Slashdot Mirror


Energy Star Program Certifies 15 Out of 20 Bogus Products

longacre writes "A Gasoline-Powered Alarm Clock was among 15 bogus products granted the coveted Energy Star seal of approval by the US Environmental Protection Agency during a secret evaluation conducted by the Government Accountability Office. In addition, four fictional manufacturers run by fake people and marketed with crummy websites — Cool Rapport (HVAC equipment), Futurizon Solar Innovations (lighting), Spartan Digital Electronics, and Tropical Thunder Appliances — were granted Energy Star partnerships. The root of the problem: Manufacturers need only submit photos and not actual examples of their products, and they submit their own efficiency ratings, which are not independently verified by the EPA."

275 comments

  1. Like patents by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The sheer volume of applicants makes it infeasible for a single bureaucracy to effectively test physical hardware.

    1. Re:Like patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      God damn, BadAnalogyGuy. You deserve to no longer be at -1 if you keep your posts up like this one. That really was a good analogy.

    2. Re:Like patents by santax · · Score: 4, Funny

      Neh that's totally different. I'm pretty sure there are no bogus patents.

    3. Re:Like patents by NewbieProgrammerMan · · Score: 3, Funny

      You'd think that they wouldn't default to giving away their (supposedly) valuable seal of approval, though. Most bureaucracies I've dealt with personally just ignored you if too many applications meant they would have to stay past 4pm.

      Anyway, way to go GAO. It sounds like somebody in there has a fun job-- "Johnson, I need you to create some idiotic-sounding products and set up fake companies to go with them."

      --
      [b.belong('us') for b in bases if b.owner() == 'you']
    4. Re:Like patents by poetmatt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      who said the bureacracy tests hardware? certification labs are supposed to do the testing. it sounds like they aren't.

    5. Re:Like patents by MrMista_B · · Score: 1

      They need... two! Two beurocrazies!

      *evil laugh*

    6. Re:Like patents by mysidia · · Score: 1

      There's a simple solution to this.... the applicants pay a lot to get the certification already. Use some of that money to hire more people to actually inspect the production line, pull hardware, and test.

    7. Re:Like patents by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      The sheer volume of applicants makes it infeasible for a single bureaucracy to effectively test physical hardware.

      True, but it does not stop them from establishing independent testing guidelines, and allowing bidding from companies who can perform the certification (and who are accountable when something receives certification incorrectly.)

    8. Re:Like patents by petermgreen · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well the article claims that they just accept the manufacturers test data. It's fine for a certification agency to accept testing from trusted labs but they should still be both inspecting/testing those labs procedures AND verifying that results really come from the lab they claim to come from. If they don't it renders the agencies badges far less trustworthy.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    9. Re:Like patents by Runaway1956 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "You'd think that they wouldn't default to giving away their (supposedly) valuable seal of approval, though."

      Actually, I can't think of a single seal of approval, or certification, that means anything. The longer the "standard" has been around, the worse it is. It's all nonsense, IMHO. Reading reviews that real customers have written has proved more effective than looking for some certification which no one understands, and was likely paid for with cash money anyway.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    10. Re:Like patents by dbIII · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The only problem is that they pretend to do so.

    11. Re:Like patents by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I suspect one of three things(or conceivably some combination):

      Regulatory capture: Regulatory entities frequently(out of a mixture of lobbying and the human social processes that come with working together), frequently start to identify with the entities they regulate. It's like Stockholm Syndrome for bureaucracies. Either because you fear the lobbying clout of people upset with your decisions, or because you really don't want to be "not a team player", you start getting really softball regulation.

      Bad incentive structure: Defining good metrics for productivity is hard. Defining bad ones is easy. It would be totally believable that, either by design or in practice, the guy who approves 10 products in a day gets more brownie points than the guy who denies 10, or carefully researches 5.

      Intentional brokenness: A common(and quite sensible) defensive mechanism used by entities or industries that fear they will face conditions harmful to their interests(either regulation, consumer backlash, or both) is to pre-emptively "show their cooperation" by collaborating with their friends in legislature, or in "objective 3rd party" organizations produced for the purpose, to establish carefully broken softball standards that strongly resemble whatever reform they feared; but have little or none of the punch.

    12. Re:Like patents by iroll · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Bullshit. If the EPA can't

      • afford

      to test them all, then the EPA should accredit private labs to do the testing and the manufacturer should pay the labs to produce certified results that meet EPA requirements.

      The accreditation doesn't even have to cost the taxpayer anything, because the EPA can charge the labs for it.

      --
      Repetition does not transform a lie into the truth. - FDR
    13. Re:Like patents by iroll · · Score: 1

      Sigh... looks like I need to l2preview =(

      --
      Repetition does not transform a lie into the truth. - FDR
    14. Re:Like patents by WhatAmIDoingHere · · Score: 1

      The FCC manages. Hell, they manage to test and leak pictures of upcoming sweet ass phones.

      --
      Not a Twitter sockpuppet... but I wish I was.
    15. Re:Like patents by toastar · · Score: 1

      The sheer volume of applicants makes it infeasible for a single bureaucracy to effectively test physical hardware.

      Why?

      Somebody has to do the testing, What does it matter who pays their pay check?

      If the Testing firm had to be a regulated by the EPA perhaps we wouldn't have to pay for all of it.

    16. Re:Like patents by Hadlock · · Score: 2, Informative

      It was only two months ago the THX certification lost all meaning due to lack of testing.

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    17. Re:Like patents by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      Simple solution: You set the stakes higher, until you can process them, and thereby become more exclusive. Let them do the work, if they want a certification. In way that makes it very easy and quick for you to verify it. (But don’t use money as a blocker, as that harms small companies who are great but can’t afford it yet.)

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    18. Re:Like patents by dynamo52 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The sheer volume of applicants makes it infeasible for a single bureaucracy to effectively test physical hardware.

      No, the problem is that this was a program written by industry lobbyists. It is completely voluntary and the test results are self reported.

      From TFA:

      In the instance of a bogus dehumidifier granted certification (an appliance also billed as 20 percent more efficient than the category leader), the EPA did request an e-mail confirmation on the bogus test data. To get the Energy Star stamp, the GAO spies simply had to stick to the story.

      On the plus side though,this was discovered by the GAO making it an excellent example of what well reasoned regulation and oversight can accomplish. Now if we can get a few Republicans to vote for the new Consumer Protection Agency that Obama wants in the Financial Regulation Reform bill we would start to see more of these abuses brought to light.

      --
      Like this comment? I accept Bitcoin! - 153sc8UUBXyp12ofQqfAWDmJrzyiKCYC1x
    19. Re:Like patents by 517714 · · Score: 1

      Which is one of the reasons for UL, FM, and other "independent" laboratories to exist. The government can do some random sampling of their tests, and have some confidence that the others were conducted in a similar manner.

      --
      The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
    20. Re:Like patents by thogard · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I've been trying to figure out how they came up with the CFL saves 80% nonsense. The best bulb I've found was 64% when it was new and I have some that are past their useful life and are less efficient than incandescent bulbs. I'm not even sure how to measure the lumens from a non-point source like a spiral CFL in an accurate way. It appears that most of the bulbs that have useful ratings use the point that is the brightest and then use that light level to guess at the total lumens which will overstate the total light output. I've been thinking a better way to compare modern lights would be to look at a number more like EIRP used in radios.

    21. Re:Like patents by sumdumass · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, I can't think of a single seal of approval, or certification, that means anything.

      I'll expand your mind then. Try the UL and the NFPA seals and listings.

      Of course if something is not up to spec (lets say a manufacturer certified with one material and used another in production), then most people have a right to sue the manufacturers for not following the standards they were certified under as well as it being known that the problem wasn't the certification but the production afterward.

    22. Re:Like patents by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Not really. That's more like points 1, 2 and 3.

      With a sprinkle of voodoo economics and just plain ordinary stupidity.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    23. Re:Like patents by Idarubicin · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, I can't think of a single seal of approval, or certification, that means anything.

      Underwriters Laboratories.

      --
      ~Idarubicin
    24. Re:Like patents by trapnest · · Score: 1

      Why is this at -1?

    25. Re:Like patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am sure that the insurance companies and ambulance chasers would be more than happy to sue the UL if any of the products having their stickers were to cause fires or deaths. Their certification is to let manufacturers get off the hook for liabilities.

    26. Re:Like patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is true...
      But its also true with the US tax system.
      Solution: audit
      Take random sampling and test them. If they don't meet the specs the manufacturer claimed for energy star compliance then punish them severely. Furthermore let consumers report suspected false energy star claims on products and if its statistically relevant..bump them onto the audit list.

      If the 'punishments' for noncompliance are severe enough then falsifying specs wont be worth it.

    27. Re:Like patents by itsthebin · · Score: 1

      Actually, I can't think of a single seal of approval, or certification, that means anything

      IEC Ex , ANZ Ex , Aus Ex all have traceable certificates to laboratory tests - all certs will be on the respective websites.

      --
      ...I obey the laws of physics....
    28. Re:Like patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because I got mass down modded by some idiots and have terrible karma now. I can also only post 2 times in 24 hours on this account too.

    29. Re:Like patents by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      The sheer volume of applicants makes it infeasible for a single bureaucracy to effectively test physical hardware.

      Two fixes:

      1. At least do random sampling

      2. Charge a fee sufficient enough to cover the cost of testing. Thus, if there are gajillion candidate products, then there are also gajillion fee instances coming in to pay for more inspections.
         

    30. Re:Like patents by digitalunity · · Score: 1

      Wrong. The mechanism for a solution is already in place.

      We already have a very concrete, existing voluntary product safety certification system in place. OSHA is an accrediting organization for the Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory.

      The solution is a relatively simple one. Require energy star ratings be given by the already existing certification agencies such as UL, CSA, Metlab, SGS, et. al.

      To comply with the requirements of their accreditation through OSHA, the companies are required to submit their products to testing agencies and the products are thoroughly tested for compliance to existing standards. Energy efficiency could easily become an optional part of that product certification testing. The FCC did that and it's been working out pretty good so far.

      This removes a large burden from the EPA and puts responsibility for issuing Energy Star certifications on companies who have already proven their ability to test products responsibly.

      --
      You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
    31. Re:Like patents by digitalunity · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Not sure, but sumdumass is entirely correct.

      OSHA runs the rigidly enforced Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory program for product safety certification program, including companies such as UL, ETL and CSA who routinely test products for compliance with UL, CSA, NFPA and FCC testing. For an additional fee, I'm sure these companies would be happy to provide energy efficiency ratings as well.

      As a part of the certification program for most companies, manufacturers receive regular inspections to continue using the UL, ETL and CSA certification marks to verify that the products that they make continue to comply with the requirements originally used to establish conformity to nationally recognized product safety standards.

      Once a certification is established, manufacturers cannot modify their product designs in ways that affect the safety of the product without a recertification review.

      --
      You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
    32. Re:Like patents by ToNoTo13 · · Score: 1

      So true, just take a look at your mechanics ASE cert test some time. You'd be surprised by the "correct" answers on those tests; such as covering engine bolts in oil if your having trouble screwing them into the engine block.

    33. Re:Like patents by digitalunity · · Score: 1

      I thought you were supposed to chase the threads with a tap or soft wire brush first, then inspect the bolt and hole threads for damage, then use oil if those fail.

      --
      You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
    34. Re:Like patents by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      Like healthcare now. What government lacks in quality it can always make up for in volume.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    35. Re:Like patents by slinches · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually, I can't think of a single seal of approval, or certification, that means anything.

      How about FAA certification? There's extensive testing and verification required for commercial aircraft to be in compliance with the FAA regulations

      --
      Knowledge Brings Fear
    36. Re:Like patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IE is slow.

    37. Re:Like patents by Phics · · Score: 1

      The sheer volume of applicants makes it infeasible for a single bureaucracy to effectively test physical hardware.

      Laziness comes to mind. The EPA/DOE's official response to this was pretty pathetic. From the response:

      One of the reasons the system has worked during the first 18 years of the program is that manufacturers have a market incentive to test competitors' products and report violations, which supports the program's own independent testing, verification and enforcement initiatives.

