging iPhone use. The FTEs on my team used a wide range of mobile devices and I think it really helped to broaden people's horizons. I think management understood that. That said, MS is a very large creature and I saw only a little corner of it.

      --
      Hikery.net - The best hiking site ever. Made by yours truly.
    2. Re:Do they get the Microsoft products for free? by hey! · · Score: 3, Funny

      You must have had an interesting relationship.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  6. Obsessesion by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The Apple culture is about obsession. This goes from creation to use. Despite any flaws the iPhone it has, it feels likes someone actually thought how non-engineers would use it. This is an important factor IMHO, because even with the 'wow' factor, a device will only work if people can find it usable. Too many gadgets, IMHO, are designed by engineers and almost feel like the primary user was an engineer. To many people the "it just works" element is as important as any of the features that the device it may include.

    There are other companies who have understood the people factor, but all to often it doesn't feel like it is running through the veins of the companies.

    Looking at Microsoft, I feel that they are confused about what it means be user friendly. There are elements of the company who seem to get it, while there are other parts that thinks bells and whistles are what user friendly is about. For me being user friendly is something a little complex, it is that right balance of simplicity and richness of functionality. Hiding features or dumbing down an application is not going to magically solve the problem, if the humans factor is forgotten in the process.

    The irony in all this is that Apple spends less on R&D than Microsoft, yet whether it is through focused R&D or some other factor I feel they seem to capture the magic combination better. Maybe there is something to be said of having a company run by a guy who is so obsessive that his passion captivates people, rather than alienating them - yes, I am insinuating that Balmer's passion at developer conferences is more an after thought than something that drives the company in a cohesive way.

    --
    Jumpstart the tartan drive.
  7. Re:Windows Mobile 7 is not yet out. by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Windows Mobile 7 is going to have to be really good to make up for the crap I dealt with on my last Windows based phone. Sure it looks like they've improved the god awful interface but if it's just as buggy and still under performs like my Orange SPV M3100 did then it won't have a chance imo.

    We'll see how well they do but until people start using it on a day-to-day basis and feedback positively I'm not going to take anyone's opinion on it seriously.

    I'm still not entirely sold on the interface. It is much slicker and isn't trying to replicate Windows on a phone but why can't they just make something that fits the screen rather than making it almost certain I'll have to scroll left and right to find everything and what is the point of making a heading to a section, like People, so big that it's guaranteed not to fit on the screen ever? Again, it looks nice but I can see that getting annoying over time and it reeks of being a lazy solution to making things look nice on various screen resolutions.

  8. Believe it or not, Microsoft is a pretty tolerant by melted · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Believe it or not, Microsoft is a pretty tolerant company on the inside. You're not required to drink the kool-aid, and using non-Microosft products and services is not frowned upon. Almost everyone (at least in Redmond) uses Google for search, for instance. A lot of smartphone users use iPhone. Some use Android even (even though corp discounts obviously don't apply to either iPhone or Android plans or phones). It is not uncommon to see a Mac running Mac OS X, even though the corp network doesn't really support it. I haven't seen any Linux use on laptops, but that's probably because ACPI support in Linux sucks ass.

    There are folks who proudly drink the Kool-Aid, and refuse to use anything non-Microsoft, of course, but they're in minority.

    Having worked elsewhere after Microsoft, I've gained a lot of respect for this aspect of Microsoft corporate culture that I had taken for granted. I think at least someone at Microsoft understands that Microsoft has a lot to learn from the rest of the world, and corporate inbreeding is its worst possible enemy.

  9. Re:Believe it or not, Microsoft is a pretty tolera by melted · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I contend that for your average ACPI non-expert (99.999% of the population), it seems to be the other way around. I don't care who's wrong, I just want to my laptop to fucking wake up when I open the lid, like it does in Mac OS X and Windows.

  10. Microsoft's Own Products? by Tokerat · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Nowhere does the article mention attempts by the company to understand why the iPhone is more attractive to much of Microsoft's tech-savvy workforce than the company's own products.

    Most likely, that's because Microsoft doesn't make a phone.