      It's not infeasible for a single person to run a program like this, when you consider that they pretty much leave it up to the manufacturers to decide who is lying about their EnergyStar logo and who is not.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world; those who believe there are two types of people, and those who don't.
    38. Re:Like patents by michaelhood · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "You'd think that they wouldn't default to giving away their (supposedly) valuable seal of approval, though."

      Actually, I can't think of a single seal of approval, or certification, that means anything. The longer the "standard" has been around, the worse it is. It's all nonsense, IMHO. Reading reviews that real customers have written has proved more effective than looking for some certification which no one understands, and was likely paid for with cash money anyway.

      Except that there is a difference between private certifications and Energy Star because our tax dollars subsidize the purchases of Energy Star qualified products.

    39. Re:Like patents by Cornwallis · · Score: 1

      The sheer volume of applicants makes it infeasible for a single bureaucracy to effectively test physical hardware.

      Really. And yet Consumer's Union does it regularly.

    40. Re:Like patents by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      Why is lubrication of a stiff bolt a surprise? I am not a mechanic but I have been tinkering with cars as an amateur for years and that is the first things I would try if the threads on the bold and block appeared otherwise ok.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    41. Re:Like patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      UL isn't so holy. I work for a large chemical company, specifically in the coatings industry. Our 'UL Approval Process' is quarterly and consists of:
      1) Is the pail manufacturer UL approved?
      2) Is the company that makes the label for the pail UL approved?
      3) Is the company (our client) selling this product UL approved?

      If those three things exist they take our check for $1,600 and go on their merry way. There is absolutely no testing of the product we put in the bucket.

    42. Re:Like patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NFPA? I'm a Firefighter, you insensitive clod!

    43. Re:Like patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's because the testing has already been done upstream - there's (in theory at least) no need to test the same thing twice.

    44. Re:Like patents by poetmatt · · Score: 1

      I agree. However, many cert agencies do not do their due diligence. Most cert agencies won't accept results at all unless it's from a known and accepted lab. So this sounds like a known lab is cutting corners and charging less than their competitors, resulting in BS claims coming around. Or I'm sure there are other methods. However, lots of less trustworthy cert agencies are known to accept claims/test reports from any company as long as it just has a stamp of "yes, this company did the testing". When I say lots, I mean that there are more of this type than there are of the kind that verify everything, irrespective of legal risks that come out of doing so.

      Additionally energy star is a relatively new area of business for a lot of companies. It's only been around for less than 20 years. 10 years from now it might clean up due to competitive pressure. However, remember that certifications are typically ongoing for a product/company, so 10 years from now for something a certification that might be relevant for 50+ years would not be unsurprising.

    45. Re:Like patents by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      Unlike those who thought it was obvious to oil stubborn bolt, I thought it was prohibited.

      Clean the bolt threads, chase the threads in the bolt hold, if the bolt still won't go in, get a new bolt. If the new bolt is stubborn about going into the bolt hole, use some TEFLON TAPE or ANTISIEZE to lubricate the bolt. Oil on a bolt will eventually oxidize, corrode the bolt and the bolthole, ensuring that the bolt WILL NOT come out the next time.

      I never oil a bolt. Never, never, never!!

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
  2. So, its a marketing label only by bfmorgan · · Score: 3, Informative

    I have long thought that some of the devices with the energy star label were not that energy saving. Now I know.

    --
    I hope this caused some synapses to fire.
    1. Re:So, its a marketing label only by Penguinisto · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Pretty much. I for one cannot wait to see what they do with Carbon caps and labels for that one...

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    2. Re:So, its a marketing label only by mysidia · · Score: 5, Funny

      Ah, but they are energy efficient.............. compared to a short circuit, or a 100 ohm resistor in parallel with the device.

    3. Re:So, its a marketing label only by Black+Gold+Alchemist · · Score: 3, Funny

      Especially because it amounts to turning down the radio in a hummer to save gas.

      --
      Responsibility is an addiction
      Virtue is a temptation
      Community is a cartel
    4. Re:So, its a marketing label only by Ant+P. · · Score: 2, Informative

      IIRC there was a front page story a long time ago about this; it was about some HDTVs that got this label which used obscene amounts of power even when they were turned "off".

    5. Re:So, its a marketing label only by bunratty · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That's why many people are calling for a simple carbon tax. We already tax gasoline. Just also tax coal and natural gas to encourage efficient use of fossil fuels or use of non-fossil fuels. Of course, we should also tax goods from countries based on the carbon intensity of their industry so we don't simply shift fossil fuel use to other countries.

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    6. Re:So, its a marketing label only by petermgreen · · Score: 3, Informative

      That one was more a methodology issue than a fraud issue. Energy star only set standards for when the TV was in regular standby and when it was running, not for when it was "in standby but trying to update the EPG and so the tuner is on". Furthermore it turned out that some TVs could spend a LOT of time in this state.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    7. Re:So, its a marketing label only by Un+pobre+guey · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That is a political non-starter. Cap and trade will come because it creates a vast new speculative market. Look forward to iterative securitization, credit default swaps and other wacky derivatives, market cornering, toxic assets, etc. etc. etc.

      The people who will make the money in that market will be both the driving force and the authors of the legislation.

    8. Re:So, its a marketing label only by Sir_Lewk · · Score: 4, Funny

      They should tax having sex. After all, babies are made of carbon.

      --
      "linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
    9. Re:So, its a marketing label only by Idiomatick · · Score: 1

      Unless you get cremated at death you at least sequester carbon, maybe you should get a tax credit. By 'you' of course I mean a non-/.er that actually has sex.

    10. Re:So, its a marketing label only by 517714 · · Score: 1
      I live alone and some of the ratings are meaningless for me - the most efficient front loading washing machine a few years ago, an Energy Star model that washes efficiently but has a high standby current would have used at least twice the energy as my 14 year old top loader which uses more than twice the energy to wash a load - I don't do a lot of loads in a year and the machine draws nothing while idle. Energy Star is based on 400 loads a year.

      The Government has no business endorsing any product.

      --
      The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
    11. Re:So, its a marketing label only by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 2, Funny

      Hey, you insensitive clod, I'm a /.er that has had sex!

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    12. Re:So, its a marketing label only by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There you slashdotters go again, trying to shift the tax burden onto us parents. Luke! is that you ? Come on up out of the basement son...

    13. Re:So, its a marketing label only by LaminatorX · · Score: 1

      I have a patent pending method for producing babies composed of over 75% water.

    14. Re:So, its a marketing label only by BlueParrot · · Score: 1

      They should tax having sex. After all, babies are made of carbon.

      Do I get a tax credit for preferring other women then?

    15. Re:So, its a marketing label only by anarche · · Score: 1

      no /. credit

      --
      Wait! Whats a sig?
    16. Re:So, its a marketing label only by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the other hand, the carbon is fixed into the baby until you burn it.

    17. Re:So, its a marketing label only by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Just taxing everything really just makes people poor.

      It is a good barrier to entry, but there has to be something else available. I know it sucks, but there isn't anything yet, unless you can convince people to build fission.

      We should reduce taxes on building the green stuff. You have to GIVE when you are the government, not TAKE.

    18. Re:So, its a marketing label only by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And then you joined /.

    19. Re:So, its a marketing label only by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes but the Palm twins ( Lisa and Renee ) don't count as sex .... well at least for most non-/. er's they don't.

    20. Re:So, its a marketing label only by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There was an article not long back about how merrill lynch is one of the driving forces behind cap and trade... And then looking back at their place in the last half dozen "bubbles". On a phone, so don't have it, but search around. Good read. A real tear-jerker...

    21. Re:So, its a marketing label only by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Having sex with your hand doesn't count, though.

    22. Re:So, its a marketing label only by freaker_TuC · · Score: 1

      That's good, so we earn a bit of profits after all..

      --
      --- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
    23. Re:So, its a marketing label only by KaoticEvil · · Score: 0

      WOW! So there really ARE /.ers that have had sex...
      Wait.. Was it with a real person? A human being, I mean..

      --
      You can close your eyes to reality but not to memories.
    24. Re:So, its a marketing label only by KnightBlade · · Score: 1

      http://www.p3international.com/products/special/P4400/P4400-CE.html - this is your friend. Trust nothing but this.

    25. Re:So, its a marketing label only by Herkum01 · · Score: 1

      Oh great, now the special interests groups are are here too.

    26. Re:So, its a marketing label only by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Al Gore is another one. He's behind at least one major company that stands to make huge money off of the things.

    27. Re:So, its a marketing label only by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

      Yes, it was, and of the opposite sex to boot. Not trying to brag or anything, but just wanting to let others know that /. and sex aren't mutually exclusive.

      Granted I was a bone-head last night and will probably never know a woman ever again.

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    28. Re:So, its a marketing label only by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

      If it had been with my hand I would not have said anything.

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    29. Re:So, its a marketing label only by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

      Good for me than that I don't count them.

      Also, you insensitive clod, Lisa Renee was the name of a good friend of mine who died from Leukemia. While I get your reference, next time don't use names like that.

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    30. Re:So, its a marketing label only by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

      Before and during my membership to /.

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    31. Re:So, its a marketing label only by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not masturbation tho, that's a carbon sequestering method.

    32. Re:So, its a marketing label only by toddestan · · Score: 1

      What does a washing machine even need a standby current for? Are they remote controlled now or something? My top loader, about the same age as yours, has a mechanical switch and uses precisely zero energy when it's not running.

  3. dang by mysidia · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I guess the secret's out about my Energy Star certified gas-guzzling SUV that gets 10mpg, which I drive a few hundred miles every day?

  4. Tropic Thunda! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That Tropical Thunder website is fueled by awesome-sauce.

    I love how all the sites were 'Spun by Sitespinner.' Makes the Energy Star evaluators^Wapprovers seem doubleplus inept

    1. Re:Tropic Thunda! by ajlitt · · Score: 1

      I especially like the room air cleaner. It's hard to tell, but I think that's a tower fan with a dirty Swiffer packing-taped to the front.

  5. Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Lost+Found · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Bernie Madoff stole 50 billion dollars right under the SEC and FINRA's noses. Unlike private agencies like the UL that face the threat of extinction if they ruin their brand, government agencies routinely screw up, screw the people they're supposed to protect and get more money for their failures.

    1. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder what you might have to say about a more relevant example of private bond rating agencies (such as Standard & Poors and Moodys).

    2. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by PineGreen · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This kind of comments make me want to return to Europe. I've been living in US for a couple of years now, I have a 6 figure salary and you know what: I hate paying so little in taxes. Because you get what you pay for. In USA you have small government, no taxes and hence everyone gets routinely screwed up by private sector: I have never paid so much in telecommunications, so much in healthcare costs for the shittiest service ever and I just punctured tire on my audi last week because of a massive pothole on a *freeway*. But as long as you get screwed by private sector everyone is happy. And then because one gov service is bad, everybody starts screaming big government is the root of all evil. For fuck sake, have you people ever tried trains in germany or healthcare in UK? USA could have been such a good country, food can be so amazing in NY and multiculturalism beats everybody else, but if people were just a little bit more sensible brained....

    3. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by moosesocks · · Score: 5, Informative

      As somebody who works for the government, I take your comment as a personal insult.

      If anything, the efficiency of the government is greater than private industry, thanks to the intense level of scrutiny we're put through. (If anything, the extensive accountability measures that we have to undergo are the one thing that hinders our efficiency)

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    4. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by psiogen · · Score: 1, Insightful

      After everything that's happened in the last 3 years...all the Wall Street flimflammers who wrecked the economy and got away with millions...you still think it's only government offices that are filled with shoddy work and bad incentives?

    5. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by superdave80 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I don't think it is necessarily a question of HOW MUCH in taxes, but what it is spent on. Why do we even have a government agency to put a damn energy star sticker on the side of an appliance? Simply make all manufacturers print the power draw of their item on the side of the package. Done. Anyone who gives two craps about how much power something uses can look on the package. Anyone who doesn't bother to probably wouldn't care about the whole energy star thing anyways.

      That money wasted on the 'energy star' bureaucracy could have been used to fill the pothole that you hit.

    6. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Toonol · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I logged in so I could mod you funny, but my mod points are gone. So... anyway, don't take it as a personal insult. It's just the nature of the beast. There's no REASON states need to be efficient or competitive in most fields, so they aren't.

    7. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Fujisawa+Sensei · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Bernie Madoff stole 50 billion dollars right under the SEC and FINRA's noses. Unlike private agencies like the UL that face the threat of extinction if they ruin their brand, government agencies routinely screw up, screw the people they're supposed to protect and get more money for their failures.

      That's because the free market Republicans and Libertarians want to make sure the government can't do anything; because the market is self regulating.

      When the head of the SEC doesn't believe in regulation, you can be certain that very little will be regulated.

      --
      If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
    8. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 0, Troll

      Sorry you are insulted, but the government is not more efficient than private industry. Never has been, never will be.

      Also, cite your sources. Specious claims like the above without any source material to back it up are just plain silly.

      I can claim that government employees make more money than their private-sector counterparts doing the same or similar job, but unless I can back up that claim (CATO Tax and Budget Bulletin, issue number 59 (74KB PDF)), it's a ridiculous claim.

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    9. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Idiomatick · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "a secret evaluation conducted by the Government Accountability Office."

      From that I take it that you just closed your eyes and fled from this story? Government busting government doing bad things. BTW, there was nothing stopping a private company from trying this, but government did it. I guess it isn't all bad? They are improving or does that anger you? I don't know these days with anti-government types.

    10. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by thtrgremlin · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      HA HA HA HA HA!!!

      The AMOUNT of scrutiny? You mean those people that get paid by the hour to pretend like they know what they are talking about? Just because you get slammed with endless over sight and it takes often dozens of people to sign off on something before anything gets done only makes it very expensive, not improve quality or efficiency. In any business you get 0, 1 or 2 of 3 things: Good, Fast, Cheap. I will give credit to our military: their toys are really really good, but at the same time much of that technology comes from private industry, but paid for with tax dollars, so effectively the same thing. Halliburton is amazing as the good and fast thing, like when someone has a need for a refugee camp with food, water, and shelter some random place in the world for 10,000 people, and we need it tomorrow... Well considering that Halliburton is the only company that provides that type of service, not much to compare it to. Does no competition due to lack of capital qualify as cheap? anyway...

      Government is "amazing" in many respects. Good managers of our money? Hmm... I don't think so. And those are just the nice things I can say.

      Efficiency is consumer choice. They either buy it because you did something right, or they do not, and in any way that is a fallacious argument the case for government is far worse. If you are Nolan's definition of a Statist such that the governments goal is to self empower with no greater purpose than itself, then yeah, I concede government is quite efficient. Just look at the progressiveness of the Wilson administration.

      --
      Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
    11. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by khallow · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why are you in the US, if the EU is so much better? The US is different. It isn't Germany or the UK. That traditional distrust of government may well be one of the fundamental reasons why you have a job here. And to be honest, if the government can't fix potholes in freeways, then it's going to screw up any trains or health care that it gets near.

    12. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      And it’s your fault. They are your employees! Fire them, or shut the fuck up!
      If you don’t stand by your rules, but put up with shit, obviously others will walk all over you.
      (If voting isn’t effective anymore, there are other ways.)

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    13. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's too bad you haven't enjoyed our semi-socialized healthcare system, where half the costs have been fronted by the government, and the other half obscured from the real purchasers by government intervention (limiting what states insurers can compete in and promoting employer-purchases insurance in lieu of insuree purchased insurance). Unfortunately, however much it may suck in your personal experience, it's not a good example for you to cite of American capitalism failing. Fyi, freeways are paid for entirely by the government, although if you are complaining simply about too little money being spent, you should be aware that more money (at least as I've heard it reported) is spent on American healthcare.

      I have to wonder what your beef is with the telecoms--do you have a landline? Deregulation of the cellphone market is a rather famous example of where deregulation worked really well--it's an awful lot cheaper now than it used to be.

      I would like to point out that a single pothole does not a bad road make. There are going to be anomalous potholes in the highway whether in America or Europe simply because they layout so much road (America has the largest highway system in the world, which is also the largest public works project in history). In addition there may simply be a bad region (did you drive on every highway in Europe before making your comparison?) and certain areas are much more vulnerable to the formation of potholes due to local climate/terrain. America is much less densely populated than Europe, which means we have to layout a lot more road per citizen, and so we may well be making greater expenditures with inferior results.

      The point being that you take a tremendously complex multitude of factors and simplify them all into an entirely unrepresentative anecdote. Fyi my own experience with roads, healthcare, and phone bills has all been generally positive.

      P.S. IANAL, but if you really "hate paying so little in taxes," I am inclined to think that the IRS would not have a problem with you writing them a bigger check.

    14. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      Oh, and “but what can one person do?” is not an excuse but the cause of its own problem, because it’s circular reasoning. Others wouldn’t be the only ones, if someone started it. Someone — as in you (or in my case me). Not as in “Anyone but me, so I can continue to use it as an excuse, just like everybody else.”

      (Yep, I’m working hard on changing what I can in this world, so what I think is better for us all, has a bigger chance of coming true.)

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    15. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by NicknamesAreStupid · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In all fairness to this civil servant, there are entities more inefficient than the Federal Government. For example, there are the United Nations, the World Bank, and NATO. Most companies fail when they become this inefficient. It take a lot more to fail a larger company, and it takes a whole lot more to fail a nation, especially one of this size. There is a price to pay for efficiency. As Truman said, "the most efficient government is a tyranny."

    16. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by moosesocks · · Score: 0, Redundant

      There are plenty of services/industries that are not, and never can be simultaneously competitive and efficient.

      The government is the best entity to regulate or directly run these services in order to prevent abuses from occurring in these industries (examples: transportation, healthcare, "last-mile" telecoms, and other utilities).

      Governments have a poor track record of anticipating demand and controlling means of production -- this was the chief failure of communism. On the other hand, governments have an excellent track record of providing essential services and utilities. Take a look at Thatcher's domestic legacy in the UK for a nice comparison of private vs. government-managed services.

      Politicians have a fire lit under their ass to make sure that taxes are spent efficiently. The Republicans got their asses handed to them in 2006 and 2008 because of it, and the Democrats will likely see the same thing happen to them this year.

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    17. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with firing the elected officials is that it takes a majority of voters to do that. I don't know if you've noticed, but a large portion of the American voting public is a bunch of FUCKING IDIOTS. They are led around by the nose and believe whatever rhetoric is spoon fed to them. As a result, real government reform is an uphill battle.

    18. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "This kind of comments make me want to return to Europe."

      Please feel free to do just that. I do agree that you get what you pay for, but that's the beauty of this country; you can pick how much you wish to spend on any particular aspect. If you want total coverage healthcare, you buy it. If you get "shitty" service at a hospital, you can (drumroll please) GO TO A DIFFERENT HOSPITAL! Wotta concept. You seem to have an uber-simplistic view of how public services and/or government works, but then, most Europeans do. I just have to add two more things: 1. NYC is a complete toilet: filthy, overcrowded, crime-ridden, gridlocked, and useless, with the exception of a few places like the Carnegie Deli and Little Italy, and 2. Regarding your comment on healthcare in the UK...ah, I'm guessing you weren't referring to dental care, right?

    19. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by dynamo52 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You are missing the point. The reason government here can't fix potholes is because conservative business leaders have consistently pushed just the idea you expressed and managed to successfully disguise it as a populist, libertarian movement. Over time this becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Government is increasingly under resourced making it more ineffectual. This combined with horrible campaign finance legislation has allowed industry lobbyists to essentially control the agencies which are supposed to regulate them.

      The fact that this was discovered by the GAO, also a government agency, shows that regulation and oversight can and does have beneficial results. Now just imagine what a new Consumer Protection Agency as envisioned by the Democrats could do.

      The Democrats are the party that says government will make you smarter, taller, richer, and remove the crabgrass on your lawn. The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it.
      P.J. O'Rourke

      --
      Like this comment? I accept Bitcoin! - 153sc8UUBXyp12ofQqfAWDmJrzyiKCYC1x
    20. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by khallow · · Score: 1

      The reason government here can't fix potholes is because conservative business leaders have consistently pushed just the idea you expressed and managed to successfully disguise it as a populist, libertarian movement. Over time this becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

      So what you're saying, is that they are right.

      shows that regulation and oversight can and does have beneficial results.

      Regulation and oversight is a tradition weakness of government anywhere. Sure, this can have beneficial results, but only if it is done.

    21. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by 517714 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      So you and what? three other of the govermment employees actually work? You want to know why the HOV lanes work in MD and VA? Because government employees know that they are to be at work at 8:00 and they will be leaving work at 5:00 sharp and that allows them to carpool; the rest of the white collar workers in this country routinely put in uncompensated overtime that is incompatible with carpooling.

      If you take the comment as personal insult perhap you can explain how the GAO can find this level of incompetence.

      The products I make are scrutinized every day and if they are found wanting, my customers will stop buying, and I go out of business - That is accountability!

      --
      The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
    22. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by dmiller · · Score: 1

      You mean like Moody's or Standard and Poor's? Oh, wait...

    23. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by tompaulco · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well, we could start in on Dun and Bradstreet, who used to be a reasonably reputable organization, but now they have resorted to the same kind of "important message" scams to get you to sign up as Classmates.com. I needed to get a Duns number from them for my business in order to secure a contract with a customer. I called up to get my free number, and I was unable to get one. The agent tried to sell me something I didn't want, but which i couldn't come up with an acceptable (to him) answer as to why I didn't want the service. He said he would give me a free duns number as soon as I could give him an acceptable reason why I wouldn't purchase their service that I didn't want. I got increasingly firm, and finally belligerent, but he was not to be swayed. Finally after 5 minutes, I hung up in frustration. I did not get the contract with the customer, and now I avoid doing business with any customer that is so far behind the times that they think a DBS number is something worthwhile to have.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    24. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Capt.+Skinny · · Score: 1

      Politicians have a fire lit under their ass to make sure that taxes are spent efficiently. The Republicans got their asses handed to them in 2006 and 2008 because of it...

      Catching a lot of flak from the public and the news media is hardly the same fire-under-the-ass faced by those who run a for-profit entity. How many of these Republicans from 2006 and 2008 lost elections because of spending? Voters are apathetic; shareholders, not so much.

    25. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Lost+Found · · Score: 1

      Don't forget that it was an individual from the private sector that independently investigated Madoff's fund and tried repeatedly to warn the government, which continued to tell investors that Madoff was a-ok.

    26. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      No one is stopping you from paying more in taxes. Really you don't want to though. You'd rather have a car than read train schedules, and you'd rather keep your six figures than pay for the large unemployed class on the dole in Germany and the UK. You do end paying a kind of tax on health-care and telecommunications to subsidize these services for the poor, though it's true both areas could use some better regulation. As for potholes--Americans find it inconvenient to have cobblestone freeways.

    27. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by shentino · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The wonderful thing is that we live in a country where being rude to the government gets you no more punishment than a retort and possible loss of face among peers.

      Recently I watched a video of Bush getting the living crap booed out of him at Obama's inauguration. I think it reflects badly on americans in general. However, seeing the booers not getting mowed down by tanks made me very proud to be an american.

    28. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Lost+Found · · Score: 1

      It was the government that created all those distorted incentives in the first place... what with a fiat currency, interest rates at 1%, government regulations requiring banks to lend to people who couldn't afford it, government pushing Fannie and Freddie (corporations created by FDR in the New Deal) to extend their implicit government guarantee to sub-prime mortgages...

      And you still think we should trust the bastards to watch our back? They didn't just miss all of this stuff, they lit the fire and then poured gasoline all over it!

    29. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Lost+Found · · Score: 1

      When you operate with a government-granted monopoly, you get to do all the crazy things government does and get away with it. Especially when your phony ratings extend to things like government bonds which the government absolutely wants good ratings on, no matter how miserable their real financial picture is.

    30. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by IMightB · · Score: 1

      Duh it did self regulate madoff. It seperated all those greedy fools from their money. Madoff in jail, trust me no ones going to be investing with him any more

    31. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by 517714 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Let's tally this up - Six figure salary, Drives an Audi, Lives in NYC. Yeah we are all very impressed - were you wearing an Armani suit at the time? The reason your telecommunications cost so much? You live in NYC. The reason for the shittiest service ever? You Live in NYC! The reason you got a flat? You LIVE in NYC! Do you see a pattern emerging yet? NYC is not a microcosm of the US - it is an aberration.