    --
    CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
  11. Re:Believe it or not, Microsoft is a pretty tolera by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Right. In which case you then go speak to the hardware manufacturers and request they write proper Linux drivers for ACPI, or publish their hardware specs properly so the kernel developers can write the drivers.

    Countless people went and done that, and what good did it do?

    The real solution to his problem - the one that, you know, actually solves his problem, here and now - is the one that he gave himself: use a laptop with OS that can do it with the hardware that exists today. Not chasing unicorns.

    By the same logic, it would be perfectly okay for me to call my kid an idiot for not knowing what year the Battle Of Hastings was, even though he's never done anything about it in his history class!

    Well, if every single one of his classmates somehow knew that regardless...

  12. The google route. by mjwx · · Score: 4, Informative

    I'm glad that Apple strictly controls what goes into the App-store, because I have no time at all to do a line-by-line source-code audit of every god-damn silly app I download.

    Why should they even need to?

    I cant fathom why you would think that such a thing is logically a good thing to do.

    The problem Apple has is not that it restricts the app store, that is fine as it is Apple's app store. The problem is that Apple restricts the iphone to the app store and the app store only.

    Google's way around this was to add an option into Android that permitted the installation of programs from anonymous sources and leave this option disabled by default. Therefore if you liked the kind of walled garden security that application restriction provides then you can have it, but if you wanted freedom it was three clicks away. But this kind of approach requires device level security, which the iphone has little to none of.

    --
    Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    1. Re:The google route. by Skreems · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's not a completely fair comparison... Google doesn't do nearly the level of auditing on the stuff in their app store that Apple does with theirs. All Google really requires is that you buy a $30 certificate which lets phones verify that a given app is published by the person who claims to have published it.

      Not that I'm a fan of Apple by any means. I wouldn't switch from my Hero to an iPhone if you paid me. But it's not the same type of walled garden, although it may feel like it superficially.

      --
      Slashdot needs a "-1, Wrong" moderation option.
      The Urban Hippie
  13. Re:Jailbreaking fixes many of the iPhone's limitat by RogerWilco · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The reason Apple fights jailbreaking is simple: They have realized that their most important asset is their brand, and they will do anything to protect it.

    Why does this relate to jailbreaking? Well, remember when all those jailbroken iPhones got rickrolled a few months ago? If you read the media coverage, in most cases the detail got lost that it only concerned jailbroken phones with a badly configured sshd on them. It made Apple look bad because iPhones could be rickrolled. That's the kind of news Apple is fighting, and until you can make certain that those kinds of things do not happen on jailbroken iPhones, Apple will keep fighting it out of fear of bad publicity.

    --
    RogerWilco the Adventurous Janitor
  14. Re:Believe it or not, Microsoft is a pretty tolera by Your.Master · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No, it's like calling your kid an idiot if, when asked to research the year of the Battle of Hastings, he writes a letter to the publisher of his favourite history textbook demanding that they email to all customers an errata footnote on the year that the battle of hastings occurred. When there's another free (as in beer -- Microsoft employees can install Windows on their work machines for free, obviously, and this is where the analogy came from) history textbook sitting right beside that has it listed and indexed already. Because he doesn't like the other history textbook.

    It's not Linux's fault, per se, but it is Linux's problem. The difference between "Linux doesn't have good ACPI support" and "ACPI hardware doesn't have good Linux support" is pedantic and ultimately irrelevant to anybody not in a position to fix it themselves.

  15. Linux ACPI support... no thanks to Microsoft. by dclozier · · Score: 4, Informative

    From: Bill Gates
    Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 8:41 AM
    To: Jeff Westorinon; Ben Fathi
    Cc: Carl Stork; Nathan Myhrvold; Eric Rudder
    Subject: ACPI extensions

    One thing I find myself wondering about is whether we shouldn't try and make the "ACPI" extensions somehow Windows specific.

    It seems unfortunate if we do this work and get our partners to do the work and the result is that Linux works great without having to do the work.

    Maybe there is no way to avoid this problem but it does bother me.

    Maybe we could define the APIs so that they work well with NT and not the others even if they are open.

    Or maybe we could patent something related to this.

    Linux ACPI support would probably be even better than it is now were it not for Microsoft.
    http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=2010011422570951