      --
      The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
    32. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Capt.+Skinny · · Score: 2

      I have a 6 figure salary and you know what: I hate paying so little in taxes

      At 6 figures you're paying what, about one-third of your income in Federal taxes? Would you care to enlighten us as to what would be a more appropriate distribution of the fruits of your labor between yourself and the United States? What should the extra money pay for, exactly? You mention telecom and healthcare, but paying more in taxes so we can pay less for government-subsidized phones and doctors seems like a wash to me. Either way we have to shell out.

    33. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by dynamo52 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Regulation and oversight is a tradition weakness of government anywhere. Sure, this can have beneficial results, but only if it is done.

      Exactly my point. Instead of continuing down the path of smaller and more ineffective government that has put us in this position, it is time to start rebuilding the regulatory structures that the corporate right has methodically dismantled over the last thirty years with the incessant mantra of deregulation. A well reasoned regulatory structure operating as an independent agency as Obama is proposing could expose hundreds of these types of abuses. Why do you think the Republicans are opposing it so strongly? If their contributors had to actually earn their money their fundraisers might not go so well.

      --
      Like this comment? I accept Bitcoin! - 153sc8UUBXyp12ofQqfAWDmJrzyiKCYC1x
    34. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Lost+Found · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, that's a good thing, but that free speech we all value is constantly being eroded by the government we elect to defend it. I wonder how the founding fathers would have felt about free speech zones, having to get a permit to hold a protest, or enormous government spy agencies monitoring the communications of Americans en masse, categorizing them as "threats" based on political views or affiliations.

      Don't forget that presidents in this century and the last jailed people merely for opposing their wars.

      Yeah, the booers aren't getting mowed down by tanks. But my pride as an American comes from the fact that we still have a few citizens left that realize even that freedom is under assault.

    35. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Lost+Found · · Score: 1

      I should amend that to refer to the 20th and 19th century. We haven't yet had enough time in the 21st to make it 3.

    36. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by izomiac · · Score: 2

      You must remember that the US taxes businesses more than Europe does. So that's why some things are more expensive (think of it like a tax, just an indirect one). OTOH, the US does seem to focus more on efficiency of services than on raw quantity.

      With 28% of the GDP collected as tax revenue the US maintains a very high standard of living. A country like Sweden has a higher standard (e.g. HDI), but IMHO they dip into diminishing returns by spending nearly 50% of their GDP to achieve that. Australia and Japan seem to have the best trade off, if HDI is to be believed.

    37. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by sumdumass · · Score: 0, Informative

      You are missing the point. The reason government here can't fix potholes is because conservative business leaders have consistently pushed just the idea you expressed and managed to successfully disguise it as a populist, libertarian movement. Over time this becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Blah blah blah

      That's not the point in reality at all. The people who use the roads pay taxes on their gasoline in exchange for using the roads, this gas tax money has been used for so many different things then for the roads that it's pathetic. And each time it's done this way, it is done by a democrat, not some conservative business leader. I mean hell, in my area, they just spent millions from the road fund purchasing land and building a bike path on it. This bike path doesn't even go near the industrial sites, businesses, or anything, they made a fucking scenic route around town.

      In fact, the so called conservative business people that you are talking about have little to do with anything you or the previous poster has said. It's incompetence from all sides in government that cause these problems. It's Unions that protect crappy unproductive workers while demanding extra pay and benefits. It's unnecessary regulation and in some cases over regulation aligned with poor regulation that causes projects to cost more to accomplish. It's politicians squandering money for things that people do not want. In my state, they just had to do a bunch of budget cuts and stop a tax break from taking effect in order to pass a balances fiscal budget, In two years, they expect the budget to be deficient at least 12 billion dollars and some have estimated it up to 24 billion or more.

      And do I see the state legislature curbing spending or attempting to streamline government? Hell no, they are talking about taking a 200 million dollar per year liability onto the budget just to get low speed rail connecting one side of the state to another that wouldn't even be scheduled properly for anything productive. It's idiots like that which cause potholes in roads not to be patched promptly. Hell, we were going to chip seal a couple roads in the township using volunteer labor and the state refused to place them under the townships insurance policy because they weren't paid a full wage. The only way you can volunteer for a government project in my state is to become part of the state program which means you have to approve all project through the state, the volunteers could be called into work for other areas and could be required to get specialized training in areas they do no want to work in. That's really efficient there isn't it. I mean hell, we had trucks lined up, a spreader, a tar sprayer and everything all donated from the community for use in repairing these roads and the democrat controlled state house shut it down because it doesn't give the unions another employee.

      The fact that this was discovered by the GAO, also a government agency, shows that regulation and oversight can and does have beneficial results. Now just imagine what a new Consumer Protection Agency as envisioned by the Democrats could do.

      So there was oversight from a separate government agency after 15 year? The energy star program started in 1992 and you think this is some major accomplishment that we should expand the power government has because of some party line crap spouted to you? You need to wake up and stop drinking the cool-aid. And do not even attempt to claim that conservatives were in charge since then because that's factually incorrect.

      How about starting with oversight within the actual department that is issuing fraudulent certifications or getting rid of the certifications altogether? I mean this is the entire reasoning of the report and why the EPA submitted bogus claims to be certified. In the GAO report, it said that the EPA didn't even verify the certifications it requested when the GAO submitted it's a certification supposedly from one

    38. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      This wasn't the government doing 'bad things'.

      The entire setup was purposefully set up to allow corporations to claim whatever they want, and get 'certified' for it.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    39. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's stopping you from going back to Europe? Enjoy the rapidly growing fascist nanny state. There's something to be said for doing something morally right and not forcing others to pay for things which may not benefit them. Well, to be fair no country in the world is really moral anymore. The US was for a couple of years after 1776 when they weren't yet taxing people to pay for government services.

      Lest you believe that it would be impossible to run a country entirely on donations, look at charities and look at how effectively we kicked the asses of the British in our revolution. We were poorly equipped, untrained, and undereducated but we knew more about our country than the British did, and we knew we were in the right to kick them out, and people actually put their money where there mouths were.

      As it stands now I get to wait 8 weeks for an amendment to my IRS tax return to process while if I had just submitted a new return it would only take 6 weeks for it to process. How is that fair? Very few private companies allow each other to lag behind in payments for 60 days. Efficient Government is an oxymoron.

      The reason we get screwed by private sector companies is because government is so all-encompassing that a lobbyist from said company can buy whatever law they want. If we really gave a crap about the military-industrial complex we would be trying to reduce the size of government, not make it more all-encompassing. Every single cost you cite is related to companies who have a government-granted monopoly on service in your area.

    40. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      And to be honest, if the government can't fix potholes in freeways, then it's going to screw up any trains or health care that it gets near.

      You're completely missing the point, most likely intentionally. You're saying that if the government can't fix the potholes with its current funding, then giving it more funds won't let it do more. He's pointing out that in countries with higher taxes, they have better government roads and services. Your point makes no sense, his is empirical.

    41. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by repetty · · Score: 1

      > Why are you in the US, if the EU is so much better? The US is
      > different. It isn't Germany or the UK. That traditional distrust
      > of government may well be one of the fundamental reasons why you
      > have a job here. And to be honest, if the government can't fix
      > potholes in freeways, then it's going to screw up any trains or
      > health care that it gets near.

      I fail to see why this is modded "5, Insightful."

      Maybe it ought to be "3, Defensive."

      You should have stopped right before the part that goes, "And to be honest...."

      If you had stopped there, you'd've been okay, but instead you went off into silly speculation. Credibility = 0.

      Disappointing since you had just made a good point.

    42. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by repetty · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > Deregulation of the cellphone market is a rather famous example of
      > where deregulation worked really well--it's an awful lot cheaper
      > now than it used to be.

      Well, that and a half-dozen other major factors. In fact, the cell phone market is MUCH cheaper all around the entire world than it once was. What was your point, again?

      I love competition as much as the next guy but don't toot your little horn too loudly about deregulation success stories or someone will quote you one fantastic deregulation failure to match everyone one of your successes.

    43. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      40-60%?

      as a Canadian, I now wonder if you are pulling numbers out of your ass.

    44. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by megajason · · Score: 1

      Can you please give some examples of the regulatory structures that have been dismantled over the last 30 years.

    45. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We don't want choice in hospitals. We just want ONE that DOES IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME.

      Europe: You get 1 doctor, he knows what he's doing, you walk away happy.
      US: You can take your pick of 5 people who will gladly milk you for money over the next 10 years and never fix your problem

      Choice isn't necessarily a good thing. I'd rather have one good restaurant in town than my "choice" of McDonald's, Burger King and KFC.

      PS: UK dental care is superior to US - UK citizens keep their teeth far longer than US counterparts, and report far less pain. The UK 'bad teeth' myth is just that, a myth. But keep your ass in the air, you've got your choice of rapists coming behind you. Fucktard.

    46. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Wow as a Canadian please let me politely state - taxes on income do not support only health care. Oh and yes I'm in one of the higher paying tax brackets.

      Just in case you missed the the point. Your argument as it refers to the Canadian tax system and it's support rate for health care is a feces loaded sandwich that your are willingly chomping down on without much research or independent thought.

    47. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by King_TJ · · Score: 1

      Yeah, sure.... let's twist the truth to suit you.

      The Libertarians have exactly HOW many people in political office right now? A major influence or driving force in American government, they're simply not ....

      IMHO, we've never truly even HAD a situation where "very little was regulated". What we usually get is some random "deregulation" in one area, while everything related stays under tight government control. Then when it fails, they turn around and say "See! The free market doesn't work!"

    48. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html

      Highest tax rate in Canada according to this is 29% (on income over 127K canadian). Highest provincial tax rate quoted there was 17.5% on income over 62k. That makes 46.6% (presuming both are taken on the gross wages). The lowest rates are roughly 15% federal, 5% provincial giving 20% on the gross.

      Where exactly do you get 40-60 percent from? I also doubt the 'word of your friend living in the UK' - I lived there for years and had the fastest service I've ever seen, never a question of whether I needed anything. From surgery to consultation was scheduled in short order and delivered on time. Moving to the US healthcare has been a nightmare, having to fight the provider for every test, procedure etc that my doctor tells me I should have.

      So, basically, you're full of shit.

    49. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      You do have a point, and the first party who can come up with ideas to make government work, I will vote for. Right now, both parties have been doing an excellent job showing how inept they are. It's pathetic.

      --
      Qxe4
    50. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by dynamo52 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      These quotes are direct from wikipedia or, in the absence of a wikipedia article, from the first source I could find

      The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act (GLBA), also known as the Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999, (Pub.L. 106-102, 113 Stat. 1338, enacted November 12, 1999) is an act of the 106th United States Congress (1999-2001) which repealed part of the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933, opening up the market among banking companies, securities companies and insurance companies. The Glass-Steagall Act prohibited any one institution from acting as any combination of an investment bank, a commercial bank, and/or an insurance company.

      Sounds like that could cause problems... no, wait, it already has!

      The Telecommunications Act of 1996 was the first major overhaul of United States telecommunications law in nearly 62 years, amending the Communications Act of 1934.

      OK, I'll give them this one.

      The Energy Policy Act of 1992 (EPACT) created a framework for a competitive wholesale electricity generation market and established a new category of electricity producer, the exempt wholesale generator (EWG). These EWGs were not subject to the constraints on nonutility electricity generation specified in the Public Utility Holding Company Act, which made it easier for them to enter the wholesale electricity market. The law also mandated that the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) open up the national electricity transmission system to wholesale suppliers on a case-by-case basis.

      stripping many environmental protections along with it

      The Natural Gas Wellhead Decontrol Act of 1989 (NGWDA) required the removal of all price ceilings dictated by the Natural Gas Policy Act of 1978 (NGPA) by January 1, 1993, rather than by the end of the century as called for in the NGPA.

      Allowing energy companies to make more money.

      The Bus Regulatory Reform Act of 1982 addresses in Section 6 the issue of transborder trucking. It imposes a moratorium on the issuance of certificates or permits to motor carriers domiciled in, or owned or controlled by persons of, a contiguous foreign country.

      Though they will rally against the same concept as instituted by NAFTA to stir anti-immigrant sentiment.

      The Garn-St. Germain Depository Institutions Act of 1982 (Pub.L. 97-320, H.R. 6267, enacted 1982-10-15) is an Act of Congress, that deregulated the Savings and Loan industry. This Act turned out to be one of many contributing factors that led to the Savings and Loan crisis of the late 1980s.

      --
      Like this comment? I accept Bitcoin! - 153sc8UUBXyp12ofQqfAWDmJrzyiKCYC1x
    51. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by dynamo52 · · Score: 1

      For the record, this list only includes acts of congress. These are all republican sponsored bills. That is only half the story though. Through executive order and policy changes, a much looser interpretation of the regulations, or a simple lack of enforcement, the Bush administration effectively stripped away a large existing environmental and consumer protections. Reagan too.

      --
      Like this comment? I accept Bitcoin! - 153sc8UUBXyp12ofQqfAWDmJrzyiKCYC1x
    52. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Freedom is always under assault. If a country wishes to be free, it must stand together and hold back the forces of corruption and tyranny.

      Obviously were not doing a very good job of that in America. You can blame complacency for that.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    53. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Canadians are taxed on their income for healthcare at a tune of anywhere from 40% to 60%, yet they still have waiting lists - even for necessary surgery.

      This is flat out wrong.

    54. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by nacturation · · Score: 3, Informative

      Canadians are taxed on their income for healthcare at a tune of anywhere from 40% to 60%, yet they still have waiting lists - even for necessary surgery.

      Yes, some Canadians might pay between 40% and 60% of their income as taxes. However, unless you think that 100% of all tax revenue funds healthcare, your numbers are completely out to lunch. Either I've been trolled, or you need to learn a few more things.

      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    55. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ha, ha, ha, ha... You are kidding right? How many billions of dollars did the government steal from hard working Americans for just a handful of jobs? Please! For every $1,000 that goes into Washington, only a penny leaves. The only job sector in the nation that's grown in the past year because we have Democrats who think every problem is best solved by politicians, bureaucrats, and tax payers money. Except now, they are just using a big fat credit card. Sad...

    56. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      The Libertarians have exactly HOW many people in political office right now?

      No True Scottsman.

      A major influence or driving force in American government, they're simply not ....

      But their philosophy as applied to regulation and oversight certainly does. Just ask Alan Greenspan.

    57. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Don't forget he wouldn't have had to without decades of deregulation for the sake of deregulation. Thanks, Reagan!

    58. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Enjoy the rapidly growing fascist nanny state.

      You realize that's a compete contradiction in terms, right?

      Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power.
      Benito Mussolini

    59. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      You must remember that the US taxes businesses more than Europe does.

      You must realize that's only the case if said business doesn't write off the cost of lobbying as a business expense. Or $10 million a year in salary to the CEO. Or $6 million a year to the CFO and COO. Each. Or millions more in golden parachutes for their top executives.

      So, how many businesses that you know of take a pass on writing off every conceivable expenditure as a cost of doing business?

    60. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Uberbah · · Score: 2, Informative

      The reason your telecommunications cost so much? You live in NYC. The reason for the shittiest service ever? You Live in NYC!

      Right, right. Except when we complain how shitty our telecommunications service is in the United States compared to other nations, the excuse given is that the U.S. is far more rural than Asian or European countries with far faster services. Except if you happen to live in a densely populated urban area in the U.S., then you have shitty, overpriced services because you live in a highly populated area.

      Sure.

    61. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Nice misdirection. Take an agency with a thousand inspectors, and over the course of a couple decades, slash their number down to 50. Is the structure still there? Of course it is. Is it remotely as effective?

    62. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Yes, because so many Americans have the time and expertise to evaluate electrical devices and their min/average/max power draws. Vs having a voluntary program that's easy to understand: you buy something with an Energy Start sticker on it, it should be a reasonably efficient device.

    63. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Uberbah · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So you and what? three other of the govermment employees actually work?

      Yes, way to hate on your fellow workers. Smashing, yeah corporatism.

      You want to know why the HOV lanes work in MD and VA? Because government employees know that they are to be at work at 8:00 and they will be leaving work at 5:00 sharp and that allows them to carpool; the rest of the white collar workers in this country routinely put in uncompensated overtime that is incompatible with carpooling.

      Get over your inflated egos and form a union then. Funny how the fuck-you-I-got-mine attitude only applies to people who climb the corporate ladder, not workers who bargain for better compensation and fewer hours.

    64. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by mjensen · · Score: 1

      [citation requested]

    65. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by khallow · · Score: 1

      I don't see the problem here. These industries were heavily overregulated. For example, the first couple of examples partly fixed bad law from the 30s when FDR was in charge. Sure this deregulation contributed to some economic bubbles, but I don't see economic bubbles as something to be avoided. They appear naturally even in highly rational or regulated markets IMHO.

    66. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by khallow · · Score: 1

      You're saying that if the government can't fix the potholes with its current funding, then giving it more funds won't let it do more. He's pointing out that in countries with higher taxes, they have better government roads and services. Your point makes no sense, his is empirical.

      First, my argument is based on evidence. His government isn't fixing their potholes. The claim that more money will mean more fixed potholes is merely unsupported opinion. It is more likely that they already receive more than adequate money for fixing potholes, they just choose to squander it on other things, like supporting a heavy bureaucracy. Second, he gives an anecdote with two countries. Just because Germany has figured out to fix its potholes doesn't imply that more taxes means better service. One anecdote does not imply a correlation.

    67. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by khallow · · Score: 1

      You should have stopped right before the part that goes, "And to be honest...."

      I disagree. Freeway potholes should be among the highest priority road repair. They can damage a lot of cars and they are relatively cheap to repair. High harm and low cost to fix. Sure, it is possible that this government doesn't have repair funds to keep its entire road system in adequate shape. But to claim that it can't keep the most heavily used roads free of potholes due to lack of funding? That's nonsense.

    68. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by khallow · · Score: 1

      First, you have to give a real world example of an agency that has been trimmed in this way. Second, this agency actually has to be doing something useful and productive that required a thousand inspectors.

    69. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Lost+Found · · Score: 1

      Excuse me, how does deregulation have anything to do with SEC incompetency? The financial services industry in America is one of the most regulated industries in the world.

    70. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by khallow · · Score: 1

      The fact that this was discovered by the GAO

      Conflict of interest.

      Now just imagine what a new Consumer Protection Agency as envisioned by the Democrats could do.

      It could be wonderful or it could cost millions of US jobs without providing any measurable support or protection for consumers. The Democrats have a pretty bad record for this sort of thing so I'd bet on the latter.

    71. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are also making a short-sighted argument. Regulation is one, relatively small part of government, and it has very limited impact on government efficiency.

      Government has no motive to be efficient in the first place. As a consultant, I have heard all of the horror stories when new business or technology strategies could save government millions of dollars, and these are rejected out of hand, for the most obvious and scary reasons: This will reduce my budget, this will reduce my prestige, this may reduce the number of employees that I have. There is no private sector reaction: this will save me money, increase profit, open up new growth opportunities.

      If you argued to focus our government resources on the right things, merge overlapping agencies, and cut the flab so that the most important government structures would be more effective I would be with you. That such opportunities are ripe is clear to great businessmen across the country. That anything will ever come of them is much less certain, for the mindset of those in government nearly precludes the possibility.

    72. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Doviende · · Score: 1

      I'm Canadian, I'm a well-paid Data Center Technician, and I pay less than 30% tax. My company also pays the minor extra fee for medical stuff, so I've actually never seen a medical bill or fee of any sort for years. And clearly, as the parent mentions, not all of my 30% tax rate is going to the medical system.

      --
      "The value of a man resides in what he gives,
      and not in what he is capable of receiving."
      --Albert Einstein
    73. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by PineGreen · · Score: 1

      To reply to all who are asking what is stopping me from going back to Europe: NYC is, after all, still the best of all options. In Paris one can never be French, in Tokyo one is never a Japanese and in London, food is just terrible plus jobs are rather limited in my field. I think NYC is the best place in the world to live in because it is a city of immigrants, a melting pot where there is always fun things to do. I love USA because of its multiculturalism and amazing nature, not because of its "freedoms", SUVs, etc. The problem with Americans is that they do not realise what really makes their country great and want to make it worse rather than better. The other thing: why am I not paying more in taxes: because if I paid more in taxes, this would be money thrown down the toilet. If everyone paid more in taxes, the standard of living would go up.
       

    74. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      I don't know which government you work for, but in Britain, a lot of our tax pounds go on Diversity Coordinators, and Diversity Managers to manage the Diversity Coordinators, and Diversity Directors to direct the Diversity Managers. A quick search on Google would suggest that the US is just as bad.

    75. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it's because the SEC is run by lawyers instead of economists. Madoff was brought down by a concerned citizen, not any of the various government agencies that could have taken action.

    76. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by RzUpAnmsCwrds · · Score: 1

      Except when we complain how shitty our telecommunications service is in the United States compared to other nations

      Except it's not. I'm in a shitty apartment in Jersey City, NJ right now and I can still get 5Mbps+ HSPA+ (from T-Mobile), ~3MBps HSPA (from AT&T), 50Mbps DOCSIS 3.0 from Comcast, or (soon) FiOS from Verizon.

    77. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 0, Troll

      Which part? The amount taxed or waiting lists?

      I've done the research and I have the documents to prove there are waiting lists.

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    78. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

      Since I can't find my source (an article on CBC), I'll concede the point on taxes.

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    79. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 0, Troll

      No, those were numbers given to me by an article I read in the CBC, but it's been years ago and I can't seem to pull it up on search results.

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    80. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by BeanThere · · Score: 1

      Ah, so what you're saying is, you want other people to be forced to pay more of their money, so that you can benefit with things like faster Internet.

    81. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by dynamo52 · · Score: 1

      Point taken but I believe they have it structured appropriately. It is to operate as an independent agency with protections in place to keep it free of politics. Of course implementation is extremely important but I believe we have the right White House in place to set it up properly.

      --
      Like this comment? I accept Bitcoin! - 153sc8UUBXyp12ofQqfAWDmJrzyiKCYC1x
    82. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by dynamo52 · · Score: 1

      That is simply incorrect. Those laws were put in place to prevent exactly those types of speculative markets which serve no greater purpose then to make a few people very wealthy. The idea that speculative markets drive economic activity is true only in the sense that hitting on a gas pedal will accelerate a vehicle. It is great if you want to just keep going faster but without something in place to slow you down, your going to crash.

      --
      Like this comment? I accept Bitcoin! - 153sc8UUBXyp12ofQqfAWDmJrzyiKCYC1x
    83. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by dynamo52 · · Score: 1

      The two ideas are not mutually exclusive. In fact they can both be addressed by... wait for it... greater regulation and oversight. In addition to a Consumer Protection Agency to protect citizens against corporate abuses, Congress could establish a separate, independent agency with a mandate to investigate government waste, fraud, and abuse and give it real enforcement tools. Of course, an agency of this nature would not be able to escape politics completely but if established with clear standards chartered to operate in the light of day (i.e. public oversight) I can see it having a real impact.

      --
      Like this comment? I accept Bitcoin! - 153sc8UUBXyp12ofQqfAWDmJrzyiKCYC1x
    84. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by izomiac · · Score: 1

      Deductions exist to prevent a business from paying taxes on the same item multiple times. With a 40% tax rate, a four step manufacturing process would mean that 87% of the final price would go to taxes if deductions weren't allowed.

      But, in any case, the effective federal tax rate is calculated at 25%, the minimum tax rate (few if any deductions are allowed) is 20%, and the US has the fifth largest corporate tax rate in the world. Combining state and federal, the business tax rate is something around 40%, which is the second highest in the world. This is compared with about 20% for Europe.

    85. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by khallow · · Score: 1

      Point taken but I believe they have it structured appropriately. It is to operate as an independent agency with protections in place to keep it free of politics.

      Who appoints the directors and head people in this organization ("Consumer Protection Agency")? It's likely to be either the President and/or Congress. That makes it not free of politics especially with an administration, like the current one, which has a huge ax to grind. For example, this would be another avenue for putting pressure on Ford and foreign car manufacturers in order to protect government investment in GM and Chrysler.

      but I believe we have the right White House in place to set it up properly.

      Utter nonsense. Keep in mind that Obama's prostitution to media IP holders is part of the reason for this very Slashdot thread. If he weren't beholden to those interests (I presume he inherited that obligation from his Vice President, Biden), then ACTA would be hysterically discussed here. Why do you think, for example, that this agency will treat consumers of movies, music, and other media products fairly?

      I hate to say it, but I pine for the days of sex scandals in the White House. Clinton was deeply humiliating and a crook, but at least he was competent and effective, relative to what came afterward. And he gave a shit about fiscal responsibility and the future of the US.

    86. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Conflict of interest.

      It's their fucking jobs to do this kind of stuff, Moran.

    87. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by khallow · · Score: 1

      It's their fucking jobs to do this kind of stuff, Moran.

      I'm sure if you had thought about what I said and what you just said, you both wouldn't have written the above and you wouldn't be an idiot. Of course, it's their job to provide propaganda for the Obama administration with a pretense of objectivity. That falls comfortably in the realm of "conflict of interest".

    88. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by khallow · · Score: 1

      Those laws were put in place to prevent exactly those types of speculative markets which serve no greater purpose then to make a few people very wealthy.

      In other words, those laws were made for shitty reasons. In other words, FDR and company crippled the US in order to prevent a hypothetical "few people" from getting very wealthy.

      The idea that speculative markets drive economic activity is true only in the sense that hitting on a gas pedal will accelerate a vehicle. It is great if you want to just keep going faster but without something in place to slow you down, your going to crash.

      So what? Speculators serve a useful role in the economy. They attempt to predict the future. And crashes in themselves encourage speculators to slow down. The disease is the cure.

    89. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Fujisawa+Sensei · · Score: 1

      Ever hear of Laissez-faire?

      --
      If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
    90. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As somebody who works for the government, I take your comment as a personal insult.

      First of all, you shouldn't.

      Second of all, if you insist on doing so, then you also should be taking responsibility for everything the government does (or fails to do).

      the efficiency of the government is greater than private industry, thanks to the intense level of scrutiny we're put through.

      hahahahahaha

      I suppose you could find a few specific examples where that is true, and I know that I can find a huge pile of examples showing exactly the opposite. The only blanket statement anyone can make in regards to the efficiency of gov't vs. private sector is that you can't make any kind of sweeping generalization & have it hold true.

    91. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Tom · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why do we even have a government agency to put a damn energy star sticker on the side of an appliance? Simply make all manufacturers print the power draw of their item on the side of the package.

      Because if you leave it to the "free market" you are actually leaving it not to a market, but to marketing, which means the customer will be fucked in two dozen ways, at least five of which you never thought possible before. Among other things they will hide it in unreadable script, invent new metrics to cover up the true meaning, of course the numbers themselves will come from rigged "tests" and have a very distant relationship to reality, if at all. You will probably find tiny-print "this appliance uses 18 gublinks per ortung of energy" under a huge, green "environmentally friendly certified (by our own in-house bullshit institute" sticker.

      I'd rather have a government agency that fucks up, but at least it fucks up equally for everyone.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    92. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by superdave80 · · Score: 1

      "...something with an Energy Start sticker on it, it should be a reasonably efficient device."

      You didn't even bother to read the summary, did you?

      "Manufacturers need only submit photos and not actual examples of their products, and they submit their own efficiency ratings, which are not independently verified by the EPA."

      There is no requirement for the EPA to even check the product before they slap their precious sticker on it. So we've spent all this money for the energy star program, and it's no better than just telling the manufacturers to just print the power draw on the side of the package.

    93. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by superdave80 · · Score: 1

      "...of course the numbers themselves will come from rigged "tests"..."

      Good thing the EPA tests the device before they bless it with the energy star sticker. Oh, shit, that's right, they don't bother to check that the product even exists, let alone put it through a basic power test. How is the government program better than my suggestion again?

    94. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Tom · · Score: 2, Informative

      Because you picked out one part of my argument and found that in reality what should happen, doesn't (and hey wait, it was discovered by the government) does a) not invalidate the entire argument and b) does not show that government doesn't work. At least they're able to find the flaws in their own system. I fail to see how corporations are any better or worse in this respect.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    95. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by JimFive · · Score: 1

      If you get "shitty" service at a hospital, you can (drumroll please) GO TO A DIFFERENT HOSPITAL! Wotta concept.

      I just wanted to point out that it isn't quite that easy. A hospital is not a hotel. You can't just pick out a hospital, show up, and get a room. In order to get admitted to a hospital you have to find a doctor that has admitting privileges at that hospital and then convince em to admit you.

      If you are already in a hospital, getting transferred to a different hospital is usually not covered by your insurance policy and requires a huge amount of effort to get the current hospital to initiate a transfer (unless it is their idea). You have to do it as a transfer because of the whole finding someone to admit you problem (and if you self-discharge, you won't). -- JimFive

      --
      Please stop using the word theory when you mean hypothesis.
    96. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by superdave80 · · Score: 1

      "Because you picked out one part of my argument..."

      I didn't really see and 'arguments' in your post, just assumptions and guesses about what would happen if we forced companies to put the power usage on the product package.

      And I correctly pointed out that even your assumptions about how my idea (rigged tests by the companies, but no wasted tax money) is no worse than the reality of the government program (zero testing, yet still sucks up tax money). The only reason I picked that one part is because the rest of your post is just made up guesses. How do I argue with that? With my own made up guesses?

      "At least they're able to find the flaws in their own system."

      The fact that such an obvious flaw was standard procedure from day one troubles me. And finding flaws is easy. I'm more worried about whether or not anything will change. Given the track record of the government, I would be nothing (substantial) will change.

    97. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Tom · · Score: 1

      just assumptions and guesses about what would happen if we forced companies to put the power usage on the product package.

      Really? So, it's just assumptions, that they already fake the tests for energy consumption, by having specific "energy saving" modes that only activate under lab conditions? That store broke just a few days ago.

      Regarding many, many other labeling laws, we've seen them stretch them as far as possible. When they had to list ingredients, the started inventing the E-number to obscure most of the interesting ones. Weird package sizes serve no other purpose but to make price comparisons more difficult. All this stuff is on the record. It's not especially far-fetched to assume the same attitude would be applied here.

      The fact that such an obvious flaw was standard procedure from day one troubles me.

      We don't know if it was. All we know is that it is current in the system now. Procedures deteriorate over time, this may be one such case, or it may not. Right now, we don't know.

      Given the track record of the government, I would be nothing (substantial) will change.

      As I said: Not much better or worse than any multinational corporation. Exxon changed their name, but not their business methods. Governments can't change their name, so the impressions stay longer.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    98. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by dynamo52 · · Score: 1

      The problem with that as demonstrated by recent experience is that they aren't the only ones hurt by this activity. These repercussions have negative consequences throughout the economy. I have nothing against somebody becoming wealthy but not at the risk endangering the financial stability of the broader economy. What ever happened to earning money by providing a valuable product or service and doing so better or cheaper than the competition. As a business model that will stand the test of time AND grow the larger economy at the same time.

      --
      Like this comment? I accept Bitcoin! - 153sc8UUBXyp12ofQqfAWDmJrzyiKCYC1x
    99. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by khallow · · Score: 1

      The problem with that as demonstrated by recent experience is that they aren't the only ones hurt by this activity.

      That's because speculators aren't the only speculators. For example, businesses hired too much, homeowners bought too much house, and government provided too much credit.

    100. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Japan is rolling out Gigabit residential service, so yeah, 5 Mpbs is living in the dark ages. Hell, in Norway, which is even more rural than the U.S., you can get 26 Mpbs residential connections.

    101. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by haxor.dk · · Score: 1

      >Excuse me, how does deregulation have anything to do with SEC incompetency? The financial services industry in America is one of the most regulated industries in the world.

      Deregulation has nothing to do with it, but libertarians/free-marketers and their supposed nasty influence in the US halls of government is a easy dog to beat on, despite its non-existence (almost same non-existince that the people who put forward such silly notions demonstrate when their claims are challenged, as in this thread. Cue the tumbleweeds.).

    102. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by haxor.dk · · Score: 1

      >In USA you have small government, no taxes and (snip)

      The USA as a no-tax country, as you or others put forward, is a myth; the tax burden as a part of GDP is just under 30%, while in Europe, on average, is just over 40%.

      That you get screwed on healthcare and by telcos is true, but a different matter.

    103. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by haxor.dk · · Score: 1

      Comparing bandwidth is so much like a penis contest; Hong Kong has had Gigabit for 5 years or more; same with Korea.

      Enter price into the comparison, and you have an argument.

    104. Re:Never, ever, ever, ever trust the government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, sure.... let's twist the truth to suit you.

      The Libertarians have exactly HOW many people in political office right now? A major influence or driving force in American government, they're simply not ....

      IMHO, we've never truly even HAD a situation where "very little was regulated". What we usually get is some random "deregulation" in one area, while everything related stays under tight government control. Then when it fails, they turn around and say "See! The free market doesn't work!"

      Lazie-fare late 1860s to around 1900s.

  6. Just more proof by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Centralized control is not efficient nor effective.

    1. Re:Just more proof by sunspot42 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Except this isn't an example of either the efficiency or effectiveness of "centralized control". Centralized control would be if the government operated its own testing labs and certified itself whether products are Energy Star compliant or not. Instead, they're relying on the private sector producers of the products themselves to supply their own data, with entirely predictable results.

  7. More of that waste, fraud and abuse? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The government is the very definition of waste, fraud and abuse, not the answer to it.

  8. Taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    An Energy Star purchase can also get you some tax credits and rebates.

  9. Lawl. by cosm · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It is a sad state of affairs that our government has to set up a separate agency to analyze the (in)efficiency of a government organization that is setup to analyze the (in)efficiencys of other organizations. The U.S government is becoming a conglomerate of Department of Redundancy Departments, whose productivity is measured in how much money is thrown down the chasm. Glad to see my tax dollars at work.

    --
    'We are trying to prove ourselves wrong as quickly as possible, because only in that way can we find progress.' RPF
    1. Re:Lawl. by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      Only sad in that non-governmental citizens aren't really free to do the same thing -- for them it would be "fraud" once they made their findings public.

    2. Re:Lawl. by moosesocks · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Pretty much every company bigger than 10-20 employees has some sort of auditing system in place. Auditing is a good practice, and catches things such as this -- the only difference with the government is that audits are made public.

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    3. Re:Lawl. by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      Unless you have an organization that is stellar in its honesty and efficiency, or auditors that really suck at both, it is routine for auditors to save substantially more money than they cost.

      Would you prefer that the government adopt a "see no evil" approach to auditing its operations?

    4. Re:Lawl. by superdave80 · · Score: 1

      I don't mind that one government agency is checking up on another. My big question (that I already know the answer to) is: What will happen to those people who let these bogus products get through the system?

      ***spoiler alert***
      answer: nothing

      So what is the point of checking on them if no one is fired/jailed?

    5. Re:Lawl. by cosm · · Score: 1

      Expectedly, my post was misinterpreted, to clarify they attempted point:
      Energy Star is supposed to certify products with 'good' energy efficiencies.
      They were audited by an organization that analyzes organizational efficiencies.
      Energy Star was efficient in terms of being able to certify many products, but from the audit standpoint, they are not an exercising the quality of a should-be efficiently organization.

      I-R-O-N-Y.

      Plus, if they were to adopt a see-no-evil approach, instead of eliminating audits, they would create another organization to build walls of bureaucracy and red tape to mask the operations of the other inefficient organizations. Oh wait...

      --
      'We are trying to prove ourselves wrong as quickly as possible, because only in that way can we find progress.' RPF
    6. Re:Lawl. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless you have an organization that is stellar in its honesty and efficiency, or auditors that really suck at both, it is routine for auditors to save substantially more money than they cost.

      Would you prefer that the government adopt a "see no evil" approach to auditing its operations?

      I've never seen auditors save money. Anderson audits Enron, and turns a blind eye.
      Fast forward a few years, and the same thing happened with Leahman and credit default swaps, and causes the largest recession in 75 years. Google "Reop 105". Where were the vaunted auditors who missed billions?

      Private auditors are beholden to their client as they are literally paying the bills. Having gone through many audits, the time required for staff to comply and research auditors questions for SOX and annual audits is never disclosed or calculated. Its a charade dressed as good business.

    7. Re:Lawl. by repetty · · Score: 1

      > It is a sad state of affairs that our government has to set up
      > a separate agency to analyze the (in)efficiency of a government
      > organization that is setup to analyze the (in)efficiencys of other
      > organizations.

      You aren't being fair. If they hadn't done it, you'd be one of the guys criticizing the government for not monitoring their activities.

      Which is it going to be?

      BTW, in my opinion, a separate agency is probably the best way to do this. Think about these words: intimidation, collusion.

    8. Re:Lawl. by Phroggy · · Score: 1

      If the GAO never found any problems like this, then I'd call them redundant, sure.

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
  10. Gas-Powered Alarm Clock by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Spartan Digital Electronics is proud to announce its latest line of home electronics. The gas-powered Black-Gold model clock radio is sleek, durable, easy on your electric bill and surprisingly quiet. The newly Energy Star-qualified product is safe for indoor use and easy on the environment. This product approximates the size of a small portable generator for increased ease while traveling."

    1. Re:Gas-Powered Alarm Clock by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      This reminds me of something I saw in either Sky-Mall or Sharper Image or some trendy store like that. A device that used electricity to separate hydrogen and oxygen, and then burned the result hydrogen and oxygen to produce heat and then claimed it was more efficient than an electric heater. Ye gods!

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
  11. Stop flying off the deep end. by jbn-o · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Of course the GAO is a government office, so if I'm not supposed to trust the government...

    I'd rather not throw the baby out with the bathwater. I can think of plenty of places where the government is trustworthy: I trust them to bend over for corporate power in a heartbeat. Corporations no doubt benefit from a sham stamp of approval like "Energy Star" to help sell products. Private organizations do plenty of harm (Dow Chemical and Bhopal, war profiteering, financing campaigns that weaken consumer protections, the movie "The Corporation" is filled with more examples) and that harm is (by design) beyond any democratic relief or judicial oversight; we don't need more of that. On issues of life and death, war and peace, it's clear that the US government is plenty willing to keep wars, banks, and now HMOs financed with taxpayer dollars while its citizens suffer; plenty of examples of government-corporate working against the people. People need to fix this not think government is something to throw away. The power of government can be turned to benefit its people.

    1. Re:Stop flying off the deep end. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think you're both right.

      The fix might not be to throw the government away, but it may be to throw *this* government away. The whole notion that people can keep playing "games as usual" is a bit problematic. There is no way to lawfully force a collective "vote of no confidence" in the entire executive branch and fire *all of them* at once and immediately have new elections. Every two years we can at most turn over about half the system--and that lets the last batch of people get corrupted and gain seniority and get broken in.

      But I think that's exactly what it would take to get rid of "business as usual". Most of the laws are good--but the people working on them..not so much.

      I honestly do believe that a *mass* firing of most of the political branches would send a nice little shockwave through things and possibly get us some meaningful progress again. It'd also be nice to start at organisations that are inefficient and ran by...well...asshole workers. A mass firing at a couple of state DMV's and post offices would probably do wonders for *public* morale for example, even if it would seriously disrupt daily life for a bit.

    2. Re:Stop flying off the deep end. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then the answer is revolution. It will come, because it always does. So the question becomes: When? How bad do things have to get before people are willing to shed blood? And how come we can't come up with a way to do it without shedding blood? Government should have an expiration date where everything must be redesigned. And anyone who held a role of any sort in the previous government is barred from contributing. Of course, to enforce that you'd have to kill them (in reality) so it still wouldn't be blood-free (unless you do it with smotherings and use a literal meaning of bloody I guess). My guess is things will have to get much worse before people take up arms. It may not even occur within my lifetime (I'm not 100% sure if that's a good or a bad thing yet).

    3. Re:Stop flying off the deep end. by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 1

      There is no way to lawfully force a collective "vote of no confidence" in the entire executive branch and fire *all of them* at once and immediately have new elections. Every two years we can at most turn over about half the system--and that lets the last batch of people get corrupted and gain seniority and get broken in.

      If you're in that seat today you're gone. I don't care who you are. Demonstrably, you have failed. Let's try someone new.
      Repeat in 2 years.
      Granted, the 2-4-6 year crossover will corrupt some. But they will get it eventually.

      If you are in that seat today, you are gone. Period. No excuses.

    4. Re:Stop flying off the deep end. by drinkypoo · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      People need to fix this not think government is something to throw away. The power of government can be turned to benefit its people.

      It might actually be easier to throw away this government and create another one than to try to fix everything that's wrong with this one. But since enough of us can't even agree what goes on the "wrong" list to do anything concerted, our corporate masters will continue boning us.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:Stop flying off the deep end. by dynamo52 · · Score: 1

      The problem with your theory is that the people who will likely revolt in this country are the libertarian right which would only exacerbate the problem. If you think these types of corporate abuses are bad when the government is in the pockets of industry just wait until there really is no government to speak of.

      The only way this is really going to be fixed is for the well reasoned majority that elected Obama to rally and keep Democrats in control so at least no more ground is lost. Hopefully then, the left can keep up the pressure to push an amendment allowing congress to regulate corporate funding of campaigns and hopefully eliminate the ridiculous idea of corporate personhood once and for all. Then, they would have to actually do so. This is no easy task as Democrats are feeding at the same trough but due to the nature of the coalition and with Obama at the helm, they are much more likely to address these issues. If, and only if, those things happened then maybe ten or twenty years down the road you could start talking about the real types of electoral reforms that could make a difference. It isn't an easy fix and corporations will fight every step of the way but if the Democrats stopped pandering to the right and simply stood up for their principles I believe it can happen.

      --
      Like this comment? I accept Bitcoin! - 153sc8UUBXyp12ofQqfAWDmJrzyiKCYC1x
    6. Re:Stop flying off the deep end. by luther349 · · Score: 0

      things changed alot then in the past. people would revolt for far less reasons then now. the english revolted over a tea tax and the usa was born after they killed off the natives. we had a civil war over slavery. but look at us now we are taxed for everything and the ritch corps walk all over the poor yet people just take it. you are right in saying not in are lifetimes the freedom fighters and cold blooded killers of the past just dont exest anymore. and when it does happon as you said it will someday its going to be far worse then a civil war. when the people do take up arms and take out are government to rid the corruption and rebuild its going to start world war 3. i say that because other country's will get involved to try and stop the people from taring down the same government thats always funneling money to other country's. but i may be wrong in saying not in are lifetimes. i have a bad felling after are economy finely implodes on its self thats going to piss enough people off due to the fact are government failed them.

    7. Re:Stop flying off the deep end. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We Libertarians aren't on the right! It's simple, personal freedom and individual responsibility on all issues all the time (doesn't sound right-wing to me).

      Maybe you should learn what right and left really are: http://www.theadvocates.org/quizp/index.html

    8. Re:Stop flying off the deep end. by dynamo52 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      While I agree that libertarianism philosophy isn't in and of itself a left or right wing philosophy (I would consider myself to be a social libertarian), the vast majority of libertarians in this country are strongly anti-tax, small government types who respond strongly to the rhetoric the right has been putting forth. The problem is that the right are in truth controlled by corporatists who have spent millions of dollars to co-opt that message to their benefit while in truth limiting peoples avenues of recourse when they are wronged by corporate misdeeds. My opinion is that the best protector of individual liberties is an effective government properly overseen by informed voters.

      --
      Like this comment? I accept Bitcoin! - 153sc8UUBXyp12ofQqfAWDmJrzyiKCYC1x
  12. The question is, by mobby_6kl · · Score: 4, Funny

    Where the hell can I buy the gasoline powered alarm clock? That's an awesome idea and I don't care how many energy stars it gets, I just want it right now.

    1. Re:The question is, by maxume · · Score: 1

      If price is no object, I am willing to deliver one in a month or two.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    2. Re:The question is, by dynamo52 · · Score: 1

      I am with you on that one. I want to see the five products that didn't get accepted. They must be AWESOME!

      --
      Like this comment? I accept Bitcoin! - 153sc8UUBXyp12ofQqfAWDmJrzyiKCYC1x
    3. Re:The question is, by taustin · · Score: 1

      It would take you that long to duct tape an electric alarm clock to a generator and plug it in?

      I guarantee shipment within 24 hours of the check clearing the bank.

    4. Re:The question is, by mobby_6kl · · Score: 1

      No, strapping an electric alarm clock to a generator (even a gas turbine one) is not going to do it, because
      a)I can do that myself and
      b)If you think about it this way, I already have a nuclear powered clock!

      No. What I'm think is something that is directly driven by the gas engine, like the steam clock, but updated for the 21 century.

    5. Re:The question is, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Comes with free cancer causing fumes.

    6. Re:The question is, by haxor.dk · · Score: 1

      One free with every SUV bought!

  13. Cool! by Un+pobre+guey · · Score: 2, Funny

    Now I can get an Energy Star rating for my line of fusion energy powered penis implants and Clean Coal powered lawn mowers.

    1. Re:Cool! by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      But I want a dirty coal lawn mower penis implant / knife-wrench! I like hot and steamy and dirty! ;)

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
  14. Lazy naming is the same as inspired naming by VocationalZero · · Score: 1

    "Whats that? We still need another fake company name? Crap. What was that movie you just bought on Blu-ray, Bob?"
    Bob: "Uhh.. Tropic Thunder?"
    "Tropical Thunder Appliances it is then!"

  15. Timing is everything ... by godel_56 · · Score: 1

    If only the GAO had thought to hold back the report a few more days, they could have released it on April 1.

  16. heh! gas powered clock by FudRucker · · Score: 1

    everyone knows those gasoline powered alarm clocks are no good, i always go for the diesel powered alarm clocks the work much better, i tried the nitro-methane clock but it would blow a gasket every time it updated to NTP

    --
    Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
    1. Re:heh! gas powered clock by jgreco · · Score: 1

      The diesel model suffered from wet stacking.

    2. Re:heh! gas powered clock by Barny · · Score: 1

      There's talk of a new coal/steam hybrid alarm clock that could leave all these for dead, its both more efficient (per ton of fossil fuels needed to run per hour) and it has a 100% wake up rate, even among the deaf! (heat generated by the device exceeds that of a reasonably comfortable oven).

      Now our engineers are working on the next version, a fusion based alarm clock, it uses a lot less raw materiel than ANY similar units and has the added benefit of a small nigh light you can read by!

      --
      ...
      /me sighs
    3. Re:heh! gas powered clock by Black+Gold+Alchemist · · Score: 1

      I'd prefer a zinc-air fuel cell alarm clock.

      --
      Responsibility is an addiction
      Virtue is a temptation
      Community is a cartel
  17. For a sticker? by LoudMusic · · Score: 1

    I've just been printing my own EnergyStar stickers. Why waste time with bogus product tests?

    --
    No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
  18. One benefit of those stupid stickers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    is it reminds consumers that conserving energy is a good idea in general. Computer monitor has fraudulent sticker because its power consumption is too high to be eligible for certification, but seeing the sticker all the time gets me to drive the car less often. Result is net energy savings.

    Obviously the above is not an excuse for false certification, but if done a bit differently and more honestly, could amount to an ad campaign for conservation, not necessarily a bad thing.

  19. Re:Tropical Thunder Appliances? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Clearly, the EPA has made the mistake of going "full retard" here.

  20. Wait, what? by dangitman · · Score: 1

    In addition, four fictional manufacturers run by fake people

    How can fake people run a company? I'd seriously like to know, because it could save my company a lot of money in labor costs, if I could get non-existent people to do the work.

    --
    ... and then they built the supercollider.
    1. Re:Wait, what? by thtrgremlin · · Score: 1

      Hi, my name is Bob shitswhenhewalks. I hear you have a job opening?

      --
      Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
  21. if i could curse (here) I would by Sagelinka · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    There is no reason why that should be allowed and Marijuana be illegal. To completely different things but both impact America so much. Why is this ENERGY STAR???

  22. root of the problem: government run by tomohawk · · Score: 1

    Like many things run by the government, there's probably more incentive to do the job poorly than well. Giving a company or a product a pass probably requires less justification and hassle than turning one down.

  23. You must be very nimble by zippthorne · · Score: 2, Insightful

    To blow smoke up your own ass like that.

    Of course you don't think you're being efficient. You can only see your small piece of the puzzle. Just because your'e not loafing and your co-workers appear to be doing the same doesn't mean that you're actually efficient about whatever it is your agency is supposed to be responsible for. And that doesn't even get into the possibility that you could be very efficiently accomplishing tasks that themselves are not actually beneficial to society.

    Never underestimate the ability for a bureaucracy to appear busy, no matter how any resources it wastes. The reason people focus on government inefficiency more than corporate inefficiency (other than the obvious size difference) is that you can end your relationship with any corporation at will, whereas government has the ability to compel you under threat of life and limb, to continue to comply. You can't simply "do without" government services, the only way dissolve your involuntary obligation is emigration.

    --
    Can you be Even More Awesome?!
  24. That scrapping sound you hear ... by PPH · · Score: 1

    ... is the sound of thousands of spurned perpetual motion machine inventors dragging their creations out of the closet for their Energy Star photo op.

    "Hey hon'. Have you seen my two hundred mile per gallon carburetor prototype anywhere?"
    "You weren't using it dear. And it makes a beatiful flower pot."

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  25. UL never had this issue. by cluge · · Score: 1

    This is another well documented case of where government, especially big government fails (no matter how well intentioned). I'd urge readers to do some research on underwriters laboratories. A UL listing is de-rigeur for anything in new construction and has been for decades, yet UL certification is voluntary and the testing and listing of certified products is undertaken by a totally private entity. From the UL web site "Underwriters Laboratories® is an independent product safety certification organization that has been testing products and writing standards for safety for more than a century. UL evaluates more than 19,000 types of products, components, materials and systems annually with 20 billion UL Marks appearing on 66,000 manufacturers' products each year. UL's worldwide family of companies and network of service providers includes 68 laboratory, testing and certification facilities serving customers in 102 countries." Energy Star Compliance should be handled by UL, not the EPA. Considering recent scandals the EPA simply isn't credible and this is but one more example.

    --
    "Science is about ego as much as it is about discovery and truth " - I said it, so sue me.
  26. Regulatory capture refinement by Gorimek · · Score: 2, Informative

    One of the main mechanisms in "Regulatory capture" is that in order to have competent regulators, they must be hired from the same skill pool as the people working in the industry.

    So the main career path for those working at the watchdog agency is to work for one of the companies they're overseeing, or less commonly, the other direction. This will at least breed an atmosphere of "being on the same team", and also gives strong incentives to outright corruption.

    1. Re:Regulatory capture refinement by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sometimes both directions. It isn't called the "revolving door" for nothing...

  27. gasoline alarm clock by gomatt · · Score: 5, Funny

    i had a friend with a gasoline powered alarm clock. he started it up when we went to sleep. guess its no good, because no matter how loud it was, he never woke up.

  28. Computers and Energy Star Label by jobst · · Score: 1

    I never understood how and why there is an energy star label on a computer ..... when you shut it down (and do not turn off the power at the powerpoint) it still uses power?

    --
    to code or not to code, that is the question.
  29. The other problem is big things get certified by presidenteloco · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So let's say there's two of us and we only need a 12 CU FT refrigerator, but I like beer a lot so I buy a 26 CU FT Energy Star fridge.

    The standard tells me I did a good thing, but I know, deep inside, that I'm being an environmental bonehead.

    I just bought the hybrid humvee of refrigerators, and I got a gold star for it.

    --

    Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
    1. Re:The other problem is big things get certified by TheStonepedo · · Score: 1

      That was very well-written.

      --
      I'll be your candy shop of infinite deliciousity if you'll be my discotheque of endless rump-shaking.
  30. Last I checked... by BillX · · Score: 1

    ...it was not the EPA's job to evaluate the legitimacy of companies and their legitimacy-proving paperworks (DBA filings, articles of incorporation, etc.), nor make value judgments on the market demand for their products. We already have other government offices for that. Sounds like they grant Energy Star certs on a "self-report and spot-check" basis, which is unfortunate, but not at all uncommon (think GSA, many FCC certified device classes, the Census, your income tax...). If the GAO or those reporting on this are of the belief (as maybe they should be) that self-reporting is not the way to go, they probably need to change the rules to require testing by independent labs, as the FCC does with intentional radiators (radios). Focusing on the fact that they approved "illegitimate companies" or laughable products seems to be missing the point.

    (For what it's worth, the "ordinary space heater with a featherduster attached" didn't seem much further out there than some ACTUAL, marketed products in this segment. There are plenty of shady companies out there happy to separate fools from their money, but again, it's the FTC, not the EPA, who is in charge of cracking down on them.)

    --
    Caveat Emptor is not a business model.
  31. Outrageous! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, I certainly hope someone goes to jail for this!
    The designer of those websites, for a start. And I think the developers of this "SiteSpinner" tool are due for at the very least some heavy questioning, as well.

  32. wow! Nicely done! by CFD339 · · Score: 4, Informative

    I'm a firefighter and I've seen these guys work. They sent someone out to test our 75 foot ladder -- and the guy spent two days with magnets, iron dust, and a damn magnifying glass going over every single inch of the metal -- he found half a dozen micro stress cracks, marked them, and we were able to have them welded and re-checked.

    --
    The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
  33. Re:wow! Nicely done! by digitalunity · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I don't work for UL anymore, so I obviously do not speak for them, but I've seen their ladder testing and it's pretty neat.

    My girlfriend still works for UL and regularly performs UL/NFPA 1901 inspections on new fire trucks as well and it's truly fascinating(to me anyway) to hear about how rigorously new fire trucks are tested.

    --
    You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
  34. Violent monopoly (aka "government") ALWAYS fails by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sure, even a stopped (analog) clock is right twice a day, but a government programs are, by their nature, inherently corrupt, overpriced, unscientific, and dangerous to your and especially your children's freedoms. Only free competition of ideas (i.e. science / free market capitalism) can assure optimal results. Without the government regulation mafia jumping in front of every parade the marketplace emergence would naturally lead to multiple competing certification authorities, consumer interest publications, feedback sites, corporate "karma" wikis, etc, etc, etc - all keeping an eye on each-other (i.e. web of trust) without a single point of failure. Given enough eyeballs, all corruption is shallow!

    (Signed: Alex Libman's sock-puppet.)

  35. Just mandate power draw numbers on the box by jonwil · · Score: 1

    My fridge/freezer has a "star rating" label on it. This label says it draws 524Kwh per year under a specific set of test conditions and that it has a 2.5 star rating out of a possible 6 (more stars mean more energy efficient).
    All fridges and freezers are tested to the same standard and are all given the same label (its required by law). Washing machines and clothes dryers also have these ratings as do air conditioners and other things.

    Unlike Energy Star, its an actual rating of how energy efficient the device is. The consumers can choose to buy the one with more stars or the one with less stars. If the manufacturers game the system and bribe the testing agency (as would happen if this system was adopted in the US), it wont make a difference because everyone will be doing it therefore the "device A is more efficient than device B" information will be preserved.

    I just wish they would extend the Star Ratings to the things they dont currently appear on like TV sets, computers and computer hardware, stereo systems, set top boxes, DVD/blu-ray players, PVRs, home theater, games consoles, electric fans and heaters, electric hot water heaters, electric ovens and cookers and vacuum cleaners.

  36. FDA works the same way by digitalcowboy · · Score: 1

    Why do you suppose that the FDA "recalls" so many drugs after thousands have died and the scumbag lawyers run national commercials asking if you've ever taken [x] drug? Ever seen an FDA test lab? Me either. Ask around. Maybe someone will claim they have.

    Wanna solve the health care problem... and every other problem in this country?

    Get the feckless retards that are government the hell out of everything!

    Government does nothing well and most of what it does today is unConstitutional for just that reason. The Founders were smarter than the last few generations.

    If you trust government -for ANYTHING, you deserve what you get: slavery at best.

  37. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  38. lumen measurements by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    lumen measurements are done with an integrating sphere:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrating_sphere

  39. Refrigerator energy use - supports status quo by beachdog · · Score: 1

    I have a refrigerator that I tested with a KillAWatt energy usage meter. The refrigerator came in at about 2x the energy usage of current models.

    I decided to find out why it was so bad: Is the energy usage due to poor insulation, leaky doors, too many door opening events or a worn out compressor?

    I eliminated "poor insulation" by scabbing a 2 foot x 4 foot piece of 2" foam onto one refrigerator wall and measuring the the "delta T" between the inside, outside and between the insulation and the cabinet. Some algebra with the surface area of the refrigerator convinced me the original insulation is excellent.

    While programming an Arduino to measure how often and long the doors are open, a fellow from England mentioned his new refrigerator is really efficient because it has inner doors that prevent cold air from falling out when the door is opened.

    This much work has persuaded me that Energy Star is a fraud because the testing standard for refrigerators probably does not measure the effect of opening the doors during the test.

    Also, there is no direct email on the Department of Commerce web site to contact a technical specialist and get a clear explanation.

    The path to reading the ASTM refrigerator energy consumption test description is encumbered. The test description is apparently not available for free public reading.

  40. Read the user manual before use! by freaker_TuC · · Score: 1

    It will explode if you don't turn it off after 3 snoozes.

    It's energy star is valued on the force of explosion.

    Probably efficient to wake up an entire neighbourhood

    --
    --- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
  41. Who audits the auditors ? by freaker_TuC · · Score: 1

    So, I wonder who is auditing the auditors?

    --
    --- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
    1. Re:Who audits the auditors ? by nacturation · · Score: 1

      So, I wonder who is auditing the auditors?

      It's turtles all the way down.

      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    2. Re:Who audits the auditors ? by freaker_TuC · · Score: 1

      aww, I was expecting clustered monkeys (no, I was not even mentioning beo in it) ...

      --
      --- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
  42. Why they not making one for the USPTO ? by freaker_TuC · · Score: 1

    Maybe time for the government to create a Patent Accountability Office to get rid of ridicilous requests.

    --
    --- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
  43. Not Energy-Star friendly for babies .. by freaker_TuC · · Score: 1

    I'd rather not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    That's ok, doing so would screw the energy star of the baby anyway...

    --
    --- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
  44. Now apply this problem to healthcare... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just another example of how ineffective our large bureaucratic government is. Fraud, waste, and abuse. Every problem can be solved with more money and people right? Ugh.... Why can't we have a RIF amongst our government employees?

  45. No problem here by Jeff-reyy · · Score: 1

    Companies which submit false information will be driven out of business by the natural splendor of the free market.

  46. GAO rocks!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The GAO has got to be one of the best compartments of US government in all of recorded history. I'm continued to be awestricken and amazed at the number and quality of investigations and fact checking of government undertaken by this organization. Its one of those things that you just don't intuitively believe can really be possible.

  47. you must have no self-awareness by Uberbah · · Score: 1

    ...to project like that. Your entire rant could apply just as much to you, and whatever job you do, wherever and whatever it is.

    1. Re:you must have no self-awareness by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Yes, it could. But I'm not the one making the claim that my company is efficient on the basis that I'm not loafing.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
  48. Re:wow! Nicely done! by CubicleView · · Score: 1

    I guess it wouldn't work for ladders for whatever reason, but testing aluminium joins etc for airplanes is much easier. you cover it in red dye, clean it off and then spray a white power onto the metal. It soaks up dye from the cracks in the metal highlighting the defects too small to see otherwise.

  49. Did you open that Box of ear AIDS I sent you? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Or do I have to answer the question for you, fag?

  50. Fine them & remove all their certificates by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 1

    The sheer volume of applicants makes it infeasible for a single bureaucracy to effectively test physical hardware.

    Certainly, but there should at least be spot checks and the possibility of fining manufacturers, if consumers report inconsistencies. I would go even further, that if a manufacturer has been caught intentionally publishing incorrect data, multiple times, then they should lose all their energy star badges and then have to pay an Energy Star certified lab to prove their products are complaint.

    You can test you appliances with devices such as 'Kill-A-Watt'. Maybe its even time that a web site was put together where people can list what readings they were getting during different activities?

    --
    Jumpstart the tartan drive.
  51. Re:wow! Nicely done! by CFD339 · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure what would work, only what I saw done. I will say that they were not just testing "joints" they tested every inch of that 75' ladder, finding the smallest little stress cracks you can imagine -- long before they had a chance to become safety issues.

    --
    The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln